Fragile Ceasefire with Iran, Melania & Epstein, & The Greatest Data Heist in Chinese History | The Tom Bilyeu Show w. Michael Malice

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Tom Bilyeu’s Impact Theory
Episode: Fragile Ceasefire with Iran, Melania & Epstein, & The Greatest Data Heist in Chinese History | The Tom Bilyeu Show w/ Michael Malice
Date: April 10, 2026
Host: Tom Bilyeu
Guest: Michael Malice

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tom Bilyeu sits down with Michael Malice—author, commentator, and self-proclaimed “troll king”—to dig into some of the most chaotic global headlines: the shaky ceasefire between Iran and Israel, U.S. political infighting, Melania Trump’s surprise intervention in the Epstein saga, the biggest data heist in Chinese history, and more. With Malice’s signature mix of humor, skepticism, and historical insight, the conversation breaks apart major news, highlights underlying trends, and reflects on the future of politics, security, economics, and culture.

---

Table of Contents

• 1. The Fragile Iran-Israel Ceasefire (05:03–25:55)
  • Violation Details and Political Maneuvering (05:03–14:59)
  • Historical and Geopolitical Context (15:01–26:09)
• 2. Fracturing on the American Right (35:57–47:40)
  • Trump vs. Megyn Kelly, Tucker Carlson, Alex Jones, and Candace Owens
• 3. Melania Trump’s Epstein Speech and the Streisand Effect (59:30–68:14)
• 4. The Greatest Data Heist in Chinese History (71:03–78:42)
  • Technical Details, Repercussions, and AI’s Role in Cybersecurity
• 5. The California Warehouse Arson and Economic Instability (79:03–100:10)
  • Class Rage, K-shaped Economy and Historical Patterns
• 6. Bonus: Canadian Acronyms, Victimhood Politics, & Identity (100:58–111:05)
• 7. Notable Quotes & Moments
• 8. Show Close & Graphic Novel Promo (111:25)

---

<a name="iran"></a>

1. The Fragile Iran-Israel Ceasefire (05:03–25:55)

Violation Details and Political Maneuvering

• Ceasefire “Hanging by a Thread”: Just after the ceasefire was declared, both sides accused the other of violations:
  • UAE, Bahrain & Qatar intercepted Iranian missiles and drones; Saudi Arabia issued defense warnings ([05:17]).
  • Strait of Hormuz remains effectively closed despite Trump linking ceasefire to its reopening; massive shipping backup ([06:28–07:12]).
  • U.S. troop buildup continues — over 50,000 in the region, major Marine and Airborne deployments, not typical of ceasefire posture ([07:12]).
• Trump’s Bluffing as Negotiation:
  • Malice: “This is clearly a negotiating tactic he’s used over and over. I don’t understand…how people are falling for it or thinking he’s crazy.” ([08:07])
  • Both agree Trump is using bombastic threats as leverage, and critics’ outrage incentivizes more extreme posturing ([09:02–09:57]).

Historical and Geopolitical Context

• Automata & History Repeats ([10:27]):
  • Tom: “My base assumption is this is a deterministic universe...We just respond in pretty knowable ways en masse.”
  • Real change only comes after real pain and suffering. Is there hope for creative peace, or just more cycles?
• Empathy for All Sides ([15:01–17:01]):
  • Malice calls out the Western reluctance to see things from Iran’s view: “If another country dropped a bomb on the White House, we’re not gonna be like, you know what, just cut us a check and we’re square.”
  • Both agree that for both Iranian and Trump governments, the situation is existential — regime change is a real threat if either appears weak ([17:01]).
• Iran’s Internal Dynamics ([17:58]):
  • Most regime-change-minded Iranians have left the country since 1979. “It could always get worse” — revolutionary cycles rarely deliver improvement.
• Declining World Order & The “Jellyfish” Metaphor ([19:51]):
  • Tom: "What the world order feels like to me right now...it’s this insanely dangerous thing where all these alliances...it’s just all like becoming blobby."
  • Malice interjects with zoological precision, questioning the analogy’s accuracy — emphasizing multi-party chaos and the weakening of stable coalitions in Europe and beyond ([20:42]).

---

<a name="gopfractures"></a>

2. Fracturing on the American Right (35:57–47:40)

• Trump Vs. Conservative Pundits: Trump launches into a lengthy online rant attacking Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens, and Alex Jones, calling them low-IQ, talentless, and more ([36:33]):
  • “They lost their jobs on TV, nobody wants to hear from them. They’re just dumb and they have no good ideas.” — Tom quoting Trump’s post ([36:35])
  • Discussion about whether this signals serious fracture in the Republican coalition, or just “sending people to the wilderness” as Trump routinely does ([37:43]).
• Malice on Internal Coalition:
  • “The only thing they had in common was a hatred of progressivism. ...these people realize they don’t really have that much in common. US interventionism abroad being a prime example.”
  • Tom: “There’s just so much noise...it’s going to be impossible for Trump to keep the coalition together.” ([42:08])
• J.D. Vance, Rubio, and the Future:
  • Speculation about next-generation leaders: Malice is skeptical of JD Vance’s political instincts; Tom sees Rubio as a possible inheritor, but power brokers are maneuvering ([44:42–47:40]).
  • “If it’s April 2014...and I said, Tom Bilyeu, the future of the Republican Party is Donald Trump, you would try not to laugh in my face...[But] that’s...what ended up happening.” — Malice ([47:40])

---

<a name="melania"></a>

3. Melania Trump’s Epstein Speech and the Streisand Effect (59:30–68:14)

• Melania’s Impromptu Speech ([59:30]):
  • Calls on Congress to give Epstein’s survivors a public hearing; claims she was not introduced by Epstein or a victim; “This has to stop right now.”
  • Tom wonders if she acted with or without Trump’s consent, suggesting either personal motivation or an attempt to get ahead of an as-yet-unrevealed story ([60:39]).
• Malice’s Analysis:
  • “She’s a lot more canny than people appreciate...so it seems unlikely to me she would just snap and be like, enough is enough. Especially because it has slowed down.”
• On Epstein Files and Cataclysm:
  • Both skeptical of any truly explosive revelations remaining: “If there was anything really incriminating there, it would have been scrubbed a long time ago.” — Malice ([64:55])
  • American elites are more insulated than overseas counterparts; scandals that would destroy careers elsewhere have less effect in the U.S.

---

<a name="chinaheist"></a>

4. The Greatest Data Heist in Chinese History (71:03–78:42)

• The Breach ([71:03–73:35])
  • Group called “Flaming China” hacks the National Supercomputing Center; 10 petabytes exfiltrated — “The entire Library of Congress is less than 1 petabyte… this is like some egregious number more.” — Tom ([71:24])
  • Data for sale on Telegram and the Dark Web; includes sensitive defense tech, missile schematics, aerospace research, and more.
• How the Hack Was Done:
  • A “compromised VPN domain,” followed by botnet extraction over six months — not a sophisticated hack ([73:35]).
  • Nation-states only have the infrastructure to even process a data set this large.
  • Could be a hoax, but technical previews suggest it’s real ([74:01]).
• Rise of AI in Hacking and Defense ([75:06–75:54]):
  • AIs like Claude Mythos and Glasswing are now discovering thousands of vulnerabilities in common software — “Genie’s out of the bottle,” Malice warns.
  • New AI can test systems for vulnerabilities faster than any human could; an open source version could make this a global issue within 18 months ([75:54]).
• Lighter Moment: Discussion of plant aesthetics (“plants that look like they are in pain”), cactus trivia, and insect names ([77:51–78:32]).

---

<a name="arson"></a>

5. The California Warehouse Arson and K-Shaped Economy (79:03–100:10)

• The Incident ([79:03]):
  • Disgruntled worker sets fire to massive warehouse, stating: “All you had to do was pay us enough to live.” — Video goes viral.
  • Warehouse workers earned $18/hour, but local rents make independence impossible ([80:55]).
• Economic Context:
  • Tom: “When you have a catastrophically K-shaped economy, you’re going to run into problems...people will only put up with so much” ([81:19]).
  • Recap of the French Revolution as warning: “The guillotine never stops with the first enemy... The movement that started...ended up collapsing into a bloodbath” ([82:16–82:39])
  • “If you can’t make ends meet... and billionaires keep getting wealthier, people will revolt. This is a tale as old as time.”
• Malice’s Counterpoint:
  • Urges caution on over-interpreting the event as revolutionary; America is typically not “revolution friendly.”
  • Suggests system flexibility and political re-orientation have historically preempted true class-based revolution ([86:05]).
• Tom’s Macro Warnings ([87:02–100:10]):
  • U.S. is at “the end of the physics” for the economy; money printing can’t solve core problems.
  • The consequences: America defaults—either via hyperinflation or an outright refusal to pay debt. This could lead to domestic unrest or loss of dollar reserve status.
  • Malice remains skeptical: “Every generation, it’s a catastrophic catastrophe...we end up not driving off the cliff.” But Tom argues, “We’re now at the physics level...If you start draining the water [the debt], this won’t happen.”
  • Only massive economic growth from AI or radical political change could save the situation ([90:28–99:13]).

---

<a name="canadaacronym"></a>

6. Bonus: Canadian Acronyms, Victimhood Politics, & Identity (100:58–111:05)

• Unpacking Canada’s Latest Official Victimhood Acronym ([101:04–104:41])
  • “Genocide of MMIWG2SLGBTQIA+” — Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women, Girls, and Two Spirit Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender Queer Questioning Intersex Asexual (plus).
  • Malice and Tom lampoon the length and unwieldiness; query what’s actually included (pansexual? non-binary? missing boys?).
  • Malice on bureaucrats and status: “Now this lady has a bigger bureaucracy and a bigger budget…Give me money, give me staff, I’m going to run for higher office.” ([107:55])
  • Tom: Such expansions of identity status “just shows people need to be chased by lions—a lot of folks are operating at too abstract a level.”
• Trans Issues & Healthcare Outcomes:
  • Tom: “I haven’t fact checked this enough, but there was a study that…post-surgery, rates of suicidal ideation skyrocketed.”
  • Malice: “If you’re told if you get these surgeries, you’ll be able to live the life as a female and that is not true…You ran out of options.”
  • Canadian assisted suicide rates now reportedly top 100,000 — “It’s wild.” ([111:13])

---

<a name="quotes"></a>

7. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s clearly a negotiating tactic he’s used over and over. I don’t understand at this point how people are falling for it or thinking he’s crazy.”
  — Michael Malice (08:07)

• “You run a true/false filter. They run an us/them filter. And if Trump is a ‘them,’ no matter what he does he can’t do anything right.”
  — Michael Malice (09:58)

• “The only thing that history has shown can turn the course on something like this...is pain and suffering.”
  — Tom Bilyeu (10:27)

• “If another country dropped a bomb on the White House, we’re not going to be like, ‘Just cut us a check and we’re good.’”
  — Michael Malice (15:15)

• “It can always get worse.”
  — Michael Malice (17:58, on revolutions)

• “I think JD [Vance] thinks he’s smarter than Trump in all the ways that don’t matter.”
  — Michael Malice (44:42)

• “America is a lot smarter and stronger than that.”
  — Michael Malice (99:13, on dollar's reserve status and stability)

• “Not just Japan, but many people will have a reaction like that...all of our energy costs...because that asshole went in and then he bounced when he got what he needed.”
  — Tom Bilyeu (25:04, on geopolitics/energy)

• “They have a way more sophisticated...sinister and has a huge impact on the kind of person that’s able to get to power.”
  — Tom Bilyeu (54:25, on “deep state” & the Israel lobby)

---

<a name="close"></a>

8. Show Close & Graphic Novel Promo (111:25-end)

• Tom and Michael close with mutual compliments and a plug for Malice’s new graphic novel “Unwanted:”
  • “If you are interested in somebody who can handle incredible ideas, but done in a narrative way…this is the book for you.” — Tom ([111:47])
• Discussion of the Ripperverse, progress on stretch goals, and a call to pre-order.

---

For Listeners New to the Show

This episode offers a comprehensive, deeply skeptical, and often humorous breakdown of world politics, economic peril, the chaotic U.S. right, digital security, and the latest in cultural “victimhood Olympics,” all filtered through Tom and Michael’s contrasting, candid perspectives. The style is fast, anecdotal, and rich in analogies—both precise and playfully debated.

---

[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Tom Bilyeu]

Mom, can you tell me a story?

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car. Was she brave? She was tired mostly.

[Michael Malice]

But she went to Carvana.com and found a great car at a great price.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No secret treasure map required. Did you have to find a dragon? Nope.

[Michael Malice]

She bought it 100% online from her bed, actually. Was it scary? Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, good story. Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply right now at the Home Depot Shops Spring Black Friday savings and get up to 40% off, plus up to $500 off select appliances from top brands like Samsung. Get a fridge with zero clearance hinges so the doors open fully, even in tighter spaces in your kitchen and laundry. That saves you time. Like an all in one washer dryer that can run a full load in just 68 minutes. Shop spring Black Friday savings, plus get free delivery on appliance purchases of $998

[Michael Malice]

or more at the Home Depot offer,

[Tom Bilyeu]

valid April 9 through April 29. US only C store online for details. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to another Tom Bilyeu show live. We have a very special guest today, boys and girls. We are joined by the troll king, Michael Malice. He is in the house. He's here because he has a very special graphic novel that he's put together. He's told me a lot about. I've seen pages from it. I am very excited that this man has joined the ranks of people writing in that art form, which you guys know I'm obsessed with. I bring up very frequently my own, so I couldn't be more excited to have you, man. Thank you for joining us today.

[Michael Malice]

I could be more excited if it was later in the day.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes, yes, you've made that clear. Mr. Malice, this is early.

