← Tom Bilyeu's Impact Theory
Tom Bilyeu's Impact Theory
MATING CRISIS: The Biggest Problems Keeping Men & Women SINGLE... | Stephan Speaks
02:02:32
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- [00:00]
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- [01:01]
Tom Bilyeu
What's up guys? I am really excited to have relationship expert Stephan Speaks joining me for this episode. He is a best selling author and speaker who has captured the attention of hundreds of millions of men and women on his YouTube channel by helping them find and maintain healthier relationships. Stephan and I had a ton of chemistry together and I think this episode is fantastic. And today we're talking all about how men attract high value women, the importance of not being shamed by the Internet standards of dating, and the Andrew Tate phenomenon. I hope you guys enjoy listening to this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it. And if you do, please leave a review. It really is the best way to support the podcast so that we can help other people just like you reach their potential and be legendary. I'm Tom Bilyeu and welcome to Impact Theory. Stephan Speaks. Welcome to the show.
- [01:52]
Stephan Speaks
Thank you for having me.
- [01:54]
Tom Bilyeu
I'm excited to have you, man. I've seen all the stuff that you've done with Lisa on Women of Impact and I want to get into modern dating. What's happening now? As somebody who's been in my marriage now for 20 years, it's like it's a real thing. Thank you. So guys that are going after high value women and are struggling to get them, what are they doing wrong? Are they chasing too much? They're not chasing enough? What should they be doing?
- [02:20]
Stephan Speaks
Well, I think the first thing might be how they define high value woman.
- [02:24]
Tom Bilyeu
Okay.
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Stephan Speaks
You know, and so I think some men may be placing value in the wrong things. And the high value woman to a lot of men is about how attractive she is. And though, of course, I believe attraction is extremely important, you can't overlook that. I do think some men get blinded by it, and it causes them to overlook other important issues and potential red flags within this woman, which sets them up for a lot of failure. But so, depending on how we define it, I do think there's become sort
- [02:56]
Tom Bilyeu
of a pop culture way of defining it. One of the things I want to talk to you about is not Andrew Tate, but the Andrew Tate phenomenon. So he's speaking to something that caught me off guard. So the young men that you see on the other side of this camera were. They were asking me if I knew who he was. I was like, I have no idea who that is. Like, you should really listen to him. And then I listened to him and I was mortified. And they were like, but look how big he is. And so he's speaking to something that is. It was very surprising to me. And so the idea of a high value woman as it's being talked about in culture now, can you give us, like a quick primer on that and then what it is about that that you think culture is getting right and what is culture getting wrong?
- [03:46]
Stephan Speaks
Well, I think so. To be completely honest, I haven't gotten the full definition of high value women from the Internet because I've heard different things. So there hasn't been this consensus that I have yet to hear. Now, from looking at it from the Andrew Tate perspective, I do believe it includes things like a woman who doesn't have much of a past, you know, someone who's highly attracted.
- [04:10]
Tom Bilyeu
Not a lot of sexual partners.
- [04:11]
Stephan Speaks
Yes. Not a lot of sexual partners to some of these guys. No, no sexual partners at all. Seems to be the requirement. Now, someone, of course, who is attractive, then of course, I know the one consensus is her being feminine, or what they say is cooperative, being willing to be. They actually use that word? Yes, they use the word cooperative. Cooperative, yes.
- [04:32]
Tom Bilyeu
Nice. That's a polite way to say it. Okay.
- [04:35]
Stephan Speaks
So I think those are some of the ingredients to high value women, women that they're proposing. Now, I think we can look at high value women also from the perspective of. Because so before Andrew Tate, there was Kevin Samuels, and he kind of got the. The term high value really going on the Internet in today's culture. And so one of the things some of me and my colleagues discussed was that you could look at high value as the individuals who have the doors open easier for them to the opposite sex. All right. Now, the thing is, if you look at it that way, it really separates the fact that high value does not equate to good person. It's not an automatic thing because a woman can be extremely beautiful and have doors open for her everywhere. But it doesn't mean she's a good person. It doesn't mean she's going to be a good partner. All right, so again, it depends on where men are placing their value. But if we just go with the feminine cooperative, looks good, doesn't have a past, things of that nature. I think for a lot of men, where they're going wrong is that they are not figuring out the life they want to live first. So one of the dangers of what's happening on the Internet, in my opinion today, is there's this constant push of, well, you have to make X amount of money to be somebody. You have to make X amount of money to get this great woman. And yes, finances play a significant role in relationships. We can't deny that. And women desire financial stability. However, if that doesn't align with who you are as a man, you're asking for trouble. So it's like a guy has to be real with himself. If he's a simple living guy and would be happy. Just let's just say I'm throwing out the numbers, 60,000 a year. But he lives in a town where 60,000 gets him by perfectly fine, has a roof over his head, food on his plate, and he can find him a partner who loves him, who he aligns with and can be happy with. He doesn't need to push to that higher over six figure level because people don't understand there's a sacrifice that comes with that and everyone's not wired for that. And even when you look at it from the woman, from what you're looking for in a woman perspective, some of these men want this extremely beautiful woman. But can you handle that? Does she fit your lifestyle? Because if you're a frugal man, for example, and this very beautiful woman likes spending money, that's going to be a huge conflict in your relationship. And so you have some men who go out of their way to impress this type of woman, to capture her attention, but then not really being honest about the fact that they can't sustain this. And then when they can't sustain it and she starts to feel some kind of way and get mad when. Well, now it's women are ungrateful, women are this. But it's like, wait a minute, you sold her on something that you can't keep up. It's almost like if you got With a woman, and she started having sex with you, and she was your bonafide freak. She did everything you wanted. Right? And you loved it. And then two months in, it was like, oh, no, I can't keep doing that. That's too much. I just did that to make you happy and to get you, but now that I got you, it's done. You would be pissed off. So I think a lot of men are not defining what kind of life they really want to live, what kind of life they can sustain, which then will determine what kind of woman fits into their life. And then whether she's considered high value or not by society, she will be high value to you because she will be able to bring you happiness and peace.
- [08:04]
Tom Bilyeu
Okay, so it sounds like you're coming at this from a different angle, and I think it's worth really starting to tease these ideas out. So we have what. And this is how it feels from the outside culture is painting a picture of what relationships are that I think is dysfunctional at the level of definition, and that if you accept their definition, you're. You're headed to misery. So I would say at the cultural level, the idea of the. The popular way that the quote unquote manosphere paints this picture, whether it's Tate or fresh and fit, all the things that my team has introduced me to, it's adversarial.
- [08:41]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah.
- [08:42]
Tom Bilyeu
And my thing is, the reason my marriage works is that it's not adversarial. We look at each other like real partners and equals. Now. We have very different skill sets. I think men and women are very different temperamentally. On average, of course, they're overlapping averages. So at the extremes, it gets very different. In the middle, there's a lot of overlap. So you might have a woman who is more masculine than a lot of guys, and you might have a guy that's more feminine than a lot of women. But nonetheless, when you take it all on average, you're better off betting that a guy will be more traditionally masculine, be more traditionally feminine. And so at least understanding sort of the natural leanings can be very helpful. But we don't see ourselves as adversarial. So that's one of these things where I think it's important to your point to get the definitions right, to figure out, okay, what is it that I value in a woman?
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Stephan Speaks
And then.
- [09:32]
Tom Bilyeu
Or maybe even a relationship is a more important way to think about it. And then there are going to be traits that a woman will bring into the relationship, but the relationship is the thing that you share. And so understanding how each of the people are going to react in the sort of chemical soup that is a relationship becomes really important. But then there's this new idea that you're introducing which is that you also have to be honest about not averages and all of that, but what you like very specifically, which is I talk a lot about your goal, makes demands. So if you want to be a gold medalist in the summer Olympics for swimming, then you're going to have to practice swimming a lot, your diet's going to have to be a certain way, all that. And so if you want the $60,000 lifestyle and you're looking for a low maintenance life, you're going to need somebody that's low maintenance by nature. And so that's going to make demands in the pool of women that you pursue.
- [10:28]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [10:29]
Tom Bilyeu
So that's very interesting. So now we have, if you agree, we need to be thoughtful about how we define value compatibility, whatever words we're using, we need to be thoughtful about that. But then we also have to realize that there is no one size fits all. And so we have to know what we're going for.
- [10:48]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah, because I mean, at the end of the day, again, there's a lot of men aspiring or buying into what the Internet is selling them when it's not really true to who they are.
- [10:59]
Tom Bilyeu
Why do they fall prey to that? Because I think there's a reason.
- [11:02]
Stephan Speaks
Well, they fall prey because they don't know who they are to begin with.
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Tom Bilyeu
And so what cues are they picking up on just what their friends tell them is cool?
- [11:08]
Stephan Speaks
Well, I think so. It's a combination of, yes, they're picking up on what society friends. But also the other side of it is men are being shamed sometimes for not aspiring to that higher level. So basically, if you don't want that six figures, well, what's wrong with you? You're not good, you know, you're weak, you're this. If you want love. You know, a lot of men are not honest about how much they want a relationship and value having a woman in their life because they don't want to be called a simp or they don't want to be made that they're looked at as a beta male or something. And it's like, so people are not being true to who they are and what they truly desire and they're letting the Internet fool them. Because the crazy part is the Internet stuff doesn't represent the majority. What people fail to understand is a lot of the content that is being put out there is based on the idea that these women want this high value man who is a part of at most 10%. And I don't think it's 10%, 3% of men out there. So are you really trying to strive to be that 3%? Everyone can't be that 3%. There's nothing wrong with that. We're not all built to be that. Again, you may not be happy. Like, we have to understand, even in business, there's moments where you could do some things and make you a lot more money. But then you have to ask yourself, is the sacrifice worth it? Is the extra headache worth it? Is the extra content I have to push out there worth it? Do I want to lose my peace of mind for these extra dollars? And sometimes you realize no. Again, whether it's because you just don't aspire to those things or you're just not wired for that, you don't find your happiness there. Like there was, I don't know if it was a Chinese proverb or something, but there was this story I saw on the Internet where there's this rich guy, he sees this man in this village, right? And the guy's like fishing every day. He goes out to fish and whatever. And so the guy's like, well, why don't you build your business and do all these things? And long story short, the village guy was just like, so you're doing all this work for what? So you can one day be free so that you can fish and have free time like me? I already have that. I don't need to do all this extra work. I'm happy where I am. So I just think that people aren't taking time to know themselves, are letting this idea of feeling shamed or being guilted into thinking they have to do it a certain kind of way really confuse them. And also because again, people are not considering what is the sacrifice that comes with trying to acquire certain things. So another analogy I like to use is like, everyone wants a really nice car. So there's tons of people who want, let's say a Rolls Royce. But are you going to be happy making that payment? Are you going to be happy with the maintenance? Are you going to be happy with the attention that you might get in this car that isn't what you really think it's going to be. Some of you will realize that it's not worth it at that point. And you'll be happier in your Corolla, you'll be happier in your Sentra, whatever. You know, people aren't going to believe
- [14:11]
Tom Bilyeu
you though, until they try it. This is one of the things that is utterly fascinating about money. So money's super powerful. It's more powerful than most people think, but it can't touch your sense of self, which is what they think it will do. They think it will make them feel cool and it won't. Yeah, Part of what I think is going on in a modern dating environment. So one what you put your finger on seems very true to me that society is celebrating certain things and you want to do the things that society celebrates. It feels good to be in alignment with that. But the other part is a hot girl triggers something in your limbic brain like, dude, I am Captain Faithful and I know that my wife will watch this interview. So I want everybody to be very comfortable with everything I'm about to say. But I'm Captain Faithful. It matters to me a lot to run. So we all get one life. The experiment that I'm running is what does your life look like when you share it with one person? And so that's the whole thing. So it doesn't mean that I'm not attracted to other people. I am 100% and I've always been honest with my wife about that. But dude, when you see an attractive young woman, it grabs a part of your brain and yes, I mean brain. And it squeezes it and it just like it has your attention in this really hard way. And I've had those moments where I'm like, wow. I actually get how people that can't control their emotions get themselves in trouble because I think it was Sam Harris that pointed something out and they were debating about who has more power, men or women. And if it wasn't Sam, forgive me, Sam, but I think it was where he was like, hold on a minute. I'm not sure that there's as much discrepancy in power as people think. You could never get a woman to throw away her life on a man because he looked good. But you can get a billionaire to throw away a 30 year marriage, kids for sex. And so I think going back to what's happening now is this starts to get complicated any second where you like. That doesn't make sense to me. By all means, jump in.
