← Tom Bilyeu's Impact Theory
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- [01:00]
Tom Bilyeu
Welcome to Impact Theory.
- [01:02]
Jordan Peterson
I'm Tom Bilyeu and let me tell you, life has a way of testing us, pushing us to our limits and often bringing us to the absolute brink of chaos. But what if I told you that the key to navigating this turbulent world lies in embracing our responsibilities, aiming for truth, and recognizing our own potential for darkness? That might sound daunting, but today's guest is someone who has delved deep into, into these very questions, offering insights that can guide us towards a meaningful existence amidst all the turmoil that life has to offer.
- [01:35]
Tom Bilyeu
He's a clinical psychologist, a professor, a
- [01:37]
Jordan Peterson
best selling author, YouTuber, and somebody who has been pursued legally over and over for his right for freedom of speech. Please help me in welcoming the one and only Jordan Peterson.
- [01:49]
Tom Bilyeu
Do you think men are being taught to be weak right now?
- [01:53]
Jordan Peterson
Yes, definitely.
- [01:54]
What?
- [01:55]
Oh no, it's worse than being taught. They're being enticed toward that in every way.
- [02:01]
Tom Bilyeu
Tell me more.
- [02:02]
Jordan Peterson
And punished for not doing it. Well, they're enticed towards it by, well, well, the insistence, for example, that there are modes of less worthy being than the masculine, let's say, because masculinity itself is toxic to its core manifestation of patriarchal oppression, that male ambition is not but a manifestation of the force of tyrannical power that not only oppresses the oppressed but rapes the world. Jesus. Brutal. So there's that. So that. And then any deviation from. Any deviation in that direction. The desire of a four year old boy to play with guns, for example. Well, we have to rub. Rub that out. It's like a way I do you. You're going to rub out your son's ability to point and shoot, are you? That's. That's what he'll do his whole life. Going to go to war with that in your feminine virtue, toxic masculinity. It's like great harpy warfare. It's awful. It's awful, you know, but it's. It's part of this belief, and that's derived from this unholy nexus of agreement between the postmodernists and the meta Marxists, that the only story is one of power and men wield the power. And therefore all masculine virtue is identical to the striving for power. And that's immoral in its essence. It's basically the most pathological brandishers of that doctrine presume that male virtue is indistinguishable from malevolence. And so the best you can do if you're a man is to castrate yourself and.
- [03:47]
Tom Bilyeu
Oh God.
- [03:49]
Jordan Peterson
Well, what. That's what's happening in the culture. It's act literally happening. It's not even. It's not even symbolic. That's. That's the offering. That's the ultimate offering to the, to the Great Mother. That's a great way. Freud knew this. Jung knew this. This is well mapped out. This is well mapped out in the psychological and symbolic spheres.
- [04:13]
Tom Bilyeu
You've asked a lot of people. I don't know if you've ever gotten a satisfying answer. I haven't heard it yet. But what happens when the left goes too far?
- [04:20]
Jordan Peterson
Or where. Yeah, where does the left go too far? Yeah, yeah. What's the equity?
- [04:24]
Tom Bilyeu
I. I posed that to. It was either Brett Weinstein or his wife, Heather Hein. And because I said, look, what I see in the world right now is what it looks like when women become pathological, that the things that are good, nurturing, wanting to care for people, when that goes too far. And devouring mother would be your phrase. But it's a perfect phrase. Yeah, it really does.
- [04:50]
Jordan Peterson
Sin of Eve. That's the eternal sin of Eve to, To even clasp the serpent to her breast. My compassion is so overpowering, there's nothing it can't incorporate. Even the fruit of the. Of evil itself. That's the fall of man. Yeah, that's been playing out like in spades, rapidly, miraculously. Yeah, it's very, very bad. Very, very dark.
- [05:21]
Tom Bilyeu
So I know that if we don't find a way to make men. I won't even say strong. I think strong is a part of it.
- [05:28]
Jordan Peterson
But invite them. Invite them to be strong.
- [05:32]
Tom Bilyeu
Invite them to become what healthy masculinity looks like. Now the question becomes to. From where I'm standing, I will give you the image that I use a lot. I use this in Business all the time. When things are getting really hard, I imagine myself in a loincloth, covered in the blood of my enemies, with a big fucking sword in my hand.
- [05:53]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah.
- [05:54]
Tom Bilyeu
And that imagery helps me stay focused, be strong, be hard when I need to be hard. Not that I'm, you know, imagining killing indiscriminately, but that I need to be able to step into aggression. And aggression is the right word. And when I.
- [06:10]
Jordan Peterson
That's why Andrew Tate is so, so attractive to young men.
- [06:13]
Tom Bilyeu
Dude. So much. He's utterly fascinating to me. 90% of what he says scares me to death because it actually is toxic masculinity. But 10% is so good that I'm like, you cannot dismiss this kid.
- [06:27]
Jordan Peterson
People are complicated. Eh, but the thing is, is that the, the more. Okay, so. So the perversion of warrior in some ways is psychopath. And you know that because you watch, like mafia movies. So we all know this. O. There's a dreadful attraction in untrammeled aggression for men who are so crushed that they're castrated. That's a good way of thinking about it. So, so the attraction that the, that the Andrew Tate Persona, let's say, has on those young men, there's actually a lot of that that's positive. Now, that doesn't mean that that's the right target, but it. There are creative ways of being wrong that are helpful. Right. Right. Now I, you know, you see better examples of that precisely that in people like Jocko Willink and David Goggins and Joe Rogan. Like, these are tough guys, you know, but they're not, they don't have the sex appeal, though.
- [07:31]
Tom Bilyeu
That's one thing I'll give Andrew Tate, like.
- [07:33]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, but that's partly because they don't want it. Yeah, yeah, but it isn't that they couldn't have it like, it's that they've. They've decided that everything in its proper place. Rogan has a family, you know, that's. That's where he's put it. And, and hey, man, good work. Good work to him, you know, and that sex appeal that Andrew Tate has, that's the sex appeal of the short term mater. That's the psychopathic sex appeal. That's the dark tetride sex appeal. It's shallow. It's shallow and it will get him in trouble. I mean, it's already got him in trouble.
