How To STOP F*cking FIGHTING, Communicate BETTER, & Make Your Relationship LAST | Tom & Lisa Bilyeu

Summary

Podcast Summary: Impact Theory with Tom & Lisa Bilyeu

Episode Title: How To STOP F*cking FIGHTING, Communicate BETTER, & Make Your Relationship LAST | Tom & Lisa Bilyeu
Date: February 20, 2023

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Main Theme / Purpose

In this candid, in-depth conversation, Tom Bilyeu and his wife and business partner, Lisa Bilyeu, reflect on what it really takes to make a relationship thrive in the modern world. Drawing from their 20+ years together, including a particularly tough 2022, they break down the frameworks, mindsets, and practical tactics that allowed their marriage to survive and evolve under extreme pressures. Covering everything from commitment, shared vision, identity, gender roles, and modern mating crises to tactical conflict resolution, they reveal powerful insights and actionable strategies for anyone seeking to build or sustain a meaningful partnership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Foundation of Lasting Relationships

• Commitment as the Backstop:
  Tom explains that the root strength in his marriage is a deep, intrinsic commitment—viewed as the "backstop" when things get hard.

  “It's easy to be in something when it's just fun and games, but it becomes harder to be in something when the times are hard. And if you don't have a value inside of you that says, hey, I'm committed to this thing...when it gets hard, I'm going to find the solution.”
  (Tom, 01:19)

• Divorce as a Last Resort:
  For Tom and Lisa, commitment doesn't mean staying at any cost; they agree not to live a loveless or abusive marriage, but work through tough times with every resource before considering separation.

  “We've never said that, like, so the word divorce is off the table for us...except for we also say it absolutely is an option if...we've done the work...Neither of us want to live a life of unhappiness.”
  (Lisa, 03:55)

2. Compatibility & Shared Vision

• Building a Shared Narrative:
  They emphasize the importance of having a shared, compelling vision for the future, and periodically checking to ensure this vision still overlaps.

  “Shared vision of the future, understanding how to diffuse an argument, well, building a shared narrative…They just started working towards it and getting around the table...”
  (Tom, 05:34)

• Evolving Ambitions and Priorities:
  Both reflect on the tension between growing as individuals (especially as Lisa stepped into entrepreneurship) and growing together, and note how their ability to communicate honestly helped them navigate changing “orbits” in their relationship.

3. Navigating Identity & Role Evolution

• Changing Gender Roles and Narrative:
  The Bilyeus discuss how their roles shifted over the years and how both partners must participate in rewriting the narrative of their partnership, especially as societal norms shift around gender and ambition.

  “I love you, I just don't want to clean for you...It's not a reflection of how I feel about you, but I just want to do this.”
  (Lisa, 17:22)

• Orbit Analogy for Relationship Stages:
  Tom introduces the “orbit” analogy to describe progressing through different relationship dynamics: from being intoxicated with love, to orbiting around each other, to orbiting around children/business, and how transitions can be rocky and require conscious redefinition.

  “Whenever there's a shift in orbit. This is why so many people get stuck…That in any one of those moments is a highly dangerous game.”
  (Tom, 20:11)

4. Modern Mating Crisis & Hypergamy

• The “Tall Girl” Problem and Dating Dynamics:
  Tom explores societal patterns such as hypergamy (women dating "across and up" in intelligence/resources), and the unintended consequences for modern dating:

  “As you educate women, birth rates plummet…You take this pool of men and you narrow it down to a sliver...you're getting into the tall girl problem..."
  (Tom, 25:27; 35:45)

• Men and Women’s Needs—The "Cheat Codes":
  Tom shares gender-based observations about fundamental relationship needs—women need to feel loved and supported (with “beautiful and safe” as the cheat code); men need to feel loved and appreciated (with “powerful” as the cheat code):

  “They want you to celebrate them for all the hard shit that they're doing for you...And then the cheat code is only one thing. Just make them feel powerful. If you make them feel powerful, oh, my God.”
  (Tom, 32:12)

5. Communication Tactics & Conflict Resolution

A. Frame of Reference Problems

• Understanding Worldviews:
  Most marital issues arise from conflicting “frames of reference,” which are made up of values, beliefs, rules, routines, and assumptions about how the world works.

  “95% of all marital problems are frame of reference problems.” (Tom, 54:55)

B. Argument Resolution Systems

• Rules of Engagement:
  The couple has developed tactical rules for conflict:

  • Disclose insecurities early
  • Focus on solving the problem, not “winning”
  • Take breaks to cool down if emotions run high
  • The “baby” ritual: either partner can end a conflict by saying “baby,” prompting immediate reciprocation to break emotional tension

  “In our marriage, you were under a moral obligation. No matter how angry you are ... you are obligated to do that back.”
  (Tom, 61:25)

• Strategic Agreements:
  They consciously choose what rules to accept or reject (e.g., “never go to bed angry” doesn’t work for them; instead, they ensure love is reaffirmed even in anger).

• Don’t Weaponize Insecurities:
  The ultimate trust is in never using your partner’s vulnerabilities as ammunition:

  “Don't say it. It’s one of those, like, there...are things you don't want to say. And the way that we've always thought about it is don't weaponize the other person's insecurities.”
  (Tom, 65:50)

C. Owning and Discussing Triggers

• Self-Awareness and Ownership:
  Both Tom and Lisa describe the necessity of owning their own triggers and honestly labeling emotional reactions as such, even when they can’t immediately logic through them.

  “I wish I was better at articulating my feelings right now. But I’m not. I just feel triggered...So please, just let me walk away and then we'll come back.”
  (Lisa, 75:17)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Commitment:
  “There are a thousand things you wanna try before you get to: I'm just committed and I'm gonna keep pushing through...There are going to be times where you hit the backstop. And I don't think most people have commitment as a backstop.”
  (Tom, 01:19)

• On Relationship Tactics:
  “You need to build the foundation and the agreement that you can approach things even when it's difficult and say, hey, I'm feeling X, Y, and Z.”
  (Lisa, 10:14)

• On Hypergamy and Modern Dating:
  “If you want to become the hardest, core possible version of yourself, my advice, do it in a way that is different than your man.”
  (Tom, 34:12)

• On Powerful Conflict Ritual:
  “So on three, ready? One, two, three. Baby.”
  (Tom, 61:07)

• On Emotional Triggers:
  “I know this feels right...I wish I was better at this right now...I just feel triggered. And so what I need to do is...just walk away because I'm feeling triggered. I know this won't go anywhere.”
  (Lisa, 75:17)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:19]—Commitment & backstop concept
• [05:34]—Building a shared narrative
• [09:48]—When shared vision becomes misaligned (business vs. marriage)
• [17:22]—Changing household/gender roles & narrative tension
• [25:27]—Mating crisis & hypergamy explained
• [32:12]—Relationship “cheat codes” for men and women
• [54:55]—Most marriage issues are frame of reference problems
• [61:07]—The “baby” ritual for breaking fights
• [65:50]—Never weaponize insecurities
• [75:17]—Owning and articulating emotional triggers

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Actionable Takeaways & Closing Insights

• Explicitly clarify your commitment to each other—decide together what’s never negotiable.
• Build and revisit a compelling, shared vision for your future.
• Recognize and accept identity shifts and evolving roles; be open to rewriting your narrative as a couple.
• Develop standard “rules of engagement” for conflict—communicate, take breaks, and use rituals to reset emotional states.
• Never weaponize your partner’s vulnerabilities in an argument.
• Own your own triggers and communicate them openly—even (or especially) when you can’t fully explain them.
• Audit your goals and values regularly—write them down clearly and check for alignment with your partner.

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Episode in a Nutshell

This episode is a masterclass in conscious, intentional partnership from two people who have built not just a marriage, but businesses and personal transformations together. The Bilyeus show that real relationship success isn’t about avoiding hardship, but about building robust systems for communication, self-awareness, and aligned ambition that allow for ongoing growth—together and individually—even through the hardest seasons.

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For full context and more tactical details, listen to the entire episode. This summary highlights the key structures, memorable moments, and methods for listeners eager to level-up their own relationship dynamics.

Transcript

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[Tom Bilyeu]

What's up, guys? I am beyond excited for this episode with my incredible wife, Lisa Bilyeu. Besides being my number one, Lisa is also my business partner and the host of Women of Impact. I joined Lisa on Women of Impact for this incredible episode to reflect on how, even after 20 years of marriage, 2022 was actually one of the most challenging years we ever faced together. We share in this episode why we have been able to survive that kind of pressure, the kind of pressure that would break up most couples. I hope you guys enjoy listening to this episode as much as we did recording it. And if you do, please leave a review on the podcast. It really is the best way to support us so that we can help more people just like you reach their full potential. I'm Tom Bilyeu, and welcome to Impact Theory. There is nothing better that life has to offer you than a shared life. And this is the modern dating crisis. It's easy to be in something when it's just fun and games, but it becomes harder to be in something when the times are hard. We were trying to boil a relationship down to the fewest number of big ideas because you can get lost. Like, there's so many things like, as you're really trying to, like, communicate to somebody, oh, navigate this way, and rules of engagement, like, you go down a rabbit hole. But when we were doing the exercise of, like, what are the fewest things? We came up with our list, and it was, I think, four things. And I was like, there's something that's missing. And commitment was the final thing that felt like it deserved its own bucket. And it has played out to be an incredibly powerful idea, which is it's easy to be in something when it's just fun and games, but it becomes harder to be in something when the times are hard. And if you don't have a value intrinsically, it can't be externally put on you if you don't have a value inside of you that says, hey, I'm committed to this thing. And so when it gets hard, I'm going to find the solution? I'm not just going to cut bait and run, which is exactly how we've navigated all the difficult things that we've been through. Whether it was the first year of marriage, whether it was when you transitioned into being an entrepreneur, which was a big shakeup in our relationship, or whether it was last year at the time that we're filming this, where I was completely consumed with stress and work and it was very daunting to get to the other side of. But through all of that, it's always been that we have a commitment to each other and to the marriage. And we've always said we would never live in a loveless marriage, we would never live in an abusive relationship. But shy of that, and we always felt like we controlled that, that we were committed, we were in this. And so I didn't have to look over my shoulder and wonder if you were gonna be there. You didn't have to look over your shoulder and wonder if I was gonna be there. And so, yeah, commitment is like, if I were going to boil down, what's the backstop? Because there are a thousand things you wanna try before you get to. And I'm just committed and I'm gonna keep pushing through because you do want it to be fun and games and as joyful as it can possibly be, as often as it can possibly be that. But there are going to be times where you hit the backstop. And I don't think most people have commitment as a backstop.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I love the idea of backstop. That was really good. And the commitment part is definitely the thing that we have said, like, we're going to be committed to try and find a way. And we've never said that, like, so the word divorce is off the table for us.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We don't even joke about it.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

