The #1 Money Lesson School Failed To Teach You [Escape The Rate Race] | Codie Sanchez PT 2

Summary

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Impact Theory w/ Tom Bilyeu

Episode: The #1 Money Lesson School Failed To Teach You [Escape The Rat Race] | Codie Sanchez PT 2

Date: September 27, 2023
Guest: Codie Sanchez

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode dives deeply into the real “money lessons” that schools and society rarely teach: breaking free from limiting mindsets, understanding the true source of wealth, and using practical strategies (like acquiring "boring” small businesses) to become financially independent and sovereign. Tom Bilyeu and Codie Sanchez challenge conventional wisdom, promoting critical thinking about money, opportunity, and success—while giving actionable advice and sharing raw, personal experiences.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Real Reason People Stay Poor: Mindset over Money

• Tom’s Perspective (04:38):
  “Poverty is not a money problem. It's a mindset problem. People stop themselves before they begin.”

• Many people simply do not want outsized success enough, or let their environment hold them back.

• “Life is going to kick you in the face... the thing that's hardest... is knowing that if you quit, all the pain goes away.” (01:34)

• Codie’s Experience:

  • Grew up seeing the “crabs in a bucket” mentality—families holding each other back due to fear of loss or change.
  • She advises people: “You can live your life in actions that show [your family/community] that it's possible and that you won't leave them behind... but if they won't, then you will have to leave them behind.” (07:26)

2. Escaping Limiting Environments

• Codie’s biggest life shift? “Finding others who already had the life I wanted to live and trying to engage with them more often.” (08:51)

• She insists that “money might be contagious”—being around ambitious, successful people changes what you believe is possible.

• Codie’s strategy early on: work for the wealthiest people she could, even for free, to learn by osmosis.

  “Money spends once, knowledge monetizes forever.” — Tom Bilyeu (11:03)

3. Working for Free & 'Shortcutting' the Learning Curve

• Tom laments that younger generations resist unpaid work, missing out on long-term knowledge. Codie agrees, sharing examples of how she still provides free value to powerful people as a door-opener—offering unsolicited, high-value help to figures like Vivek Ramaswamy and Andreessen Horowitz’s Sri. (12:18–14:17)

4. The Power and Opportunity in Buying Small, Boring Businesses

• Ripping the veil off entrepreneurship, Codie explains how millions of small businesses are for sale:

  • 11–12 million in the US—many not even listed.
  • Most small businesses are sold between 2–6x their profit.
  • Seller financing is common (60%), meaning you often don’t need all the cash upfront.

• “All around us are businesses open to being bought... It would be like if you looked at 12 houses on a street and 10–11 were for sale.” — Codie (16:56)

• Why share this secret?

  • Codie can’t buy them all.
  • Wants a movement—not mass consolidation under “Walmart, Walgreens… the big companies.” (20:34)
  • She wants others to combine, grow, and then she may acquire bigger conglomerates.

• Tom: “Instead of going and, like, trying to drop ship a bunch of fucking nonsense, talk to some of your local business owners.” (21:51)

5. Thinking Big vs. Staying Small

• Codie relates advice from mentor Bill Perkins:

  “Do you think investing in small business so long, small has infected your thinking?” (24:09)

• Tom and Codie discuss the humility of being “rich” until you meet someone two levels up (e.g., being wowed by a $22 million painting at P. Diddy’s house).

6. How Much Money is Enough?

• They dispute the classic $72,000–$100,000 happiness threshold.

• True financial “richness” for both? $500,000/year.

• “You’ll feel rich when you make $500,000 a year.” — Tom (29:49)

• Both emphasize: Above a certain point, more money doesn’t add material happiness; the focus shifts to impact and purpose.

7. Money as Power (and the Limits of Redistribution Arguments)

• Tom: “Money is power. There's basically no time you won't think ‘I wish I was a little more powerful.’”

• Discuss public attitudes and misunderstandings of wealth, zero-sum thinking, wealth vs. money, and how economic misconceptions breed resentment and keep people poor. (34:33–35:05)

• Codie: “Wealth is just the manipulation of entropy to be creation instead, or betterment instead.” (36:20)

8. Critical Thinking and Ownership As Path To Sovereignty

• Critical thinking, not "manifesting," makes people successful.
• “On a long enough timeline, I can beat anyone at anything. Because life is a game of attrition and most people will quit. And I won’t.” — Tom (42:20)
• Codie: “My mission is all about skin in the game… people becoming owners… that is the modern day sword and shield.” (65:32)
• True sovereignty: Health, critical thinking, and assets—the unassailable path to freedom.

