What To Do When Your Partner Changes | Tom & Lisa Bilyeu (Replay)

Summary

Podcast Summary

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Episode Overview

Podcast: Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu
Episode Title: What To Do When Your Partner Changes | Tom & Lisa Bilyeu (Replay)
Release Date: October 9, 2023
Theme:
This episode dives deep into the challenges couples face when their individual growth trajectories or desires for self-development differ. Tom and Lisa Bilyeu, partners in marriage and business, openly discuss how partners can navigate personal development, changing values, and evolving ambitions without growing apart. The conversation is candid, practical, and full of insights applicable to anyone in a relationship—especially those wrestling with fears of “outgrowing” or “being outgrown” by their partner.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Inspiring a Partner’s Growth

(03:27–06:52)

• Listener Question: How do you encourage a significant other, who may not be interested in self-development, to grow alongside you?
• Tom’s Take: "The only thing that you can do is be an insanely good example for that person so that they see that you have joy in moments that they do not have joy, that you are impervious to something that they find devastating..." (04:27)
  • You can't want it for them—they must want it for themselves.
  • Leading by example and showing emotional resilience often inspires curiosity rather than direct persuasion.
• Lisa’s Input: Sometimes you’re ahead, sometimes behind. It’s natural for couples to influence each other, but change must come from within.

2. Reward and Punishment in Relationships (with Full Transparency)

(06:52–13:30)

• Humans instinctively use reward and punishment, but it’s healthiest to do it openly.
• Tom: “The only manipulation that I’ll use is that I’ll tell you when I’m manipulating, because I never wanted you to feel that. The unseen hand on the chessboard.” (07:54)
• Full transparency about motivations and tactics creates trust. Couples should openly discuss what behaviors they like and don’t like.
• Example: When playing video games or shopping, each partner is clear about what behaviors are enjoyable or hurtful.

3. Never Abusing Vulnerability & The Power of “Important to Me”

(13:30–17:19)

• Each person gets rare “veto” or “key” requests ("This is important to me"), but these are never abused.
• Abuse of emotional vulnerability erodes trust. True partnership means never using a partner’s insecurities or vulnerabilities against them, even during conflict.
• Tom: “In a relationship, you’re giving a lot of power to the other person to hurt you… not ever betraying that… is so critical.” (13:30)

4. Trust, Hormones, and Emotional Dynamics

(17:19–20:02)

• Lisa: The evolution of trust allowed her to accept Tom’s feedback about possible hormonal influences on behavior without feeling patronized.
• Reflection and honest conversation are crucial—never rush to make emotional judgments.

5. Clarifying Values: Is Wanting Different Things a Dealbreaker?

(22:13–26:57)

• “I know how much it has impacted my life, but she’s seemingly fully content with being average.”
• Lisa: It’s essential to clarify whether this is your partner’s true desire or merely your perspective of them.
• Tom: “It may just be that you value two different things. She’s not wrong. You’re not right. But you’re right for you, and she’s right for her—and she may be wrong for you.” (25:06)
• Couples should sit down and explicitly discuss their life goals, ambitions, and definitions of happiness, without judgment.

6. Dealing with Growing Apart (and Growing Together)

(29:51–33:56)

• Growth can align if both have a growth mindset and the relationship is prioritized.
• Tom: Prioritizes relationship above business; would split assets equally if core values diverged: “For me, it’s that… both of us feel—not just understand intellectually, but feel—our equality.” (32:31)
• Staying connected as you grow means being equally invested in the relationship’s health as in personal pursuits.

7. Communication, Value Alignment, and Mission Statements

(34:36–37:07)

• Recipe for handling change:
  1. Communicate directly and often.
  2. Define values individually and as a couple.
  3. Actively practice agreed behaviors (mission statements, therapy, shared goals).
• Anecdote: Referring to Casper Craven’s episode and how writing a family mission statement realigned a near-divorce couple.

8. Grace, Effort, and Managing Different Paces of Growth

(38:00–41:18)

• Growth is seldom at the same pace; mutual “grace” and “effort” is key.
• Tom: “If the person is ahead of you, they need to see that you’re putting in the effort.” (38:05)
• Extend compassion when your partner lags; understand you'll need it in return someday.

9. Preventing Unnoticed Change and Drifting Apart

(41:18–44:27)

• Regular check-ins (ideally weekly) allow couples to stay updated on each other’s evolving selves.
• “You just see each other every day… before you know it, two years have passed and they've actually emotionally changed, but you haven't seen it coming.” (41:18)

10. Addressing Negative Changes Without Attacking

(44:27–49:18)

• When one’s change starts negatively impacting the dynamic (e.g., becoming too stoic or aggressive at home), feedback should be gentle, specific, and centered around impact on the relationship.
• Lisa: “It needs to be: ‘This is why it’s bad for us as a couple.’ There needs to be no aggression.” (46:03)
• Tom: The art is holding two competing truths—appreciating growth but realizing it may have drawbacks.

11. Being a Team, Supporting Each Other’s Changes

(49:18–50:40)

• Collaborate on what you each need when changing gears (from work mode to home mode, etc).
• Help each other through sickness, business stress, or emotional shifts as a team instead of adversaries.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tom Bilyeu (04:27):
  “The only thing that you can do is be an insanely good example for that person so that they see that you have joy in moments that they do not have joy, that you are impervious to something that they find devastating...”
• Lisa Bilyeu (06:59):
  “People do it to each other all the time. They just don’t admit it.”
• Tom Bilyeu (07:54):
  “The only manipulation that I’ll use is that I’ll tell you when I’m manipulating, because I never wanted you to feel that. The unseen hand on the chessboard.”
• Lisa Bilyeu (13:30):
  “We’re never abusive of the rules. We’re never abusive of vulnerability.”
• Tom Bilyeu (25:06):
  “She’s not wrong. You’re not right. But you’re right for you, and she’s right for herself—and she may be wrong for you.”
• Lisa Bilyeu (33:46):
  “We have thus far shown that we’re able to navigate so that the relationship becomes the brightest, most beautiful and amazing thing in our lives.”
• Tom Bilyeu (38:05):
  “If the person is ahead of you, they need to see that you’re putting in the effort... then you have the grace to give them that time and space to catch up.”
• Lisa Bilyeu (41:18):
  “You just see each other every day...before you know it, two years have passed and they've actually emotionally changed, but you haven't seen it coming.”
• Tom Bilyeu (49:18):
  “You’ve got to want them to win. And the other person…the one that has to change has to want the other person to get the partner that they deserve and want to be.”

