Can Peace Ever be Achieved? The Key to Resolving Middle East Conflicts | Omar Baddar - PT 2

Summary

Impact Theory Podcast with Tom Bilyeu
Episode: Can Peace Ever be Achieved? The Key to Resolving Middle East Conflicts | Omar Baddar – PT 2
Date: September 27, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode of Impact Theory continues host Tom Bilyeu’s probing conversation with political analyst and activist Omar Baddar. The focus: why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict remains so intractable, the role of power dynamics, morality, and international alliances, and whether peace is even possible given present realities. Baddar and Bilyeu examine frames of reference, negotiation challenges, historical examples, and the influence of social media and US policy. The dialogue is frank, empathetic, and challenges listeners to see past tribal allegiances to underlying human and geopolitical truths.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Frame and Why the Conflict Persists

• Tom opens by comparing the Cyprus conflict and the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, highlighting how personal traumatic history shapes perceptions and discussing the challenge of finding an "exit ramp" where both sides can save face (02:00-06:30).
  • Quote [02:50] – Tom Bilyeu: "You have to find a way for them to have what I call an exit ramp … where you don’t look like an asshole in front of your constituents."
• Tom questions whether the conflict is primarily a moral, religious, or practical one, noting the importance of shifting discourse to "what's better for our children" (04:19-07:00).

Injustice, Power Imbalance, and Failed Mediation

• Omar argues the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is uniquely intractable because it remains active and unresolved due to a stark "imbalance of power" and lack of meaningful incentive for Israel to compromise (07:13-10:50).
  • Quote [07:24] – Omar Baddar: "The reason why we have not resolved it is because there is an imbalance of power that keeps it from being resolved."
  • US policy has enabled Israeli actions with "impunity," undermining any negotiations, adds Omar, referencing US negotiators who described acting "like Israel's lawyer" (08:45).
• The sports-team mentality and social media have “ruined our discourse,” turning life-and-death politics into tribal spectacle (10:55-12:05).

Loving-Kindness, Empathy, and the Limits of Dialogue

• Tom introduces the idea of loving-kindness meditation as a way to extend empathy to adversaries, citing Nelson Mandela's reconciliatory model post-apartheid and questioning if such connection is possible (12:12-14:36).
• Omar appreciates the principle but stresses a critical limit: while such empathy can “resolve personal tensions,” the scale of suffering in Gaza demands "urgent international accountability," not just interpersonal healing (20:03-22:50).
  • Quote [20:16] – Omar Baddar: "This is a moment of international accountability... there is urgency to ending what is unfolding right now that can't wait."

The Role of Religion: Not the Core, But an Aggravator

• Religion exacerbates tensions but is not the root cause. Omar points to Palestinian Christians suffering similarly to Muslims, debunking the notion of a pure religious conflict (16:48-19:00).

International Politics, The US-Israel Alliance, and Iran’s Role

• Tom and Omar dive into why US pressure doesn't work (“it's never truly been tried consistently”), the regional cop logic dating to the 1967 war, and the distinction between Israel acting in its interests versus serving as a tool for the US (24:38-28:40).
• The power of the Israel lobby shapes US domestic politics around the conflict (28:20-31:33).
• Iran’s role is discussed as a patron of various regional groups, but Omar explains these are indigenous, not mere “proxies.” Iran’s influence is rooted in popular Arab outrage at the Palestinian plight, which the US ignores at its peril (34:44-38:43).
  • Quote [38:44] – Omar Baddar: "If you want to weaken violent political movements in Palestine...resolving the issue of Palestine is an obvious low hanging fruit."

Is Peace Possible With Hamas?

• Tom directly asks if peace can happen with Hamas in power. Omar says yes, referencing past overtures to moderation and recounting double standards regarding Israeli and Palestinian leadership (39:19-42:57).
  • Quote [40:00] – Omar Baddar: "If we say that groups that commit mass atrocities must be eliminated for peace to move forward, the obvious logical conclusion of that is you have to eliminate the Israeli government."
• Emphasizes starting with a ceasefire and gradual confidence-building.

Two-State Solution, Security, and Imbalances of Power

• Omar challenges the logic that Israel can indefinitely dictate terms; Palestinians have already compromised with their willingness to accept only a portion of their historic land (43:31-44:17).

Realpolitik: Aid, Security, and the Risk of Recurrence

• Tom entertains a hypothetical where the US forcibly compels Israel to allow Palestinian self-determination and questions if, in that case, Gaza would build a healthy state or repeat past militarization.
• Omar counters that most Palestinians seek normal life and would seize the opportunity for a better future, though acknowledges not all violence would end. Despair, not ideology, has fueled radicalization (47:00-49:01).

The Reality of Deeply Embedded Inequality

• Tom and Omar explore tiered citizenship in Israel, referencing discriminatory laws and government officials’ openly racist and supremacist stances (53:39-55:09).
  • Quote [55:12] – Omar Baddar: "[Minister] Smotrich... wants to separate Arab and Jewish babies in maternity wards."
• Emphasis on the growing entrenchment of racist attitudes within Israeli politics and society.

Universal Principles & Moral Double Standards

• Omar pushes for “moral universality”—the same rights and constraints for all, arguing that current US conduct amounts to running the world “like a mafia” (59:00-62:47).

What Should Israel’s Response Have Been to October 7?

• Omar: Israel should have acknowledged its own role in creating an unsustainable situation, ended the blockade and occupation, and demanded perpetrators face trial—a reciprocal but humane response (63:06-65:36).
  • Quote [63:13] – Omar Baddar: "I would come take on the podium and say, we've realized that we've created a situation that is untenable... And so we are going to end the unlawful blockade and end the illegal occupation. And in exchange, we want justice..."

US Political Choices: Kamala Harris or Donald Trump?

• Omar is deeply disillusioned with both US parties: Kamala would likely be marginally better, but continued complicity in "genocide" deepens his distaste for harm reduction logic this cycle. Trump’s policies, he notes, were even more destructive regarding Palestine and set the environment for escalation (66:06-73:00).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Tribalism of Discourse:
  "[On social media] …it is as if they're watching a sporting match… like, you either did good or bad… wow, this isn't a sport." – Tom Bilyeu [05:20]

• Human Decency and Its Limit:
  "Genocide in Gaza is not the kind of thing in which we can just have a small minor disagreement…" – Omar Baddar [11:18]

• On Reconciliation Models:
  "Mandela became a uniting figure after the political injustice was undone." – Omar Baddar [22:35]

• US-Israel Policy:
  "They're worried about picking a fight with the Israel lobby." – Omar Baddar [29:00]

• International Standards:
  "From now on, the same rules apply for everyone... If something is right for me, it's right for you." – Omar Baddar [60:37]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:00 – Tom frames the heart of the conflict with a personal story
• 07:13 – Omar explains the power imbalance and role of US enablement
• 12:12 – Discussion of loving-kindness and empathy
• 16:48 – Omar addresses the role of religion
• 20:03 – Distinction between personal connection vs. urgent international action
• 24:38 – Tom and Omar on the US-Israel relationship and strategic alliance
• 31:50 – Discussion of Iran’s nuclear ambitions and alliance dynamics
• 39:19 – Can peace happen if Hamas remains?
• 43:31 – Compromises and the two-state solution logic
• 53:39 – The reality of structural inequality within Israel
• 62:47 – What should Israel’s response to Oct. 7 have been?
• 66:06 – US election: Biden/Harris vs. Trump analysis

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Tone & Style

The conversation is earnest, sometimes impassioned, and both analytical and personal. Tom’s characteristic curiosity and search for root causes meets Omar’s sharp moral clarity and insistence on seeing the structural dimensions of suffering and power.

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This summary captures the breadth and nuance of a difficult discussion designed to challenge assumptions, pierce tribal thinking, and push towards both honesty and empathy—even in places of ongoing tragedy.