- [16:17]
Stephan Speaks
Okay.
- [16:17]
Tom Bilyeu
But you've got this. Society has stopped reinforcing traditional male values. Being a traditional guy has become very frowned upon. It's toxic masculinity. There's no thing for people to look up to. We have a fatherless crisis. The number of young men having sex is Plummeting. While we very much needed to get out of the toxic soup that was Harvey Weinstein and all that. Now there's like a lot of fear in the mix as well. Like if I make the wrong. Like when I think about how I hit on my wife for the first time, would never do that now. But it ended up getting me my wife. And it was quite playful, but it just, it was too. Yeah, it was walking a fine line and that's what made it enticing to her. But it's. If it had been amiss, if I had misread the woman that was receptive to that, it would have been bad. So you get this milieu now where guys are just like, they're pulling out of the race, right? And you get part of the Tate phenomenon. Again, I'm not interested in the person, I'm interested in the phenomenon. Part of that phenomenon is just be a man, be hard, stand up, take care of yourself, be a badass, be dominant, be aggressive. And all of a sudden, the things you've always secretly, not secretly, you have a biological imperative to find that interesting. So the second somebody presents that, it's like, ooh. Like that feels better than this fearful, anxiety ridden vibe that I've been sitting in. Growing up without a strong role model. All of a sudden, somebody in a Instagram filtered life is showing me money, emotional stability, dominance, all these things that I want to be. And then they're telling me, and this is the relationship that you should have with women. So it's like, wow, that actually does sound a lot better. I be dominant, she's submissive, she's beautiful. No past all of that and coupled with, and I need to make money and all this. So it's, it's a whole dream that's sold and it has enough real hooks that people go for it. Going back to money, people will always, Stephan, and I mean always pursue fame and money. No matter how many people get ruined by fame and money, people will still pursue it. So I was like, why? And the answer is, because fame and money are real. They're useful. Money is the great facilitator. You can build anything you want. You can get anybody to do anything within their code of ethics. I think we'd all agree with that. If you pay them enough money and it's within their code of ethics, they'll do it. So I won't say some people, I'm sure, will do things outside of their code of ethics, but even set that aside. But for the right amount of money, if the thing that you want to do is honorable. You can get. People will just do it, man. It's really incredible and it's quite beautiful, to be honest. Impact theory has come about and helped millions of people because I had the capital to see it through. Amazing. Fame is influence. So people want to help you, they want to be around you, they want to do things for you. There's a dark side to both, but like there's enough real there that people are always going for it. And so when you paint this picture, which given the certainly the state of masculinity, there's enough real hooks in it that you can then also set them up for catastrophic failure in their relationships because you make it adversarial.
- [19:43]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah. And I think so. There's a few ways, a few things I want to talk about with that one. I do think, as far as it being adversarial, the problem is that men are not being taught balance. So, meaning it's this hyper masculine be all these things. But the reality is that if you want a healthy relationship, you have to tap into your feminine energy. We all possess it. We all have feminine and masculine. I look at it as. We all have testosterone and estrogen, plain and simple. And to be able to be loving, compassionate things that you need for a healthy relationship, you have to consider the balance that comes with it. So it reminds me of the fact of. Have you ever read the book the Game by Neil Strauss?
- [20:25]
Tom Bilyeu
No, but I know of it well
- [20:26]
Stephan Speaks
enough that, okay, so you know, he was a. He became a pickup artist and he learned how to get all these women in bed.
- [20:32]
Tom Bilyeu
I interviewed Neil.
- [20:33]
Stephan Speaks
Oh, you did not for that though.
- [20:35]
Tom Bilyeu
For the post like transition that he goes on.
- [20:39]
Stephan Speaks
And so in the book, he explains how he reaches the point. And this is what I believe is the problem and why I'm starting to do more content for men. Because no matter how much these men can even get into a mindset of, okay, well, I'm going to sleep around and do this and do that. Almost every man, if not every man, will have a point in his life where he meets a woman that makes him say, this is the one I want. And now what happens is. And what happened to Neil was that he was so used to using his tips and tricks for picking up women, it wasn't working on the woman that he wanted. So, for example, you, you know, one of the techniques is negging, so the backhand compliments. Right. And so though that does elicit a reaction out of a woman at that moment, you're essentially Planting a seed of insecurity, of doubt, of fear that if you try to have a relationship with her, it's going to cause a problem. So a lot of these men don't understand the balance of, yes, walk in your masculine, but you have to be able to tap into your feminine to where you can bring love and safety and security to your partner. And again, be honest with yourself about what do you really want? Because no matter what personality on the Internet is claiming this, that and the other, will you be happy with that in the long term? There's a lot of people, like I believe there's guys out there who are just relationship guys. They just want relationship. They don't care to be sleeping around, dating this one and that one. They want stability. Those men need to be honest with themselves. Now there are some men out there who they enjoy having variety and being around. Okay, if that's your choice as an adult male and you're being honest with these women, cool. I just don't want people out there lying and playing games. But if you're being clear and honest, so be it. But there's so many more men, I believe, who are the relationship guys who just want that woman they can be with and share life with. I think another thing to consider is that when we talked about how less men now, less younger men are having sex and they're not going after the women like they used to. And I do believe the whole, you know, the me too thing impacted men being willing and brave enough in certain ways to approach women. I think a huge issue that we're overlooking is the lack of testosterone in men.
- [22:57]
Tom Bilyeu
And so like the actual literal decline.
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Stephan Speaks
Yes. So from my understanding, I don't have the exact stats, but I know I've seen research that says we now have 20 year old men whose testosterone rivals a 60 year old male back in the 60s.
- [23:11]
Tom Bilyeu
Legitimately terrifying.
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Stephan Speaks
Okay. And that these are the lowest levels of testosterone ever. So bad that the old scale of a healthy male used to be 500 to 900. I believe that was in the 60s as well.
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Tom Bilyeu
Sounds about right.
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Stephan Speaks
Now they've dropped it to 300 to 800 because they're accommodating the lower levels. But the problem is they're making you think it's normal. So you go to the doctor and you find out you're 320. He's like, oh, you're fine, you don't need any help.
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Tom Bilyeu
Any other time in history you'd be chronically low.
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Stephan Speaks
Exactly, exactly. And testosterone is the lifeblood of masculinity. To me, because that's where you gain. If you fix your hormones and you fix your health, you will become more focused, you will become more driven, you will become more assertive. You know, you will have more confidence to approach women. Plus, your drive and desire for women will increase because that testosterone, that libido has increased. Now, I think also another issue is porn. All right, I think porn has really desensitized a lot of men and again, has taken the fire out of a lot of them. Because now when you have those natural urges and desires, you can just go to your computer. Before you had to figure out how to talk to a woman, like, you
- [24:27]
Tom Bilyeu
had no choice, not even just talk to her. This is really interesting. You had to find a way to impress her.
- [24:31]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [24:32]
Tom Bilyeu
You had to become worthy of.
- [24:34]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
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Tom Bilyeu
Sex, which is a big. Used to be a big barrier to entry.
- [24:39]
Stephan Speaks
Yes, absolutely. And that's also why I think we've seen such a decline in marriage rates as well. Because once upon a time, that was the place you were going to get consistent sex. And so you had to build yourself up as a man. But now, again, you have so many other outlets. Dating has made it easier. Porn has made it easier. And then again, you already have men who are not as healthy as they used to be. So they naturally lack a drive within them. Them to make things happen. So I think it's all these things together are causing a problem. But to get back to your point about it being adversarial, what they're hearing about right now, I think the unfortunate truth. There's two unfortunate truths if I'm going to keep it real. One, I think there's a lot of men on the Internet who are speaking out of a lack of healing and bitterness. And so they're adversarial because their mindset is, I'm going to make these women pay for. For overlooking me. I'm going to make them pay for not choosing me or choosing this guy over me.
- [25:39]
Tom Bilyeu
Or is it a recent phenomenon, though? So what would lead that to be the thing now?
- [25:44]
Stephan Speaks
I don't think it's a recent phenomenon. I think the recent phenomenon is the monetization of it. So men have always. There's always been men who felt like that, but now they figured out that you can go on YouTube and channel that energy into a show just, you know, going at women, making women look stupid, all these different things. And the men who are dwelling in their own lack of healing are drawn to that, and they love it. It feeds them at that moment. You know, and so, again, it's not to say every last guy on the Internet comes from that. You know, that's what's going on with them. But I do believe it's happening to. That's what the issue is with a lot of them is. And they're speaking to the deeper hurts within those other men. And that's why. So them being adversarial is due to them still holding on to the hurt they've experienced from broken hearts, from childhood, from all types of things that have now just detached them from being willing to embrace love in a way that's healthy and can build something special.
- [26:48]
Tom Bilyeu
Do you use. You're single.
- [26:50]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [26:50]
Tom Bilyeu
Do you use dating apps?
- [26:52]
Stephan Speaks
I don't.
- [26:53]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah, see, that's interesting. I don't know that I would either. For many, many years when people ask, like, tom, I know you're married, but if you weren't, like, what would you do? What's the most efficient way to find a girlfriend? And the more I started researching what's going on in modern dating and all that, the more I'm like, actually, I'm not sure that I would use dating apps because I think there is. I think there is something unique happening right now that is at least in part driven by dating apps, social media technology in general, which is you now have a global market. You now have basically the Pareto principle playing out because the stat goes something like the bottom 80% of men are competing for the top 20% of women. So the idea being that you have a whole lot of women that are only interested in a very narrow band of men, and you have a whole lot of men that are very interested in a very small number of women. And so when you have the hyper, successful guys. So the current era is very beneficial for a minority of guys who are loving this moment. They're like, what do you mean? What's the problem? I don't understand. Because they're getting laid left, right and center.
- [28:06]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [28:06]
Tom Bilyeu
The problem is I actually think it becomes problematic for them in a way that they're not going to realize until they get older, which is that certainly in my experience, and I've had some amazing sex, but nothing beats being with somebody who just knows you inside and out. And when the world rocks you and you're doubting yourself and you don't know what the hell you're going to do, they pick you back up to your feet, they brush you off, and they give you the Jerry Maguire speech like, you've got this. You're going to pull it off, I know it, and I'm here with you. And even if you fail, I'm ride or die to the end. And that their every behavior tells you that really is true. That just outshines, especially if it's coupled with great sex, that outshines the variety and all that stuff. But anyway, for them, it's going to seem like this is a winning strategy. But you get these guys that haven't healed to use your language that are. They're devastated, they feel overlooked. And the advice they would have gotten if they grew up when I grew up was they're just not that into you. Get better, go to the gym, push yourself. If women are into looks, money, status, I think that's the trifecta for the black pill community. If that's what they're into, then max those stats out. Yeah, but there's something now that's happening where it's become reinforced within these groups. And again, I'm going to go to technology where now people that are bitter and angry about it, they can find the other people that are bitter and angry. They can create a supportive community. Supportive in quotes. They create their own supportive community. They create norms within their community where it's like, no, no, no, you shouldn't be striving to get better. Like, basically you should just sit and be angry about this. And so that's what they reinforce in each other. And much like when a heavyset woman loses weight, women will often turn on her. If those guys try to start getting better, then they get turned on by their own group. And so it's one of the things that I love about social media is you can find your people no matter what. No matter what your thing is, you can find your people, but you can also find people that are going to hold you back while supporting you. It's really interesting.
- [30:24]
Stephan Speaks
And I think that so they do strive to get better, so to speak. I think the problem is the mentality is get better simply for self. It's more of a selfish thing rather than what I can then bring to a partner, what I can then give to my community, what I can serve on a higher level than just me.
- [30:45]
Tom Bilyeu
You think that's important?
- [30:46]
Stephan Speaks
I do think that's important. Because again, if it's done in this very selfish me, me, me way, how are you going to be able to come together with someone and have this healthy relationship? I think there is a balance that we have to strike, that we have to understand that a healthy, happy, successful relationship is two people pouring into each other. All right? You have to have your own foundation. You, you do have to ask me
- [31:10]
Tom Bilyeu
about that more because that would be my one pushback.
- [31:12]
Stephan Speaks
Which part, the pouring into each other or the foundation that.
- [31:15]
Tom Bilyeu
You have to have your own foundation. Because I don't think people can pour into somebody else if they're still a mess.
- [31:23]
Stephan Speaks
Yes, so that's my point. So I, so I view having your own foundation as. So let's, let's focus on men. One, I think it's healing yourself. I don't think enough men are getting the help they need to heal from past issues.