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Timestamps of Major Segments

• 01:15–03:27: Show opens, review of the week, goals for the podcast
• 03:27–06:52: How to encourage partner's self-development
• 06:52–13:30: Reward & punishment with transparency in relationships
• 13:30–17:19: Not abusing emotional vulnerability in partnership
• 17:19–20:02: Trust, hormones, and emotional processing
• 22:13–26:57: Values, dealbreakers, and aligning ambitions
• 29:51–33:56: Growing together vs. growing apart; prioritizing the relationship
• 34:36–37:07: Communication & the use of mission statements
• 38:00–41:18: Grace, effort, and different paces of growth
• 41:18–44:27: The slow drift—preventing unnoticed change
• 44:27–49:18: Addressing negative change with compassion
• 49:18–50:40: Teamwork and supporting each other’s shifts
• 50:40–51:28: Closing remarks and calls to action (skip as requested)

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Key Takeaways

• Lead by example rather than forcing personal development on your partner.
• Transparency and communication about your intentions, preferences, and needs are foundational.
• Don’t abuse vulnerabilities—trust is built on shared power, not one-sided advantage.
• Clarify values, ambitions, and dealbreakers together. It’s okay if you want different things, but don’t stay in quiet resentment.
• Relationships require regular, honest check-ins—growth shouldn’t go unnoticed or unspoken.
• When addressing uncomfortable changes, focus feedback on how it affects 'us,' not just 'me' or 'you.'
• Teamwork and mutual support are the glue that holds relationships together through both individual and shared ambitions.

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Anyone seeking tools to navigate changes in a romantic relationship—whether due to ambition, emotional growth, or shifting values—will find Tom and Lisa’s real-world examples and practical frameworks both relatable and actionable.

Transcript

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[Tom Bilyeu]

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Relationship Theory. I'm your co host Tom Bilyeu and I'm here with my lovely wife Lisa, who I got to spe basically the last 10 days with. Happy New Year.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Happy New Year 2019, baby.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah buddy. One day. That's going to sound ridiculously outdated, but right now it sounds futuristic.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Happy New year to everyone, Ms. Ming, and hope that they've got great, incredible plans for 2019 and we have a review of the week that you're going to read this time.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Here we go. I've been enlisted to read this. All right, the first one is from G. Dimes is what it looks like. I love impact theory, but by far the most helpful and applicable to my life are the Relationship Theory podcast. It's so insightful to hear how two successful people work to create a healthy partnership and share tips on how I can integrate pieces into my own life. This has been such a game changer in my relationship and one of my favorite things to do each week is to listen to Relationship Theory with my partner and discuss areas of our relationship that we can improve on. Tom and Lisa are so relatable and we often laugh about how similar we are to them. We need more people talking about how to sustain healthy relationships and this is such a good listen. Definitely recommended to couples looking to reflect and Dive deeper into the ins and outs of their relationship. That's a good one.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Nice.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I like that. Thank you for that.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Thank you. And in case you guys don't know, we are now reading out weekly reviews. That is definitely one place that we're really, really gunning for is more reviews, more comments.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. It helps us get in front of more people. So if you want to talk about climbing up the rankings, we have 2019 goal. I want to get the podcast into the top 100 podcasts on all of itunes. That would be amazing. And the way that we're going to do that is by getting in front of more people. And so it'd be super helpful. So if we've added value, that would be an amazing. Yeah.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Rate and review. Rate and review. And another thing for relationship theory for 2019 is we are thinking about possibly bringing it back to YouTube. So I'm not sure how we find out from people if they want it on YouTube or not, but that is something that we're planning to do. Coming up. We haven't really said anything yet, but stay tuned. Yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Without further ado.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah. Let's answer the first question. All right. This is from Dylan. I'm wondering how I can encourage my significant other to begin with self development. I know how much it has impacted my life, but she is seemingly fully content with being average. Well, I want everything life has to offer. I'm extremely happy with her, but I'd just love to be able to grow ourselves together. What can I do? It's so fascinating that this is one of those questions that we get a lot is how do I help someone in my life grow? Because. Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, why'd you start?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Oh, I was just gonna say because, you know, for us, it really has. We've had to navigate in sometimes where I'm. If I've been struggling, like, you're trying to help me get through it, but ultimately, like, it has to be done by that person. So how do you make someone feel supported and at the sometime the same time, encourage them to get better or do.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So this question haunts my dreams because there are people that I love very much that I have just been unable to get them to want it. And so over the years, I've been beaten down and realized that without dedicating my entire life to that person, I just can't want it for people. And I only put the caveat of without dedicating my life because I need to believe that if I dedicated my entire life to it, that I could pull it off. But that would clearly be a waste of my energies. And so I have devoted myself to the people putting it out there for the people that want it can come and partake. Now, that isn't a good answer. When it's a relationship, that's the hard part. That's why this question is like, I so want to give a compelling answer. But here is the truth of what I know about human nature. The only thing that you can do is be an insanely good example for that person so that they see that you have joy in moments that they do not have joy, that you are impervious to something that they find devastating, devastatingly stressful or anxiety producing. And you're able to weather those storms by being very calm through some of that. And I think, one, I never want to take credit from you. You are extraordinary and you want it for yourself and I've never wanted it for you. You've always been the driving force of that. Now, having said that, I think that I naturally started on the journey a little bit before you. I started reading and researching the mind and everything before we even met. And that was probably one of the things that you gravitated towards was it made sense to you that I was doing. So there was no need for me to convince you on that. So I don't want to take that away. But I think that the reason that you gravitated towards the way that I was was I had emotional equilibrium in times where you were very stressed out or something would knock you off. And so it was like, okay, how are you staying even keel through all of this and knowing that that's a big thing, that that's going to draw people to you, that's huge. And then the other is when I really think back to what you and I did to influence each other massively. And it is reward and punishment. And there's. I almost don't want this to be true, even though I know that people move towards what they want more of and they move away from things that they don't. And so that is a reality. And you and I were naked in showing our pleasure and displeasure. And that is how you shape somebody. And the reality is I can already feel the, like, pushback that we're going to get on this. But it is the truth.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And that's the thing that I was going to say is that people do it to each other all the time. They just don't admit it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