Transcript

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[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm Tom Bilyeu and welcome to Impact Theory. Let's dive right back into Part two with Omar Badar. What would you do if you stepped inside the Israeli frame of reference, meaning their frame of reference as reported, not the frame of reference you have of them and step inside of that, but the frame of reference as they report it themselves? How would you negotiate maintaining a Jewish state?

[Omar Badar]

If so I'm arguing on behalf of a Jewish state and yeah, I want

[Tom Bilyeu]

so for me this is where we start getting into the real meat and potatoes of why we are stuck here. So in fact let me draw a parallel real fast. So my wife's family got caught up in the invasion of Cyprus by the Turks and her stepmom was one of the people that was forcibly evicted from her home. She thought she was going to be gone for a weekend and she ended up being gone for whatever 40 years and surprise, you've now been evicted and they drew a line on the island and everybody's gotten along with their business. Now of course Greece will occasionally ask like hey, we want some help, we want to resolve this. But the reason that's not going to go anywhere is you've now had 40ish years, I don't remember the exact number of people living there in those homes. And so while it is absolutely gut wrenching that my stepmother in law and you can make her cry just by bringing it up, I mean for her it's still very fresh but she's never going back like that. Now you're just going to revisit that Trauma on whoever has grown up there and raise their kids. And, you know, four years, a long ass time. Yeah. And for whatever reason, for the most part, Cyprus has just got on with life. It was like, yep, we just lost half of our island. And that really sucked. And if they had the military power, I'm sure they would have fought back right then and there. But they didn't. And so they said, cool, we don't want an eternity, a bloodshed. And they just rolled with it. Yeah. So when I look at this conflict, like there is some sticking point that isn't about injustice. From where I'm sitting, this is about something else that I don't know that we've gotten to yet. I don't even know that I understand yet. But when I step inside the Israeli frame of reference, as reported, and I don't just assume that secretly they want to take everything, I go, I have a tiger by the tail. And some part of me knows I can't hold on to this tiger forever. It's no way for me to live. It's no way for the tiger to live. But I've grabbed a tiger by the tail. And even if you just start the story with me grabbing the tiger, they're pissed off now because I've grabbed their tail and they're not going to be good with that. But if I let go, I get bitten. And so I'm now in a quandary. How do I let go of the tail in a way that is responsible.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Now we live in a fantasy land here where, hey, we're all human. So we can just say, I would like to let go, but please don't bite me.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Largely because there's a thousand people here with guns and if you bite me, they're all going to shoot you. And in that, there's some sticking point that still makes it impossible for both sides to be like, yeah, cool, like, let go. Here are the things that we're going to be good with. And so the reason I was asking, is this a land dispute or is this a moral quandary? If this is a moral quandary and a question of a cultural belief in justice, people will do crazy things to get justice. And now you're going to have. If both sides see it that way, it's going to be endless tit for tat because we're here for justice. Also, if this is a religious thing and if this is really about what God wants for each of us, again gonna be intractable. But if, on the other hand, this is People that don't yet see a clear vision for how they make their children's lives better than theirs, but that's what they really want, then it's solvable. But there, there is. That's so obvious. I know. That question has been asked a gazillion times. I don't even need to hear it. I know. So it's obviously dismissed. It never comes up in debates. Nobody ever talks about it. I feel like a lone voice in the wilderness going, hey, why are we not asking the question of how do you get both sides to say what's better for my children? And then let's do that and then we get lost in the weeds. Now, again, I said this earlier, but I think it bears repeating for people to understand my position. The reason getting lost in the weeds to me is fruitless at a definitional level is that people will look at the same thing and they will see something different. And if we don't share a view of the facts, which is extremely easy, if we don't share a view of the facts, then we'll just sit there and debate the facts endlessly. People will break even deeper into tribes. Researching you has been so eye opening to see. Oh, people just get into encampments and you can watch the comments and people are just like, it is as if they're watching a sporting match and it's like, well, if they're on Team Omar, then they're. Whatever you say, they're just stoked for it. They already believe in it. They're cheering for you. Like, you either did good or bad. Like, oh, you dunked on him here, you embarrassed them there and the other side's doing the exact same thing. And I'm like, wow, this isn't a sport. By allowing yourself to engage with this like a sport is going to leave us here. But again, bringing it back to Cyprus and many other places that have had a similar thing. I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying that there weren't tragedies stacked on tragedies.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm just saying what is it about this one?

[Omar Badar]

I wish I had a note, a paper and pen to. Because I had so many things that. It's all right at this point, just I had so many things as you were talking of things that I would like to, to kind of address. Look in terms. I don't think that people see eye to eye on the conflicts that have been solved. That's not the point of contrast. It's not as if everybody agreed about you Know Cyprus and Turkey and Greece, and that's why that has been solved. I think there are still going to be diverging perspectives for me, what's wrong with Palestine and Israel and why it feels intractable. It's still ongoing, right? You can talk about refugee situations that happened so many years ago. If the conflict is settled, then, yes, all you have is memories and, you know, remembering what it's like to have lived once in this village and you don't anymore. And it's a little sad, but it's not a continuous source of tension. And the problem is that we have not resolved the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And I come back to the fact that the reason why we have not resolved it is because there is an imbalance of power that keeps it from being resolved. Compromise happens when both sides have a reason to compromise. And what you have right now is one side destroying the other and paying a relatively minimal price. Right. That's what was unique about October 7th, is that Israel, for the first time in a very, very long time, paid a significant cost for the fact that they are denying Palestinians freedom and human rights. For the most part, the way Israel has existed for most of the the past several decades is US Provided impunity and US Provided immunity, means they get to do whatever the hell they want to at minimal cost. And that creates a dynamic in which you cannot solve the problem. You've had negotiators from the American team, Aaron David Miller, during the peace process negotiations, whose complaint was far too often we behaved like Israel's lawyer. Those were his words. And the US Is not being a reasonable mediator that is trying to bring two sides together. They're saying they're constantly. The pressure is on one side. The idea that what Israel wants is reasonable. What Palestinian wants. Oh, come on. It's too much. Why don't you guys just settle for this? Shouldn't you be happy that we're giving you something? There's a constant attitude that Palestinians ought to be happy with crumbs while enabling Israel to do whatever it wants that keeps this conflict from being solved. On the question of sports and comments, by the way, I think that's a really fascinating conversation because I do think that this is one of the ways in which social media has kind of ruined our discourse in one of many ways, really. And the idea is that we trivialize these things to the point to where people, that's how they engage with them, that you end the search for solutions, for serious, meaningful engagement. For me, and that's my criticism, for example, of somebody like destiny is Destiny, from my perspective is not a particularly well informed on this topic and yet one of the most difficult and challenging opponents I've ever debated on this topic. He's just really good at it. It's a natural talent. I think you've described him at some point as having high intellectual horsepower, which I think is correct. But it does not feel like there is investment, sort of. There is a huge consumption of Israeli talking points and a way to throw these things back at you in order to win an argument. The human shields being an obvious one. If the Israeli Supreme Court is siding against the Israeli military on this practice, they're calling it human shields and they're saying it's wrong and needs to stop. What's the incentive for somebody like destiny to go, oh no, actually it's not so bad, it's just fine. And siding with the Israeli military against the Israeli Supreme Court, from my perspective, it seems like if you're engaging with this in good faith, that's an easy one to say, okay, fine, you're right about that. But some people do argue for the sake of arguing. It does feel like it's about teams and I'm going to prove that I'm going to win this argument by know, owning you and shutting you down and dunking on you and so on. And that has manifested in a way that I think is really, really unhelpful. And you see people sometimes even talk about politics in a way that is similar to sports of we cheer for different teams, but then after the game we're just still pals and high five. And for me, genocide in Gaza is not the kind of thing in which we can just have a small minor disagreement and oh yeah, we debated and everything is great. Like for me this is really meaningful and consequential and. And nothing comes as important to the topic of the mass slaughter of a people. And that to me is not something that you can overcome as the way that you would talk about just cheering for two different teams at a sporting event and just getting along afterwards. As much as I try to say that I think we have too much polarization and division, but for me also part of it. There ought to be fundamental human decency, that there is a wide range of topics in which I can disagree with someone and we can still be friends. One of my closest friends is obsessed with the Second Amendment and thinks owning AR15s is really important. I don't agree at all. But it's not a problem between us that we can have this disagreement because for Me, there isn't fundamental indecency at the core of somebody who believes certain things in a way that for me to be morally fine with what's happening in Gaza feels like something much, much more serious that it's more difficult for me to kind of overlook and treat like a sport.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay. Have you ever run the thought exercise of if you ever heard of loving kindness meditation?

