← Tom Bilyeu's Impact Theory
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- [00:00]
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- [00:45]
Tom Bilyeu
Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Relationship Theory. I'm your co host Tom Bilyeu and I am here with my beloved wife Lisa, who I just got to spend time with in New York. So much fun. So we're coming fresh off some real relationship together time. We do amazing. Yeah, amazing.
- [01:03]
Lisa Bilyeu
Baby, what's up? All right, I got an ice an Instagram shout out a word from our at Nanoyoga. So at Nanoyoga.
- [01:13]
Tom Bilyeu
Nano.
- [01:14]
Lisa Bilyeu
Nano. Yep. Nano Yoga. So thank you for doing a shout out for Relationship Theory and itunes. Review of the week is from Nate Schiffman. From my girlfriend and I, both 26 and have been listening to all of your stuff for six to nine months. We want to personally thank you for sharing these deep level conversations. You are both insanely high level with your communication delivery and open mindedness and it is rare to hear it and it is rare to hear it played out in real life. This is some advice class. This is some advanced class. We've had multiple conversations about very real stuff, marriage, insecurities, ambitions, goals, etc and our level of communication is unlike anything I've ever experienced. We are both improving so much thanks to you guys. P.S. lee says Sarah is a huge fan girl. Hopefully someday we'll be able to thank you both in person. What up Sarah?
- [02:11]
Tom Bilyeu
That's amazing.
- [02:12]
Lisa Bilyeu
I know. That's so cool. Thank you for that's such a lovely review. And so yeah guys, we're doing weekly itunes review shout outs. So if you have some lovely things to say about us or even if you have horrible things, actually if you
- [02:25]
Tom Bilyeu
have horrible things you can say them directly to us. But if you have lovely things, I will say that when you go. Yeah. To leave the review.
- [02:32]
Lisa Bilyeu
Yeah. And then also if you guys have any questions we do answer them on the show. You are welcome to Stay anonymous if you like, but any questions, please email them at 2or. Sorry to connectpact theory.com Indeed. Bam.
- [02:48]
Tom Bilyeu
There it is.
- [02:49]
Lisa Bilyeu
Get to the first question.
- [02:50]
Tom Bilyeu
Let's do it right away.
- [02:51]
Lisa Bilyeu
All right. This is from Ruth Tejada. Lisa, being the badass that you are. Thank you. How do you handle the double standard of men for us women in the workspace? If we are. If we are boss, then we are mean. If we are kind, we are flirting. Same goes with relationships. Strong men feel intimidated sometimes. How do. How to respond without compromising. Being a badass. Here's the thing. I think that I'm going to say something a little controversial right now.
- [03:21]
Tom Bilyeu
Let's do it.
- [03:22]
Lisa Bilyeu
Let's do it.
- [03:22]
Tom Bilyeu
As long as it's true.
- [03:24]
Lisa Bilyeu
I don't think a strong man can be intimidated. I think that somebody acting like a strong man. Go on, because. So let's take me and you, for example.
- [03:36]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah.
- [03:37]
Lisa Bilyeu
You've done nothing but encourage me, even if it means that I'm less attentive to you as a wife. When you see that I'm happy or doing something that really means something to me, you encourage me. And there's no insecurity. And I remember, in fact, let's go back when I first started my first podcast, Heroic, a year and a half ago. I started it with Cassie Ho, very big influence. And there was a moment where I was actually worried that I would become. I would get bigger than you. And I remember thinking, like, how do I bring this up to him? Because I don't want to worry about. It's actually not fair on me. I'm busting my ass. The goal is to be, you know, really big and get the podcast to be massive. And I don't want to have to worry about if I'm passing you or not. But at the same time, as the wife, I need to be sensitive to my husband's emotions and feelings. So I remember, like, I went to approach it once, and you were like, wait, before you say anything, I just want you to know there's nothing that would make me happier than for you to crush it. If that means that you're bigger than me, then so be it. And that is a strong man. That even, like, I'm not saying that you don't have insecurities. I think everybody does. But you didn't let that dictate how much or how successful I could possibly get in that encouragement behind it.
- [04:55]
Tom Bilyeu
Thank you. That's amazing. It's very kind. And now I will say, I think you're out of your mind and if you go backwards, even farther. So, first of all, I think we're all infinitely complicated. I think that on any, like, one area, maybe we're really strong and really confident here and really weak and really insecure over here. And it is like this infinitely complicated thing of like a thousand different traits that we all have. And we rank in different ways on different traits at different times. And you could be going through something really rough and be insecure about something that you're normally very confident about. So when you said, let's go back, I thought you were going to go back to when you first started at Quest and you were now all of a sudden on the founding team and you were really stepping into your own as an entrepreneur, and as you were building up your department, you were really having to toughen up and think about yourself and put yourself first for the first time in our relationship. And I almost had a panic attack. I was like, what is happening? I used to have somebody setting up my clothes and making all my meals, and this isn't what I signed up for. And, like, she's becoming, like, this full blown entrepreneur and becoming very hardened, is
- [06:03]
Lisa Bilyeu
what you say at the time.
