B (2:48)

Yes, Said I don't want it and I don't need to hurt him to win the fight. Because I felt compelling based on he's a warrior, he's a tough guy, he's lighter. He previous fight against a Dutch guy who is very mean and dirty and poke his eye with the finger. And he was hurt and he won this fight after about a battle of 30 minutes or 40 minutes fight. And then he fought another big wrestler who's also. And then he ended up in the finals with me. It was an eight man tournament and my training partners, my people say, oh, you have to kill this guy, punch him. I said, I don't have to be violent on this guy because I'm not intimidated by him, the opportunities based on striking. So I will be gentle because I believe I'm more technical than him and I can win. So that's what I did. And this was a very interesting because Japanese are very particular in observing details, moral details, personality, ego, you know, brutality. And after that match, the press recognized my kindness and the spirit of the true samurai, which was not exactly overpowered. You know, you just do what you have to do in a loyal and nice battle.

A (4:24)

That was the thing that I found so interesting in your whole journey. And even when you ask your brothers and cousins like, what are the things that made you so special? You hear that idea of spirituality a lot. Like he really understood his body. He understood like the transcendent nature of the fight. And seeing that, the honor of that and that for you, fighting seemed to be connected to something else. How do you conceptualize fighting? Because there were times where, I mean, you've said many times, I am prepared to die, literally die in this fight. So how does the same guy that's prepared to die to protect his honor say, I don't have to be violent to win this fight.

B (5:04)

Yes. Because for me, I was never prepared myself to be a fighter. I was not seeking for elements to win an opponent. I was representing jiu jitsu, you know, I was not seeking for learning box or learning elements, to just be prepared in all the corners to defeat my opponent and I event to make money or so I was there to fight for free, to represent the art, to just acknowledge the fact what I'm being practiced is a legacy from my family, which brings a technique which enhances the weaker one in a fight to give possibilities. So I was focused on representing the family, representing the style. With this being said, you pick just a fight, but if you get any achievement, if you want to buy a car, if you want to get a girlfriend, if you want to buy a house, if you want to get a new job. Whatever endeavor you focus on is somehow a challenge, somehow a battle, somehow you have to use martial arts, you have to use the ability to. Because martial arts give you tools. The tools are connection base, deflection, strategy, emotional control, the capacity for you to visualization and other elements. So if you want to buy a car, you have to use a strategy the same way you use to to win a fight. You have to see how much you have to put in the car or everything else after that. So basically, in order for you to achieve happiness, you have to be strategically correct, you have to be capable to control emotions, you have to be focused, you have to be perseverance. Nothing coming easier for free. So. And happiness is always changing. What make you happy today, 10 years from now, it's not going to be the same thing. You're going to have different goals, different expectations. So in order for you to really feel happy, you have to be present, you have to have a goal. My goal always been representing my family and that's make me happy to go in a challenge situation, to represent my family, to be able to, to bring everything I got in a positive mission in my.

A (7:47)

You said that being born a Gracie put a lot of expectations on you. You fought in no holds barred tournaments, which is important for people to understand. You fought where people would show up at your training facility to challenge you and show up to hurt you. And how with all that expectation, with so much physically riding on the line in so many of these fights, how did you control your mind? Like how do you get control of the field?

B (8:12)

Yes, I think what's crucial for me was the deep understanding. All my practice, all my talent, all my physicality is not going to be enough. All my thinking, all my emotional control, all my strategy is not going to be enough. All my surrender, all my capacity to accept death is not going to be enough. If they come in separate, I think we have to in order for us to grow as a spiritual warriors, no matter if it's physical or just theoretical, your growth to facilitate your life, to conquer things, to be happy, you have to have a good unified body. In terms of body, mind, spirit, you have to understand your physicality, you have to understand your mind, you have to understand your spirituality. Because those three things combined make you feel powerful. How I could engage in a fight, a serious fight like that, with no time limits, no weight division, no rules, basically no mouthpiece, no cups, no so you basically go for an unpredictable situation. How I could go just by betraying with a guy 60, 70 pounds heavier than me. So just being prepared, just being talented is not enough. Just be able to focus and be strategically correct is not enough. I have to have the spirituality to say today is a great day to be in a battle. If I have to depart today from another, from a different dimension, I will be grateful to get here that far. So I was accepting death in order to be comfortable in hell. Because how a fireman can leave home, disregarding the possibility he can be the last day, because he can be and try to save a kid in a building and die. How a police officer can leave home without knowing the possibilities he may have to get shot. If you don't realistically believe on those possibilities, you should not be a police officer, you should not be a fireman, you should not be a fighter like myself. In that kind of perspective of unpredictability, being an athlete, being a sport like a judo or mma, which has rules, has time limits, has weight divisions, those are pretty much predictable. It's a sport very interesting, a very brutal, a very contact, a very aggressive sport, but it's still a sport. Martial arts transcends that. Because martial arts, I have to feed my students with unpredictable situations for them to start to realize they have a chance when everything go dark, when everything goes like if I have a knife against you, so I don't know what to do. So pay attention, calm, just put your hand here. So I start to build up confidence, I start to build up situations where the guy will feel I supposed to be dead here, but I have a chance. So building that windows of opportunity, windows of chances. I've been creating myself as a confident in possibilities. So I'm not going there to lose or to compete. I go there to preach or to do what I know and be sure I gonna win. So in my mind was no defeat, was just victory. And that's it. Because I believe what I do is perfect.