[Omar Badar]

I have not.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's actually, it sounds dumb, but it is so useful. So loving kindness meditation is where you sit and you meditate and you imagine yourself pushing a bubble of love out every time I explain. This sounds so dumb, but it really works. You're first, it's a bubble that envelops you and you have love for yourself and then your family and then your friends and then your neighbors. And then eventually you try to push the bubble out to the whole world. I would love a man that understands this conflict as well as you do to find threads of connection to a well intentioned person that has the like die hard Israel mentality. Because if you know, this is sort of the, the great man of history. So arguably my greatest hero is Nelson Mandela. And what I found fascinating about Nelson Mandela was when he came out of prison, his whole thing was about unity and you wanted to bring people together. And so is going to take people on both sides that, that see a path together. And right now what I see are really smart people on both sides that see why the other side is an asshole. Why and that's trivial, why the other side is hell bent on killing and death and that they, the other side is so wrongheaded and wants to kill us that we can never truly find peace. And I hear that coming out of both sides. So I know how naive and cheesy this sounds, but I actually don't know. There's a, I don't know that there's another way. There is a very mechanistic way which is if you can get a human to believe that tomorrow will be better than today and if they take a certain set of actions, they can bring that about. There's hardwiring in the human mind that that will pull you forward on that. Now the only thing I don't understand the religions on either side enough to know if that normal injection point breaks.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so my stepmother in law, for instance, gets kicked out of her home, becomes a refugee, she ends up moving to England, studying, finding love, having kids. And she just was like, I'm just going to focus on the future. I'm going to focus on beautiful things. And I'M not. I'm just not going to think about that. And they lost everything. So it's like. That would have been brutal, but she switched her view to something more positive. And so I would love for somebody of your knowledge and wisdom to find those points of connection to this is. So as a CEO, you end up mediating for these incredible humans that you have on your team, but you're watching them and you're like, how dumb can one human act? This is really crazy. What the fuck are you guys doing? And I have learned that you have to find a way for them to have what I call an exit ramp. People talked a lot about this with Putin, but you never hear people, or at least I don't never hear people talking about this with the Israeli Palestinian conflict. And it goes something like this. You have a worldview. I'm not going to convince you to see my worldview. I know that. So now I need to figure out how I find an off ramp for you where you don't look like an asshole in front of your constituents.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And that has to happen on both sides. And so that everybody can feel good moving forward. And every time I try to imagine that, I keep running into what. Even after hearing your arguments and even being able to articulate your arguments back to you, it feels like there. There's an invisible thing that I have not hit yet at this point in the conversation. I suspect it's religious in nature, but I don't know that. And so no one wants the off ramp. Now, I took a note a minute ago. This could be the most naive question that I've asked in a series of naive questions. Is this really all just about the Al Aqsa Mosque and the West Bank? And that's really the game. And until we settle that, everything else is a charade.

[Omar Badar]

So I don't think so. I think that religion amplifies the tensions a little bit, but I don't think that this is the fundamental issue at the end of the day. By the way, just for the record, Palestinian Christians are just as oppressed as Palestinian Muslims. So this is not like a uniquely Muslim Jewish thing. I know some people try to paint it that way, but some of the most prominent people advocating for Palestinian rights are Palestinian Christians. Edward Said, Hanan Ashrawi, the list, even in the United States, so many. You know, somebody quit the Biden administration over Biden's policy towards Israel and Palestine. It was a guy by the name of Tarek Habash, who is Christian. So I don't think that Religion really is at the core of this, but obviously it inflames tensions a little bit more. I think that it is ultimately about a better future in which people can envision their children having a way to live in that land. Dignity and freedom. I think that is ultimately at its core. And it's a status quo in which white people get that and the other don't. And we're trying to figure out how to get past that. Now you bring up the love thing, which I don't think is cheesy at all, by the way. I do think that it's one of the primary critiques that I have of. I think it's our political discourse in general, but certainly exists within my camp as well, is kind of seeing people who disagree with us or who are uninformed as the enemy in some way. And for me, I think that disinformation and misinformation are the enemy. And sure, there are powers that propagate that intentionally, and for me, that's the opponent. But ultimately, when I think of your average uninformed person who just doesn't know enough and gets it wrong just because that's the media that is available in the mainstream, frankly, that's what people consume. To me, it is absolutely critical to reach to those people with less love and kindness. And that does extend to people who are on the other side of this issue. And there is a way in which I've seen it. A close personal friend of mine is a Russian Jewish guy who's talking to a lot of his family members who are Israeli, and he's having that struggle internally and trying to figure out how he can convince them that Israel is on the wrong track and that Israeli policy is wrong and so on. And he's run into a ton of resistance.

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[Omar Badar]

He's within the community. He's not an outsider of his community. And so I don't think that this is really the dividing line that I'm simply at the point to where, while I completely acknowledge that approaching the things with our common humanity and decency and the kindness that we show one another in interactions and is incredibly helpful of resolving personal tensions. And you can absolutely get to a place to where with people that you have very, very strong political, moral, whatever disagreements with, you can get to a place to where you see each other's humanity really well. The scale of what we're witnessing in Palestine and Israel cannot wait for these kinds of personal connections to eventually develop into something. To me, this is a moment of international accountability. So I'm. And for what it's worth, by the way, personally, I've identified as agnostic. I don't believe in anything anymore. And I just keep coming back to the fact that we have a situation in which to try to resolve this through love and kindness is possible, but there is an urgency to ending what is unfolding right now that can't wait for us to naturally develop positive feelings and let things play out and see how we can do this through personal connections. There is an apartheid regime condemned by every major human rights organization in the world. Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, Israeli human rights organizations critical of their own government, the United Nations Human Rights Council, you name it. Consensus on the fact that this is an apartheid regime practicing an illegal occupation and committing, whether you want to agree on the word genocide or not, certainly unspeakable war crimes and crimes against humanity. That's not in dispute. And there is a question right now whether we should continue arming them or not. There is a time for love and personal connection, but there is an urgency to saying we have to put an end to this. And you put an end to it by making sure that you don't have the weapons to carry on these atrocities anymore. And then after that is settled, after you put an end to the emergency that is unfolding, when we no longer have thousands of people being killed on a regular basis, then we can sit down and talk about how to build a meaningful connection between Israelis and Palestinians. I keep going back to apartheid South Africa because I think that's a really, really important example of truth and reconciliation. Came after apartheid fell. Mandela became a uniting figure after the political injustice was undone. And he led by example of how to be uniting and not to regurgitate old traumas and hatreds and so on. And you have a scale of an injustice that is unfolding before our eyes. And it is simply premature to be talking about building personal connections and understanding each other in the face of something this horrific that is unfolding. And just on the question of genocide, I know that the name that the word invokes a lot of feelings that people dispute it. To me there is Arie Nair. His family fled the Holocaust, he's Jewish, was born in Germany, founded Human Rights Watch, headed the ACLU for a while. And kind of just the respect that people have for him as an authority on these kinds of issues is unparalleled. And he said at the beginning of this, I thought Israel was only committing war crimes in Gaza. I thought that they were reckless in the way they were targeting civilians. But after examining this a little bit more closely and seeing the systematic starvation and destruction of society in Gaza, I can't help but conclude that this is a genocide. I know this is one person's opinion, but it's not a random person. Somebody who is Jewish, is an authority on these kinds of issues and started with sympathy for Israel and wanting to make excuses for Israel's conduct and could not help by looking at the fact, but conclude that Israel is systematically destroying Palestinian society in Gaza.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, now let's really complicate the issue and go back to what you were saying about this is a moment for international intervention. I have a hypothesis as a layman that that isn't going to work. And the reason I don't think that that's going to work is it hasn't worked so far. And Israel seems like they are more than prepared to continue to escalate. And Iran is lurking somewhere in the background. So I think it is necessary to confront the Iran of it all. What is Iran's role in this moment?