[Michael Malice]

This is the first time, I think, in 20 years that I've been awake this early. I'm not kidding at all. I happen to be coherent. So people say I can do podcasts in my sleep. Let's find out if that's true.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We shall see, boys and girls. All right, we're also gonna drag him into all of our conversations around Iran and all the stuff that's happening in the world and. And starting with a ceasefire, which is hanging on by a thread. After Israel bombed Lebanon, Trump posts an unhinged rant aimed at former supporters such as Alex Jones, Megyn Kelly and Candace Owens. Someone hacked a Chinese database and stole 10 petabytes of largely classified information. We'll see what they do with that. It is for sale on the Dark Web right now. So if we have any bidders, make sure you head over and take a look. A disgruntled employee burned a massive distribution center down because his employer wouldn't pay him more money. And Ro Khanna, friend of the Pod, has surpassed Nancy Pelosi as the most effective trader in Congress. However did he do it? We're going to talk about all of that and more. Michael, I really am excited to have you. For longtime viewers of my show, they will know that we have done done things before. Been on your show, you've been on mine. You've done standup comedy, which may be something that my audience doesn't know about.

[Michael Malice]

You were the first one to see my set.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I did. And to say that it was comedy as terrorism, I thought was a very active description.

[Michael Malice]

That's my love language. Well said, Terror. I'm not even kidding.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So that's who we've invited on the show today. Now, by way of quick tease, give them a little bit on the book, which has a very unusual setup.

[Michael Malice]

On wanderbook.com is the URL. We're already at the stretch goal. So I'm very excited about that. This is a book I started writing in 2000 when I was friends with Harvey Pekar. No, I became friends with Harvey Pekar of American Splendor fame because of this project. It's about a band from the 80s. It's a real life Spinal Tap. And what Harvey and graphic novels do that other projects really can't is take fun stories that are stranger than fiction and put them into the reader's hands. And I think there's such a long history of that alternative graphic novel scene. Peter Bag, Black Hole and people like that. It's just I'm really excited to be able to walk in the footsteps of these giants.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's exciting. So for those of you, if you only know Michael as an online personality, he's been writing books for a very long time. Extraordinary books, I might add. And so to see you now turn that on to the graphic novel scene is extraordinary. I am a massive collector of graphic novels because as an art form, I think it's really extraordinary. And so, yeah, very interested in this. We'll talk more about it later. I'm excited for you guys to take a look at it. We are going to help no matter what. So, Michael, stretch goal is 15k. He's already almost there. 142 or something like that. As of when we went live. I'll get us that far easily. But would love anybody that wants to support the book. We'll have the link in chat. Please do. It's a pre sale. So, uh, let's make sure that this book comes into.

[Michael Malice]

And the good thing about the pre sales, a lot of times with Kickstarter, they do a Kickstarter and then the book comes out in a year, it's done. So people are going to have in their hands in August. So that's awesome.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So this isn't money that you're raising to make the book? The book is already finished. We're just getting it out into the world. Yeah. We'll talk more about Ripa's strategy, which is pretty interesting as we go. All right, boys and girls, let's jump

[Ryan]

into the news from unusual Wales. Iran was on the verge of responding to the ceasefire violation, but Pakistan intervened. Trump tweeted out that he got the ceasefire done. Hours later, there were attacks all through the Middle East. It seems like the ceasefire is hanging on by a thread.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Catch us up by a thread, man. So I don't think that this is long for the world, but depending on who you believe, the ceasefire was either technically violated pretty much immediately after going into effect, as Iran was still bombing Israel and some of the other GCC countries, and then Israel is still, as of right now, bombing Lebanon. So just hours after the ceasefire was declared, the UAE said that its air defenses were actively engaging incoming Iranian ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and drones. Bahrain also reported attacks that injured two people. Qatar intercepted seven ballistic missiles and drones. This is all during the ceasefire. And Saudi Arabia had to issue nationwide civil defense warnings. Iran claimed that post the ceasefire, the GCC strikes were just retaliation for a hit on Iranian oil facilities on Levon island, which they attributed to an enemy attack, essentially saying the ceasefire was already being violated by the other guys. It's always the other guys. The IRGC simultaneously put out a statement saying that their finger was on the trigger. That's a direct quote. And they had no trust in US promises.

[Michael Malice]

This is.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This is a great setup to a ceasefire that we can all get behind. Now the US for its part, is making similar statements and clearly Israel still hasn't taken their finger off of the trigger at all. Oh, and by the way, the Strait of Hormuz still hasn't opened, despite that being a condition of the ceasefire. Only five vessels have crossed the strait on Wednesday, seven on Thursday, and as of right now, more than 600 vessels remain stranded in the Gulf. And Trump said that he's only going to do a ceasefire if the strait is completely open. So that's what we're going into the negotiations with now. The United States has more than 50,000 troops deployed across the Middle east, roughly 10,000 above the pre conflict baseline. And that number is climbing. CENTCOM is overseeing the largest American force posture in the region in years. And new assets keep arriving every day. Marines from San Diego are being transferred directly into the theater. The 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit, that's over 2,000 Marines and sailors departed aboard the USS Boxer amphibious ready Group in mid March. We have the 82nd Airborne also on their way. And the schedule seemed to be accelerating with people arriving there day after day. So this is not exactly what I would call ceasefire posture. Many are saying that what's really going on is that Trump is using the ceasefire to build up more troops and prepare for a continued assault. Seems pretty likely, or at least that he wants his options open to that. So I would not expect this ceasefire to last very long. Michael Malice, what do you think this is last or are we going to

[Michael Malice]

break it before we get interesting that you and I independently came to the same conclusion? Because I think even though we're very different people, you're a very clear headed person. I'm not necessarily, but I remember on Monday everyone was filming at the mouth. Not everyone, lots of people. Trump has lost his mind. You have the 25th amendment, him, he's going to nuke Tehran. And it's just like I remember the first term, he was going to nuke North Korea. And North Korea is like Kim Jong Un. You're going to face fire and fury like the world's never seen. Now it's going to be, he said to Iran, death, fire and fury, which is obviously much worse. It's clearly a negotiating tactic he's used over and over. I don't understand at this point how people are falling for it or thinking he's crazy. And we saw it because as you said, the straight of Hormuz was not opened. And we were told Tuesday night, I think it was 8pm Eastern, if the strait of Hormuz is not opened, that he's gonna blow up every bridge in Iran, he's gonna blow up all their power plants and a civilization will be wiped off the face of the earth. Over. I'm paraphrasing his exact quote.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's pretty close.

[Michael Malice]

The strait's not open and crickets. So I think it is very plausible what you're saying. He's prepping for a ground invasion, but this threat of like, we're gonna bomb them back to the Stone Age where they belong. That was the quote. I remember. They're not. So people often say that Trump should be taken seriously, but not literally. And his opponents take him literally, but not seriously. How are you taking him literally when it's been clearly shown that this was a bluff?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, I. So, Paul.

[Michael Malice]

Thank God, by the way.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah, right. That's the thing. And hearing people, the thing that drives me crazy about the taco condemnations is that they, they should be praising him for that. That's right. This is somebody that's saying, listen, I'm intellectually flexible. And so, yes, I said I was going to do all this stuff, but P.S. by the way, you all hated when I said that I was going to do it, so now I'm not doing it. What's your response? You're mocking me for it. It's like kids. So you're literally trying to incentivize them to go full psychopath.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't understand.

[Michael Malice]

You do understand, because I think the Internet is there to gin up people's agitation. And no matter what you do, if you don't like people don't run a true false filter. They run an us them filter. And if trust Trump is a them, no matter what he does, he can't do anything. Right, Right. And if you're a MAGA person, a full blown MAGA person, no matter what Trump does, he can't do anything wrong.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

And you see this a lot of time on, and it's discouraging and disheartening, but it's kind of par for the course at this point.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Speaking of discouraging and disheartening, so I have a default algorithm running in my brain that. So first of all, my base assumption is this is a deterministic universe. We are automata. We, we do not have the ability to change. And therefore the reason that history repeats is that we just respond in pretty knowable ways en masse. Okay. And that the only thing that history has shown can turn the course on something like this once it ratchets up to. And the thing that's ratcheting up is the psychological contagion that people get into. And the only thing that ends up reversing course is pain and suffering. And so that we get to this point as an automata, that's like, yeah, I don't like this anymore. And so now I'm willing to go in another direction. Do you hold out more hope that there is something else that will, like Trump, will negotiate this well and we'll get on the other side and things will calm down. Or how do you see a reunification of some sort of sensible, enjoyable, productive world order? We're hitting pause for a moment, but there's plenty more ahead, so don't go anywhere. Let's talk about the thing your business just can't survive without I go live three days a week at 7am and every single morning you guys show up, you're there, ready. And if my connection drops in the middle of that live stream, the moment's gone forever. You do not get a second chance with live content. When you're a digital media company, your Internet isn't a utility. It's your entire operation. Every live stream, every interview, every piece of content flows through that connection. One drop and I lose you, I lose the momentum and I lose the trust that I've spent years building with this community. And I know a lot of you are in the same position. Your business depends on staying connected. That's why I trust AT&T business. They're built for business owners who cannot afford downtime, reliable connectivity, simple setup, and the kind of dependability that helps you stop worrying about your infrastructure and start focusing on your people. Impact Theory is powered by AT&T Business Built to Work. Get AT&T [e-mail] the people who win. They're not smarter. They just absorb more ideas faster. They There are thousands of books right now on business, psychology, leadership books that have already changed how the best operators think. And every one you haven't read is a gap between you and the people who have. This is a bandwidth problem, not a discipline problem. And that's exactly what Blinkist was built to solve. It takes the world's best nonfiction books and distills them into 15 minute summaries you can read or listen to. It's got over 9,000 titles. We're talking atomic habits, Thinking fast and slow. The hard thing about hard things? Books you know you should have read by now. Done in the time it takes to drink your coffee. And because it's built for mobile, your commute becomes a classroom. Blinkist also sends you personalized recommendations so you actually build a daily learning practice instead of just planning to do one. Start your free trial at blinkist.com/ that's B L I N K I S T.com impact start learning aggressively today. It will change your life. Let's talk about what is going on in your closet. This time of year. Most people realize half of what they own isn't even worth keeping things that look fine in the store, but they don't hold up. Pieces you keep but never reach for. I know that one all too well. Spring is when you see it all clearly. You don't need more, you need better. That's where Quint comes in. I picked up one of their cashmere sweaters and the quality genuinely shocked me. It's incredible. It's incredibly soft, well made. You can feel the difference immediately. That's 100% Mongolian cashmere for you. And that is the same material luxury Brands Charge a Fortune 4 Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.comimpactpod for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada as well. Go to quincy.comimpactpod for free shipping AND 365 day returns. Quince.comimpactpod thanks for sticking around. Let's get right back into the action.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I think there's that quote about compromise is something everyone can live with but nobody likes. I think that's something that's going to happen in Ukraine and Russia as well. No one's going to be happy with how that ends. Or maybe Putin will be happy, maybe Zelensky, but I don't think they really will. The thing a lot of people in the Middle east, it's not just Israel, hate Iran. I've been to Bodrum, Turkey, which is like a resort town. They are not fans of this whole kind of like hijab kind of culture. They're very westernized and there's other pockets. Dubai's obviously trying to become and successfully has become a city of the world. So this is a issue for them. At the same time, if I'm Iran, this, it's, it's, there's something so frustrating and I'm sure you feel the same way that any kind of empathy, which is meaning seeing things from other people's point of view is regarded somehow wrong in this country. It's like if you say, let's look at things from the Iranian point of view, it's like, oh, you want Iran to win? It's like, no, but these are people who have values and they have weapons and they will act to further values using their weapons insofar as necessary for them. If another country just dropped a bomb on the White House, we're not going to be like, you know what, just kind of cut us a check for reparations and we're going to be square. At the same time, if you are Iran and you genuinely believe, as I think they no Longer do that. There's a lunatic in the White House and he's about to nuke us. Then very quickly could be like, okay, hey, buddy, let's take a deep breath. How can we work together here? He cut his. He got elected in 2016 pretending to be this big deal maker. And in many cases, that's true. The Abraham Accords being one prime example. But you really put them into a corner, because how are you going to maintain your hold on power as the Iranian government if your people see you weak and there's a huge movement in your country that regards your rule as illegitimate? The second you show that weakness, your neck is on the line. So they really have a lot of. And the straight of Hormuz. They've got the rest of the world. If I can use a bad expression by the short hairs, it's like, I don't blame them for being like, yeah, we're exposing you, Trump, as a fraud.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. The. The fact that this is existential on both sides is something that I don't think people are putting into their calculation nearly enough for Trump. If he. If he loses the midterms, he will get impeached. They will hound him even after he's out of office. If Republicans aren't in control, I think that they will try to imprison him. And I think he's certainly running that algorithm. And then obviously, Trump is actively trying to get regime change, whether he says it's his goal or not. When you kill that many people, clearly you're after something. So for them, it's existential also for the reason that you said that their own people will come in and turn them over. Now, one of the things I can't build an accurate mental model for is what percentage of Iranians want the theocracy and what percentage want to go back to, like, sort of pre 1979 status? Do you have a sense, like, are you able to get a read on?

[Michael Malice]

I think you and I and everyone else can, because the ones who want that are here, like, they're the ones who fled Iran, 1979. I mean, people in cities know Persian communities. They're the Persian diaspora. So especially the ones who are the powerful ones, the leaders they had to flee when the Shah fell. First of all, by the way, this is just an important thing about 979, because the Shah was like, oh, he's terribly terr. Terrible. There's always this idea that whenever someone's a terrible leader, you got to get them out. And it's like, guys, it can always get worse. So the people who are like, the Shah is the devil, we got to get rid of the shah. F. The Shah. You got rid of the Shah and look what happened afterwards. So the idea that the alternative to a terrible leader is going to be a better leader is not true. It could be the choices are bad and worse. I don't think even, no matter what percentage of people in Iran want regime change or want this theocracy to go away, I don't think they have clout. I don't think they really. It's not a democracy in the sense of the west with, you know, human rights being respected. So how many thousands were just literally killed by this regimen?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Depends on who you believe. Somewhere between 3,000 and like 40,000.