We don't. It's like Voldemort, except for we also say it absolutely is an option if we feel like we've tried everything. We've worked our asses off, we've been committed, we've gone to therapy, we've done the work, we've both put in the effort. Neither of us want to live a life of unhappiness. And so that was one of the things that we decided on, that we'll be committed to this marriage until we believe that the thing that we need to do to actually make ourselves happy is to be a part. And now I can't even imagine a world where that would exist. But knowing that also allows us, I think, to make sure that we never get trapped in a relationship that ends up not being good for either of us.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I know exactly what would have to happen for us to separate. And the interesting thing about that is because I know the category of thing, it feels very avoidable. So the category of thing is that you become two different people that are no longer compatible. So the question is, can you figure out what makes for compatibility? It's far deeper than just being in love. It's deeper than sexual attraction. Those are both incredibly meaningful things. But shared vision of the future, Understanding how to diffuse an argument. Well, building a shared narrative. In fact, this is something like this. I'm going to look back on this. These are things I'm thinking of now.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And if you don't want to actually, as you say them, break them down. Because I think these are really freaking useful.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'll start with building a shared narrative. So building a shared narrative. I did an interview once, and I forget the guy's name, but he was on the precipice of divorce with his wife. And they sat down and they said, what is our future? Like, what are you into? What am I into? They had had kids and they had just gotten completely consumed by that. That and work. And so it was just like they weren't a married couple anymore. And so they sat down and they decided to journal, like, together at the same time. Like, what? What is our future? And they went through it all, and there wasn't a single piece of overlap, except it was like something about freedom. And so they were like, ooh, okay, what's this? And they created a shared vision around one bullet point out of, like 20 that overlapped. And they said, okay, how do we explore freedom? It wasn't exactly that, but it was very close. And they were like, let's take our kids out of school. I think she had to quit her job. He was an entrepreneur, and so it was like he could run it with the Internet. They said, let's pull our kids out of school and sail around the world in, like, some small ass sailboat. And so they were like, yes, that sounds awesome. We're both incredibly excited about it, but we have to save up 15 grand or whatever. And so. But now they had this shared, what Tony Robbins would call a compelling future. And it was shared. And so they just started working towards it and getting around the table like, what have you done? What have I done? Oh, my God, this is so exciting. And by having that shared, compelling future, they were able to be moving in the same direction. So taking it back to the initial question of like, what are all of these things that if they fall apart, even our relationship would fall apart, is you become two people that no longer make any sense together.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

As you were talking, I realized it's super important. That was, I think, the thing that we were disconnecting over in our last year, in the last year in 2022, because you were having a really strong business experience. And in that, you were growing and learning, but you were working 120 hours a week, but you were priding yourself on the fact that you were. You were willing to work hard.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's a very dangerous way to. I get it.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

You are priding yourself that you won't give up and that you were there for the business and that no matter what, you were the type of person that. That you are extremely resilient, where you're going to just keep going even when things are hard. And so if that means you have to work 120 hours a week, that means you have to work 120 hours now.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But I thought that was stupid and knew I needed to wrap that up as quickly as I could.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yes, but while you're on that path, you were still willing to do that. And for me, I knew that there was a line between how much I was working in my health, and so I was starting to back off more. And I was like, this is becoming more stressful for me, not less stressful. So the older I get, the more, let's say, quote unquote, successful or financially secure I get. I feel like now I'm not living in my true self and I'm working harder, and I'm like, why am I working harder than I ever did?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I push on this and find out if we actually. So, shared vision. I want to tease apart from poor execution. So if we stopped having a shared vision, which would be news to me, and we would be learning that in real time on camera, which is fine, but. So our shared vision, as I think of it, is to build a modern media company that positively impacts people around the globe. Just to be broad about it, my execution was poor in that period of time, which is why it was important for me to say, I knew that was dumb. I had gotten myself into something that I needed to get myself out of in an honorable warrior like fashion. Some of that resonates with you and some of it doesn't, but that will fall into the execution bucket. But we had a shared vision still, and I think a shared vision that we both still find compelling.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yes, but I think that your cost is higher. Than mine.

[Tom Bilyeu]

My willingness to suffer is.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

That's what I mean.

[Tom Bilyeu]

The cost I'm willing to pay.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Correct? Yes. Thank you. And so actually, that's interesting to talk about, because even though we had to share the same vision and we still wanted the same future, the strategy and approach was very different.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You know what I just realized? In the way that I summed it up, I have highlighted the problem that we had last year. So my shared vision that I just articulated was only about the business. And that isn't true for our entire vision of our shared future, since both of us prioritize our marriage. The problem with 22 was that I was working so much that the marriage took a backseat, and therein lies the problem.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But, okay, so let's pass this apart. That's actually really clear. So when we started to talk about it, we had built a foundation over the last 20 years where we are able to say the hard things to each other. We're able to be honest with each other and upfront. So that's super important for anyone watching that you need to build the foundation and the agreement that you can approach things even when it's difficult and say, hey, I'm feeling X, Y, and Z. And that's how when you're working 120 hours, I absolutely was feeling like I was losing my husband. I was feeling neglected, and it wasn't a needy thing. And I had to process that myself. But I realized it wasn't needy thing. I actually didn't need to spend time with you or I wanted to spend time with you for the health of our relationship. And in that discussion, you said some really powerful words to me. If you don't mind sharing those, I

[Tom Bilyeu]

will find my way back to you. I knew that my execution was poor, and I knew I needed to let you know that I knew that it was poor, that I had a plan to get back to you. And that is certainly in the modern era of our life, is the thing I'm most proud of. Like, it is so easy now for me to point to something and say I recognized that I was doing something that was not leading me to the results that I wanted, which is a very clinical way of saying it was bad for our marriage. It's funny. I talk in such a specific way.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So people. This is how we talk when cameras aren't around.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. No, for real.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So even this realization was because we talk like this in our personal life and.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. No, I don't think people would believe us unless they saw us in our personal life. And There are even times where I'll say to you, this sounds really clinical, but just because it's for maximum clarity.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So

[Tom Bilyeu]

I knew that I was doing something that didn't make sense. It wasn't leading me to the goal that I wanted, and I knew that I needed to say it to you, and then I needed to execute. And I am extraordinarily proud of the fact that I did execute and come out of that. But then that ends up creating this disconnect between the two of us.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So before we get to that, I'm moving ahead. No, this is beautiful. And I really want to take people through it because if anyone at home is listening, I want them to see how we handle things and then ideally, adopt these types of strategies in their own relationships, they're able to really get through it. And so, first thing is, you have to build that foundation where you give each other permission to say the hard thing, even when you don't want to hear it. You both have to agree that your relationship is the most biggest priority so that you both have the same North Star. And then because we had done that, I was able to come to you and say, hey, look, I'm not seeing you anymore. I barely. I'm not feeling the connection. So that's important. You didn't push back and go, what the hell? You're needy. You. Because we'd agreed that I was the person that had the insight into our connection quicker than you do. And so we put in all these steps, and then in all these steps we've done multiple times, and we've been doing for years and years and years. And we really refined it to the point where I honestly thought after year 20, it's like, oh, my God, we got this shit. But the truth is, is that you're never done, and that you always need to improve your communication or at least be willing to. And in that moment, it showed me your willingness to discuss it more, go further, to acknowledge what I was saying, not dismiss it, and put your rules up.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think that's one of the most important things, as you were going, I thought, must remember if she doesn't say this, to say. But that's exactly right. You can't be looking for why it's the other person's fault. You have to be looking for, what am I doing wrong? And so in those, when you came to me and said that, it was like, yeah, 100%. Now, when your ego's tied up in that, like, if I believed that I was a good and valuable person because I'm an effective husband or whatever, I'm going to be in trouble if instead I value myself for basically reading the data and seeing if what I'm doing is actually working and so striving to actually be more effective. And if what I value myself on is the willingness to accept what I'm not doing well and get better, then when you tell me that, I'm like, oh, I have a chance to feel really awesome because I get to set my ego aside where most people can't and go, yeah, I actually am doing something wrong. Thank you for pointing it out. And now I can adjust. But when people value themselves for being good, right, Smart, better, faster, stronger, a moment like that happens, it's an attack on their sense of identity, which people really can't handle. Like, the older I get, the more things I encounter, the more I realize, do you know for real? For real. When I go into business meetings now, a lot of times I'm thinking, what's their identity? And how do I say this in a way that doesn't break a part of their identity? And I don't think people do that very often. And so they will back people into a corner unintentionally. Because an identity and narrative, it's literally the same phenomena. And if you don't understand that when you break somebody's narrative, you break their identity like, they will fight to the death to repair that. You just. You can't take it away. And so I see this a lot. In fact, when you became an entrepreneur, it was a game of narrative. So we had to change everything from, I'm the entrepreneur in the family, I'm the leader, I'm this, that, and the other. And you're now forcing a rewrite of our entire narrative. And the reason we were able to get on the other side of that, this wasn't the phrase that I used. But I want you to have whatever narrative you want. Obviously, you have to live into it. You have to make it real. So I don't want people to confuse narrative with fake narrative is the ideological construction you put around something to explain it to yourself. You're not trying to lie about the phenomenon, you're trying to explain the phenomenon. And that is the narrative in which you live. But that narrative becomes your entire frame of reference. And so I've been around people who don't create an accommodating narrative. And so now the people that they're interacting with, it could be your kids, it could be your spouse, could be your business partner. They don't Know where they fit in. Like, they don't understand their relationship to you because you've created a narrative that isolates them or keeps them out or whatever. And so, man, this is really interesting. Talk about something I'm putting together in real time. Husband starts losing weight. Wife becomes wildly insecure. Why? Because now you're changing the narrative about who we are to each other. The husband's like, I'm a fit person. I do what I need to to take care of my wife is like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I'm the fat one. Narrative breaks, changes. Like, so things like that are really. That's a really good example of a narrative when people don't even realize they're living in a narrative.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So can we keep going down this path? So even with the narrative, let's talk about our roles in our relationship then. Because you were that your narrative was, I'm, you know, the patriarch, the man of the family. I'm, you know, in traditional roles. I'm bringing home the bread, things like that. And I was a stay at home wife.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Thank you. Bring home the bacon. But you make the bread. I'm gonna need somebody to weigh in on this.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Sure. You make the bake. Yeah, that's.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Maybe I just had it all wrong and I was bringing home the bread. There's a lot of confusion to the

[Lisa Bilyeu]

person that doesn't eat carbs and only eats bacon. So you're bringing home the bacon. And I was very traditional. I was looking, I was taking care of you, washing your clothes, cooking for you. And so we had a very specific, specific narrative. When I came to you and said, hey, I actually want to be an entrepreneur, I didn't have those words, but that's basically in essence what I wanted. The thing that I was the most fit, fearful of is that your narrative would turn into I don't love you anymore, and that's why I'm not taking care of you. So that was really. I was very aware of how to, like, what are the words I have to say to him? Because I don't want him to take away this message. And so I kept saying, like, I love you. I just don't want to clean for you. I love you. I just don't want to do this. And it's not a reflection of how I feel about you, but I just want to do this. And so now I'd love to actually hear what that narrative was for you to change.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's interesting. So going back to what I was thinking about at that time, honestly, I was just like, this doesn't feel good. This really sucks. I wasn't like super clear headed about it in the beginning. It was very emotional. It was. I don't like the way this makes me feel that you aren't now orbiting around me in that way. And that like there is a dynamic between a husband and wife where it does feel. So I've never used this analogy before, so I'm thinking through this in real time. But there is a way for a husband and wife to exist where the wife orbits around the husband until they have kids and then they both orbit around the center, which is the children. When the orbit changes, you're in a very risky position. And this is why a lot of marriages disintegrate once they have kids, because the orbit really does change. Or so in the beginning it probably looks something like this. We're both orbiting around the sun. That is our love. And it's a wild intoxication. And then we settle into a life together and one of them orbits around the other. So my time dictated the movements of our life. So when I had to work, when I could take time off, it all dictated the flow of our life. So whether people like me saying that you orbited around me or not, just functionally, I don't know what else you would use.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And just to be clear, it was an agreement. It's not that I also think of it being less or more than.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, no, like that was just the

