Kobe & Jordan’s Trainer Tim Grover on the Dark Side of Winning and What It Really Takes to Be Great (Fan Fav)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Tim Grover on the Dark Side of Winning and What It Really Takes to Be Great

Impact Theory with Tom Bilyeu
Episode Date: November 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features legendary trainer Tim Grover, renowned for coaching icons like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. Grover joins host Tom Bilyeu to unpack "the dark side of winning," the true cost of greatness, and the universal lessons applicable far beyond sports. Through candid storytelling and powerful insights, Grover challenges conventional wisdom about success, offering a raw, honest look at what it really takes to stand out, endure losses, and win repeatedly—personally and professionally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The True Nature of Winning

• Winning Is Not About Trophies
  • "Winning is not about the trophy and the accolades. It's about the grind. It's about the obstacles. It's about the challenges. It's about the pain that you endure along the way." — Tim Grover [02:59]
• Winning is fleeting—success provides only a short-lived high, quickly followed by the pressure to do it again [02:59–03:49].
• Unforgiving Race: Winning is unforgiving because it’s defined by persistent losses and the lessons gained from them.

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2. Transformative Power of Loss

• Embrace Time on the Floor
  • "People say you got to jump right back up, you know, get back right on your feet again. And I disagree with that. After you lose or when you get knocked down, stay down there for a minute, understand why you lost… if you just jump right back up, you're going to lose again and again." — Tim Grover [04:29]
• Each loss offers essential growth—resilience, confidence, strength. Skipping this introspection means never truly evolving [04:29–06:31].

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3. Looking Beyond the Surface

• It's not enough to look in the mirror—true answers lie deeper.
  • "It's what's really inside of them. ...Winning requires you to go so far deep inside yourself. It's way beyond the surface." — Tim Grover [06:54]
• People fear confronting their true selves—the limitations, flaws, and “dark side” driving or hindering them [06:54–08:16].

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4. Flaws vs. Weaknesses

• Flaws as Unique Gifts

  • MJ’s and Kobe’s so-called flaws (obsession, intensity) were actually the very traits that set them apart.
  • "Your flaws are your gifts. ...those flaws allow you to win over and over and over again." — Tim Grover [08:16–09:00]

• Weakness vs. Flaw Distinction:

  • Weaknesses should be recognized and addressed, sometimes by finding complementary team members.
  • Flaws, when understood and owned, are often the very source of greatness [11:27–14:08].

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5. Process, Obsession, and Detail

• Process Is Non-Negotiable

  • "To me, you have to do the process. The process is non-negotiable. ...If I let my emotions get involved, it's not going to get done to its best abilities." — Tim Grover [19:07]

• Grover’s coaching method: obsessive attention to detail (counting steps, tailoring workouts) demonstrates the level of meticulousness required to achieve excellence [17:46–22:32].

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6. Winning as an Entity

• Personifying Winning

  • Winning is described as an entity with no loyalty, massive demands, and fickle rewards.
  • "Winning isn't loyal to any of us. ...People that don't work as hard ...may get that win. ...Do you stop the process? No, you continue to get more maniacal with the process…" — Tim Grover [19:07–22:32]

• Winning’s requirements don’t care about fairness; only relentless pursuit withstands its tests [22:32–24:14].

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7. Obsession, Neurochemistry, and Mental Health

• Is It Madness to Pursue Winning?
  • "I think it's mental illness not to pursue it." — Tim Grover [24:14]
• The pursuit of wins—big or small—fuels neurochemical rewards (confidence, satisfaction). Avoiding pursuit leads to emptiness, lack of meaning [26:44–28:08].
• Everyone is wired for progress and actualization; refusing this call can lead to malaise or self-destructive patterns.

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8. The Dark Side, Rage, and Controlled Aggression

• Harnessing Every Tool

  • Many avoid their “dark side”—rage, aggression, intense energy—fearing it’s evil or uncontrollable.
  • "The dark side turns your anger into controlled rage. Now you're in control." — Tim Grover [40:14]

• True success demands occasionally wielding this controlled aggression—not destructively, but productively [34:29–40:14].

• "If a new day starts in the dark, why are you afraid to use your dark side for your new beginnings?" — Tim Grover [36:22]

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9. Minds Over Feelings

• The Mind Must Triumph
  • Winners’ minds are stronger than their feelings; for most, the opposite is true.
  • "Those individuals, their feelings are stronger than their mind. And for us, our minds are stronger than our feelings." — Tim Grover [45:36]
• The mentally resilient push through doubt, loss, and discomfort—prioritizing mission over emotion [45:36–48:48].