[Omar Badar]

I will push back just on your setup and I'll get to Iran real quick. I don't think we've ever tried meaningful pressure on Israel. There have been a few occasions in the distant past. There was a time in which Ronald Reagan warned Israel to instantly put an end to their bombing of Beirut and Lebanon because they were causing mass casualties. And it's crazy to think that talk about how much our political discourse shifted. Reagan compared it to the Holocaust and said, you have to put an end to it. And Israel immediately pulled the plug because they understood that Reagan was really putting his foot down in a very serious way.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So we've been in this situation since the end of World War II, effectively, so literally in whatever, 70 years.

[Omar Badar]

But we need consistency. That's the thing, right? Like we have the individual instance instances, but if the US puts its foot

[Tom Bilyeu]

down, there's a reason. So this is why nations build alliances that I'm sure there are things that Israel has to offer to other people that makes them not want to abandon their ally. So for whatever reason, which admittedly on this I literally know nothing, but if I look at the way that they're being treated, I say, okay, well clearly there are, there's a mutually beneficial relationship, even if I don't understand it.

[Omar Badar]

Yes and no. So right. When you think of, of why their relationship became what it was, the special relationship, it came on the back of the 1967 war in which Israel defeated Egypt, Syria and Jordan in six days and just like blew everybody out of the water, captured all this massive territory. They tripled their size. And I think the US was interested in being allies with a country that is that powerful. And so they thought this is a good, you know, the US had different countries in different parts of the world that play regional cop, basically local cops. And having Israel be that for the United States seemed like a no brainer. And so Israeli military funding, US military funding for Israel jumped a hundredfold very, very quickly after that. And that is the natural alliance is that you have a region that is strategically important, they've got a lot of oil in the region, very important resource for the world. And you want to be allied with a government which in contrast to other, like for example, the Saudi government is allied with the U.S. but the government does not represent its people. It's an authoritarian regime. And so there's the possibility of them being overthrown and things could switch overnight the way they happened in Iran. There was an Iranian dictator that was close with the United States. We actually overthrew an Iranian Democratic Prime Minister Mossadegh back in the 1950s and stole the Shah who was brutal. And then there was this Islamic revolution more recently that overthrew the US backed dictator. So there's a fear that this thing could happen when we ally ourselves exclusively with authoritarian governments that don't really represent their people. And Israel offered a unique opportunity for us to be allied with a government that effectively does represent its people. It's more or less democratic for its Jewish population. And there was some level of stability and military power that came together that made, it made sense for us to be close with them Now I've examined. It's. Interestingly, this is what I wrote my master's thesis on as sort of like, because you had a lot of arguments of people saying the US doesn't benefit anything from Israel. Israel's taking advantage of the US is the tail wagging the dog. It's the backwards relationship. And you've had many other people on the other side of this saying, no, no, no, no, the Israel is there to serve U.S. interests. That's why there is an alliance. And the U.S. as an imperial force, benefits from having Israel. And I wanted to resolve what that relationship was and how it actually works. And I noticed that there is a contrast between what Israel does in Palestine versus when Israel oversteps on major significant US Strategic interests. So when they tried to sell military technology to China back in 2005, George W. Bush took a stance, very aggressive one, refused to meet with Israeli diplomats and told them they need to back off. And they backed off and they issued a public apology. So you can see that the US Is in charge when it matters, but then when it comes to how Israel treats the Palestinians, there isn't an overriding strategic reason why the US Cares about Palestinians. And. And this is where you see the Israel lobby in the U.S. bully the U.S. administration on multiple occasions. You had it in 2002. You have it with the building of settlements in general. You constantly have the US Telling Israel you need to stop these provocative acts of building settlements and put an end to it. And Israel just constantly kicks sands in the US face and just keeps expanding settlements. They did not run up against a collection of US strategic interests that would come together to push the Israel lobby down. So in a way, I can admit that Israel is useful to the US in some ways. But I'll say that what Israel is doing In Palestine is 100% harmful to US interests. There is no reason to back it up. And we've just. This is where the Israel lobby has an outsized influence. They have a ton of money. They're not afraid to show it. They brag about it. There was a time in which somebody who worked at aipac, talking to Jeffrey Goldberg, a pro Israel journalist at the Atlantic, pulled up a napkin off the table and said, see this napkin? Within, you know, within 24 hours, I can get the signatures of 70 senators on it. Just kind of bragging at the fact that they can get their way. And that's because they do spend their money and they push their weight around in Washington. They oust members of Congress who are critical of Israel and They try to support people who are. Their power has diminished slightly. There is a change in public opinion in America where young people really diverge from the older generation and they're beginning to really push back on the Israel Lobby in some ways. But to me, that dynamic on why we back them when they do what they do in the west bank and Gaza, that is absolutely not in America's interest. And that is the Israel lobby bullying American politicians into going along with it. To the point to where we've created a political culture in the US where you just. Our politicians sound like robots, no matter what you ask them. It's like, I support Israel has the right to defend itself. Two state solution. It's just an empty slogan that doesn't mean anything. They just say it in response to any thing that they're asked about, like kind of glitching bots. And that's kind of where you can tell that this is not, you know, this isn't driven by any kind of American strategy where we have a vision of where we want to go and not. And Biden keeps leaking to the press that he has frustrations with Netanyahu and why won't he do this and why won't he do that? And he tells him, you're bombing in Gaza and is indiscriminate and it goes too far. And Rafah is a red line. And time and again, Netanyahu disregards him. And you have a US Administration that is basically worried about picking a fight with the Israel lobby. And what that looks like is the Israel lobby mobilizing pro Israel members of Congress to attack the administration for, quote, unquote, being too hard on Israel. They just don't want to deal with it. The Palestinians don't seem like a significant enough reason to invest this political capital, like, in defense of Palestinians. Let's not have this fight. We have other national priorities. And that's how. That's part of. Of how Israel keeps moving in a more extreme direction. We keep indulging it when it doesn't really serve American interests, even if fundamentally there is an alliance there that makes sense in a different set of circumstances.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, I think that the. Whether they serve America's interests is going to come down to. Look, some of this could just be money and politics. So setting that aside for now, but serving America's interests again. Coming back to Iran.

[Omar Badar]

Sorry, I missed. Yeah, I missed your main question.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, no, not at all. But I do want to better understand that. So you've got Iran that's obviously been pushing for years to try and become a nuclear power, which less nuclear powers would be better, not more, for what

[Omar Badar]

it's worth, not nuclear weapons. It seems like everybody who's investigated Iran have said that they're not in the process of developing nuclear weapons. They are developing peaceful nuclear energy that then has the potential of being shifted into weapons capacity. But there has been zero evidence of the fact that they're developing nuclear weapons. I just think that that's a note that is worth raising simply because Israel is a nuclear armed country and we constantly have this discourse about how our friend can have it but our foes can't. And that's a double standard that we ought to question as well.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, I mean now just speaking as somebody that lives in America, yes, our friends can have what they want and our foes get nothing. That I think would be weird to approach any other way. But going back to. Okay, so one, if you're looking sideways at Iran, which I suppose I am in as much as it makes me tense the tensions between the US and Iran, so I'm always a little skeptical, but I don't know enough about Iran, so I'm certainly on exploratory mission here. But it doesn't seem crazy to think that you develop as much of your program as you can under the guise of energy and then if you get a chance, you switch over to the weapons. So I've heard it said that what's really going on with Israel and Lebanon, what's going on with Israel and Gaza is actually about Iran trying to create a seven or eight front war against Israel to weaken them so that they can, I don't know, at some point launch an all out offensive, take them over, eliminate them as a state. What's your take on that? Is that just crazy talk or it's

[Omar Badar]

got elements that are accurate, but the cohesive picture I think is not. And I think that here's a way to think about it. Just think of the relationship between the US and Israel. It's an alliance. There is a patron. The US is the patron. We're the ones who give them all the money and weapons. But that doesn't mean that Israel does whatever the US wants. It doesn't mean that every time Israel does something that's the US moving them.