- [06:04]
Tom Bilyeu
Hardened, definitely tougher. Like a level of aggression that you'd never had. And I was like, wait a fucking minute. And then I remember, like, really trying to process through that and thinking, all right, I need to talk about this. It doesn't. It wasn't feeling great. It was a hard transition for me to make. And I remember thinking, well, follow. Follow this through and really ask yourself, what are you asking her to do? Are you asking her to be less strong? Are you asking her to be less of who she wants to become? Are you asking her to play a smaller game? I was like, because, motherfucker, if that's what you're thinking, that is so gross. And so outside of who I want to be, like, I want to be the person who, like, is so encouraging and doesn't give a shit if you're bigger than me, if you're more successful than me. Like, I need to be playing all out at my game and trying to win, but never at the expense of you. Never asking you to slow down. You know me, I have an absolute personal disgust for people who say, slow down so I can lead. Like, there are few things that make my skin crawl more than that. And so I thought if there is even, like, the smallest tinge of that in my personality, I need to process through it and get rid of that. Like, e fucking mediately And I posted recently on Instagram, I said, you need to think. How does the person I want to become act and start acting like that? And that was one of those moments where I had to think like the idealized version of myself. How would they handle this situation? They would be insanely encouraging. They would want to help their significant other become as great as they could possibly become. Whatever direction that goes in, however, that becomes for them to become the vision of who they see themselves being like, to help them with that and to be like the person that when they're up giving their speech, whatever speech that is, and saying like, yo, I couldn't have done this without that person. Like, to want for that. Not to want to be in pole position, not to somehow think that because we have an alpha beta dynamic in our relationship, the way we define that, the way that wolves do it, all that, like, we've talked about that before, like that. That doesn't mean that's the way it's going to be forever. And even if that is the way that it's going to be forever, that I have to earn that status by being the right person to be in the leadership role. And so I had to work through that. And I think that to say anything less one is to lie, because I am just not that good at, you know, always getting things right. That my thing is I'm the learner. I don't value myself for being right or I don't value myself for not having insecurities. I have insecurities. What I value myself for is I fucking deal with them. And so I'm so stoked. And I think one of the things that makes me confident in my ability to continue to grow and all that is that I've had to process through these things that did not come easily or naturally for me. And so when that moment happened, it was very difficult for me and I had to find my way through that. Now I found my way through, and I'm so grateful that I made it quickly enough through that and gracefully enough through that that what you remember is just me on the other side and being encouraging and supportive. And by the time we got to the Cherokee moment where you were starting your own podcast, I had so made it a part of my identity to want you to win at everything that you do, that it wasn't hard for me. Like, I was so excited for you to, like, crush it. And it is very easy for me to see a world in which on a long enough timeline like that, you dwarf me. I think that you have a crazy niche audience that you speak to insanely powerfully. So I still see that as a very potential reality. And I know emotionally for me, that would be exciting. But seven or eight years ago, that was not the case.
- [09:59]
Lisa Bilyeu
But here's the thing. The reason why I really have that in my head is you still, even as you were talking about it, with the struggles where you had to really think about it, you had to figure it out. You never once tried to knock me down or keeping me down. You were very vocal about the emotion, that emotional struggle you were going through. And I hope that people listening, it's very important to understand. It's like you may not be where you want to be with your partner right now, but the fact that you were very open and honest about what you were feeling allowed us to really communicate and go through that together.
- [10:33]
Tom Bilyeu
And I told you where I knew I wanted to get, and I was like, look, I'm going to get on the other side of this. I'm going to be your biggest cheerleader. I'm going to support you in this. I want you to become. I remember saying the words to you. To want anything other than for you to become the best version of yourself would be disgusting to me. And I will not let that linger in my personality, my thoughts, my anything. So I am going to get on the other side of this. And I don't remember if I use these exact words. If I were to re. Say it today, and I think I actually did say this, like, give me the grace to get through this. Like, I will get on the other side. Show me that kindness. Show me that, the grace. Like, I mean that in, like, the almost religious way. Like, show me that. Give me that space to process through this. And you did. And because I didn't, like, you didn't judge me for having an insecurity. You didn't judge me for being petty. You didn't judge me for any of that. You gave me the space that I needed to talk about it openly. You gave me the time to get through it, get to the other side. And to which for me was really, it was the alignment of I know who I want to be, and I just need my internal emotions to line up with that. And I've talked so much about the process of doing that. For now, I'll just say there is a process which you can go through which will every time result in your emotions lining up with what you. The identity you want to have, the person you want to become. And so I did that. It went relatively Quickly and pretty seamlessly. But I want, and now I want to actually get to her question because she's saying that when a woman, and I'll use slightly different words, when a woman is assertive, she's read as bitchy. That is 100% true. And how can she be a badass and step into that and not constantly have to fight against that? And I will say from my perspective, and then obviously you can give the female perspective, but from my perspective, the very simple solution is at all times, get good and get so good they can't ignore you. Is it going to be harder for you because you're a woman? Yes, a thousand percent. And do not waste one fucking second bemoaning that worrying about it. It just is. It's a reality. But you can get on the other side of that. And if you don't waste time complaining or anything, then people are just going to realize, holy shit, like, this person performs. They're good. And if on top of, like, if I were a woman and I like, I'll even make it about me. So as a guy, I happen to have a certain facial structure. I have horrific resting bitch face. So I just know that for people to feel what I actually feel inside for them, that I have to smile more. I have to, like, really, like, make a concentrated effort to embody the empathy, the compassion, the warmth and all of that. So it's like, as a woman, yes, you're going to be perceived in a different way. You need to address your behaviors and all of that to come across the way that you want to come across. That does not mean kowtow. That does not mean back off or speak less strongly or forcefully when you have an idea. But it does mean deal with the world the way that it is, not the way that you wish that it would be. And so just as I have to be warmer externally than somebody with even just a different facial structure, it's like. But I know that that is the truth. And so I deal with the world that way. I know that because of my position that I intimidate people. I do not intend to. And so I have to deal with the world that way. And I have to be very careful about the things that I say because I'm the CEO. If I'm like, hey, we should think about this, man, I'll turn around and people will just be going down that path. Even though I just meant, hey, this might be a stupid idea, but what do you guys think about? Right? So I have to be very careful with that. So get so good they can't ignore you. That's going to take care of a lot of the problems and then figure out ways with your own personality, your own pattern, the way that you make people feel to get them to feel the way that you want them to feel rather than shut down or defensive or whatever.