[Lisa Bilyeu]

dynamic that we both agreed was going to be the way because we wanted a shared future together and we decided that was the path. A lot of the messaging out there for women is like, you don't have to follow him. It's like, it's not. I followed you. We chose this together. And I feel good about that. I feel good. In fact, I feel good that we chose that I would follow you. In fact, that's a better way of saying it. And now it's kind of like if a woman follows a man, then they're seen as weak, incapable.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I make a really inflammatory statement?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

If they're blindly following, they may be weak and incapable. And so this is where this gets freakishly nuanced. The phrase that has always resonated with me since I first heard it in my Big Fat Greek Wedding. Because it, it put words to something that I already knew. That I was the head and you were the neck. And as soon as I heard that, I was like, oh my God. Like, your ability to get me to pay attention to what you want me to pay attention to is Unreal. That always felt very true to me that you had enormous power and influence in our relationship. That this was not me exerting power or authority over you at all. That's becoming the narrative that, like, as people look backwards, they're like, thank God we're finally able to throw off the shackles of these men. And this is where I think people are going wrong. It wasn't that you were orbiting around my schedule and all of that, but I certainly didn't treat you like you were any less or that what you wanted was any less important. To your point, we had agreed this is what we're trying to accomplish. You go off into the working world and you're going to help facilitate that. And so it isn't that you orbit around me in the way that you do what I say or that I'm in control or anything like that. It's an. It's a time influence about how we construct our day and our time. So anyway, it starts with you're both orbiting around love. Then it becomes. You settle into a life and one is orbiting around the other. And then it usually becomes kids. And you both orbit around the kids whenever there's a shift in orbit. This is why so many people get stuck in. Well, they date, they fall in love. Oh, my God, this is the one. They break up, they date, they fall in love, this is the one. They break up and their friends start going, oh, my God, here we go again. They can't make that transition out of orbiting around love to orbiting around each other and how you spend your time. And they're really not going to be able to make the transition to kids. So that in any one of those moments is a highly dangerous game. So we really were good. Really good. Like, we could do a masterclass on how to go from love to orbiting around one another at the time. And just to finish that, we talked about it when we were at the most intoxicated. We're like, remember, this doesn't last. It's wonderful. And we should enjoy every second that we have of this legitimately cocaine like effect of being in love. Where you're like, there's no way other people have ever felt like this ever before. It's all consuming. It's going to change. And it did for us. And it became something really profound in the way that people talk about. Until you have kids, you don't know. I will just tell the people that are in that initial burst of fiery romance, if you haven't migrated into that really deep where you've lived through ups and downs and picked each other up and just fought fights together and all of that until you've done it. You can't imagine how rad that is. So we transition. Well there when we go to the transition of. And now we're orbiting our professional lives around one thing and our marriage around another. It's like. And then our marriage is like this like self revolving thing that from a time perspective revolves around the business that we're building together. I mean that's like. It starts to nest really complexly. We need to remember the things I'm saying right now because us asking about like how do you balance your ambition and your love? This analogy is how people get tripped up because you have this, your marriage here. But it really does become. It begins to orbit around this other thing from a time perspective, but not from a priority perspective. It's so complicated. So anyway, you have to manage both of these. Well, we didn't know this at the time and so we were changing an orbit which was very disruptive. Now how do you change an orbit? You better change your identity, you better change your narrative. And so we had to step back and go, what is this new narrative? Because we used to say, and this was both identity and story. You're the CEO of Billieu Enterprises. So there's the business that generates money and then there's the spiritual center of our lives which is us together. You run this because you needed to have a thing where you had a story of leadership because. And this. The greatest leaders know when to follow. And so I think, I mean you're on camera so you tell me. I think we both agree that if you had to say who's the leader in the family, it would be me.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah. And I have no, you're the right person for the job. And I think that that's also a super freaking important thing to really just hammer home.

[Tom Bilyeu]

God, we could.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I don't know. It's not derailing though. I think these are the important things. So if you have something profound, by all means, go for it because this is the. I feel good about it. Why? Because it's the right thing for our relationship. I don't need to be. I don't need to be the one. But I want to be involved in the decision making. The decision says in my opinion, that you are the right person. And so because we have a goal, we have a shared goal. How do you get to that goal? Let's actually sit down, figure out who the right person is to lead. We both agree it's you. And so I think that's a big part of why we're successful.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, I agree. But this, what you've just touched on, I think is the absolute gravitational center of the mating crisis. I don't have the stats memorized. I need to memorize them. But everybody at home listening, humans in the western world, certainly we are having a legitimate mating crisis. Birth rates are plummeting, sex rates are plummeting, marriage rates are plummeting, There's a fatherless crisis. Like, I mean, the stats are gnarly. So what's the gravitational center of this problem? And I think it's this. It's something called hypergamy. Now, hypergamy itself isn't the problem. It's how it's going to manifest in what I'll get to in a second. But first, let me define hypergamy. Hypergamy is that women, this is universal. Women date across and up on two dimensions. Intelligence, wealth, or intelligence and access to resources, if you want to think of it that way. So when you educate women, the birth rates plummet. Doesn't matter where in the world you run this experiment, if you educate women, the birth rates will plummet. Now, I'm a fan. I love women getting educated, educate the life out of them. But there's no utopia, only trade offs. So as you educate women, birth rates plummet. Why? I'm going to guess it's very complicated. It's no way can you bring it to one dimension. But for simplicity of being able to discuss this, I think the big one is this idea that women go across and up. Now, if you in intelligence and wealth, what's hiding in there is finding the right person to be like, yeah, look, you don't make all the decisions. I don't lead all the time. There are things you're far better at than I am. And when you're the right person to make the decision, I follow you. And I have no heartburn over following you whatsoever. Whatsoever. But you, in traditional female fashion, were only willing to date across and up in intellect. Now, on balance, I think I've been very clear in words and action that you and I balance out to be 100% equal. But I'm very good at decision making. I used to joke with people all the time. Find yourself a good Greek girl whose father worked a lot.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Because what your dad modeled for you was the dynamic of he was the leader of the family. And everyone in the family, I think your mom included, would say he was the right person for the job. She had chosen somebody who was better at when all things are considered on balance, was better at decision making. He could think through the variabilities of a problem with a higher degree of efficacy than she could. Not that your mom is not a wildly intelligent person. She is. And she's amazing in her own right. This is why I say on balance, you are my equal. 100%. We are together, a whole, truly apart. I consider myself dysfunctional without you. I've told this story so many times. I was worried for a long time that you would never get the credit in our relationship that you deserve. You are now, I think, getting that credit anyway. Unbalanced. You're my equal. I believe that to the core of my existence. But I also believe that we dialogue about everything. But if I'm like, hey, hey, hey, for real, I see something you don't, we should go down this path. Life has shown us that we're better off betting on me when we can't agree in those types of situations. Okay, so.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And I can take pride in knowing that I was on board that I bet on you. Correct that I take pride in that. Not like, what's the word? I don't take that as an insult to my capability.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Agreed. You're an extraordinarily capable woman, but hypergamy type behavior led you to find somebody where you're like, I'm gonna fight you tooth and nail when I disagree. But yeah, like I actually think that you're right more often than I am you because you. We found each other when we were so young that we don't. We didn't experience what a lot of people are going through. And I said this to you the other day, you better pray to sweet baby Jesus that I don't die. Because do you know how hard it will be for you now to find somebody that has more access to resources, wealth, and can on balance, make better decisions than you? Do you know how small that pool will be?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So explain that you think that I would.

[Tom Bilyeu]

The number of men that make over a hundred thousand dollars. Not the finite, vanishingly, it's tied. Because what is the number one predictor of your lifetime financial income?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

What's the number one predictor?

[Tom Bilyeu]

The bad news is it's zip code. So technically I should ask what's the number two? It's iq. So if you find somebody that's making dramatically less money than you either they've deprioritize it. So there's not like a one for I wouldn't care. What do you mean?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I don't care if they're making less money than me?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Uh huh. Can I give you another stat?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So you don't value them less, but would you be upset if they couldn't get an erection? Oh, upset, no, get the fuck out upset. So I'm not talking once for them at first.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Okay. You didn't say that they gave me an erection. Okay, yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So I lost an erection with you once because the guy had a phlegmi cough upstairs. So it's happened. I'm just giving the real shit right now, 100%.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But try this together. This is so fun. I just don't know where you're going.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So if it happened a lot, you would be disappointed. I think at a minute.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Sorry, I would.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So the reason I asked, because I want to get to the punchline, the reason I ask, let's say that you don't value guys for how much money they make. Guys who make less than their significant other are 50% more likely to need erectile dysfunction medication. Because woman. What do you need to make a man feel Powerful? Yes. Yes, powerful. And if you're making more money than him, and trust me, whether it should be or not is irrelevant because you

[Lisa Bilyeu]

know people are freaking out in the comments right now.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes, I'm telling you how the world is. I'm not telling you how the world ought to be. We are, we are slaves to our biology, my friend. And it's just real that if you can't make a man feel powerful, he's 50% more likely to be on erectile dysfunction medication.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

All right, so what are the things that a man needs to feel powerful and.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, so now we're nesting another idea. So you've got, you need to make women feel. You need to make them feel loved and supported and safe. And then you're getting into the cheat code. Then you need to make them feel beautiful and safe, loved and supported. Table stakes. Beautiful and safe. Cheat code. If you want, like the world's happiest marriage now for guys, you need to make them feel loved and appreciated, not supported. Guys want to break their back carrying weight for you. If one of you is going to have to be cold, they want to be the cold one. If one of you has to starve, they want to be the starving one. Women misunderstand men fundamentally. They want to suffer for you. So when they say, I did all of this for you, and you say, no, you didn't, you did it for you, you have fundamentally misunderstood your role as their significant other. You have to look at them be like, yes, you did, baby. Even though secretly, like, what the fuck? So let them carry a weight for you. Let them freeze for you. Let them go hungry for you. They want to be appreciated. They want you to celebrate them for all the hard shit that they're doing for you. They're wired for it. You're not going to be able to talk them out of it. And then the cheat code is only one thing. Just make them feel powerful. If you make them feel powerful, oh, my God. So anyway, bringing it all back, hypergamy, over and up. That's what women do. That's like your modus operandi. Now, as you become bad bitches and you start making more money and you get tougher, all the things carrying hard weight, freezing, starving. Yeah, bitches.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah, buddy.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We got this motherfucker. Now. You take this pool of men and you narrow it down to a sliver. And I'm not saying you can't do it.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

They don't feel powerful anymore.