- [08:05]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah.
- [08:05]
Jordan Peterson
So that's not gonna. Unless he, you know, wises up precisely that it'll get him in trouble, you know, And I'm not trying to take him apart. I mean, I think what he did with his, with his capitalization on female sexuality is absolutely unforgivable. But why? That's enough of that. I mean that was, that was beyond the pale in my estimation. There was no, there's no excuse for that whatsoever. Now you know, if you're a basement dwelling, incel the mere fact that you could imagine ever doing that. Sort of like you imagining yourself, you know, in a loincloth covered with blood. The mere idea that a man, which is what you are, could even imagine manage doing that, having a harem, you know, of women who are offering sexual favors at, at your beck and call. That's a much higher calling than castrated over, obese, resentful loser who can't leave the basement. Right. Because that's an even low, I suppose. You know, when you're in the lowest rung of hell, the rung right above looks like heaven. And, and it's up. It's up. Not aggression. Not aggression is very, very necessary, you know, it's very necessary. And sports are a great way of putting that in its proper place, especially team sports because you can take that competitive instinct and that instinct to win, that instinct to be competent more deeply and you can put it in its proper place. And it is an immense source of implacability. Immense.
- [09:44]
Tom Bilyeu
Now in a social.
- [09:44]
Jordan Peterson
Certainly something I draw on when I lecture, for example, like it's a source of energy, it's just sitting right there.
- [09:52]
Tom Bilyeu
Interesting. Why is that so effective?
- [09:56]
Jordan Peterson
Anger. Aggression is a, a very primordial instinct. Very. And, and it, it activates both the positive emotion systems which are forward moving and the negative emotion systems that awaken you. It's high stress. Like there's nothing more stressful than being angry. It's very strechophysiologically demanding. It's very psychophysiologically stressful. But also as an, as a. Alerting, as a form of alerting arousal. In some ways it's unparalleled and, and it's great to have it at hand. You, you don't want to see. The Freudian model with regard to aggression was repression. Like we have this terrible ID that's trying to make itself clamber upward, you know, all red and tooth and claw. There's some truth in that. But his model of how that was regulated by socialization, it was insufficient. It's not repression, it's not inhibition. Now he kind of knew that because he talked about sublimation. Piaget, Jean Piaget had a much better model. Much More, much wiser. And Piaget observed actual children, a competitive child who socialized, integrates the capacity for aggression into the game, and then he becomes the player every kid wants on his team because he still wants to win. So he's, he's got that forward driving intensity and skill, but. But he does that in a manner that brings everyone along with him. Right. And so then it's not. Aggression isn't inhibited, it's integrated. And, and the more aggression you can integrate, well, the more compelling you are. 100%. Like, that's, that's the, that's what, that's what women are after. That's because the fundamental. I think the fundamental female hero story is essentially Beauty and the Beast and a woman is after a civilized beast. Like literally, that's that all female pornography has that structure. Civilized beast, you know, and it can tilt a little hard in the beast direction when it gets a little masochistic and it, you know, can turn a little hard in the, in the civilized direction when it's kind of a, like when it's a romance that tilts more in the direction of friendship. Woody Allen would probably be a good example of that as a character in his own movies. But, you know, there's a. You can imagine that there's a range in there where the solution can be offered in a variety of different forms.
- [12:18]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah. I think you were the one that pointed me to a book that was utterly transformational. A billion wicked thoughts.
- [12:23]
Jonathan Pageau
Yeah, yeah, Right.
- [12:23]
Tom Bilyeu
What I find really interesting is it isn't just a civilized beast. It is a beast I civilize with my magic hoohah, which is what they say in the book.
- [12:34]
Jonathan Pageau
Right.
- [12:34]
Tom Bilyeu
But that, that I find very interesting and has somehow become.
- [12:38]
Jordan Peterson
Well, women probably did the same thing to men that humans did to wolves.
- [12:42]
Tom Bilyeu
That's interesting, man. Tell me more about that. That is really interesting.
- [12:49]
Jordan Peterson
Well, you know, you want a wolf, like, that's trying to eat you, or do you want a wolf on your side? Well, that's the situation women are in. I mean, you've seen the cartoon representations, Tex Avery's cartoons from the 1940s. I think they were the 40s with the wolf who's like completely sexually, what, Obsessed with text flying out of his eyes. And he's always after the singer who sings, oh, wolfie. You know, it's perfect. It's perfect.
- [13:16]
Jonathan Pageau
Yeah.
- [13:16]
Jordan Peterson
Women definitely tame men, obviously. Yes, clearly. They probably tamed them by offering them sex and fruit, you know, so. Because they weren't gatherers. Women are gatherers. They're not hunters.
- [13:29]
Tom Bilyeu
Really makes me sad that we can't. That the public discussion around this people get so weird about so fast. You actually did a really amazing interview. I think her name was Dr. Sarah Hill.
- [13:40]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sarah was good.
- [13:42]
Tom Bilyeu
I found that utterly fascinating. Talking about just what men do to get women's attention. The demands women make it. Yeah. Literally that all, everything and anything is
- [13:53]
Jordan Peterson
the answer to that 100%.
- [13:54]
Tom Bilyeu
My success is literally tied to my desire to impress my now wife, then fiance. When I really turned it on, I was like whoa, I've got to.
- [14:04]
Jordan Peterson
The correlation between male trappings of socioeconomic success and male reproductive success is like, it's like.07 for women. It's negative. It's zero. It's lower than zero. Like men don't care at all about the. When men aren't looking for in women for what women look for in men. Correct. So. And not a bit even. Not a bit even. And, and that plays out also in the structure of female motivation. You know, men are very competitive.
- [14:36]
Jonathan Pageau
They'll.
- [14:36]
Jordan Peterson
And, and in uni dimensional in some ways. One eyed you might say. Right. And there's an immense symbolic level of web of associations around that idea. The one eyed giant. Well the penis is a one eyed giant like obviously. Right. And it's, it's a seeking, it's a, it's part of a seeking system seeking women. And it'll do that uni dimensionally. Right. And so, and men are like that. Freud knew this, that men are like this from the cellular level up. And so they'll specialize, they'll hyper specialize obsessively in a manner women are just not interested in. They can, but they're not interested in it. And partly they're not interested in it because that isn't what doesn't attract men. That, that capability. You know, the man I worked with in big law firms, for example, hyper competitive men, you know, and they were, they're very concerned about their bonus but not because they needed the money. Said well the money's just a way of keeping score. And they all said that. They all knew that.