- [31:37]
Tom Bilyeu
What does that look like?
- [31:39]
Stephan Speaks
That looks like a facing the hurts that you've been holding on to.
- [31:42]
Tom Bilyeu
Okay, so I know your drill about who hurt me. For people that don't know, Quick primer. Write down the people that hurt you.
- [31:49]
Stephan Speaks
So, exactly. You make a. Get a piece of paper, write down the words, who hurt me? Ask yourself that question. Everyone who comes to mind, put them on the paper.
- [31:56]
Tom Bilyeu
Are you trying to get them to take responsibility, to let it go? Like.
- [31:59]
Stephan Speaks
No, I'm trying to get them to release it. So essentially, look at it like this. Emotions are trapped energy within us when we don't let it out. All right? Whether that be hurt, anger, anxiety, whatever the case, it is. And even speaking our truth, when we suppress anything, we're going to cause problems. So a lot of men have not learned how to handle and process their emotions. They suppress. And now that suppression is causing all kinds of other problems. You know, recently I'm a firm believer that I stand on the idea that women are more emotionally driven than men. And I'll get pushback sometimes and women will say, oh, no, men are just as emotional. And it's like, no, men have maybe greater emotional outbursts, all right, greater bouts of being angry or very passionate, because they suppress so much that when it finally comes out, it comes out very strong. However, they're not as emotionally driven in their decision making. It's very different. And so as men, we have to learn to release these things and also understand how to process the things that have happened to us. Because we internalize certain rejections, we internalize certain hurts, and now that's what's affecting that man's self esteem.
- [33:16]
Tom Bilyeu
Are you trying to clear the pipes so that the emotions don't get bottled up?
- [33:21]
Stephan Speaks
Yes, it's all about release. So look at it like an emotional detox. We're trying to flush out all of that negative energy that you've been holding on to, because again, what skill is
- [33:32]
Tom Bilyeu
that going to give them that they'll bring to a relationship.
- [33:35]
Stephan Speaks
Okay. 1. It will give them more clarity and ability to be in tune with their partner. Because the reality is that we struggle to sometimes embrace how our partner is feeling because we're caught up in our own feelings about things. Things. All right. And because we're holding on to that fear of maybe. Well, last time I was vulnerable with a woman. Look how it backfired on me. So that's a perfect example. There's a lot of men on the Internet now who will say men should not be vulnerable with a woman. I dispute that. I think you need to be vulnerable because you will expose what kind of woman she is. Can she handle you in your vulnerable moments or not? But also, as men, we have to understand there's a difference between being vulnerable and being emotionally unstable. All right, so I was going to
- [34:18]
Tom Bilyeu
ask you if there's vulnerability done well and vulnerability done poorly.
- [34:22]
Stephan Speaks
Exactly. So it's almost like looking at a child. There's one child who comes to you, they're having a hurtful moment. They're sad, and they tell you how they feel. There's the other child who's being frantic, all emotional, whining, and they're not even receiving what you have to say. That's what some men are doing, and they don't realize it. But then it goes further because they'll say, well, this woman is judging me because I had this moment. No, she's judging you because you keep dwelling in this moment. So, for example, I have a trainer, and he told me how a friend of female friend of his told him that she left her man after he lost his job. And I said, wait a minute. That doesn't sound right. She really left after he got fired. Like, immediately he gets fired, she drops him. I said, I think this is missing some details. Tell me what's going on. So she said, well, no. What she told him was he lost the job. And then for the next month or so, all he did was whine and mope, and he did not look for another job. I said, that's why he remained in this weak mindset, this weak state of mind that does not. Is not attractive to a woman. And he was not receiving any of her encouragement. He was not doing anything to better himself. That was the problem. Not the moment of vulnerability, not the moment of losing his job, the dwelling in it. And so when we learn how to heal, we learn how to not dwell in these things any longer. All right? We learn how to take the hit and get right back up. Because now Once we've processed things and understand that life is so much bigger than this was just all about us. When people hurt us, it's that whole hurt people, hurt people thing. And they're taking their hurt out on us. But it's a reflection of the deeper issues within them. And whether you realize it or not, as a man or a woman, if you don't resolve your hurt, you're going to hurt people. People, whether it's yourself, people who are trying to love you, whoever, you're going to pass it on. So which goes back to what the benefit is in a relationship, when you have not healed, you are more than likely going to either hurt this woman in some ways that maybe not blatantly intentional, but in your trying to protect yourself and your emotions, you will shut her out, you will make her feel more detached, or you will make her feel devalued in the relationship. You have to be able to be vulnerable and open if you truly want to come together with a woman and have something successful. Because remember, women need security. And that's not just. We always think about financial, but it's emotional too. And how can she feel emotionally secure with a man who seems so closed off, who won't let her in? You see? So that's where healing is going to help. Not to mention healing helps because a lot of men are choosing women based out of their hurt. Meaning I've had men where they were with a beautiful woman and things went wrong. And again, there's this natural inclination when we get hurt to just think it was all about them, they were the bad guy, they did it, and not consider what we could have done better in this situation. Well, these guys get hurt and you know what happens? They say, I'm never dating a beautiful woman again. All right? So now they will intentionally choose a less attractive woman, not because he's truly in love with her, truly into her, but because it feels safer here and he feels like, okay, well, she'll worship the ground I walk on, so I don't have to worry about being as vulnerable as I was last time, where I was devastated because she didn't reciprocate it eventually. So it creates a dynamic where people start to choose individuals who feel safe but aren't really best for them.
- [38:02]
Tom Bilyeu
It's interesting. That's complicated because I think sexual market value matters.
- [38:06]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [38:06]
Tom Bilyeu
And I think if you're way outside of your sexual market value or if your sexual market value is for something else. So being old and rich, it's now, and you're with A young, beautiful woman that. That is predicated on your money, man. And on her side, it's predicated on her youth.
- [38:19]
Stephan Speaks
Granted.
- [38:19]
Tom Bilyeu
It's, like, terrible. I don't want to stray too far from foundations.
- [38:23]
Stephan Speaks
Okay.
- [38:24]
Tom Bilyeu
So I'll just. Let me write that down, make sure we don't lose that. Sorry, go ahead. You're about to.
- [38:28]
Stephan Speaks
I was going to say, but there's a difference between you operating in the sexual marketplace where you can find your happiness, and you choosing what's safe because you fear being vulnerable.
- [38:38]
Tom Bilyeu
Yes.
- [38:39]
Stephan Speaks
That's the difference. You see, I'm saying so.
- [38:41]
Tom Bilyeu
But there is a point where, like, you could have. You could get yourself into a position where now it's like, I really do feel insecure with the beautiful woman.
- [38:49]
Stephan Speaks
You mean.
- [38:50]
Tom Bilyeu
Just that your sexual market value has gotten out of kilter because it can happen to the woman, it can happen to the man. And so it's interesting. Like, when I even think about this with my wife, I've really run the thought experiment of there are things that I do that are part of the value I bring to my marriage and what would happen if I either couldn't do them anymore or I start making mistakes over and over and I don't know how to fix it. I thought, wow, like, my wife would give me a lot of leeway. We have a lot of years. But, like, at some point there would be like, hey, things have really gotten out of balance here. It's interesting. I don't think my wife and I would break up or anything, but when I think about, hey, I have to be thoughtful about that. Like, I need to continue. You can't stop performing. Like, there is a point at which life is a combination of intention and results.
- [39:48]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [39:49]
Tom Bilyeu
And good intentions get you a long way. They really do, but they don't get you all the way there. Like, at some point. Anyway, I want to get back to foundation. So we've got healing. Got to do it. Clear the pipes out. Emotional stability, one of the most amazing things you've said, the difference between vulnerability and being emotionally unstable. That right there, people need to write that down and remember that that's huge. Okay, so. But we've got a guy now that he's going to go on the healing journey so that he can be emotionally available. What else is part of that foundation?
- [40:20]
Stephan Speaks
Okay, to me, the next part is financial stability. Now, I've heard you say that people
- [40:27]
Tom Bilyeu
shouldn't date unless they're finding a guy shouldn't date unless he's financially stable.
- [40:31]
Stephan Speaks
Exactly, Exactly.
- [40:32]
Tom Bilyeu
The comment section Just lit on fire.
- [40:36]
Stephan Speaks
And I want people tell me more. Stephan, I define financial stability as you can take care of yourself. Okay, here's the reason why I think a lot of people don't understand the long term ramifications of missing some of these steps. So if you're a guy and you're not financially stable, is it possible to get a woman who loves you? Yes. The problem is a lot of men are wired to where they do what they have to do to get what they want to get. If they're already getting it, they will no longer do it. So.
- [41:10]
Tom Bilyeu
So interesting you mentioned that earlier. I really think this is worth hammering home.
- [41:14]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [41:15]
Tom Bilyeu
Guys have. People are going to hate this, but it's true. Guys have conquered worlds to impress women. Everything I've ever done since I met Lisa has been to impress her as hard as I work. The great irony is that. So I think you. You were on Red Table Talk. So this is public. So something you and I have not discussed. But interesting thing about Will and Jada, Will Smith was talking about, he built this huge mansion and he did it for Jada. And Jada looked at him, was like, no, you did that for you. And my wife was like, oh, you need to hear this. Like, how important. She doesn't need that from him. She loves him anyway. And I was like, you need to slow the fuck down. I was like, let me tell you right now, I'm doing this all for you. And if you throw that back in my face and are like, I don't need this. I don't care. You're not giving me an outlet. I am hardwired to. It's part of the disposable male hypothesis. I am here to protect, to defend the group, to defend you, to defend my children. It is in me. There's nothing you're going to be able to do to strip that other than lower people's testosterone microplastics, but in a good state, that makes it all matter to me. So did you ask me to do it? No. Did you want a guy that was ambitious? Yes. So you have intentionally gotten with a guy. And in her case, I told her, you can ask me to give anything up and I'll do it, but not my ambition. I don't know who I am without it, and I don't want to know. And so now it's like, hey, I'm going to go to war. I want to go to war for you. And the second that she snubs that and is like, oh, don't think that you're working this hard for me. Yes. Now, you may be saying, I need more in the relationship. And so you can't lose yourself to the ambition. You can't only pursue the ambition because then you are doing it for me and you're doing it in my name, but you're not actually giving me a gift that I can receive.
- [43:17]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah.
- [43:18]
Tom Bilyeu
So it's like, okay. Complex, but very important. Okay. So now going back to. You can't skip this step. You need to get financially stable. 1. I don't think you said it out loud, but I've heard you say it before. I think it's important for you to say. You're not saying rich.
- [43:33]
Stephan Speaks
Exactly. I'm not saying rich. Just being able to take care of yourself. You can take care of your own bills. If you didn't have anyone else, you'd be able to live your life and be okay. That way you're not walking into a relationship as any kind of burden to that woman. But also, again, as I mentioned, because a lot of men are wired to where they will not do it unless they have to. And this woman takes them at a time where they have not achieved that stability. A lot of men then fall off at that point and they get comfortable with the fact that she's holding them up. Now she's only holding you up with the hopes that you will finally get yourself together and even surpass maybe even what you were thinking. But if you guys are in alignment with that understanding, it can create a huge problem. The other aspect to consider is that, and here's the other reason why, it's the still dangerous. Even when she genuinely loves you and wants to work with you, you run the risk of her struggling to ever fully respect you. Because in her mind, I made you. I built you. You are nothing without me. All right? A woman needs to revere the man she's with. She needs to have a level of respect for him. And if she feels like you could not do this without her, it's going to be a struggle. So this is where.
- [44:49]
Tom Bilyeu
Linger on that point for a second.
- [44:50]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah, no problem.
- [44:51]
Tom Bilyeu
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Stephan Speaks
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Tom Bilyeu
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- [45:37]
Tom Bilyeu
Okay, I agree with you that a man should become a certain level of capable.