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10. Personal Sacrifice: The Cost of Winning

• Grover recounts painful sacrifices, such as time away from family.
  • "My daughter walks in...says, Daddy, if I eat less, will you stay home more?" — Tim Grover [49:03]
• He chose to keep packing for work, teaching by example the hard choices and sacrifices required by true commitment [49:03–53:15].

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11. Write Your Own Story

• Don’t let others define your path.
  • "You have too many individuals out there that are not writing their own story. They're letting other people write those stories for them. Winning wants you to write your own story..." — Tim Grover [53:16]

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12. No Simple Steps—Find Your Path

• Final Advice:
  • "Stop looking for steps. Stop looking for things that say, five steps to winning...Those steps are infinite and they're constantly changing." — Tim Grover [55:19]
• Trust yourself, embrace the infinite stairway to greatness, and don’t fear starting over.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "When does a new day start? At midnight. Is it light or dark out? ...If a new day starts in the dark, why are you afraid to use your dark side for your new beginnings?" — Tim Grover [36:22]
• "Confidence is one of...like the ultimate drug. But you know who the dealer is? Winning is the dealer." — Tim Grover [28:08]
• "I always want you to see the real dad, the real person. ...Every successful person that I've met...had to make those decisions over and over again that affect other individuals that are so close and so dear to them." — Tim Grover [49:19]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:59] – Grover’s definition of winning
• [04:29] – Staying down after failure to fully learn
• [06:54] – Looking beyond the surface for true self-knowledge
• [08:47] – Flaws vs. weaknesses; gifts in disguise
• [11:27] – Michael Jordan recognizing weakness and seeking help
• [19:07] – The process is non-negotiable
• [22:32] – The impersonal, demanding “entity” of winning
• [24:14] – Is obsessively pursuing winning mental illness?
• [28:08] – Neurochemistry, confidence, and winning’s addictive nature
• [34:29] – Why most people won’t use every tool (the dark side)
• [36:22] – The necessity of using your dark energy
• [40:14] – Controlled aggression in pursuit of your mission
• [45:36] – Mind vs. feelings in high performers
• [49:03] – Sacrifice: Grover’s daughter asks him to stay home
• [55:19] – Final advice to the next generation: no simple steps

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a deep, raw exploration into what separates the good from the truly great—relentless process, ruthless self-honesty, the courage to embrace your flaws, and the willingness to tap into and harness every part of yourself, light and dark, for a higher purpose.

Anyone seeking greatness, in any field, will find tough-love wisdom and a challenge: to look within, face the truth, and step into the “unforgiving race” that is true winning.

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Transcript

[Tom Bilyeu]

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[Tim Grover]

To me, anger is a reaction to what somebody else said to you. It creates an emotion. All right. The dark side turns your anger into controlled rage. Now you're in control. Now, how long can you stay in control? That's the difference. Are you going to burn out right away? All of a sudden, you just let out all this rage? Or do you know how to control it and place it in the right places, not only to win the battle, but to win that war? And we literally have a war going on every single moment. It may not be out in here, but there's a war that goes on in here all the time, with ourselves all the time. And you can't win that war with only light. You can't.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Impact Theory. I am here today with somebody who is truly iconic. He is not a trainer. He is the trainer. The one and only Tim Grover. Tim, welcome to the show, man.

[Tim Grover]

Tom, it's an honor to be back.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Dude, I am so excited to be sitting down with you again. I am obsessed with you, your mindset, your books, and the new book, the Unforgiving Race to Greatness.

[Tim Grover]

Yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I was blown away. I have the chills. Literally. Just saying the title of your book gave me chills. It's fantastic. I think we have to define for people because you give a pretty interesting take on what winning is. What is winning?

[Tim Grover]

Winning is not about the trophy and the accolades. It's about the grind. It's about the obstacles. It's about the challenges. It's about the pain that you endure along the way. For that 30 seconds of being able to either stand on the platform, be acknowledged by individuals that are close to you. But when that happens, your mind has to immediately shift back. Because now you felt and tasted something that you can only get through winning. Are you willing to do it again.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Over and over and over? You've trained some of the greatest of the greats. Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Charles Barkley, Dwayne Wade. I mean, just the hall of Fame is chock a block, as my wife would say, with people that you have trained. Um, so you know something about winning, you know something about sustained winning over time. But why do you call it the unforgiving race to greatness?

[Tim Grover]

Well, it's interesting that you said that. I know about winning. The reason I know so much about winning is because I've had to deal with so much losing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's interesting. What do you mean by that?