[Michael Malice]

At least. At least the 9. 11. Right. At least 3,000 people. So. And the Kurds, you know, were encouraged to rise up with like, no, no, hey, we saw this song before. We know what's going to happen. You're going to encourage us to rise up, then you're going to turn your backs on us. They're all going to get slaughtered. So they were smart enough not to do anything about it. So I think this regime has a hold on power that's pretty strong. And I think it's going to be very hard to put someone in there who's going to be like, all right, I'm going to shake hands with the US And Israel after what they just did. I don't, I don't see how that happens. But the other thing is, no matter what happens, I think Trump's going to call it a win. He's good, you know, and he could say with a straight face, oh, you know, we bombed near nuclear facilities back to the Stone Age, as he did previously. This is the second time we're bombing their nuclear facilities. So I don't know, I think the midterms were going to be a wash anyway for the Republicans, just simply because of the, of, of the economy.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah. As of right now, as I've said many times, they're on a one way collision course with losing the midterms because people just aren't going to feel it in their pocket. The new economic data is coming out and last month they were expecting 2%, 2.2% growth. I think they got 0.5. So it's rough, man. It is rough. So, though I use this analogy before, I'll be interested to see what you think about it. So there's a jellyfish that can live forever. It essentially becomes like it disintegrates down into these pluripotent cells that then rebuild. And so barring trauma, it will just keep doing that forever. But when you're in that undifferentiated pluripotent state, you're just a blob. That's what the world order feels like to me right now. It's this insanely dangerous thing where all these alliances that used to create some sort of skeletal structure to the world and how things work, it's just all like becoming blobby.

[Michael Malice]

My autism is being triggered because that jellyfish is not dangerous and doesn't have a skeleton.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Not dangerous? I didn't say it was dangerous.

[Michael Malice]

Well, you said the world order is dangerous. So if you're going to call it

[Tom Bilyeu]

the, the fact that it has disintegrated and that you don't have stable alliances puts you at risk.

[Michael Malice]

I'm just saying you're not. It doesn't port to the jellyfish because that jellyfish is not dangerous and jellyfish doesn't have a skeleton. So that's why my autism is being triggered here. Okay, so if you're going to use the metaphor, use this, use the accurate zoological metaphor. Point being we are in dangerous territory because I can go country by country in Europe and they all have are collapsing from a binary. Or you would have, you would have in different countries, like let's suppose Sweden, you'd have the two main parties, center left, center right party, and each of those would have ancillary parties. Right. But in country after country, UK is a prime example since World War II or even before that you'd have the Tories and Labor and then the third party was the Liberals and later became the Lib Dems. Now in the old British polls, the reform for a just party is clearly in first and you have a second tier of five different parties. So the electorates being split six ways as opposed to too. And how do you form coalitions like this? It's going to be something that's very, very tricky. We saw this in Iceland. They had like I think 10 people, 10 parties in parliament. The Czech Republic now has reconsolidated to four. They don't have any left wing parties anymore except for the pirates. So with the rise of social media, it's a lot harder in some ways for the two establishment parties of countries to corral their people. Because if you look at just Coca Cola, you can go to the store right now and get eight kinds of Coke or more than eight kinds caffeine, Diet cherry, cherry diet, cherrycat, whatever so it's harder and harder to tell people. You have to pick Republican or Democrat, and people get disaffected with the system. And while I do see that's an opportunity, when people get disaffected with systems, it's also, there's a trade off, which is like, if enough people, like, screw this, lots of bad things often can end up happening.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, no doubt about that. What do you think is going to be the outcome of the negotiations? We've got Steve Witkoff, Jared Kushner replaced with. I don't know, the full delegation is, but led by J.D. vance.

[Michael Malice]

How do you. Your negotiator, your businessman. How do you sit down? First of all, it's really funny because Trump, not to say funny, but really disturbing that Trump was bragging about, like, over killing all their leaders. Well, then who. Who's in a position to negotiate with you? Right? Like, is that kind of important to have someone, some guy that can sit down? So Iran, to my understand, standing, has several power centers. You have the military, you have the theocracy, and then you have the secular ish kind of government. I don't know who they're negotiating with. Each of those three is going to have their own agenda. All three are going to do what they can to maintain their hold on power, and you can't blame them. So I don't see what they're being offered when they're sitting pretty and they're humiliating their opponents on the world stage. The guy's body isn't even cold yet. So I. There's an enormous incentive for Iran to keep this going. Do you think it's going to be going on through November?

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, I think Trump will back out, but I think that it will. I think as of right now, I don't see any indication that we won't be in a worse position than if we hadn't gone in.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, that seems plausible to me as well.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So I think that they'll have control of the strait. I think they'll open it back up because they have to from their own economic standpoint, but they'll start charging a toll. They will assert we control this.

[Michael Malice]

That's right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And the US has basically abdicated their willingness to be the global police. So sea lanes basically are no longer open and free. I don't think anybody else has the ability to stop them from doing that. And so then it becomes a bigger question, okay, then what happens to the Red Sea? Do we get the Houthis, which are a proxy of Iran? Do they take that over as well, and start charging tolls there. And then of course, the GCC countries will start doing things over land. But all of that is going to make this all that much more expensive, that much more high risk. And this gets into where we start losing allies who right now can tolerate what Trump did. But when you're someone like Japan, it gets real hard to root for the US if your entire populace is like, hold on a second, all of our energy costs, which is now just blanket inflation is how it will read is because that asshole went in and then it, he bounced when he got what he needed. Theoretically.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Because so that not just Japan, but many people will have a reaction like that. Because here's the really brutal part that I'm not sure how many people are paying attention to. If we quote, unquote, lose and Trump backs out, that will be really good for us because America makes so much energy that there will be places in the world now that'll be like, okay, we're just going to do energy from the US So the US now has a much stronger energy position. Our oil companies are making a ton of money hand over fist. And so Japan is like, wait a second, your guys GDP is growing because of what you did. I'm in dire straits over here because of what you did. And Europe will be in a similar situation where, you know, they're either going to have to choose, do we buy from the U.S. do we buy from the completely embattled Middle East.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Or do we go to Russia? If we buy from Russia, we hurt ourselves because of the war in Ukraine. So now we've got a buy from America that put us in this position in the first place. So it's like America is going to come out in a pretty good economic position Anyway.

[Ryan]

Let me jump in really quick because there's some speculation about that because right now we have the Spanish pm, we got the Australian pm, and we got the United Kingdom PM all condemning this attack. Some people are even going as far as condemning Israel and his attacks with Lebanon and just saying there's a whole problem in the Middle east in general. So it's very easy for us to be to say, we'll go to the North America, everybody will buy oil from us. Where Iran was giving grants to Spain to get their charters through, there was speculation that the EU and 39 other countries sat down to actually figure out how to open up the strait. So is there a possibility, one, that Iran could just cut direct deals and cut us out, and then two, are there any lasting ramifications to us alienating our allies, both Israel and us versus the world. Is that a world order or a unity we can sustain?

[Michael Malice]

Well, I know Specifically Spain and UK both have center left Social Democrat PMs and they're both under huge fire because right now in Spain, the, the third party, I forget what it's called, they're the Nationalist Party, they're surging really hard in the polls. And in, in UK specifically, obviously Farage's reform is way ahead. And Starmer is facing in, in May local elections, which look like the regular party might come in fourth or even fifth, which would be complete disastrous. So it looks like his time at number 10 is numbered. So I think what they're trying clowned on him. Yeah, I think what they're trying to do is at least rally their base, which is going to be the left wing half of their respective countries. But to your point, I think it's very clear that, that a lot of these people want to be like, this wasn't on us. Trump's crazy, Let us get our oil through. And to your point, Iran saying we control the state of Hormuz, like they de facto do so at a certain point just becomes de jure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah, it's really going to come down, Drew, to nail that point home, it's going to come down to how stably and at what cost they can get the oil out of the Middle East. Because if you're getting like a real fight between Iran and say the uae. Because part of what I think people are missing is that the GCC countries are not in love with Iran. So this is not like some, oh, the Middle east is looking at America going, what the. It's the Middle east. Already have their own beef. They're in Trump's ear. Like in the beginning they were trying to be coy about it and they were saying, like, oh, you shouldn't do this. These are Islamic countries, leave us alone. But behind the scenes being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, go fuck these kids up. And then they thought by keeping their nose clean that Iran would keep it all to Israel, to American bases, and they didn't. And they started like just going ham, like bombing everybody in the region. And so that's going to be a question of us leaves. Do they just go, we don't want to fight? And so they're doing things over land, they're coming up with deals or is there now enough resentment or enough economic damage? They're forced to fight. And so now that region becomes like these constant pockets of violence that raises insurance Costs, tolls go up because of Iran. And now it's like, shit is just unsettled enough there that people are looking for alternatives. And your alternatives are literally Venezuela, which is US Controlled the US Directly or Russia, if you're Europe, you're definitely not going to Russia. So if the things in the Middle east calm down, US doesn't have as

[Ryan]

much leverage and they're already holding our debt. So I mean, we get a discount.

[Michael Malice]

I don't know that you're saying that we definitely, they definitely go into rush. First of all, is, Wasn't it. Please clarify me for me, you think

[Tom Bilyeu]

they might go to Russia.

[Michael Malice]

Hold on. But wasn't it explicit that the UAE and Saudi were telling Trump that you guys should go through with this? Like, I thought they admitted it. Right. This isn't just speculation.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, yeah, well, they've said, I don't know that they said you should go through with this, but they have said we support. Yeah, yeah, ally. And we're doubling down on our engagement.

[Michael Malice]

So it wasn't, it was pretty clear that they were. Whose side they were on.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes. Once the first bombs, they could drop the pretense.

[Michael Malice]

Right? That's right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so now they're like, we're in.

[Michael Malice]

We're talking about incentives. Like, you know, we remember Hillary Clinton was with the Russia, the big reset button. So it's very, it's very possible that Europe sits down Zelensky and says, okay, we're going to cut our losses with Ukraine. You're going to make a deal with Putin. And they could be like, oh, look, Europe brought peace that Trump couldn't bring. Now we're all friends again. We're going to take oil from Russia. You can imagine them saying that pretty easily.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You're right. Isn't on my bingo card for right now, but it's certainly not outside of the realm of possibility. That would be very interesting. Have you seen Zelinsky as floating this idea? He didn't use the word new NATO, but I'll use it. It. So same idea that a group of countries minus the US Would get together and try to basically overpower Russia. And so it was like the new entrants were Turkey, somebody else, maybe just Ukraine. But it was an interesting coalition of Europe, Turkey, Ukraine, Norway in the UK Norway. Thank you. And yeah, I guess technically, I don't,

[Michael Malice]

I, I think I don't see almost any situation where Europe is going to give forces to any significant extent to Ukraine. Really? You think they would. How are you going to sell that to the British?

[Tom Bilyeu]

The Only way that would move forward is if, when the US. If the US were to pull out a NATO.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And these guys realize that they have to re. Militarize and then something happens in the war that pushes it beyond stalemate.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So if something. If Russia were able to start making progress. Because it'll stay a proxy war.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

As long as it can.

[Michael Malice]

Right, Exactly.

[Tom Bilyeu]

At some point, something has to cause this to go in a direction.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It could be oil and that we need oil. And then something like what you're saying plays out. It could be that Russia starts actually making inroads once the US is not engaged and not giving the kind of weapons that they need, so. Or God, if China, Russia, Iran, North Korea begin to solidify their allegiance and then China starts really helping Russia. Iran starts. If Iran is able to calm everything down with the US and then they have bandwidth to start helping out Russia, that could make that a breaking point. That starts pushing into Europe. Not something I think is likely. Just.

[Michael Malice]

No, it's coherent. That's a coherent possibility.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So we'll see.

[Michael Malice]

But I think it'd be very hard to sell war to the Europeans.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Agreed. Aggressively. Yeah. But energy has a way of making people make hard decisions and they've made such idiotic choices with their green policies that energy in Europe is ridiculous.

[Michael Malice]

So since the Labour Party in the UK is so unpopular now, it's the Green Party that is surging. And they're the ones who make your starmer look like Margaret Thatcher. So they're real, they're, they're real loons. They just had. They won their first by election, I believe, in May. Sorry, like in March. And they're the ones who are surging into the Green Party. Yes. Whoa. So they have this Progressive Islam alliance. That's their, their, their. That's their kind of backers.

[Tom Bilyeu]

More to be said about that. Taking a short break, but there's more impact theory after. Stay tuned. Let's talk about who's profiting from your personal information. Someone is making money from your data every single day. You just don't see the transaction. Data brokers collect your personal information and sell it for profit. Your address, your phone number, your email, your Social Security number. Yikes. It's bought and sold constantly without your knowledge or consent. Scammers buy it for identity theft, spammers buy it for targeted harassment, criminals buy it to find you. And the crazy part is it's completely legal. The solution is incogni. Incogni tracks down your data across hundreds of data broker sites and removes it automatically you authorize them. Once they handle everything else, they remove your data and keep it removed with repeated requests plus with custom removals. You send them any link where your data appears and their team will remove it. They can't harm you if they can't find you. Go to incogni.comimpact and use code impact for 60% off an annual plan. Try it risk free for 30 days. That's incogni.com impact and use code impact. Most people don't realize that three out of four U.S. homes have toxic chemicals in their tap water. Standard fridge filters aren't cutting it, and bottled water is also loaded with microplastics. Aqua Tru is a countertop water purifier with a patented four stage reverse osmosis system. It's been tested and certified to remove 84 different contaminants. This goes way beyond ordinary filters. No plumbing's required, no installation. Just pure water that actually supports your health instead of sabotaging it. Business Insider and Popular Science have both featured it. Good Housekeeping named it the best countertop water filter and 98% of customers say their water is cleaner, safer and healthier. Head to aquatru.com and use promo code IMPACT for 20% off. Aqua Tru even comes with a 30 day best tasting water guarantee. So head to aquatru.comand use promo code IMPACT to get yours today. Don't let tax refund worries hold you Back file now with TurboTax on Intuit credit Karma. They'll find every credit and deduction to help you get every refund dollar you deserve or your money back. Start filing today in the Credit Karma app. Thanks for staying tuned. Now let's get back to it.