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[Omar Badar]

And there's a similar relationship between Iran and a bunch of groups in the region. And again, just the history that I recounted is relevant because this all started with the US Overthrowing a democratic government in Iran, installing a brutal dictator, and then this revolution that came, a religious revolution that overthrew the US backed dictator, and extreme hostility towards the US and the hostage crisis and all that. Obviously we're familiar with the history. And now you have in the region, kind of, there's really three teams if you want to think about it, but there are two main teams. One is the US team, and that's Israel and other governments that are allied in one form or another with the US that's the Egyptian government, the Jordanian government, the Saudi government, the Emirati government, and so on. And you have then an axis that what they call themselves, the axis of resistance, which is resistance to US Empire and hegemony in the region. And that is Iran and its allies in Iraq, in Syria, in Lebanon and in Yemen right now as the kind of like the counter force. And they have narratives. I mean, ultimately this is about geopolitics. This is about countries that want to spread their influence in the region. And Iran has a pretty powerful narrative that is built on the injustice that Palestinians are suffering. And it gives them enormous leverage in a region that is deeply frustrated with the way Israel is getting away with treating Palestinians the way it does. And this is a major point of weakness for the United States, that we talk all this lofty rhetoric about freedom and democracy and human rights, and yet we're arming and funding the destruction of Palestinian society with the most horrible abuses and denial of freedom for Palestinians. That speaking out of both sides of our mouths has not gone unnoticed on the region. And so even the populations of rulers that are pro US, they're terrified of their populations on this particular question. So you have the Egyptian government. The rhetoric is anti Israel, even though the policy is effectively pro Israel. The same thing with Jordan. The majority of people who live in Jordan are of Palestinian origin. And the US Is putting its allies in the region in a very, very difficult spot where they want to be allied with the U.S. but the price is so high in terms of public opinion. And Iran is capitalizing on that in a very, very aggressive way. And so they do have a patronage, a patronage relationship with some of the powers like Hezbollah and the Houthis, where they supply them with weapons and money. But I think it would be wrong to describe these as simply an extension of Iran or tools of Iran. Hezbollah in Lebanon is an authentic Lebanese organization and political movement and they represent a significant portion of the Lebanese society. The same thing with the Houthis in Yemen. They represent a significant portion of the Yemeni population. And because they're willing to take a more antagonistic role with Israel and the United States and the Saudi government and so on, Iran is more than happy to jump on that and provide backing and assistance. So it's a natural alliance in a sense of these two axes. And if you want to weaken again, you keep coming back to the same issue, which is that if you're interested in weakening violent political movements in Palestine that are saying liberation can only come through violence, if you want to weaken your regional foes, resolving the issue of Palestine is an obvious low hanging fruit. And day in and day out, the US says we support a two state solution, the UN takes a vote on the two state solution, the US intervenes and vetoes, and Iran says, look, they're hypocrites, it's just all lofty American rhetoric. But when push comes to shove, they're more than happy to arm and continue and defend the apartheid regime that rules Israel and all the crimes that they are committing. And that's a very, very potent thing. So from a purely geopolitical perspective, no denying that Iran does play a role in the fact that they are

[Tom Bilyeu]

the

[Omar Badar]

major power in that axis that is defiant towards the US and Israel, a way to undermine them would be to take away the biggest grievance that the region has, which is the question of Palestine and lack of freedom for Palestinians.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, if for Hamas to stay in place and us actually solve this so we could remove from Iran their biggest weapon, could peace ever happen with Hamas still in place?

[Omar Badar]

I believe so. And that's a reference. I mean, I don't know how long it'll take at this point. Obviously things are in a very, very different place. But it's that signaling towards moderation that happened when they won the election in 2006. Jimmy Carter was in talks with Hamas and reported back that he sees that there's potential to work with them, verified that the election was democratic and that they're basically willing to moderate and play ball. We're many, many years removed from that. So I can't tell you that you can snap your finger and everything goes back to normal. But to me rather, you know, this obsession with Removing Hamas from power, I think, is extremely misguided. If we say that groups that commit mass atrocities must be eliminated for peace to move forward, the obvious logical conclusion of that is you have to eliminate the Israeli government. Because no party in this entire region between, you know, between the river and the sea and Palestine has committed greater atrocities than the Israeli military has. But we don't think that's a reasonable starting point. We don't say you have to decapitate the Israeli government, then we can talk peace. You accept that this is an existing structure, and part of what you do is that you have to make peace with unsavory characters. And that means sitting down and talking. I think it's very similar. I think that there is reasonable reservations that people have on Hamas. It's not crazy to think that they're not the most prone towards flexibility and negotiation or anything like that, but at the same time, they're the structure that exists. And I think that engaging them as a step towards trying to find a solution, a peaceful solution, I think is a reasonable way to move forward.

[Tom Bilyeu]

How do you deal with the fact that they've said we'll do October 7th

[Omar Badar]

over and over and over? Oh, boy. If I wanted to recount to you how many genocidal Israeli statements have been made by Israeli leaders, the list is endless. It's not about what rhetoric people use at any given point. I think it's about whether you think that there is room to move people or not. And starting with something as simple as a ceasefire. They're saying, we'll give up all the hostages, just end the war. And then Netanyahu found a reason to say no to that. They insisted on a temporary ceasefire. And then finally Hamas buckled under American pressure on the Qatari government and said, okay, fine, temporary six week ceasefire and we'll give you back the hostages. And Israel still found a reason to say no because they said they want to leave troops in Gaza to control this corridor and that corridor and what have you. So I think you start with, again, ending the onslaught, getting a basic and simple agreement as a ceasefire. And then we can see where we can go from there towards building some kind of comprehensive peace agreement. But along the way in which this has been promising, the primary obstacle has always been the Israeli government. It has been for decades now that they are the primary impediment towards resolving the conflict. And you see it in the UN votes. That's where it's a major demonstration. The UN General assembly votes on the question of Palestine. It's always the Entire world on one side saying Israel has to withdraw from the occupied territories. And then the US and Israel and a couple of tiny countries that they bullied into voting along with them. There's a sharp contrast between the way people around the world view this and we really are an outlier in our insistence on Israel blocking the possibility of a peaceful solution and insisting that the only way the American rhetoric, the only way there's going to be peace is through negotiations is. Well, you've got an imbalance of power between two parties and you've watched what it looks like when they negotiate. Palestinians were never consulted when Israel was created. They never had to okay it. Why is it that Israel has to okay a Palestinian state? Why is that a requirement from one side and not the other? And instead we just keep funding this occupation indefinitely and saying only when Israel feels good about having those talks and having them lead somewhere is when something could happen.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, this is where I think your worldview of this is largely. Not exclusively, but this is largely a moral question. And they need to do the right thing runs into realpolitik that this is. Israel is in a much stronger position both militarily and in an alliance perspective. And so I imagine some of this is just. They're not going to give up something that they don't absolutely need to give up. Again, I'm not defending it. I'm just saying you're right. This is where.

