Can the Middle Class Be Saved? Political Division, Economic Doom & The Leadership Problem | Andrew Bustamante Pt. 2

Summary

Impact Theory Podcast Summary

Episode: Can the Middle Class Be Saved? Political Division, Economic Doom & The Leadership Problem | Andrew Bustamante Pt. 2

Release date: June 20, 2026
Host: Tom Bilyeu
Guest: Andrew Bustamante

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Main Theme

This episode dives deep into the state of the American middle class, economic and political instability, and the critical role of leadership. Tom Bilyeu and former CIA officer Andrew Bustamante analyze the mechanisms causing the decline of the middle class, rising populism, the limits of democracy, and what real reform might require in today’s fractious climate. The conversation is candid, philosophical, and sometimes bleak, but always focused on pragmatic solutions and personal responsibility in navigating modern realities.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Need for Visionary Leadership

[01:23–05:52]

• Tom asks Andrew what actions would help rescue the U.S. if the populace was willing to act.
• Andrew stresses the importance of leaders who cast a real vision for the future, not just focus on current dissatisfaction or attack their opponents.
  • "It's very rare that you come across somebody who is vision casting. ... If you find someone who is talking about that, it's almost guaranteed that they're not backed by big money." (Andrew, 02:20)
• Real vision-driven candidates are rare due to political pandering. Voters must research, communicate with, and demand vision from politicians.

2. Economic Drivers of Populism and Political Division

[06:11–10:18]

• Tom provides a historical breakdown of populist surges (1930s Germany, Communist China, USSR) and identifies economic uncertainty as the root cause of political extremism.
  • “Populism is when people begin reasoning via emotion ... The economy breaks. People become fearful ... And that forces them to seek safety, safety in numbers. So they join a team. Then they summon forth the strong man who tells them everything is going to be okay, gives them an enemy to focus on.” (Tom, 06:27)
• Both left and right movements can produce strongmen; both can make things worse if economic fundamentals aren’t fixed.

3. The Limits of Individual Action and the Reality of Deficit Spending

[10:18–13:54]

• Both agree ordinary people can't fix the economy directly; intelligent, economically literate voting is the main lever for change.
  • “We have to get candidates who are economically literate and then elect them.” (Tom, 10:37)
• Tom laments public misunderstanding of deficit spending and inflation:
  • “The very thing that people vote for ... that causes deficit spending, it will be stolen from you in the form of inflation and the fact that people just, it's just a bridge too far.” (Tom, 12:20)

4. The 80/20 Dilemma: Who Should Change Be For?

[16:20–19:42]

• Andrew confesses he’s considered giving up on “the 80%” who aren’t open to change or self-improvement, focusing instead on the motivated “20%”.
  • “If we all did that, though, we'd be taken for a ride, right? ... we'd essentially be reinforcing the system that already exists.” (Andrew, 18:29)
• Tom agrees most people don’t change, but says there’s a moral obligation to build systems that serve everyone, especially the backbone working class.
  • “With my worldview you have a moral obligation ... to put [the masses] in the pole position of like who are we trying to optimize for.” (Tom, 21:58)

5. Reforming the Voting Systems and Welfare

[22:40–24:15]

• They discuss making social support means-tested and aligning voter self-interest with economic good. Tom is critical of both parties' current approaches.
  • “You have to align the voter's selfish interests with what is actually good for the economy. And that is not going to be easy.” (Tom, 24:13)

6. The Race Against Time: Can Collapse Be Averted?

[24:23–27:11]

• Andrew bluntly warns: “So we've got 10 years before we implode.” (Andrew, 24:23)
• Tom replies: “Unfortunately nine at this point I think roughly.” (Tom, 24:27)
• They briefly discuss Rand Paul’s simple 6% budget-cut proposal; both agree only those at the top can enact real change, and time is running short.

7. On Protecting the Middle Class and the Value of Real Work

[27:11–33:54]

• Moving from macroeconomics to personal observation, Andrew shares a story about local construction workers, acknowledging their importance and hardship.
  • “Until you stop to realize how fundamentally important that working person really is ... you need to protect the middle class that makes the future for my children possible.” (Andrew, 30:51)
• Tom links this to his own business perspective, emphasizing why a healthy, mobile middle class is essential for the entire economy.
  • “Things have to. You need real companies selling to real people, innovating for real people. You need the masses to have disposable income. ... you need velocity of money … you need a giant middle class.” (Tom, 32:28)

8. The Leadership Problem and Survival Instincts

[38:23–40:35]

• Andrew frames the entire crisis as a failure of leadership—one that is hard to solve quickly because of complacency and ignorance among voters.
  • “It's a leadership problem ... the vast majority of people are just too ignorant and complacent to change.” (Andrew, 38:23)
• Tom predicts real action will only come after suffering:
  • “History says that we will have to suffer a tremendous amount before we do.” (Tom, 40:35)

9. AI, Innovation, and Long-Term Hope

[40:59–45:23]

• Emerging technology like AI will follow the classic boom-bust-buildout cycle, but long-term should enable economic efficiencies and new jobs.
  • “AI really is poised to ... drive costs down ... while it will disrupt a bunch of jobs, it will create more jobs than it destroys ... it's likely to create more opportunity than it erases.” (Tom, 41:28)
• Innovation is the only escape from the current debt spiral:
  • “You want people to innovate so that you can grow past some of this debt.” (Tom, 44:06)

10. If America Implodes: Plans and Perspective

[45:23–47:58]

• Both Tom and Andrew admit that protecting family comes first, and if the U.S. collapses, they would likely leave the country.
  • “If it really gets dire, I will leave. My number one objective is to protect my wife.” (Tom, 45:30)
  • “The only way to really assure your own future is to become a person who can build wealth. And then the depressing fact is, even when you build the wealth, you just open up a whole new set of problems.” (Andrew, 47:46)