[Ryan]

All right, speaking of factions, especially on the right, Trump went against everybody calling out Tucker Carlson, Megyn Kelly, Candace Owens, Alex Jones. Each of them came and had their own tweet responses. He called them a bunch of nut job troublemakers. Is this actually a problem or on true social people are definitely pushing back against it. So I'm not going to read the half a page. Yes, this is one of those.

[Michael Malice]

This is how boomers Tweet.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's like 500 words. This is literally like a deep dive script.

[Ryan]

I'm sorry to hear that. Or you know, whatever. I'm not reading on it. It's one of those situations.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm sorry. Or congratulations, I have.

[Michael Malice]

I'm happy for you. I'm sorry that happened.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, this is wild. There's probably a few bits and pieces that I do want people to hear because it's pretty crazy. He's saying that Candace, Owens, Maiden Kelly, Tucker Carlson all have one thing in common, low IQs. They're stupid people. They know it, their families know it and everyone else knows it. And it just literally goes on and on like that. They lost their jobs on tv. Nobody wants to hear from them. They're just dumb and they have no good ideas. Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty crazy.

[Ryan]

These so called pundits are losers and they always will be. Yeah, or bankrupt. Alex Jones, who just was one of the dumbest things and lost his entire fortune, as he should for his horrendous attack on the families of Sandy Hook shooting victims, ridiculously came. He was a hook and Alex Jones was Team Trump.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So what's interesting about this is there's such a civil war going on right now within the right. And so you keep hearing polls even from CNN that like Republicans are united in the mega wing. And then there's just these fringe characters that are outside of that. I don't pay enough attention to the actual different personalities within that. Do you have a read on whether this is fringe or whether the Republican Party is really starting to break apart?

[Michael Malice]

So I have Alex Jones tinfoil hat hanging my wall in my house, as you've seen. So. And I wrote a book about this whole space called the New Right, which came out in 2019, I believe. I think this isn't crazy because I think this is how Trump speaks to his strong base. So Trump likes to kind of send people to the wilderness and basically say this person's outgroup. Now I remember in his first term he did with Steve Bannon saying, oh, sloppy Steve was on his knees begging for his job back and blah, blah, blah. So he's very good at telling his loyal, rabid fans who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. I don't think what, what this is fringe in the sense that you don't have to be a Megyn Kelly or Alex Jones fan to be, to be a Republican or right of center be like, what the heck are we doing with Iran? And I remember I was on Tim cast and we watched Trump give that speech and he was just like, everything's great. Iran's destroyed. Like, or if you don't do what we want, we're going to kill you more. It's like, but you just said they were destroyed. And Tim had to play Marco Rubio's clip, which was far more coherent, which is not surprising retrospect, where he laid out the bullet points of the objectives of the US with this conflict. I mean, I think this is par for the course with Trump. But the premise of my book, which has come to fruition, is these disparate factions which combined to create the Trump coalition in 2016 and even stronger in 2024, the only thing they had in common was a hatred of progressivism. And if you take away progressivism, a cultural force, which it is on the back wagon in terms of dc, not in terms of a culture, all of a sudden, these people realize they don't really have that much in common. This being US Interventionism abroad being a prime example. So it's not at all surprising, especially Alex Jones, of all people, to be like, this war in Iran is crazy. This is the New World Order coming to fruition. Not one more penny of American tribute should be spent on war in the Middle East. So, yeah, I'm not surprised that Alex and these others took this position.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And if you had, like, rough swag, is this like a 50, 50 split in terms of voting base or.

[Michael Malice]

I get asked this question all the time, and this is a question I ask myself all the time. Because if you go on Twitter, you're going to have a certain perspective, and then you go in the supermarket, it's going to be completely different. And the issue, this has been an issue even for Nixon. When Nixon is running, you know, for president, 60 and then 60 and 72 is you have to get through the primary and you're. You're talking to the base. And then after you get through the base, you can tack to the general, to the center for the general. That's getting harder and harder to do because if I'm a candidate and I'm tweeting something in October, having gotten through the primary, my opponent can throw things in my face or my fans, former fans, could be like, you're selling us out. I had this tweet about Lucy and the football with Peanuts JD Vance being an anti war Republicans, because I think people are sick and tired of politicians claiming I'm anti war. And they go, and Trump, you know, Woodrow Wilson, 1916, with his campaign slogan was, he has kept us out of war. Months later, we're in World War I. Trump has been denouncing Action Iran for a long time. At the same time, he's been denouncing the Iranian regime for decades. You know, in his head, I think to some extent, this is finishing what should have been finished a long time ago when they took American hostages. So I think it's gonna. I do not envy J.D. vance because he's trying to walk like two tight rows simultaneously and I don't think he's doing a good job of it. But he's only one person.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I. The same way that I have a hard time getting a read on what percentage of the populace was willing to rise up and get shot in Iran versus who wants the theocratic regime. I have a similar sense of like, I. E. Or inability to gain a real sense of okay, in real life what percentage of this base is for and against Trump. But it, the amount of chaos and inability to track what the narrative is, I think is going to make it impossible for Trump to keep the coalition together. There's just so much noise, the volume and velocity of information that social media allows for. When you start fragmenting your amplifiers, like if you've got, I mean, what's he got, 10 to 20 people that he can reliably count on, they have a big audience and they'll say the thing. And now a substantive portion of them are not saying the thing anymore. Now the narrative begins to fracture and people don't know what words to say.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I've often said that part of what will always limit my growth on social media is that I have no interest in giving people the words to say. So I'm trying to map cause and effect. And so if somebody wants to hear me talk, that's what they're going to hear. I'm trying to figure out a case somewhere in this because I believe, and I think maybe we have a bit of a collision, but I believe that we live in a deterministic universe. We're automata. We respond in like these knowable ways that it's like, oh, you can map this stuff out. They're very complex systems, to be sure. So nobody sees the future clearly, but you can really get a lot of useful information if you go, there's cause and effect here.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so, but that doesn't give people bumper stickers. The people that have been talking up to this point were giving everybody the bumper stickers. So when their left leaning friend was talking, then they could come in with their right leaning gaining talking points and they felt like, ah, cool. It's like two Superville or two superheroes shooting, you know, their red flame and the blue flame and they just sort of stop in the middle. But now that's all going away. And so I don't know if Trump, given the state of the economy, given like how unpredictable the war is and now you're losing the People that were saying the thing for you, it's going to be pretty tough to come back.

[Michael Malice]

I just remember very vividly in 2020 when they ran the table on him all year on everything, right? The COVID times, like he just kept folding, folding, folding, folding. At the same time, I think there's a huge crack in the system in the Republican Party because I don't think the donors like JD Vance as much as the base likes JD Vance. They clearly like Rubio much more. He's much more of a reliable Republican. I think the other thing people need to appreciate when people who are Trump haters from the Republican Party think he hasn't done more. I'm like, guys, you don't have the House, right? You're not in a position. There's like a one seat majority that doesn't function as a majority. You're not going to get the magenda through the House. And you have to appreciate that of those Republican senators, there are plenty who would be more than happy if it sued their interests to remove them from office if there was an impeachment bill that crossed their desk. Collins in two seconds, Murkowski in two seconds. And that's just. Rand Paul would not be reliable. That's three already. So you're ready at 53. You need what, 67. I don't think they were. They're worried about their reelection. They're worried about their bottom line. This guy has what, a little over, like two, two years left in office. You know, they're at a certain point you're gonna cut, you're gonna fish or cut bait.

[Ryan]

Do you think that J.D. vance is the future of the Republican party? I'm thinking 20, 28. Is it him? Is it Rubio? Is it some, you know, Massey or Rand Paul or somebody like that? Who do you think has that cultural energy now that all these podcasters are kind of abandoning Trump?

[Michael Malice]

I don't. I think J.D. vance is, thinks he's smarter than Trump in all the ways that don't matter. I think he and Elon did the same bet with Trump. They thought, I'm going to use this dolt from their perspective and I'm going to use him to further my agenda. But Trump is really smart in ways that JD Isn't, which is he understands politics until five minutes ago, and he understands how to work a crowd. And he's got that kind of once in a generation political talent. I think JD the swing voter in America is Karen, and I think Karen hates JD Vance because he comes off as smarmy. And that Internet snark, which I'm certainly a fan of and proponent of, doesn't really work. When you're young and when you don't have, you know, a resume behind you, everyone likes the winner. When you're a loser, all of a sudden everyone's more than happy to throw you overboard. And how is JD going to run? Because this Trump is hypersensitive to people who are he perceives as disloyal. So the second JD starts backpedaling on some things that Trump's done, it's going to be really ugly for him.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So far, JD has shown that if the leaks can be believed, that behind the scenes he'll tell Trump, I think this is a bad idea, sure, but that he'll signal, I'm going to back you on this. And then he does a pretty loyal job.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

In terms of directly answering who's the future of the party. Right now, Rubio is the only other real contender. Now, we're a long way away, so you never know what's actually going to happen, but Rubio is the only other real contender. For someone with my personality anyway, I'm far more interested in Rubio. I haven't seen anybody on the Democrat side that I would even consider. But the problem is that Rubio himself clearly sees some path where if I back JD Vance, that I'm going to get my shot. And so he keeps saying that JD is the next one that's going to be running. I'm going to support him with everything I have. Those two talk about being best friends in the administration. And so listen, this is me with a writer's hat on, but me click clacking on a keyboard, I would say it looks something like this. You've got Peter Thiel as a stand in for whatever cabal of people who've realized it's time to go behind the scenes. That includes Elon Musk. And it's like, okay, who are we going to get into the White House? JD's going to be our guy. We love us some Rubio, but Rubio, you need to wait your turn. We've got a plan. JD's way more in their pocket than I would expect Rubio to be. Rubio's a little more true blue politician, knows how to play the game, but really has, like, an agenda. And so he's going to be a bit more wild Cardi, which is what I love about him. It really feels like he's trying to tell you what he thinks is actually real. So if Rubio has bought into that. And it seems like he has, like, I'm not going to try to beat these guys. He's too shrewd for that. But he gets like, okay, we could have a real legendary run if Trump doesn't fuck all this up. So it's a big issue right now. It seems impossible, but that's the bet that they made.

[Michael Malice]

Here's the other thing. If it's April 2014, right. And I sat down here and I said, tumble you, the future of the Republican Party is Donald Trump, you would try not to laugh at my face. And I say, will you bet me half a billion dollars? And you feel like easy money. And that's what ended up happening. So we don't even know if JD Is going to run. Yeah, I think this stuff with his wife, Usha is not things that she's particularly a fan of. We don't even know if Newsom is going to run. My theory, and I talked to Mark Halpern about this, and he said it's history as well, is if JD Starts to falter, some other Republican comes in the race not even intending to win. But it's a great way to build your brand identity, book deals, speaking gigs, donors are funding your run. You don't have to do anything. And if there's a crack in the fissure, then a Rubio or somebody else can step in and be like, all right, you know, I'm trying to save the party. So I think the Rubio is trying to. Rubio, sorry, Vance. Is giving Hillary 2008 energy where it's like, look, I'm the guy. It's already. Let's work where the general. It's resolved. And at certain point someone's gonna say like, you know what? Maybe you're not the guy. So he's not been nationally tested. Obviously, he's been Trump's vp, but he hasn't run on his own before like Rubio has, so. So I think there's a lot of donors who'd be more than happy to open their wallets and fund somebody they don't like. Military people. If I'm someone part of the war machine, and I'm not confident in JD Vance being a war president, I'm going to pour that money to Rubio or Rubio of surrogate. Why wouldn't I? Because I'm going to lose billions if we have a peace president.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's interesting.

[Michael Malice]

That's dark, but that's how it works.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah. No, for sure.

[Ryan]

I think it's a continuation of the war Machine, though, because right now, J.D. vance, isn't Iran negotiating? Is this just him trying to clean up after Trump, or is this, to your point, kind of ushering his Cinderella moment of, look, I can handle the big thing. This is me getting out there. This is me doing something and getting under, out of Trump's shadow.

[Michael Malice]

If I'm Raytheon, I'm not confident In a President J.D. vance, in furthering my agenda.

[Ryan]

Are you confident in President Marco Rubio?

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Interesting. That's almost bad for me. But the thing about JD at least if the news can be believed, is that Iran asked for him. So I don't know what that tells us about Witkoff and Kirschner. I don't know if, you know, there's something to read there where those guys have too much of a sort of privateer agenda. I don't know. But I thought it was interesting that they were asking for him. So you either ask for him because you think he's more reasonable because you think he's weaker, or you just don't know who else to reach for. And the other two guys, you're just like, absolutely not. Like, we're not going to go back.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I think, I think asking for him because they can clearly tell he thought this was a mistake and he's the one who's going to try to get them to an exit ramp that everyone can kind of deal with.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, that seems very reasonable from the back channel stuff that leaks out about. Theoretically, again, I don't have any insider information, but that, that's certainly the word on the street that he told Trump, I think this is a mistake, we should not do it. But if you do it, I'll back you.

[Michael Malice]

But you saw that there were people. So there are two ways of looking at this. There were those photos that came out when the attack happened. And it's Vance, Tulsi and a couple other people basically at the kids table. Right. And the question is, okay, there were a few articles about how this is humiliating JD Vance. Some people were saying this 40 chess. This is Vance saying, look, I had clean hands, I wasn't involved with this. Some people also said, oh, you're not gonna have the president, vice president, same room when stuff like this is popping off. And I'm like, we saw that photo when Bin Laden was getting killed. And Hillary's Secretary of State, Hillary's there, Vice President Biden and Obama, they're all in the same room together. So I wasn't buying it, that photo op, right? And I think it was, it's there's clearly some faction in the White House that is doing what they can to undermine JD Vance and to marginalize him. I don't think. And Tulsi especially.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do you think that's a pushback on Peter Thiel and he's a stand in for me, for all those guys, or is it really just about jd?