- [15:38]
Jonathan Pageau
They laughed about it.
- [15:39]
Jordan Peterson
It's like they wanted a bigger bonus than the next guy. The amount didn't matter. The comparative amount mattered a lot. And it was part of a status ranking, you know, and, and that's everything for young men. Status ranking. God, yes. I mean they'll, they'll die for that. They'll kill for that. Like it's not like we don't know this, it's in the criminology literature. This is crystal clear. No, the gang A tremendous amount of gang violence is status competition. But even more than the even the economic element of that is subordinate to the status competition. So yeah, that's. That's crystal clear. Crystal clear.
- [16:21]
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- [17:20]
Jordan Peterson
Sure.
- [17:21]
Tom Bilyeu
All right, there's another idea that I need to put this post in our counter enlightenment idea up against what's going on in Hamas, Israel, that conflict. You've got two religions supposedly both packaging up a ton of wisdom, but when they collide, it's ugly and it won't go away. Is there a danger in trying to communicate wisdom in a religious package?
- [17:49]
Jordan Peterson
Of course there's danger in every in everything, in every endeavor. The danger is the confusion of the religious enterprise with dogmatic certainty. Fundamentally. I mean, there's no reason to assume at all that the religious enterprise can't degenerate into totalitarian psychopathy, for that matter, does all the time. Not least because it's in the interest of the totalitarian psychopaths to hijack the religious enterprise. Now, they do that all the time. That's their modus operandi again. That's the same people that Christ is contending with constantly in the Gospels. I mean, at multiple levels. He contends with the tyrants themselves from Rome, but it's not like there's no tyrants in the Jewish community. And all of those tyrants use religion to be tyrannical with. And you know, it's the most egregious sin or one of the most egregious sins. So the third commandment depends on how you count them. But the third commandment is generally held to indicate something like do not use God's name in vain. And people think that means don't swear. And it kind of means that some trivial way. But mostly what it means is
- [18:58]
Jonathan Pageau
do
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Jordan Peterson
not claim divine motivation for self serving behavior. And that's what all the protesters are doing. We're so compassionate in public, it's like, no, I don't think so. I think you're narcissistic psychopaths fundamentally. And if you're not, well at that moment, you're certainly possessed by that spirit. Look at how good we are. That's why Christ says in the Gospels not to let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. If you're going to be good, do it in secret. Why? So you don't, so you don't fall prey to the temptation to make your good subordinate to your pride. Right. That's what the bloody Oedipal mothers do all the time. Look how much I love my son.
- [19:42]
Jonathan Pageau
Yeah.
- [19:43]
Jordan Peterson
He doesn't even have a penis anymore. We solved that problem for him.
- [19:47]
Jonathan Pageau
Wow.
- [19:48]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, wow. It's so bloody. It's so brutal. It's so dark, it's, it's virtually unimaginable. It's such a pit. It's so awful. And then the mother can parade around with what, what has she got her son's genitals on a stick so she can parade down the street. Oh, absolutely. And show her neighbors, look how compassionate I am. No matter what he turns into, I still love him. Brutal.
- [20:15]
Tom Bilyeu
Would you say that? Or would it be something more along the lines of he is so loving and so compassionate for having been at my breast that he has essentially voluntarily discarded these toxic name.
- [20:29]
Jordan Peterson
That'd be your cover story. And you know the other part of that secret desire is, well, immense hatred for men. Immense, immense hatred for men for, for or for what that particular breed of woman thinks men stand for and are.
- [20:46]
Tom Bilyeu
So you know, where, where does that come from? If, for.
- [20:48]
Jordan Peterson
Oh, it comes from all sorts of places. Lots of those, lots of women like that were terribly damaged by men, by power mad men, you know, who hurt them in all sorts of terrible ways. They had lots of these people, you know, you hear their story and you think, well, it's no wonder you think that way. But that's, that's, that's no excuse because many people who are terribly abused don't grow up to be abusers. They decide that they're going to take the opposite route. You know, you can learn a lot from being abused. And one of the things you can learn is not to do it.
- [21:20]
Tom Bilyeu
So what idea has possessed them that makes them break bad when that horrific thing happens to them?
- [21:35]
Jordan Peterson
I think you have to read my new book. I can't. I can't. I can't simp. It's too complicated to simplify. See if I can come up with some reasonable. I'm virtuous because I was hurt.
- [21:52]
Jonathan Pageau
That'd be.
- [21:52]
Jordan Peterson
That's part of it for sure. Yeah. And that's part of the. If you're a victim, you're an infant. And if you're a infant victim, then you're moral and to be protected at all cost. And anything that threatens you is a predator. And there's nothing too terrible for a predator. Right. To meet out to a predator, which is another part of the underground attraction for that. Because this is the horror show of the oppressor, oppressed narrative. Once you identify the oppressed and you identify them with innocence, you identify the oppressor with predation or even worse, parasitical predation. It's exactly what Hitler did to the Jews. 100% predatory parasite. What do you do with predatory parasites? You burn them to the ground. No holds barred. No, no punishment is too extreme. And then. Well, then you get Auschwitz. So brutal. And then you get to have all the delights of being the Auschwitz guard. And then the darkest part of your soul has the chance to come out and play.
- [22:54]
Tom Bilyeu
Is that what you think is going on right now? I was. I was taken aback. I did not see it coming. That there were pro Palestine marches on October 8th. So Israel's response.
- [23:08]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's definitely what's happening. I mean, it's very straightforward. It's algorithmic. Oppressor oppressed. Well, how do you know? The oppressors, they're statistically overrepresented in positions of authority. Obviously by definition, then, they're oppressors. Well, who's most statistically overrepresented in positions of authority?
- [23:28]
Jonathan Pageau
Jews.
- [23:30]
Jordan Peterson
That's like, the door's open, man.
- [23:33]
Tom Bilyeu
So why are they the canary in the coal mine?