11. Anyone Can Join "The Game of Wealth"

[48:06–50:27]

• Tom and Andrew urge listeners to learn about investing and wealth-building. Even small, long-term moves work.
  • “The thing that I'm really trying to get people to understand is the game of wealth is available to everybody.” (Tom, 48:06)
  • “It is one of the few things that you can literally start doing today.” (Andrew, 50:27)

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Notable Quotes

• “I'm saying vote for the vision of the future that you want to see.” – Andrew (02:11)
• “Populism is when people begin reasoning via emotion ... The economy breaks. People become fearful in the extreme.” – Tom (06:11)
• “We have to get candidates who are economically literate and then elect them.” – Tom (10:37)
• “If we all did that, though, we'd be taken for a ride, right?...we’d essentially be reinforcing the system that already exists.” – Andrew (18:29)
• “With my worldview you have a moral obligation ... to put [the working masses] in the pole position of like who are we trying to optimize for.” – Tom (21:58)
• “I need to protect my children by protecting the middle class that makes the future for my children possible.” – Andrew (30:51)
• “If it really gets dire, I will leave. My number one objective is to protect my wife.” – Tom (45:30)
• “The game of wealth is available to everybody.” – Tom (48:06)

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Segment Timestamps

• Visionary Leadership & Voting – 01:22–05:52
• History of Populism & Economic Fear – 06:05–10:18
• Deficit Spending Reality/What Can Voters Do? – 10:18–13:54
• Optimizing Change: 80/20 Rule & Moral Duty – 16:20–24:23
• The Coming Crisis: Countdown to Economic Implosion – 24:23–27:11
• Valuing the Middle Class – 27:11–33:54
• Leadership & Survival Instincts – 38:23–40:35
• AI & Innovation as a Way Forward – 40:59–45:23
• Personal Exit Plans/Wealth and Responsibility – 45:23–50:27
• Wealth Building for All – 48:06–52:00

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Conclusion

This episode is a candid, sometimes sobering examination of what it would take to rescue the middle class and avoid economic disaster in America. Tom and Andrew dissect the deep structural issues—economic, political, and societal—while emphasizing that the most enduring solutions demand a combination of courageous leadership, economic literacy, innovation, and personal responsibility.

For those feeling overwhelmed or powerless, the hosts urge: Start where you are, learn, build wealth, and vote for visionary, economically literate leaders. The middle class—and the future—depend on it.

Transcript

[Tom Bilyeu]

I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool.

[Andrew Bustamante]

No, you don't understand.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It went perfectly.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Real offer down to the penny.

[Tom Bilyeu]

They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So what's the problem?

[Tom Bilyeu]

That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes as smoothly. I'm waiting for the catch.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Maybe there's no catch.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's exactly what a catch would want me to think.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Wow. You need to relax.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this table wood?

[Andrew Bustamante]

I think it's laminate. Okay. Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's good. That's close enough. Car selling without a catch. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Support comes from wise. The smart way to manage the currencies you need around the globe. Fed up with losing out to hidden fees? When you send money abroad with your everyday bank, choose the smart way Wise. You can count on the exchange rate you'd usually find on Google. No unwelcome surprises. Plus, ditch that where's my money feeling. Most transfers arrive in under 20 seconds. Join millions saving billions on hidden fees. Be smart, get wise. Download the wise app today. Ts and Cs apply. Welcome back to part two of this incredible conversation. Without further ado, here we go. It's very clear now. Step into the theoretical for me for a second and assume that people will do the things, but they just need you to tell them what things to do.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Okay?

[Tom Bilyeu]

How would we. With a willing populace, how would we get ourselves out of this mess?

[Andrew Bustamante]

So there's a midterm election coming up that we would need to see record level voting on. Especially because there's been so much political gerrymandering.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But what would you point them out? What should they vote for?

[Andrew Bustamante]

They should vote for the candidate that represents what they want for the future of the United States.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But you already laid out the world's most compelling argument for what I'll say is populism. People are thinking, emotionally, they're on a team. So if we send them in to vote and just say vote your conscience as of right now, today, even if they're willing, if they're pointed at, just vote for what you think is right, they'll just be split right?

[Andrew Bustamante]

Like so that's. And that's why I'm not saying vote your conscience, okay? I'm saying vote for the vision of the future that you want to see. And I say that because.

[Tom Bilyeu]

When is that different?

[Andrew Bustamante]

Because the only certain politicians talk about a vision for the future. Most of them talk about what they're dissatisfied with right now. Even if you look at hate ads or, or attack ads. Right. Attack ads are very focused on right now. Look what's happened. This person isn't doing what you promise, isn't doing what they promised and, and doesn't believe in, you know, freedom or democracy or whatever else. They're anti immigration, they're pro whatever else. Like the, the list goes on and on about the, the here and the now. It's very rare that you come across somebody who is vision casting. Here's where I want us to go. I want us to find a way to work across the aisle. I want us to find a way to reinstate checks and balances. I want to find a way to make the Fed independent again. You don't hear people talk about that. If you find someone who is talking about that, it's almost guaranteed that they're not backed by big money, because the big money essentially forces them to back a certain horse or tow a certain party line. They're trying to pander to the, the religious voter, they're trying to pander to the Social Security voter, they're trying to pander to the healthcare voter, they're trying to pander to the LGBTQ voter. And it's, it's very focused on emotion, not focused on issue and vision. So if you just focus on vision casting, 80% of the politicians that are out there are not going to be viable because they're not casting a vision. They're just backing a horse. But you have to actually research before you do that. You have to.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I name a candidate that I think I hear you describing? You tell me if I'm on, if

[Andrew Bustamante]

I know them, please.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Are we talking about jfk, Somebody who's like, we're gonna go to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard. And that's not what your country can do for you, but what you can do. Are you talking about that kind of thing?