[Michael Malice]

I think it's the war. People don't think JD is one of them and they're correct. So they're doing what they can to kind of pull the rug out from under him.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. Be careful of the.

[Michael Malice]

That was it the military industrial complex.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Military industrial complex, yeah. It's so wild. Like that kind of stuff is always deeply distressing. This idea that there are these forces behind the scenes that remain as invisible as possible that are able to pull people through, it's very, very fascinating, but

[Michael Malice]

I don't know if it's necessary so you could steal mad and say it's not distressing because it's a good thing to have continuity and stability. So this one of the reasons we have the Supreme Court, which is lifetime appointments. You're not going to have the law rewritten every few years. Right. So the argument, which is not something I necessarily hold to myself, is you want that kind of shadow government because no matter who happens to win a vote every four years, the country's still going to remain on some level stable. That's the argument for it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It and it's a very good argument. My problem is, and this is exactly how I feel about the economy, debt is phenomenal. It is truly a miracle. However, it grows toxic always and forever, every time without exception. And so you have this thing that gives you the world of abundance that we see, but then it also gives you the K shaped economy that ensures that ultimately there's a revolution and people are burning distribution centers down. So yes, you get the stability, but you also get people that have their own agenda and are saying to themselves some variant of you're going to be gone in four years and I'm still going to be here, so I'm going to drag my feet, ignore you, not do what you want and pull against you. And the more that things like Project Veritas reveal, like how much these people have political agendas that I did not vote for and they're able to pull so incredibly well in a direction and it's pretty traumatizing and I don't know why, but my audience absolutely does not respond positively when I talk about Israel and the Jews and which makes me want to talk about it more. It is the contrarian me. So here we go, boys. This is exactly. I think part of the issue with the Israel lobby is the more I started researching like so I don't buy for a second that certainly Trump and America in general, I don't believe that we're puppets to Israel and I don't believe that because the data is so obvious that we're not. We can walk through what that is. But like anyway that's my belief. But when I look oh, you got the call. I have. It's so funny. People will say just watch the chat. They are convinced. I get checked.

[Michael Malice]

Someone got the $7,000. So you would broke before.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, it's, it's hilarious to me that people think that. But what I do find very troubling is how can I say something? Sure.

[Michael Malice]

That's how bad you are. You didn't even have to get the call. You're doing it for free.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

You're even worse.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That that is where go. Yeah, nice with the rim shot.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So the point there is that the way that they put an evolutionary pressure on who gets elected is brilliant, sinister and has a huge impact on the kind of person that's able to get to power.

[Michael Malice]

That's right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so but nobody talks about that. Nobody puts their finger on the thing that's actually the real problem. So they're always talking about, you know, it's the money they're buying people off, yada yada. Blackmail. Nope. They have a way more sophisticated and sort of interesting from a sociological perspective. But it's that same deep state y thing. It's like, well, we're going to be here long after you leave. You guys are all transient. We've created this organization that's going to vet these people at the city council level long before they're thinking about state or national level politics. And so we're going to make sure that we kill in the cradle anybody that's not not pro Israel. And it's when you take that, if you're mortified by that, as you should be, then you should also be mortified in my opinion by the deep state. Because it's doing that same thing where it's like they're just like, oh cool, that's what you want us to do. Yeah, but we're not.

[Michael Malice]

Were both Obama's parents CIA operatives?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Were they?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. Look this up, double check it because I, I please double check it. Whenever I say hear a claim I always for me or anybody always double check what someone on your screen is Saying. And then you could see for yourself.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Very good advice. That's wild.

[Ryan]

The claim that both of Barack Obama's parents were CIA operatives is a conspiracy theory that lacks credible evidence according to investigations. Biographical research. Gemini.

[Michael Malice]

AI look up with the mom.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Let me tell you, Gemini is the one that I trust the least. Gemini, dude, have you had any run ins with Gemini?

[Michael Malice]

I've never used. I don't. It forces me. Can you look up the mom in CIA, whatever her name is? Nancy something. It pops up at the top. But I don't. I've had it say crazy things about me.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Dude. Gemini is unhinged. It is so. It has such an agenda. So Gemini is running. So YouTube has what they call ask Studio.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So you can work with it to come up with video ideas and stuff. It's really like if you're doing your sort of non political video, it's phenomenal. The second you start talking about sensitive topics, it just. It will stonewall you. It will chide you. Dude. It was wild. I was so enraged because it was like, tom, you shouldn't be focusing on this. Yes.

[Michael Malice]

No.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I quote, you were doing so well before. Why don't you just get back to joking? I am not joking. I wanted to explicitly. Yes, that is a quote, my man. I could not fucking believe it. I was like, bitch, you must be joking. Joking. I was like, there is no way this AI is telling me that I have. No. Yes, that is a quote. I could not believe it.

[Michael Malice]

Were you doing so good?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I really was. It was like going really well. And then I triggered them. It was wild. The first one I got it on was Epstein.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And it wouldn't even tell me why. Why it suddenly switched. So imagine I'm doing so good. We're getting this outline. It's incredible. Super excited about the video. And then I'm like, okay. And now I expressly. In this section, I want to address. And I listed like three things and one of them was Epstein. And all of a sudden it's like, I can't help you with that. That was the sum total of the response. I cannot help you with that. And I was like, you can't help me with what? I thought, like, it was glitching.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And it was like, I'm not able to help you with these sensitive topics. And I'm like, which one of those topics is it that triggered you? I'm. I can't help you with that. And I'm like, the is going on. I'm like, was it Epstein? I can't help you with that. I'm like, okay, so by process of elimination, since I asked about the other ones and you'll talk about it, this is an Epstein problem. It refused to ever acknowledge that its problem was Epstein. So I was just like, what the fuck is going on right now? So yeah, anyway, this is one of those where you can get me to really derail for an extended period of time on AI manipulating people.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, I use it to manipulate people. So my.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Why am I surprised?

[Michael Malice]

No, this is a great way to save people on social media. Social media is there to make you crazy. This is how to offload it. If I One of the big things people like to do on social media is pretend. I mean generous here. Pretend they don't understand what you're saying or misconstrue what you're saying in a Cathy Newman way. So all I'll say is, hey Grok, explain to such and such a person and they explain my point of view or the joke and leave the cretins to argue with Grok and just offload them from your plate and then you don't have to get into a back and forth. People lack empathy. We are trained since kindergarten to think everyone around us is fundamentally the same under the skin. That is a complete lie. Many people are not interested in looking for truth or looking for understanding. They're looking for an argument or they get off on being obstinate and they will drag you in and you will lose at their game because you cannot win. So rather than engage and argue with them, get Grok to do your work for it. You have to be a paying member and they'll argue with Grok or they'll just go away. But you're not going to be pulling your hair out.

[Ryan]

We have to talk about what Melania Trump made her impromptu speech that nobody asked for. Fox News said. They didn't even get any heads up. Nobody knew what she was talking about. She said her piece and walked away. Some of the memorable quotes now it's time for Congress to act. Epstein was not alone. Several prominent male executives resigned from their powerful positions after this matter because became widely politicized. Of course, this doesn't amount to guilt, but we still must work openly and transparently to uncover the truth. I call on Congress to provide the women who have been victimized by Epstein with a public hearing specifically centered around the survivors. A lot of people are calling this the Streisand effect because it gave heat to the. It gave the. What's that word? It gave attention to daily Beast and their reporting that had Jeffrey Epstein bragging about his close relationship with Trump and the First Lady. Apparently we're doing bad in Iran because we're bringing the Epstein files back. So we need to cover up from something else, man.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You know that things are not going the way that you expected when the thing you did to quiet people on the epime files. You need to bring the epine files back to quiet people on that. Pretty hilarious. Yeah. This is weird. This came out of nowhere for me. So the way that she talked. Did you see the video?

[Michael Malice]

No.

[Tom Bilyeu]

The way that she talked was as if this big thing had just broke. It came out. Okay, enough is enough. People keep trying to malign me and say that my husband was introduced to me by Epstein, that I'm one of Epstein's victims. I'm not a victim of Epstein. He did not introduce me to my husband. This has to stop right now. And so it was weird. And the thing that I wondered was, like, does your husband know you're doing this? Like, he's been trying to get people off this thing forever, and now all of a sudden you're coming out and doing it. So I've said many times that the one person who can get me to do something against my own interests is my wife. And so did that happen here? Like, is she just behind the scenes? So unrelenting? I cannot tolerate the way that people are talking about me online. This is going to be my legacy. I don't want, like, you got to let me talk about it. And he's finally like, jesus Christ. Okay, fine. Like, go do it. I'm not going to mention it. I'm not even going to talk about it. Like, but if you need to do this, go do this. Or is this strategy where it's like, something is about to break and so you need to get ahead of this and, like, just try to basically plant like, this is all bullshit. So when this thing comes out that the air is already deflated out of the tire. I don't know.

[Ryan]

But, Michael, what's your whole response?

[Michael Malice]

Is anything good at dropping imminently though?

[Tom Bilyeu]

People are saying, but it's all rumored that nobody knows of anything new.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, I don't see. So, Melania, people might not realize this during 2016 when the Access Hollywood tape broke and Trump went on camera. And I think when the only times apologized, she was the one who came up with the line that this was locker room talk. So she's a lot more canny than people appreciate. Double check me on that. But I'm Almost certain that's the case. And she wore to the debate something that was called a pussy bow.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Bow.

[Michael Malice]

Which is kind of ironic that the knot that was. That was tied.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm gonna need to see that.

[Michael Malice]

The pussy bow.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

I've never heard of this Melania debate. Pull this up. I spend way too much time in tinfoil hat. Well, you're searching on Twitter, so I don't know if maybe on Google. Anyway, it's Melania, I think, is very composed and poised, so it seems unlikely to me that she would just snap and be like, enough is enough. Especially because it has slowed down. Like, I don't think people are going after her in recent times after this bill. Yeah. Really?

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's what we're gonna call that? I don't know.

[Michael Malice]

Well, she didn't name it. There's different types. There's different types of knots.

[Ryan]

You lay down. You lay down.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's like, listen, I like to see vagina everywhere I can.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I think it's named after, like, a cat's hands that. Can you look up the etymology? I think that's where it comes from. It's not about a vagina. Tom, My God. Get your mind.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What?

[Michael Malice]

I'm serious. What do you mean?

[Tom Bilyeu]

We. We started this conversation based on a certain statement that Trump made about grabbing them in the.

[Michael Malice]

Right. But that term wasn't originated by her. Yeah. And I'm sure the term wasn't a

[Tom Bilyeu]

reference, but are you saying she's so. She is so shrewd that she's like, I'm gonna wear this thing, commonly referred to as a bow, when I could have done a thousand other knots. As a comment on this whole situation.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You've got her map differently than me, and it.

[Ryan]

And it resembles the bows tied around the cat's necks.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That makes a lot more sense. Okay, okay.

[Michael Malice]

Hey. It could be a coincidence.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Maybe it could be coincidence. But the point is, the thing.

[Michael Malice]

The locker room talk. Please look that up. Because that, I think, came from her. It's. It's. It's. It is odd that she would say this either with or without his permission. It doesn't feel. It feels out of character for her. It's the same thing with Usha's wedding ring. So there was one time she wasn't wearing her wedding ring, and she's like, oops, I forgot it. I was washing dishes. Then she didn't wear it again after it became a huge thing. And I know the people like, something's up with this broad. And it turned out she was pregnant. When you're pregnant, you can't wear that wedding ring. Your hands are swollen. So when something like this happens, it always seems to me there's a piece of the puzzle that we're not seeing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malice]

This is out of character for completely.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, it's certainly out of character for the administration.

[Ryan]

According to Michael Cohen's testimony, locker room talk defense was Melania's idea.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Wow.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

I'm swore. Yes. Sworn under oath.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Let's go.

[Ryan]

How do you rate the handling of Trump administration with the Epstein files and everything?

[Michael Malice]

It is so. So here's the thing. I talked about this on with Kurt Metzger. I talked about in Rogan. What's the. The thing that I can't wrap my head around is a lot of people who are like, Epstein files, smoking gun also think that every Democrat in the House spontaneously started caring about hurting children. Like they have these two contradictory ideas in their head simultaneously. I think that if there was anything really incriminating there, it would have been scrubbed a long time ago. I think a lot of things that people are reading to it aren't things that are necessarily there. And I'm hesitant that what is going to be released to the public is going to be enough to do this kind of cataclysmic damage that people seem to be hoping for.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think that the way that people are running with it in their minds is way more cataclysmic than anything that's going to come out.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So the thing that's interesting, though, is that you have seen a much bigger response from other countries where it's like, merely being in it. You're toast. Like, that's the end of your tenure. And we haven't had that same response in the US And I think the one that probably stands out for a lot of people is Mr. Counter Fitzgerald. Why am I blanking on his name? E. Commerce Secretary.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Howard Lutnick.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So that one is like. Like, you obviously lied and got caught in that lie, and yet there you are. Now they've clearly, like, sidelined him and we don't hear from him very much anymore.

[Michael Malice]

No, we didn't before either. Commerce Secretary is not a big deal.

[Tom Bilyeu]

He was pretty hot for a minute, like. Yeah. At the beginning of banger interviews.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, the terrorists. Yeah. Ye. Fair.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's fair. So, but since then, and you want to talk about a time where the economy is, like, on the ropes right now, we'd ex. I would have expected to hear from him, but Bessant eats up all of the time that I think would have been and was at the beginning of the administration shared between the two of them. So I think anyway conspiracy theory that they're hiding him a bit. So there is something that does feel more insular here in the US that people are getting away with something here that they didn't get away with with elsewhere.