- [14:40]
Lisa Bilyeu
Yeah, yeah, 100%. And that's exactly what I was going to say. It's like, what is the goal? What is your intention with any interaction? And did you get what you wanted out of it? And if not, then how can you adjust to get the results you're looking for without compromising who you are? So I used to feel like I had to prove myself. And in the effort to prove myself, I was very. What's the word? Like the chihuahua that just like is nervous. Nervous aggressive. Exactly where it's like, because I wasn't being taken seriously as a woman in business or I was just seen as Tom's wife, I definitely was nervous aggressive. So anytime I got the opportunity, I would go, I would push very hard to kind of show. See, I, I'm a badass. You can't push me around. I'm not a doormat. Now the problem is then you get perceived as that and people now don't take you seriously. So clearly that strategy didn't work. Then I went hard on the other. What were you gonna say?
- [15:32]
Tom Bilyeu
God, I don't mean to interrupt. So if you want to keep going, by all means.
- [15:35]
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- [16:35]
Tom Bilyeu
I was just going to say here's the really messy, complicated part that it didn't work entirely and it didn't not work entirely. So this is where the shit gets hard, man. So the reality was put you in context where you were. You had these physically big men because of your job. It was moving heavy stuff all day. So you had all of these big,
- [16:58]
Lisa Bilyeu
physically intimidating, like 6, 5, 6.
- [17:01]
Tom Bilyeu
And many of them either gang members or ex convicts because of our hiring strategies. And so there was an element of you had to be aggressive. Now, I think there were definitely times you misplayed it and there were definitely times that you were too aggressive and that definitely moved you back with some people. But at the same time, it's like you at least established that you weren't going to be pushed around. And then because you could back it up with work ethic and you were able to outwork and outperform, then it was like you also began to earn people's respect. But you 1000% created problems for yourself by being too aggressive. But I don't want it to be like, oh, if you'd just been like sweetness and light from the beginning, it would have been fine. It is fucking tough. I have personally never been able to play something perfectly. And no, you did not play that situation perfectly.
- [17:49]
Lisa Bilyeu
But that's interesting because the funny thing is, as I was describing, I actually wasn't thinking about when I was in production on shipping. Sorry, in shipping. I was thinking about when I transitioned over to building our studio.
- [18:00]
Tom Bilyeu
And there you had a lot of echo. So that earlier time.
- [18:03]
Lisa Bilyeu
Right.
- [18:03]
Tom Bilyeu
Really being too.
- [18:04]
Lisa Bilyeu
So that was things because I went from being a housewife that was like, super nurturing, take care of my husband, take care of the house. Then I went into an arena where it really was like 6 foot 5 ex convicts. And I just had to show my dominance, especially being British and 5:1, it's like I definitely had to. But when I transitioned over to building the studio in our media department, I was dealing with emotions a lot more and I was dealing with artists. Artists. And that was where I took that badass push grind, show everybody what you're made of into that arena. And it didn't work. And that's where I had to adapt and adjust. And I swung too hard in the other direction, where I felt like I ended up being a pushover because I didn't want to be perceived as a female bitch in the business space. And so it really is about finding that happy medium. What I was going to say actually before is, now I don't feel like I have anything to prove. Like, I know who I am. I know I have a code of ethics. And so as long as any interaction that I have doesn't compete with my code of ethics, I will then go, okay, well, if I want my results, I have to adjust accordingly. Now I have a code of ethics. That means even if I'm not getting what I want, if this comes into common, I'm not going to step over that line. Like, I'm not going to go against what I truly believe. And that's kind of how I stand my ground and use that as my compass and my North Star.
- [19:34]
Tom Bilyeu
I don't think it's just. Just ethics, though. I think. I think there's something slightly different in there, which is that I know it works. I know it doesn't work. And I'm not going to back down just to make things easier, because to me, ethics spills into, like, right and wrong versus effective and not effective.
- [19:55]
Lisa Bilyeu
Yeah, but both. Right. It's like, if something's going to be super effective, but it actually goes against my belief system, I won't do it even if I know it's going to be effective.