[Andrew Bustamante]

So I don't disagree with that. I think what we're seeing with those kinds of vision casting are he was already the president and he was getting public support for where he wanted us to go in terms of our public spending. I don't, I, I don't have a good politician that comes to mind that casts a vision right now. And I haven't seen one for a very long time at any level of government. But since we're going into a theoretical conversation, that's where I would say we would have to start. And if we're going, if you're talking about people truly doing their civic duty. Then when they don't find a candidate that speaks to the vision that needs to be cast, then they write to the candidate and they ask the candidate what their vision is. It used to be a very common thing for people to write their congressmen, write their senators, write their. Their people who were running. They would go to town halls, they would ask questions of the incumbent that were meaningful and important to them. That time has changed. Now town halls are more of a political rally than anything else. But we have a chance to go back to that if we're willing to. Democracy was always meant to happen slowly. The fact that we've been able to take such rapid action, like capturing Maduro in January and then killing narco terrorists in Mexico in February and then attacking Iran in March, the reason we can move so fast is because we've shortcuts a lot of those democratic processes and we have to find our way back to moving slow if we're going to trust democracy. If you don't want to trust democracy, that's fine, don't trust it. But don't try to say that you trust it or that you believe in it if you're willing to let it be bypassed.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so we've got vision casting, so somebody that has a clear vision for the future and can tell us how that we're going to get there. Is there any other sort of major tent pole of how we get out of this?

[Andrew Bustamante]

What a good question. I'm sure that there have got to be. There is a small handful. I just don't know what they are.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Weep. I don't know that many people will say. The only answer that I think is actually true, and that's you have to fix the economy. And so I just wrote a deep dive on this. Populism is by my definition. And I. I don't think anybody will give me a better one. But populism is when people begin reasoning via emotion, which is what humans do anyway, but it ratchets up. So the economy breaks. People become fearful in the extreme. They're worried about where their next meal comes from. And that forces them to seek safety. Safety in numbers. So they join a team. Then they summon forth the strong man who tells them everything is going to be okay, gives them an enemy to focus on. And that sense of safety makes people do murderous things. And the utterly fascinating thing about the most famous rise of that kind is of course, Hitler. And Hitler, when he came to power, he, ironically, I used to think that he came to power because of the Treaty of Versailles and the loss of World War I, but he actually didn't. So he started gaining in popularity during the, whatever, 1923 hyperinflation. And so he got up to like 6% or 6 and a half percent of the vote, but he was still like a super fringe character. It wasn't until the Great Depression, so. So he actually goes up to like 6%, 6 and a half percent popularity, then falls back down in 1928 to 2 and a half percent. So it's like, oh, he's kind of this washed up guy, right? And then the Great Depression hits, and he goes from two and a half percent popularity to like, 37% in five years because, like, what, 50% of youth was unemployed. One in three Germans were unemployed, full stop. I mean, it was just like complete pandemonium. And so then when you've got a guy who's like, not only do I know how to fix this, I know who the problem is. And so that's populism. So we're in a populist moment, and everybody's being very clear. If you're on the left, the right is the problem. If you're on the right, the left is the problem. Right now, 40% of Americans believe that the other side is morally bad. More than 50% of Americans think that their other fellow Americans are a threat to democracy or to the nation itself. I mean, it's like the stats are insane. And so we're in this populist moment, but everybody wants to treat the symptoms and not the cause. And the cause is the economic uncertainty. And even if you go back and look at Mao, same thing, Mao, economic uncertainty. Japan goes in and just completely up China. Mao rises to power by winning the civil war. Everybody's economically uncertain. He's like, don't worry, I got you. Proceeds to kill 45 million of them. But they keep following him, partly just because of the sheer tyranny, but he comes to power as a strongman. Same thing with Lenin. Same thing with what's his face that followed Lenin, who I cannot believe I'm blanking on his name. One of the most evil people to ever walk the earth. Stolen Stalin. Thank you. So it's the first of all. They come in left and right flavors. And so everybody is going to bang the drum about Trump. And that's understandable because he's in power now. But if what we do is reject Trump and go to a Bernie figure, Mom, Donnie, aoc It's one. My particular bent is that that is economically even worse. You've got sort of kleptocrats over here, but at least they create an opportunity for you to get rich while they steal from you. You won't take advantage of the opportunity, but it's there. They, the other side just steals from you. You don't have an opportunity to get ahead. You get bread lines. So look, they're both bad. I just think one is slightly worse than the other. But you definitely, if you cannot solve the economic problem, you will simply, in a ever escalating drama, swing from left to right and back again.

[Andrew Bustamante]

But I would argue that the average person can't fix the economic issues.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, the average person can't fix the economic issues at all.

[Andrew Bustamante]