[Tim Grover]

Everybody wants to win, but in order to know how to win, you got to know how to lose because you're going to lose more than you're going to win. But every time you lose, what do you gain from it? So every time I've lost, people say you got to jump right back up, you know, get back right on your feet again. And I disagree with that. After you lose or when you get knocked down, stay down there for a minute, understand why you lost. What were the reasons? Why are you down here? Why did you lose? Why did you get knocked down? Because if you just jump right back up, you're going to lose again and again, and you continue going to lose the same way. So every time I lost, I stayed down for a second. Minutes, hours, days, weeks. But when I stood up, I was different, I was smarter. And when I lost again, I stayed down. I stood back up, I was stronger. When I lost again, I stayed down. How did I stand up again? I was more confident, lost again, stood up, I was more resilient. Now you start putting the pieces that are necessary to win over and over and over again. So if you lose and you jump right back up and you haven't really changed, I mean really, really changed from that loss, you're never going to learn from it, and you're never going to really, truly know the unforgiving race to greatness. Because that's the. That's part of the unforgiving. Part is the losing part. That part is unforgiving.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I've heard you say, it's so funny how often you give me the chills. I heard you say that. You know, people will tell you, hey, you just Lost. You need to look in the mirror and you'll see the reason that you lost. And you said, that's not true. It's what you don't see in the mirror is why you lost. Ah, the shells again. What. What does that mean? What. What is it? What is it that people don't see?

[Tim Grover]

It's what's really inside of them. So what they're seeing when they look in the mirror, they're just trying to see what's on the surface. But winning and losing wants to know what's inside of you. It wants to know what makes you tick. It wants to know what your desires are. It wants to know what your ego is. It wants to know what your limitations are. It wants to know what your mindset is. It wants to know everything about you. Because winning does not lie when you look in the mirror. You can lie and see what's on the surface, cannot lie what's going on inside. And that's what people are not willing to see. The lies that are truly going on inside of them that are not allowing them to win over and over or sometimes even win once you have to look. Winning requires you to go so far deep inside yourself. It's way beyond the surface. It's way beyond internal. It's going to a place that a lot of people haven't visited in a long, long time because they're afraid to visit that person. Because when they visit that person, they don't know who that person is anymore.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Does this have to do with not wanting to recognize your weaknesses?

[Tim Grover]

It's not wanting to not only recognize your weaknesses, it's not wanting to acknowledge them, not to work on them, not to face them, and also what you have to do to change them. People will point out your weaknesses, but there's a big difference between your weaknesses and your flaws. Your flaws are your gifts. And people are so busy trying to deal with their flaws and change their flaws when their flaws are actually allows them to stay in that race.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can you give me some specifics on that? Like give use yourself. Use mj, Kobe. What were the flaws that they had that were actually unique gifts?

[Tim Grover]

If anybody got a chance to watch the Last dance, Michael said, I have a competitive problem. I have a competition problem. Everything is a competition. Well, for most people, they'd be like, that's his flaw. He's always got to complete. He's always so intense. He's always wound up. But everybody tells him, unwind. You can't tell individuals like yourself, like me, to unwind. That's when we're the most uncomfortable, when we decide to unwind, it's because we want to unwind, not because somebody else tells us to unwind. So when you look at that, when people always say, oh, listen, you're too focused, you should relax, you work too much, you're obsessed. With Kobe, it was always an obsession. You're obsessed. Those are flaws. But those flaws allow you to win over and over and over again. Initially, those may have been weaknesses, but when the individual recognized, you know what? These really aren't my weaknesses. These are the things that allow me to be different. It's what allows me to be unique. Because winning wants you to be different. Winning requires you to do different things. Winning requires you to think. Think in a different way. Winning speaks its own language. Winning has its own way of recognizing you. It's not what this. It's not the same. So winning requires you to be different. But being different scares a lot of people, which people think is a weakness. But once you recognize that difference is one of your greatest flaws, that you have the ability to stand out now, you start to actually see what winning is about, right?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Then talk to me about weakness. One of the things that I found so extraordinary about your story and how you got started with Michael Jordan is that you wrote to every player on the Chicago Bulls except Michael Jordan, saying, hey, I can train you, but only Michael reached back out like that, to me, is such a signal to what greatness is. Why, when he was already on the path to being one of the greatest players in the NBA, why do you think it was him that reached out?