- [23:35]
Jordan Peterson
Why?
- [23:36]
Tom Bilyeu
In a way that is so bizarre
- [23:38]
Jordan Peterson
throughout history, Part of the reason it's. Part of it is the reason I just said so. Then you might say, well, why are they more likely to be successful? Well, they're smarter. That's part of it.
- [23:47]
Tom Bilyeu
By a lot, you mean at a
- [23:49]
Jordan Peterson
truly biological level that they just as,
- [23:53]
Tom Bilyeu
as a group, they have a higher iq.
- [23:55]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah. And they have neurological problems that go along with that.
- [23:57]
Tom Bilyeu
Like, is that controversial or Are people. But do people debate the fact?
- [24:04]
Jordan Peterson
Stupid people debate it. Well, I'm serious, like the, the, the, the intel, the IQ literature has something in it to appall everyone deeply. I, I mastered that literature in like 19934 with a student of mine who I still work with, brilliant student. He got bounced right out of the whole academic world because of the response to his work partly on iq. Well, we were looking at neuropsychological functions associated with the prefrontal cortex specifically, but it devolved into IQ because everything to do with abstraction devolves into iq. IQ is a brutal literature. And so, and Jews, you know, Ashkenazi Jews specifically, they have IQs that are probably 15 points higher than the typical. Than the typical 15 points. Yeah. So they're radically overrepresented. So you know, at the middle, that doesn't make that much difference, although it makes some. They're very likely to be at the top of their class. But if you go out to like IQ 145, where the serious action starts, Jews are way over represented. And if you don't like that theory, well how about they have a giant conspiracy to take over the world as a substitute theory. So I don't care which of those theories you like. It's like you're going to. Both of them are like fire. Both of those theories are fire. And so, but you're stuck with one or the other. So that's life. That's life, you know, and so what, what should happen is that people should be bloody happy that there's smart Jews around. And the Jews should be very careful not to take their intellectual superiority as a marker of, what would you say? Excess intrinsic worth. No, I'm not saying that they are more prone to that than anyone else, by the way, but it is a, it is a tempt for intelligent people to identify with their intelligence and to become prideful, right? That's actually how, in some ways how God keeps the eternal scales of cosmic justice balance. So imagine you're born with an IQ of 145. Well then you might think, well that's not very fair because what about the poor guy who's born with an IQ of 85? And those are very different. They're very, very, very, very different. And, and you say, well that's completely unfair. It's like fair enough, but the guy with the IQ of 145 is, is prone to the temptations of the pride of the intellect. And that is Lucifer, right? Like that's the worst temptation. And so Lucifer is the Spirit of intellect gone most dreadfully wrong. And so, sure, you can have an IQ of 145, but man, you better, you better be on your knees in gratitude that that gift was given to you. And you better not misuse it, because if that thing takes the upper hand, you are in the hands of the worst possible agent of destruction. And of course, like, well, no, the intellect that goes most dreadfully wrong, that's not the worst possible threat. So obviously that's the worst possible threat. And so, you know, it says in the Gospels that if you've been given a lot, you'll. There'll be a lot demanded of you. And that goes for intelligent people. They better develop some humility, a, a, a, a virtue that's sadly lacking at the moment with our worship of pride, let's say pride and hedonism. Jesus, brutal.
- [27:24]
Tom Bilyeu
Those two ideas in particular, you think grip people today.
- [27:28]
Jordan Peterson
Power, pride and hedonism. Yeah, that's a, that's a. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you make your sexual identity paramount, like you've identified the eye with, with the impulse, essentially, with the whim. Right. Because sex is a whim, like, obviously. Now, does it rule? Well, what, what is it that you are if sex rules? You're the wolf, that's for sure. That's for sure. And a wolf to yourself too. So, you know, and you see this ambivalence on the left because on the one hand, anything goes in all forms of sexuality are to be, like, celebrated, worshiped, essentially, because celebration and worship are the same thing. Yet sex is so dangerous, especially between, like, members of a young heterosexual pair, that absolutely every single bit of it has to be regulated right to the last word. It's like, well, you. Licentiousness breeds tyranny. That's why the of Babylon is on the great scarlet beast of the state at the end of time.
- [28:38]
Tom Bilyeu
Tell me exactly what that means when you break it down.
- [28:41]
Jordan Peterson
Well, imagine that when masculinity degenerates, the state pathologizes, the patriarchy. Pathologizes. Well, what happens to females? They pathologize too. Well, where, how do they pathologize? In the direction of disinhibited sexuality. So 35% of Internet traffic is pornographic.
- [29:06]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah, but that's not driven by women, that's driven by men.
- [29:09]
Jordan Peterson
It's driven by bloody women too.
- [29:11]
Jonathan Pageau
Whoa.
- [29:11]
Jordan Peterson
Parading themselves. Absolutely. It might be like, there's no shortage of electronic pimps and desperate engineers, let's say. But that doesn't mean the women who engage in that are innocent by Any stretch of the imagination. They're, they're. They're doing the same thing with their sexuality that, that, that the, that people granted the talent of intelligence do with their, with their, with their gift. Look at me. It's like. No, no, wrong, wrong. Those women online, displaying themselves, their succubi, they're not human. You're a fool if you think that's human. You're a fool. At minimum, it's a machine human hybrid. A woman doesn't appear in a million places at the same time. Whatever that is, that's not a woman.
- [30:08]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah. What do you make of the only fans dynamic between men and women? The more I look at this, the more I'm getting freaked out. There was a, a woman named.
- [30:17]
Jordan Peterson
Stop looking then.
- [30:19]
Tom Bilyeu
Well, looking at it truly through a research lens, but Belle Delphine, I believe is her name. Back in 2020, she sold 10 million pounds worth of her bath water.
- [30:31]
Jordan Peterson
Oh, that's perfect.
- [30:32]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah.
- [30:32]
Jordan Peterson
The whore of Babylon has a cup full of liquid, by the way, in gold. A gold cup full of liquid that she offers the world. Really? Absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. Look at how wonderful this is. It's actually. What does it say in the book of Revelations? It's filled with the filth of her abominations.