9. Practical Deal-Making: Codie’s Playbook for Acquiring Businesses

• Approach: “Curiosity, empathy, pain-pushing, solution-giving.” (53:37)

• Don’t pitch with “what you want to change”; deeply understand owners’ stories and pain points first.

• Provide value in every interaction—sometimes just a valuation or advice, knowing word-of-mouth matters.

• You don’t need all three: time, money, experience. Use the “get rich tripod.”

  • Money = highest leverage (least limiting).
  • Experience = best deal-making power.
  • Time = sweat equity for those with nothing else.

• “There are people every day that I hire and get equity in my businesses because they operate them… because they have experience.” (64:11)

10. On Partnerships and Relationships as Life’s True Wealth

• Both Tom and Codie extol the irreplaceable value of a healthy romantic partnership.

• Tom: “No amount of success, no amount of money can possibly touch the rewards of a successful romantic partnership. It is the greatest joy life has to offer you.” (45:41)

• Codie: “Having a partner that I know can weather the storm with me is an absolute game changer… That second set of hands is something missing in a lot of this generation.” (44:00)

11. Developing Critical, Contrarian Thinking

• Codie’s approach: Study the greats—Galileo, Churchill, Christopher Hitchens, Thomas Sowell—and build frameworks for yourself.
• Launched a Contrarian Thinking Instagram for this purpose. (67:53)
• “Question everything—including me, maybe especially me.” (53:37)

12. Purpose & Self-Knowledge Over External Validation

• Most people know their purpose if they’re willing to spend time in stillness and self-reflection.
• “The best advice is the advice you give yourself.” — Codie (82:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tom Bilyeu:

  • "Money spends once, knowledge monetizes forever." (11:03)
  • "Poverty is not a money problem. It's a mindset problem." (04:38)
  • "On a long enough timeline, I can beat anyone at anything. Because life is a game of attrition and most people will quit. And I won’t." (42:20)
  • "No amount of success, no amount of money can possibly touch the rewards of a successful romantic partnership." (45:41)

• Codie Sanchez:

  • "I actually think that money might be contagious and that if you are around people who have it, the exact opposite of everything we think happens." (08:51)
  • "Everyone wants the hack. Be the person who wants the work." (52:24)
  • "Choose being the victor over the victim. Always." (52:28)
  • "Curiosity, empathy, pain pushing, solution giving." (53:37)
  • "Question everything—including me, maybe especially me." (53:37)
  • "Sovereignty is the ability to be a self providing island in a world of humans that need connection in order to survive." (65:32)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Entrepreneurship as “being kicked in the face” & mindset talk: 00:45–05:17
• Overcoming environment, family ‘bucket mentality’: 05:17–08:28
• Finding mentors and exposure to wealth/money contagion: 08:51–11:04
• Working for free, doors to opportunity: 11:03–14:30
• Play-by-play: How to buy a boring business: 15:12–22:57
• Thinking on ‘levels’ & pushing past small thinking: 23:14–25:53
• What is the real ‘rich’ number? $500K/year: 28:16–29:49
• Money as power and zero-sum misunderstandings: 31:02–36:29
• Critical vs. conformist thinking, sovereignty: 65:15–69:42
• Codie’s "personal P&L" and practical business acquisition: 59:58–62:46
• Romantic relationships and life partners: 44:00–46:05

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Practical Takeaways

• Don’t let environment or family limit your ambition; seek new networks.
• Working for free (strategically) is an undervalued fast track to knowledge.
• Acquiring small, existing businesses is a hidden goldmine—favor seller financing.
• “Get rich tripod”: Money, experience, time—leverage what you have, recruit for what you lack.
• True power/freedom = health + assets + critical thinking (sovereignty).
• Critical thinking is a skill—cultivate it by studying history’s contrarian thinkers and questioning your own assumptions.
• The right partner can multiply every aspect of success and resilience.