[Tim Grover]

Well, you just brought up the weakness point. He recognized he had a weakness, not a flaw. He had a weakness. And he said, I must figure out how to make this weakness my strength. Now, what a lot of individuals do is they'll take their weakness and make it into their strengths, and. But they stop working on their strengths, and they don't advance all of those things. That's a very key component there. Recognize your weakness. Recognize what you're not good at, what you're not talented at. Do you have the ability to raise that level? And there's some things most people just don't. A lot of the weaknesses you can make, you can work on, but there's some weaknesses that are just your weaknesses. Now, how do you work with those things? You find individuals around you who have your weakness is their strength. And now they can carry you or carry the team, carry the staff, whatever you need in order to still get that win. And we're so worried about hiding our weaknesses and denying the weaknesses from ourselves and from other individuals. And a lot of people won't identify because they get very emotional. When you talk about an individual's weakness and you tell them there becomes a lot of emotion. First time they do is, that's not my weakness. How dare you say that? They get very defensive. They get very, very defensive. And everybody wants, everyone says in any relationship, whether in business, personal, everybody wants the truth. They'll say, please be honest with me. Well, your weakness. When you tell somebody about their weakness and you're being honest with them, they think you're attacking them. All right? And the reason most people feel like you're attacking them is because the individual that's identifying your weakness has the same weakness as you do. And they don't deal with it, but they want you to deal with it because they're hoping if you deal with it, you can help them. And the best way to turn a weakness into a strength is very simple. Find individuals who your weakness is their strength and find out what they did or how you can associate with that individual.

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We'll be right back to the show.

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[Tom Bilyeu]

I've always been blown away by with your strategy is that it's very process driven. It's. It really is. Like when I think about your definition of winning, the whole idea of being relentless, of getting a result no matter what, which is precisely what I find so intoxicating about you, your ideas, your books. Is you would count. So you're tasked with I need to help Michael Jordan or Kobe or whoever do their thing better. You would count steps that they took, whether they jump more off their left leg or their right leg. After having sat in the stadium during the game, you would then go home and watch the game again to do all this counting so that you could then put a regime together for the next day. Like the thought of you doing this game after game is crazy. So that you could tailor the next day's workout to really balance them out. So if they'd overemphasize the left side. We're going to train the right side more. But that's such a. Like that to me, when people really understand how obsessive you have to be to do that night after night, week after week, month after month, like season after season, that really defines what it takes to be so good at what you do that you get the results. Talk to me about that idea of process and just getting sort of that good at what you do.

[Tim Grover]

Well, to me, you know, everyone talks about the process. You know, they say you gotta love the process, you gotta love the process. I agree with that. But I also kind of disagree with that because to me, you have to do the process. The process is non negotiable. It's just, you have to do it, all right? So if you have to do something, I don't have highs about it or lows about it. I know it has to get done. And if I let my emotions get involved in it, all right, it's not going to get done to its best abilities. So if people say you got to love the process and then something comes in the process that you don't really love, because there's no way everybody loves 100% of any process. Look at this beautiful setup that we have here that we're looking at. To set all this up is a very tedious process and how meticulous it has to be. And nobody's here whistling and saying, oh, this is wonderful to do. Let me see how all the lights are. But you have to do it. You have to do it. You take the emotions out of it and you do it. The process is a non negotiable thing. The end result is not always there. That win isn't always there. You can go through the whole process and somebody went through, didn't be as meticulous as you. And they may get that win, because winning has no loyalty to any of us. You know, people that don't work as hard, they end up getting, they end up getting that win. People that aren't as qualified for the job, they end up getting that, they end up getting that win. Do you stop the process? No, you continue to get more maniacal with the process over and over and over again. And part of the process that's so important I talk about this in the winning thing is there's so much information that's out there. When individuals start to do the process, they get in this mind frame of what to think, what to think, what to think. Somebody else is saying this is how the process is supposed to be done. These are the steps that you have to take in each process. And they lose the ability on how to think. No one told me to count Michael's steps. No one told me to say, hey, when he's work, when he's working out, only do 8 reps on this side and do 2 reps on this side. There was no books out there. I mean, this was way before Fitbit and all that other stuff. But I needed to know in order to effectively do the process correctly, if I'm going to go through it, I might as well do it the best of my ability and do it right. So I'm going to go through these steps. These are necessary in order for my client and for myself to know I'm going through the process the way it should be going through, the way I want it to go through so I can get that end result. The process is non negotiable. It's just like you have to do it. I don't care what you do, what you do. You know a lot of routines in the morning that people go through. It's a process that's a process to get you either closer to winning or.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Farther in the book, you personify winning that you'll make little comments about. You know, oh, you were describing a workout one time and you were telling the reader, if it doesn't sound hard, why don't you go ahead and try it? And I think you'll hear winning chuckling over in the background at how painful this is. And there were a number and in fact you just said, winning isn't loyal to any of us. And this idea, like, there's a few ideas I want to tease apart because they're what make this book so magical. So there's the idea of winning. Winning is an entity that you can think of as personified that is fickle, that has no loyalty, but yet is extraordinarily powerful. And when you meet together and are able to pull out the wind, there's. There's nothing like it, right? That greatness is table stakes for winning. It is, it is just. It has to be like there's no option. There's no way around it. You can fight it, you can think it unfair, you can do whatever you want. But that's what has to happen for. For you to meet winning and for that moment to, you know, to have that victory. And that idea of being an unforgiving race, that greatness doesn't care, that greatness isn't loyal, that greatness has these huge demands of people and that to win, there is an element of obsession that some people will say, in fact, I'll ask the question this way. Given how fickle a mistress winning is, is it mental illness to pursue it?