How so then, yeah, how do the, how does that, how does the average person then participate in.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You elect Margaret Thatcher? So the.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So we're both going back to the root of, of participating intelligently in the electoral process.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Correct. The. The only thing you can do is get. The obvious thing that people should be banging pots and pans about is Thomas Massey. The only guy wearing a debt clock pin just got outed by apac, which kids, your reputation is so bad, you are getting savage. Yeah, uh, it's not like a small handful of people have turned against you. An entire generation or more has turned against you and you go and do that fucking insanity. But anyway, they did it. And so we have to get candidates who are economically literate and then elect them. And then we have to deal with the fact that we're going to go through what Britain went through when Margaret Thatcher came into office, but she ended up pulling them through, getting to the other side and getting things back on track. Going from we're the wealthiest nation in the world to begging the IMF for a bailout, only to actually rebuild and reestablish their wealth is. I mean, it's an incredible journey. Now, they're not obviously what they used to be, but they got on the other side, at least briefly with Margaret Thatcher. So we would have to go through something like that so that we can start making the economy work for the average person again. But the thing that drives me mad, mad is that the very thing that people vote for, which is more free stuff or bigger military or whatever it is that they're voting for that causes deficit spending, it will be stolen from you in the form of inflation and the fact that people just, it's just a bridge too far. You're never going to get people to understand that. I worry, I really hope I can. But I certainly worry that that's just people are too busy trying to stay afloat. We're hitting pause for a moment, but there's plenty more ahead so don't go anywhere. I want to talk about Summer heat is unforgiving and it exposes exactly how bad most clothing actually is. Cheap synthetic fiber does not breathe. It traps that heat against your skin, makes you sweat more, and then you spend the whole day uncomfortable. Meanwhile, quality natural fabrics, real linen, real cotton actually help regulate your body temperature. You stay cooler because the material is helping do the job. That's the difference Quince makes. I've got one of their 100% Pima cotton tees and the quality is immediately obvious. You can feel it soft, well constructed, the kind of thing that's built to hold up. That's what premium materials actually feel like. Quince makes high quality summer essentials European linen pants and shirts Starting at just $34, soft cotton tees, lightweight cotton sweaters for cooler nights and prices everything 50 to 80% less than comparable brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for the product, not the markup. Do not suffer through this summer in cheap fabric. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com impact pod for free shipping on your order and a 365 day return policy. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com impact pod for free shipping and a 365 day return policy. Quints.com impact pod now let's talk about what happens when nobody picks up the phone. Every dollar you spend on ads, referrals and word of mouth has one purpose to get the customer to reach out. The moment a call rings and goes unanswered, the that money's gone. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, which is spelled Q U O. They are the business communication system that was built so you never miss a call. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2. It's trusted by over 90,000 businesses who rely on it to stay reachable and look professional. Every day all your calls, texts and voicemails live in one place so anyone on your team can pick up a conversation, see the full history and respond fast. When money is on the line, always say hello with Quo. Try Quo for free plus get 20% off your first six [e-mail] impact Again, that's Q U O.com impact let's talk about a line in the IRS tax code most people do not fully use over 40 million Americans have HSA accounts holding $159 billion in pre tax money. The average account holds around $4,000. And most of those dollars go towards routine costs like doctor's visits and prescriptions. But that's only a fraction of what's actually eligible. That's where Trumed comes in. True Med helps qualified customers use pre tax HSA or FSA dollars on products that qualify as medical expenses under the IRS guidelines. Think strength training equipment, health trackers, daily supplements. The categories most people assume are out of their own pocket. Qualified customers save about 30% on average. The tax code already gives you the advantage. Trumed shows you how to use it. Go to trumed.com impact and check what qualifies. It takes just a couple of minutes. That's T R u e m e d.com impact. Trumed is for qualified customers. HSAFSA tax savings are going to vary. Thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action.

[Andrew Bustamante]

I hesitate to bring this up, please, in large part because there's cameras on us, right? But also because it's just fraught with people misinterpreting it. Right? But I have very seriously considered whether or not it's better to just give up on all the people who have already kind of given up on self improvement, give up on people who've given up on learning, give up on people who it's a bridge too far to understand the impact of inflation.

[Tom Bilyeu]

How do you give up? What does it look like?

[Andrew Bustamante]