- [30:50]
Jonathan Pageau
Perfect.
- [30:51]
Tom Bilyeu
So what is that? It's people wanting to consume that thing they can't have that they have idolized.
- [30:56]
Jonathan Pageau
Of course. Of course.
- [30:58]
Jordan Peterson
It's. It's. It's people wanting to consume the thing that is denied to them because they hid their light under a bushel.
- [31:07]
Tom Bilyeu
Because they hid. They hid who they could become from themselves and never pursued it.
- [31:13]
Jonathan Pageau
Sure.
- [31:13]
Jordan Peterson
And so they're not attractive to themselves or anyone else.
- [31:16]
Tom Bilyeu
Holy. Okay.
- [31:17]
Jordan Peterson
Yes, that's for sure. Oh, yes. Brutal. Brutal.
- [31:23]
Tom Bilyeu
So you've got women ascending to a position of power with that weird dynamic of postmodernism. They've been given a gift of being able to persuade men through their beauty to do what they will to get the attention that they want. Now, as a mechanical hybrid, they're able to appear in tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of places, sit on
- [31:49]
Jordan Peterson
the chests of men and take their essence from them.
- [31:53]
Tom Bilyeu
And then men are hiding their potential away from themselves because they're punished for. Yeah, I was going to say.
- [31:59]
Jordan Peterson
But then that gives them an excuse for not doing it because they think, well, I'm going to the young guys, let's say, who decide to be useless. You know, some of it's genuine response to not being encouraged and to being punished. Some of it is. But some of It. It's pretty convenient. It's like, you don't have to put your cross on your shoulder. It's like, no one wants me to do that anyways. It's like, well, yeah, that's always been the case. And I mean, in some ways, you know, there's. There's new impediments to striding forward confidently, but there's always been impediments.
- [32:33]
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- [33:03]
Tom Bilyeu
You know, so interesting. So I train anybody that will listen to that. You need to have beliefs in your life. And since facts are overwhelming, it's not about recognizing what's true, it's about recognizing what's useful is how I think of it. So you have a set of beliefs, you have a set of values. So you have hierarchy.
- [33:23]
Jordan Peterson
What relationship to the right end. That's correct.
- [33:26]
Tom Bilyeu
A thousand percent.
- [33:27]
Jordan Peterson
Which is why I always lead with.
- [33:28]
Tom Bilyeu
You have to have a goal, and that goal needs to be honorable.
- [33:30]
Jordan Peterson
So you've got.
- [33:31]
So the thing is, that's where your God lies. Your God lies while your God lies in the ineffable of. In the ineffable extent of what you regard as useful. So imagine that useful tilts in a. In a direction. The sum total of all that would. Of all that would be most properly useful. The essence of that, that's the God. That's the implicit God.
- [33:55]
Yeah.
- [33:55]
Tom Bilyeu
I'm realizing I have built from the ground up a system that is designed to do all the things that religion does. It's really interesting. This to me is. It's fascinating because whenever you discover the same thing from multiple different disciplines, you can be pretty sure you're converging on the truth, because everybody's just going, what actually works. But the last thing, the last part of my cocktail is rules. So you need rules in your life, basically. There need to be things that you don't do.
- [34:26]
Jordan Peterson
That's good. That's good. That's exactly right. That's. That's where conscious. So you could imagine the spirit of God in the Old Testament makes himself manifest in two forms, calling and conscience. And conscience is that what you just described, it's like the guardrails. It's like you're going off the path, you know, so there's fences and warnings on the conscience side, but it's the same thing.
- [34:49]
Jonathan Pageau
And that.
- [34:49]
Jordan Peterson
It's the dynamic between. This is what happens in the movie Pinocchio. So Pinocchio is called out into the world. His father is benevolent, a benevolent creator. That's Geppetto. He's called out into the world to make himself manifest, to realize himself, to become real. And there's two things that attract him. He wants to go out and learn and have his adventure. That's the calling. And. But that has to be allied with the conscience. And the reason for that is the calling alone gets him in trouble. Like, first of all, it entices him to becoming a narcissistic, psychopathic, manipulative actor. That's when he's on stage, right? Then it entices him into lying to get away with things and to get what he wants. So that's another extension, that manipulation. Then it entices him to become neurotic enough so that he can take a permanent holiday. Then he goes to Pleasure island, where he can engage in hedonism. That's where the slavers are.
- [35:44]
Jonathan Pageau
Right.
- [35:45]
Jordan Peterson
And so he needs. That's what. That's what. Just the calling alone, you know, will take him places that are attractive but not appropriate. You need a conscience along for the ride. And that's Jiminy Cricket. Right, And Jiminy Cricket is what bugs you. Exactly. Yes. And so that's one of the places you can find your destiny, is in what bothers you. There's going to be an array of things that make themselves manifest to you as callings of your conscience. Those are problems. Those are your problems. Why is that your problem? It's like, well, can you stop thinking about it? Does it bug you all the time? Well, hey, there you go. That's your destiny. Right?
- [36:25]
Tom Bilyeu
Where does this all go? You've got. Canada has declined economically. You guys are now making 60% of what Americans are making. China, we can do worse than that. Oh, Jesus, let's hope not. China is watching everything. Everybody does. They're way beyond 1984. 2024 in the US is. It's terrifying, the election. Does it actually build up to civil war?
- [36:46]
Jordan Peterson
I don't know.
- [36:46]
Jonathan Pageau
Yep.
- [36:47]
Tom Bilyeu
Uk, you've got conflict. Russia, Ukraine, you've got conflict. Israel,
- [36:53]
Jonathan Pageau
Europe.
- [36:54]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah. Like, where does this go?
- [36:56]
Jordan Peterson
It depends on how many of us shoulder our crosses and walk uphill. I really mean that. Like, we're at that point, wake up, figure out which side you're on.
- [37:10]
Tom Bilyeu
If you were a betting man, what odds do you give
- [37:16]
Jordan Peterson
us Civil war?
- [37:17]
Tom Bilyeu
What odds do you give World War iii?
- [37:22]
Jonathan Pageau
Well, we.