C (11:59)

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A (15:52)

Now what makes that so interesting is that I know at. I think you were 14ish. You were in a fight, you had kneed the guy in the face and you said he just spit his teeth out and was still ready to fight. And you were like, that was so troubling to you that at round break you were like, I don't want to go back in. And your dad pushed you.

B (16:13)

Yeah, that was my first professional fight. I was 19 years old. The guy was 30 something. Oh, he has 120 fights and four draws. So 120 victories and four draws. You know, he was never being defeated. Wow. And my father pulled me to. I was crazy about representing and he kind of received a call from the manager of this other guy and he set up a fight. I said, no, I'm sorry, I don't have nobody to fight. And then I said, dad, please pull me in, pull me in, pull me in. I said, I have a kid here, 19 years old. And the manager said, no, master, this guy is professional. He's a very tough guy. And as the guy tried to take my. My father out of the deal, my father got excited because he felt like, oh, I gonna have to put this kid to prove himself. But he's good, he can handle. So he set up a fight with me with this guy, his name is Zulu. And I was there to fight the guy. And he have a trademark move which comes like he starts and then he block himself to don't get punched. He get close to you, put one hand between your legs and lift you and throw you back on the floor. Like, it's like a move he always does. As he approached that, I was quick move myself back and hit him with my knee with the best hit I could ever possibly think. And in my mind I said, I win. The fight for sure was a knockout. And after this, he just shook his hand, speed of tooth and ready to perform more. I said, wow. So that's taken me out of my comfortable zone in terms of nothing is what I expect, right? And the fight goes on for the. Because it was 10 minutes rounds, unlimited number of rounds. So when the first round stops, ends, I was dead tired, full of his blood, and I was crawling to my corner and I said, dad, there's no way I cannot go back there. And my dad, not even listening to me, he says, oh, you're doing great now. He's worse than you now you're gonna kick his ass and this and that. Said dad, I'm serious, I'm just dead here. I cannot go. And I start to argue with my dad and my brother Halls throw me a bucket of ice and water in my head. And then the round bells again. And I went to the fight and like my dad said, I beat the guy in three minutes because he was already tired. I could get a good position and choke him out. And I noticed my worst enemy at this point was my own mind playing tricks on me. Tell me I don't have enough. Tell me I was tired, tell me I'm going to lost. So my mind was completely against my purpose and I felt like I could not let this happen ever. So after that fight, I make a. Statement in my spiritual in my mind. I said I'm not going to quit anymore. I prefer to die than think I have to quit. So since then I already creating an element of I'm going with 100% and if I fail trying, so be it. But there's no quitting, there's no expectations, there's no oh, that's got harder and stuff. So based on that I bring myself mentally to a next level was an obstacle which to jump that obstacle I have to see life different after that.

A (19:56)

Were there things that you could do to cement that so that you knew that you would actually rise to that in the moment?

B (20:02)

Yeah, visualization. Because in the warrior arsenal we have different tools. We have physical tools like talent, mobility, strength, coordination techniques, leverage angles, timing. But if you're talking about mind, we have different tools, visualization, emotional control. In the spiritual side, we have hope, we have faith, we have patience. Those elements, they give you chance of letting the situation cook in a slow burn and see how it goes. Because if you're impatient, if you don't have the hope, if you're not believing yourself, sometimes you get caught in the middle of your chores without you know what, what. But if you fade, you're going to find the light, you're going to find the hole, you're going to. You have the hope things are going to do well. So you become smoother even in the bumpy rides. So I start to feel like my growth was depending of this growth. Not only physical, not only mental, but also spiritual.