You just stop trying to educate them and instead you focus on the much smaller population, which According to the 80:20 rule is 20% of the population that actually has the capacity, the interest, the ability to change their ways. Because if you give up on the 80% and you focus on the 20%, you're essentially accepting that the process of democracy, the majority rules idea is no longer relevant. And instead you kind of lean into the reality of the fact that a small group of people carry an outsized impact to the economy and to the world. And I say that because like, even if you just look at one of the this is a me problem, not a not a you problem. Maybe it is you problem that we've never talked about before. But I would love to educate spy skills that break barriers. The 22 year old who didn't go to college, who's, you know, trying to figure out how to make life work in the same hometown where he went to high school. Just as much as I would like to educate the 35 year old who has already moved twice and who has an advanced degree and who's rising in his company. I would love to help them both, but the problem is they have very different lifestyles, they have very different challenges, they have very different priorities. Right. The 22 year old probably doesn't have kids, isn't married, you know, still living in his hometown, doesn't have a perspective even outside of his state, where the 35 year old has moved multiple times, might be married, might have their first child already, and certainly knows what it's like to kind of suck eggs a little bit to succeed in a career. This person I can exponentially help in just a short period of time where this person takes convincing before I can ever actually help them. So when I choose how to spend my three hours of recording content today, isn't it more efficient for me to focus on this person who I can change more in a shorter period of time rather than spend part of my, my education and training time on this other person? And I say that in a true place of difficulty because I've always been a public servant. When I was in the military, when I was at CIA, our job is to protect even the least of us. But now that I've learned a little bit about how the economy actually works and I've been able to break through a financial barrier of my own that nobody in my family could ever break through, I have certainly seen the financial benefit of not focusing on a losing horse, but betting on a winning horse. And if we all did that, though, we'd be taken for a ride, right? Like we would essentially be reinforcing the system that already exists.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It may just be as simple as the civil servant thing, but I thought there was going to be something lurking in there that was bad. So anything that all the things that you just said do not seem strange to me at all now, it may be because people think my lens on the world is so bizarre that I can't see anything. But yeah, that just makes sense now. Like you, I went on a journey. I used to get made fun of for trying to help everybody. And people were like, you do realize that some people are never going to change. There's nothing you could do. And I really thought I could get good enough that I could string together a magic sequence of, of words that would somehow reach inside people's soul and get them to change course. And part of the reason I stopped doing mindset content was because I realized 2% of people do something with it. 98% don't. And the 2% will self select. And so I guess in that sense I think I'm only ever speaking to the people that are going to make change. However, and maybe this helps you in some way. I think that ultimately all of us have an obligation to build a world that's awesome for the people that are either too busy, they are the backbone of our current society, just fucking hands dirty, putting things together, making it work. I think people at least trying to capture some of the, even if it's the mythological energy and it wasn't real, but the story we were told about the founding fathers trying to build something that would last well beyond them, that would be good for the masses that had this foundation that over time, I mean for a long time this really just curing the ills of society, finally end slavery and all that. I mean just like a really incredible foundation that we built on for the last 250 years. And so there is a sense of like no, I have an obligation to do something that might not be optimized for me but is going to be good for the masses. And this is why I say my North Star is a thriving middle class as an orienting mechanism to just be like it's the bulk of the bell curve. And so I think you don't get there by spending all of your time on the person that is just not going to change. But I think that with my worldview you have a moral obligation to think of them not exclusively, but to put them in, in the pole position of like who are we trying to optimize for now having said all of that, as I really think through the problem of what we have done, this is a uniquely sort of American thing because of the debt. But we have to get to the point where the people that vote are voting for something that is in the middle class's best interest. And right now, at least on the left, the trend is towards voting for more free shit, which just means stealing from you in another way. And obviously the right is doing kleptocratic shit right now. So that isn't helping for sure. So if we're going to put something in place that will actually get people to vote for their best interests, you somehow have to align their interests either by reducing make everything means tested so nothing is handed out to people unless it's like for real, for real. Like this person cannot work, they are not able bodied up the age of retirement. I know people are going to hate that. But it's like, well, if we have an aging population, we don't have enough people to take care of them. You can't just deficit spend because you're stealing from everybody, especially the young. And so when you start looking at those solutions, that's where it gets hard. That's where it's like, I'm aware that there are cameras on me and what solutions am I really prepared to put forward? But we have to find a way to get people to vote in a way that is mechanistically not intentional. Like I don't care about your intentions. I'm sure a lot of people that vote for communism have good intentions. Mechanistically it's evil. And so it's one of those. It's documentably evil. Like you need to show people this is how it works out every time and you can show them the mechanism as to why it's going to work out like that every time you try it. No matter what, it's a mechanism. So how we get there, the only thing I can think is you have to align the voter's selfish interests with what is actually good for the economy. And that is not going to be easy.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So we've got 10 years before we implode.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Unfortunately nine at this point I think roughly.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Is there a way to avoid it?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes, dude, you could avoid it. What is it? Rand Paul has the dumbest, easiest, most straightforward. He calls it like the 6 cent rule or something. It's like you reduce the budget by 6% every year for five years and that's literally all it takes. And you do it across everything. So, so that nobody can say anybody's playing political favorites. You literally just. The entire budget equally is reduced by 6%.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So it sounds like there's a mechanism

[Tom Bilyeu]

that could work don't deficit spend.

[Andrew Bustamante]

But the, the only group of people that can execute that are not everyday people. They're the top of the food chain.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes.

[Andrew Bustamante]