- [45:43]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [45:44]
Tom Bilyeu
Before he gets in a relationship. Now, when I met Lisa, she didn't have a job so fair. She was being taken care of by her father. I didn't exactly have a good job, but I had a job. But then while we were engaged, I didn't have a job and she did. And she was the only one making money. And I slid into a really dark place. And so I wasn't doing much of anything. And it really became a friction point. Cutting a very long story short, I get my act together, I become the person that people know today. I become hyper successful. There was a moment in there, though, where I realized I wouldn't have become who I became if it wasn't for her. And there is a phrase that I am going to guess is very out of vogue now, but when she said it, I was like, oh, my God, that's brilliant. It's from the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding, which was the man is the head and the woman is the neck. And I was like, oh, my God, that's my marriage. And I'm the one that's ambitious. I'm going after this, that or the other. But my wife, through wifely means, can incentivize pursuing certain things and not others. And so she has been very good at harnessing my drive, intelligence, desire, all of that to hey, have you thought about going in and pushing for this? Or hey, you should really ask for that or make this demand or whatever. And so really pushed me to be a tougher, more aggressive, better version of myself. And when it was all said and done and we were adorned in worldly success, I broke down in tears and was like, this is before she really stepped into her own. Was like, the world's never going to understand that I wouldn't be who I am without you. And that was useful for me and for her. It was useful for me to realize I'm not an island. I didn't do this by myself, that I had help. But I felt comfortable saying that because I'm a warrior and I don't need her to, you know, tell me, do this out of the other. But she made me better.
- [48:12]
Stephan Speaks
So here's the difference. She inspires you. She activated things within you that you already possessed. She may have helped add a level of perspective. All right? And again, got your fire going that's very different from the woman. And let's use a very simple example. She gets with this man. He doesn't have a job right now. She's the one going online, putting in his resumes. She's the one making the phone calls. She's doing everything. So she literally is making him.
- [48:47]
Tom Bilyeu
Lisa wasn't my mother. She was my wife.
- [48:49]
Stephan Speaks
There you go. And that's the huge difference. And that's why I say, you know, it is. There's exceptions to every rule. And that's why a man has to just understand. Okay, and I'll flip it for a second. I tell women, if you're going to get with a man when he's not financially stable, the question is, what is his character? If his character is in place and he's a man that, you know is willing to put in the work and do what he needs to do. But, yes, it might be that you help with some things here and there, but he will actually make the effort.
- [49:22]
Tom Bilyeu
Cool.
- [49:22]
Stephan Speaks
But if you are dragging this man to the finish line, that's a problem. All right, but then here's another risk that people don't consider. Some women only get with the guy who's not stable yet, not out of some genuine love, but out of power and control. Because now she feels here I have an upper hand, and it's safer here. So to give you an example, I met this one guy, I spoke on this panel many years ago, and he said when he got with his wife, or now ex wife, he was broke. You know, she was willing to work with him. So for the first few years, she was paying for everything. But he got himself together and became very successful. And in his mind, it was like, you know, you held me down all these years. I want to take care of you. He said when he started paying the bills and doing things for her, she was like, what are you doing? She became very uncomfortable. It actually started to cause conflict in the relationship because her intention was to hang on to that power. And now she felt like she doesn't have that upper hand anymore. And now she starts to feel insecure, like, well, now he can get a better woman. Why does he want me? And now that starts to play a negative role in the relationship. So the problem is, again, it Isn't to say there aren't genuine situations.
- [50:40]
Tom Bilyeu
How would you help that woman? Woman?
- [50:41]
Stephan Speaks
How would I help that woman?
- [50:42]
Tom Bilyeu
If she comes to you, you know the whole story. He rises up. It's amazing. She's now getting insecure. Let's say they came to you for, effectively, therapy. I know you're a therapist, but you get the idea. What would you tell her?
- [50:55]
Stephan Speaks
So the first thing we would do is focus on what? What hurt is she holding on to? Because no one behaves like that if they're healed. That's plain and simple. And this is, again, why healing is so important. Because it will rear its ugly head in relationships at some point, one or another. And some people can survive it. Most people do not. And so it would be a focus on. All right, let's get to the root of why did you even feel the need to have this control? Why are you so scared? What were you hurt from that you have not released and addressed? But here's the unfortunate truth that would also come out. Because a lot of people choose the wrong person to be with because they have been healed. And that's why, when some people do get healed while they're in a relationship, they start to realize, oh, snap, this person isn't for me. I don't want this anymore. You know, now that I'm finally tapping into my true self, I now realize we're not in alignment with each other. We never were. But I was able to hide behind all these other things and distractions and rationalize why I should be here. Because, again, it felt safer. Because remember, when I use the word safer, what I'm saying is this relationship does not require my full vulnerability because I'm not into them like that. They don't do it for me like that. When we're with someone that we're really into, that pulls everything out, all right? And the couples who learn how to handle and embrace that can go on to have an amazing relationship. But many, because they have not healed, will run from that. So there's tons of people who meet the right person, but because they haven't healed, they can't handle the relationship. And they sabotage it. They find something wrong with it. I just talked to another guy the other day. He was on the verge of getting engaged. And the woman said, I can't do this. I've never been treated like this before. I don't know how. I can't handle it. I don't. This makes no sense. Yeah, he treated her amazing.
- [52:51]
Tom Bilyeu
She's just waiting for the other shoe to Fall.
- [52:53]
Stephan Speaks
Yes, exactly. Because when you have already been through all kinds of disappointments and hurts, you just are used to negative. You're like, no, this guy must be setting me up for something wrong. Something's going to happen. He's treating me nice now to be abusive later. That's literally what some will think, because they cannot process this being real and genuine because they're holding on to all that negative energy. And again, it happens to men as well. I would argue it happens to women more than it happens to men. The idea of letting that fear sabotage the relationship. But it can happen on both sides. But back to the point of being stable and the fact that some people are just getting together because it feels safe, that's the reason why I think as a man, by creating that financial stability, you at least minimize all those things, all those concerns I just mentioned. So you're coming in, having a foundation that she can respect. So now it's easier for her to view you as a man who has the character of putting in the work and can do more. So now she can be your magnifier, not the creator of your life. All right? And as you kind of mentioned, she's not your mother now. She's your partner. A lot of women are with men where they're the mother, plain and simple.
- [54:04]
Tom Bilyeu
So how do you think about partnerships between men and women? Do you think it matters who leads? Do you think it matters, like stay at home dads, like does. Do you think that there's. Are there roles in general? Obviously. Averages. Averages that will serve us?
- [54:26]
Stephan Speaks
Absolutely, 100%. And some people don't like this, but I'm be honest. I believe one, the man should be the leader of the house. And I believe that.
- [54:34]
Tom Bilyeu
And what does that mean? Because I doubt you mean he tells you what to do.
- [54:37]
Stephan Speaks
Exactly. That simply means it's almost like being the team captain of a basketball team. All right? He may be making the final decisions. We're going to go with his vision and his plan. But a smart leader considers what his team has to say. So a man, a smart man, a smart husband is going to consider the perspective of his wife. You cannot not include her in the process. That's going to cause a lot of problems. I also think that when we understand the strengths of men and women. Here's how I look at it. I view women as smarter than men, all right? Because women are more thorough thinkers than men are. Meaning women consider every last detail, all right? And they pick up on every little thing, which is why women tend to be Better liars than men. Because when a woman lies, she's already running the play on every angle that can come out of this that she has to cover her bases on. When a man lies, he's lying for that moment. One angle, that's it. Okay? So if she asks enough questions, she can catch them in the lie. The problem is, unfortunately, and people take this as an offensive thing, but it shouldn't be offensive. It's just the reality of how we're biologically wired. Women are more emotionally driven, which is why, so I've heard somebody on a podcast say, well, if women are so smart, then why are they making all these bad choices of men? Because what happens is a woman's intuition could tell her the man's not the one for her. Her mind and all the details she's gathered can tell her this is not it. But her emotion of maybe she's afraid to be alone. Maybe she just is hanging on to something that he provides. Maybe she just likes the fantasy of what this can become. Those emotions push her to rationalize past her knowledge and make a decision that isn't always wise for her. So now, when you bring a man and a woman together in a relationship, I view it as the man has a strength of being able to separate emotion from his decision making. All right? It's easier for us. And again, when we understand that testosterone and estrogen drive certain things in us, we see why this is a fact for most people. And so as a man, you gain the perspective of the woman who's giving you all the angles that you may not be thinking about, giving you the more thorough thought process that maybe you haven't considered a few things, but then being able to take her information as the leader and say, okay, here it is. Here's what I know. Here's what she gave me. What's the best decision here, in the interest of both of us, of our family, that she understands I'm leading with love. Not to be her dictator, not to just run her and tell her, do as I say, but to make sure we're moving in the best possible direction. And so that might mean that something that she suggested is the way we do it, right? So it doesn't mean she has no influence. It just means that he will make the final decision. And the reason why I believe he has to make the final decision, and that's going to be most beneficial for the average couple, is because here's what happens on the flip side, where people try to do the egalitarian relationship or the woman Making the decisions in most cases, the vast majority over time, as I said, men don't do what they don't have to do any longer. If he's been taken out of the mix from making decisions because she's either making them or when we're doing the whole equal thing, what happens is everything's great if we're in agreeance. The minute that there's a disagreement. Now he has a choice as a man. Do I go with what my wife says to make her happy, or do I do what I think is best? But now I'm going to piss her off and pay a price, okay? And what most men tend to do is they might try once to go their way. And once they pay that price, once they're like, you know what? I don't want that trouble. I'm going to default to her. So now he gets in the habit of defaulting, defaulting, defaulting.
- [58:27]
Tom Bilyeu
Happy, happy life.
- [58:27]
Stephan Speaks
Exactly. And so she may be okay with that in the moment, but over time, there's going to be situations where she's bombarded by life. She's overwhelmed. She doesn't have the mental capacity right now to handle dealing with this decision. She needs you to make it. But this man has been disarmed from his ability to learn how to make decisions. Because ask any. I mean, you know better than anybody as an entrepreneur, as a businessman making decisions, it requires energy. That's why, like, I've heard of Bezos, you know how he says he pays a bunch of people to make all the small decisions so that he can handle the big ones? All right? Because you don't want to be overwhelmed dealing with so many things to where it takes away from your focus and the ability to be sharp with that bigger decision. So for a woman, when we understand, remember I said they're thorough thinkers because they're thorough thinkers, women tend to be in their head a lot, okay? But that causes a lot of mental exhaustion. So if she's handling stuff with the kids, if she's also working, if she's dealing with stuff around the house, and now she has to constantly deal with the one being the one that makes the final decision, that's going to wear her out. And so now because he is incapable, she starts to resent that. She starts to lose respect for him. You see what I'm saying? He now feels like more of a liability than anything else, and everything goes downhill. So that's why when I tell people, let that man lead, it's because even the process of making decisions, you have to practice, you're not going to just jump in the fire and be a great decision maker. It doesn't work that way. You got to go through the bumps and the bruises of handling this, learning how to process, how to take her information, how to consider all angles. So if you don't let that man grow in that role, he's not going to become great at it. And it will be more beneficial for the whole household for him to learn how to do that than to him to lose that skill.