A (21:14)

Yeah, I find this warrior spirit, cultivating the mind, getting yourself to a place where you've rehearsed. Like if I'm in this situation, this is what I am prepared to do. I'm going to go all the way. I'm utterly intoxicated by it. Like I find this when I think about what does it mean to be a man. That's part of it for me. Like just that you. It doesn't have to be fighting, but it does need to be that warrior spirit, that there's something that you're so committed to that you'll go all the way. In the book, you talk about a moment where this really got put to the test, all of this stuff together. Hickson, it almost seems impossible to believe that it's one person, but the time that I think it was a Japanese fighter shows up at your school and fish hooks you. Yes, walk us through that story because in the book you detail it so well and I was like, oh my God.

B (22:05)

Yes. The situation was after I become successful in Japan in the MMA scenario, professional wrestler in Japan is big, is huge. But professional wrestlers, they have fighting backgrounds. They coming from judo wrestling, catch catch can striking box. So they tough fighters, but they fix fights. And I was invited to fight under their arena. And I said in the magazine I could not ever fight their champions and stuff, even though the rules are good because they supposed to be fixed fights and doesn't give me legitimacy. So winning or losing there plays no role on my realistic view. And I said that, and I said, I'm welcome to bring those fighters to the real arena, which has rules which are for real. And I hear nothing. And then a couple of months later, the number one guy was challenged before changed the scenario for the number two guy, which was mean bad guy, like the, the villain of the, the whole scenario, you know, one of the big villains of the wrestling world. And he said, I want to go to, to Los Angeles, I want to kick your ass. I'm going to beat you. And my friends, Japanese friends come. Oh, angel said, he coming to fight you and going to say. And I could not say nothing about it because I'm not sure if he's coming, I'm not sure when he's coming. So I keep living my life naturally as nothing happened because I could not be prepared for I don't know when or what. Eventually one day I was sleeping in my house because I don't teach the morning classes, very early morning classes. So about 10 o', clock, my instructor called me and said, hickson, we have a couple here, wants to talk to you, some Japanese guys. And immediately I imagined the fighter was there to fight me, said, okay, I'll be right there. And I was with my like pajamas and stuff. And I get into a car, my son was going with me. So I give the camera for him, for him start to become familiar with the camera. And I start to tap in my hands before I get on the freeway, you know, to get there ready to fight. And I get there, my academy was in the alley. So soon I get into the alley, I saw a van full of Japanese reporters with cameras and stuff. You see a crew, a filming crew in there. And then I get. I pull in, I get. There was a couple, a very tall guy. Mr. Gracie, how are you? I said, oh, how are you doing, sir? Very, very well dressed. I'm president of the ufo, the federation there. And I wonder, because I want to invite you to fight in Japan. I said, man, I told you this before, I don't want to fight in Japan for you guys. Yeah, but you also mentioned you could fight for free if the guy coming to you said yes. And I come here because I expect you to be the fighter. He said, yeah, but the fighter is outside. And then I realized the fight was outside with the crew. Can I pick him up? Can I call him? I said, yes. So as the guy approached, going out to pick up the fighter, this is.

A (25:35)

Like out of a movie.

B (25:36)

I said to one of my students, which is also a bouncer, and I said, man, stay on the door, please. Let the guy, the president come in. Let the fighter come in, but keep the press all out. Don't let the guys come in. And that's being said, the guy come in, the fighter come in. And then the guy was all kind of looking ugly, like, look at everybody like this. And I said, limon. Limon is my instructor. Said, limon, get a waiver for Mr. Sign the waiver, because if somebody gets hurt, it's just a waiver to be signed here, us. And then Limon gave it to him, the waiver. The guy looked at the waiver like this. And then the president called me and said, Mr. Gracie, that means if you don't sign the waiver, you're not going to fight immediately. I felt like a double trick that. Because if I say no, he has to sign. He could leave and tell I'm scared, I'm afraid, or I was quitting, whatever, said, no, no, no, forget the waiver. Throw the waiver out. He coming to fight, come over, let's fight, man. And then the fight begins. And I felt his approach was he want to hit me hard on the face. You know, his base, the way he's positioned himself, comes more towards the striking mode than actually grappling. And based on that, I kind of play myself a little dummy for him to approach when he go for the punch, I deflected, grab him under the waist lift, throw him on the floor, mounted, and I start to beat him up. But in my mind, different than a regular competition was not about defeating the guy and make him tap. Because if I make a clean victory and make him tap, he can stand up and say nothing happened. So I have to show physically the damage. So my intention is not just put him to sleep or squeeze his arm. It was just punching him in the face. And after some punches and break his nose and make him very bloody, he turns back and I choke him out and put him to sleep. And as he's sleeping face down on the ground, I stood up and tell the press could come in. So the press start to come in and take pictures of everything. And the president of the his friend tried to cover his face to don't show, he's all bloody and stuff. And then the guy said to him, hey, now get out, let's clean his. So he shows his face on the so and then two days after this guy coming to my place with a samurai helmet and offered to me as a gift sharing was a lack of respect for him. And he's apologizing and he was, you know, feel like I was honorable and gracious on defeating. So he was giving me a gift and left.

