Podcast Summary: How to Build Ruthless Empathy Without Getting Soft | Stanford Psychologist Jamil Zaki

Podcast: Tom Bilyeu’s Impact Theory
Host: Tom Bilyeu
Guest: Jamil Zaki, Stanford Psychologist, Author of The War for Kindness
Date: December 6, 2025

Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Tom Bilyeu sits down with Dr. Jamil Zaki, Stanford professor and author of The War for Kindness, for a profound conversation on empathy. They explore why empathy is both a critical human skill and an evolutionary advantage, how it’s distinct from (yet deeply related to) kindness and sympathy, and how anyone can cultivate their "empathy muscles" without becoming emotionally depleted. The discussion delves into practical methods, neuroscientific research, real-world stories (from the Rwandan genocide to hate group transformations), and exercises that can help individuals grow their capacity for what Zaki calls "ruthless empathy"—empathy that doesn't require sacrificing strength, boundaries, or clarity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “War for Kindness” & Empathy as an Evolutionary Advantage

• Empathy as Essential, Not Optional

  • Jamil Zaki argues that while kindness and connection are often perceived as "soft," they are, in fact, survival imperatives.
    • "We as a species are built, evolved for connection and togetherness. But that doesn’t mean that those qualities of life are easy to cultivate… in order to recover our sense of connection, I think you do need to fight those trends." (Jamil Zaki, 02:03)
  • Tom likens this to a “war," emphasizing the need for active engagement:
    • "If you’ve got a problem, you really have to attack it and get after it." (Tom Bilyeu, 02:54)

• Empathy and Kindness Are Malleable

  • Drawing a parallel to Carol Dweck’s growth mindset, Zaki emphasizes empathy is not static; it’s a skill:
    • "Just like being physically fit, just like working to strengthen our muscles, we can work to develop ourselves into more empathic, more connected people." (Jamil Zaki, 12:30)

• Evolutionary Roots of Kindness

  • Zaki breaks down three evolutionary mechanisms for the “smartness” of kindness:
    1. Kin Selection—Helping genetic relatives preserves one’s genes. (05:39)
    2. Reciprocity—Mutual aid pays off, directly and in social reputation/community benefits. (06:21)
    3. Cooperative Intelligence—Groups that collaborate outperform purely individualist or competitive groups. (07:42)
  • Zaki debunks an old, restrictive Darwinian narrative:
    • "Even Darwin did not believe that anymore by the time he died. … Sometimes we like to equate selfishness with success. In fact, if anything, the opposite is true." (Jamil Zaki, 05:30)

What Exactly is Empathy? Distinctions Matter

• Three Dimensions of Empathy

  • Emotional Empathy: Feeling as others do.
  • Cognitive Empathy: Understanding what others feel and why.
  • Compassion: Wishing others well, a proactive concern.
    • "Those three jigsaw pieces together make up the full range of human empathy." (Jamil Zaki, 16:57)

• Empathy is Not Always Kindness, and Vice Versa

  • “You can act kindly in lots of situations, not because you are connected with someone, but out of a sense of obligation… Likewise, I think a lot of us… feel empathy, but we can’t do anything about it.” (Jamil Zaki, 16:57)

• Why Sympathy Isn’t The Same

  • Sympathetic pity is a cognitive and emotional remove, while empathy is engagement:
    • "[Sympathy]…the new version…is quite the opposite… I feel bad for you, but I’m not really going there with you." (Jamil Zaki, 19:23)

Notable Moment: Personal Application in Relationships

• Tom distinguishes between sympathy and empathy in his marriage:
  • “If I get knocked to my knees, I don’t want you to get on your knees with me… I want you to understand… but remind me of who I’m trying to become.” (Tom Bilyeu, 22:05)

The Dangers & Boundaries of Empathy

• Empathy Can Become Pathological
  • Too much “emotional empathy” (absorbing others’ pain directly) leads to burnout, especially for professionals like therapists or nurses.
    • "If I’m with my therapist and I’m crying, I don’t want him crying to me… I want him…to help me strategize my way out of where I am." (Jamil Zaki, 26:03)
  • Key to healthy empathy: Awareness and boundaries—a “volume knob” for feeling with, but not being consumed by, others’ pain.

The Role of Tribalism—Empathy’s Double Edge

• Empathy Evolves in Tandem with Tribalism

  • Our “us vs. them” instincts formed for real evolutionary reasons—group survival meant evaluating threats and protecting resources:
    • "The very thing that makes empathy an evolutionary advantage… but so does tribalism… I will kill [the ‘other’] as fast as I’ll kill a water buffalo." (Tom Bilyeu, 30:49)

• Overcoming Zero-Sum Thinking and Polarization

  • Zaki warns of falling into the trap of seeing all conflicts as wins/losses:
    • "When we start to believe that every victory of yours is a defeat of mine, we actually lose opportunities to find win-win situations, common ground and common solutions." (Jamil Zaki, 01:00, revisited at 31:27)
  • Practical research: When people see benefit in empathizing across ideological lines, they’re actually more persuasive and less polarized.