[Michael Malice]

I think the thing that's indisputable the Epstein files is that powerful elites work together and don't care about how it looks to the layman. And the reason for that is a lot of these people aren't even accused of doing anything with Epstein. But what was clearly the case is that they were trying to become friends with him or were friends with him even after his arrest and all these things came out. So I think that shows the level of amorality there were to the I, I, there's somebody, Michael Alec, who was one of the club kids, kids, and he ended up killing someone and he went to jail.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, wait, I know this story.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah, I have one of his paintings because I saw it in a store and it looked like it said malice, but it was M aleg and whatever my mom got for my birthday, I visit him in jail. Point being, he was a murderer. He had jobs lined up for him when he was leaving jail. So it's the kind of thing where like, you know, if you're, if you're someone I like, you're just, you get a blank check to whoever you want. It's really kind of, I've always said, and when I say this, no one disagrees. Hillary Clinton will always have more in common with Donald Trump than with some janitor who always voted Democrat his entire life. Yeah, I mean if you're like that, no one's like, everyone's like, of course it's a no brainer. Like George Carlin says, it's a big club and you ain't in it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's really interesting because I've gotten wealthy. I have found myself in rooms that feel just extraordinarily foreign to me where it's like, oh, there's a way of interfacing with the world that I just do not. I'm, I haven't been. I think the brain forms in certain ways when you're young that it's just never going to an adulthood. And so the way that I grew up was sort of middle class to lower middle class. And so forever and a day, the way that my brain interprets the world is from a world where my neighbors had cows. I didn't but my neighbors did. So it's like to then find myself in these sort of high powered, like New Yorkie lawyer plugged in like I do.

[Michael Malice]

But you're also new money. Yes. You're trash to them.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes. To. Certainly to an east coast mentality for sure.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So. But that whole space just feels weird. You can just feel that there's a different way of going about the world because they've been connected.

[Michael Malice]

They've been groomed and bred to this world. You're like a protein bar guy. Like, oh, that's cute. You know what I mean? Like in their mindset.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. There's also. I just from the networking side of things, even from a new money, like west coast guy, I'm still bad at it. So.

[Michael Malice]

What do you mean?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Epically. I'm surprised that you find that surprising.

[Michael Malice]

I, I. Please continue. Go on.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

[Michael Malice]

Say more. You always say that. Say more.

[Tom Bilyeu]

My audience is probably going to be bored to tears because they've heard this so many times. But I do not have whatever that genetic impulse is to seek outward. I do not do. So as soon as the cameras stop rolling, I'm going to turn inward.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And light. Like, if I'm having trouble falling asleep, I have a cue phrase that I use.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And it will just set my imagination running and I'm gonna fall asleep.

[Michael Malice]

Are you gonna pass out right now? If I say it, what is it?

[Tom Bilyeu]

It doesn't work like that. But if I am, if I have free time, I don't take out my phone. I say the same phrase. And that's like whatever problem I'm trying to solve in Kaizen, I just set myself to that and then I'll collapse inside of that.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so the right way to mentally map me is as a writer, not as an entrepreneur.

[Michael Malice]

Entrepreneur. Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So that's just. I will go inside my own imagination, explore ideas or solve problems.

[Michael Malice]

You are someone who is interested in people. You're interested in ideas. So I would think at an event you would find that one person and glom onto them. That's my.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's exactly what happens.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. That's my technique.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's a terrible networking strategy. But then the real question is, how often do I find myself in those rooms? And the answer would be virtually never.

[Michael Malice]

I only go to those rooms if I have an escape hat.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't even think about that. I just never go to those rooms. It is literally my producer's biggest pain point. If the camera were on him, they Will see him nodding is that getting guests on the show becomes increasingly difficult because I just don't ever make time for people.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, wow. Well, also, you know, they. They confide in me how difficult you are off camera.

[Tom Bilyeu]

There's that. Yeah, I'm. I am a raging tyrant, you guys. It'll come out one day, don't worry.

[Michael Malice]

Your modern day Amy Club attention are exactly nice.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Thank you.

[Ryan]

All right, moving on to this China hack. A hacker group called by the name of Flaming China breached the National Supercomputing center and exfiltrated up to 10 betabytes. I never even heard of like that many today.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, it is massive. To give you an idea, the entire Library of Congress is less than 1 petaby byte. So this is like some egregious number more than what you would find if you downloaded all of that. It's absolutely massive. This really is China's worst nightmare. And it's now on sale on Telegram. A single hacker may have just pulled off what is the largest data theft in Chinese history. So the 10 petabytes that we're talking about of data that they snatched is now for sale to the highest bidder on the Dark Web. So the alleged target was Chinese National Supercomputing center in Tianjin. And it's a centralized hub that provides computing infrastructure to more than 6,000 clients across China, including advanced science and defense agencies. The hacker operating under the alias Flaming China posted a sample of the database on Telegram in early February, claiming it contained over 10 petabytes of sensitive information. All kinds of crazy stuff. You guys have seen the photos. It's like Secret Aircraft and Airflow Dynamics and all this stuff.

[Ryan]

Stuff.

[Tom Bilyeu]

The data allegedly includes classified defense documents, missile schematics, technical files, animated simulations of defense technology and research spanning aerospace engineering, bioinformatics and fusion simulation. Because some of the data center's 6,000 clients rely entirely on China's National Supercomputing center rather than maintaining their own supercomputing infrastructure, a single network breach like this effectively compromises thousands of downstream organizations in China simultaneously. And the crazy part is that the hacker used a method that wasn't even like sophisticated. This wasn't bleeding edge super exploit, you know, that you would expect him to have worked really hard on. The hacker just claimed to gain entry simply through a compromised VPN domain. And then he deployed a botnet that extracted the data slowly over for six months, completely undetected. And the hacker is now offering a limited preview for a few thousand dollars if you want to see it. And if you want to Buy the whole thing. You can do so for hundreds of thousands payable in cryptocurrency. Just keep giving crypto a bad name.

[Michael Malice]

A good name I suppose.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Cybersecurity researchers say that only nation state intelligence agencies would realistically have the capacity to deal with a data set of this size. But obviously it's pretty bad. Now this could still be a hoax. I've tried to find anywhere that's saying that this isn't real, but so far everybody's saying that it, the data looks real. So we'll see. Over time you just pay for it.

[Michael Malice]

You get like 50 billion copies of Goat. See.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh God. Talk about a reference I have thankfully not thought of in a very long time.

[Michael Malice]

How are you going to like if someone bought this, how are they going to deliver it? It like how many memory sticks is that? Like, like literally what is the mechanism? What are they gonna email it to me?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Definitely not gonna email Google Drive link.

[Michael Malice]

Like literally how do you deliver this

[Tom Bilyeu]

attachment is too large.

[Michael Malice]

Exactly. For the earth.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You would, you'd have to curry over hard drives or something. Yeah, but how many for 10 petabytes you can store a lot like we have hundreds of terabytes here as a company and it, it would fit on this desk. So okay, it's not, it's a lot.

[Michael Malice]

But that, that courier is also leaving a trail.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

So I'm saying delivery is also going to be really good.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Some of the logistics, I don't know. You could also probably you wouldn't use email, but you might be able to digitally. I mean he digitally downloaded it so it takes time if, if his system

[Michael Malice]

is as simple as he claims. Let's, let's go with that for the time being. There's no way that the US and other governments haven't done this, this well.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So if you had said a week ago, I would say it's probably not true. Just because the volume of things you have to try to attack can often be mind numbing. So things like this, these zero day exploits, it's entirely possible this has been out there for a long time. And just the sheer volume of these things to check, you couldn't find. But the AI, the Claude Mythos has found over a thousand I think exploits in like the most common software out there there. So it's just finding them left, right and side.

[Michael Malice]

I saw an article where, where people were sending AI to hack systems and they were finding them all over the place and it's like okay, what do we do now? Because this is, this is a genies at the bottle.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So they launched. They're holding Mythos back and instead they've launched Glass Wing.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So they're basically used the. The abilities to use it as like a. A pen tester to go in against all these software and then help them plug all the holes. So at least they'll get to the point where it's like, okay, all this super common software, once it's battle tested by Mythos, then we'll launch it because those guys will have repaired it and then we're at least one level higher. But it shows that one Claude leaked their own code. Now, how much of it got out? Would they be able to sort of reverse engineer this? But if you think about like deepsea has traditionally only been three to six months behind whatever the bleeding edge model is. So it's very possible that you're 18 months from an open source version of Mythos that's that powerful at hacking. That's going to get wild fast.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Yesterday, Scott Bessant and the federal Powell, the federal chair, Jerome Powell, summoned Wall street leaders to actually have an urgent meeting to talk about this very thing. We need to figure out our cybersecurity

[Michael Malice]

vulnerabilities for my zoology hat on again, Is it Glasswing or is it Glasswing? Because a glass wing is a type of insect, which is really cool. And I. Are they naming it after insect? Are they blowing that opportunity?

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's a great question. So it's not a great.

[Michael Malice]

It's a terrible question.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, no. It's actually very interesting because I was like, man, they're really highlighting the fragility of all this. And so I couldn't understand why they were doing glass wing. One word and they have what looks like an insect wing.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, okay. So really cool.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Exactly what this is.

[Ryan]

Glasswing beetle.

[Michael Malice]

No, it's a butterfly. Or this a butterfly relative or they. They're predators, if my. If I'm remembering correctly.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Those are types of butterflies.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Now that's not what their logo looks like at all.

[Michael Malice]

Pull up a lace swing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Now, again, a little bit of trivia for the Michael fans in the house.

[Michael Malice]

Lace swing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So Michael Malice at his house. I know.

[Michael Malice]

Is that what it looks like, the logo?

[Tom Bilyeu]

It looks more like one of those wings. Absolutely. He has a lot of plants.

[Michael Malice]

That's true.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And when you ask him the organizing principle of the plants, it is things that look like they are in pain.

[Michael Malice]

That's my favorite type of plant. And I send you some photos.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I find your interest in succulents and the other sort of Deserty, pain induced plants. Very interesting.

[Michael Malice]

It's, it's, it's very fun to look like plants who are cenobites or being tortured in some.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Literally what your garden looks like.

[Michael Malice]

Look up Phil McCracken cactus. It's a mutation of a cactus. That's the one I send you. And it looks like it's suffering.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Let's see this. You're going to want to pull. Yep, there we go. It looks like it's suffering. I hate cactuses. Hate.

[Michael Malice]

Why?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Because they are obviously designed to.

[Michael Malice]

Does that look like it's in pain?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes. And it looks like it would put me in pain.

[Michael Malice]

It would. Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, I like soft, fluffy. Like if I'm gonna have plants like a bogan villa. That's my kind of plant.

[Ryan]

All right.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes.

[Ryan]

Our next topic is something that I think you would enjoy, Mr. Malice. It is a California worker burned down an entire warehouse because they weren't paying him enough. Is this the definition of anarchy?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, man, no. I'll be so curious to know if you and I end up on the same page or if we argue about this one. This one riles me up big, big time.

[Michael Malice]

Why is it I. I think it's just one data point. That's why I'm not getting riled up about it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So we, we are very, very far apart from each other on this. So let me give you guys all a breakdown if you don't know about it. So we just got a preview of our own modern French Revolution. From where I'm sitting, this is the part I expect us to argue about. But this guy filmed himself burning down a 1.2 million square foot distribution center in California while saying on camera, all you had to do was pay us enough to live. So he's just going around lighting, lighting, lighting it all on fire. This building, a massive Kimberly Clark distribution center was burned to the ground. The blaze escalated to a six alarm fire within minutes. Around 175 firefighters from over a dozen agencies battled it through the night, but it was lost just completely to the ground. 29 year old Kamel Abdul Karim filmed himself setting the fire and posted it to Instagram, which I still can't believe is true, but he did. You can call this a self purchase one way ticket to prison. This kid is going away. He walked through the warehouse lighting a whole bunch of stuff on fire with a lighter. You guys got to see it for yourselves and hear him for yourself. Let's play the clip. This is wild. Remember, he posted this himself. This is him showing the warehouse house Lighting the first should have paid us enough to live. You know, we may not get paid

[Michael Malice]

enough to live, but these dirt cheap.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So he just showed a lighter.

[Michael Malice]

All you had to do was pay

[Tom Bilyeu]

us enough to live.

[Michael Malice]

All you had to do was pay us enough to live.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Looking at all the different things that he's already lit on fire.

[Michael Malice]

All you had to do was pay us enough to live.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right, so he worked for NFI Industries, which is the third party logistics 6 contractor running the warehouse. And from what I can find, NFI pays warehouse workers about $18 an hour, which is about $37,000 a year. The bad news is that the average one bedroom apartment in Ontario runs $2,000.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, is this Canada?

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, no, no. Ontario, California.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, sorry.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay. Now the problem is that when you have a catastrophically K shaped economy, you're going to run into problems. And every elite class in history has had to learn the hard way that people will only put up with so much.

[Michael Malice]

That's true, True.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So take the infamous French Revolution that saw a whole lot of people get separated from their heads. In 1789, French peasants were spending up to 90% of their income on bread. Harvests had failed, prices had spiked. The gap between what labor could produce and what labor could afford for themselves became absolutely obscene. Which is exactly what we're starting to see now and here in the us. And the problem is that revolutions are a nightmare for all involved. People getting real romantic. This guy's real romantic about the idea of starting a revolution. And the guillotine never stops with the first enemy. The first to be guillotined were the aristocracy for sure. But ultimately the French Revolution consumed lawyers, journalists, priests, merchants.