[Tom Bilyeu]

They're not powerful, because now you've won. You're doing the toxic male thing. And when I say war, language, let's go be aggressive. And I. I was standing up in front of an audience and I was telling them, I'm doing this because this is how I think about. I imagine myself holding a sword, covered in blood. I am drenched head to toe in the blood of my enemies, and I have vanquished them all. Now, if you write in the comments that I'm a toxic male, congratulations. You are getting men to be softer as you're becoming harder. They're needing erectile dysfunctional medicine because they're really becoming soft. It's just cool. Be the hardest bitch you can be. I want. What did I say to you? I want you to be whoever you want to be, but God damn it, I have to outperform you to keep the type of relationship that we had. So now I'm like, holy hell, I've really got to become something. And so my message is, ladies, if you want to become the hardest, core possible version of yourself, my advice, do it in a way that is different than your man. So if you're going to go be the hardest core entrepreneur in the world, and you know that women date over and up, you're going to be going after a man that's, like, more elite than you. And this is why women should be whatever they want. I want to be very clear, whatever you want. I want people to have the life they want. I want women to have their best life ever. But there's no Utopia. There's only trade offs. And so that trade off comes with if you're trying to be a hardcore entrepreneur. It's what Chris Williamson calls the tall girl problem. If you're a six foot girl without heels, you're effectively dating professional athletes. Because now women want someone. I think the number is 8 inches. I'm almost certain they want someone 8 inches taller than them.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Wow.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do you know how hard that's gonna be if you're 6 foot and you want someone 8 inches taller than you?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So it's just like in Back to the Future that you were saying about height where they switched out Michael J. Fox, the main actor with Michael J. Fox. And then they realized, oh, crap, the woman they had cast was actually taller than Michael J. Fox. So didn't they go around the entire set and ask all the females in

[Tom Bilyeu]

the crew, the studio people that weren't involved in the film?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But yeah, they basically asked, do you buy this relationship? Everyone was like, no. A girl would always, most of the time, date someone taller than her. So they actually had to then recast the female opposite, Michael J. Fox. That's fascinating.

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[Tom Bilyeu]

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[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So here we go. So now you're in the tall girl problem where, okay, guys have to outperform me. Right? That's what women are going to say. Word. So you're only going to go for guys that are crossing up. Now the problem becomes men are not wired for commitment. So men are wired because their semen is cheap, so they can spread their seed far and wide. So as they become more and more successful in the dating pool. And the data bears all of this out. So as men become more successful in the dating pool, you get hyper successful males at the top. They're very good looking, they're extremely successful. So they're intelligent, they're industrious. There's a few other traits that they have that allow them to be successful. And so they're now unwilling to commit because they can go from girl to girl to girl. Because the women have lopped off, like the bottom 80% of guys. They're not. Because they're below them. They're not across or up. So now 80% are just gone. Because women are out. Women are. Women are amazing. They're just as smart as a guy. They can be just as industrious, all the things that are a guy that they can be. Plus they mature faster. So now you lop off 80% of guys because they're below you. And as you do that, you get 80% of women effectively competing for 20% of the guys. You're now training those guys. So they're very successful. Especially because women are lowering the threshold for sex. It used to be marriage. It's now somewhere south of that. And so with the sexual revolution happening, at the same time that women are getting hyper educated, at the same time that they're having kids in lower and lower numbers and realizing that they can be in their bad bitch mode, they have narrowed the group of men and trained them that they don't need to commit to get laid by the next girl. And since guys are basically wired to jump through whatever hoop they have to in order to get sex, if you remove commitment from the equation, you're now in trouble. And this is the modern dating crisis. And at the center of all of that, I think we're gonna find, is that over and up phenomenon that was so fascinating.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

There's one more thing that I very recently just had a guest on my show, and they told me that men don't need to be physically attracted or even mentally attracted to a woman. They can pretty much get hard and have sex whether they're into a woman or not.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so as a generality.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Of course as a generality. And so let's say a 8 out of 10 guy sleeps with a 5 out of 10 woman because he's like, hey, she's here. And she's like, holy shit, I got an 8 out of 10. Now what happens is she now bumps herself up and thinks that she can get most 8 out of 10, and so dismisses all men. That are 7 and unders. And so as they started to explain that to me, going back to, like, I just want to know the truth. Like, I think freaking. I got an entire show to empower women. So you know my heart. But what is the actual truth? So that when we could. So we can just navigate. That's the key. And then everything me and you are talking about now that our dynamic is exactly this. The reason why we've been able to have 20 years of marriage is because when we came to a point where this was friction between us, where I was really stepping into my own, we very much had this discussion. And if we didn't have the discussion, I think we may have been that moment where we, you know, really chipping away at our relationship. And that in that discussion, it was. I feel really great being a badass. I've been insecure, and I don't feel confident. And so being able to learn and grow and practice and feel better about myself is amazing. And so you really supported that. And you love to see me get into my confidence. But you absolutely pulled me aside one day because I was getting hard. And we had what I call one of, I think, the hardest conversation. That again, I think this is the moment where a lot of people would break and split up. But you came to me and you pulled me aside. And you remember what you said?

[Tom Bilyeu]

You're getting too hard.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So you guess. So I was building. We were building Quest. I had developed our shipping department. I had 40 employees underneath me, and a lot of them were ex convicts. And so I knew that I had to get hard. I couldn't be pushed around. And so you said, babe, I totally understand why you're becoming hard. You need to in order for you to gain the confidence. You can't be a pushover. So I understand it. And yet I am in a marriage where I love it where my wife is soft. I love it where my wife looks to me for protection. And so I have to be honest about this part of me. And I think that right now, either guys are not being honest about that part of them. And I do think either some of us women are trying to shut men down because it's. They judge them for saying that. And for us, we just deal with things almost as fact and as truth. And so when you came to me and said that, I was like, well, I could argue. I could try and convince you, no, it's not true. Or I can say what he's seeing is fact and his fact. And his truth is that he wants a Wife that is cuddly, is soft, is nurturing. That doesn't make you a bad person.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I put a word on it? That your audience is gonna fucking hate?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Sure.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Feminine.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I don't think they will hate that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, yes they do.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

No, I think you're gonna have a

[Tom Bilyeu]

percentage of your audience that's really gonna hate that.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I don't care.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But it is true. So it's really interesting to me that somehow it's becoming that the game to play is a masculine game. And I think that is amazing. For women that want to play a masculine game, go for it. You're going to do like, they're going to be women that really do well at that. But I would also say let's make sure that there's a viable social narrative for women that want to play a feminine game, whether that's motherhood or not. It's that there is a feminine expression that we're all like, that's dope. And you're not going to be able to bend culture just by saying it out loud. But I hope that, that I have a feeling that we're going to rebound back into that and start celebrating femininity again in a really hardcore way. But this goes back to that idea of women, go get as good as you can at something that matters to you and that fills you up and that you're just like, this was a life well lived where you're burning it on fire for that statement. But. But if you can find a way to do that where you don't take too many of the men that you want to be in a relationship with and lop them off from the over and up perspective so that like, again, I feel I can say this from a certain safety. I have a wife who is way more masculine than traditionally feminine, and you have a husband that's way more feminine than traditionally masculine. And so my journey has been about getting tough and hard. And your journey has been about making sure that you don't get too, too hard and that you keep a soft gear in there. So having said that, I will say that, hey, there's a reason that masculine and feminine roles have been what they've been for so long. And it isn't by my estimation, that men are tyrannizing women. It's because of all the things that we're talking about right now, like, you can't escape your biology. And so men are wired in a certain way, women are wired in a certain way. And as we sort of medically find ways past this being Able to control your period, being able to control your reproduction, all of that stuff. Then it's like, oh, we're going through this. It's a changing orbit moment. Oh, my gosh. So it's this moment where men and women are changing their orbit and how they relate to each other. And when your orbit changes, then things get really risky from a stability perspective.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But that's where. So as the orbit is changing in the world, that's where I think so much of the judgment is coming from and trapping so many people. Because with me and you, it wasn't like, what should we do? What shouldn't we do? What does the world tell us we should do? It was, oh, you want to be like this? I want to be like this. Oh, hey, this is what's happening. How do we evolve? Like, it wasn't. What's the world gonna say if I say, oh, my God, but I'm soft at home with my husband? I don't give a shit. I was like, do I want to be soft at home with my husband? Yes or no? And does my husband want it? That's all that matters. And so, because I never got trapped and you never got trapped, at least from what I understand, ever. On external opinions, it was always, I want to. Babe, if someone's breaking in, you better bloody believe I'm turning to you to protect me. When we walk up to a door, I love that you open the door for me. And so all the narrative right now is going, well, ladies, if why does a man need to open the door? He doesn't. You don't need to open the door for me. I very much am capable, but I like it and I want it. And I have every right as an individual to ask any person, my husband especially, hey, babe. I really love it when you open the door. If other people perceive that as freaking weak, I don't care, because they're not in my relationship. Every night when I go to bed, I know that I'm lying next to the man that I love who would give his life for me and I would give my life for you, period. So if other people outside think that I'm weak because of it, I don't give a shit. And so I think that's where people are getting trapped. Most men wouldn't have said that to their wives. Most men wouldn't have come up to their wives and, God, look, I understand why you're getting hard, but I actually miss this side of you. And this is what I really love in my wife. And this is really what I want in a partner, most people wouldn't have done that. And so this becomes that. What are you looking for? What type of person do you want to be? Because if you had turned around to me, awesome. So I'm really getting fired up now. If you turned around to me and you had said, hey, I hear you, you want to become an entrepreneur. But that wasn't what I signed up for. I married a woman who said that they wanted four children and they were going to, you know, they spent the last eight years taking care of me. In that moment, I couldn't have hated you. I could only have appreciated that you were honest. And in that moment, all I can say is, is that the life I want because you're honest with me. And if you're holding back, what's going to happen is thus settling, right? It's the death by a thousand cuts where it's like, well, it doesn't matter. Where it doesn't matter. And then before you know it, 20 years down the line, we are no longer communicating on the same page. Because the. You didn't say the thing that you needed to say 10 years ago because you were worried about judgment, about gender roles that other people from the outside or your partner may judge you on.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, it's crazy. This is. This is all really intriguing to me. And when I think about why people break up and then what they do with their next relationship, their next relationship tells you a lot about what they felt was missing in the relationship. And so you get the classic arc of like, husband and wife build something together, they have kids, the kids grow up, and then the wife is like, peace out. Now, what's interesting is that women initiate most breakups, certainly most divorces that we have data on. I would hearken to guess that they do just breakups in general. And that breakup is interesting to me especially what ends up happening is women tend to then stay single and men find somebody younger. Now why do they find somebody younger? First of all, their brain is being squeezed to death on signals of youth and fertility. So that's a big part of it. But there's also like the over and up scenario. They're going to be so much farther ahead in life, have so much more the man, so much more access to resources at that point. So he's going up in sexual market value while the wife is going down. But it's the wife that gets fed up and ends up breaking up the marriage. But utterly fascinating to see that next move play out because all of that, and that was I'm reacting to the hardness. And like, if. Let's say in that moment, we had collided in and we couldn't get over it. And I was just like, yeah, I can't do this. I would have gone. The next person I got with would have been somebody who I'm like, do you have any interest whatsoever becoming an entrepreneur? Because if so, you gotta go, so. Because I would have filtered for that. And so it's very interesting. And I think the reason that women initiate the breakups is because they really come into their own. And as they come into their own, they realize, I don't want to be in this relationship anymore. Going back to what we were talking about in the beginning, if we became two people that no longer made sense together. And that's what happens. The kids grow up, they move out of the house, and the wife's been like, my whole life's been lived for other people. My husband, my kids. Now I'm going to live it for me. And they don't find a way to integrate themselves early. We didn't have kids, and we were able to integrate you. And by integration, I'm talking a new narrative, something that explains why you are the way that you are, allows you to understand it yourself, then to create that space for you to do new things. But I think there's a lot to be revealed in what happens in that classic breakup pattern.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