- [60:25]
Tom Bilyeu
You are on something that I think is really important. I'm going to fumble my way through because I've actually never thought about this in a way that I had to say out loud, but thinking about my own marriage, so. So I've taken a slightly different approach to that. So in the broad strokes, I agree with you. But there might be a nuance where we see things a little bit differently. So I think that people have to put this into evolutionary perspective. So we have to think about. We have to abstract it from today and think about why we are biologically the way that we are. So we are a mammal. And I think that in a modern context, it's very easy to forget that because we have birth control, we have baby formula, but for hundreds of thousands of years, the woman one couldn't stop her period. It was going to come when it was going to come, and so that already is going to create problems. So there's going to be times in the month where you're not able to just wander around and go do the hunting and things like that. So you're already going to be relegated a little bit because of a cycle. On top of that, men are the. They are the answer to the question of what would women create as one half of the species over a very long period of time? Because women are the sexual gatekeepers. And so men being stronger, men being hyper ambitious, all of that, that is effectively what they have bred us to be, if you will. And so there's a reason for that. So if they realize, okay, wait a second, I need to be optimized. This gets so interesting. So the strategy that the human animal took as a species is that we decided to build a big brain with a lot of folds in it and to use culture as our weapon. So we don't have stronger muscles, sharper claws, bigger teeth. What we have is a more effective brain at problem solving, really at being able to predict the outcome of our behaviors. So it's a prediction engine and it's a trade off, though. So women, the Size of the head dictates the width of the pelvis of a woman and the angle of the pelvis. And we have taken it about as far as you can take it. And a woman still be able to stand upright and run. And so if the head got bigger and the pelvis had to widen and tilt more, then she just wouldn't be able to stand upright. So we go that far and then we stop. But we want to make the baby even smarter. So what do we do? We make their head soft. And we have this extended period of infancy where they have to be cared for 20 minutes after birth. A horse is doing all the things a horse is going to do. A human is not. Two years after it, they're still not. And so we have this prolonged period where the woman is going to have to take care of the child. One of the most fascinating things to me is that women, 15% of women, have a fourth photoreceptor. So guys have RGB3. That's it. Red, blue, green, period, end of story. Some women, because they have that fourth photoreceptor, can actually see more colors than men. The question becomes, why would women have that and no, men have it. One hypothesized answer, which makes a lot of sense to me, is that given that a woman is going to have to take care of the infant and is going to be optimized for that, and instead of strength, so they've outsourced their strength. They bred that into men. They said, I need you to protect me. I'm going to be here with the infant. I'm going to be incapacitated. I'm going to have the period. I'm going to do all these things. I'm going to breastfeed. I'm literally going to make food in my body and then have to hold the infant to deal with it, right? In an uncontrollable manner. It's not like it is today, where you can be on the period and then stop and then have kids, fertility treatments, none of that for hundreds of thousands of years. So it's like, hey, I need to get really good at being able to see the change and the color of the baby's cheeks to know how are they doing, Are they frustrated, hurt, sick, all of it. And so that's one potential reason why they might have more photoreceptors. But it shows. Women are optimized for something different. They're not optimized for strength. They're optimized for birthing a big head for breastfeeding you would imagine that they would be far more emotionally connective, right? Which you've talked about that. And then also you get into. They're going to need to be less volatile. They're going to need, meaning physically aggressive. They're going to need to be more averse to physical aggression, that they, they wouldn't want that to be the solution again, which is why they did not optimize for strength, fighting ability, all that stuff. So anyway, you take that as the context because I'm going to talk about the slightly different strategy that my wife and I run. So that's the setup, right? My wife is optimized for one thing, I'm optimized for another. I'm optimized for ambition, aggression systems, the traditional male genes. And we're all on a spectrum. And I actually lean more feminine. My wife tends to lean more masculine. I think it's one of the secrets of our marriage. But anyway, I'm still on average, far more masculine than my wife. So you put that together. Okay. So I feel, given our biological optimizations, I don't think that I'm smarter than my wife, but I do think that there are things that I'm better optimized for. And one of them is if I'm going to have to sacrifice if I'm the disposable man. So if an intruder were to break into the house, she doesn't even think about it. She actually fell asleep one time when our alarm went off. She just went back to sleep. I'm fucking walking around the house like I'm about to get in a fight. And as it should be in my opinion, Right? So. So that if I'm the one that's going to go off to die, I need to be able to make my own decisions. I can't be in a, hey, what should I do? So I'm already optimized for you. Stay there, be safe. Shut the door. I'm going to go take action. You don't want to worker be doing that. You want someone that can think for themselves. So anyway, one of many reasons why I think that from a biological standpoint, I'm probably slightly more optimized for a certain kind of decision making. But what Lisa and I have done is gone. You know what we need to understand. You're better at some things than I am, and I'm better at some things than you are. So we're going to acknowledge those areas of proficiency and deficiency. And when it's your area of expertise, we're going to go with Your answer. When it's my area of expertise, we're going to go with mine. When it's unknown or we collide and we can't agree, then we're going to do everything in our power possible to convince each other. But if we can't, then that's when I'm going to lead.
- [67:06]
Stephan Speaks
And that is 100% the formula that I agree with, would subscribe to. Because I think any wise person understands your partner may have strengths that you do not have, and it would only be smart to let them handle that
- [67:20]
Tom Bilyeu
and to help them shine.
- [67:22]
Stephan Speaks
Exactly.
- [67:22]
Tom Bilyeu
That was something I learned early on, the hard way. I thought my wife would only be sexually attracted to me if I was better than her at everything. Recipe for disaster. Yeah.
- [67:32]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah. Because people want to feel valued. They want to feel like they're bringing something, something to the dynamic and to the relationship. So I think that is the way to do it. So my argument has only ever been once. There is that stalemate. We have to have an understanding of who will then break it, because if there isn't the understanding that you will take the lead in those moments, you will have a forever clash. And now we're back to that example where I said the woman will either make him feel like he has to give in to her because he's going to pay a price if he doesn't. But if she already understands and respects that. Listen, in these moments, we know you will take the lead. She's not going to fight you. She's not going to make your life harder because we're doing the way that we said we would do it. So I think that's why it's important to have.
- [68:16]
Tom Bilyeu
Here's an important thing. Because it's funny, there is one thing in our lives I just can't get her to do my way. And so it's interesting as I think through this one, I'm very good at what, waiting when to push and say, no, no, no, we need to do it this way. And when I actually do give in, because I think it's very important for both of you to give in when the other person. It really matters to them and it doesn't matter quite as much to you. And there's one thing that my wife and I are sort of of equal, it really matters to me in the opposite direction that it really matters to her, and that's tidiness. So I find tidiness to be deeply inefficient. So I am. I'm. I have optimized and reinforcing Myself for efficiency. Efficiency, to me is everything. All, every. The house, the. Everything I've achieved. It's. It's because I'm obsessed with efficiency. My wife wants everything to be tidy, otherwise it gives her a deep sense of anxiety. And my thing is, I need to know where everything is because I cannot waste a second searching for something. So, anyway, we've collided on this so many times, and. And it sounds funny when we say it, but it really bothers me and it really bothers her. And it's like this ongoing bone of contention. And so with everything else in our lives, though, we've been able to find that thing. Like, okay, I don't care as much about this as you do. So even though I disagree, let's go. Even though I disagree and you have not convinced me, I'm still going to acquiesce and say, cool, if that really matters to you. And that give and take, I think is critically important. Being very thoughtful about when you draw a hard line in the sand, I think is very important. So many people draw a line in the sand because they're insecure about their leadership. Which in fact brings me to my most inflammatory statement. Okay, this is the part that I'm fumbling through. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I think I'm. I'm pretty sure about this.
- [70:01]
Stephan Speaks
Okay,
- [70:04]
Tom Bilyeu
I'm into short women. Okay, I. When asked at the age of 19 to describe my future wife, I said many things, all of which ended up being true to almost freakish degree. But one of them was, she'll be short. Okay, I'm just into it. And it makes me feel powerful. That's the honest answer. And I like to feel powerful. And I think it's universal. I think guys do. And, ladies, if I may make a suggestion, make your man feel powerful and a lot of problems will go away. So that dimorphic difference makes me feel strong and powerful. So I love it and always knew that that was going to be a thing. But another thing that. So I give that as an example of something where you just have a thing that you're looking for. Another thing that I think matters a lot to guys and they should be very thoughtful about in women want a guy, hypergamy. They date across and up when it comes to intelligence and access to resources. So with guys, I would say you want to marry someone where you're the right person to lead. So I wouldn't want. And my wife has said this to me so many times and on camera, I'm not talking out of school When I tell you that my wife has said you're the right person between the two of us, when we can't convince each other you're the right person to lead. I weep for men who are in a relationship where they're trying to lead and they're not the right person to lead, and they actually pick somebody that's just better at reading the situation than they are. And so I think that this is one of those things that's really undervalued in terms of how thoughtful you need to be about. If you're a guy that's like, no, no, no, I think it's rad. Like, I want my wife to lead. Cool, then you can. You don't. In fact, you better pick somebody that's better at that than you are. But if you want to lead, and that's like a part of how you bring value to the relationship,
- [71:59]
Stephan Speaks
you better
- [71:59]
Tom Bilyeu
be the right person to lead.
- [72:01]
Stephan Speaks
Absolutely. And that goes back to why I think the foundation has to be in place, because it can be difficult to establish yourself as a leader at times when you don't have any foundation in place for her to respect. Now, again, there's exceptions to every rule, but you make it easier for yourself when you at least get that together. And I do think that some men have to realize. Well, unfortunately, I think some men are not understanding the importance of them being able to lead. I do think that some men are confusing leadership with control and thinking that it's just about me getting my way rather than. No, it's about leading your relationship to better doing what's in the best interest of you and your partner. And that's why, again, it's so important to consider your partner's feelings. I've talked to a lot of husbands before having problems. And one of the complaints from the wife is he doesn't tell me anything. He does things without mentioning it to me. And that makes. It's not even about whether you are capable of making the right choice by excluding her. You are making her feel devalued. All right? And then it starts to pour over into other things, because another issue is. So you don't include her in decision making. The only time you want to touch her is when you want to have sex. All right? Which is another area that wives feel or partners feel very devalued, because to them, she starts to think, I am just a sexual object to you. I am nothing more than that. And so when you devalue her in all these different ways, you don't talk to her in general and just hear how she's feeling, even if it's not a decision to be made. She starts to become very detached from that relationship, and it creates a lot of problems. Not to mention, she will now become less sexually receptive to you, which then opens the door to a whole nother slew of issues. So now you're frustrated. So the reality is that we have to find ways to bring each other together in every aspect. And that's why I think, as a leader, you just. Most women just want to be heard. That's it. They just want to know you're listening and you're considering what they're saying. You don't have to do it their way. Many of them will try to get their way because they feel like they've been dismissed for so long. So now I have to flex my muscles.
- [74:18]
Tom Bilyeu
I have something I want to run by you.
- [74:19]
Stephan Speaks
Go ahead.
- [74:19]
Tom Bilyeu
I've recently, my wife and I have been running into a frustration where I go into robot mode, which we can talk about later. But first, I want to talk about where she's saying, I just want to be heard. And I finally realized the other day, I think I'm right. She doesn't just want to be heard. She wants me to sync up with her emotions. And the word she's using is heard, but she doesn't feel heard. If I'm like, oh, man, I totally hear you.
- [74:49]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [74:50]
Tom Bilyeu
So I disagree. I think you're reacting poorly, but I hear you. You've been heard. She wants me to be like, that's outrageous. I'm totally with you. I can't believe she actually wants me to match her emotion. Dude, when I do it, she feels heard. It's so interesting. And I feel like if women would start using a different language, which is, I want you to sync up with my emotion, then they would actually be asking for the thing that's going to make them feel good because they. For instance, part of what happens with my wife and I is some. She has the gear of righteous indignation. I almost don't have it. It is so hard to get me there. And when she gets into that gear and somebody has wronged her, she wants me to be like, yeah, that's ridiculous. And all I can think is, if you go react like that, you're not going to get what you actually want out of this situation. But once I realized, oh, my God, what she's actually asking for is me to sync up, does that feel right, or am I missing something?
- [75:50]
Stephan Speaks
So I think what came to Mind when you mentioned that is. Yes, I think women want you to feel them. They want you to be in tune with where they are and to acknowledge their feelings. I don't know if you have to sync up completely with their emotions, because like you said, the problem is it can become dangerous if they need that counter emotion to kind of bring forth new perspective and help them calm down from where they are.
- [76:15]
Tom Bilyeu
How do we do that? If you can teach me how to do this, Staphon, I will be in your debt forever.
- [76:20]
Stephan Speaks
So the key is. It's acknowledging how they feel. I think sometimes we think because we don't understand, we can't acknowledge.
- [76:28]
Tom Bilyeu
All right, so how do you acknowledge. How do you acknowledge in a. In an honest way where I. Because if I don't. If I think that that emotion makes no sense, what do I do? Because I don't want to patronize her and be like, oh, my God, I totally get when inside I'm like, I actually don't get this. This is a mistake.
- [76:45]
Stephan Speaks
So, okay, so look at like, this. Let's say a situation upsets her and she's angry. And to you, it's like, you don't need to be angry right now. Your first step is, I understand why this is making you mad, because you do. You understand that this is the type of woman she is, and these types of things piss her off. So that is a true statement. I understand why this is making you mad. All right? And I feel you. But I want you to, you know, look at it this way. Let's, you know, feel better and kind of be the calm to her storm in that moment. The thing is, what we tend to do as men is we dismiss how they feel. Oh, you're overreacting. Oh, that's silly. Oh, you don't need to be, you know, handling it that way. You're nowhere are you acknowledging how she feels. So it's an acknowledgment. And in that acknowledgment, your mindset has to be, how can I now make you feel better or help contribute a positive energy into you rather than back up the negative you're feeling and magnify it? No. How can I pour into that positive? So it's almost like, let's flip it. You're upset about something. Let's just say, I don't know if you're a huge sports fan, but let's say your team just lost and you are pissed off. The last thing you want your woman to come to you and say, it's just A game. What's wrong with you? Oh, blah, blah, blah, blah. You don't want to hear that right now. You're mad your team lost. If she comes to you, rubs your back, I understand. Don't worry. You know, they'll do better next time. They had a great season. Boom, boom. That would make you feel better. So again, she doesn't have to understand why you're so passionate about sports. She doesn't have to get passionate with it. Passionate about it with you. She just has to acknowledge and then soothe you. So acknowledge, then soothe. That's what I would suggest.