100 right. It's like, okay, you want to do something nice for someone, like to make Them feel good. Like, let's say a woman on her. On her partner's birthday, the chances are they're gonna give them sex. Right. Let's just call it spade a spade. Because they're like, it's gonna make him happy. So we know. We, as in humans, not just women, we know exactly how to play the other person. We just don't want to actually admit it and say it out loud and what we've done, admit it, say it out loud, and use it together to really shape who we want as a partner and then what we want as a couple with. No, Like, I actually think that it's the secretiveness that makes it bad. Right. It's like, I see your tactics every time you do it, and I admire them and I respect them. Every time I see them, I'm like, good play, Mr. Binliu. Because, yeah, you've given me what I'm looking for, so you've encouraged me to do it more.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I think it's very important to say that I told you from the jump that the only game that I'll ever play with you is that I'll be completely transparent. So the only manipulation that I'll use is that I'll tell you when I'm manipulating, because I never wanted you to feel that. The unseen hand on the chessboard. And in my life, in business, the one lesson I learned is even though there are definitely times where you can position people, and even when it's for their own good, you can position them in a way where they're going to grow and do the things that they need to do and all that, if they don't know exactly what you're doing and why you're doing it, it just makes them uneasy.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so always telling each other, hey, here's what I'm doing. I want, like, now I'm going to not use words like we use. I'm going to use the actual words. Hey, I love that when you do that. It makes me feel XYZ way. I want to see more of that. So I want to make sure that I'm giving you the praise and attention that you need for that thing. And even asking, like, what is that? Like, what would you, like, receive. I hate that word. But, like, what would you receive and really hear and understand if I were to do that right now? And so, for instance, something that's very meaningful to you that I never would have known if you hadn't just told me is make me heat up the hot water for me every morning that Was super meaningful to you. It made you feel appreciated and all. Cool. Well, then I'm going to make sure that I do that. And then what are the things that I want that are meaningful to me, that make me feel loved and cared for? Oh, God. I have long held back on this confession on the show, which is funny because I would talk about this privately with absolutely no hesitation whatsoever.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I'm curious now.

[Tom Bilyeu]

The way that you got me to be interested in shopping was I would get to go in the changing room. And so that for me was when they would let us. Obviously, that for me, was always fun. Yeah, I love seeing you try on sexy clothes. I love seeing you naked, you know, so it was like, that was how you got me excited. So then it was like, I want to pick out clothes that I want to see you try on. So that became like, how we, like you would just say very expressly, like, hey, come in the changing room with me so that we can make this a sexy moment for you. And then I was like, well, like, if we're gonna be doing that, then, yeah, I'm fully on board, so.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And the same. When you're trying on clothes, I know what words will make you feel good about yourself, right? If I said, like, oh, baby, you look so cute in that, there's no way in hell you're ever gonna try something, yeah, you would ban it immediately. But if it was something I really wanted you to try on, and I actually. Because one thing, we don't lie to each other. So if I really wanted you to try something on and I hated it, I wouldn't try. And, like, well, he tried it on, so I need to encourage him. Like, I was still be honest with the fact that I hated it. But if you tried something on and I thought, wow, this really looks good and good on him. I know what words to use to make you feel good. Like, babe, you look like your muscles. Like, it's really tight on your chest and it looks really great. Or your arms look fantastic. I just want to touch your arms, like, giving you the encouragement that you hear that then makes you go, you know what? Kind of. When we went shopping last time, like, it. It felt really good. So using those types of tech. Tech tactics and techniques on each other with. With full transparency.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's weird to me that. That it's like a weird thing for people, but reward things you want to see more of and punish. And that word. I. If there is a different word, by all means, drop in the comments. I would love to Hear it. But it's like when you don't want something a, you need to communicate it. It doesn't have to be mean or cruel or any of that. Like, that is not what I mean by punish. I just mean that you make it very clear that you don't want that again, that you don't want more of that. And so for instance, if you have a partner and the partner is. They're mean spirited about something and. Or they, God, they're just doing a behavior that is. It doesn't foster the relationship. You need to walk away from it. You need to not do. You could even do. Here's a great example of a punishment. So if you and I were playing

[Lisa Bilyeu]