[Tim Grover]

I think it's mental illness not to pursue it. Go on. Right. I think that the illness is. What is an illness? An illness doesn't make you feel well. It's taking away your health, it's taking away your livelihood. It's taking your ability to see things that are right there. All right? So winning not to pursue your win. And people have to understand this about winning. We win every single day. There wins out there all the time. Our ability to see those wins, to process those wins, to understand them. All right? That's what makes the mind sharp. That's what keeps you focused. That's what keeps you alive. The illness is not to pursue something every day that gives you a feeling like nothing else can't. And this is. This isn't about financial security. This isn't about monetary success. This isn't. This isn't about having shiny things. Winning is in so many different forms. Raising your kids, being able to get your message out to individuals. Those are winning. Being able to be a teacher and never leave any student behind. Those are wins. So the illness is not to be obsessed with those things. The illness is not to be focused. The illness is not to want something better for yourself. The illness is not to want something better for the individuals around you. The illness is not to be the best person that you can be every single day. The illness is not to pursue what's so special to you.

[Tom Bilyeu]

There's this idea I think about that I call the physics of being human. So there are just certain things that are true about the human mind. So the human mind will reward certain things and punish other things. And part of the reason that I think your work is so important is you're one of the few people that seem to be truly aligned with the truth of the human experience. And by that I mean to put these two ideas together that I think the human mind rewards everybody, everybody, without exception. You will be subconsciously rewarded through neurochemistry for the perception, pursuits of improvement to get great. To take your potential and turn it to actual usable skill set. So to your point, whether you're a teacher or whether you're an athlete, it doesn't matter. There's a subconscious routine running in the human brain that compels you through reward and punishment, to take potential and make it manifest into something Real that you can do something with. And if you fail to do that through whatever argument you give yourself, you will be subconsciously punished. Through neurochemistry, you'll feel emptiness. You'll feel a lack of purpose, a lack of meaning. And when you talk about, like, hey, there needs to be something in your life where you're pursuing that victory, you're pursuing the win. You're going after it with everything you have. Does that. Does that line up with how you think about it?

[Tim Grover]

Yes. The experience you get, the feeling that you get from winning, you can't even describe it. One of the things I think that keeps people from those things, from being able to get that mindset, from being able to get that neurochemical change in the brain, and being able to feel that confidence. And winning gives you that confidence. Every time you get that chemical change, you get that hit. From every little win that you get, your level of confidence goes up. Your level of confidence continues. It continues to rise. It gives you the ability to have more wins. And the crazy thing is, when you look at it, for most individuals, especially for myself, confidence is one of. It's like the ultimate drug. It's like the ultimate drug. But you know who the dealer is. Winning is the dealer. Winning is the dealer. So if you keep getting those hits over and over and over again, that means you're winning. As small as it may be, you're winning. Get you a little step closer to whatever you want. It gets you a little step closer to that mindset that we all have the ability to have. That's the crazy part we all have. This isn't about playing basketball like Michael Jordan did. Like late, great Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade. This is about having the mindset and being able to think and process information and do things and get that chemical hit that we all have the ability of every single day. And we try tricks, you know, so, you know, I'm a. Well, I shouldn't say tricks. You know, these things do work, but they don't work as well. All right, I'm going to take a cold shower. I'm going to jump in the ice tub. I'm going to do that. Everybody's looking for, like, something they only have to do for a quick two minutes. You know, if I go in there and I stand under this cold water and I bear, oh, man, this is. And they think, yeah, that's. That might be a small victory, but what's the ultimate goal towards the end of it? Are you just trying to shortchange that two minute thing for something that's you don't really want to do the whole process to get that hit that's naturally can be converted over and over and over again every time you win.