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This episode is packed with actionable insights, philosophy, and practical frameworks for building wealth and sovereignty outside traditional paths—delivered with the raw authenticity, wit, and drive that define both Tom Bilyeu and Codie Sanchez.

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Transcript

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[Cody Sanchez]

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[Tom Bilyeu]

Welcome back for part two with Cody Sanchez, where we're diving into the gateway to success and her recipe for turning boring companies into a financial empire. It's an incredible example of a simple idea, well executed, that you'll be able to deploy in your own life. Everyone has to learn how to break free of small thinking if you want to achieve outsized success. And that's what part two with Cody Sanchez is all about. That is. You know, when I think about why people fail, it's two things. They either lack clarity or they don't want it badly enough.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And if you don't want it badly enough, because here's the reality. So the promise of this episode is that you, you really can lift the curtain up, get so knowledgeable that you can generate wealth and not be controlled by other people. But it takes a lot. Like, you really have to get good at something that is extraordinarily multifaceted. Like, it's really multifaceted. There are a lot of different things you're gonna have to come to understand, and it's gonna take an egregious amount of time, and you are really gonna have to want it because life is going to kick you in the face. The way that I explain entrepreneurship to people and I'll be curious to see if this resonates with your experience, is it's like being kicked in the face and you're choking to death on your own blood and teeth and you're gasping for air and everything is riding on this moment, and you're in extreme pain. Extreme pain. And the thing that's hardest, because it isn't the pain, it's knowing that if you quit, all the pain goes away. It stops instantly. Your teeth snap back into place, there's no more blood. It's instantly okay. And in the back, your mind, that little thing is just with you. Like, hey, you could coast. You could be one of those B players and you could just get by and let somebody else cover it and all will be well and you won't control your destiny. But for most people, that's okay. And I, I don't know how to feel about that. I weep for them, but I. Maybe I'm wrong. Like I am. So distrust yourself, right? Part of my whole thesis. I definitely distrust my own assessment.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But I remember when at Quest, so to your point, we had hired all these ex convicts and some of them turned their lives around and some of them didn't. And I just couldn't fathom how you're given this opportunity to rise up, to make money. We're growing so fast. Whatever job you can get yourself prepared for, you can have. We had one guy go from. So he, he came. It's funny, he started working at Quest as a front for his drug money, which he admitted to me later. And he said, you know, it just ended up being such a great opportunity and you seem to care so much about me that I decided that I was going to go straight. And he just learned and learned and learned and ended up going from minimum wage line worker to making over a hundred thousand dollars in like it's like nine months or something. I mean, it's just ridiculously fast because he just kept being the right person for the job and just getting promoted, promoted, promoted. And at the same time, that same guy got in a fist fight with somebody who said, you've changed because you're reading. And I thought, wait a second. That guy is so mad about somebody wanting something and striving for it that instead of being inspired and going, okay, I want that pressure. I want to turn into a diamond. He got so angry, it was such a challenge to his identity that he threw punches at this guy who was one of his best friends.

[Cody Sanchez]

Wow.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I made him tell me that story like eight times. Because I was like, wait, what? I'm like, you actually got into a physical altercation? Yes, Tom. He threw a punch at you? Yes, Tom. I was like, what the fuck world do you. I was like, that is absurd. Like, you've got to get away from people like that. And that was really when I realized, and let's see how angry I can make people. But I believe this with all sincerity. I have dedicated my life to this problem. So people need to think about that before they get too pissed. Poverty is not a money problem. It's a mindset problem. People stop themselves before they begin. They don't think, oh, I can go get better at this thing, but I'm gonna have to want it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. You know, it's fascinating. When we lived in what I'll call the. You know, it was the hood in D.C. basically, what I found fascinating is Chris had just come back from the Middle east, so he was at war during that, which means you have hypervigilance. So, you know, he's very aware of his surroundings. Wound super, super tight at. We made friends with our neighborhood drug dealer, as you do, as one does. And what was interesting is I understood something then that I had never understood before, which is that the stress level of living at the poverty level or even being surrounded by it. We weren't at a poverty level. I was actually doing really well. We just happened to buy a house in a place that we didn't really think about that much, and it was one of our second homes. So we were like, oh, this is a cool street that was actually surrounded in D.C. by not cool streets. And what was fascinating to me is I felt this stress, basically. I felt the stress of what it must feel like to live in that every single day. And there's a young woman who lived across the street from us. Most of the families around us had, like, four generations living in one townhouse. And so she would come over when she found out that we went to college, because she thought that was really cool, and that we had been on an airplane, which was crazy. And. And so we would talk to her about, you know, what could she go to college? Couldn't we apply for some grants? Like, you know, Howard University? You know, they have an amazing grant program and. And anything. Anyway, one thing I thought was fascinating is she, to your point, hid it from her family. So she had, like, cousins and brothers