[Omar Badar]

That's the thing. I think what you're saying is absolutely correct. Which is where the two state solution, compromise came from for a lot of Palestinians. Two states where they only get the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem is just such a lot of people actually consider it unacceptable. They think it's way too far compromised that you give up the overwhelming majority of historic Palestine that Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from. And yet it was the position of the Palestinian leadership and had the support of public opinion of Palestinians who lived in the occupied territories for a reason. It is that recognition of the fact that there is an imbalance of power and we have to compromise. It just can't be. You live in a cage. That's the compromise Palestinians are not willing to go for. They're willing to go for a reasonable two state solution based on the 67 borders. Even though that is ceding a lot. That is a major Palestinian compromise. Let's run a thought experiment.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So, all right, let's say that we could convince Israel. Guys, this is dumb. You've been fighting over this for a very long time. If you have a secret Desire, you're going to take everything over. We, America, are going to pull out. Never going to let it happen. So now it's time for you guys to. You have to end the blockade. You've got to let these guys start doing their own thing, building a life for themselves. And let's fantasy, fantasy, fantasy land. America says, israel, we love you to death, and we are so glad that you're our special partner. But we are now a big hammer. And if you, if either one of you messes with the other, we smash down on whoever did the bad thing. And what do you think would happen at that point? Because let's say that the floodgates of aid unlock again and they're flowing into Palestine. What makes me nervous is if you have Hamas in control, whenever you're hiring somebody, you always say the most. The best predictor of future success is past success. So what did Hamas do with the funds that they got before they built these incredible tunnels? They are really incredible, but obviously all military all the time. They didn't even let civilians in there when civilians had no place to go during the bombings. So it's like, that doesn't feel like a good use of funds. That. That feels like. And feel is the right word. It feels like, from my perspective, somebody who's here for justice and they are not interested in actually getting their state. So I worry that, given that they did not get what they wanted, which I still don't have a clear definition, like if they get Gaza, as Gaza stands today, no new settlements, maybe even a couple quick land swaps so that they're not intermingled, and you just draw a line and say, yeah, settlements are

[Omar Badar]

not an issue in Gaza right now. Like when Israel withdrew the settlers, like,

[Tom Bilyeu]

that was the west bank problem.

[Omar Badar]

West bank is huge problem, because the very, very deeply embedded, to the point where there is almost no way to extricate them at this point.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right, let's forget that for a second, because I want to experiment. Yeah, exactly. So do you trust. I know you have huge trust issues

[Omar Badar]

with Israel because you believe that they

[Tom Bilyeu]

want it all, and that's just the whole game. But remember, in this fantasy, America is going to act as a hammer. So if they make a move for it, boom. Do you think that Palestine would take that aid and build a thriving economy, or are we going to find ourselves with more military buildup?

[Omar Badar]

No, I think we would have. And again, I'm sorry if I keep going back to this, but I think it's just such a demonstrable example of the beginning of the peace process, what the Palestinian Authority was focused on is institution building and trying to make life as normal as possible. That is where the energy was focused on. And I have no doubt. And again, what happened also during that time is you had individual acts of violence. You had a Jewish extremist go into a mosque and massacre 30 people. You've had Hamas setting off suicide bombings. So you're not going to eliminate that completely, of course. But the bulk of the way these societies are going to function, if there is a genuine prospect for freedom, I think is going to be to normalize life. Because we talked about this a second ago, sort of what's at the core of this. I don't think this is religious. I don't think this is about an abstract idea of justice. I think people want to have a better future for their children. That's what this is about. And what you're describing would open the door to that. And then it would be similar to your story with Cyprus of. Yes, I'm not going to say that people are never going to think and dream of what the past used to be like and when Palestinians could go everywhere they wanted to and so on. But you can get to a point to where the primary focus of these societies is going to be a better future for their children. And when the risk. Right, like if the risk of further military confrontation for Israel with Israel means that your otherwise free and prosperous children are now going to be reduced to rubble again. Nobody wants that. The problem with Gaza right now is that there is such a level of despair over what life has been like for decades that it didn't seem that crazy for Hamas to be able to recruit that many people who are up to just cause trouble and see what happens. So are you ever going to get everybody to go along with an idea of a two state solution? Probably not. You're going to get a lot of upset people. But at the same time, by offering people the chance for a better life, I have no doubt that from there you're on much better ground to start negotiating towards a better future and building slowly towards it and dealing with security problems as security problems, rather than on a fundamental issue of injustice that has to be resolved.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, that's a fun fantasy. Now let me drag us back into the filthy muck of reality. There I saw Rabbi wrote his name down. Rabbi Fleischer on Piers Morgan said something along the lines of. This is a wild paraphrase, but something along the lines of the way that a war ends is one side wins and the other side loses and Israel is going to win. We are going to defeat Hamas and when we do, we are going to take security control over Gaza. We are going to run it with other players in the region. Egypt, I don't remember if he said Jordan, definitely said Saudi Arabia. And we're going to help rebuild Gaza and end up with a Gaza that is terror free and it will end up being wonderful. So in that vision, which I know you find wildly unjust and absolutely horrifying.

[Omar Badar]

Not just that, by the way, just that he's fundamentally dishonest because his track record is extremely lengthy about saying that Israel should take control of all the land and that it should reoccupy Gaza and permanently take it over.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, he sounded like he was saying that.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay. In no uncertain terms.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

The only difference I would say is he was making it sound like in what I saw, that this would be done with other nations in the region and that the goal would be to build it back up and have something. He didn't say two state, but that was what I chose to read into it. Maybe.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah. Certainly not. No. He's. He's fundamentally opposed to the idea of a Palestinian state. And for him, Israel should be control of everything. And it is that formula.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Control of everything forever.

[Omar Badar]

From. From the river to the sea forever. This is Israel's land. He has a very religious take on it. Believe it or not, the first time I debated him was back in 2011 or something like. It's, it's a while back.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I've been at this for a minute.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah. And yeah, he's got very, very deep religious convictions that this can all be done through strength and it. Israeli conquest of the entire land. And frankly, I'm almost convinced that he thinks of October 7th as a great opportunity for Israel to finally do what he's always wanted it to do, which is to reconquer Gaza.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Got it. So that, that is a nightmare scenario for you. Even if Gaza is rebuilt back into something beautiful and many players in the region are overseeing everything.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah. I mean, what is it? To me, it's Palestinian freedom. That's what we want at the end of it. Right. Like you could have that now. You don't need to go through this entire charade. Just Palestinians deserve to have freedom. They should rul themselves. They should have control of their own borders. If Israel is attached to the idea of holding onto the entire territory, fine. But then you have to give Palestinians equal rights. You can't have them held there as subjects who don't get to vote for the government that rules them. Having it both ways is the problem of no state and no freedom.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Let's run then the other thought experiment where they're given rights in that tiered system that you were talking about, it's no longer an open air prison. Israel is putting a ton of money into rebuilding. International aid is flowing in like crazy. But there's no more Hamas because they were soundly defeated. Money's pouring in. It's a coalition government, for lack of a better word. I don't want it in the thought experiment. I don't want it to be just Israel. That feels bad.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So it's a coalition government and we're rebuilding Gaza. They have equal rights in this new. The tiered rights.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Just to make it a little more complicated, a little more realistic, you're describing

[Omar Badar]

basically everybody in the occupied territories as being currently Palestinian citizens of Israel. That tears. That kind of. Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Is that dire, tragic enough? Nothing good or is it still bad? But boy, oh boy, is it better than what we.

[Omar Badar]

Oh would be substantially better. And the biggest obstacle to that would be Israel would never allow it to happen. That's. That's where we are. Because if you can imagine if the majority, if everybody in the occupied territories has full voting rights now the way Palestinian citizens of Israel do, Israel can no longer basically make decisions in advance of one particular group. You know, there's a vote that happens in the Israeli Knesset, the Israeli parliament every once in a while, in which Palestinian members of the Israeli Knesset, Palestinian citizens of Israel, put forth a bill that says let's define Israel as a country of all its citizens. So that's not even the occupied territories. It's just defining it as a country of all its citizens. And the parliament shoots it down every single time. Sometimes they don't even let it come to a vote because they don't think the Palestinian citizens of Israel that this is their country. They're kind of like a tolerated people within who have citizens.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Where does that come from, do you think? A Jewish superiority position?