- [37:24]
Jordan Peterson
We're already in World War iii, so I'd give that a hundred percent. How far will it go? Depends on how stiff necked we are. Right. So the Egyptian tyrant is visited by, is it 10 plagues. The last plague is the destruction of the future itself. That's the death of the firstborn. So, you know, it depends on how hard we have to be hit before we wake up. And there's no end to that, you know, I mean, God destroys the whole world in a flood, you know, that never happened. It's like, how about it's happening all the time? How about it's happened forever, it's happening now. It will happen forever. How high does the water have to rise till people learn? And what does it mean to learn? Well, this is why I'm a psychologist, not a politician or a theologian to whatever degree I lay pretensions to that. Someone concerned with spiritual matters, let's say psychological matters. Redemption is a matter of individual determination. So that's why I operate at the biggest level of the individual. How far will we have to go? Depends on how many sins you decide to continue harboring. How are you connected? How is that decision connected to the destiny of the world? We all bear the world on our shoulders. How. How can that be true? Here's one way of thinking about it. How much better would the people around you be if you were better? Some, obviously. What's the ultimate extent of that? What if you were everything you could be? That's what you're called upon to be. You're called upon to be everything you can be. Why not least. Because the. Try getting through the world without doing it, then you'll end up in the position of Cain. You didn't offer your best. You'll be rejected by man, woman and God and yourself. And then what? Then you're bitter, then you're fratricidal, then you're murderous, then you're genocidal. Then the flood comes. Or you erect the Tower of Babel. It's always the same. And now you can see it. Like it's just right there. Why? Because it's happening so fast.
- [40:10]
Tom Bilyeu
It's been amazing. Jordan. Where can people follow you? Where can they get your book?
- [40:15]
Jordan Peterson
Well, I just. My book has just been announced. It won't be available until November, but you can pre order it. And so any standard book Selling site has it available as of two days ago. People can come on and hear me talk about the things we talked about today on my tour. I've got 48 cities left. I'm going to tour with my wife, who speaks as well and is getting very good at it. I'm going to tour with Jonathan Pagio for some of it and with Constantine Kissing. So that'll be very interesting. And then we're also launching Peterson Academy in very short order. And that's our attempt to provide people with the highest quality possible education, genuine education in the general arts and sciences domain at approximately the undergraduate level to as many people as we can possibly manage at the. In the most accessible possible way. That'll be launching very soon. I've been working on an app with my son called Essay that teaches people how to think and write. And you need to know that because you need to master the verbal domain so that you're articulate and competent. And young men are never told this. There's. Why do you like rap musicians? Because they're articulate. It's attractive. There's nothing more attractive than being articulate. So get your words in order there, guys. And this Essay app helps teaches you how to task the right questions, to search for the answers in the appropriate place, to examine the revelations that you're granted, to sort them out and to put yourself together. And so we organize ourselves at the highest level with words. So words matter. Every single word matters. Every single word. Those are the fruits of the tree that. Those are the fruits that the tree that you most truly are has to offer. That's a good way of thinking about it. Yeah. So I love that that's the situation.
- [42:34]
Tom Bilyeu
There it is.
- [42:35]
Jordan Peterson
Reading the book Beyond Order, there was a part in there that struck me as this is going to be the new battleground that Jordan is going to be fighting on.
- [42:47]
Jonathan Pageau
Do you have.
- [42:48]
Jordan Peterson
Do you have a sense of what in the book is going to trigger people?
- [42:57]
Jonathan Pageau
No. I mean, I didn't think that the lobster in the last book was going to be so pilloried. I mean, I thought it was. I thought it was really cool. It's like, oh, my God. Serotonin mediates dominance in lobsters and people. How ancient, how remarkable. But, well, that took off in all sorts of directions. You know, people made fun of it. It's like, well, you can make fun of 350 million years of evolutionary history if you want. You can put your social constructionism up against 350 million years of evolutionary history. Good luck to you. I didn't think it was like. And, you know, the idea that I was trying to insist that because lobsters live in hierarchies, that hierarchies are the source of all moral value. You know, that's. I was trying to insist that hierarchies are in. Are so inevitable that you see nervous systems adapting to them across virtually every level of animal. And why? Well, because some things are valuable, and within any given domain of value, some valuable things are more valuable than other things. And so you have a hierarchy. There's no avoiding it. As long as you need something. As long as there's scarcity, a hierarchy is inevitable. Yeah. Nobody cares how many BIC pens you have. It's because they're not scarce. So you can't have status because you have 200 of them. But as soon as there's scarcity, there's a hierarchy, and there's always scarcity of one form or another, no matter how rich you get. You know, if you're. If you have a hundred million dollars, Picasso paintings are still scarce.
- [44:47]
Jordan Peterson
Yeah, the, the pushback on the, the lobster thing, it falls into two things for me. One, I don't understand why people look for a reason not to listen to somebody, which to me, most of the people coming after you for that one just. They didn't want you to be right or to be heard. And so they went after something that they thought they could memeify and, and shut down on.
- [45:08]
Jonathan Pageau
And then the other one, I don't understand that. Like, I understand that. I. It's obvious why people are looking for a reason not to listen to someone. It's like, how goddamn many people can you listen to? There's 9 billion of them, you know, so you have to not listen to almost everyone. And so you'll fall for any excuse. And sometimes that's not so good, you know, because you have a bias that prejudices you against a viewpoint that you actually need. That's a problem. But the phenomenon itself, like, you know, you, you mentioned. Sorry to bring this up again, but because it's germane and relevant. Someone said something disparaging about me, and they were on your staff. It's like, well, you have lots of options for guests. You're looking for no. You're always looking for no because you can only say yes to a very limited number of things. So that's another reason we have to be very careful about our prejudices because we need them, you know, to. I don't mean prejudice in that, obviously, in this inappropriate social sense, but, Jesus, we have to shield ourselves from an excess of information. We're very limited capacity processors, no question. I. I don't understand, though. I don't understand really. And it's really killing me. I think I might, Might mean that literally. I don't understand why I'm so controversial. I can't figure that out. It's very distressing to me.
- [46:46]
Jordan Peterson
You want me to take a stab at it?
- [46:48]
Sure.
- [46:49]
Jonathan Pageau
Good metaphor.