A (28:39)

Did you live ready to fight at all times at that period in your life?

B (28:43)

Yes, yes. Was no time for preparing. Was just be in shape all the time, be ready to fight anytime, because that's the only thing I could do.

A (28:54)

Yeah, that's what I think makes your family and your style of fighting, certainly in the era where you were the number one. So interesting is that it's born out of being ready for a street fight. It's born out of really being able to defend yourself in a life or death situation, not just in the sport. How were you raised? Your dad seems to be a very unique character. What, what values did he instill in you guys?

B (29:25)

My father was a very special guy because he was very weak when he born. He learned jiu jitsu long before his practice in Jiu jitsu because he was forbidden by doctors to practice his sport. He could not run a bike or run, play soccer because he has verticals. He passed out. He was very tense and very weak physically. And he was learned from my uncle, his older brother, but he could not practice. So when my uncle opened his school on the 1925 in Rio de Janeiro, my father was sitting on the corner for about three years just watching my uncle teach different moves. So he memorized everything. He knows everything just by photograph. And he not exactly fighting because he was forbidden. So in one day, 16 years old, a student come by and my uncle has not arrived yet. So he said for the students, mister, if you want to practice a little bit, I can play dummy for you. I can just be sparring for a little while until my brother arrives. He said, oh, I love to do that. Let's go. So. So my dad engaged with the guy, start to practice and stuff. Half hour later, my uncle arrives. And the student said to my uncle, said, Carlos, if you don't mind, I love to keep training with your younger brother because he's so talented, he's so good, I love him. And that's my dad engaged himself in the practice, but different than normal persons. The choke, for example, was done church choking somebody using their arms. He could not do one pull up, he could not do one push up. So he's weak. So instead, using power from the arms, he developed power from the chest, which comes much more leverage and minimizing the real muscle effort and gives more strength on the leverage of the action. So he starts to adapting himself for the Jiu Jitsu he learned. And we compare Helio Gracie to Jiu Jitsu as Einstein's to physics. He was inventor. He creates things to modify things to adapt for himself. And that's why Jiu Jitsu gets once arrives in Brazil, this kind of special element of more techniques or more softness or more capabilities to adjust, especially fighting from the bottom, which my father could not ever fight from the top. So he developed ways from the guard position, which he has an opponent between the legs, to be able to not only be comfortable against punches and to also submit with triangle chokes, arm bars and strikes. So he becomes very clever on that aspect of fighting. So with this being said, my dad grow as a general, as a. As a new modern view for Jiu Jitsu and make not only his kids, but his nephews parts of a clan. My uncle Carlos always being very dedicated to create a clan. And my father Elio was the guy who was the general for the army. You know, he was more physical, he was more giving talents. And my uncle has more the spiritual guidance, giving more nutrition values for the family, giving more sense of strategy for the accomplishments. So he was the guy behind with his mind open for everything. And my father was the guy who's really bringing the fight, bringing the techniques to the cousins and the family. So when I born, my father was already in his 50s, so I could not have the experience of him fighting, I could not remember those elements. I remember him more older giving my brothers thanks for improving my jiu jitsu or guidance students or talking about the federation talking about the politics behind so I get from him the impression was he's the guy who leads all of us to a better future, to a better representation to grow the family.

A (33:51)

Did he push you guys to be tough or anything like what were his.

B (33:56)

He's very strong on morals. He's very strong on I don't want you guys to fight each other. So whoever is wrong, too many men is in the house. So whatever is wrong is better apologize. Because if you not apologize when you're wrong and you guys fight for that. When I discover who is making the mistake, this guy will pay triple. So it's better you guys arranged. So I was feeling confident to argue my brother got the apple. I was about to get said give me the apple. I was no, no. So I gonna talk with my dad because you're wrong. The guy said okay, take this because he keeps like a moral values, he keeps honesty, he keeps, you know, if you talk the truth, no matter what, you're not going to get punished. If you lie, you get three times more punishment than you're supposed to have. So you did you who breaks this, I break that. So don't do this again. That's pretty much it with not big punishments because I tell the truth. If I lie will be worse, you know, will be different punishments. So we very early understand how important is to be honest. The valuable, the integrity, the capacity for you. Because a lot of what I learned from fighting was in the dinner table, seeing my dad talking about resilience, about, you know, elements he passed on his fight. So I was getting that kind of information and applying on my own life.

C (35:29)

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A (38:59)

Small and weak influence the way that he thought about things like resilience 100% his possibilities.