- [78:35]
Tom Bilyeu
I think that's very good advice. Yeah, that's really interesting. What's really interesting is it works to match, to sync up, to express the same emotion. And I heard this, it was from a guy that probably studied nlp, and he was like, if somebody comes at you really hot, even if they're angry at you, match their anger and be like, I know. I get why you must be really angry about this. And, you know, I think that we can work through and then you bring them down.
- [78:59]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah.
- [79:00]
Tom Bilyeu
And I always thought, would that work? But when I started matching my wife and being like, that's outrageous. She was like, that actually works better. But to your point, what you just described, a thousand percent would work on me. That is precisely how I would want my wife to react. It'll be very interesting. I will try that with. With real sincerity of. I know you well enough. I understand that this is really upsetting you. I'm here with you. I got you. I'm in it. I'm not the. Even though I'm not a sports fan, I so get that analogy. The thing that I do get like that on is video games. Like, if I, oh, my God, I will get so angry. And thankfully, my wife, because we play together.
- [79:45]
Stephan Speaks
Oh, good.
- [79:45]
Tom Bilyeu
She'll. She understands it and gives me space to, like, vent and be angry. But yeah, if she was like, it's just a game. Why are you acting like that? I'd get even more annoyed.
- [79:53]
Stephan Speaks
Exactly.
- [79:54]
Tom Bilyeu
That's actually really, really helpful. Okay, so relationships are hyper complex. I think we've gotten through a big chunk of it in terms of getting the emotional stability, understanding the different roles that we play, understanding leadership, understanding how to make sure that we're both bringing equal value, that everybody feels valued and understood, how we can emotionally help to regulate each other without inflaming each other. Now, if we both agree that selection is a huge part of this, we know we're looking for somebody healed. I think we Covered that well. But how do you find that person? Like, both. What do you look for? And mechanistically, like, if we're not in dating apps, where are we going? How do we. Is there like a dating protocol where it's like, first date is always on the phone or first date is always cop. Whatever. What do we look for? How do we find it?
- [80:54]
Stephan Speaks
Okay, so first thing I want to say is we don't have to look for them to already be healed. I do think that that's a tough task because the majority of people are not interesting. I think the key is because once you heal, you can see dysfunction so much easier. You can see a lack of healing so much easier. So making sure you're healed first, that you can then identify who isn't and who is. And then when you address it with them, are they willing to work on it? If they're willing to work on it, then we can work with something.
- [81:26]
Tom Bilyeu
What signs do we look for there?
- [81:28]
Stephan Speaks
It's not even a sign. It's a matter of when we discuss this issue, are they willing to acknowledge it? Are they willing to take any accountability for it? And if we suggest if you've healed, then you would have had a method of either going to a therapist or coach, or you would have read a book, you would have had some tool that you can now suggest to them, or are they receptive to that tool? Or they're just like, I don't need any help. I'm fine. That's it. That's your sign. Clearly, they don't want to face it. I had one time, went on a date many years ago with a woman. And long story short, there were several issues. But one of the things that struck me was she was going to enter to a field because it was the wish of one of her family members. Okay. But it wasn't a field she wanted to do, so I don't want to put her out there. So let's just say it was network it. Network manager, right? And so to me, I'm. My thing is I cannot be with someone who does something that they're not happy about doing because you're going to bring that negativity into the household, and it's going to affect me, it's going to affect the children. We don't need that. I'm successful enough to where I can give you the opportunity to do whatever fills your heart. If you're going to stay stuck to what someone else wants you to do. What we can't work here. And so when I brought up this issue and I brought up other issues. Her response was pretty much, oh, no, I'm fine. Oh, no. Like, there was a complete rejection of addressing these things or doing anything about it. To me, that was my sign. Okay, this isn't going to work, you know, so that's one thing is just making sure you're healed and seeing if they are willing to heal. Because just waiting for everyone that you meet to be healed is going to be a problem. Now, how we go about looking for them, even though I said I don't use dating apps, I don't use it because of the position that I'm in. All right? I do think more people should be using dating apps, not how do you use them? Well, that's the key, because when they talk about how, you know, 80% of women are chasing the 20% of men and all that kind of stuff, when you actually go on some of these dating sites, these profiles are trash. All right? What's happening is most people do not go on a dating app with real intention. They don't put real effort. You know, the problem is that's the mindset with relationships in general. We will go to school to get our career. We will study things to learn what we want to learn. But when it comes to relationships, we think it should just be, oh, we just walk into it and everything should be fine, rather than doing the work to educate ourselves, to prepare ourselves, to set ourselves up for success. So for me with the guys, I think that if I'm a man, the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to go to some other women and say, how does this profile look? How can this be more attractive? All right? Am I even putting the right pictures up on here? You put the right pictures in. That makes a huge difference. And the reality is that we have to understand that the Internet and real life are very different. The reason why, my personal belief, one of the reasons why I think the 80% of women are chasing the 20% of men online on dating apps is because we're more critical online than we are in person. When we are either on Instagram or a dating app, we're literally looking for something to knock this person off. All right? We're dissecting every picture we're looking at, if their body shape this, that all those things. Because we have the time to sit there and process. When we meet in person, our brains tend to go to what we're attracted to. We don't have time to just break down every single angle. So it's easier for people to connect in person. So I do think, though I encourage dating apps. I think men need to get out more. All right, there was one time I was on a show and they had a call in section and one of the guys called. He said, you know, I can't meet any women. I don't know what's going on. And long story short, we found out that when he would go out, he would meet women, but he was struggling on online dating. And we're like, guy, just get out more. Like you have the answer in front of you. So I think we need to get out more. But optimize your profiles with pictures. I think also one thing I encourage the women to do, and I would say this to the men as well, people go on a dating app and they focus on what they want to get rather than presenting their value. And I look at it from, like, the perspective of if you are marketing a product, you don't go into Walmart and the product, product says, you know what, what kind of customer I want? No, they tell you why you should buy me, why I should pick your product. Same thing on our dating app, present why a woman should be interested in you. What makes you the better choice than these other guys that she's going to see?
- [86:09]
Tom Bilyeu
Now, what should guys lead with? Basically, I'm asking, what are women looking for on average? Obviously, this won't be every woman, but is there, like, best practices?
- [86:17]
Stephan Speaks
If there's best practices, as far as how we present our value or the overall dating app profile?
- [86:23]
Tom Bilyeu
Our value. Like, I'm thinking, okay, God forbid my wife is hit by a meteorite or something. And now I'm dating again and I decide that I'm going to do a dating app. What do I do? I could just put, I'm rich, bitch. Like, but for real.
- [86:37]
Stephan Speaks
Like, that might work a little bit,
- [86:39]
Tom Bilyeu
though, but it would attract the wrong person, right? So now I'm like, okay, what do I actually. Like, I've not thought through this. So what would a guy put if he is, let's say he's got his shit together, he's financially stable. Not rich, but he's financially stable, he's doing his thing, he's ambitious, he's in shape. Like, he's doing the things. But, like, how do you present it?
- [87:05]
Stephan Speaks
So outside of making sure your pictures
- [87:07]
Tom Bilyeu
are on point and what's on point? Shirtless. Do we do shirtless?
- [87:10]
Stephan Speaks
I don't think you need to do shirtless because that can look like you're trying too hard.
- [87:13]
Tom Bilyeu
Yep.
- [87:13]
Stephan Speaks
It's just favorable pictures. And that's why I think it's important to get the opinion of a woman who can tell you, this looks good, like this looks good on you. You know, a lot of men don't realize that because you know how nowadays you hear about on the Internet that all these women want a six figure man. And I always say, listen, the majority of relationships consist of women who are with men who don't make six figures.
- [87:35]
Tom Bilyeu
Can I, can I just say something?
- [87:36]
Stephan Speaks
Go ahead.
- [87:37]
Tom Bilyeu
I'm so curious to see if you agree with this. What women really want. They don't want you to be broke for sure. They don't give a shit. They don't care about money. I'll just tell you that right now. What they care about, how do you make them feel? Yes, Stephan, I'm arrogant. Can I be arrogant for a minute?
- [87:53]
Stephan Speaks
Yes, you can be arrogant.
- [87:54]
Tom Bilyeu
So I can say this in the safety of a marriage, but let's remember I landed my amazing wife when I was broke. So I think that I figured out game. I realized, oh, it's about how I make her feel about herself. And if I make her feel better about herself when she's around me, sincerely, by the way, it has to come from a real place. I'm not blowing smoke. I am like legitimately impressed with this woman. But I know how to tell her in a way that doesn't make me look weak or thirsty. But if you can make that woman feel about herself the way she has always wanted to feel, then you will do just fine. I, I secretly want to go on a game show where I have to go get a woman and they don't know who I am and they don't know how much money I have and I just have to spit game. And because I know, keep in mind, the thing I know about game is authenticity. Only say what's real. And even if you told me that I have to hide certain parts of my personality, the other parts I would make them so fucking real. And the things that, like when Lisa tells a story about how we met and why she thought I was interesting one, I thought she was legally obligated to leave the country. So I didn't think there was this was going to be a long term thing. I had recently realized that it's all about the willingness to walk away, to be yourself in a fun, playful manner, package yourself up well. But like you can't, you can't act like, I hope you pick me. Yeah, it's the same thing in a job interview. I Always tell people, don't try to win the job. Try to assess the opportunity. So if I'm like asking her questions, I'm learning about her, I'm finding the things that I'm legitimately interested in. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Tell me more about that. Oh my God. That's actually really interesting. I am convinced. I'm going to tell you another story. God, I'm really derailing us. I had a really interesting experience with a woman one time. We were dating. Could not make her orgasm. Try, try, try, try, try. Can't do it. A night happens and I go into a mode that people that have seen me only on camera would be very familiar with. I got really passionate about a topic and I was really going in and I was explaining why I love this thing so much and how much it mattered to me and what I'm willing to do and how hard I'm willing to go. And I could see the way she was looking at me changed. She had an orgasm the next day and I was like, holy. So my mom gave me the best piece of advice I ever got about women. For a woman to have an orgasm, she has to trust you.
- [90:21]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [90:22]
Tom Bilyeu
I'm going to add another thing. She has to be. I think you used enamored or something.
- [90:27]
Stephan Speaks
Like you have to just revere you.
- [90:29]
Tom Bilyeu
Perfect. You have to do something that that woman would actually revere.
- [90:34]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [90:36]
Tom Bilyeu
The things that made me capable of getting wealthy, I'll have. Even if they don't know I'm wealthy, they'll pick up on that. All the things I've read, The character, the character. Jesus. The authenticity, the integrity. Dude, guys are arming themselves with the wrong things. Yes. But this is also why I would probably lean away from online dating or I'd be trying to get people on the phone as fast as I could. Because I'm like, I have a magic trick that you're not going to understand on a profile. But if you let me talk to you and you let me see how attentive I am and that I'm really listening and that I'm picking up on something you said that I have an interesting follow up question.
- [91:16]
Stephan Speaks
That thing.
- [91:17]
Tom Bilyeu
Ah. The way you mentioned your dad was really interesting. You kind of like had a half smile. I'm super curious. What's your relationship like? You know what I mean? And like if, if guys would think about that without any bullshit or pretense, without faking who you are in the slightest. How do you make her feel about herself the way she's always wanted to feel?