video games and use a punishment, quote, unquote, people in this.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, quote, unquote. Well said. So because I want people to understand this isn't being verbally abusive to somebody. I'm not talking about that. Jesus. I'm definitely not talking about spanking or anything like that. I'm talking about where not encouraging. Right? So if you and I were playing video games and I were verbally abusive or putting you down or saying you suck, I can't believe, like you're holding us back. Okay, that's clearly behavior you would not want to see more of. So you saying I'm not gonna play with you now because you're not making me feel good about myself. If I said, I'm so sorry. No, no, no, stay. And you said, I get that and I really hope that that's true. But I'm done playing for today and we'll try again tomorrow or whatever. That would be a meaningful punishment to me where I'd be like, whoa, fuck, I don't want that anymore. I want to make sure that we get to play together and we get that time as something important to me is something meaningful to me. And so when I say quote, unquote, punishment, that's what I'm talking about.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And then the key is then for me not to use it as a, like a malicious tool though, right? Like, I just want to punish him. So no, I'm not going to play now.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like, now you're getting to such.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But that's the thing. It's like you can't just throw it at people in that way. But we don't. We'll say like, look, you've really hurt me. I totally understand that you didn't mean to, but I actually am a little upset right now. So let's just hold off till tomorrow and if you can adjust and Change that will be amazing, right? Doing it in a calm way like that. But in a way it's like I need him to know that he really hurt my feelings. Making it clear, I think definitely making it clear.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But let's really dive into what you're saying because it's so, so, so critical. Okay. The thing that's hard to explain, that has been, I think, one of the absolute keystones of our relationship and why we're able to have a high functioning relationship even though we work together and we've been together almost 20 years and is that we're never abusive of the rules, we're never abusive of vulnerability. So the easiest example to give is we have this saying where it's, it's important to me. You say, it's important to me and the other person's going to drop whatever they're doing and they're going to do that thing that's important to you. 99 times out of 100, when I say, oh, this is important to me, like, it was actually important to me, like way earlier than I said it. And I let it go as far as I possibly could. And then I'm like, okay, now I have to say this is important to me. But each of us, what do we two, three things a year where we're like, this is important, I need you to do it. It is really rare because we're never abusive of that vulnerability. You say something to somebody in a moment of deep connection where you're really feeling confident, secure, and so you confess something. We call it giving the keys to the kingdom. Like he when I'm in this place, like, this is what I'm going through, so help me out. And we've never used those things against each other. So I know your deepest insecurities. And it is a part of my personality that if you and I, for whatever reason, we ended up going our separate ways, I would never use those against you. I wouldn't even use those against you if you were using mine against me, because it's not who I want to be. So having that in a relationship, that's why we can function at a high level. Because there's no abuse of those powers like in a relationship. You're giving a lot of power to the other person to hurt you, to demean you. Like those are always there. It's like this constant background, like, whoa, this person could really fuck me up. And that's how people have trust issues. And not ever betraying that, like making it a, a cornerstone of your own personality that you don't do that. Like, that is so critical. And it goes all the way from like really damaging emotional shit, like not throwing somebody's insecurities back at them all the way to something like it's important to me not abusing that, really letting it go. Another one that's so dangerous, like playing with fucking fire. If your in a hormonal cycle and I think that you're acting a certain way because of that hormonal cycle, dude, if I think you're like, let's say on a scale of 1 to 10, at like 4 or 5, I know, wow, this is really not like her. I'm not going to say that I'm going to let that shit go until it's like an 8 or a 9 where I'm like, we passed. I thought this was a hormonal thing literally 20 like comments ago. And now I'm gonna say something and with the utmost respect, not in an aggressive way, not trying to demean you or put you down or anything like, just, hey, I really want to explore like actually using words like this. I want to explore that maybe like this is where you're at and I'm super open to I'm not right about this. But keep in mind I'm saying that when I'm so beyond convinced that like, that's why I'm bringing it up at that moment. But like, if you say it the second it occurs to you, well, now you're going to say it some percentage of the time, even if it's only half of where you're wrong and they're not there and you've just misread, you've misinterpreted and they really do have reason to be saying it like that. Now that undermines your credibility, makes them feel like you're accusing them of something and it just begins to undermine like the, the communication and their sense of how you perceive them with all that stuff. You have to be super careful. I'm not sure I did a great job of explaining that, but.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But when we first started dating and you would say something like, oh, you know, are you, is it the time of the month or something? Like immediately like, you know, you're using that as an excuse, right? That was my first reaction when you would say, oh, it must be the time of the month. No, that's just your excuse of saying that I shouldn't be upset. Then it evolved into like, I trust you enough to be able to be sober about whether you think this is out of character for me and it's hard sometimes for you to see that within yourself, right? Like, especially when all the chemicals in hormones are telling you to that what you are feeling is in and of itself right. It feels right, so it must be right. So having to let go of if it's actually right and trusting you that you can give an honest account. And then that third step though was not just putting then all my faith into you going, well, if you're saying that I'm, I'm acting hormonally, then I must be right. That third step for me was like, okay, once now that I've let go and I'm not defensive, I don't just always want to those trust that you're always going to be right. Like, I need to have thoughts of my own and think about does this feel right? Like, is he right about it being the time of the month? Or is what I am thinking and feeling accurate? Because I don't just want to keep dismissing it as the time of the month either. And so that's kind of where I am on that balance of things and saying, okay, well how much do you think he's right? You trust him, so it's right to you. But do I agree with you? And for me, most of the time is really kind of just taking that time away. Like spending an hour or two by myself thinking about it and then going back to, okay, is he right or not?

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[Tom Bilyeu]