And then there's a, there's a time constraints because to get the person that's going to make that decision into office is going to take time. Is.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I can taste the black on the capsule of this pill that you're going to ask me to imbibe. Thank you.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Do we have the time to find our Margaret Thatcher? Do we have the time to get that person in there so that they can implement the mechanism we, so that we can turn it around.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's just will we? Is the exact question. Now the great news is when I say that we have nine years, that assumes nothing changes. The good or bad news is Scott Bessen understands this so well, he is going to weaken the dollar. I have to imagine they got Kevin Warsh in there because behind the scenes, and I don't know, so I'm not trying to defame him, but I imagine behind the scenes there's no universe in which they put him in because Bessant is so sharp. There's no way they put him in position if he wasn't like, yeah, I get it. I know what the deal is and I'm going to try to reduce the Fed's balance sheet. But boy, oh boy, do I understand that if we have to inflate so that the debt is easier to pay back, then that's what we're going to do. So they will they actually let us implode? Probably not. But if they don't let us implode, it will hasten the K shape, it will make violent revolution that much more likely. And so they'll have to walk a really fine line. Do I think they can pull it off? Maybe. We'll see. There are other options, I guess is the punchline there. They're not good, and I wish we wouldn't do them. But it isn't a binary choice between elect Thomas Massie as president or we end up in revolution or defaulting on our debt. We're not going to default on our debt. Certainly right now the people in power are so savvy financially, it's just a really shitty solution.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Your shitty solution is still somehow comforting to what I generally think about because I really, very much, I have become hyper focused on just kind of creating the best future for my own kids. And when you talk about, man, it was inspiring. Have anybody, anybody who heard what you had to say and wasn't inspired is coming from a different planet than I come from. Right. But when you talk about protecting the, that working class that makes it all happen, the person with the, with the dirt on their arms. There's construction going on in the road in front of my house when, when my wife and I moved. We moved last February or this February. And the only complaint that she had about the neighborhood that we were moving into was the road, the road to the neighborhood and then the road through our neighborhood, right by our house was horrible. Like, not like abandoned third world kind of roads, right? But like modern day American roads. This was horrible by all definitions. It had the big, like waves in it where you could very clearly see, like, here's a sewage drain because the road goes up and then you pass the sewage drain and the road dips again and there's huge potholes and cracks and Overgrowing on the sides and just a Colorado road in disarray. So maybe four weeks ago, three weeks ago, Colorado Springs comes in and starts tearing up the road. And they're relaying the entire road. They're trying to hit 200ft a day, but the road itself is probably three quarters of a mile long. Right? So every day from 7 o' clock in the morning till 7 o' clock at night, I see the same 12ish construction workers out there driving heavy machinery, breaking through asphalt, laying and pushing dirt every day. And I never thought about the life of a construction worker until the were in front of my house every single day sweating their tails off, filthy like that's back breaking work. They might be driving a giant bulldozer, but that's a giant multi ton vehicle. And they're one small turn away from tearing up a sidewalk or, you know, destroying a car or hurting a person. Right. Meanwhile, the whole neighborhood still lives in the neighborhood. So there's people walking dogs, kids playing with each other, bicycles going on. People are trying to be respectful of the workers. But I have never put myself in their shoes like I did until I started seeing them every day. And about five or seven days into it I was like, I feel compelled to bring them pizza for dinner. Like just go buy seven large pizzas and bring. Because I know they're going to wrap up at 7:00pm yeah, yeah, right. But until you stop to realize how fundamentally important that working person really is and the fact that they're like not a single one of them is over the age of 50 because that's back breaking work. Right, but my point with all of that is just when you talked about how there's a moral obligation that we all have to support that fundamental workforce and you aren't talking about construction workers only. There's, there's accountants and there's teachers and there's a whole slew of trades that are required to build the country. I mean, that was a damned good point. That makes me feel like I need to rethink the idea of. I just, I need to protect my children by protecting my children to. I need to protect my children by protecting the middle class that makes the future for my children possible.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, that's a dope way to say it. And I mean, you can also just step into being a selfish capitalist and saying I need a thriving country that has disposable income, that's optimistic and hopeful about their future, that has kids. I need people to have kids because I'm trying to make children's entertainment. So it's like, I. I need healthy, happy kids with loving families to, you know, to create things for that gives me meaning and purpose. And then also, just once you understand the raw mechanisms of the economy, you're like, oh, wow. It's interesting that the economic forces have this constant impulse to create these financialized games so that they can win at the extreme. And at some point they start losing touch with the Warren Buffett of it all, where it's like value investing. What are the good companies? What are the people that are really making core products that make this country what it is, or whatever, fill in the country, Peru, China, Japan, whatever. But the people in this country that are trying to build something, that are trying to innovate, that are trying to make their lives better and their kids lives better, that impulse is awesome. And we want to fuel that with investing. I've said many, many, many times the stock market is a modern miracle. But you also get into this version where you have these people that are so good at the gambling portion of it. People hate it when I call it that, but I'll stand 10 toes down on that. And so you get that at the extremes, it makes it complicated enough that people get fearful to get in. We don't teach people about how to invest for the long term. And so once you understand the mechanisms of that whole machinery, you're like, oh, got it. Like, things have to. You need real companies selling to real people, innovating for real people. You need the masses to have disposable income. You need velocity of money. Like, there are all these things that are mechanistic and they require a giant middle class. And when you have that giant middle class and they're healthy and they're optimistic and they're growing and they've got the ability to go up or down, that's important because right now you can go up, you can go down, and then you're stuck. And so it's like, you don't want people to be able to be rich forever unless they're just that good. Hey, if they're that good and they're winning all the time, fantastic. But you want mobility, and mobility means that you can't do the socialism for the wealthy. So if a bank goes under, a bank goes under. It is what it is. If a company goes under, it goes under. It is what it is, man. Like, you've got to let those companies die. So if you like, it's almost no matter what angle you come at it, I have a moral responsibility to do it, it's a beautiful thing to protect the people who are going to build the world for my kids. As a capitalist, just filthy capitalist, I need people that are happy and optimistic to sell to.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So

[Tom Bilyeu]