You said something. I didn't want to interrupt you, but this is something that hit me a lot recently, and I really want to give people actionable tools on what they can go away, like, after this episode and you use in their actual relationship. And so the whole thing about what. I don't know how you. How you phrased it, but men want to feel appreciated and powerful.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Loved and appreciated and appreciated. Table stakes.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Thank you. Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Powerful cheat code.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Okay, So I really want to break these down, especially for the women as well, because it's super powerful, because it. For 20 years, you've been saying pretty much the same thing, and only three or four weeks ago, it really hit me. I'm like, oh, my God. In the appreciated. And so what did you say?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Frame of reference is so brutal. It is so hard to pierce people's frame of reference. Like, you could say something to me for six years, and then one day I'd be like, oh, my God. You were so adamant that I wasn't. I wasn't. You said, I need my husband back, and I could not understand what you meant. When I got really immersed in work, I couldn't get it? And then one day I did, and I was like, God, frame of reference. Anyway, that's a whole nother topic.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Because I felt like we had distanced so much, or you were working so much, I no longer saw you. So I was like, I just need my husband.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But I couldn't understand what you meant by that, which is, I'm sorry, I'm just reinforcing your point that it can be. I was saying the same thing on this topic for a while, but you. It finally pierced your frame of reference.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yes. I can't remember what example did I sell my example.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So the men need to feel loved, appreciated, and then powerful. Chico.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Thank you. So recently it was like in a real life situation. And I have a problem with feeling guilty. I'm sure most women can relate. When you're asking someone to do something or you're bothering someone, or you're asking them to go out of the way. Like, I always feel. I just feel guilty. Especially when it's you, because you're so sweet, you're so kind, you're always doing things for me, and so I just feel guilty. So when you're suffering as the woman who feels like, I really love nurturing you, like I really do, I'm a badass.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But I also love desires to be supported. You assume I want to be supported, right?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So you kind of give the gift that you think that you want. So in you doing something that is miserable, you hate, exhausting, stressful for you, anything that I have input on, I just start to feel guilty because I'm like, I don't want him to feel bad, I don't want to free stress or etc. So I go, you don't have to do that, babe. It is to soothe myself. It's to soothe my own guilt. It's for me to say, you don't have to do it, you don't have to wait out. In fact, that was it. You don't have to wait up. So I had the girls evening. There was a bunch of us. We normally go to bed at 9 o' clock on the dot. It was like 9:45, the girls were still here. It turned to 10 o'. Clock. And you waited up. I felt so guilty that you waited up for me to make sure that the girls got left okay, that all the doors were closed. And I felt so guilty. And in that moment, I wanted to say, but why did you wait up? I didn't ask you to. And I stopped myself because in that moment I realized, you don't want Me to soothe you. You just want me to appreciate you. And so as I went to say, you don't. You shouldn't have stayed up. I caught myself. And I'm like, I'm saying it because I want to feel better about myself, because I feel bad that he stayed up for me. And in that moment, I stopped and was like, this is what he means. And so what do I say? Appreciate. Thank you. So I was like, babe, thank you so much. That was so kind of you. And like, something like, what was it two days after? I was like, you're so sweet of you for waking up. Like, that was so kind. Just so you know, next time you don't have. But I really appreciated it. And you even said, like, you noticed that I had done the flip. But it's so nuanced. Babe, that's such a small little moment that two ships in light can be two. Two people can be two ships in light where they're passing for 20, 30, 40 years and never getting to this moment of realization that you've been trying to tell me for the last 20 years.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. People cram ideas into their worldview. They just do. Like, when I say, even now, you have a hard time remembering that I'm saying, women need to feel loved and supported.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

How did you hit me? Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And men need to feel loved and appreciated. Most people just think those are the same phrases. Oh, you just use a different word. No. Like, there is a world of difference. But it is so hard to get outside of your frame of reference. 95% of all marital problems are frame of reference problems. You just.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Can you break that down a little so people understand? And then how you can identify when it's a frame of reference problem and then how you actually discuss that with your partner. Because sometimes one of the biggest things that I got when prepping for this interview was, we want to know how you guys argue successfully. Because most people just explode, and then before you know it, their relationship is broken.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so frame of reference is made up of probably five things. So values, beliefs, rules, and routines. That's like the Core 4. But then there's one more thing, which is your. You could nest it under beliefs, but it's how you think the world works. And so a lot gets lost in the how you think the world works. And so we've all made shorthand rules of thumb for how things work. Do it all the time. Your brain is a prediction machine. So you've got, like. Even now, when I pulled the sleeve of my shirt, I expected the cotton to feel a certain way. I expected the amount of friction to be a certain amount. And if anything had been violated, my brain would have immediately gone, something's wrong. But if nothing's wrong, I don't even notice. So you have this worldview on a gazillion things, who you think your partner is, what you think your partner ought to do. Okay, should they pay for dinner? Not 100% Great example of an ought versus can or is they ought to pay for dinner. And so you've constructed all of this not realizing you think you've simply identified the truth of the world, but you haven't. You've made value judgments, you've decided to believe certain things. And this is why people collide, because they think the other person's an idiot. Because, well, the world is this way and it should be this way. And you're acting in a way totally contrary to this. Like, when I see the left and right go at each other, I want to laugh or tear my hair out, I'm not sure which. But it's like if you understood that evolution gave you the two opposing views because it's only in the friction that a society moves forward that it's pathology on both sides. And so you need that dynamic tension. So anyway, but they can't get outside of their worldview and because of that they just assume the other person's a moron. So you and I said very early on, when two intelligent well meaning people collide, they have a different base assumption, goes back to beliefs and values. And so if you say what's driving your belief? Like if you're getting angry, you're getting insecure about something, so what are you insecure about? And so once you say that, oh, this is driven by this wound or this base assumption, this belief, this value, whatever, and you're treading on it. And I don't believe I can convince you, which is the thing that makes me feel insecure. And so now I'm going on the attack because I'm afraid you're going to like subsume me into your worldview. And so people just get very defensive of anything, as I said before, that challenges their narrative or their identity. And so your narrative is the conscious part of your frame of reference that you're aware of. Okay, so that's frame of reference. People are completely blinded by it. They assume that it is just real and true and any violation of that is because the other person is immoral.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

On.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So now the way that we argue well is we have a whole host of beliefs and values, rules and routines that go into conflict resolution. So first of all, you ask the brilliant question, which when I make you angry, you always ask, does he love me? And if the answer is yes, then you know that I'm operating in good faith and we come back together. So when you have things like that, and so some of mine are, when two intelligent, well meaning people disagree, there's a difference in base assumptions. So what are you, what is driving that thing or another one that I'll get to. Everybody is driving towards the North Star, but often they don't know what their North Star is. So I will ask you, what are you steering towards? What do you hope will come of this? If people get angry, they're insecure. So I will ask myself, I'm getting angry. So it's guaranteed a me problem. What am I insecure about? And so once I figure out what I'm insecure about, then I can bring that to the forefront. We believe that one ought to disclose your insecurities in the argument as fast as possible. We believe that one ought not try to be right or try to win the argument, but to figure out what is true and to navigate forward. So what is true? Meaning we have a goal. So let's make sure that we're aligned in the goal. This thing that we're doing, like your argument or my argument, one of them is going to be more effective of it moving us towards that goal. Let's try to figure out what that thing is. Now, this language is very clinical, and I will sometimes apologize in our personal relationship for using such clinical language. But this is exactly how we navigate these things, and you really do have to break them down into constituent parts. And part of why we're able to conflict, resolute, resolve conflicts so well is that we bring this ethos that I'm describing to our argument. And also we have really highly tactical rules of engagement. So if you get too upset, you know, to walk away. Now, the reason walking away works is it gives you time for your neurochemistry to change. So if we're getting into a fight, we want to make sure that it doesn't ruin the whole day. So we go separate ways. Cool. And the gold standard for you and I is for one of us to break that fever and then come to the other. We're doing it at the same time on three, so we will come to each other.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

We're both mad. We've had an argument.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Mad as hell.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I'm normally the one that leaves because

[Tom Bilyeu]

this is also the case I want to keep going.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

We've discussed our arguments and how we behave. You're the one that keeps pushing and I'm the one that needs to walk away and calm down. And we used to butt heads. We just agreed. This is how we both argue. Let's respect each other's way of doing it. You know that you're never going to get me where you need me to go if you don't let me actually walk away and calm down. So we've agreed. And then if both apart, the gold

[Tom Bilyeu]

standard is for one of us to break the fever. And as soon as the fever is broken in you, we have given each other a chip and we play it in the following manner. So on three, ready? One, two, three. Baby. So we will come into the room and one of us will do that to the other.

[Grainger Announcer]

You.