[Tom Bilyeu]

that she wanted to go to college.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. And that she was talking to us. So we would talk to her when her family wasn't around. But when her family was around, she'd just kind of look at us down the street because they would all look at us. So, like, the lines were never to be crossed. And so I do think there is a real thing about crabs in the bucket. And, you know, my realization was different, not so dramatic. But I realized, listen, the people who love you now, your family, they love you as you are. They don't love the new you that you're going to be. It's just scary for them. They think they're going to lose you. They think you'll think you're better than them. They think you might realize that their failures, all their projections and insecurities come out. So that's what we would talk to her about, would be like, listen, you know, this is something you probably can't change in your family. You probably can't explain it away to them. And the only thing you can do is you can live your life at. In actions that show them that it's possible and that you won't leave them behind. And hopefully, if you do that, they'll come along with you. But if they won't, then you will have to leave them behind. But I had never felt before the stress and pressure to conform and the stress and pressure to also not engage with people that were bettering themselves. And I'll never forget that because, like, in the Hispanic community that I was in, that wasn't a thing. Really. It was, we don't want you to move away. Like, could we stay close as a family? And that is a limiting factor in some ways, but it wasn't. Don't become something else entirely.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Thank God.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. So that's something that I at least didn't have to have to shoulder as a burden. But that is everywhere.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. Did you have to change your identity? In fact, I will ask. The community had a question for you, and that was, what was the shift that you made that had the biggest impact towards your success?

[Cody Sanchez]

I think the biggest shift. The biggest shift for me, period, end of story, was finding others who already had the life that I wanted to live and trying to engage with them more often. That was it. It was. I actually think that money might be contagious and that if you are around people who have it, the exact opposite of everything we think happens or we're told as a society, like, rich people don't care. Rich people aren't giving. You know, the rich people only want X, y, and Z. I found that to be the total opposite of true, Especially when you're young and especially if you're hungry. Rich people love to be told how smart they are. They love to tell their stories, and oftentimes they love to be the enabler. We all think that, like, oh, we're smart. I got it figured out. Let me tell you my sage advice that I've learned from all of this. Face kicking, awful pain. Let me make it mean something. And so I got around any human I could who had a life that I wanted, like, cool business, you know, healthy bodies, big bank accounts. And I just started trying to learn from them. And the first way I did that is I was assistant to the wealthiest woman that I knew in Arcadia at the time. And I Took her dry cleaning and laundry. And I drove her Hummers one time. I drove her Hummer, actually, and I ran it into the garage, and I didn't tell her about it for, like, 10 years. I paid her back later. How awful is that? So, like, you know, I did people's work because I wanted to be around them. So smart enough. And you know what? Those guys, they ended up giving me a million dollars into one of my first investments. So that was like, 15 years later. He took one of. One of the first risks on me that I'll never, never forget. Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This is why it drives me crazy. Kids today. What's the matter with kids today?

[Cody Sanchez]

This how we know we're getting old.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I know Jada says, I'm much older than you, my dear, so. Yeah. But the thing that drives me crazy is that people will freak out at the thought of working for free. And I'm like, bro, listen. Money spends once, knowledge monetizes forever.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's a great line.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So I. All day, I would work for some. If they have knowledge that I want all day, I would work for them for free. And I would work until my little fingers bend, bled. Like, I want the knowledge because I know what I can do with it, man. Somebody can shortcut your learning curve. Also, I'm somebody that grew up without the Internet. So for me, like, the thought of the. The fact that you put all this information out and people can just, like, learn how you buy business is crazy town.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah. Or Ray Dalio's book.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

I mean, I would pay so much money to go join Warren Buffett's masterclass.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like, correct.