The key there is isn't whether I end up being right, because you may go, you know what? I'm looking inside myself and it's. It isn't. It's that whether upon reflection you're like I get why he thinks that, yeah, he's wrong, and he's wrong for these reasons, but I get why it seems, in this moment, out of character. And if 100% of the time you're like, I get why he's thinking that, then you're fine. It's when it's like, God, he's using that to try to shut me down. That's where it becomes a problem. And if you know that my motives are never to shut you down, they are like, I'd let it go as far to where I'm like, there's nothing left for me to say. With my ability to understand you, it is. The only thing option I have left is to vocalize. I think that's where we're at now. That may be the key that finally gives you the way to explain it to me. So, oh, I can see why I'm wrong. But it's like, you know, I'm not trying to hurt you with it. You know, I'm not trying to shut you down with it. And that I'm very open to being wrong if I have simply misread something or not fully understood why that moment has the elevated intensity that it has. And that's the key. Like, that, like all of this, the last seven minutes has been me trying to get at that. That the other person always knows because you act so consistently that you're not trying to hurt them, you're not trying to demean them, you're not trying to shut them down. And that you're never abusing a tool that the other person gives you. And, like, that's super important. Like, for instance, the letter that I gave you to read to me when I would get pissed off. You didn't read it every time I got pissed. In fact, you only had to read it to me one time. And. And that is the critical thing is when you lower your defenses to somebody and you open yourself up to them, every moment thereafter is about shaping each other into becoming. Because, look, almost certainly in the early days, you're gonna fuck up and you are, in your own moment of weakness, going to use something against them in some way, shape or form. And in those moments as a couple, you need to stop and have a really. Once the emotion has dissipated, you need to have a really serious conversation about that is an act of, like, almost criminal offense in the relationship to do something like that. And you have to be really, really careful.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah, I literally could keep going on with this. I don't even know if we actually answered the poor guy's thing. So in fact, let's go back to this question because there was one thing that he said that I was like, interesting. I know how much it has impacted my life, but she's seemingly fully content with being average. I want to know if that' his perspective or she actually said that because that's his perspective. Yeah. So like, I think they need to have that conversation. Like it feels like you want to live X type of life with no judgment though, right? Because again, like if, let's say average is a 9 to 5, does their job, comes home and then goes out, enjoys their food, dinner time with friends, let's say that's a, a typical life. Let's say maybe that's what she wants. And the way he is, at least in this saying it is like average is bad. And I think they need to clarify that. I think they need to really sit down and say, what life are you looking for? What life do you want? And what life do I want? Because when as time has gone on with me and you, I recognize, I leave me to my own devices. I would not build a studio. Like, I just wouldn't, I wouldn't have like the, the way of thinking about it. It's not where my, my actual, let's say all time goal is. I like, I want to win an Academy Award, but I recognize that in and it's so grand. That's what you love about it. And I support it. I'm on board. Like, I'm excited. But I wouldn't do it by myself. You would do it by yourself. And I had to learn that. That's okay. That doesn't make me less than you, that doesn't make me weaker than you, that doesn't make me less interesting than you. And I had to kind of look at it. Otherwise I was always going to compare myself. You're willing to work harder than I am. You're willing to go. I mean, God, not that we're not all in, but you know, you'll work 20 hour days consistently. I just can't do that. And I'm not willing to. So really figuring out what your limits are, what my limits are, what your dreams are, what my dreams are, and then putting it together. Because now if I'm like, hey, I just want to watch an hour of crappy tv, you don't look at me of like almost disgust, like, I can't believe you're not building this. They're working on the studio. It's like, no, you know, that's what she's putting in. And this is what I'm putting in. I don't know if I'm just waffling at this point.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, let's get really gross now. You're absolutely right. And my favorite quote is from. On this subject is from Ray Dalio and he said he's the most successful hedge fund hedge fund manager of all time. And he said, I don't know that my life is better than somebody who just wants a nice, quiet, stress free life. I just know it's the only life I could have lived.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Why now?

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's not gross. The gross part is if you're with somebody that lives a life that you don't value and you don't want to be with somebody who lives a life that you don't value, that's also not wrong. And so this is where it gets, I think. No, no, no. I'm saying this is going to be potentially hard for him to think through. It may just be that you value two different things. She's not wrong. You're not right. But you're right for you and she's right for you and she may be wrong for you. And that's the hard part. It's like if he wants to be with somebody, like now that I've had a partner who ironically the same partner was a housewife and that was her pursuit versus now being fully engaged as an entrepreneur and all that. It, I, I couldn't go back.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Interesting.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So I have lived both of those lives and I feel so much more connected to you and it would be. I wouldn't want to go back. So that is, that's just a reality for me.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So even if I was just as happy. Yeah. Because in the past you've said you wouldn't go back because of my happiness, but I don't think you've ever actually said it for that reason.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, I mean, look, to really be crazy if you were like, I'm done with this, I want to tap out. Of course. But if I were back in the situation of now, I'm having to decide.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And do I want to, hey, I really connect with this woman. But she's not interested in pursuit and she's living the his version of an average life. Yeah. I wouldn't pursue that.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah. And I think that's so important and I think that that's one thing that might be missing from this whole thing is what type of life does she actually want and does she know how he feels about that?