• You Can’t Eliminate Tribalism, But You Can Quiet It

  • "Empathy and tribalism will never, I don’t think, one will ever just steamroll over the other... but they can coexist more than I think they do right now." (Jamil Zaki, 34:52)

How to Build Empathy: Strategies and Real-World Examples

• Empathy is Like a Muscle—Train It Daily

  • "It’s more about the little habits that you cultivate, but that you deliver on every single day." (Jamil Zaki, 38:24)
  • Loving-Kindness Meditation (Metta)
    • Practice wishing good for oneself, then for loved ones, then difficult people, then all beings. Measurably increases empathy structures in the brain!
    • “Practicing that every day turns out to have profound effects on people’s ability to connect with others.” (Jamil Zaki, 39:55)

• Neuroscience Compellingly Supports Meditation’s Efficacy

  • Zaki, a neuroscientist, notes ancient spiritual traditions “beat” science to these practices—but now neuroscience validates their transformative impact.
    • "The craziest part to me is that I’m a neuroscientist. But it didn’t take neuroscientists to discover this." (Jamil Zaki, 41:06)

• Storytelling as Empathy Technology: The Rwandan Soap Opera

  • After the Rwandan genocide, a popular radio drama helped listeners imagine reconciliation and humanization across deep divides:
    • “People who listened to it… developed slightly more positive attitudes towards the other side… it at least allowed their imagination to wander in that direction.” (Jamil Zaki, 44:32)

• Contact & Personal Connection: Tony, From Neo-Nazi to Empathy Advocate

  • Real-life: Tony’s exit from white supremacy began with fatherhood but accelerated only when a Jewish life coach treated him with empathy and compassion, not enmity.
    • “Dav instead showed him compassion. He said, that’s what you’ve done, but it’s not who you are. You’re better than that. I see you.” (Jamil Zaki, 48:37)

• Personal Practice: Zaki’s Own Empathy Gym

  • Childhood as the only child of divorced, culturally different parents forced him to flex empathy as a survival and relational tool, becoming a “bridge” between worlds. (28:45)

Actionable Takeaways, Exercises & Resources

• Daily Practices

  • Small, repeated efforts build empathy—start with awareness, loving-kindness practices, or small acts of reconnection.
  • Zaki offers free "kindness challenges" on his website for anyone wanting guidance. (50:08)

• Self-Awareness Is the Volume Knob

  • Noticing when you’re burning out, over-identifying, or becoming cold is key. Self-awareness allows you to “dial up or down” your engagement. (38:05)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Zero-Sum Thinking & Dehumanization (Empathy vs. Tribalism):

  "When we start to think of situations as zero sum, when we start to believe that every victory of yours is a defeat of mine, we actually lose opportunities to find win-win situations..."
  (Jamil Zaki, 01:00 & 31:27)

• On Malleability:

  "Just like being physically fit... we can work to develop ourselves into more empathic, more connected people."
  (Jamil Zaki, 12:30)

• On Emotional Empathy Burnout:

  "Emotional empathy is the type of empathy that wears us out most quickly. It’s the most associated with burnout and it’s actually not always the best way to help another person."
  (Jamil Zaki, 26:03)

• On Affective Precision:

  "If you have a really precise language for something, you can experience it more precisely. And that’s part of why I think it’s so important to have a very precise understanding of empathy..."
  (Jamil Zaki, 24:33)

• On Kindness as Strategy (not Softness):

  "Empathy is actually a vital skill that allows us to accomplish a lot of our goals..."
  (Jamil Zaki, 12:30)

• On Practice:

  "You don’t have to go and volunteer for a month… it’s more about the little habits that you cultivate, but that you deliver on every single day."
  (Jamil Zaki, 38:24)

• On the Rwandan Radio Soap Opera:

  "[It]... allowed their imagination to wander that in that direction [of peace]."
  (Jamil Zaki, 44:32)

• On Personal Change (Tony’s Story):

  "Dav instead showed him compassion… that was just shocking to Tony… he then co-founded this organization called Life After Hate..."
  (Jamil Zaki, 48:37)

Timestamps for Core Segments

• [02:03] – Why empathy and kindness require “fighting the trends” that divide us
• [05:39]-[09:40] – Evolutionary roots of kindness and cooperation
• [16:57] – Definition & varieties of empathy
• [19:23] – Empathy vs. Sympathy: Why the distinction matters
• [26:03] – How emotional empathy leads to burnout; the importance of compassion
• [28:45] – Zaki’s childhood as an “empathy gym”
• [30:49]-[34:52] – Empathy and tribalism: why we must reconcile them today
• [38:24]-[41:06] – Training empathy: daily habits, loving-kindness meditation, neuroscience
• [42:25]-[46:33] – National healing through storytelling: Rwanda’s radio soap opera
• [46:49]-[49:50] – Tony's story: contact and compassion moving someone out of hate
• [50:08] – Zaki's resources and actionable exercises

Resources & Where to Find Jamil Zaki

• Book: The War for Kindness (features stories and practical tips)
• Free “Kindness Challenges” and exercises: warforkindness.com
• Social Media: @Zakijam (Twitter & Instagram)
• Lab: Stanford Social Neuroscience Lab – ssnl.stanford.edu

Tone & Atmosphere

Conversational, earnest, and gently challenging, Tom and Jamil create space for nuance—recognizing how empathy can be both a source of strength and vulnerability. Stories and science are balanced, actionable advice is grounded, and the sense of personal investment from both host and guest is palpable. No “softness” in kindness here—it’s framed as something to be trained, sharpened, and actively wielded in service of self, community, and humanity.

Final Thought

Empathy isn’t just a virtue; it’s a survival skill and strategy that must be honed. In a fractured, polarized world, learning to cultivate empathy—without softening your sense of self or your boundaries—may be one of the most practical, courageous things you can do.

For further exploration:
Try Zaki’s daily exercises, reflect on your own "empathy gym" moments, and consider how you might build a more precise and resilient empathy muscle—starting today.