- [20:03]
Tom Bilyeu
Fair enough.
- [20:05]
Lisa Bilyeu
And then going to just the touching on the flirting thing, I think that women are, you know, like, I think if you're a certain nationality or something like that, like, you do have a harder time in certain situations. So being a woman in the business space, I've come to just accept that, like, you said it right at the beginning, it's like, don't fight it. The thing is, right now, it's the truth. And when I say don't fight it, I absolutely am working to fight it in, you know, the female space. And how do we speak up more? But I don't position myself in the companies, like, I'm a woman, so. And then going off that, I do recognize that as a female, we have something that guys don't have. It is our sexuality. And that doesn't mean that I go around flirting with everybody, but it does mean that I use my femininity to my advantage, and I've become okay with that. And I used to almost be embarrassed by it. Like, oh, you shouldn't. You know, like, it's business. You shouldn't. It's like, no, if I can use my. To make someone feel a certain way in regards to, like.
- [21:08]
Tom Bilyeu
I know what you mean, but you're really going to have to get super specific. What do you mean?
- [21:11]
Lisa Bilyeu
Well, what do you think?
- [21:12]
Tom Bilyeu
In what ways do you use your femininity?
- [21:16]
Lisa Bilyeu
So the nurturing side of me, okay, if I see somebody coming in and it's a guy and he's, you know, looking for. He's mentioned that he's thirsty. I'm going to go. Even if he's work, he works for me. Or even if it's a partnership, I'm like, oh, can I get you a drink of water? Like, using my nurturing side, my femininity side of it, to have them feel a certain way about me. Now they're relaxed, and then I can do business with them.
- [21:43]
Tom Bilyeu
Got it.
- [21:44]
Lisa Bilyeu
What do you think I meant?
- [21:46]
Tom Bilyeu
Or you giving me the look, like, yeah, you're I. What I thought you meant. And you definitely do this, whether it's intentionally or not. Like, for instance, if I don't know somebody, I'm going to shake their hand first, even though I'm a hugger. Whereas you will hug everybody. Oh, I'm a hugger. Bring it in. Like, you definitely use your diminutive stature. You know, you're not physically intimidating. You know that you can get away with throwing hugs around because you're a woman in a way that, like, a guy might be pursuit perceived as sexually aggressive or creepy or, I mean, especially right now, even potentially predatory. And so it's like, I'm super like, hey.
- [22:24]
Grainger Announcer
Hi.
- [22:25]
Tom Bilyeu
Oh, my God. So nice to meet you. Where you're like, literally never met the person ever before in your life and like, oh, my God, I'm a hugger. Come in. Yeah, so that's what I thought you were talking.
- [22:33]
Lisa Bilyeu
And the funny thing, I'm glad you brought that up, actually, because once upon a time, I wouldn't hug people because I'd be like, oh, is this weird? And I'm just like, I'm a freaking hugger. Like, and once I started doing that, and I just like, look, I'm a hugger. Come on in for a hug. I noticed people's demeanors change immediately, and I was like, wow, I'm a hugger. It's authentically me. And this actually brings down people's guard, and we can actually bond in that first, like, two minutes that I've met them. All right, next question. Edda Santos, what do you think about this notion most people have that men have to be romantic ones, the ones doing all the little things to keep women in love? That always bothered me in my previous marriage. Well, I think that that's absolutely a myth. And I think that we need to start talking openly about what we want. And we've gone through this. Is that, you know, yeah, I love romance, but the truth is, is that you have a very busy, chaotic life. And so if it's important to me, I need to be the one that is able to Start that conversation and let you know what I'm looking for. So you're not supposed to guess, hey, does she want flowers? Does she not want flowers? Should I do this for her? I'm very honest about what I'm looking for and what romance means to me. And you're also the. The same in the other way, where you're like, look, I will make you like, I love being romantic, but I just don't have the time. So what is it that you need from me so that we both feel this connection? But not being mind readers, that is
- [24:07]
Tom Bilyeu
so on the money. And the only response I have to that is boo. Hearing you say that, it makes me so very sad. And what makes me really sad is that I have no intention of changing it. But I used to be insanely romantic, and I used to put a lot of time and energy into it because, like, he's saying, like, that was my belief that it was the guy who was supposed to be romantic. And then everything comes down to values. And I just invalued that as much as I valued ambition and I wanted to really build something extraordinary. And we've been having an interesting conversation recently about whether that's for me or for you. And I will say that that's for both definitively, because I value that in a spouse to. I value that for sure. As a man, I'm not asking anybody else to value that. But for me as a man, I definitely value not just providing, but building something extraordinary. That's important to me. And it wasn't as important as romance. And I totally agree that if you want a successful relationship, that talking about it is the key. And that both of you carrying some of the weight is absolutely critical. But the only real emotion that I had, as you were saying that, was, yeah, wow, like, I really used to crush it in that department. And I do not.