- [91:40]
Stephan Speaks
100%. And that's why. So it's funny because as you were giving the stories, one of the things I was going to mention for the man to mention in his dating profile was something about his ability to communicate, because one of the biggest issues that women have with men is their inability to carry a conversation. And so when you were explaining your story, like I can tell, that's one of the things that intrigued the women that you dated is that not only were you attentive to listening to them asking questions, but you knew how to speak on things. You had interesting things to say. A lot of men struggle in that area, which I don't want to go all the way back, but that goes back to also foundation in the sense that when you haven't been through anything in your life, you have nothing to talk about. All right? So when you at least allow yourself to go through some things, learn some things, you have more of a wealth of information to provide. Women love a man they can learn something from. All right? Plain and simple. Now, to go back to the fact of the point of that most women are not with a man who makes six figures. That's what I was getting at. In the sense that men don't realize how many women right now are with a broke man. Okay? And yes, you can't stay there. So let's make that clear. You can't remain there. But the key is, how do you get your foot in the door to then present your character that hopefully you've built up strong enough to actually to a point where a woman would want to enjoy talking to you and being with you. And so a lot of men, when we talk about the dating profile, they have to look at it from a perspective of this is just a tool to meet people easier. That's it. And as you mentioned, you know, your superpower is talking. So I'm very much like you, where I actually just sit down. On an interview the other day, I told her how I used to always have a belief that you put me in a room with a woman. As long as he's attracted to me, I got it. I'm good. I know I can make this work because I knew just as you how to talk, how to listen, all those things. It came natural to me. I think where a lot of men struggle is they don't know how to get their foot in the door. One of the things that I think about a lot is how back in the days before all the Internet and dating apps, you saw a lot more men who may be considered Average with beautiful women. All right? And I believe that was because the environment allowed for those men to get their foot in the door, meaning they would be working with this person for a few months. She would. You would be able to make her laugh. And in her enjoying that time with you, she became attracted to you. We had more people, you know, I don't know if it was more people going to school, but I felt like more things were happening in school. You had more people introducing, you know, through family, friends, and all these different things. All it boils down to is that men had more pathways to getting their foot in the door, and then once they're there, they can make it work. So a lot of men, as you said, are arming themselves with the wrong thing, thinking that it's just money, money, money, money. No, it's more the character than anything. And you nailed it when you said, you know, if you know how to make her feel good about herself, that goes a long way. So back to the, you know, how will you present your value on the dating app? So again, I think talking about showing that you're able to communicate, showing that you have an intent for something serious, because one of the biggest complaints from women with dating apps is these men are not serious, all right? And most men who are not serious, they're very vague with their intent on these dating apps. So if you come in on your profile saying, hey, man, who loves to talk and listen or whatever the case may be, and looking for a serious relationship, or at least open to not even say open looking, hopefully can find something serious, that's essentially stating your intent is for serious, committed relationship. You've already jumped a bunch of other guys on that dating app, all right? And then the rest is just being yourself and I think and being willing to put some effort into your profile. Because we tend to be just very. A lot of us will just put pictures up one line and that's it. Women like to. They want to see, you know, read some stuff about you, if you notice. Like, women will tend to have these longer paragraphs on their dating profile. Men are very short, and it's funny because I'll tell them to flip it if you want to attract the opposite. So basically, for the women, bullet points. Make it quick and easy, all right? Give it snappy. Yes, we don't want to read all that. But for men, add a little bit more depth to your bio. That will help present more of a value and separate you from the men. But also, again, just don't go on there thinking if I don't get a woman today that this was a failure. It's an easier. It's just a tool to meet people easier. But don't neglect going out. And as you mentioned, I do think men have to learn how to transition from dating app to phone quicker. All right. Or dating app to in person date quicker. Because what I also found is that many men, and I'll even say myself, some of us are just not good at the small talk with all that chatting and being in the dm, that's just not our strength. So if you stay there too long, you can lose her interest. But if you can move it to, okay, well, we're both interested. Let's go out for coffee or let's go out to dinner. Lunch, Whatever the case you want to do. I think that would be the best, best thing for most guys.
- [97:13]
Tom Bilyeu
I hear that. Yeah, it was interesting as you were talking about the, the back and forth in DMs. That would be my nightmare. And then I was like, oh, AI is going to be able to do that? And I thought, oh my God, there's going to be all these, these first days. By the way, I'm nothing like the AI I had responding to. That'll. That'll get very interesting very fast.
- [97:31]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah.
- [97:31]
Tom Bilyeu
Okay. So one thing that I want to ask. So in terms of compatibility, kids is a big part of that equation.
- [97:39]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah.
- [97:39]
Tom Bilyeu
But also I'm curious at a more meta level, how important do you think for the. Because you have a more traditional leaning vibe, I would say, when it comes to relationships, do you think that for a traditional structure to work that there need to be kids involved? Because now all of a sudden the woman has the area where she's got a leadership role and she's handling the day to day and sort of all the things that she might long for will play out with the kids.
- [98:09]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah. I don't want to say it has to be there. I think it can be very helpful. And I think naturally most people, they want kids anyway. And I think even more so a lot of women, once they're with that man that they're really in love with, many of them, they're going to want it. Now, again, there are some people who are just wired to where kids ain't really their thing. And I don't think you have to have that to have a full, fulfilling, loving, healthy relationship. So I think it depends on the individuals involved. You know, I just, if I'm honest here, I just want more people to accept or embrace the fact that if you do want kids in your life, man or woman? We should strive for more marriages. I just think that this idea of, you know, all this content about don't get married and, you know, you can't trust marriage and blah, blah, blah, blah. I just think that's way too negative, way too damaging, and it's creating the negative cycle of things that some of these same men are complaining about.
- [99:10]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah. So don't trust marriage. It's interesting. I obviously am very fortunate that I met my wife when I was broken, so there was nothing to worry about and think, oh, I have something to lose or anything. But that, to me, really feels like that's a you problem. That's a selection problem. One of the things when I think about why I feel so like, let me just show these guys how it's done when it comes to this, is that I'm very good at reading people. So I've interviewed as an employer, I've interviewed over 1500 people. It may not sound like a lot until you run the math. And it's a lot of interviews. In fact, since I clocked that stat, I probably interviewed like more than 16 or 1700. And you really start to notice patterns of behavior, body posture, the way people hold themselves, structure of the face. I mean, there's a lot you can learn about somebody just from thin slicing them. You also get really good at asking questions. What kind of questions get people to reveal themselves? I think I heard you say this, and I agree very much. If you get somebody to talk, they will reveal who they are, absolutely 1,000%. And so when I hear people say that you can't trust this, that or the other, I'm like, no, you're not yet a good judge of character. And if you focused on getting good at that, if you focused on learning how to ask the right questions, what to pay attention to, that you would probably feel like you're standing more on terra firma than you feel now. Now, look, I get it. We all have our gifts, and part of it is I'm naturally inclined towards that. Like I said, I skew more towards the feminine side.
- [100:53]
Stephan Speaks
You probably have more intuition than the average man.
- [100:55]
Tom Bilyeu
Well, I don't believe in intuition.
- [100:56]
Stephan Speaks
Oh, you don't? It kind of sounds like that's what it is because you're able to pick up on and feel and read things in a way that it's more of an intuitive type of thing.
- [101:08]
Tom Bilyeu
Let me define what I think intuition is, and then we'll see if we agree or disagree. Intuition. You're not born with it, it's entirely trained. And so if you. I have trained myself. I've seen so many patterns over and over and over that they've done this study and they'll put three decks of cards in front of people and there's. You get like, for every high card, you get a certain point, you actually get to keep the money at the end. So it's like you want to find the deck that has the highest cards, and so you put your bet on which one of the three decks. Now, in the beginning, of course, you have no idea. So they bet randomly. The fascinating thing happens that your subconscious detects the hotter deck before your conscious mind. So they tell you when you know which one of the decks is right, then put all your bets on that. And so first it's even, and then slowly they start targeting one more than the others. And then they finally go, okay, that one's the hot one. And so they, they have them hooked up on like brain scanners and stuff, and they realize they're getting. Their subconscious is kicking off cues about the hot deck before their conscious mind realizes it. That's intuition. But they had to train it first. They had to try all the different decks. And then the subconscious mind begins to pick up on something. So what I'm saying is, yes, your subconscious mind will begin to pick up on things before your conscious mind. But if you didn't train it and train it well, you're stabbing in the
- [102:31]
Stephan Speaks
dark, so I see where you're coming from. So, okay, one, I say this. Are you familiar with the Myers Briggs? Yes. Okay. Do you know which one you are?
- [102:41]
Tom Bilyeu
I do. I'm intj.
- [102:43]
Stephan Speaks
Intj. All right. I'm infj. Now, if I am correct, the I stands for intuition.
- [102:52]
Tom Bilyeu
Yep. But now the question becomes so acknowledging that some people are going to be better, they're going to take to that. So I'll take that to mean when I get the signals, I'm able to make good on them so they don't bounce off me, they don't deflect. So kind of like a woman with that fourth photoreceptor can really see the change in shade in her baby's face. She still has to see the change in shade. So what I'm saying is, as an infant, had you been able line up a group of people and give me something to suck on and say, pick the good person or the kind person or whatever, it would be chance.
- [103:27]
Stephan Speaks
So I, I think the way that I'm looking at it, and of course, you know, I Could be wrong. But this is my perception. I think that you. It's almost like, you know, how some guys, their genetics allow them to build a physique that the next guy just can't build. All right? Now, it still requires that they hit the gym and lift weights to see the potential of that physique.
- [103:48]
Tom Bilyeu
I agree with you.
- [103:48]
Stephan Speaks
But they always content, you know, had that. So I would argue that you've always had this intuitive muscle that maybe, yes, through practice, you've now gotten so in tune with it. Because, you know what struck me is when you said, you know, you lean in the feminine like a woman. I say the same thing all the
- [104:07]
Tom Bilyeu
time and say like a woman.
- [104:09]
Stephan Speaks
I never said like a woman.
- [104:11]
Tom Bilyeu
I said I have a leaning female feminine temperament.
- [104:15]
Stephan Speaks
Yes. Okay, there you go. I misspoke. But I say the same type of thing and that's why. And I, and I believe I have intuition. But I think, again, I think it's something that you already had, but it does have to. There is a level of training involved in seeing the potential of it. Agreed.
- [104:35]
Tom Bilyeu
For sure. Going back to kids, whether we need to have kids or not is very fascinating. You said we don't need to have kids, but it can probably play out well. So I'm running this strategy of not having kids. But I, I recognize how dangerous this is and I, the only reason I feel confident in doing it is because I'm a high level communicator. Lisa's a high level communicator. We understand biology. Like there's a lot of things that we know how to basically create a life that doesn't require that. But I think most people probably should. Yeah, and they probably should because of fulfillment. Agree that it is nature's way of saying, okay, do this thing and you're going to get fulfillment. I mean, it's just not everybody's going to go ahead.
- [105:23]
Stephan Speaks
So let me counter with that. So, interestingly enough, I just had this talk with a friend where we were discussing the fact that we wonder if sometimes those of us who are highly successful, highly ambitious, if nature, God, however you want to frame it, wants us to be having kids because we would be passing down the genes or the mindset that society needs more of, so to speak. Now, again, this isn't to say that you have to do it or I have to do it.
- [105:51]
Tom Bilyeu
That's bear that out. I have a really bad feeling that dumb people have more kids.
- [105:55]
Stephan Speaks
No, I believe.
- [105:56]
Tom Bilyeu
Because the more you educate a woman, the less children she has.
- [105:59]
Stephan Speaks
Yes, I believe they have more Kids. We were discussing that maybe we should be looking at the fact that we should be having them because I don't have kids but myself. It was just a theory of maybe we are best designed to have them due to our successes. But yes, I think that sometimes when you are successful, when you are ambitious, kids become a little more, less of a priority in your life to have. You know, and for a lot of guys who are highly ambitious and successful, I think many of them have kids because of either the woman that they get with wants kids or they have an idea of they want to pass down legacy and things like that. And I was just speaking to somebody the other day, like, to me, I'm not really into the whole legacy thing because I'm like, once I'm gone, I'm gone. You know, it's like, what are we going to do? And for all, you know, and I said, if you pay attention, the people, the men who have achieved amazing, great things, it is extremely rare to have their child achieve as great or greater things. So it's almost like what legacy are they really passing on? They're just holding up your legacy at best, but they're not continuing it and then progressing it. So to me it's just like, I don't know, I don't think it's a big deal. But I just remembered the other angle that we had touched on that we didn't finish was men saying marriage isn't fair or don't trust marriage, things like that. And so what's funny is how you said, you know, you were fortunate that when you got married you were broke so you don't have to worry about losing anything. The crazy thing is the majority of these men who are saying don't get married are broke too. And they're fearful of losing money they don't even have yet. Right? Not realizing that marriage is a great wealth building tool if you use it correctly. So there's just a lot of misconceptions. I also think to your point, the issue is one poor selection process. I'm always saying that men tend to be horrible selectors of wives. A lot of men have overlooked some really clear red flags. Like, I cannot tell you how many times I've had men in my DMs and the message will be like, I have this woman and you know, she doesn't respect me and she does this to me and she does that. But man, I don't want to lose her. I'm like, what? So it's clear as day she's not Best for you. But you're asking me how you can hold on to this.
- [108:24]
Tom Bilyeu
That's weird.