B (39:06)

He has to develop possibilities outside of the physicality. Fight is physical, fight is brutal. Fight is violent. How a guy who is not physical can be fighter. He has to use strategy techniques, leverage angles, you know. And that's brinka completely different dimension.

A (39:26)

So interesting that he took to that so well that he could just watch it and then be able to do it instantly and then be Able to innovate. It's really pretty impressive.

B (39:36)

Yes.

A (39:37)

Now, is he unique like that or have there been other people that have added?

B (39:42)

He was just genuine. He's just a special character who he not only devote himself fully to jiu jitsu, passionately, he's very passionate about, but he has the coordination and the talents. Sometimes he spend eight months without going to the sidewalk, he spending on the gym, eating, sleeping on the gym, waking up, training, sleep without going to the beach, without going to the bar or nothing. He just spent eating on the school. So it's unbelievable how much passion and dedication.

A (40:18)

Yeah, it's interesting like that. So there's a quote, I forget who said it, Aristotle or somebody. That the only impossible job is raising kids. And one thing I know you've talked a lot about is when you're coaching or being a parent, that you have to first assess what that person is like, what they need, and then give that to them. Where did that insight come from?

B (40:37)

Yes, one time I was start helping my brother to teach as a dummy for him. So he put me lay down Hickson, John Mount. So I was playing the dummy for the student practice whatever they had. So I was there and he gave me a little tip at the end of the class for me to buy ice cream, whatever. So I started making little money from my brother and I got my dad and said, dad, what I should do to be the best teacher? He said, if you want to be a good teacher, you learn the choke, you learn the arm lock with precision, with details, and then pass through the student and ask him to get tight here or there. So give him the details of the technique. If you want to be an excellent teacher, you have to capture what the student needs to learn. So with that advice, he gave me the sense I cannot be just a jiu jitsu teacher. I have to be a psychologist too. Because I have to approach a guy who stands insecure in a different way than approach a guy who is just lazy and completely off. So the whole tone of the class, the whole inspiration, the whole thought process has to be different from one to another. I cannot teach a girl as I teach a boy. I cannot. Their aspirations are different. So based on that sense, I start to realize jiu jitsu has a lot to do with the mindset, with the approach, because we all need to learn something from martial arts. But sometimes you're not aggressive, you're not mean, you're not a competitor. That doesn't mean you don't need to learn martial arts. Martial arts is not Exactly, Just to win.

A (42:24)

So mindset is something you and I were talking about before we started rolling is being a common denominator among people that are successful. What elements other than emotional control, which we've already talked about, resilience, we've talked about. But what elements do people need to be successful of mindset?

B (42:43)

My developments, my mental, spiritual and physical developments, they could reach a plateau if I was not involved with breathing the way I am. It's very interesting, but the only organs are capable to give and receive information are the brain and the heart. Other than that, the body just works, but doesn't have influence. If you get a bad email, you immediately gonna get upset, you're gonna get claustrophobic, you can get emotional, you can get, you know, depressed because your brain tell you you're not happy. Sometimes you feel something but doesn't hit your brain, hit your heart and immediately you feel emotional, you feel sad, you feel whatever because you felt in your heart. The lungs are the only organ who are capable to have a connection, a direct connection with your brain and with your heart. When I started training breathing, I start to felt a completely different dimension of death and my sensibility and my capacity to feel myself deeply. Because normally in average people born, people get slapped on the butt, start to cry, and then they feel like they know how to breathe, they can survive. And then they learn soccer, they learn fighting, they learn baseball, they learn sports, surf. And they live based on the same breath doing things. But the real learning of your breathing system is to learn how to maximize your ventilation or hyperventilation to cope with the activities you plan to do. The perfect breathing system give you hyperventilation, give you capacity for you to relax. And sleeping mode give you capacity to be sprinting for longer, not only for one breath take. So wherever you need from your body, even from your spiritual guidance, you have to drive by a perfect breathing system. The breathing allowed you to find yourself deep into your system.

A (45:26)

What's the thing in your career that you're most proud of?

B (45:31)

Oh, man, it's hard to say because it was just a continuous mode of successful elements. I'm undefeated. I have 400 over 450 fights.

A (45:44)

Jesus.