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's a great point. So I'm Going to try to package this up and then we should move on. So. And package it up for him to make usable decisions. So, one, decide what you're looking for in a partner. Two, decide if you really want to try to shape her. I think we've already covered that with the reward and punishment. And then three, you've got to really make a decision about whether you're going to invest in that and go down that road of trying to shape the person, because that's a heavy, heavy commitment and will force you to communicate in the way that you're talking about. Where everything's got to be communicated, everything's got to be defined. She has to understand what it is that you value and all of that. And you guys have to have the raw, open, honest talk so that you guys can figure this out. Because living a life of quiet desperation where you're silently judging her because you secretly want to be with somebody that's more driven. Like, that's a nightmare for both of you. That is a lose, lose situation. So, yeah, you're gonna have to communicate. If you guys decide that you want to go down that path together, then, you know, we've already talked about how to shape people's behavior. But it's a very big decision.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a big thing. Is like, is it a deal breaker? Because you put, I'm extremely happy with her, but I'd just love to be able to grow ourselves together. Like, I understand that, and I think a lot of people that are listening to this get that too. But I think you need to decide, have the conversation, and if they're not willing to necessarily go down the, the rabbit hole of like, growth mindset and development and stuff like that, you have to ask yourself, is it a deal breaker in your relationship? Yes or no. And whatever you decide, you can't. Like, if it's not a deal breaker, then you've got to let go of the fact that she, let's say, wants to be average. You can't hound her and be, you know, like, strong arm her or try and convince her. Like, if she's. If this is who she said she is and this is the life she wants, you have to ask yourself, is it a deal breaker? Yes or no. And then work towards that with complete ferocity. But you can't then hold it against them. Right? It's like, no, I kind of want the 9 to 5. It's like what I say all the time about you being an entrepreneur. Like, I can't love the Fact that you're driven and you've got a massive ambition. Ambitions and at the same time be resentful that you're not home. Right. Like, if I accept the fact that you're like this, the entrepreneur, the hard working guy, then I can't hold anything else against you. I have to accept it. And that comes with everything else. And so I think that's really what he needs to do. Next question is from Misty Howell Buckley. What do you do when one person feels as if they have changed mentally and emotionally, but the other partner has stayed the same as in developing to a more enlightened level, but the other person does not have the same want or need in their life? Is it possible for all people to grow together or do some people just inevitably grow apart? What do you do when who you are when you met is not who you are now?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, so growing together I think is if, if both people have a growth mindset, I think that they can absolutely grow together. But I think that wants are like shifting sands. So it becomes like that is going to change. Everybody's wants and desires are going to change. And it really becomes a question of how important is it to you to be with that person forever. So for me, I prioritize our relationship. So there's no question there are things that are deal breakers. And if you wanted to go off in some crazy direction or whatever, then you know, we would have to really think about that. But like for instance, so that people understand to what extent, I mean that, that if tomorrow you said, hey, I have a different vision for a company that I want to build, it's not like I'd just be like, oh, okay, cool, whatever, go do your own thing. But if we could not come to an agreement on how to build a company together, then we would divide the money that we've allocated to build a company into and you would get the full right to go build your own company and I would go build mine. Now why is that meaningful? Because I think that that would be suicide. And the likelihood of both businesses surviving is essentially zero. And we would take an already nearly impossible task and exacerbate its difficulty level like a thousandfold. But because I need you to know in no uncertain terms, we are equals in this relationship. And it sounds like relationship death to me to ever give the person any inclination that you think anything other than that to the marrow of your bones, that I would never make a decision to save the business or otherwise that would damage our marriage. So like, I've played that out in My head a thousand times where you're like, actually, I want to go build this. What do you do? And the answer is, well, you give her half the money. Like, that's just abundantly clear to me. Now, I would try to talk you out of it, because from a business perspective, I think it's the wrong move. But, like, you need to know and feel that at every turn. And I'll ask, do you feel that at every turn?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah. And I literally was about to say, you know, in full transparency. You know, the more I, you know, do Women of Impact, you did say to me, like, look, if at some point like this, the studio doesn't feel right to you, and you do want to focus on Women of Impact, be very aware that this is now two companies, and we won't be together every day, and what we have now won't exist. But at no point are you ever going to say no. And here's take whatever money, the half the money. You've actually said that to me, and of course I turned around, was like, look, my biggest, not necessarily goal in life, but my biggest enjoyment is working with you is building a, you know, a company together. So I didn't want to take that option, but you absolutely had said that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So. And I bring that up now just because, like, that's growing together. That's like, how do you facilitate that? Is the relationship your highest priority? If the relationship is both of your highest priorities, then you talk through it. You figure out what your value systems are. What are the things that are most important? For me, it's that that one of the values that I hold most high is that both of us feel, Feel. Not understand intellectually, but feel our equality. So when we set up impact theory, we are 50, 50 partners, which is the ultimate divorce nightmare. And the actual quote that I said to the attorney setting up the company was create the ultimate divorce nightmare. Because I'm so committed to the fact that we will never get divorced, that this is. And even if we did, that my belief system would kick in, and half of this is yours. No matter what happens, no matter if you were, you cheated on me. Like, gross infidelity. That. That doesn't change that you helped build everything that we have. So it would hurt and I would think you a bad person, but it wouldn't change how I would view what we built together. So.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And I want to make it clear, when you say that we won't get divorced, it's not that we would stay in a marriage where we're profoundly unhappy in though Correct.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It is that we have thus far shown that we're able to navigate so that the relationship becomes the brightest, most beautiful and amazing thing in our lives.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. I would never stay in an unhappy

[Lisa Bilyeu]