- [108:24]
Stephan Speaks
And then you'll end up being the man who marries her. And then when it falls apart, it's marriage this, women that. No, you chose the wrong person. The other side to it that I think men need to be more mindful of is I agree that there are certain places that the marriage laws are not favorable to men. That's just the reality. I think, though, that men are not educating themselves, one, on the marriage laws in their specific state so they know what they're up against if they do get married.
- [108:51]
Tom Bilyeu
And.
- [108:51]
Stephan Speaks
And two, I think more people should consider prenups if that's their concern. I think the problem with the prenup discussion is that people have not educated themselves on what that actually means and why it would be beneficial for both sides. Women, when they hear prenup, they hear a man trying to hide his money from me, right? And what I want both sides to realize is, listen, when you get married, you are signing a marriage contract whether you like it or not. You're either going to sign the state's contract or you're going to create your own contract. Why not create your own with your own parameters?
- [109:25]
Tom Bilyeu
Guys love you for that.
- [109:27]
Stephan Speaks
You know what I'm saying? And my thing is, the best time to discuss and hammer out a favorable contract to both sides is before you get married, when you're still in love with each other and happy. Because by the time, if it ever, God forbid, reaches divorce and you all don't like each other, at this point, people. People make divorce difficult because they're bitter, because there's resentment, because they feel that they were betrayed. They're holding on to hurt. So you want to address these things before those negative emotions come into play. So to me, if you have that discussion with a woman and you also go into it with the mindset of, I'm not trying to screw you over, right? If, you know it's one thing, if you're coming in with assets you want to protect, that's fine. But we should be reasonable enough as men that if we build a kingdom with this woman, she is entitled to a portion of it. We can argue whether that's 50%, 40%, whatever. But you shouldn't be like, oh, well, she should get nothing because I did the main work. No, because to your point, though, she may not be the one doing the work. She has given you the inspiration. She has given you the flexibility. She's provided certain comforts and benefits that has freed you up in a way that you can pursue these things and achieve these things.
- [110:40]
Tom Bilyeu
Also, if you married someone, that doesn't make you a better version of yourself. You're a moron.
- [110:44]
Stephan Speaks
There you go.
- [110:45]
Tom Bilyeu
Like, when I think about. So Lisa and I, we were broke when we got together, so it's easy. But there. I don't think this is controversial in my marriage. Lisa would never become an entrepreneur if it wasn't for me. I know through her actions that she believes that I carried more weight than she did. But when we founded Impact Theory, and the attorney said, one of you needs to own 51% and the other needs to own 49, it doesn't matter who. But you guys don't create the ultimate divorce nightmare. And I said, no, create the ultimate divorce nightmare. I need her to know in her bones that she is my equal in every way, that she has carried equal weight this whole time. She is. Whether I'm the right one to lead in the business is irrelevant. Without her, I would not have become who I've become. We wouldn't have built what we've built together. She's just truly, truly my equal. And I can do that. One, because I chose well and my wife is high integrity. Two, because I know that we can navigate each other and that it isn't going to end in divorce. And three, I wouldn't be an honorable man, in my opinion, if I were trying to, in any way, shape or form, use legalities to ice out the woman who built this with me.
- [112:14]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah.
- [112:15]
Tom Bilyeu
And. But now let me be very clear. God forbid something happens to my wife. I got remarried. I'd prenup. Because you're coming along. It's already done.
- [112:22]
Stephan Speaks
Exactly.
- [112:22]
Tom Bilyeu
It's like, we're not. It's not something we're building together. And I would be honorable in that as well. I would not try to, you know, take advantage of her in that moment. But. But that, to me, like, people need to be really thoughtful about. How do you want her to feel? I wanted Lisa to know. I've told her my entire relationship with her, you're more important to me than the business. And then when I have a chance to get 51%, what message does it send? If I'm like, yeah, give me 51%? Like, I would have given her 51%, sure, go for it. I don't care. But that really does come down to confidence in my own abilities to be the right person to lead, that we will stay emotionally connected and in love, that this won't harden into bitterness. And all that. It's a tricky ball game, but it's utterly fascinating.
- [113:09]
Stephan Speaks
Yeah. And I think there's also the aspect of, you know, what's funny is, again, you get a lot more pushback from men who have not achieved and succeeded yet or who are not wealthy about the whole money.
- [113:20]
Tom Bilyeu
They don't know how to manage their
- [113:21]
Stephan Speaks
relationship and don't know how to manage their money either. And so the point I was going to add to that was, so I've talked to some men who are married, who are successful, and they tend to have the mindset of like, you know, what, she can take what she needs to take, because there's confidence in themselves that they can rebuild this if they have to. They're not going to be left out, stranded. This is not going to destroy them. I think a lot of these men view it as like, if I give this up, then it's over for me and what am I going to do? And there's this fear because they have not built themselves up to a point point where they feel like they can withstand a situation like that. So it's just interesting that I've noticed that in all the successful, ambitious men, they just. It's not a problem for them to give that woman whatever she needs to make sure she's good, she's taken care of, and you move on if it came to that, you know.
- [114:10]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah, it's tough. So trying to mind read the people that will respond poorly to this. There really are some people that they're not good at that. And so it becomes a game of. So if you think about masculinity as a spectrum, there are far more autistic men than autistic women. Guys are more interested in things than people. I see how men are ill equipped to navigate this, that they can be emotionally confused by the woman who sees things that they don't, can read the situation, read their own emotions, understand their, you know, feelings, foibles and insecurities better than they do. And this goes back to my initial point, which is when the relationship is established as adversarial from the beginning, then you're going to get really dark outcomes.
- [115:01]
Stephan Speaks
Yes.
- [115:01]
Tom Bilyeu
And if there were one thing that I could just, you know, sprinkle, snap my fingers and change, it would be that people come into it really trying to be partners, wanting to be honorable. So one of. One of the most meaningful things in my life is I'm the same person in divorce that I am in marriage. So obviously I've never broken up with my wife, but I'VE been in business long enough that things come together, things fall apart. And in those moments, I have been me all the way through. And that's something you do for yourself. Because in the moment, it's probably less advantageous. You will get less out of the deal if you're trying to stay true to the values that you came into the relationship with. When the other person's not playing like that, they're trying to be aggressive and playing to win and all that. But by doing that, you get to be the per. In my case, the person I want to be. Right. So if people could come into relationships like that, if. When you see a vulnerability in your partner, if you're trying to help them shore that up, help elevate them, they have to do the work, and nobody wants the guy that wallows in it for 30 days and all that. But I think that would be a game changer.
- [116:15]
Stephan Speaks
No, absolutely. I mean, at the end of the day, both men and women have to stop looking at each other like the enemy and have to stop projecting their specific bad experiences onto everyone else, because that's really what's happening. A lot of these men who are struggling with women, because again, they've holding on to that last rejection, they're holding on to that last heartbreak. And again, they're also letting the Internet confuse them with all the things that they're hearing being said. Because I always make the point that I believe in the comments section on the Internet, miserable people are the loudest. All right? Happy people don't have time to be sitting in all the comments sections constantly saying this, that, and other. And so people gain this very negative perception based off of how people engage on the Internet, and it contaminates their thinking on how they view the opposite sex, how they view relationships. Like, I'm a believer in there's a right person. And at the very least, if you don't believe in it as a one, there is a person that fits you. And even if you believe there's multiple people, you still need the right fit for it to work. I think too many people just see someone that they like, see a couple of things that they feel are, you know, what they desire, and they think, okay, I'm going to make it work with this person. It doesn't really work like that. Some have gotten lucky to where that person ended up being the person they're in alignment with. But if there's no alignment there, you're going to have a lot of conflict that most people cannot handle and properly process through and so healing, learning how to communicate, all these things are important if we want to have healthier and happier relationships.
- [117:56]
Tom Bilyeu
Let me ask you, will you be sad if you never get married?
- [118:02]
Stephan Speaks
H. That's a damn good question. I. I wouldn't. And. And only because, you know, I'm. I'm a believer and my faith in God. Yeah, a man of faith. And so for me, it's like, if something doesn't happen, I chalk it up to that. You know what? This was the purpose that I had here on this world, and this is what God wanted. So. So be it. Like, I don't. I don't let things I don't let. Like, so there's a level of disappointment in the sense that, yeah, I would want it, right? But I've learned not to dwell in disappointment or let what I think I want consume me to the point that now I'm going to let this drag me to a negative place because I understand that what I want isn't always what's best. You know, there's been plenty of times I swore I was ready for marriage, okay? And now looking back, I'm like, thank God it did not happen yet. Because of that person, because of things I still needed to learn, still things I needed to cultivate, things that I needed to. Not perfect, but just improve upon. You know, One of the things I'll give you an example that I think is important for the men to hear is I have this thing that I call learning how to love in your masculine. And so I think a lot of men, when they fall in love with a woman, we slide into our feminine and to a point where we sometimes become overly needy, very emotional, clingy, insecure, all these things. And we also operate out of this scarcity mindset. Like, I'm never going to find anything like this again. And not to say that that woman is replaceable, so to speak, it's just to understand that if it can't work with her, then it's someone else it can work with, okay? But because we slide into that, we end up becoming less attractive to that woman because it was that masculine energy that drew her in. And now we're being all feminine, and it's like, what's going on here? Or at the very least, we're not being masculine.
- [120:08]
Tom Bilyeu
So how do you love in the masculine?
- [120:10]
Stephan Speaks
So loving in the masculine starts with removing the feminine fear of losing this woman. There has to be an acceptance of, okay, yes, I'm here to pour into her and build something amazing with her, but if she walks Away from me for whatever reason, I will be okay. I will be fine. I don't have to just live in this constant fear. Because again, it's the fear that drives us to doing stupid stuff. You know when people say, well, love makes you stupid? It's not love, it's fear. The problem is, and this is my personal theory, it's that whole balance of life where, you know, like in the movies, the minute a superhero comes about, a villain has to come behind. That's just the way life is. Good and evil has to have a balance. So once love arises, fear will try to counter it. It is the normal thing that happens in people's lives. And so if you are not healed enough, you can't fight off the fear. All right? And again, most people aren't healed enough. So the fear consumes them and it causes them to act in all kinds of stupid ways or silly ways. That only causes more problems. So to loving your masculine, it starts with not being fearful anymore. It also starts with understanding that whole being vulnerable versus being emotionally unstable. So the example I'll give is it's one thing to go to a woman and say, oh my gosh, I love you so much. Please don't leave me. I can't live my life without you. Versus listen, I love you. You are special to me. You mean the world to me, and I'm here to make this work. We communicated the same thing, but one comes off very weak, very fragile, and it's unattractive. The other comes off strong, but still expressive. The woman's still going to feel very loved. So that's loving in your masculine, where you can stand strong, where you can have composure, when you can have confidence and express yourself clearly to that woman. I think a lot of men fall into this. You know, a lot of us are sold this fairy tale of when you love this woman, you put her on a pedestal and you treat her like a queen, which you do do those things. But it goes to the point where men lose themselves and they lose sight of, again, the things that drew her in. The other key to loving in your masculine is you must remain in your purpose. So even you mentioned it. You said, there's one thing you will not give up and that's your ambition. That's who you are, that's your purpose. That's what makes you you. And the reality is that's what she loves about you. Like, if you took that away, you would not look the same to her. So a lot of men, they find this woman and they release their Ambition, they release their purpose and they focus solely on her, thinking that this will win her over. That's pushing her away. Because again, how can she feel safer for a man who walks away from his purpose? How can she feel like you're going to make wise decisions? What masculine energy are you going to exude if you're not walking in the confidence of your purpose and the focus of your purpose? So to me, those are like the three pillars of loving in your masculine. And if men learned how to do that, they would see so much more success. Because you have a lot of men who say, well, these men don't want a good guy. That's not true. They do want a good man. The problem is when we are good, we become good. But we're really being soft, we're being overly emotional. We're being all these things that now are a burden to her. If we just learn that, no, no, no, no, you can still be a good masculine man, she'll love it. She's not going to want to walk away from that. And it's just a lot of men haven't. They don't understand that concept. It's not their fault. People have not taught that. But it's something that I think if we learned it and mastered it, so many more men will start winning in their relationships.
- [124:03]
Tom Bilyeu
I love it. Where can people follow you?
- [124:05]
Stephan Speaks
You can find me. Go to askstephanspeaks.com and from there they can get everything else.
- [124:11]
Tom Bilyeu
I love it. All right, guys, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace.
- [124:18]
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