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[Tom Bilyeu]

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[Tim Grover]

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[Tom Bilyeu]

The way when I was reading your book, the idea that seemed self evident to me is that you can't opt out of playing the game. So life, the human experience and I suppose the only way to truly opt out would be suicide. So let's set that aside. You can't opt out of it, so you're going to play. And so now it's just a question of if I'm right, that the human mind has a subconscious process that's running that rewards you for pursuing, getting better at something and punishes you for not having purpose, not pursuing anything. And you can't opt out of the game. Now you're either going to feel good or bad based on whether you pursue something. And when I introduce people to you, there's sort of two camps. There's people that read, you watch, you listen, you listen to. You see the things that you've done, the people that you've helped, and they are transformed by it. And it gives them the chills the way that it gives me the chills. And then there's other people that are like, ah. He focuses on the dark side. It's dark energy. Like, oh, this is crazy. And honestly, there's an ache in my heart for people that discount that. That have not sort of looked in the mirror and embraced the reality of the human experience, as far as I can tell, which is, you will be subconsciously rewarded for going after this, leveraging every tool you have, including the dark side, which seems just so obviously real, even if it's just taking a cold shower.

[Tim Grover]

It's what you said, Every tool you have. And most people will not use every single tool they have.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Why is that?

[Tim Grover]

Because they're afraid. They don't know how to control it. They don't want to acknowledge it. They are afraid of being judged. They want to stand out. They want to be different. They want women to acknowledge them. But they have so much doubt of what greatness and the unforgiving race actually requires to win over and over again. We all have fear. We all have fear, but these individuals have so much doubt. Before we started this, you were talking about, oh, I was watching one of your past interviews. I was on tv and people you were like, they were like, oh, man, you come out on. You come here and you're never nervous. You've been doing this for so long and you have no fear. And you're like, no. Every time I come out here, I don't care. How many shows have you done now over the years?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Hundreds.

[Tim Grover]

Hundreds. There's always a fear to see sit in here. But you never have any doubt. What a cool way to say it. Never have any doubt of what the outcome is going to be. Those individuals that won't tap into everything that they have. And there's a. So the dark side is just because of the way I phrase it, they think it's this evil and it's this bad thing, and it's not. It's not. Think about the times where everything was going wrong, nothing was going right. What kept you going? What kept you going when there was no friends around, there was no family, you were in that place. What kept you going? That was your dark energy. That was your Dark side. And think about this. When does a new day start? At midnight. Is it light or dark out? Dark. So if you. If a new day starts in the dark, why. Why are you afraid to have use your dark side for your new beginnings? Whoa.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Whoa.

[Tim Grover]

It's not an evil thing. It's an evil thing if you don't recognize it. It's an evil thing if you allow it to become destructive. If it's an. It's an evil thing if you use it for excuses, but if you harness it and it takes you to places that you. You couldn't even imagine. And every single winner in all folks in all forms of life, they may not talk about it, but they've all tapped into that energy. The light energy, the dark energy, the subconscious energy, the conscious energy. They use all. They use everything. They use everything. And in order to have winning, winning requires you to do and use everything. Because you don't know one day if winning. Not even a day. You don't know from minute to minute if winning is going to wear a halo or it's going to meet you with fangs. And if you can't deal with the halo, you definitely can't deal with the fangs. You can't deal with the fangs, you can't deal with the halo. And they may require different energy. They may require different energy. Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

The thing that I'm obsessed with is getting people to understand that nature has given you tools. I won't say whether they're good or bad tools, but rage is a tool. Anger exists for a reason. Aggression exists for a reason. And there it feels different. And so I understand how the words sort of light energy, dark energy come to be. Star wars has always been such a cool take on that, where there's. There's a seduction to the dark side and there's. There are moments of time where that's going to be the thing that you need in that moment to get you through. I try to spend 80% of my time in the light and think of the beautiful things that I'm trying to create in the world. And that keeps me going until it doesn't. And then when it's dark and I'm scared and I'm broken and just exhausted, in those moments, it's thinking about the people that actively want me to fail. It's shifting over into an aggressive energy. It's shifting over into rage. And if you think about how you would react if somebody attacked the ones that you love, it wouldn't be with diplomacy. It would be with ferocity.

[Tim Grover]

Yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And to me, it's like acknowledging that millions of years of evolution have led to the moment where in a moment of crisis, what presents itself to you is aggression, is dominance, is rage, is attack. And if in those moments, people view that as a thing to not be touched, a tool not to be used, that to me is a mistake.