marriage because Will Smith, basically, in the red table that I brought up a few episodes ago, he said that he. He's like, oh, yeah, I will be completely unhappy, but I will never get divorced. And that was partly. Yeah, long story mean, you should watch the interview. But I was like that, to me, seems crazy. Like, if I was not happy. I have one life to live, and I'm gonna do everything in my power to have a great relationship. I'm gonna listen to relationship podcasts. I'm gonna go to therapy. I'm gonna read books. I'm gonna freaking try everything I possibly can to make it work. But if it still doesn't, I'm not gonna live my life unhappy. So sorry.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, I think that's really powerful, and I totally agree. So, yeah. That if. Here's what you have to do. This is the recipe. One, you're going to have to communicate. Two, you're going to have to define your values so that you know, like, what's important to you, what's not, what you're willing to give up, what you're not. Because if you don't deal with that ahead of time, you're going to come to a crisis and you're not going to know how to deal with it because you don't know what your value system is. I've already given examples of that in our own life. And then, three, you've got to actually put this stuff into practice. So you've got to. Like you said, if it's therapy, you need to go to therapy. If it's carving out time every day or every week to sit down and communicate, if it's wr things down and journaling about what your dreams are and where you guys want to go. What's your mission statement as a couple? Like, actively doing the things you need to do to make sure that there's ultimate clarity in your relationship, that you're actually moving towards those things that you want. And I'll refer people to the Casper Craven episode that we did where he talked about how they were on the verge of divorce and instead of getting divorced, they sat down and they wrote a mission statement together. Of all the. Actually, before it was a mission statement, it was, what are all the things that we both love doing? Just intrinsically we love doing it. And they wrote all this stuff out and they found that 99% of it did not overlap. There was two things in the middle where it was travel and have amazing family experiences, if I remember right.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah, you're right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so they decide, okay, well, since 99 things don't overlap and 2 things do overlap, then we're going to focus on those two things. And they decided to buy a boat and they gave themselves a date because they didn't have the money. So they were going to need to raise the money to buy this boat. And then they were going to structure. He had a business. They were going to structure the business so that he could be away for two years or whatever it was. And they ended up doing it, buying the boat, structuring the company in that way and setting sail. And for two or three years, whatever it ended up being, they sailed around the world with their children and they traveled and had amazing family experiences. And it is this extraordinary, like, example of how they go from almost getting divorced, like this last ditch effort to just sitting down and doing the things you need to do. So allocating time to be together, writing a family mission statement so that they knew what exactly it was they were trying to accomplish, writing out the things they each loved and cared about, regardless of what the other person loved and cared about, and then focusing on those areas of overlap because they wanted to stay together. And so that's like how you do this stuff, that's how you structure this. But you have to know what you want, you have to communicate it and you have to be working together. And if you're not doing those three things, you're really in trouble.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah. And I think people, they just try to compare. Not even, I don't think we even try to. I think it's inevitable. But like, you look at the person next to you that's closest to you and you see how rapidly they're changing compared to you. And you know, it can be hard either way. It can be hard when you see the person next to you, whether it's going to the gym and losing weight, or if you, if it's, you know, developing a growth mindset, if you're seeing the person next to you do really well, like, it can really hinder your enthusiasm, which then can make you stop. So growing together at the same pace, it's going to be very difficult. I just think you need to emotionally manage whether you're the person ahead of the game or the person behind, having that like family goal and staying strong so that it may take you longer to get there.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But it's all about Grace and effort.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Grace and effort, yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What I mean is, if the person is ahead of you, then they need to see that you're putting in the effort.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like, if you're not putting in the effort to grow and get better, that's a problem. But if they see that, all right, right now I'm the one that's ahead. But I really see that they're trying. I really see that they're making effort. Like, then you have the grace to give them that time and space to catch up. And part of grace is knowing inevitably at some point, that's you. At some point you need grace. And that's like a big thing. You know, I was talking to one of our employees before the holiday. They were really having, like, this emotional moment because they were afraid that I was going to think that they weren't working hard and. Which didn't cross my mind, not with this person, because they're a beast. But I was like, like, look, one day I'm going to be in your shoes. I'm going to be the one emotional. I'm going to be struggling. And at that moment, I want your grace so badly that I'm going to, without hesitation or question, extend you grace in those moments where you need it. And it's like, it really becomes this tit for tat thing where it's like when you show empathy, compassion, understanding, grace, all of that, then hopefully the other person feel so good in those moments and so cared for that they will want, like, actively want to do the same for you. That's like, part of what makes a relationship worth all the compromise is that when my time comes, I will have that moment. And you should, like, as the one who's in the lead at that moment, that should be one of the most awesome things is, like, rad. I get to show this person how into them I am and how much I want to. To, like, buoy them and help them feel good and feel better about themselves. And like, those moments to me are some of the most fun when you get to be the one giving grace. When you could be demanding and be like, yo, I'm in the lead here. I'm making more money. Or I'm, you know, the one that's really got their head screwed on tight. But those are the moments where you most need to be extending that hand, helping them back up and, like, relishing that you're confident enough to want to build the other person up, because being in the lead feels rad. But if you take advantage of that and you Just want to stay in the lead. It's like one of the greatest things I ever heard about leaders. Leaders create other leaders. They don't just reign over people, they create other leaders, which means you have to be open to following. And when you can be in a leadership position, and this has been my story as a CEO, has been then coming from the bottom, being like the employee that nobody expected anything from, becoming one of the owners in the company, working my way all the way up to being the CEO of my own company. And in that moment, trying to distribute power to other people so they could feel good, so they could rise up, not lording it over people, and only with the most judicious use. Because, look, I'm not afraid to make a decision. At the end of the day, I have to lead, but only stepping into that and doing that when I feel that the safety of the company is on the line, mind. And if people can do that in their relationship, want other people to rise up, not be afraid to follow, not be afraid to lead either, but not be afraid to follow, then beautiful things happen.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Because it's going to rotate throughout that relationship depending on certain situations. Like you said, there's going to be moments where you need someone to lead or, you know, or you need to follow. But like the one thing this actually also, which I hear a lot and for some reason it just really hit me just now is like, you know, when you inevitably. Will some people inevitably grow apart. And it's interesting how we all do see things is like, it just happens. Like it never just happens, right? If you're always communicating about your wants, your desires, your, Your pain, your pain points in your life, the things that are stressing you out. Like, unless you're always communicating that eventually you will grow apart. But it never happens overnight. So if you're aware that that type of thing can happen, how often do you check in with your partner? That right? Like, it needs to be weekly for sure. And if for whatever reason it can't be weekly because you know, you've got kids or you've got business or whatever, then make it a point to do it every two weeks or every three weeks, because I refuse. And I remember thinking this when someone says, like, oh, you're not the person I want to use, like, thank the Lord I'm not. It just made me realize, wow, we really do all grow in little ways every day. And it's like a kid growing up, right? If you don't see a kid for two years, you're like, oh my God, You've changed so much. Large visually, but if you see an adult and you have or you haven't seen those people for two years and you see them again, there's no visual element to see their change. So you don't necessarily think of them as having changed. And I think that's what happens in relationships. You just see each other every day. You don't necessarily communicate, you don't have those discussions. And before you know it, two years have passed and they've actually emotionally changed, but you haven't seen it coming. So now they seem like a completely different person thing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. God, this is an almost endless question of things that we could touch on. But you've got to value change. You've got to want to see your partner grow. They've got a value change in you. They've got to want to see you grow. You've got to communicate the ways in which you're growing. Well, you've got to communicate the ways in which you're not. So both of us have had to pull the other person aside and say, you're hardening too much. And like, because you've said that to me, I'm like hyper vigilant for that in my own personality and seeing like little changes in myself where it's like, whoa, I am like, I'm getting too tough, too stoic. But not in like the cool stoic philosophy way into, like, not showing emotion, always being, you know, it's not that you're being too even keel, but like that you're, you're leaning too much on your ability to gut check and muscle your way through something. And at least for us, that has come at the cost of playfulness, which is something that we value. And so being willing to say that to your partner and also just being willing to communicate things that you enjoy that you like, even if you're not secure about them, you think that maybe you shouldn't be into it. Like video games. For a long time I was like worried about that, like, I wasn't working hard enough if I was playing video games and.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Or I think of you as like a kid, right?