- [25:29]
Lisa Bilyeu
So let's keep talking about that because you're absolutely right. And here's the thing. It is what I have had to grow into, to feel and believe for us to be able to be at this point in our relationship. And what I mean by that is, I freaking love romance. You used to run me poetry. You wrote me a song. You learned how to play the guitar to write me a song. That's how romantic you used to be. I mean, you've done the most incredible romantic things ever before. We were entrepreneurs, and so the reality is we had to sit down and go over, what does our life look like? Like, if we really are going after this, and this is Our goal. What things can we not do anymore? What things won't we have time for? And are we okay with those? So if you could. Exactly how you are now, exactly, like ambitious and as driven and work as hard, and you happen to have time to write me poetry and, you know, serenade me. Hell yes. Like, I'm not gonna, like, say, no, I'm not that romantic anymore. Like, that's not true. But I've had to adjust and say, okay, we've made this decision together. I still know that you love me. And when it's important, if I need attention, if I need time with you, I'm gonna tell you. So it's not that I'm not getting what I need in that sense, but it's. It's definitely one of those things that I had to tell myself, okay, we've made this decision. He just doesn't have time. You have to let go of it. Because I think one thing that couples. Mistakes that couples make is they secretly become bitter, right? And they hold on to it and they're like, well, you used what you used to do something for me.
- [27:03]
Tom Bilyeu
What he used to do something
- [27:08]
Lisa Bilyeu
lately, right? Exactly. And that's the thing is, like, I. I know that about me and I know that about human, you know, human beings that we can hold on to something and it may not surface right now, but it may surface in a year, it may surface in two years. It will surface in an argument and you spit it out and you don't even realize it. So I'm very aware that that could happen. And so what I did with myself is when we decided we're going to go down this path and what we're going to build, and we're building it together, I had to say to myself, are you okay with letting this go? And the trut. Yes.
- [27:41]
Tom Bilyeu
And we've talked a lot about it, right? You know, it's not like it was something that we haven't talked about. And I think that is the key, getting to the point one where you do things to stay connected. So, like, the trip that we just took and we take every year and like taking time on the weekends to really connect and all that, but having this stuff all mapped out and not just like a gut feel, like really discussing each step of the way, what means something to you, what matters, and what still gives you that awesome fiery spark. Because that I would say is an absolute non negotiable. Like, if our relationship had gotten to the point where the fire was dying, there wasn't that intensity. And the only way to get it back was to take less time for the business and put it into doing romantic things. Then, at least with my value system, that would have to happen. So. But we found other ways to make sure that we keep that going and that we really take the time to fan those flames, to reconnect in a way that's meaningful to us. And so that. Yeah, that's something. And I always hate it when an answer comes back to communication because it's just so trite. But in this case, it is very, very true.
- [28:56]
Lisa Bilyeu
Yeah. I mean, it may feel it, but I think it is absolutely true and important because, yeah, I never wanted to look back and think, like, oh, well, he used to do this for me, and now I don't feel as loved. Right. That's a big thing as well. It's like, no, no, I feel just as loved now. But it doesn't mean that that's. It's because you do the same thing. It's just we show it to each other in different ways, and we're very vocal with each other about how to show it and how it's interpreted.
- [29:23]
Tom Bilyeu
Which reminds me, we need to get that ornament creation kits, because you said you really wanted to do that.
- [29:31]
Lisa Bilyeu
Christmas ornaments. Yeah. And then I was gonna say something else. I forgot. No communication from that. No.
- [29:40]
Tom Bilyeu
Next question.
- [29:41]
Lisa Bilyeu
All right, this one's from Leslie Nicole Martin. If you're a female who comes across as the alpha but would prefer to be the beta, how do you attract a true alpha male? Wow, that's a great question.
- [29:54]
Tom Bilyeu
That makes me want to, like, come up with, like, not interview questions. That's the wrong word. But basically interview questions, like, how do you, you know, find out through conversation whether somebody is alpha? Wow. And you also have to be careful with that, because alpha and beta, we've defined. Yeah. If you're. If you mean the, like, alpha, as in everything has to be my way and domineering, which is often how people interpret alpha, then you have to be really, really careful, because I think that I never would have used the term alpha beta until we saw that documentary on the wolves and then realized that there wasn't a discrepancy in value brought to the pack between the alpha and the beta. It was just different roles. And I found that to be fascinating and just like, really, really not at all, because it more like Batman and his computer. And so if you understand how Batman's relationship to his computer and the way that the computer is, like, he literally couldn't do what he does. The computer's called Oracle and Oracle, like is the brain basically of what he does. And so you get, okay, one person is like out there actually fighting the crime, but the other is like sussing out all the patterns and where you should go and figuring this out and that out. And so seeing the, that documentary that we saw and it was like, okay, you have the alpha who's a decision maker, but you have the beta who's the enforcer.
- [31:28]
Lisa Bilyeu
And for people who. This is the first time we watched the documentary on wolves.