[Tom Bilyeu]

In our marriage, you were under a moral obligation. No matter how angry you are, no matter how wrong you think the other person is, you are obligated to do that back. So the first person will say the baby and then the other person has to immediately do it back.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And can I just break down even more? Because these are the things that I think is actually really useful for people. We can go, you know, really high level. But like this is that I'm like, okay. And if you don't feel it, you're still freaking mad at him like gritted teeth. But you know, it's a, it's a change in your brain, in your chemicals. Like you just know. It's like when you're really arguing, the phone rings, right? You know, you can immediately switch, go. I can't believe. Hello? You know, so knowing that you can do it just means how do you push yourself into it so that you can then allow the chemist fake it till you make it kind of thing. And so I don't know how you do it, but I actually have to count myself down. So it's like, all right, like 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. And go in the room and do it. Even when you don't feel it, it's like it's so it really breaks the spell. But the agreement is the other person has to reciprocate no matter what. Yes. Except one time where you didn't. And even it was like, ah, probably about eight months ago when I did it, you were still mad. And I even said to you, and this was one of these, here's what the great news is. It's because we talk about everything when

[Tom Bilyeu]

it happened, but I would have explained myself.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I even said to you in the moment, babe, you just broke our commitment. And you were like, oh, my God, of course, baby. And I was like, no, now I'm mad. And you're like, hang on a minute. You just said that. So in this exchange where literally we've been doing it for years and years, and then all of a sudden we somehow just like, disconnecting. And so it's like, then you get pissed and I get pissed. And because we were both doing then became a funny moment where we were like, all right, what the fuck we're doing? Like, this is most ridiculous thing. Yeah, but even then, it's important to say you're never always going to be perfect. And then even when in those moments you're not perfect for us, we just didn't give up and we just kept going.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Maybe tactics are so powerful, having tactics, but you have to build a shared understanding.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Well, one I want to actually throw in. People say like, oh, never go to bed angry. If that is an agreement you both have, Cool. For us, we've actually discussed it and we realized that even though other people, everyone at the time especially, was like, never go to bed angry, that's the worst thing for your relationship. We just realized, actually, it's great for our relationship because both of us wake up the next day, you're fresh, you're not tired. Right. Arguing at one in the morning doesn't get anyone anywhere. So we were just like, oh, we actually get more tired, more hungry. It makes the arguments worse. We're less clear about what we're talking about.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But do you know why many people say, don't go to bed angry?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I had the perception of, like, if you die in your sleep.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So what did we do to combat that?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Oh, you're right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I mean, we've got plans on plans on plans, homie.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah, you're right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I want people to understand, like, how much energy we have put into this.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I remember that that was why we did. It was more just as a reminder. But you're right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So we have said to each other many times, I want you to know that if you and I get in a horrible fight and you say that you hate me and that you wished I had never been born or whatever, and then you die. I just want you to know I know that you loved me and vice versa. So God forbid. Because it's always a person that lives, that's like, the last thing I said to them was horrible.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah, I hate you. I can't beat you.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We wanted the other person to know that. Look, I get it. If we get in a fight and we say something, which. We've never said anything like that to each other, but even if we did like that, we would know that that was momentary anger and that not to worry about it. That way we can do things like, I'm going to go for a walk or go for a drive or whatever. God forbid you end up getting in an accident that we don't spend the rest of our lives like, torn up. I still would think it will suck, but at least I have, like, we talked about it.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So actually, you're right. We've agreed. Go to bed angry, do what we need to, but. But we must always remind each other that we love each other. And that's why no matter what, no matter how angry pissed we are, we'll always kiss each other on the lips and say, I love you. Even if it's like, yeah, love you, love you.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But even sometimes that makes me chuckle because we're like, just so cute. Like we're just mad at each other, but we still love each other. So, yes, that's a great strategy. And in fact, you were about to say something else, which is another tip that we do about not saying something that you can't take back.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, don't say it. It's one of those, like, there. And I feel so bad. And I want to make sure that people feel like there's a path to recovery. But it's like, man, they're just things you don't want to say. And the way that we've always thought about it is don't weaponize the other person's insecurities. So one of the greatest things about being in a marriage and running the experiment that we're running, which is what happens if people just refuse to let the love die. And so, like, we're going to make this work. It's pretty amazing what happens over a long period of time. And even when I was young, I had a hypothesis that has certainly turned into a working theory, which is there. There is nothing better that life has to offer you than a shared life. This is why people love friends. This is why people love family. This is why being in a marriage is amazing. You're sharing a life with somebody and there's no fast way to make an old friend. You just have to put in the years. You know what I mean? And so it's a really beautiful thing. So you want to make sure that you're not saying something that's going to damage that. And so coming in, we said, okay, the reason that this is the best thing that life has to offer is because I can be completely myself. I can be completely vulnerable. I can admit things to you that I would never say to other people. Insecurities, whatever the case may be. And in doing that, there's so much trust. And all it takes is for you one time to win an argument by shutting me down, by saying, oh, remember that thing that you're insecure about that you said, maybe I'm not good at this, or I'm dumb or whatever, like broken forever. You're done. And that creates a distrust. People put walls up. And I've always thought the most optimistic, hopeful thing a person can do is go through a brutal breakup and then come out the other side and still be willing to open their heart again to somebody else. But the way that you not end up in that situation is by not weaponizing their insecurities. So there have been times where you could have ended an argument instantly by jabbing me with an insecurity. I could have ended an argument by jabbing you with an insecurity. We've never done it. And so that is, I think, really smart.

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[Lisa Bilyeu]

I think also, though, as you were talking, if someone does do it to jab them. So let's say I were in an argument and I was doing something to jab you. That's intention, and that's where I go. Why would I if I was the person doing the jabbing? Because that I can control. Almost can't control you, right? So I'd go, why would I deliberately want to jab at them? Jabbing, to me means I'm trying to protect myself from something. So I'm trying to hurt you before you hurt me. Okay, well, why am I trying to protect myself? And then that becomes a sign of maybe something underlying that I would then have to look at. But if you ever hurt me deliberately, I know that I would never intentionally want to hurt you back. And so I think that that's a big part of it that I never. I. I've never used your words or your insecurities against you. Because I've never wanted to hurt you. I've definitely hurt you accidentally. And that's why in those moments of arguments, you ask yourself, does he love me? Because that, like, it's, does he love me? And did he intend to hurt me? Right. That became the evolution. So does he love me? Yes. Did he intend to hurt me? No. Okay, great. Now I can work through it. Right now I know no matter what ended up in this massive, fiery argument, I can get through it because I know that it wasn't your intention and you still want to be with me and you love me. The second I go, oh, he intended to hurt me, that becomes a red flag. Why did you intend to hurt me? Was it that I just hurt you so badly and so you try to retaliate? Okay, why did you try to retaliate? Do you think that I tried to actually hurt you intentionally right now? And then it becomes a very different discussion. It's not about, I can't believe you did it. I don't trust you anymore. It actually becomes a, what is this a sign of? And then that actually also goes to the whole bloody discussion about, like, trusting a partner. Do you check their phone? Do you not check their phone? How much do you trust them to go out with another woman on, you know, when you're not there? Things like that. And it comes back down to, if I felt like I had to check your phone. It's not about the bloody phone. The second I feel like I have to check it, babe, I'd be like. Like, oh, there's something wrong with your marriage.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Facts, facts. Like, I've never understood why people would stay in a relationship like that. That is. That doesn't mean that you have to jettison, but it does mean you have to address it. Like, hey, look, I. Like. In fact, I think I really. I think I've earned the credibility in our marriage. So I can say this to you. The audience may not believe me, but I would sooner say to you, I feel like I want to check your phone, than I would actually go check your phone and be like, we got to talk about this, because. And then hopefully you would say, whoa, what's led you to feel like that? And then I would tell you exactly the things that you have done that made me feel like that. Most people, a, they're not going to say they feel the compulsion to check your phone. They're just going to check your phone. And then the difficulty of, like, saying the difficult thing, it's just.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And then even in that, though, we would discuss, okay, let's separate emotion from fact, right? It's like, okay, I've done something that makes you feel like that, but let's actually walk through the facts of what I did. And now is this a me thing where I actually did do something to give that little insecurity jab, or is it that you're insecure and in my actions, you've perceived it to be something that actually is a part of your insecurity and not actual fact? And so that was really hard. If I can just be honest, for me, more than you, I don't know if that's a male, female thing, but I was just like, yeah, but I feel. And you were always being very respectful, but. And we've had to navigate this because I'm like, look, I can't separate my feelings with facts in that moment. So even in that moment, if you're trying to say, but what are the facts, I'm like, I can't do it. You need to give me.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't understand that.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

You need to give me. I just can't. I just can't get out of my way of emotion.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So really asking, don't. Hasn't life taught you that you can't trust your emotions? No, life hasn't taught. I've lived this life with you. Life has taught you over and over and over that you can't trust your emotions.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

It's taught me, but in hindsight, every time, Every time I feel the way I feel, it feels like truth now. But here's the thing. In the moment, I just acknowledge it feels like truth. I know better, but it feels like truth. So I can't get out of. I can't separate right now the enmeshment between the feeling and the truth. I just can't. It's so enmeshed. And so all I try to say is I know that they're. They are separate. I. I logically can work through that. But when I feel a certain way, even though you don't, I do. And I just have to be honest, I don't judge myself.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think you're misunderstanding me. So when I'm in the feeling, it feels true, it feels real. It feels like there's no universe in which I come out the other side of this and don't go, I'm right a thousand percent, but I don't trust myself when I have a strong emotion like that. I'm like, you can't trust this. You can't trust this. Like, I psa. If you have A strong emotion, you can't trust it. This is why when people, like, trust your intuition, I'm like, no, motherfucker, did you train your intuition? Like, have you been checking up on it? Are you sure that you're reading the situation right? So I do not understand people that feel that because they feel something, they should act on it. The very thing you shouldn't do right is act on it.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But that's why I'm saying, I know in that moment they're a mesh. I shouldn't act on it. So I need time to step away. Once my emotions equalize, I'm able to look at them more from a. What's the word? Like a bird's eye view, then actually be in it word. But in that moment, I go, I know this feels right. And so I know myself to not act on it. Now you, I am hearing is very different. But I don't go,

[Tom Bilyeu]

it's exactly the same. So what you just said is exactly right. I feel right. I feel like, oh, 100%. This is real. This is right. All that. And it sounds like you're saying that, you know, even though it feels real and right, that you're like, I'm not gonna act on this.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah, in the moment.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's all I'm saying.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Oh, yeah, in the moment.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, 100%. Most people don't do that.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Most people lash out, if I'm honest. You and I both know somebody. Her name is Lisa, and she does occasionally act on her emotions, but I look. And every time I look at her, like she has roaches on her face, because I'm like, what are you doing? So here's. Here's the thing. Hang on.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Can I just say, though, the thing that I've done, which I am really freaking proud of, that I want to echo, is that even in that moment, I acknowledge you and I. You said it earlier. I didn't want to interrupt you, but it was really powerful. You own your insecurities, and you own your own triggers. I own my own insecurities and I own mind triggers. And the fact that we own them and know they don't serve our relationship means that we can come to in our relationship and be honest about them, but use that as a way, the honesty as a guide that I'm not there yet. And so for me, that's what I say to you. I wish I was better at this right now. My skills and. And for people. I actually say this to you. I wish I was better at articulating my feelings right now. But I'm not. I just feel triggered. And so what I need to do is I just need to walk away because I'm feeling triggered. I know this won't go anywhere. So please, just let me walk away and then we'll come back. But even though I'm feeling the feels, I'll be honest about feeling the feels. Now, to your point, I think what people don't do is they acknowledge the feeling in the moment as being a feeling. They acknowledge it as fact.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes. And to make matters worse, it feels so good and so congruent to act out your emotions that you get a positive reinforcement loop. That's like word. Yeah, it's exactly what you should have done. And people that say otherwise are crazy and they're out of their minds. No one. In my worldview, people ought to steer by effectiveness. So I have a goal. I ought to do the thing that moves me towards that goal as effectively as possible. Now, there are presuppositions in there. I assume that your goal is exciting and honorable. I assume that you're not a dictator, you're not evil, like. But yeah, assuming that you have an honorable goal, you should judge the behaviors that you enact based on what moves you towards your goal. Period.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And so in the middle of the of arguments, you think that that's what couples do not do. They just want to be right versus.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So what ends up happening? This. The biggest breakthrough in my entire life was when I realized that I had goals I wasn't aware of, but that I was always steering towards my goal. And so what happens is the goal people have is to feel good and congruent by enacting the emotion that they have because it feels good. Very weird to go, five, four, three, two, one. Baby, that feels weird. It doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right until four seconds later when it feels amazing and you're so glad you did it. But in that first, it feels fake. It feels like you're letting them off the hook. It just. It feels wrong for a gazillion reasons. And so what I had to realize the reason that we do the baby thing is because my real goal is a joyful, wonderful light of my life marriage. And I won't get to that fighting all day. And if I let myself stew in these neurochemicals and think about all the ways you've just wronged me and how dumb you are because your worldview is not the same as mine. And ah, if I do that, when the neurochemistry finally wears off, I'm going to say that was really stupid and did a hundred times, which is why we now have this rule. It's not like, hey, the first time I met you, you know what we should do? If we ever get in an argument, we should go, baby. It was like, I wasted so many Saturdays and I was furious with myself. And I was like, what am I doing? And so in a sober moment, I said, I'm going to act in this way when the inevitable thing happens, because I don't. My goal is not to feel a line where I'm angry. Thusly, I'm going to act angry and make sure she knows I'm angry angry, which would feel awesome. When I get mad at you, I like being mad at you. I like letting you know I'm mad. I'm like, I want to win this argument. That would feel awesome. But I know better. And so I try to get myself out of that meaning. I know that that does not lead me to light of my life, marriage, joyful, where I've elevated you, which is one of my highest values, I believe I ought to be elevating my wife. And so it doesn't do any of those things. And so when I'm emotionally sober, I'm like, that was stupid. And I don't understand people who. Life has taught them, that feels so good. Keep doing that. Keep. When you're angry, be angry, act angry. Let people know you're angry. When you're jealous, act jealous. Do crazy things, grab their phone, all that, because it feels good, like you're scratching that itch. Whereas I'm like, yo, if I feel jealousy, like, this is not going to get me where I want to go. But I've carefully defined where I want to go, so I know this emotion is not serving me. I need to address it.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