B (45:46)

I never win anyone by points. I always submit or knock out. So my career is very successful even for my retirement. Maybe the most thing I'm proud of was after my biggest loss in my life, which is losing my son with 18 years old. I was confused for a while, about three or four years in the dark, not feeling appetite for training, for surfing. Nothing really appeals to Me, I was putting a lot of time on my garden on my hillside, just meditating and thinking. Kind of a little depressed, but I allowed myself to get deep in the dark, you know, I allowed myself to hug a stone and go to the lake and stay deep on the. Thinking about suicidal, thinking about drugs, thinking about, you know, what's the purpose of life? Being a very much weak and a purpose, you know, crying and not feeling like, no, that's okay, I'm strong. Because if you try to hide emotions from yourself and try to show everybody, okay, you're just making a patch which is not working. So I have to feel, like, weak and completely vulnerable. And then I get there. And in order for me to get out of this hole, one day I was meditating in a little platform I did on top of the trees for my son. And I was there and I thought about my dad. And my dad always saying, and everything bad happens to you is always a good side of it. And everything good happens to you is always a bad side of it. So nothing can be only bad or only good. And I start thinking about what could be good based on my son's departure. And I realized time for me was always something. I was in charge about it. I could fight at will, I could teach at will. I could. I raised my kids. I could my dad. I want to talk to you. Okay, not today. I'm going to surf. Tomorrow we talk. I was able to be in charge of my time and my will freely. And I realized with Hoxhol's departure, we may never not have tomorrow. Tomorrow may never happen. And I start to understand how important for me was appreciation of today. Our conversation. Today is the most important thing for me now. Nothing can be better than this. For my attention, for my focus, for my passion for the audience, for you. I want to be present here. I want to be fully so when this is over, I will think about what's next. So being present make a big difference. And thinking about my son, thinking about that, I give you a glimpse of how I change. If I go in for a fight in Japan now, and I'm in the freeway or a seminar or something, a show or something, and my daughter called me, dad, I need to talk to you. I said, what's happened, sweetheart? Yeah, because she start to cry, I will stop my car in the freeway, talk to her, try to resolve the problem, get into the depth of the situation, be calm. Whatever I have to say, how long it takes, I will be there for her. And after I turn it off, I will See if I still able to get the flight, if my trip has to be canceled, if whatever is going to happen after, I will deal with. But I'm not going to say, sweetheart, I go to Japan, I call from there by, I never will do this anymore. So my appreciation for time becomes different and I'm grateful for Hoxon departure because now he gives me a completely different perspective of how I should live my life and how I appreciate my time and how much I kind of tight the knots for not getting loose gaps and be just not concerned about things that matter. Today, my day is based on what I can do best to make my best day. Today I have to walk the dog. I have to do things which are. I feel complete if I do what I have to do. If I leave my dog without, I will feel like, wow, man, I let him down. So I want to do my best day. No matter if he's walking the dog, no matter if he's helping somebody to go to Costco to make bite stuff, no matter if I have to fix my roof, whatever I have to do, I'm focused and grateful and happy about it in my way. So the appreciation for those elements coming from my understanding and maybe was maybe the biggest change, the biggest progressive, positive move I did in my life since I know myself, was exactly that kind of positive change. And then after I understood that, I think about Hoxon, I'm happy. I thinking about my possibilities. I'm happy and inspired with the moves I do through Jiu jitsu, through my federation, through my. So my life changed because what was my biggest loss becomes my biggest sign of how I should do to have a happy life.

A (51:27)

It was really heartbreaking reading in the book about that. I didn't realize that you had lost your son. When you think about that, like the spirit of, you know, a kid growing up in your family and how hard they have to fight, how do you, like, rein them in? You have a really interesting philosophy about how much you can guide and then at some point you have to let them be them. How do you do that? When you know like that it, you know, tomorrow isn't guaranteed? Like, that seems so difficult.

B (52:01)