[Tim Grover]

It's a huge mistake. People say you got to attack your goals, all right? But you gotta. You gotta control your feelings. They label us with all these different things that when it's to get what we want, it's always gotta be in a positive light. A positive light, A positive light. But when you have individuals like you said that trying to attack you, that attack you personally, that attack your work ethic, that attack your success, that are trying to take away everything that you've worked so hard to get to get. Are you only going to use the light, or are you going to use your aggression? Are you going to use your controlled rage? Are you going to use those things to protect you? And if you haven't acknowledged your dark side and you haven't tapped into it and realize what it is and acknowledge it, just like winning has no loyalty and winning doesn't know your name, it's going to say, hey, I don't know who you are. To me, anger is what is a reaction to what somebody else said to you. It creates an emotion, all right? The dark side turns your anger into controlled rage. Now you're in control. You're in control now. How long can you stay in control? That's the difference. Are you going to burn out right away? All of a sudden you just let out all this rage? Or do you know how to control it and place it in the right places, not only to win the battle, but to win that war? And we literally have a war going on every single moment. It may not be out in here, but there's a war that goes on in here all the time, with ourselves, all the time. And you can't win that war with only light. You can't, man.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I agree so ferociously that it's one of those things. Whenever I talk about it, people get super weird. There is a high level of discomfort that people have around that idea, but I think that it's so powerful that failing to use it is sort of an acknowledgment of sort of lowering what is possible.

[Tim Grover]

Yes, yes. And the people that get uncomfortable usually have the darkest sides. They just don't. They just. They've never had. They feel like they're getting caught. They're like they're trying to hide it. They're like. Now all of a sudden they're like, whoa, somebody just. He's just talking it. I didn't know anybody else was like this. There's a lot of people out there like this. And people only get acknowledged for it for all the destructive behavior that happens. And they don't really get acknowledged for all the good that happens with it and the people that have the ability to tap into that and get to not only help themselves, but help everybody around you.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So to me, it's really a question of meaning and purpose when I think about. So Lisa and I obviously part paused for a very brief second and said, okay, we've now had the kind of financial success. We said we'd never work again on something that we didn't love if we hit this sort of dollar amount. And luckily before that, I had realized that this is really just a game of neurochemistry. It really, like life, full stop, is just how you feel about yourself and your life when you're by yourself. And so I knew I needed to engage in something that mattered. And this is why talking to you is always so powerful to me is you've got this setup where meaning and purpose matters. Without it, there will be not just something missing in your life. It will be a sucking wound of a void like you with everything you have. You must address it. And if you look at the opioid pandemic, basically that is what happens when people have no meaning, no purpose in their life. They fill it with something with neuro cocktail, right? So I knew that I needed to re.

[Ad Voice]

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[Tom Bilyeu]

But when I think about engaging in a way that gives me the neurochemical cocktail that I want, it really is going really, really hard for something. And I can acknowledge that that does not seem completely universal. Some people don't have sort of the level that I have to take it to and like, I'm obsessed and. But it is. If people look at me and they're sad, right, at how hard I work and how much I've given up for what I love, I will flip that and say the reason they think that is because they don't know what it feels like to pursue something that hard. And even though I know winning, doesn't know my name, doesn't care about me, there's no loyalty. The pursuit of real glory, like just the pursuit, pursuit of it is in and of itself an intoxicant and is thoroughly joyful.

[Tim Grover]

Most people don't want to even get in the race because what you just explained to them, they're afraid of it. They're afraid of success. They're afraid of how good that's going to feel because it's something unique to them. It's something different. It's something they want. It's something they want to pursue. But in order to get in this unforgiving race, you're going to have to leave a lot of things behind. You have to leave a lot of. You have to leave a lot of people behind. You'd have to leave a lot of feelings behind. You can leave a lot of emotions behind. So the best way to describe those individuals is. And this is why you have a hard time, I won't say relating to them, but just understanding their thinking, because we relate to people in different ways all the time. Is those individuals, their feelings are stronger than their mind. And your. And for us, our minds are stronger than our feelings. So you think about the success that you had previously. Your feelings could have said, you don't need to get out of bed anymore. You, Lily, if you chose every single day, you're like, your feelings could have said, why do you have to work more? Stay in bed. Your mind got you out of bed every single day because your mind was stronger than your feelings, because you knew what your real purpose was, where your real win was. Even though you won previously, that may have not been your actual, actual pursuit of the win that you wanted. You. You won that one and you like what's next. There's always a next. So your mind was stronger than your feelings. Your mind allowed you to make that decision. Feelings make people overthink, over, should I do this? Should I not get in the race? It's going to be too hard. So they already talk themselves. They talk themselves out of it. Most individuals, your mind will make a decision, say, we're going to. We're going to do this. Your feelings always make suggestions. You always. They're always giving a suggestion. They're always kind of analyzing things. They're trying to see. Try to see what. What's happening. What. What's going to go on. All right. When you fail, your feelings give you excuses. Your mind makes you more resilient.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You've given up a lot, personally to play this game, to strive for winning. You told a story in the book that I hadn't heard before, which really hit me, which is you were packing to go.