It. Wow, that. I love how you break that down. And do you think that that's a part of some of the problems people are finding when they're juggling? I don't like to say the balance, but a lot of people want to use the word balance. Work and career and family and love, where they. They don't. They get their. Their goals conflicted or they're not actually clear on which one is priority or which one's more of a goal.

[Tom Bilyeu]

How much time do you have? Okay, Jesus, this is a very long. You basically said they've got all these things that they want out of their life and they're acting a fool. If I can just sum it up, that was me in my 20s, so I know exactly what's happening. And yes, a part of it is that they have conflicting goals. But more importantly, they have goals they don't even realize are goals. So now let's make this about women for a second. I want to be on my bad bitch arc at the same time I'm on my mother arc. Good luck. Nature's gonna you up because nature is gonna go, oh, you thought you were on your bad bitch arc. Nice try. I'm gonna pump you through full of so many chemicals that you're gonna be like, I've got to take care of my baby and nothing else matters. But by the way, you still have all these goals on your bad bitch arc that you didn't accomplish. And so you're now conflicted. I've never loved anything like I love this thing in my life. Nothing comes close. I would lay my life for this thing. I would kill all you motherfuckers to protect this thing. But damn, I feel guilty that I'm not still building my business. Am I still a good person? Am I still a bad bitch that I'm taking? But I really value being a bad bitch. But, God, this thing owns me heart and soul. So you get that kind of conflict. It's brutal. Being a human is hard, and there is no right answer. It's not like being on your bad bitch arc isn't wrong or bad. Being a mother isn't wrong or bad. There are trade offs. You're going to give up certain things to be a mother. You're going to give up certain things to be a bad bitch. And have you worked on the narrative so that you know how to deal with that as you move through phases in your life? Because those different phases are going to be literally different versions of you. You're different versions of you. On a given day. Think about, if you get really hungry, you're suddenly in a different personality. We all joke, we call it hangry, but it is a different microcosm of you. You act differently, process data differently. Everything about you is different. You become myopically focused on going and getting the food. Same thing. Like, if you want to understand a guy in his 20s, if you don't understand the micro personality of being horny, you are never going to understand your man. So it's like understanding that you move through. If you can move through micro personalities in a day, imagine what you're going to do on decades, right? You just become a wildly different person. So one thing you and I have talked a lot about, we decided not to have kids. But we've gone into it with our eyes open. We will regret. I guarantee it. We're going to regret. The older version of us is going to regret not having children. So right now we have to be protective of that person and go, okay, what are we going to have to do in our lives to make sure that as we get there, one that we can say, hey, we've had all this impact, and we have a narrative where it's like, whoa, I really feel good about that. But we know that you can't just live looking backwards. That's no way to live a life. It's important, and it's a huge. Whether people want to admit it or not, it's a huge. Part of who you are is how you view your past. So we're thoughtful about that. But then there's also, like, what I call the Benjamin Franklin move, which is if you don't have kids, you probably need to start mentoring kids at some point. And no longer over computer screens is not going to give you what you need. So you want to start, as you get older, plugging into something where it's a very finite number of kids. For some people, it's going to be aunt, Uncle Stilo. Our family has not delivered us the goods on that. I've tried to outsource it to them, and that did not work. So we're gonna have to find things, whether it's going into a local high school, middle school, whatever, and, like, being the, you know, the grandparent that's like, hey, we set up time and we let kids, like a counselor, whatever. I haven't gotten that far. I've always thought of it in the entrepreneurial sphere, but it's like, you'll do a thing where, let's say this is how I've always imagined it in my head. We take entrepreneurs that are anywhere from, say, 16 to 25, and it's like we mentor them. And if I took three people like that and I mentored them, but, like, was really connecting with them in the kind of way where I'd invite them to Thanksgiving dinner, it's like, that is how you pull this off, that. And we're very, very close to our family, but our family will start dying. I hate that that is true, but that's just real. And so that's going to start dwindling, which will change the energy. Again, like said, I, I've thought about all these things. So you have to think of yourself as being very different people over a long timeframe. And you have to be kind to all of them. As you think about your choices, you're like, okay, well that person's not going to dig that. If I had kids now they say that the greatest hell is meeting the version of yourself that you could have been. I know myself and you know very well. I feel a tremendous sense of obligation. Like I'm aware of how long Wookiee's been locked up so that we can film this. That's part of my calculus and so that's a dog. So like if we had kids, I just wouldn't be able to do the things on my entrepreneurial journey that I would otherwise want to be able to do. It's a huge trade off. Right? I give up not having kids. So anyway, you just have to be thoughtful about all of those moments. Recognize that you're going to be different people. Recognize that you have to be thoughtful to all of them and pick a path that doesn't over optimize for today. Which is where I think people get into big trouble. They have these conflicting goals or over optimizing for today. They don't understand why they're pulling themselves in different directions and it is a muddle. So if I were to say, how do people solve for that problem? It's very simple. Write down. And I know this drives you crazy, but write down in a single sentence. Sentence. No parentheticals, commas, no run ons. In every area of your life, what are you trying to accomplish? Write down your values. Actually write them down. Write down 5 to 10 values in order, which most people can't do. Write down your beliefs. I've literally published my beliefs. You can see the 25 most important things that I believe about human potential, about the way the world works that should inform your frame of reference. Reference. Once you're forced to articulate them in as few words as possible, you should be able to articulate your entire mission in life in 35 words, probably less. So it's lack of clarity, lack of understanding, how to manage the multiple personalities that you are across time. It's over optimizing for today. Poor communication skills, lack of self awareness. Like all of this nest together to where people just go, I'm angry, I'm going to act angry.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Thank you for that breakdown. What I would love though, so you broke down like the, the areas of like how you actually prioritize, which I think is super important. But when you're talking about like career and love and then I actually love the optimization or like know these people that you're going to be one of the things though, is that when you said people optimize for today, I think a big part of what they do is they trick themselves into what the future is going to look like. And so you said to me in our hardest times that you'll come back to me. You'll find your way back.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Last of the Mohican shit. Everyone may think that's dumb. Even hearing you say it back to me, I'm like, damn, those are good. That was a good line.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

It was a good line and it was, it was very meaningful to me. But it was saying, hey, look, right now the path we're on needs to change. What do we need to change and then how do we change it? And you saying that was a promise you committed to your wife and it didn't feel like you were going look down the road like, because we'd already been there as a stay at home wife who literally you would come home every 18 months and say, Babe, I just need an 18, another 18 months to build more wealth. It became an eight year journey. And what happened was, is that in that, that process you were punting, in essence, like, oh, just, just another, this, just another. The amount of couples I see now do this where the woman is feeling the burn. I've given things up, I've given up my future for you. You said that you're going to be here. But let's say, and I've seen this many times, there's a big deal going on in maybe the guy. And I don't necessarily want to be gender specific, but this is just what I've noticed. So because we have a lot of couple friends who a lot of them are entrepreneurs with, we've seen this where the guy has something, they're closing a business deal, they've got a major, you know, acquisition or something huge is going. And then the wife is like, but you've been doing this for three years, I haven't seen you in God knows how long. And recently we had many couples say this to us where they were trying to justify just saying, but I've told them, like, it's just going to be a year. I've told them I'm just going to finish this one deal. And then, and in that moment, I even pulled you aside and I was like, I think people are fooling themselves. And I think that this is such a trap that a lot of entrepreneurs and couples are getting into because they're trying to pretend or they think I just need to do this one thing instead of just acknowledging this is who they are. And this was the biggest revelation in our marriage where you even said to me, you can ask me to give up anything except for my ambition. Now, if you don't mind actually explaining why. And then we can kind of piece this apart because I think it's so cool.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's why I said that in my early 20s. And the reason that I knew that was true is my ambition was always a huge part of my identity, maybe the biggest part of my identity as a kid just to run around telling everybody I'm going to be rich one day. They used to make fun of me relentlessly, but I just really believed that I was meant to play full out, that there was nothing that I couldn't do or be. And it was just about. I had to learn how to execute. And so that part got me through every hard time as a kid. Every hard time up until the moment I met you was like, I'm going to outwork everybody. I remember not getting in trouble, but being pulled aside before I met you because my timesheet, I had 90 hours in a week. And they were like they had never experienced somebody who, no matter how much time they offered me as overtime, I would take it. There was no limit. So from the moment they opened the doors, and I'll be the one to close the doors. You want to stay open later, whatever. I'll sleep on the floor. If I can't keep myself awake, I'll sleep on the floor. That not only was something that I take tremendous pride in, I still do to this day. So what I said to you was, the reason you can't ask me to give that up is I don't want to know who I am without that. So it's not even that I don't know who I would be without that. I don't, but I don't want to know. And so it was like the person you fell in love with is that thing.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