- [31:32]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah. And the it what shocked me was that the beta was bigger, physically bigger and more intimidating. And I thought, whoa. Like you always think of the alphas like they're the one that's tough as nails and they just beat everybody up and that's why they're the one in charge. And then I saw that and thought, wait a second, that beta would ruin the alpha, like if it came to a physical fight, it was just so much bigger. And I just thought, huh, that's really interesting. And it comes down to personality type and what the person is good at. And that really gave me the ability to understand that, yes, like from a perspective of what we're good at, being high level, strategic, figuring out where we should be moving as a couple, I've just always shined in that. But then logistically executing against that has always been somewhere that you shine. So for instance, knowing how important communication is and all of that was definitely something that I've been pushing from the beginning of our relationship. But I'm actually really bad about making sure that we spend the time to actually do it. And so you've always protected the relationship in that way. So it's like, I've known what to do and you've always made sure that we actually do it. And that is but one of many examples. So being very careful to get back to the question, being very careful about how you define being a true alpha and making sure that there's room for beauty and connection and support and listening to each other and all of that and equal value. Because that's the thing that I always worry about is that people think, because in our culture, Alpha is, that's what everyone wants to be.
- [33:07]
Lisa Bilyeu
I want to be. Right, right.
- [33:08]
Tom Bilyeu
And so it, and as a woman
- [33:11]
Lisa Bilyeu
who considers those extremely independent and strong minded to be called a beta initially was like, what? I'm not a beta? Like, it's such a stigma. Let's say that it's, it's less. But yeah, like overcoming that and us really defining what that means to us. And kind of, whether it's alpha, beta, or however you want to phrase it, one big thing that we did is like, what are you. What are you looking from for a partner? Like, and that was a big thing, especially as we transitioned into going into business together, right? It was like, okay, what type of wife do you want me to be? Like, no. In fact, we even said, like, forget about my feelings. Like, don't even worry about what I want right now. What type of wife do you want? And then what type of husband do you want to be? And then we did it in reverse. What type of husband do I want? And what type of wife do I want to be? And then we just laid it out. It's like, because look, at the end of the day, all you can do is be truthful. BSing each other or yourselves isn't going to help your relationship in any way, shape, or form. So you may as well have that conversation, lay out on the line, figure out what you guys are looking for, and is there a place where you guys can compromise? And you both sign. Sign off on it, right? You put your hand in a palm, say, okay, is this what we decide? That way there's no guesswork. There's like, oh, you know, when. When we had that discussion, you wanted me to be X, I agreed to it, so now I'm acting accordingly. And I think it's important to keep discussion because, like, me and you, that changed over time. So it doesn't mean that you, you put your hand in a pile and say, all right, now it's, you know, written in stone. And then five, 10 years down the line, you hold them to it if they feel like they've changed. I think it's important to keep addressing
- [34:47]
Tom Bilyeu
it, but I have the perfect answer to her question.
- [34:50]
Lisa Bilyeu
Go on.
- [34:51]
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- [35:51]
Tom Bilyeu
It's the selfish desire game. So if I were starting this all over, what I would do in the early dates, I would say, all right, I believe in this thing called selfish desire. Because inevitably what happens is people get in a relationship or they start dating, whatever. And where are we going to go to eat? What are we going to do this weekend? Whatever. So here is that one. This is. Everyone should use this in their relationship. And it goes like this. We're going to play selfish desire. You're going to tell me your selfish desire, and I'm going to tell you mine. And then once we know what the other person wants, regardless of what the other person wants, then we'll decide what to do together. Now, the reason that this is going to be so revelatory as to whether or not they're a true alpha in the way that I define it is that one will they actually tell you their selfish desire? Because oftentimes people won't. And they have such a fucking hard time with this game. Drives me crazy.
- [36:44]
Lisa Bilyeu
Because society has taught you the selfish is bad.
- [36:47]
Tom Bilyeu
That's part of it. The other part is people just don't know what they want. And so for us to be, I
- [36:52]
Lisa Bilyeu
bet you most people.
- [36:53]
Tom Bilyeu
Oh, God, we're going to derail right now.
- [36:54]
Lisa Bilyeu
I know. Sorry.
- [36:55]
Tom Bilyeu
Okay, so, no, no, no. Which we. I'm not trying to shut your argument down. I'm just saying that I'm absolutely beyond shocked that we don't see eye to eye on this. And if we weren't already at our time, man, I so want to go into this with you to the point where you have to finish because I'm going to have to dismantle your argument. Go. What a lovely setup, right?
- [37:19]
Lisa Bilyeu
I know.
- [37:19]
Tom Bilyeu
Get ready, motherfucker. I'm coming for you.
- [37:23]
Lisa Bilyeu
What was I even saying?
- [37:24]
Tom Bilyeu
You were gonna say, like, science, because I said people often don't know what they want.
- [37:27]
Lisa Bilyeu
Oh, society. Yeah, I. I absolutely think. It's just we have trained ourselves so much to not think about what we selfishly want. It's hard for us to tap into it. But I don't think that it's not that we don't know. Also, I think that we worry about judgment. Saying it out loud, it's like, oh, my God, am I actually gonna say this? So people weigh the options, like, okay, I'm so uncomfortable saying what I really want. I'm just gonna test the waters and say, I don't know. Like, I think it's all subconscious, but I absolutely think if people were by themselves and they only had their thoughts and all you had to do is think to yourself what you want, I bet you most people will be able to do that.
- [38:05]
Tom Bilyeu
You are out of your mind on point A. On point B, you're absolutely right. So point A, that people have just been had it beaten out of them is. Is. Oh, God. If you go back to infancy, is it possible that when people are young they really just know what they want? Yes. So if we're going all the way back to, like, age five, then, sure, it's been this long, slow process of having things beat out of them, but beaten out of them now to the point where they literally don't know what they want. And I say that as somebody who every single day people write and are like, the one thing I don't know how to do is figure out what I want to do with my life.