[Michael Malice]

My favorite people too.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, not to mention Pol Pot once killed people just for having glasses. That's always a fun reminder of these types of revolutions. Robespierre, the man who built the Reign of Terror, was executed by the same machine that he had been feeding for months. The movement that started with a genuine justified cry for economic suffering ended up collapsing into a bloodbath that killed tens of thousands of French citizens, most of them not nobility. And then into that chaos is exactly where Napoleon steps how he comes to power. He doesn't try to calm everybody down, by the way, he tries to weaponize them. He understood that once people get a taste for blood, you're not going to be able to soothe them. So your job is to point them at something else, which is my exact fear here in the us. So he took Napoleon. All that raw blood, drunk revolutionary energy, all that rage with nowhere left to go. And he pointed it at Europe and France spent the next two decades invading its neighbors. And some people quite far away, looting their treasuries, burning their cities, conscripting the young men. And somewhere between 3 and 6,6 million people ended up dying. The working class men who stormed the Bastille dreaming of bread and dignity ended up dying in Russian snow fields so that one man could be the emperor. Now, if Americans let their rage turn into something useless, it will all be for naught. Now, we have a very realistic picture of what's happening with the economy right now and how to fix it. But emotions are not going to be the thing to get the job done. And this is like my endless cry to people is to understand, yes, there is a very toxic K shaped economy. Yes, this is a real thing. And yes, if you keep pushing people in that direction, you will find they will push back. Because if people can't make ends meet and things keep getting more expensive and billionaires keep getting wealthier, people will revolt. This is a tale as old as time. There is a reason that countries do not stay at a debt to GDP ratio of more than 1.130% for more than roughly 18 months. Japan being the only exception. And the reason they don't is things just become intolerable. We have just an algorithm running in our minds that just do not allow us to tolerate that kind of toxic inequality. And the problem with something like this is by burning this warehouse down, he doesn't end up hurting the company that almost certainly has insurance. What he ends up hurting is all the people that were requiring the job there to make the money to live. And so now he ends up fucking over the very people he thinks he's helping because he does not understand the economy. And so this is where I always derail and I feel like I'm screaming into a void. And it really does make me think, I don't know, that there's a way to snap people out of it.

[Michael Malice]

Who wrote that stuff on the teleprompter? Was that you?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Me?

[Michael Malice]

For naught. N A U G H T. Okay, I'm just sorry that's triggered my.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You really are. What was it? Oh, God. You gave me the way I'm gonna grok. Please explain to him what people heard read perfectly in their mind.

[Michael Malice]

True. That's why I was confused.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So I'll let you argue with Grok.

[Michael Malice]

I also don't think. I think I. History does. Mark Twain said history doesn't repeat. It rhymes. Yeah, I really hate the idea that, like Trump, for example, people hate Trump. Trump's Hitler because he's a historian dictator. I'm like, can he be Mussolini? Can he be Franco? No. Everything. And right now, every international conflict is both simultaneously the Iraq War and the Vietnam War and World War three. Right. Not everything is the French Revolution. This isn't even the Arab Spring. So I think this kind of thing happens. You and I discussed earlier all the time. No one's popping off as a result of this. And I think America, historically, other than the very first revolution, we haven't. The Civil War would be, I guess, another example. We're not a revolution friendly country.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What do you think stops upset?

[Michael Malice]

I don't know. That's a great question. But I don't think America is the kind of country where I think there's enough flexibility, maybe in our politics that if things. We talked about this before, we were recording the benefits army, which is under Herbert Hoover. There are all these veterans who are like, we can't put food on the table, give us our pensions, whatever benefits. Now they send in the tanks and they kind of took care of them in a very nefarious way. Point being, I think what would happen is if you did have this. Remember Occupy, you know, there was this huge movement. Obama used it very effectively and it kind of. Those people all vanished. So when you have this kind of fomenting underground and calls to violence, someone in our system or the media will exploit it or redirect it, historically speaking.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so let me. I'm going to make my best pitch to you and we'll see how far I get and maybe you'll enlighten me and I will finally see the path forward for.

[Michael Malice]

But, and also, I also want to say I am far more comfortable with revolution than you are. So I'm not even saying that it's as bad as you would say it is.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Right? For sure. So here's my take. All of that made sense before. And if you don't understand the, the cause and effect mechanism in the economy that is breaking right now, that has never broken historically, not during the Civil War, not any other time, but it is breaking now. And that's why we have a problem. And the reason that the Occupy movement, for instance, went away was because the. In fact, making it go away is the reason that we have a problem now that we're not going to be able to solve. And that thing is money printing. Okay, so what we did was we said, oh, yeah, people are pissed because the banks got bailed out. But Bailing out the banks actually does work, but it only works for so long. And when the economy is fine, then people are fine.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What I'm saying is the economy is reaching a breaking point. It is. In the next 10 years, it will get to the point where America will functionally default. It doesn't matter if they're going to claim default.

[Michael Malice]

What does that mean?

[Tom Bilyeu]

So they will have to inflate the currency or actually just say, we're not paying you back.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And the second you say we're not paying you back, you either. The one thing that they could try is if we isolate ourselves enough, we could say we're just not paying back all the foreign people and we could try that. But most likely there will be some level of the Americans that are investing in the American economy are going to get hurt because they're going to say either we're only paying back 60 cents on the dollar or whatever, and that will be devastating. That will end the dollar as reserve currency status. That will force people to go into a level of austerity that we have not. No one living now in America has seen this kind of austerity. And so all of that, at a time where the country is so politically divided, so tribalistic, you really are fighting over a smaller pie. And when you're fighting over a smaller pie, and one half is like, you're going to give all my money to the trans, and the other half is like, you're going to give all my money to the billionaires, they are going

[Michael Malice]

to fight, but you're. You're taking it as a given that the American tribalism will continue. And there have been several times in history where things got bad and they became this huge national consensus. 1980-1984-1932-1972. So even though it seems impossible now that everyone's going to come together, have this kind of 6040 election or 6040 perspective, it would have looked impossible for Trump to be elected president. So it's not at all a given that if hits the fort Bush, George W. Bush, who lost the popular vote to Al gore and got 90 approval ratings in the wake of 9 11, which he obviously squandered. Point being, it's not at all a given that if shit hits the fan that this division is going to be maintained. Because what. Here's one example. You could have the Democrats being like, we're not talking about the trans stuff, as they have done in recent times, and become this kind of economic. We're going to be the party of jobs and putting food on the table. The Republicans ruin this. And we're not talking the culture war. We could talk about that in four years.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So if what you're saying is that they will actually solve the underlying mechanism, then I would say, okay, maybe, but the only path forward because we're what I don't think people realize. And the part that's really hard to get people on board with is what I'm saying is money has physics, economy has physics.

[Michael Malice]

Correct.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We're now at the end of the physics. So the next thing is it does break. It's not like a. Oh, maybe it breaks. It does break. And so now it becomes a question of given that barring a ahistoric growth rate coming from AI, which is possible, but barring that a historic thing thing, you're in a position where in the next 10 years the self reinforcing thing that will happen with the debt because of the interest will get to the point where America won't be like should we default? It will default. So it will either soft default by hyper inflating the currency.

[Michael Malice]

Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Or it will hard default by just saying we're not paying back the debt.

[Michael Malice]

So when I am, and either is a catastrophe. When I'm in a field where I don't know the lay of the land, I can only go by what historically I've seen. In the 1970s, Barry Goldwater, who was the Republican candidate for president in 1964 and lost in a huge landslide, wrote a book called the Coming Breakpoint. And the point is we cannot afford our debt any longer and America is going to collapse, blah, blah, blah, blah. In 1980, Reagan comes in and the debt explodes, right? So his prophecy didn't come true. There's a book called the Idea of Decline in Western History by Arthur Herman, which is one of the top 10 books I've ever read. And he goes, goes every generation it's. It's a catastrophic catastrophe. I so when I hear things like this, that like in 10 years it's all going to end. This is the kind of thing where we're told every. In my. What I'm hearing possibly incorrectly because I don't the information. Every 10 years we're told there's 10 years left of oil and then things end up not happening in that way. So this is such a bold prediction that it is hard for me, although I could be driving off a cliff to kind of take it at face value. Because here's the other thing in When I was in College in the 90s, I was an intern at the Cato Institute. And they had a whole project saying Social Security is going to go bankrupt by 2010 and then old people won't have money. I don't even know what they did. But that did not end up happening.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So.

[Michael Malice]

And Obamacare is going to collapse the healthcare system. I'm going to have socialized healthcare and it's going to be by design. We heard this in 2010. That didn't end up happening, too. It is not a good thing. Obamacare, but we do not have socialized health care yet.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So I think you're approaching the problem in the exact right way, which is, if I don't know the field in general, let me look at historical examples. It rhymes, it doesn't repeat, but I think that's the right way to do it. And so the good news is from the, this is a knowable thing. Not that your outcome will come true, but when you look at those moments and you just think about the money supply, you look at the debt load. Those guys were. I don't know if they were lying or if they didn't understand the economy, but the reality is that what I'm doing is not saying, oh, the levees are going to break. I'm saying the water level is now like dripping over the edge because it's gotten that high. And all I'm saying is at the rate that we're going now, the water level is going to keep rising. And so physics tell you the water will spill over.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And. And because we're at the physics level now, I'm just like, well, there are things you can do to drain the water.

[Michael Malice]

Sure, sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so if you start draining the water, reducing the debt, this won't happen.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm just saying I don't see the political will to stop that. And so when you've got the, you've got. The Democrats are spending money left, right and center, you've got the Republicans spending money left, right and center.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so if either party goes, hey, we're going to Margaret Thatcher this, we're going to go into austerity. It is what it is. You guys can complain as much as you want, but we are going to do it because honestly, if they just balance the budget, we don't have any more problems.

[Michael Malice]

Or even just decreased significantly the deficit.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, the deficit probably that might even be harder because we can get by with the deficit where it is right now. But you've got to stop making the deficit worse.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So if, like a little bit of water is dribbling over into the danger zone and you say we're going to make sure that the water level doesn't go up anymore. Then I'm like, okay, great.

[Michael Malice]

So this is something that I think everyone in the audience is going to think I'm completely insane. And I think you will not think I'm insane. Historically speaking, other countries, it is leftist parties that are in a position to put these austerity measures in right. Because the same way as Nixon in China. Nixon, you know, got elected to the Senate by calling his political opponent the Pink Lady, Helen G. Hagen Douglas, calling her basically a communist. He has had his bona fides. He took down al his found that he was a communist spy within the State Department, I believe. So for him to go to China and toast Mao, if it was anyone to the left, they would be destroyed because you're soft on communism. No one's going to accuse Nixon being soft to communism. Reagan and Thatcher did the same thing with Gorbachev where it's like they're on the right wing of the right wing party. There was no one to outflank them and say you're not hard enough against communism. So when leftists get into office and this austerity thing happened, this happened in Canada, I think with Trudeau's dad, he did it back in the day. They are often in a position to implement these austerity measures and sell it to their people. We saw this happen in the 90s where Bill Clinton didn't want to balance the budget, but he did balance the budget. He was forced to do it. So there is a. And I know looking at the Democratic Party now, this sounds like I'm completely lost my mind.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It just sounds unlikely.

[Michael Malice]

It is right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Your argumentation is, is very logical.

[Michael Malice]

It, I completely agree it sounds unlikely. But at the same time when things are there's self preservation and there's what you want to do to further your party's control and power. So I the people have these two contra people on the right have these two completely contradictory views of Democratic Party and people on the left of the Republic Party, which is one is they're completely ideologues and they'll destroy the country. They don't care. And also they're completely soulless and corrupt and will do or say anything to maintain their whole impact power. These are not, you can't be both. And I think there's wings of one and wings of the other. But I think this wing, the corporate hack wing, is a lot stronger in the Democratic Party than people Realize the Republicans didn't shut the squad up. That was Pelosi. It wasn't the Republicans who stopped Bernie Sanders. That was the Biden machine and the Hillary machine. So that wing of the Democratic Party is quite strong and they are a lot more attuned to business interests than one would think, given the radical rhetoric.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, I mean, I still don't see. I don't argue a single fact of that. I still don't see anybody that's actually going to implement austerity measures. And history tells us that every empire that has found themselves in the position that we're in right now, they don't make it and they do implode and they lose their status either by war. So this is what is what happened to the uk and they ended up having to hand the baton to us.

[Michael Malice]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So that would look like us handing the baton to China. And given that we're flirting with World War III right now, like there's a very logical conclusion to be drawn. America's overextended.

[Michael Malice]

That's true.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We try to fight this crazy war on fronts and then we just find ourselves, we've got so much debt that we don't like, have some spectacular supernova implosion. It's just like the uk. We just have to retreat back to our sphere of influence. We do what we can. Right. We get out of the rest of the world, which would be great. From there, I don't think there's any other option. And then from there we lose power because the rest of the world, somebody else, probably gold for now, is going to take over the being the reserve currency, which means that we can't deficit spend anymore. There will be very little to no appetite for our debt. And so at that point, you're forced into those fiscal measures. So I am not predicting a crazy, like, everybody's dying thing. I'm saying that either we'll have a revolution civil war, or the war that we're already in just continues to escalate to the point where at the end of it, we're so fatigued and so broke, the world just looks completely different.

[Michael Malice]

Well, why couldn't you have an FDR kind of thing?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, from what I know about fdr, FDR needed the ability to print, print, print, print, print, print.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We don't have that ability.

[Michael Malice]

Okay? That's because the people want the money, because we're not gonna be able to sell our dollars because no one's gonna want to invest.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No one will buy the debt.

[Michael Malice]

I, I think at a certain I, I don't think we're anywhere close to the point where the American dollar is something that is regarded as a bad investment.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, that, that's what I'm saying. Mathematically just isn't true. So you are right now if you don't grow in 10 years it would be economic suicide. Again, this assumes static.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But 10 years from now static it would be suicide to invest in the US dollar. Okay, we'll see where we are in 10 years because this assumes nobody adjusts. But right now nobody is adjusting. In fact they're going in the wrong direction. We're stacking debt again now faster.

[Michael Malice]

I'm opposed to government completely. I also just think that America is a lot smarter and stronger than that. That and I think 10 years to say we're going to the dollar's going to not be a stable source of investment. It's hard for me to see that even if it's true.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, I mean I, I search and search and search for the mechanism and right now given current politicians behaviors there is only one and that's growth.