[Omar Badar]

Oh, explicitly. So there's something called the Jewish the Israel Nation State law in which it says the right to self determination in Israel is unique to the Jewish people. That's explicit. So they don't have a constitution in Israel.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You could read that not as like because we're better, but knowing a bit of the history about why they suddenly felt compelled to have a state. It's like we've had pogroms, pogroms for however long that's gonna set a thing in your psyche. We just had the Holocaust. We're starting a nation. We will do whatever the it takes.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I'm sure not all of it was good, but we end up getting our state. Now I'm like, I am not gonna let anybody mess this up. And if that means that I've got to tear my system, I'm gonna tear my system. But I'm, I'm even going to put into words that like, self determination is only for the Jewish people. That way I just, I don't have to worry, like if we end up getting outnumbered one day. It is what it is. Like the Constitution, I guess. Not that, but whatever their founding document is says that it's just for us to make decisions. Yeah, I get why they would want that. I also get why.

[Omar Badar]

But here's, here's. Yeah, it's two things, right? There is the motivation of why they're doing it, and then there's just the reality that they've created with that Smotrich, who's currently part of Netanyahu's government. His view, by the way. Interestingly enough, he calls himself a homophobic fascist or a fascist homophobe, I don't remember which word. This is his description of himself.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm not sure what we're wearing there, but okay.

[Omar Badar]

His position is we need to separate Palestinian citizens of Israel from Jewish babies in maternity wards.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Wait, say that one more time.

[Omar Badar]

He wants to separate Arab and Jewish babies in maternity wards.

[Tom Bilyeu]

He just doesn't want them in the same room.

[Omar Badar]

Yes. So you can tell it comes from very deep racism and the idea that we're not the same people. So those are people currently in government. The guy in charge of Israeli national security, Ben Gvir, he was convicted and it just tells you also again about the slide of the Israeli mindset over time. He was convicted by an Israeli court of terrorism and anti Arab incitement. And currently he's serving in this government as the head of national security. Things have moved in a very, very dark and ugly direction in terms of anti Palestinian sentiment. So that's the driving force for a lot of that. It's the idea that these people are not equal to us and therefore we should find ways to get rid of them or confine them or if they want to stay here, fine. Just you don't have rights and you have to take it. That is the attitude with which they view Palestinians. So all of it is geared towards reducing their rights. And yeah, at every turn. It's an apartheid regime through and through and public opinion is not shifting in a better direction, but in a worse one.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So I know nothing about the things you're describing right now, but I know humans well enough to know that just like in America, you have.

[Omar Badar]

You can fix it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Psychopaths.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah. They're not usually in charge of government, though. The people who express views. Like, obviously, we have a ton of racist people in this country.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Are you kidding? So fair enough, fair enough. But I mean this in this way. Half of the country thinks that Donald Trump is the next Hitler. So what I'm getting at is you've got. Literally, America is good people on both sides. Okay? So I've got red and blue and boy, oh, boy, do I not agree with a lot of them.

[Omar Badar]

But

[Tom Bilyeu]

it is interesting at the deepest level that half of these incredible people can look at Trump and say, this is the next coming of Hitler. And we're making jokes when he almost got assassinated. And then the other half looks at him as the savior and is the only thing saving our country from certain demise. I get whiplash. As somebody who is constitutionally center, I get whiplash seeing that. But I understand that even from within my own country, people will look left and to the right and see just insanity. Like, they just. They can't believe it. These people have to be stopped at all costs. So I understand how in a democracy, you're going to get this kind of thing. So I don't doubt for one second that inside of Israel are people who are like, you need to separate these babies because they are beneath us. They're horrible. Get them away. But I've gotta believe that there's also a huge swath of people that are. I want beautiful things for everybody that comes in contact with Israel and that this is really a question of assimilation. And I need to look at the. The tiered system because I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. But I get the. The protectionary impulse. In practice, it just may be too gross. But I understand how, again, with all the persecution that they've had for thousands of years, I get how you're like, okay, line in the sand. But my gut instinct is that it. Again, I am. I am not educated in this. This is just me speaking about what I know to be true about humans. Yeah. That I have a feeling that it's not all one side or the other, that there are going to be people that want to see everybody united, but assimilation will be important.

[Omar Badar]

Yeah. There's. There's a line between. Right. It's never. You don't want to view Things in black and white, good people and bad people and all that stuff. Like there is no strict dividing line, but there are injustices of a scale where it does require you to take that kind of position. Like for me, if you were to look back at Jim Crow and think, oh, the black white conflict in America is so awful, but there are good people on both sides and if you can only get together and whatever, yes, maybe there are good individual people on both sides, sure. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about the fact that there is a political injustice. And that's what we're describing here is that of course there are tons of good Israelis who are well intentioned and so on, public opinion shifting in a negative direction. So there's more of the ones who don't view Palestinians as equals, fundamentally. But nonetheless, of course there are good people. But we are looking at a fundamental injustice. We are at a juncture right now in which you have a historic atrocity being committed. We've seen those being committed before. Were there good Germans in Nazi Germany? Of course there were. Were there good Russians in Stalin's Russia, in the Soviet Union? Of course there were. But you're confronting a massive atrocity right now where it's not about finding common ground. It is about putting an end to an absolute horror that is unfolding. And that's the thing that I keep going back to. You know, when we were talking earlier, you mentioned something about, of course, our friend. We were talking about in the context of Iran and Israel. Of course our friend get to have whatever they want and our opponents don't. But we're trying to preach an international order that we want everybody to come together under. That's the idea after World War II that we created the UN and the international institutions and the Nuremberg trials. And the idea is from now on, the same rules apply for everyone. And it's a fundamental principle. I think it's called the principle of moral universality, which is, if something is right for me, it's right for you. If I can say you can't do it, then by definition I also should not be able to do it as an international order and running the world the way the US Currently wants to, which is our friends get to do whatever they want, including carry out genocide. And it's not a big deal. We'll just softly tell them, can you please tone it down? But then our opponents, the second they step out of line in any direction, we're mobilizing our military and getting ready to shut them down. You're running it like a mafia. You're not running a just world. And for me, looking at it from the perspective of we're trying to build a world in which we don't have as much death and suffering and injustice and misery, that has to be a world in which we say the same rules apply across the board for everyone. And in the case of Israel, Palestine, it has to mean in some fashion that Palestinians get what Israelis get. My personal preference is a one state in which everybody lives together. I understand that that might be very difficult politically to get to because of Israeli society feeling insecure about the possibility of being a Jewish minority and so on. There's an alternative to that, which is that you end the occupation. And for me, it is utterly inexcusable that somebody can simultaneously say we're too afraid to give Palestinians equality while insisting on ruling over them and never letting them have their own state and their own freedom. Because of the way you feel, feelings are valid. It's fine that you feel the way you feel. You're not entitled, based on your feelings, to go and violate somebody else's rights and deny them. If I don't like my neighbor, if I'm suspicious of what my neighbor might be doing inside their home, I have the right to feel that I don't have the right to go install cameras in his house and say, I don't know what you're doing. I don't feel safe with you next to me. There's a line that has to be drawn somewhere. And we can't build our international relations based on the feelings of people within a country. We have to say, you don't get to oppress on other people and deny them their rights because of the way you feel. That ought to be a clear line that we draw on this end.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right, Fully acknowledging that you believe that what happened on October 7 was because Israel made it very clear you guys have no other options. You will never taste freedom again. This is forever. How should Israel have responded to that invasion? I don't know what you want to put on it.