- [38:43]
Lisa Bilyeu
Life.
- [38:43]
Tom Bilyeu
I hear that all the fucking time. Go ahead.
- [38:46]
Lisa Bilyeu
I was gonna say that's very different than I was thinking more of like, what are we gonna do this weekend?
- [38:52]
Tom Bilyeu
Correct. That's what I'm talking about. But it is my, like, overwhelming life experience that people don't know what they want. And I can't believe of. Of all the people I know, you struggle with that the most. So, like, I am shocked that of all the people in the world to tell me now people secretly know what they want. Like you on our first date, do you remember saying yes and no to the bread eight times?
- [39:16]
Lisa Bilyeu
Yes. But here's the thing, babe. I knew what I wanted. I was just too embarrassed.
- [39:20]
Tom Bilyeu
No, you didn't. You wanted two different things. You wanted to impress me and you wanted the bread, and you thought it would impress me, but you didn't know what you valued more. So that's what I'm saying. You were legitimately stuck. And then now, even now, like, you'll struggle with stuff like that where I'm like, look, I'll make the decision for you because I don't have a problem making decisions.
- [39:39]
Lisa Bilyeu
Okay? And here's the thing that I've noticed about myself, though. I'm. I can easily make decisions in business. Like, I get a feeling, I speak up. I'm very definite. I'm very rarely in my wishy washy with things like that. But in my personal life, I don't like the feeling of being selfish and putting myself before you. And so that's why it's. I. And I even said this to you. Like, I have harder time deciding, but it's not out of lack of knowing what I want. It's just the decision making. Those actually.
- [40:09]
Tom Bilyeu
Why do you put on eight outfits before going out?
- [40:12]
Lisa Bilyeu
Hmm. Because I'm not sure on if I'm trying to. Yeah, it's all about how I feel.
- [40:20]
Tom Bilyeu
Why do you struggle to figure out what restaurant you want to go to?
- [40:23]
Lisa Bilyeu
Because I battle between being selfish.
- [40:28]
Tom Bilyeu
Not true. And I'm going to give you an insight into yourself. What you're saying are real things. That is a minor part of your decision. You struggle with opportunity costs. If I wear this outfit, I'm not wearing something else. If I go to this restaurant, then I'm not going to that restaurant. And there are people in life, they are standing before the sea of a thousand doors and they cannot shut 999 of them. They just can't. And that is so hard for them. Not because the door that they're going to end up going through isn't rad. It's because they cannot not have all of the doors open to them. And being able to. If you want to be an alpha, which I will define as leadership, of being able to decide and move forward. You cannot hesitate over opportunity cost. You've got to fucking march through a door. You've got to be able to decide and move, and that's it. And because this is, I think so fundamental to life and probably, if you really push me, the number one thing that messes people up in their life is they cannot shut those 999 doors that I cannot let that answer slide. That is what fucks people up. You lie to do that, baby. You do it so much. It is a defining part of your characteristic, and it is why I'm in the alpha position and you're not. It is not that you don't bring a crushing amount of value. And I mean this sincerely. Not having you in my life scares me so fucking much. Even if you just talk about you as a business partner, forget it. Forget that I'm in love with you. Forget that we build our lives around that we have the shared experience. Erase all of that. You're the best business partner I've ever had. Because you were. You're unconscionably good at execution. Once you know what to do, you're unbelievably skilled. It is. I want you know this. I want you to want to do the dishes. Like I want you to want to be the executor and I know that there are other things that, that are a siren call to you and I fully accept that. That. But because you were so ungodly good at. Oh, that's what we're doing. And you will get it done come hell or high water. And you're so good at that. But we would be in real trouble if you had to be the one to say, this is what we're doing.
- [42:39]
Lisa Bilyeu
The funny thing is you say that though, but with Women of Impact, I don't ever have doubts. I. I decide like that
- [42:50]
Tom Bilyeu
we can keep going down this path.
- [42:52]
Lisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- [42:52]
Tom Bilyeu
Like this is one of those things where.
- [42:54]
Lisa Bilyeu
But here's the thing. The reason being is because I don't have to think about you and the reflection on you. Things have. So in business, I've actually, and I didn't realize this about myself, but in Women of Impact, I'm able to make decisions. Why are you going silent?
- [43:15]
Tom Bilyeu
This is one of those where I want to learn and listen versus trying to be right. So I'm going silent to make sure there's not something that I'm not missing. I want to hear you out. I'm not yet convinced and nothing in my life has led me to believe anything other than. But I want to be open to that. This whole time has just been in everything. You're trying to make sure that you're not stepping on my toes.
- [43:45]
Lisa Bilyeu
No, no. And the funny thing is nothing of this is deliberate. I'm only discovering this now about myself. And as you're talking, I'm like, It's funny that you say that because you're absolutely right. Like when it comes to the company empathy, I absolutely like. Alright, so what are we doing? And I kind of wait for your vision and it's not even like because I'm incapable. It's like I respect your ideas and your business vision so much. But as I'm discovering about myself with Women of Impact, like you looked at the set and you're like, that set is so beautiful. Why didn't you. I just went with my gut. I didn't ask anyone, I didn't talk to anyone. I just designed it myself. I just did it and I wasn't paralyzed by it. So yeah, it's something I'm definitely discovering about myself.