- [46:51]
Jordan Peterson
All right. So my gut instinct in terms of why a certain type of person responds negatively to you is when you think of a person as a blank slate and that we all have this collective responsibility to make sure that everybody ends up the same, then you saying some people are better at something than others already feels judgmental. And so it is. Oh, yes, for sure.
- [47:25]
And.
- [47:26]
But when you have a collectivist view and you believe that everyone should have equal outcome, which, by the way, I think everybody, yourself included, like, if only.
- [47:35]
Right.
- [47:36]
Like, that would be amazing. Like if everybody could live truly in harmony and that didn't violate principles of just the human animal. Which is why I always remind people to remember you're having a biological experience. But you say things that are. They violate a deeply compassionate person's desire to take care of everybody. This sort of no Child Left behind type thing. And when you insist on in your own life, like, I'm only going to say that which is true, and I'm certainly not going to let somebody force me to say something I don't believe is true. So now with that, and by the way, all of that, and this is a key thing, I think you have to understand you're fighting with a level of intensity that makes sense. When you realize your obsession with what happened in the 20th century, the Gulag archipelago, what happened there, obviously Nazi Germany, Maus, China, like the number of people that have been killed in these essentially social experiments. So you have this deep, intense thing trying to get people to understand, like, hierarchies are real. There's no escaping them. Not everybody is as good as everybody else at everything. And by the way, you have to shoulder responsibility. And that's where people are like you. Just to them, I cannot. And before I say what they think, I will reiterate, you have changed my life forever and for the better. I will forever be grateful to the things that you continue to put out into the world. And I missed you horribly as a thought leader during 2020 of all years to be on a Jordan Peterson diet. I was not happy about that. But what they think of is that you're being mean for the sake of being mean, that you're not trying to help them. See, you cannot pretend reality isn't reality in pretending that the dragon is not there. The dragon does not go away. The dragon grows more powerful, more likely to devour you and your family. And so you get smaller, but they don't see that. And so that's why I'm like, when I see people attack you, I'm like, Jesus Christ. How many times does he have to say, this is about a balance between order and chaos, that you need both of these things, that you have to show the responsibility because that is what reality demands that you're in, you're nested in an evolutionary context. There are things like hierarchies that will play out in, in the, the body. Exactly. And so you may not want to feel bad when you walk in the room and are worse at something than everybody else, but you're going to. You may not want to feel bad when you're rejected, but you're going to. You may not want to feel bad because you're just lazing around your house and not doing anything, but you're going to. And you have peered into enough of human nature to recognize, hey, there are just certain truisms. You've now given us 24 of the. I forget how many were originally in the core article. 49 or whatever.
- [50:24]
Jonathan Pageau
42.
- [50:25]
Jordan Peterson
42. Okay, we've got 24. Yes.
- [50:27]
Jonathan Pageau
The answer to the life, the universe and everything. Right?
- [50:29]
Jordan Peterson
Is that all?
- [50:30]
Jonathan Pageau
George Hofstadter's number.
- [50:32]
Jordan Peterson
So. Oh my God, that's perfect. Actually, it is this incredible thing. Once you break free from ideology, and that's where again, this is one of the rules in beyond order not to fall prey to ideology. This is where I thought you were going in the beginning with identity. I thought you were going to say identity has become pathological because it has become. It's been simplified. You talk about this in beyond order. Once you simplify something, and this is how an ideologue gets you. They simplify it, they make it very understandable, becomes very clear who's in and who's out. You can reward and punish based on that. People are grabbing these unnegotiated, self determined pieces of identity that don't necessarily bring value to the larger world, which will create dissonance in their own life because they've got all this substructure running tradable value.
- [51:26]
Jonathan Pageau
You know what I mean? It's like, I'm not saying they're like your race, I suppose, is a value, but it's not a tradable value. And your gender and your sex the same thing. It's like. I guess it's partly because there's no scarcity. You know, it's like, we've got enough white people. Being white doesn't buy you anything. So. And I'm not saying that with any pleasure.
- [51:53]
Jordan Peterson
That's what I think people miss. This is why I think people come after you. They don't recognize that you're not saying it. You're not relishing in this. You want people to be happy. And I'm always so confused. Jordan, I don't know why you remain as vulnerable and open as you are. After the time saying I was like, what the fuck? You sounded so kind, open, compassionate. After, what, four years of, you know, some percentage of the world relentlessly slandering you? And obviously you get people that cheer you on. Probably way more people that cheer you on than don't. But you still remain vulnerable, which is fucking incredible. But the fact that they don't recognize that you're trying to help. Like, I could get it if they said, hey, look, I disagree with Jordan on this side or the other, but
- [52:42]
Jonathan Pageau
maybe they do recognize that. You know, there's a lot of cynicism about the help. And I. I can't understand why you'd be cynical about help unless you weren't that help. Weren't that pleased about the idea of help. You know, like all these deplorables that I'm helping. These angry young men, you know, they don't deserve help. Well, I don't think that. I don't know anyone that doesn't deserve help. You know, there's this idea in the New Testament that you should love your enemies. It's like, why would you do that? Well, it'd be better if they weren't your enemies. And their unnecessary suffering doesn't help. It's not helpful. It's not like you don't. You know, anyone with any sense, anyone who's human, is liable to take pleasure in vengeance or even in. But, you know, when people go after the journalists that have gone after me, I don't take any pleasure in that. I don't sit back at my home and rub my hands and think, you know, you got what was coming to you. I do think sometimes you've got what was coming to you. But I think of that more like watching someone in the road. You know, they're in the road and they have their back turned and a truck runs over them. It's like, well, you were in the road and there was a truck. And so you got what was coming to you because you were on the road and there was a truck. But I don't take any pleasure in it. I don't see that it's helpful.
- [54:24]
Jordan Peterson
What do you want people to get out of beyond order? It is extraordinarily well thought through. It is very well laid out. Each sentence stacks like a brick upon the next. I wouldn't advise. I don't know if you feel differently, but I wouldn't advise people to read them out of order. It's literally this very careful case being made that taken in totality, is breathtaking.
- [54:49]
I think you can read them in either order.