[Tom Bilyeu]

But I was just like, oh, it, yeah, I like them. I like playing. And then us doing that together has ended up being something really special. But you have to, like, own who you are, own what you want, communicate it, be open to feedback and seeing that none of us change and grow in the the always the best ways possible. Like, you're changing, you're growing in a hundred different dimensions. And some of the changes are bad. And some of the changes are good. Some of them may help you in one way. Like, toughening up really helped me in business, but then there were elements of it that did not help me in my marriage. And so, like, being open and not just being like, what the you talking about? Like, I've had to do this. Like, don't you love this house that we're in?

[Commercial Narrator]

You know what I mean?

[Tom Bilyeu]

And responding like that, being like, whoa, okay, well, maybe there's an element here that I haven't seen. And that, like, that's another thing, like, really getting into what's made us successful. It's in the moment of deepest pride over a change that I've made to myself. Like, toughening up, which was, like, really a source for me of, like, whoa, I've come a long way from, like, this soft guy who was lazy and terrified of confrontation and all that. And then you being like, yeah, but now it's gone too far. The thing that I'm, like, most proud of, right? And then to in that moment, be like, oh, shit. Like, maybe there's an element here that I'm not seeing, and I need to be open to that as well. And I forget the study, but there was, like, the people that are successful, like, one of the things that they do is they can hold two competing ideas in their head at the same time. So this thing, like, toughening up is, like, the thing that's made me powerful and helped me grow. Oh, but by the way, it's also the thing that's potentially going to fuck up your relationship. And so now you need to be able to do both.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And as the wife who saw that in you, I knew, okay, you were proud of it. Like, it's brought you to where you are now. So to just like, like, diminish it or say, you know, I can't believe who you are now. Like, that won't help because you're proud of it, but at the same time, it's not making me feel good because you're bringing that into, let's say, the home environment. And so I remember thinking, how do I approach this? Right? It has to be a moment where you're not stressed. It has to be a moment where I can, like, kind of look at your vibe and be like, are you open to talking? Because you've got to want to it being a talking mood, because if you don't, and that's a bad time to mention it. And then also another thing that I had reminded myself before that was, don't go into it. Like, I'm attacking him. Right. It needs to be. This is why it's bad for us as a couple. And there needs to be no, like, aggression. So I remember saying to you, like, I love you so much. And one thing when we first met, I can't remember these were the exact words, but it's pretty much on point. When we first met, like, I loved how, like you, you're very sweet and, you know, you make me feel a certain way. But recently I get it because you're under a lot of stress because these things are happening in the company, in our life. I understand why you are like this, but I'm feeling like I'm not connecting with you as much anymore. Because when I do, you bring a certain aggression to the table. And that doesn't make me feel good, that doesn't make me feel loved, that doesn't make me feel connected to you. I understand why. But we need to do something about it, right? So. And that's how I approach it. It's like breaking it down. Not being aggressive, not being like, you need to change, understanding it from your perspective, but saying why it doesn't work for me or why that doesn't work for us in our relationship. And so I think that part paired with the fact that you're so willing to hold two competing ideas in your head that we were able to. To maneuver and work through that, and you realizing and us over time, you know, and then even that, it's almost like then we start to go into kind of training mode, right? Where it's like, I then try to show you, oh, see that tone that you just used? That's the tone that I mean. But I don't say like, that's what I mean. I'm like, oh, you see how you said that word? That actually is the word that stung me. Or that's the way that you said it just now. That's what I was talking about the other day. Kind of just given an examples and vice versa. I mean, I've done that too.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. And just to really contradict something we said earlier, for those that really want the advanced class not being punitive with stuff like that, like, while punishment has its place, you have to be so careful with it. And something like that, where you're trying to point something out where you think that they can improve, like you said, it's not like that's exactly it. See, you're doing it right there. You. It's not like that. It's like you've got to want them to win. And the other person who. The one that has to. To change has to want the other person to get the partner that they deserve and want to be right. Like, you've got to want that for them as well. And so it's like, whoa, if I'm doing something that is. Even if it's helping me with something else, but it's diminishing their sense of self or the connection or whatever, like, you've got to want to make that

[Lisa Bilyeu]

change and then do that almost change together. Like, I would say, you know, what is it that you need? Do you need that time to transition from a business to speaking to me as your wife? And if so, like, if it's hard for me to. Because we work in our house, if it's hard for me to go from one room to another because for me, the rooms are what help me mentally separate things. Like, once I'm in the bedroom and you turn to me for work, I kind of give you a dirty look. So I'm like, I'm in my sanctuary room. All right. Bit of a stinking eye. Do you want to say that? Stinky eye. So, yeah. So for me, it's space, right? It's once we're in the bedroom, please don't talk to me about work. And. But for you, it's not. So what is that thing for you and understanding? Like, okay, if you've just come out from a meeting and then you're talking to me, your mind is still in that mode. All right, babe, so do you need me to give you 30 minutes space right from the last meeting that you've had to. When we're hanging out, like, we get that specific. Of what does that person need? And as the partner who wants to see you succeed, how can I help you get there? And that. We do that both ways. Right. We did that with my sickness, with my health situation. We were in it together with my growth. With your growth. Like, everything we do, we try to team up and help each other. Versus, like, yeah, you need to work on that attitude. It doesn't help.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Church.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Church. That's it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think that is it. All right, guys, thank you so much for joining us. Always, always meaningful. And if we're adding value, if you could rate and review on itunes or your podcast app of choice, that would be huge. We've got a goal. We're trying to crack that top 100 podcasts all across itunes. It would be amazingly helpful.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

If you would do that.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Really. Thank you so much. And just also trying to crack my own social @lisabillew on Instagram and womenofimpact packed if you guys want to get on that female empowerment stuff. And then also at Tombiliu, which I guess is where people are listening to this in a way. Impact theory indeed.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right guys, thank you so much. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be a legendary yes us. Wow. The Greek. Yes us everybody. Thank you so much for listening. And if this content is delivering value to you, please go to itunes, go to subscribe, stitcher, rate and review us. That helps us build this community and that is what we are all about right now. Building this community as big as we can to help as many people as we can deliver as much value as possible. And you guys rating and reviewing really helps with that. All right guys, thank you again so much and until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care.

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