Yes. My father has 10 kids, so not all are champions, not all are fighters. We all involve in Jiu Jitsu, but in the sense of education we bring. They bring Jiu Jitsu to my attention. They bring the sport Jiu Jitsu to my attention. They bring the philosophy of martial arts to my attention. And I could be a doctor, I could be a police officer, I could be Other things, but it was underneath pressure, which you grace, you're supposed to be a fighter. So I know what my direction was, but I have to recruit my courage, my desire, my sacrifice, which a lot of members of the family doesn't feel like. Whoa, man. Too much training today. I hurt myself. I'm not gonna go back there next day. So it's a different element to combine. The experience I have was the information I get with the dedication and the compromise I put myself in. So it's a dual thing. Nobody could make me what I am if I was not focused and passionate about it. So my dad make his put his part on it, but also I put my part on it, my commitment. One example is I was 12 years old. I was wearing orange belt, practicing in a group class with adults. They have fun with me, they not hurt me or anything. So I was there playing. And then one time I fly a strong man. Not tough guy, but just tough. Just strong. And he got me in a headlock. And headlocks technically are not exactly to make you tap. It's a position who is very uncomfortable, but you can resist. I was tired. I was a kid. The guy was very strong. And I tap. And I get so upset because it was claustrophobic. It was not about the pain or the submission. It was about the agony. And I get panicking and I tap. And I was upset. I cried a little bit. The guy said, oh, what's your okay, kid? No, I'm okay, thank you. And I went home with that in my mind. And I get home in Rio de janeiro, like summertime, 120 degrees, humid. It's like unbelievable. I lay down myself in a carpet almost like that. I lay down myself on the corner of the carpet like this. And I tell my brother halls to roll me up like a burrito and just take me off here in 10 minutes. Leave me 10 minutes here for me to get claustrophobic in this feeling. So I was enrolling the carpet all dark, smelling bad. Get claustrophobic at first. And then eventually I started thinking about the beach, the seagulls, the wind, the breeze on my face. Start to get calm and I start to take the panicking out of my system. And then he unfold me from there. In the same year I did three more times the same experience until I felt like was just another day in the park. Just do this. And I. So that shows my commitment with my own fears or with my own. I was upset because I get panic and I was trying to fix my panic on the carpet in Home was not a doctor, was not a pill, was not a conversation, was just brutally stay in the hole until you get killed. You know, it's like. So that's kind of commitment I have in a very early age to be the best I can be. And for me, breathing was always not a problem, but it was something which when you get panic, you panic, man. Everything, all the strategy, all the thinking goes to the drain. So I was focused on not get panicked. And then I learned how to breathe. And this was the missing link in my life. The breath, the breath.

A (56:11)

I saw you also do like cold water exposure. It seemed like you did a lot of things to make yourself extraordinarily uncomfortable.

B (56:18)

Yes. And functional strength. I never learned functional strength. I invent functional strength in my mind playing with elastics, which I never heard about. I bought elastics from diving. The ones you put on the.

A (56:31)

You just had an intuitive sense that it would work.

B (56:33)

Yeah, it had to be a consistent resistance. I have to move, but with resist. So I put in elastics, I put in light weights and start to do like crazy. And also the cold water. Cold water is a very important treatment for me because if you're thinking about something, who going to scare you the most is get burned alive. Second is get cold water because giving chills from immediately, like, I don't like that. It's like putting a cat in the water. I hate that. Every touch, every comfort, the uncomfortable is superb. You're just not gonna get killed or gonna get hurt. But mentally, you could not be in a more stressed situation than be in the ice. So I felt that will be a good learning ground for me. So I was using the ice bats.

A (57:32)

How'd you get introduced to that? Like you're doing stuff back in the. I mean, are we talking the 80s? Like, yes, you're doing this stuff back in the 80s. I didn't hear about this stuff until like 2015.

B (57:43)

I mean, this is crazy because I was seeking for. Things were giving me chills and emotions. And I love to play with nature because nature is unbreakable, nature is stronger. So surf for me plays always a double role. First, the sport of surfing, the delightful element of playing the ocean. Second is the energy of the ocean, is how the ocean moves. And you cannot fight the ocean. You have to go into the channel. If you get caught, if you lost your board, you cannot just swim back through the channel. You have to get pounded on your head and go from the waves. So you have to have a. Is a ways to do it, to deal one time I lost my board and I had very heavy surface in the very late afternoon. I was by myself in the ocean and I lost. I thinking about the last set I wouldn't get. So I got one more wave. So when I was about to get the set, I get £1 in the head and I broke my leash and I was already out there getting dark by myself with the channel pushing me towards the ocean and I was by myself. So I have to be calm enough to just go through the ocean and then eventually go sideways along the beach for about an hour and 10 minutes and then go back to the ocean, back to the sand. And I arrive on the sand about 9 o' clock at night. Thanks God for being alive and lost my board. But that's giving me a sense of calmness under pressure. So I was not intent to do that. But as I put myself in that situation, I could use this as a positive experience.

A (59:39)

So Rickson, you're now moving into a different phase of your life. Do you feel as alive now as you did when you were a champion or do you think about it differently?

B (59:50)