[Omar Badar]

I think it's fair. It's a major attack. And again, had it been. I know we've. I've. Niche arguments about the justification for the attack or not. Had it been exclusively on the Israeli military bases, I think there could have been an argument to be made that this is an act of resistance. This is a foreign occupation army, by the way, on a technicality, the siege, the UN and many human rights organizations consider it a continuation of the occupation. Even Though they withdrew settlers from within just because they're effectively in control of all of Gaza. Had this been an attack exclusively on the Israeli military, I think you could have said that this is an act of resistance. But because it included an attack on Israeli civilians as well, it's just transparently not justified and there is no way to justify it. But if our Israel's leader, the day it happened and you said, what would you do now? For me, it's really easy. I would come take on the podium and say, we've realized that we've created a situation that is untenable. It is making everybody insecure and unsafe. And so we are going to end the unlawful blockade and end the illegal occupation. And in exchange, we want justice for what happened. So we want every person who has participated in the October 7 attacks, particularly the ones targeting Israeli civilians, to hand themselves over for war crimes trial. I think that's my closest approximation to justice. Is it anywhere near realistic? Are we anywhere in the vicinity of something like that happening? We are not. And it is only going to come about when Israel feels that it's. That feels that sense that they can't behave and do whatever they want with impunity. And I really going back to where we started, which is that you can do that through American diplomatic and financial pressure, or you can allow untold death and suffering to occur in a major regional war that's going to escalate and take many different shapes before Israel ultimately comes to that conclusion. I think that that is the end result is that because situations of injustice are inherently in a state of disequilibrium because not everybody's satisfied and therefore they're not going to put up with it forever. We are going to end up in a situation in which there is equilibrium. And that could be, I guess, theoretically, if you want to be really morbid, the complete elimination of one side or the other, or achieving a balance in which both sides have paid such a heavy cost that they're both prepared to come to a compromise. And my problem with the current dynamic is that the Palestinians have paid an incredible cost and therefore have demonstrated a willingness to compromise and be flexible, while Israel has seen nothing but impunity for many, many years. And therefore there is that entitlement to just do whatever they want and keep confining Palestinians to smaller and smaller places and thinking that you can pummel Palestinians into submission despite endless history proving that to not be the case.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right, we're coming up on the election. Who do you think is going to be better for resolving this conflict. Kamala Harris or Trump.

[Omar Badar]

So I think they're both awful on this particular issue. So it's funny because I've always been. My personal politics lean more towards Bernie Sanders on domestic issues. On foreign policy, I think the entire political establishment kind of skewed on this. I'm to the left of the Democratic Party, and I've always believed that Election day is about harm reduction, and therefore you vote for the person who's going to reduce harm as much as possible. And for me, that has been, for most of my voting life, feeling like I need to vote Democrats because they're better on, even though their foreign policies are very similar and they're not going to drastically change anything on this question. On issues of labor rights and the environment and so on, the Democrats seem to be a little bit more willing to challenge corporate power. They're both ultimately serving the corporate class. And yet there's some level of reform possible under Democrats in a way that I think with Republicans. From my perspective, it's just been way too accommodating for big business. Denial of climate change, massive tax breaks for the wealthy and so on. And it felt like that's leading us towards a less just society for the first time now. And by the way, when it was time for the last election, I felt very strongly about getting Trump out of office. I thought he had been dangerous for our democracy, proved it. So on January 6th and beyond. And I made a video talking about even though I think Biden is going to be bad on Palestine, when you consider all the other ways that Trump is more harmful, it's important to get Trump out of office and to vote for Biden. That was my position. I'm really having a hard time this time around in that it feels that even though my suspicion is that Kamala Harris would be a little bit better, the scale of the violence, again, genocide, in my view, feels like a line that is harder to cross. To say I'm going to vote for the administration that has enabled genocide for the past 10 months, because on balance, it might be a little bit better than the other one. There is something about me knowing directly people in my life who have lost loved ones in Gaza. A friend of mine who described his mother standing on the rubble of her home trying to shoo away dogs for two days straight to keep them from eating the bodies of her children and grandchildren. To see people currently in power enable that kind of horror and to defend it at every turn and to gaslight Palestinians and to pretend they're looking for A solution, even though they're arming and funding the problem. That to me is so viscerally repulsive that I'm finding it very, very difficult to say, I'm going to go to the voting booth and vote for the Democrats again this time. Nonetheless, I'm also cognizant of the fact that we do have those two options. And Trump for me domestically is a threat to democracy. Obviously what he has, people shooting at him and all that stuff that should have no place in our politics. But I also believe that he's contributed to an environment in which things have moved to a more extreme, in a more extreme direction domestically. And to try to overturn an election that you lost, to try to overturn democracy, to me is a red line and that it's crossed. And I can't imagine a scenario in which I would vote for Donald Trump. But also on this particular question, when you look at what the Trump administration did, whatever little restrictions we had, there was a contrast between American policy in rhetoric and apparent policy in action on Palestine, Israel. For many years, our rhetoric was we support Palestinian statehood, we oppose the Israeli occupation, we oppose Israeli settlements, but the actions were enabling all these things. Trump came along and resolved that contradiction, but in the wrong side. Instead of fixing our actions to match our correct policy positions, he changed our policy positions to match our shitty actions. So he said settlements are not illegal. We recognize the legitimacy of Israeli settlements in the west bank, said the Syrian Golan Heights that Israel took over, that's part of Israel now, moved the US Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital. All these things are in complete and total violation of international law and show complete and total disregard for Palestinian rights. And so he moved policy in a worse direction and he picked a couple of people who were kind of driving policy. One is his son in law, Jared Kushner, who's personal friends with Benjamin Netanyahu. And apparently when he was a child, you know, Benjamin Netanyahu, when he would visit his family, would sleep in his bed and so on. So like very, very close relationship with an extremist right wing government in Israel. And worse, the guy he appointed as his ambassador to Israel, David Friedman, is just an all out religious fanatic by any measure of that word. He accused Obama of being anti Israel because Obama barely tepidly tried to be kind of even handed in some cases, but not really. He accuses American Jewish organizations like J Street, J Street, by the way, is a pro Israel organization. But they also think that Palestinians ought to have a state he accused them of being Kapos. He compared them to Nazi collaborators because they recognize some Palestinian rights. Putting that guy in charge of policy and making him the ambassador to Israel was obviously a signal that things are going to move in a far, far worse direction. And he gets credit for what people describe as the Abraham Accords. They call them peace deals, and they're not peace deals. Those deals were between governments that are already quietly allied with the US And Israel, declaring those alliances publicly in exchange for military and financial incentives. That's what that was. And we made a big thing about it. Trump brought peace to the Middle East. There was never war between these people. Where's the conflict that was resolved? If anything, it isolated the Palestinians even further because prior to that, the entire Arab League took the position that we will only recognize Israel and fully normalize relations with them if Israel fully ends the occupation and allows a Palestinian state to exist. That was their position. Trump peeled individual countries away from that, and so he was further isolating Palestinians. And in my view, that made the events of October 7th all the more likely. That when Palestinians are squeezed that feel like the entire world is abandoning them, including allies of theirs, and that they're going to be stuck living without rights forever, that dramatically increases the possibility of there for a violent reaction. And I don't think that it's a stretch to tie Trump to the fact that this happened. And he likes to brag, as he brags about everything and like, oh, if it were for me, none of this would have happened and this and that. But I think his policy did contribute to the fact that things became more desperate and created more despair among Palestinians, which therefore created a. The laid the groundwork for a much wider explosion that we've actually seen.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Omar, this has been wonderful. Where can people follow along with you

[Omar Badar]

for now, just on social media? I'm on Twitter or Xmarbadar just my name or on Instagram at Obadar. Those are the two primary channels. But people can. People can just Google my name and find me on different social media as well.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I love it. Thank you, man, for taking the time. I appreciate it very much. Speaking of things, I appreciate. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legit. Legendary. Take care.

[Omar Badar]

Peace.