[Michael Malice]

Correct.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And right now staring at a 0.5% growth in GDP when we were expecting a 2.2 which was already a catastrophic decline and we're at war, sort of cease fiery. But we'll see. That's where I'm like ah. And there's none of these are good.

[Michael Malice]

And at the moment there's no restraint. There's no appetite for restraint of any kind in Washington on the budget. I agree with that completely.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So you have a base assumption that says we will course correct. We of course corrected every time before you Michael Malice are not denying that a course correction will be required. You're just.

[Michael Malice]

No, no, there will be some confidence. There will be. I'm not supreme confident. I'm still saying there will be some kind of course correction. And I'm, I'm just saying things can go bad without going revolution catastrophe.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Sure it it is. It does not violate the laws of physics for that to happen. If you consider World War II the like, okay, we made it out.

[Michael Malice]

No, no, I don't consider World War II because that's catastrophe.

[Tom Bilyeu]

One more time other than Japan, every time a country has spent more than 18 months at over 130 debt to GDP and Japan, that whole setup is so unique and we do not match it. It's ended in bloodshed every time.

[Ryan]

All right, we got to move on. We got to hit one more topic before we go super chat. And one more time. Canada just dropped a new acronym we

[Tom Bilyeu]

have to talk about it. I love that you think we have to cover this.

[Ryan]

We have to. I know, I know. Yeah. We have to deal with the ongoing

[Michael Malice]

Genocide of MMIW G2SLGBTQIA Plus.

[Ryan]

This is a deal with the ongoing

[Michael Malice]

genocide of MMIW G2SLGBTQQIA Plus. Can we guess what that stands for? Can I look?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I tried. I actually.

[Michael Malice]

Let me see if I could do it. Okay. Let me see if I could do it. Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Mm.

[Ryan]

Hold on.

[Michael Malice]

Let's start from the beginning. We know at the end is queer. Questioning. Inter.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Is each of.

[Michael Malice]

Is each of the M's a different thing? No, no, no. It's kind of the same thing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What do you mean?

[Michael Malice]

So unless.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Don't give it away yet.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I was just going to say

[Ryan]

a couple of these letters are all

[Michael Malice]

in the same word. That's what I'm asking. Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, but just to be clear, though, they are all different words. They are part of a phrase. Trust me, I know.

[Michael Malice]

I should clarify that. It's not just sexual identity, though.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You can't give this away. Well, I feel like you're very bad at this game, Ryan. Ryan is terrible at this game because part of the punchline is going to be that those first letters are. It's heartbreaking. Oh, my God. I can't believe it exists. But like, that it's getting mixed together with, like, sexual identify.

[Michael Malice]

What's the G? Give me the G, girls. I'll let y' all guess, cuz I threw it off. The G is girls, women, men.

[Ryan]

You know, men. Men isn't in there at all.

[Michael Malice]

Okay, so women, women and girls. Yes, in inter. Wait, intersex is the I is the eye, though, is.

[Tom Bilyeu]

No, you already got that one.

[Michael Malice]

You women, girls, think of an identity.

[Tom Bilyeu]

If you get there, I will have a level of shock. Chat. Is anybody in chat. Do you guys get. Get this? No, but now you're getting close.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Mmi.

[Tom Bilyeu]

If it's not Inuit, but you're on the right track.

[Michael Malice]

First person, what would the I be?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes, but there's another word for it.

[Michael Malice]

Indian.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, you're so close.

[Ryan]

Indigenous.

[Tom Bilyeu]

There.

[Michael Malice]

Oh, and what's the.

[Ryan]

What's the Missing and murdered indigenous women, girls, and two Spirit, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender queer, questioning intersex and asexual.

[Tom Bilyeu]

People, can you please play that clip that I sent you? It's right under this.

[Michael Malice]

This.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This. This video was too amazing. So wherever you got that one from,

[Michael Malice]

to be fair, not. Just because a lot of people are being murdered doesn't make It a genocide.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Also true. Online have been mocking the MMIW G2S

[Michael Malice]

LGBTQIA+ acronym, making out that it's some kind of joke.

[Tom Bilyeu]

MMIW G2S LGBTQia was simply an upgrade from LGBTQIA+ in order to be more inclusive to missing people in indigenous communities. Comparing MMIW LWG2S LGBTQIA to a strong password or the next sequel in the Call of Duty franchise is not only grossly offensive, but deeply disrespectful to those

[Michael Malice]

communities who are simply asking for us

[Tom Bilyeu]

to adjust our language. I love how many times he does it.

[Michael Malice]

It also doesn't include pansexual. That's.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's an outrage. That is an outrage. But I think they're supposed to be rounded up in the plus.

[Michael Malice]

No, they're not. The plus is something else else. They're encompassed by the. The B. Because I think bisexual. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not step on this. That's a landmine. Because the whole point is I think bisexual in this ethos, bisexual people don't sleep with trans people. At least for the time being, they're allowed to. And pansexual means bisexual, including trans. I think that's.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't think I knew.

[Michael Malice]

I think that's a thing. I mean, I've always just heard the difference is pansexual is just. I don't even think about gender. That's a difference. But to me, that doesn't mean like a bisexual wouldn't sleep with a trans person, but a bisexual might not sleep with a gender fluid person or a non binary person.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And this stuff gets hard to try.

[Michael Malice]

Is non binary even there? Non binary is not even there.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm sorry, that's either Q or the plus.

[Michael Malice]

No, the Q is queer and the Q is questioning.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But queer. Doesn't it include, like you could be

[Michael Malice]

queer and not be non binary?

[Ryan]

Well, non binary is gender.

[Michael Malice]

Right?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Right. Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Wow, this is getting specific. I'm. I'm gonna need to.

[Ryan]

But that's.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think that's flawed at this point.

[Ryan]

That's where the hypocrisy of this comes to is cuz like you're adding in murdered and missing indigenous women, but you're leaving out people with other sexual identities in the sexual.

[Michael Malice]

Or how about murdered missing boys? Like they don't count.

[Tom Bilyeu]

They don't count. Problem. How dare you? How dare you.

[Michael Malice]

You know Dave Landau?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I know the name.

[Michael Malice]

He's a comedian. He. He's got this great joke about when he was a kid, you know, some old man came up to him and this is a true story. And after him, can he go in his van and he's like, I'm lucky was just like butterfingers because he had Twix. I'd be face down in a river.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Jesus, that's amazing.

[Ryan]

That's good, that's good. But, yeah, what's the commentary on this? Is this just another episode of suicidal empathy? Are we missing the plot at this point?

[Tom Bilyeu]

This, to me, yeah, this is people that have lost the plot. So this is going back to the. Some people just need to be chased by lions. Like we, we are going to have a thing that we care about in

[Ryan]

that community and large.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think we all have like this innate need to protect, to push back, to create boundaries. And so when people don't have anything that's like for real. For real, like, this is some life and death shit, you start really getting out there on the abstraction layer.

[Michael Malice]

Tumble you, my hero. I had this exact same question to Brett Weinstein, who's an evolutionary biologist or psychologist. I have, like, here's my theory or hypothesis. One's the wrong term. One's the right one. He yelled at me, I said, my hypothesis theory is that capitalism. And I, I did a book, I edited a book called the Paleo Manifesto and the Paleo man, the Paleo worldview is that our technology advanced faster than biology. So there's a mismatch. Right, right. So I thought, okay, our brains are wired as cavemen or whatever for resource scarcity. What happens when you have shelter and food, everything available? The brain doesn't shut off. It starts looking for problems where there are not none, because that is hardwired. And. And Brett said, you're exactly correct. And I'm. This is what you're seeing?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, 100%. This is one of the first things I noticed in entrepreneurship was that some people just, they had no real threat to deal with. And they started actually acting very strange. And I was just like, what is going on? So, yeah, I think this is that at scale, like at some point also it is a self obsession. Like being able to get outside of your own head is a very wise thing to do. And to see yourself as, you know, being in, like, these people have to suffer me, if you see what I mean. And so not wanting to be as torturous on somebody in terms of how

[Michael Malice]

they could even be simpler, that now this lady has, has a bigger bureaucracy and a bigger budget. And it's like, look, hey, I'm the, I'm the woman who started talking about this? Give me money, give me staff, I'm going to run for higher office.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So it's as cynical as that. I'm in the. The oppression Olympics and all that stuff. It's super wild that people look for that kind of stuff. We want the credibility, we want status. And if we're going to get status by being a victim, then so be it. I think it's. That is terrible as a psa. Boys and girls, please. Everybody's going to be victim to something at some point. Point. Don't make that your identity. Find some way out of that. Think about, I can do something, change something and get a different.

[Michael Malice]

And if they want to talk about murder, I think the third leading. Can you look the sublean cause of death in Canada is medically murder right now. So she's worried about people being murdered, maybe the ones in the hospital by the doctors.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

And you're gonna have. Per their worldview, it's going to disproportionately people who are lgbtq, blah, blah, blah. Because the point is, allegedly they're so oppressed, they're going to have high rates of suicide and depression. So maybe you should worry about all of those people who are being driven in a suicidal direction.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. I haven't fact checked this enough to see if this is backed up, but there was a recent study that came out of Finland, I think, where they followed trans people and they had a control group so they didn't receive any treatment and then ones that did and their rates of suicidal ideation skyrocketed post surgery because.

[Michael Malice]

Skyrocketed because our cultures don't talk about trade offs, offs. So the idea like, even if, if you're a female who's taking after menopause estrogen, there's going to be some cost to it. If you're a male taking look, you have less testosterone, take testosterone, there's going to be some trade off. But the argument for trans people is if you do this, there's no cost to it. And it's just like it makes no sense on a biological level. You're not gonna have side effects from taking hormones. Hormones change the body and they're not being prepped for this.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

And that's the special, man.

[Tom Bilyeu]

If you have surgery like, bro, that's rough. Right.

[Michael Malice]

And also you're not going to literally be a female.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, yeah. That part caught me off guard. I didn't realize that was the argumentation was that. No, no. If you are trans, you are literally the other gender.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I was like wait, what?

[Michael Malice]

Or I'd be perceived that way.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. Even the perceived things. Some people really can. Like there are some people that can pass like good and proper.

[Michael Malice]

Sure. But plenty of them can't.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes, probably the majority.

[Michael Malice]

Right. So then what you're not. You're being.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But my thing is, even if you pass pass if your internal identity goes all the way to I am that that's where I get lost.

[Michael Malice]

Sure. But the point is, in terms of the depression, if you're told if you get these surgeries, you'll be able to live the life as a female and that is not true. You ran out of options. If you aren't going on the knife, that's your last resort.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm also just worried about complications.

[Michael Malice]

I mean that's. I'm trying to steal man this as much as possible.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But like I've heard horror stories about people like the women who take the trans women. So they invert the penis. Yeah. Male to female. But they'll get like hairs that are still growing.

[Michael Malice]

Of course.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. Oh God.

[Michael Malice]

And they have to sit on a a. I know we have kids watching, but they have to dilate for the rest of their lives or it seals up cuz a wound.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So wild. Yeah, that's rough.

[Ryan]

One of the leading causes. I haven't gotten an actual ranking. I only was able to pull up an old one for my 2022.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But one of the causes of what?

[Ryan]

Death in Canada. Assisted suicide. They just reached a milestone of 100,000.

[Michael Malice]

Whoa.

[Ryan]

Dead by the practice.

[Michael Malice]

Wow.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That escalated quickly.

[Michael Malice]

You have to talk to Kelsey Sharon about this. She's been talking about this all the time.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's wild, man. It has been wonderful having you on the show. It's also been fun to get to know you to do some meals. You are one of the only people that I actually make non professional time for.

[Michael Malice]

You are one of the of three people I've met who I completely misjudged when I met you and have only continued to impress me.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Wow. It's very kind. I appreciate that.

[Michael Malice]

It's the truth.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Awesome. Boys and girls. His graphic novel is coming out very soon. Unwanted Go and pre order right now. Unwantedbook.com I am telling you, if you at all are interested in somebody that can handle incredible ideas, but done in a narrative way that will be be I'm sure very surprising and very impactful. This is the book for you and I really want to see him continue down this vein as I'm such a believer in the art form. And also by the way The Ripperverse. Check it out. This is a guy that started this himself. He was a commentator. Got sick of just being a commentator. And so he started this whole comic book publishing house in a really modern and interesting way. And the fact that he has teamed up with Michael says a lot about where these guys are headed. So. So if you're at all inclined, please do that. I'm going to be supporting this. I will guarantee I'm taking it as soon as we get off air here to the stretch goal of 15,000. So enjoy your stickers on my behalf, everybody. Once again, guys, thank you so much for joining us. Very much a pleasure. We will see you again on Monday. All right, everybody, have a great weekend.

[Michael Malice]

Take care, everyone. Thank you so much.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Later, let's talk about a pattern that is is guaranteed to be killing your progress. You know what you need to do? You need consistent nutrition. We all do. You need vitamins, probiotics, greens. We all know that we should be doing more of it. When your morning gets chaotic, you skip it. When you travel, you skip it. When your routine breaks, everything tends to break. And that inconsistency compounds against you every single day. AG1 is designed to solve the execution problem. One scoop 8 ounces of water and you're done.

[Michael Malice]

Done.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You're getting 75 plus ingredients, vitamins and minerals, pre and probiotics, nutrient dense superfoods. Everything that used to require six, seven different supplements and perfect planning now happens in one drink that takes about 30 seconds to make. Right now, AG1 is giving you $87 worth of free gifts with your first subscription. You get a welcome kit, travel packs, vitamin D3 plus, K2 and flavor samples. Samples. Click the link in the show notes or visit drinkag1.comimpact to claim this offer.

[Michael Malice]

Hey marketers, listen up. Before this, there was this. Our voice. It's how we shared knowledge, build communities. Well, guess what? Voice is back. That's why Spotify Advertising has published a new report, the Soundon Era. Because audio moves culture culture forward. And if your brand wants to be heard, you need a sound on Strategy. Go to ads.Spotify.com to download the Soundon Era and turn up the volume on your business.