- [44:28]
Tom Bilyeu
God, I want to keep going. We are unfortunately out of time.
- [44:31]
Lisa Bilyeu
I wonder what you got to say.
- [44:34]
Tom Bilyeu
Well, I mean, right now I want to listen, I want to learn and I don't want to like, nothing winds me up more than people that think they have a piece of knowledge and they're gonna fucking ramrod it through.
- [44:45]
Lisa Bilyeu
Yeah. But going back to like, this being an evolution. Right. I think the same with when I was a housewife and then getting into business. It's like I'm learning more about myself. And I think that's like.
- [44:57]
Tom Bilyeu
I love that, to be honest, so really fast. I will offer a hypothesis that I think you vehemently disagree with. But the reason that I was saying selfish desire is you'll be able to see if they're able to speak their selfish desire, which is a good sign. And second, maybe more importantly, that they'll listen to what yours is and try to find a way to incorporate everybody's feelings. And it may be we'll do yours next time, or it may be we'll do yours this time and mine next time, but that they're not a roughshod leader. For instance, it would have most people. When you gave me a piece of information that I could feel possibly opening up a new way to see your behavior, and instead of continuing to push my agenda and argue for it, I was like, I need to really listen to this and see if I've been. Either I've just misunderstood something for a very long time, or you've evolved and there's something that you're in the middle of changing and I haven't recognized yet, or possibly you're just wrong. Wrong. I don't know which of the three it is. But that is the very thing you want to make sure that if you're looking for a quote, unquote true alpha, that they can do that. Because you don't want to be with somebody who just needs to believe they're right or argues for their position because it was their position coming into it. And I put so much weight, like, I'm going to dismantle your argument, all of that at the beginning. Right. So I've set myself up. I better fucking win. But if you get somebody who does that, you're fucked. That will not be fun for a long time. And so one of the sort of true alpha things is, do they listen? And if people don't listen, man, that is a deadly sin in a relationship. So make sure that you have somebody. That's what I've heard the phrase. I'm totally stealing this, but I do not remember who said it. But strong ideas loosely held. Like, I believe what I believe strongly, but I'm always willing to change.
- [46:58]
Lisa Bilyeu
Right.
- [46:59]
Tom Bilyeu
So looking for that.
- [47:00]
Lisa Bilyeu
Yeah. Yeah, I guess you forgot that we started off on the whole selfish desire thing, because, like, just to give a very quick and exact example of something we just did, like, a few days ago. So we were in New York, and every morning we woke up, and the first thing I said is, all right, babe, what's your selfish desire? And you laid out everything that was important to you to do that day, and I did exactly the same thing. And we both sat there and we're like, okay, well, look, so let's say we would say we were going to go shopping. And you said, these are the two stores I want to go into. And I said, these are the three stores I want to go into. We knew we didn't have time to do all five of them. And so I looked and I said, you know what? As much as I really want to go through to all these three stores, the reality is only one of them is one that I would be truly disappointed if I didn't go to. And then you were like, well, look, babe, I don't really need to. So it's up to you, because you're very. And it may not. I don't know if people know this about you, but you are so freaking giving as a husband. Like, you will bend over backwards. You. You would have said, like, okay, don't do any of my selfish desire. Let's do everything for you. Like, that's the type of husband you are. Now, look, I don't think that it's fair to keep giving to someone without getting something in return in. In this, you know, type of situation. So I said, no, that's not fair, babe. Like, I'm not just gonna go to all of my shops. So I think we should go to one of yours, and then if we have time, go to one of mine, and if we have time, go back to one of yours. Like, I know this is kind of tedious, but this is exactly how we say it to each other. And I think that those little things end up being, like, very important to show that you're both kind of at equal weight versus a lot of time going back to the alpha and the beta. It's always perceived, or it can be perceived that alpha always get their way, Alpha does leads, and then the beta just tags along, and it's definitely not how we interpret it.
- [48:52]
Tom Bilyeu
All right? And with that, I'm going to tell them what the five stores were, and then they can decide who wanted to go where it was. Ugg. Oh, God, let me remember. Ugg. Louis Vuitton, Lululemon. Nintendo and Lego. So and those are the real stores. And with that we'll let you guys decide who wanted to go where. Thank you guys so much for joining us us for this episode. If this is adding value, please do share. Please rate and review you and your Lululemon colors. All right guys, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and until next
- [49:27]
Lisa Bilyeu
time, thank you guys.
- [49:28]
Tom Bilyeu
Be legendary.
- [49:29]
Lisa Bilyeu
Legendary.
- [49:30]
Tom Bilyeu
Bye everybody. Thank you so much for listening. And if this content is delivering value to you, please go to itunes, go to Stitcher, rate and review us. That helps us build this community and that is what we are all about right now. Building this community as big as we can to help as many people as we can deliver as much value as possible. And you guys rating and reviewing really helps with that. Alright guys, thank you again so much and until next time my friends, be legendary. Take care.
- [50:01]
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