No, I don't feel better, but thankful I'm not feel worst. Because what I could do very graciously and very motivated and inspired for me was changing the focus from if you imagine yourself in a pyramid, I always focus on the top of the pyramid. Efficiency and competition and proving Jiu Jitsu is the best. But for the last 25 years or so, Jiu Jitsu has been growing based on and becomes more competition aspect. Tournaments and submission tournaments, grappling tournaments, and they become, I feel like they losing the martial arts spirit becomes a game without that spirit. And now for me, my goal is not only not to force or to show details for better fighters, but to give a more accessible base for people who are not fighters. And they need something to really grow. Because if you put yourself in perspective of how much you can grow from Jiu Jitsu practice, I tell you you can double your perception of yourself in terms of understanding your gauges of tiredness, of sharpness in your mind, possibilities of strategy, calmness, emotional control, everything you have. You don't put a test because you're not playing Jiu jitsu. When you start to play, you start to understand the physicality, the techniques, the movements. And that gives you a perception which I call invisible power. You start to develop a better sense of balance, you start to develop better sense of deflection and not get punched or how to respond to. So based on that learning process, you start to become more Confident, you start to humanize yourself. Another big problem I see today is the fact that technology, robotics, Internet dehumanize you. We become half humans and half this universe. We live here so you can be anywhere, you can talk with anyone, you can see any tree. So everything is there. But it's not the ability to shake hands, to look somebody in the eye, to ask for a job, to talk with a girl, to to be present. Human, you know, we are humans, we have to eat, we have to connect relationships. So dehumanizing doesn't make you strong in relationships, doesn't make you strong in your presence. Jiu jitsu, just the hug, just the breathing together, just give you that sense of presence, the sense of connection, which is very important. And you not feel how much is important for you, but because you're not, sometimes you feel like you spend your time without feeling a hug, feeling the sweat, feeling something which is very. So Jiu jitsu can also help you in that matter of supporting your life, not as a fight, because today this is winning fighting, this is win without a fight. I can give you tools for you to become more peaceful, more connected with yourself, more sensitive to others, better in relationships, better in your sense of believing in yourself for endeavor. And you're not going to, you don't have to spar with nobody. The concepts I change in my teaching progress now is before, in the first month you're going to learn some techniques and you. And the first month, and the end of the first month you already sparring. And that sparring session can be very positive for some warriors, but can be jeopardizing a lot of guys who are not designed to fight, in what way.

A (64:04)

Does it jeopardize them emotionally?

B (64:06)

Yeah, because if you come in to learn techniques and you amazed by, oh, I like the tech and you come in and I put you to spar with a 17 year old, brutal, aggressive, with nothing in the head. And he coming to grab and so hurts and discomfortable and agony. And you're gonna say, fool, I don't want that in my life. The guy is stupid. So if you get too soon involved with the actual competition aspect, jeopardizing your learning process in martial arts, which I believe the first year, right now, I'm sure the first year of practice has to be learning, practicing with a training partner, not with an opponent. The opponent you're just going to face, not in the first month, not in the second month, but you're just going to face. When you say, yeah, I feel like I want to learn a Little more how to get a belt. And so now you're going to start to Tom, go here, John, come here. So you try to see who falls on top and then you start the competition. But you have first to get a deep understanding of the purpose and the ideas. And you may never like to compete. And you're going to say, you know what, Rickson? I want to keep the fundamentals program, which I feel in shape. I feel the knowledge, I feel the possibilities I add to myself. But I don't want to compete. You know, I just don't like it. Because the average attendance for a jiu jitsu school those days is for every 10 students who come into the class, new students, eight will leave in less than six months.

C (65:49)

Wow.

B (65:49)

So that drop off means that it's too hard too soon. You know, if I keep under my attention, I can keep a student passionate about for the first two years easy. And he's getting shape. He gets learned how to do the things, but he don't have to aspire.

A (66:10)

Hickson, your wisdom is incredible. What you've learned from fighting and just life in general is really breathtaking. The book was amazing.

B (66:21)

Thank you.

A (66:21)

Your life story is truly unbelievable. It is inspiring in ways that I can't articulate. Where can people connect with you? Where can they buy the book?

B (66:33)

My new site now is Rickson Academy. The book is all over is like a big release in the four corners of the world, Japan, Europe, us, Brazil. So it's not going to be hard to find.

A (66:49)

And what's the title for people?

B (66:51)

Breathe. Because breathe, I think was the. Is the initial process of enlightenment and performance and understanding and spirituality. If you cannot control your heart, if you cannot control your brain, you're in bad shape. So breathing is a big inspiration for me and was the turning point of my evolutionary process.

A (67:14)

Yeah, the book is really amazing.

B (67:16)

Thank you, my brother.

A (67:17)

Thank you so much for coming on.

B (67:18)

My pleasure, guys.

A (67:20)

Trust me, you're gonna wanna read the book. If you don't already know who he is, you are gonna be absolutely blown away. The book is part memoir. It's all mindset. It's exactly what he did to become arguably the greatest fighter of all time. When you get into like real fighting circles, this is the name that comes up over and over and over again. The documentary Choke. One watch of that and you will understand exactly why it's. It is a career that's truly unparalleled. And I think you guys will get a lot out of reading the book and spending time with him online. It's really, really extraordinary. And speaking of things that are extraordinary, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care.

C (68:05)

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A (69:07)

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