[Cody Sanchez]

Like, unparalleled amounts of money. But, you know, it's a really good point, because I work for free all the time right now, actually, one of my little moves that I like to do is I don't think I've ever talked about this. So when I find somebody that I think's interesting and they are in a position of power, that's more than me. I try to think about, what's one thing that I could give them for free. What does free work today? Cody Sanchez as is, I'm pretty successful. I have some money I put together. For instance, I met Vivek Ramaswamy, right? So I met him at a conference. I thought he had some interesting ideas. I was like, huh?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Was he already running for president?

[Cody Sanchez]

He was already running for president and stuff. I agree with him. Some stuff I don't. But he was backstage in a room that I was at, and he was running Around. I couldn't really get to him, but I saw one of his, like, lackeys with him, right? And so I was like, huh. And so I just really quick was like, God, what would I know that Vivek wouldn't know? I'm like, well, he already has lots of money. He's definitely built bignesses. I was like, oh, social media. I know a thing about that. So I go on to social media real quick. I'm like, yeah, it's not that good. So I go over to this woman and I'm like, hey, by the way, I'm Cody. Nice to meet you. I'm like, one of the speakers here, too. Oh, you're with Vivic. Great. I'm like, oh, husband, former Navy seal. You know, now you have to pay attention to us. And. And then I started talking to her. I'm like, man, you're social. Like, here's what I would do different. Here's a couple things that I don't think are that great. Whatever. I'm like, listen, let me send you, like, give me your email. Let me send you a quick analysis of what I would do for your social. So we end up doing that. I put together this who. Like, one page. It's a big brief. Probably took me five hours to put together. And on the brief is all this stuff I would change on his social and why. And. And then I had a member of my team do some analysis too. We shot it over. Next thing you know, Vivek's reaching out now. We're kind of buds. We go out and do his podcast. We meet him in person. Great. And I was like, huh, that worked once. And so then I did the same thing for this other guy, sri, who's a big investor at Andreessen Horowitz.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Sure, I'm right.

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay. So SRI reaches out to me and. And gets me involved in this creator group that he has. Oh, right, the one that we're in. And. And I looked up his background. I'm like, huh. Always wanted to, like, meet Elon. Maybe one day we could make that happen. Sri. SRI knows Elon. Now, I've never mentioned this to sri, but I'm like, huh, Let me put together a whole thing. Analysis versus three. And I did it for his content, and I did it for his podcast. Shit that I would do different. And I sent it to him. I didn't ask for a thing. I don't want anything from them, but maybe one day they'll remember that, right?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I may come to you.

[Cody Sanchez]

Exactly.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's Good, that was good. I like that.

[Cody Sanchez]

My favor is not big enough though. I need like a suitcase full of cash. But like, why would I stop doing that now? Why would I stop doing free work now? No, no reason.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I do not understand people's reaction to that. I don't understand.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, well, and also the fact that the government tells you not to do it usually tells me that it's probably a good thing to do, you know?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, Brutal. All right. I want to walk through you, how you go about actually buying one of these businesses. This is like the most genius cool thing ever for people that either they want to, they really want a side hustle or whatever, but they're gonna go do something dumb. It's going to be drop shipping on a product they don't believe in. They don't give a, it's not profitable already, they're going to lose a ton of money.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yep.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So the first time I heard you walk through this, I was like, oh my God, this is very impressive. So, yeah, let's, let's get into the weeds.

[Cody Sanchez]

How do you do it? Okay, let's start with real boring businesses. So this is like the 1.0 version first, I would say do me a solid. There's a blog post on there called like 20 ways to fuck up Doing a deal. So before you buy a business, please read that because buy a one.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Ms. Cody Sanchez.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yes. Oh, yeah. contrarian thinking. So why I want you to read that first is because the problem with investing or buying anything is there's risk always. And so I'm very honest with people about the fact this is not, you know, e trade where I tell you to do this thing and you're obviously going to make a million dollars. Like there's risk and it takes work. Now if you can understand that, read those things. The next step, I would say is basically this, that all around us right now today there's something like 11 to 12 million small businesses in the US that are up for sale. If you go in a room with entrepreneurs, you could try this at any time, it's kind of fun and go, a bunch of entrepreneurs who are like growth minded, like we are, and maybe even still in growth stage. And you go, how many of you would sell your business at the right price and the right terms? At least 60% of the room, their hands are going to go up. You go in a room with people who are 60 years and older, 90% of the hands in the room go up. Most people will sell their business and they have already done what you said, which is stacked skills and are ready for the next transition. Most people are, which is fascinating. So if you believe those two things. 11 to 12 million small businesses for sale. Most small business owners, not even listed are interested in selling. Then you realize that there is. It would be like if you were on a street in the US and you looked at 12 houses for sale, 10 to 11 of them. I'm sorry, 12 houses on a street, 10 to 11 of them are for sale.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's crazy.