- [54:50]
Jonathan Pageau
I think you can read them in either order. I tried. Maybe. Maybe they're better read in order. But I think that if you read the second one first, then it would color your vision of the first one. I mean, the rules.
- [55:05]
Jordan Peterson
I think you're right. 12 rules for life and beyond order. It doesn't matter. They're yin and yang.
- [55:09]
Jonathan Pageau
Well, you mean the rules themselves.
- [55:11]
Jordan Peterson
The rules themselves just. It stacks so well, so otherwise it
- [55:14]
Jonathan Pageau
wouldn't be a book. I mean, each. The thing about writing a book is that you're outside of time and space in relationship with the book, because chapter one comes before chapter 12, but not when you're writing it. You can go back and modify chapter one because of chapter 12. I did try to tie them together so that they make a book, you know, and they. One builds upon another. That's like. That's the musical element of it as well. The recurrent themes. I'm glad you liked it. See, I can't tell. I can't evaluate it. I'm hoping that it. It's of the same level of quality that the first book was. And I'm not making any claims saying that about the level of quality of the first book. I'm just. That was as good as I could do. And I wrote the second one under unbelievable duress. Yeah. And so I can't tell if it's, you know, whether that was a cursor. Well, it was certainly a curse. No doubt about that. I don't know how it impacted the book, though.
- [56:15]
Jordan Peterson
It's hard to say.
- [56:16]
Jonathan Pageau
What do I want people to get out of it? Well, I'm hoping that they find it useful the same way they seem to have found the first one. I'm embarrassed. Actually hurts me. Actually, both of them hurt me, I would say because I'm ashamed, you know, of what's happened to me. What do you mean and they're books about life. And my life is. I'm very hurt. I'm a very destroyed person in many ways. And so I feel unworthy.
- [56:56]
Jordan Peterson
Unworthy of what?
- [57:09]
Jonathan Pageau
You name it. I hope people find it useful. You know, I hope it alleviates some unnecessary suffering. That's goal.
- [57:24]
Jordan Peterson
Here's how I read your books and everything that you've put out into the world. The people that should write the instruction manual are the people that have struggled. And in your suffering, you have been able to piece together useful information, which is the barometer by which I judge a book's value. For sure. The reason people flock to your lectures, they buy your book is you have made in modern times the single most coherent and useful instruction manual for life, period. So I fear that the brokenness that you feel, the heartache that you feel translates into something usable that couldn't be written by somebody that hadn't gone through what you've gone through.
- [58:18]
Jonathan Pageau
Well, I would like to believe that was true. You know, there's a bit too much self justification in it for my taste, but I thought the other day I'd probably do this too, and I would. I have to record an announcement for this book because it's coming out on Tuesday. I thought the best announcement would be just to thank people. True. All of their kind attention. I'm very fortunate in that regard. I get letters from people all the time that they open up their hearts, you know, it's really something. But I am somewhat nonplussed, let's say for all this work, I'm pretty broken.
- [59:11]
Jordan Peterson
In general or just in this moment?
- [59:18]
Jonathan Pageau
Don't know. I think in general,
- [59:26]
Jordan Peterson
man.
- [59:26]
Well, I will say this as somebody whose life you have touched and the thing I want you to recognize in me, as I imagine countless other people want you to recognize in them more than warm wishes is I have put to use the things that you're teaching and they have made my life better and they have made the lives of those around me better. And, man, it is really heartbreaking to
- [59:55]
Tom Bilyeu
see you
- [59:59]
Jordan Peterson
go through what you're going through now. And I certainly get it. And I don't know you well enough to offer you any sort of familial consolation. So I will just say that what you do matters probably more than you think it does, certainly as much as you think it does. And I had never met you through 2020, and I started reaching out to people that we both know asking about you because I. I believe that the world needs the insights that you uniquely have coming from Your background of mythology and understanding what is deeply ingrained in the human psyche from an evolutionarily shaped perspective, and that nobody is putting it together the way that you're putting it together. And the fact that you've been, you know, I mean, hopefully it's. It's small in comparison to the people that are supporting you. But, Jesus, like, I don't. I know I would not put up with the amount of shit that you've put up with. And the fact that I think the individual is the only way to approach any systemic problem. Like, you just have to deal with the individuals and then from there it will echo out into society. And so the fact that that's your approach. I kept telling people, we need Jordan Peterson right now. And I'm so grateful you're back. And I know this book will be very successful because.
- [61:29]
Jonathan Pageau
Well, I'm glad you liked it. I'm glad you liked it because, like I said, it's really hard for me to evaluate it. You know, sometimes I. Well, I have every possible thought that you could have about it. You know, sometimes I read it and I think, oh, that seemed to have turned out pretty good. And other times I think, Jesus, I've said this 50 times already and, yeah, I'm all over the place. I can't. I think that happens. It happens when you write a book.
- [61:54]
Jordan Peterson
You get so.
- [61:55]
Jonathan Pageau
Because, you know, if. When you read someone else's book, you can kind of tell if the ideas are original, at least insofar as you're concerned. Well, I can't tell because these are my ideas. Well, not all of them, obviously, but they're ideas I'm at least deeply familiar with. So I can't tell to what degree it's original. None of it. And so I. And it's. It's also. I suppose I'm quite apprehensive about its release in some sense, because I've set myself up an impossible second act, you know, because the first book was so insanely popular. I think it's 6 million copies now in. In all the languages it's been published in. So that's impossible. That never happens. Right. It's. It's certainly. It's like winning the lottery. It's probably less probable than winning the lottery. In fact, I'm virtually certain that it's less probable than winning the lottery. And to. To imagine doing that twice is. Well, that's just. It happens, but it's highly improbable. Anyways, it's going to all come and then, you know, I'm in a different space than I was when I released this first book. So this is compared to all this is going to be compared to all my electronic avatars which are busily working out there in the world. I think there's more of me outside of me now than there is inside of me. Weirdly enough, that's another phenomenon. I can't really get my hand, my. My mind around, you know, the power of YouTube. Jesus, that's quite the technology. When I put those first videos up, you know, I was. This was bothering me, this piece of legislation. And for a variety of reasons, some of which we've discussed, I talked to my wife and my son sort of casually. I said, well, I'm going to make these videos.
- [63:49]
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