almost no matter what angle you come at it from, unless you are in a purely extractive short term mindset, you realize, all right, yeah, we can't eat the seeds that we're going to plant next year. We got to fucking wait. We got to plant the crops, we've got to let them grow. And somewhere we lost that on the right and the left. And so that's why when I say I'm enraged when I see Mamdani and AOC and Bernie just doing their best to break the economy. Yeah, don't love it. And then when I see the wealthy, like when I hear Donald Trump banging on about, bro, but the stock market's great. What are you guys complaining about? Bitch, 10% of Americans own 93% of the assets. That's what the fuck I'm complaining about. So it's wild. It's wild. Taking a short break, but there's more impact theory after. Stay tuned. Let's talk about longevity. I'm not talking about living longer in theory. I'm talking about actually building the cellular foundation that makes performance sustainable for decades. If you know me, you know I am obsessed with longevity and with performance. I think about what I eat, what I drink, what I do every day that compounds positively over time. That's why I'm a fan of Nandica from Peak. It's like the Rolls Royce of coffee alternatives for longevity. It's got full spectrum Reishi, one of the most studied longevity mushrooms on the planet, combined with fermented pu erh tea from 250 year old trees and ceremonial grade cacao. So if you're serious about upgrading your energy and thinking in decades instead of days, check out Nandica. Get 20% [e-mail] impact that's P I Q U E life.com impact we'll return to the show in a second, but right now I want to talk about the slowest part of running a business. It's not the work itself. It's getting the answers you need to do the work. You message three people wait on two reports. Check four dashboards, and by the time you actually have the clarity you need, you're already behind. Netsuite changes that entirely. You probably already know NetSuite. They're the AI powered business management suite that's trusted by over 43,000 customers. It connects your financials inventory, commerce, HR and CRM all into one single source of truth. NetSuite Next is the next massive leap for them. AI is now built into everything that you do. Whether your company earns millions or hundreds of millions, this is where Your business meets AI for the first time ever. You can now try NetSuite next for free. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to NetSuite AI theory. It's built for every industry, ready for every boardroom. Netsuite AI Theory. And now let's get back to the show. Let's talk about why selling online marketplaces feels so broken today. 20 years ago, you were selling to a person. You knew them, you knew what they liked, you could set things aside for them. But the algorithm has flattened all of that out. Now you're just a listing in a sea of listings, competing on price, hoping someone scrolls past at the right second. The person to person model might be dead, but Whatnot is making shopping great again. Whatnot is the largest live shopping marketplace in the country. Sellers go live, show their products in real time, take questions, and build real relationships with buyers. Sellers on whatnot move 10 times more product than on other major marketplaces. And the number of people making over a million dollars a year on this platform has doubled. Buyers spend more than an hour a day in the app. That's not just random browsing. That is people developing a real relationship with with the app. Beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury, fashion, even cookies, every category. Real businesses are being built in real time on Whatnot. Download the Whatnot app today and get free shipping on your first order. Just search wh a t n o t whatnot in the app Store and start scoring amazing deals right now. Thanks for staying tuned. Now let's get back to it.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It's a leadership problem, which is both a good and bad discovery because that's a slow problem. That's a slow boat to shift. And we live in a country where the populace, the popular, the populace, not the populist, but the populace, determines the leadership. And now it goes back to what my concern was is that the vast majority of people are just too ignorant and complacent to change. And now you're combining a time constraint, right? Nine years before implosion, a time constraint with a baseline starting place. And let's just say that my baseline starting place of the majority of Americans are too ignorant and complacent. Let's just say that that's an overstretch. Let's just say I'm only 50% correct. The baseline is still only 50% better. Oh, like to hear us kind of both agree that there's so little that the average person can do that triggers survival instinct in people. And they have to, they have to decide if I'm going to put my resources into something, am I going to put my resources into the public good or the individual good? Am I going to help the country survive? I'm going to help the family survive, Am I going to take care of my neighbor? Am I going to take care of myself? And once you put people into that position, the paleo, the paleo mammalian brain of all of us is like, maybe I'll do both, but I'm more invested in the self than the group. In American culture, it's the opposite. In Japanese culture, like you were talking about, that collective culture believes that you sacrifice always. But that's not how Americans think. That's not how we think anymore for sure. So I love hearing what you have to say. It makes me feel like there is a path forward, but there's these if then statements before the actual path forward is achievable. And I really hope that we can figure out those if then statements.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, history says that we will have to suffer a tremendous amount before we do. I take some solace in the fact that Margaret Thatcher comes rapidly to power as they really hit a financial snag. And I think something similar will happen in the US I just really hope it does not follow the following trend.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Didn't you also say Hitler had a rapid rise to power because of a financial issue too?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Populist leaders, that's exactly how they are born is you have some sort of tremendous economic disruption that causes people to essentially panic. And then they just like a dazed fighter in the middle of the ring, they grab at the legs of the strong man and just say, keep me safe. So it, yeah, it gets wild really fast. The weird position that we're in is half the country hates the other half of the country and so we have to find some way back to the middle. AI could be that if you want another white pill, AI really is poised to. It will disrupt a lot of jobs, there's no doubt. But the more time I spend with it, the more what it looks like is it's going to follow the trend of every technological revolution that came before it, which follows a pretty fascinating path. So anybody investing, pay attention. So what ends up happening is you bring on this new technology. It has an insane amount of hype around it. It requires a massive economic build out for the infrastructure you get a wave of investors that go in on the first bit of infrastructure and then they basically all go broke because the delay between when you have to spend the money, usually on debt to build out the infrastructure and when the revenue actually starts coming in, the gap is just too long. And so that first group gets wiped out. And so we're seeing now businesses pull away from AI. Anybody who reads that as AI was just all hype and it's nothing, just follow the trend. This is what happens every time. And then over time, people get better at using the technology and all that, and then it ends up paying off. But it can take, you know, say five, 10 years longer than the debt was going to last before that blew up in people's faces. So that first wave is likely to get in trouble. Now we're doing the SpaceX IPO. I worry that the normal market is just exit liquidity for that first wave of investors. So we're going to have like a slightly different thing where the, the like 1.5 wave of investors gets mowed over. There's a lot of stuff there that I don't like about how that's playing out, but it is what it is. It's people's own money. If they choose to invest without paying attention, that's on them. But so that's gonna happen most likely. But the technology will become what people expect it to become. I mean, I'm seeing it already in my own business. It's extraordinary. It's completely transformational. It's amazing. And so that is going to drive costs down. And while it will disrupt a bunch of jobs, it will create more jobs than it destroys. They're just jobs we can't predict right now. The fact that you've become a millionaire off of a job description that didn't exist 20 years ago is already wild. And so that kind of thing is really fascinating. So AI is going to do similar things like that. It'll be things that we can't anticipate, but it's likely to create more opportunity than it erases, until at which point you get artificial superintelligence. It's better than us at everything, but at that point you're probably looking at an age of abundance. And so now it's what Elon calls universal high income. Now, I don't think that will change life very much in terms of the things that stress humans out. We will still play status games. We will still want more than the next person. We will want to be the ones that live on the hill overlooking the Ocean. It's like, it's just, that's what humans want. And there's always going to be a limited amount of that. And so people will come up with some new currency like thing that it's like I have more Pokemon cards, whatever. And so I get to buy the house in the hill overlooking the ocean, whatever. But it will, it has a shot of getting you there. And once you going back to the mechanisms of the economy, the way the economy works is that you can truly grow your way out of the debt problem. But to do that you need more efficiencies. And this is why innovation is so important and why anybody that shits on innovation is just going to be number one on my hit list. You want people to innovate so that you can grow past some of this debts. But right now, for every dollar, new dollar that we raise in taxes, we spend an additional $50, 58. So as long as that ratio stays true, you'll never be able to grow out of the problem. And so we have a weird mental setup that people now expect to be taken care of by the state. And that's suicide.