[Tim Grover]

Yes.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And your daughter walked in. Tell us that story. This is. This is Tim Grover in a nutshell. To me, the unflinching here's the truth of it. Don't have to play if you don't want to, but here's what it costs if you want to play. And, yeah.

[Tim Grover]

So my work, when I was working with my professional athletes, it required me to do a lot of traveling, a lot of leaving at short notice. And this story gets me every time. So when people say it didn't hurt, it still hurts. I was packing for a trip. My daughter walks into her room. She says, dad, why do you travel so much? I said, sweetheart, this is how I provide for the family. This is how I take care of you and Mom. This is how I put food on the table. She looks at me, says, daddy, if I eat less, will you stay home more? Now, people would think in a fairy tale, or most people would say, I unpacked my suitcase. I'm not going to take this trip. Let's go grab some ice cream or, let's go out. I kept packing. I kept packing. Why? I had to set an example for her early of what it meant to win and what you have to leave behind sometimes in order to pursue what's unique to you. And I wanted her to understand that this is who I am. I can't be anybody else. I always want you to see the real dad, the real person. And I want to set an example for you. And I was fortunate enough that those sacrifices that I did make early, I had a conversation with her later on to tell her why I did all those things. In the middle of the conversation, she stopped me. She goes, I get it. I understand. She saw the results. She saw how it brought us closer together. She understood my dedication to my craft and what it took to excel and what it took to be different and what it took to stand by unpopular decisions of others, knowing that every successful person that I've met, every successful person that I know, had to make those decisions over and over again that affect other individuals that are so close and so dear to them.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What do you say to people that hear that story and think, oh, Tim, you were so close, you could have had the fairy tale moment. All you had to do was unpack, take her out for ice cream. What is it that they don't understand?

[Tim Grover]

You ever watch a fairy tale?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yes.

[Tim Grover]

All right. There's a lot of unforgiving, dark places, bad decisions that go on, bad moments in a fairy tale, and it doesn't always end the way everybody wants it to end. My ending of a fairy tale is different than somebody else's. It's my story. I have the ability to change It I have the ability to decide who's going to star in it, whether I'm going to be the main figure or at times I'm going to let somebody else. Don't give that power to somebody else. You have too many individuals out there that are not writing their own story. They're letting other people write those stories for them. Winning wants you to write your own story because only you can tell your story the way winning is going to understand it, the way your true self is going to be. Acknowledge it to everybody else and say, listen, I may not agree with everything that you've done and I don't accept, expect people to do. There's not a single successful person that I know where everybody's going to agree with 100 of their decisions. But you have to respect that individual for doing things that they wanted to do, how they wanted to do it, and their ability to win over and over again.

[Tom Bilyeu]

If you had 60 seconds to tell the generation coming up now who want to be great what they should do to make that real, what would you say?

[Tim Grover]

If I had 60 seconds, I would tell them that stop looking for steps. Stop looking for things that say, five steps to winning, ten steps to greatness, eight steps to success. Those steps are infinite and they're constantly changing. And just because you can't see them doesn't mean they're not there. Find your own path to winning. Because as the late, great Kobe Bryant said, winning is everything. Winning is everything. The way it makes you feel, the way it makes your family feel, the way you feel when your children win, the way you feel when your significant others win, the way you feel when you've touched other lives and they win. Those steps are infinite, but you got to trust yourself that they're there. And sometimes you gotta run up those stairs, sometimes you gotta crawl up those stairs. And sometimes you get all the way to the top and you gotta start all over again.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Such is the nature of winning.

[Tim Grover]

Yes, it is.

[Tom Bilyeu]

My man. Thank you so much for coming on. Where can people connect with you?

[Tim Grover]

My website is tim grover.com social media handle is imgrover.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Nice and easy. There it is, guys. I'm telling you, this is. I would call him a legend, but he's not a legend. He's an icon. This man knows how to think. Read the book. Winning. It is extraordinary. I have said off camera and I will say now on camera, winning is like another number one hit from the same album that Relentless came from. If you like that one, winning is going to blow. Your mind is absolutely phenomenal. His advice will change your life if you let it. And I hope each and every one of you will pursue winning in your own way. And speaking of things that will help you win, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care.

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[Tom Bilyeu]

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