And that was so damn profound because in those moments where you're just like, oh, just another 18 months, obviously everything in hindsight now I just real. You're like, hey, Look, I'm working 120 hours. It was just insane. And it made me realize, like, this is you. And so I'm not here to. I don't want you to be someone that you're not. And so if you are ambitious, I. It is my duty as your partner to support that now. What's also my duty is to make sure though, that nothing gets in the way of our relationship. And so this was the Tricky navigation between us where most. Most people punt to pretend they're not always going to be ambitious. And I'm going to be generic for a second and say, it's mostly the guys that I've noticed where the guys are just like, I've just told my wife, like, I'm only going to work like this for the next two years. I'm going to earn enough money just for the next two years, and then we'll be okay. And I've just seen it time and time again where the reality is, I think they would save themselves and their relationship a lot of problems by being honest, saying, I'm an ambitious person. I feel good when I do X, Y and Z. And now if it doesn't serve our relationship, let's get together and figure out how we can navigate our relationship that is optimal for you and for me. But never do we just say, well, you're just going to stop working, so I'll be fine in a year. And that is something I really wanted to make sure that we spoke about today because I see so many entrepreneurs and couples getting trapped in thinking that they just need to earn enough money. But in my experience, it's all been about the identity of the person. And that's why you can never give.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Let me ask you a question. Have you ever asked yourself, is it worth it? You've traded a lot. So abstract it from me. It's not about me. I die. It's a wonderful death, though. You're happy for me, and now you're moving on.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I don't know what world that would

[Tom Bilyeu]

be in, but you're moving on, trying to remove the trauma. You're moving on to the next guy. And so do you look for somebody that is, like, I was hyper ambitious, that prides themselves on being able to suffer and do what other people can't do, or do you go on your travel arc and you find the guy that's like, yeah, no, I don't need a lot, and so let's just go live life together. Come on. Like, Like, I just want to be with you, Lisa. I don't want distractions. Your husband, I bet he was amazing, but, like, he didn't cherish you the way that I cherish you. How could anybody ever let themselves be distracted away from you? I want to be with you. You could live that life.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

So that's very interesting. And of course, I think it is wise for people to say, like, I choose this life. Do I still want it?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Because all I want to know, you don't get to dodge it even though you're the host. Have you ever not? What conclusion did you come to? Have you ever asked the question, is being with a guy this ambitious worth it? Because it has its upside?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I don't know if I would have worded it like that, but in general, yes. Do I, Do I think that the struggles that we go through on a day to day is worth it? Should we just give up the business and live a happy, blissful marriage on the side?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Are you asking yourself right now for the first time?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

No, no, I do, of course.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So you've asked. So I pushed you to the point where you're like, holy shit, is this worth it?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

No, I just think.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What do you mean, no?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

You haven't asked, you haven't pushed me, babe. That's my point. I think it's so damn wise. For eight years I wrote a book about being in the purgatory, the mundane, when I never once asked myself, what life do I want? And what does that look like? And no bullshit, what am I actually going to do together for eight years? I didn't ask myself that. So I absolutely always ask myself about everything, not just you. Do I still want my own show? Do I still want to be in front of the camera? Do I still want my own company? Do I not want to live on the beach in like with a cocktail in my hat? I ask myself all the time so I never get trapped. And I think it's so healthy, it's not out of doubt. Why is it worth it? Oh, so there's multiple things in specific regards to you. The truth is I'm extremely attracted to ambition. I'm extreme. It's extremely turned on by someone powerful. I am like, I, I wouldn't feel, I wouldn't. I don't want to be in a relationship where I may feel like I have the majority the control in a relationship. I heard recently also someone saying, oh, no, it's always better as a woman to have a man that loves you slightly more than you love him. That's the most fucking horrifying thing I've ever heard.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So there's two different things though. I would say control and love. You could leverage love to get the.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Control them together just as like equal stuff. So when I think about equality with me and my husband, it is that I, I don't always want to be the person in the control, carry the power in the relationship. I don't want that. That isn't interesting, Stressful. No.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Or because you're turned on by Somebody that can do it?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Yeah, I think it's because I'm turned on by someone that can do it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I think that's some real right there, babe.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

I just think it, it's. I honestly don't know why it's hard for people to say that because it doesn't make me less of a woman to say that I want a powerful man. It doesn't make me weaker to say that I admire power in my husband.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Have you just been brainwashed by society?

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Oh, have I been brainwashed? I mean, look, I always question my belief beliefs because I was the person that believed I should be a stay at home wife. So you better believe I always question where my beliefs come from. And so when I question my beliefs, I then tap into does this feel true or is it just something that I say? And so when I go, no, this feels true. When I see you in a meeting and you're just like commanding a room. I've told you before, babe, that was a fucking turn on. And so I just embrace it. Is that I don't even ask myself why, like is this healthy or not? I don't ask myself that. The truth is I don't feel less than by saying it it. And so I think that that to me is where it becomes, can be detrimental for women. And I have tremendous empathy. And I think that it's important for a woman to then work on her own self esteem and her own security so that they don't find insecurity when they're around other ambitious or powerful people. To be honest, I would say that whether I was around a man or a woman, I felt insecure by about being around both. But having done my own work. Work. I love that you're ambitious. I love that you're not needy. Like that's just the truth. I wouldn't want someone that was clingy to me all the time. I wouldn't want someone that woke up every day and I was the center of their universe. I just wouldn't. That isn't interesting to me.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Now let me be very clear. You are the center of my universe. Yes, I every everything I do, your date, I do for you. As much as that's a cheesy song. Larry. Eric, I really mean that. Going back to my earlier point though, I know that there are many things that I truly do for you that you wish I wouldn't. And so that is a hilarious conundrum of the relationship between men and women. But nonetheless it is true.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Well, let's talk about words right that's so important that even in that moment, you, as I said it and you went to repeat it, I was like, I should have caught that. Because I know you well enough to know that that's a phrase that you use as a demonstration that you would really die for me. And so actually, if I was better or faster, I wouldn't have used that because I know that that's the thing that you hold true to. So words matter. And so while that wouldn't have been a bother to me, I know that that means something to you. And so in that next time, I'm not going to say that because I understand that words have meaning. And so even with this discussion, when I say I admire you because you're ambitious, I love. I get turned on by your ambition and your power and your want to.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You know, it's a terrible way to get somebody to work less, by the way.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

But look, there's like everything, there's nuance. So. So everything that I ask, like, is it worth it? Is always a reflection of what am I gaining out of the relationship. Right? Like, I don't think relationships can always be one or they should never just be one way. But you also, there should be moments where there are. It is going to be one way because maybe you're struggling and so you need the support. And for multiple years, my health was just so bad.

[Tom Bilyeu]

When you say one way, you mean one sided.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

One sided. Yeah, sorry, one sided. And I actually also think that that's important because everyone's just like, you know, even as we're talking about equality and having, you know, equal partnership, that doesn't mean that it's always going to be 50, 50 all the time. So in moments where you're going through something, I need to show up for you, and it needs to be more about you than about me. And just like when I had massive health issues, it was more about me than it was about you. And so having. Being able to have that relationship where you can navigate, it's got to come

[Tom Bilyeu]

out on balance, though.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

It does, for sure. But that's why even with the ambition thing, you saying, you cannot ask me not to be ambitious, and I was like, amazing, but you cannot spend 120 hours working. And so that's where having the discussion where, if you hadn't have said to me, you can't ask me to be ambitious because this is who I am, I may have asked you accidentally to work less. And then that is interpreted by then you, me saying, hey, I want you to be less ambitious. And now you feel like I'm asking, asking you not to be you. And so to come full circle on entrepreneurs that are trying to juggle career, marriage, relationships and things like that. I think it's going to be so freaking important to identify who you are as a human, the realities of what future you actually want, and then have that discussion with your partner instead of trying to punt. Because in the now it's just easier to say this isn't going to be for a long time, instead of, which is the real truth. And the hard discussion is, this is who I am for the rest of my life. So for you, in our relationship, having built businesses together, haven't built business by yourself, being an entrepreneur, what do you think is the thing that people may be in your situation now where they're like, I really want to have a career and I really want to have an amazing marriage. What are the things that they need to make sure that they, they're doing right now?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, selection is 80% of the battle. So you have to be very thoughtful about how you select what you look for. I'll round it to you need to share most of your values. If you don't share 80 to 85% of your values, you're in real trouble. That's where people are going to disconnect. And then you need somebody with a growth mindset and then be good at different things things. And I think that's really important. So going back to the men, women thing, for eons, we had, women were good at raising kids effectively and being that core part of the community. And then men were off hunting and fighting wars and they were good at that part. And so we each had different things to be good at and we were each celebrated for those very different things. So in your marriage, you want to do the same thing. You each want to knowingly be good at different things. So if you're trying to be an entrepreneur and a great husband, or a great wife for that matter, you need to figure out, okay, in what way am I contributing? So am I being an entrepreneur because it's money and we're trying to do something, or is this, am I expressing that for a different part? Like, for me, it really was. Money could become a part of it. But I made us clip coupons for a long time. So it's like you have to be really thoughtful. You could struggle forever and not get there. So is that a manifestation of self improvement, of pursuit, ambition? But you need to be really clear about that. So being clear about your goals, being clear about your actions, are they actually leading me towards my goals? Selecting well and then really creating a shared frame of reference with your significant other that puts the well being of the two of you the center where you're both elevating each other up that you're very clear about your order of priorities. So even though we don't spend as much time on the relationship as we do the business, the relationship takes priority. And so when the two collide, we're like, hey, if the relationship needs something, it's going to get it. And there have been precious few moments in our life where we've not lived up to that. So that is I think really important. You have to actually walk through the walk and not just talk the talk. So you have to look for those moments like you were saying, like, hey, there's this really big thing you have to judge like what's going on at home. Is this a moment where I just have to make this happen for the marriage and so I'm going to lose an opportunity in the business side. And it just is what it is. I think that's really important. And then you definitely want to be constantly upping your self awareness game. You want to constantly be upping your, your communication game. Tactics. All of that stuff is really important. And there really is like tactics is probably the thing I would lay at people's feet. Like if you just do these things, if you actually do them, your marriage will be amazing. Even if you do them for the wrong reasons, just doing those things will end up working out. And so tactics is something that I think so many people out there like when I think about you and I in terms of talking about relationships, do we really have something new to add? Yes. Like in terms of tactics, we do this and it yields this outcome. I think that's where a lot of people fall down. They're in like spirituality. They talk about like touching hearts and gazing eyes and oh God. Like you really need to figure out what are your standard operating procedures for an argument. What are your rules of engagement? And people don't do that.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

An SOP for an argument. I love that. That's so good, baby. Thank you so much.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Dude, you're amazing. Your show is my favorite show to be on ever of all time. Obviously it's a bit of a cheat because your life is prepped for this interview, but wow, was that fun.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Where can people find you?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Omdillew I got my wifey voice on.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Guys, guys, thank you so much for watching. If you're not subscribed click that subscribe button. And I really, really want to hear from you guys. What was the one freaking fire thing that you're going to go home right now and tell your partner that you're going to try together to improve your relationship? Drop it in the comments right now. And until next time, guys, be the hero of your own life. Peace.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Hey, it's your ceiling vent. So I'm dripping. Could be the rain, could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin.

[Lisa Bilyeu]

Do we know if he's licensed or does he just own a ladder?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Listen to your home go with thumbtack. Upload a photo or voice note, and we'll diagnose your project and match you with the right pro for the job. Thumbtack we know homes hire the right pro today.