[Andrew Bustamante]

If we implode in nine years, what are you going to do?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Sips tea if it really gets dire, I will leave. My number one objective is to protect my wife. So while I really hope it doesn't come to that, and I really hope that I can be some small voice among a hopefully growing cadre of voices that are trying to make the machinery of economics something people can make contact with and do something about. But if I can't pull that off or be useful in that way, then yeah, I'm thankfully wealthy. And so I will pack up and catch that private flight out of Hanoi and be off somewhere nice where no mosquitoes at.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It makes me feel better. Wow. That's the second thing that makes me feel better about. I have a very similar plan like bail and bail to a place with no mosquitoes. That's awesome. It's just, it's encouraging to hear you say that because it's, it's where I spend probably 30 of my thoughts right now.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Is in this whole do I stay? Do I. Well, not do I stay? Do I go? How and when? Yeah, do I go? That's where my brain lives. And in a, in a like shocking twist, the capture of Maduro changed the Venezuelan national relationship with the United States, which creates multiple opportunities in my universe that I never thought would have existed. Right. So it, it almost accelerates the whole plan about how to leave. But then As I look at leaving the United States, especially leaving the United States, now that I have more wealth than my family had before me, it becomes a very difficult proposition because there are very real financial implications, whether you find efficient ways to protect your wealth or not. So it's just. It sounds ludicrous to have wealthy people problems, and so few people understand wealthy people problems. And to even talk about wealthy people problems becomes like a. You sound like an doing it right. But the reality is, the only way to really assure your own future is to become a person who can build wealth. And then the depressing fact is, even when you build the wealth, you just open up a whole new set of problems.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Andrew Bustamante]

And it's something I remember reading about when I was trying to build a business. And now I'm there, and it's still just as real as when I read about it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. Yeah. The thing that I'm really trying to get people to understand is the game of wealth is available to everybody.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Everybody.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I get that it's a scary game. There's a way to play it that's sort of the basic way. And if you just get in the market for 20, 30, 40 years, you're going to do very well. Caleb Hammer, who's a fascinating voice, if you don't know him yet, definitely look him up. He was on Rogan and he was talking about how if you had invested in like, 1990, so the average salary was like 20 grand, if you had invested, I forget what percentage, like 10% or something of your salary every time, you would now have, like two and a half million dollars or something. And so it's like, I get it, that's slow. You know, that's whatever, 35, 36 years. But it's like you'd be a multimillionaire.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And you're only shaving off 10% of your income. So people just have this, like, mental block. I did for years. My only retirement strategy was to get rich.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Yeah, that was my retirement strategy, too.

[Tom Bilyeu]

People used to make fun of me all the time, and I was like, bro, I do not understand the investing stuff. I don't want to think about the stock market.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It's too slow. I may not live that long.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Too slow.

[Andrew Bustamante]

I had all those.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So it was just like, well, I'm just going to get rich and that'll be that. And now that I see again, just going back to the mechanisms of how this stuff works, it's like, I didn't realize that I was being inflated away. I thought inflation was a Law of nature. I didn't realize that it was a thing that doesn't have to happen, that it's completely man made. So getting people to understand that join the game of wealth now. Like if you hear us talking and we sound just like absolute douchebags, come join the douchery.

[Andrew Bustamante]

It's true.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Much nicer on this side of the fence.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You have more options, you have problems, but they're different problems. They're somehow more expensive problems, but they're fewer in number.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. Also once money isn't the driving, like paranoia in your life, it, it just, there's a level of anxiety that falls away. And for. If anybody is listening to this and you're meeting me for the first time, I have spent much more of my life not wealthy than I've spent wealthy. So I know what it's like intimately on the other side of the fence having to juggle different bills, pay some some month, some another month. I know that all too well.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So it is fascinating because that is 100% a mantra that I am trying to communicate with everyone is, is you can become wealthy. It doesn't, it's not rocket science. It is one of the few things that you can literally start doing today. You don't have to wait until the gym opens tomorrow, you don't have to wait until the paycheck comes in. Like you can really start taking steps to, to transform your wealth future immediately. And I don't see any way that you can build a more secure future for yourself than if you do it yourself. Because waiting for a future government leader is going to take a while. And waiting for a community of people that believe in the middle class is going to take a while. And you're gambling, you're risking your own future on other people's decisions and other people's actions. If you do anything other than start building your wealth right now, start learning, start practicing, start. Oh, spend $113 and get an LLC in Florida. Spend, I think it's $85 getting LLC in Florida. I don't know. Like there's so many steps that you can take that will literally start building revenue income for you now that you control. And once you know how to turn that dial, you just turn the dial up. And that's something you'll, your employer will never let you do. Your employer never wants to turn your dial up. They want.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I want to turn your dial up. Everybody, everybody that's here that can hear my voice. No, I know what you mean.

[Andrew Bustamante]

You're a better boss than me. You're hilarious, dude.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This has been a shocking conversation. I did not expect it to take these twists and turns, which is unusual for me. But where can people follow along with you? You are a fascinating voice.

[Andrew Bustamante]

I appreciate you brother. You can find me online, anywhere on social media at. I have a growing YouTube channel. I'm very proud of Andrew Bustamante. And if you go to everyday spy.com you'll land on my homepage and that's the gateway to my whole universe.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I love it. All right guys, if you have not already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Peace.

[Tom Bilyeu]

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[Andrew Bustamante]

every car, holds every cup.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It has a Carvana logo.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Carvana made it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

They buy and sell cars.

[Andrew Bustamante]

So they made a car cup holder.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So got any good cups lately? Used to.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Just couldn't figure out where in the world to put them.

[Tom Bilyeu]

The World Cup Holder brought to you by Carvana.

[Andrew Bustamante]

Proud sponsors of the World cup holder, sign up today to win [e-mail] not

[Tom Bilyeu]

authorized or endorsed by FIFA. Not a real product for parody and

[Andrew Bustamante]

fair use purposes only.