[Cody Sanchez]

All around us are businesses that are open to being bought. And most businesses will not sell within a year. And the reason I know this is because we have data on thousands and thousands and thousands of acquisitions and most collect that data. Well, we have, we get 100 million views a month across our social media, while you guys do a lot more. We do 100 million views a month and we have thousands of members of our community that are all interested in business buying and they submit deals every single week. So we get like, I can't even tell you how many deals submitted a week. What we need to do is what you're doing. We need to add tech to it going forward. That's this, that's what like keeps me up at night, is thinking about all the shit we're doing wrong. You too. Yeah, yeah. Face punch. Face fly. So all these small businesses are for sale. The part that's interesting about this is that most of these small businesses sell from anywhere from 2 to 6x the profit, right? So if a small business makes $100,000 a year, it's worth anywhere from 200 to $600,000. Broad generalization, but mostly true. Now most people think, well, I don't have 200 to $600,000, so just ignore Cody. The interesting part about that is 60% of small businesses are sold using what's called seller financing, right? So I make $100,000 a year in profit. I'm the business owner. Nobody wants to buy my business because 11 of the 12 houses on the street are also up for sale, or 11, the 12 other businesses on the street are also up for sale. So I need to make my business look more attractive. Because of that, I am going to offer seller financing, which means instead of you having to give me the money or go to a bank, I'm going to say I make 100k a year in profit. You need to pay me 300,000 for my business. Why don't you pay me 300,000 over 5 years so that you can take from the hundred thousand dollars profit the Payment you're going to give me across five years. You can keep some profit yourself, but I can take some profit off the table and I can exit my business. And so when I realized this was the case, I was like, wait a second, why don't I just buy some of these? They're already profitable, they're already up and running. I don't have to take debt on the business. I maybe don't even have to personal guarantee it. Which you would. Which is what you would do if you had the government give you a loan. The sba. I can just work direct with the seller. And so that's what I talk to people about all day. Because here's the problem. And if you don't believe me, go to Google. Go to Google right now, now, and type in Japan's business crazy selling crisis all over Japan, they're giving away businesses for free.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Crazy.

[Cody Sanchez]

Or the businesses are shutting down. And that's happening right now in the US to the tune. Where now all the time you're gonna, if you go, you know, ideas I feel like are like they're like the flu. It's like once you like somebody sneezes on you, you like get it and it spreads all over your body, you know. And I think now that I've said this, you'll notice people are talking about born in businesses, people are talking about M and A now it's becoming a thing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But two years ago made it a thing.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think we did. Which was cool.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Very fair. At 100 million views a month. Yeah, I would say you can lay claim to that.

[Cody Sanchez]

I do get excited when I see people on Twitter using my exact tweets for it. I'm like, I see you. I know we did that first. And so this is happening all over the place. And the reason that I care about this, why would I go yell about this on the Internet? Why don't I just buy all these businesses? One, I can't buy them all. Two of these businesses are small, so they're super hard to aggregate. What I actually need to have happen is I need a bunch of people to go buy up these businesses and turn the onesie twosies into twosies and fivesies where they combine them. And then once they're at twosies, fives, these tensies, I can buy the bigger ones. But we actually need a groundswell movement of humans buying these businesses. Otherwise what's going to happen? Walmart, Walgreens, the big companies are going to own all of them, just like they're doing with single family homes. Except on steroids. And I don't like that idea. I mean, you have seen this from traveling all over the country. There was a period when I was in private equity where I was traveling every single week. I was on like three different planes a week in three different cities.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You hit the Million Mile Club, right?

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah. I mean, that's bananas. I was all over the place and I started to realize, God, Topeka looks just like Milwaukee looks just like. Because they're all strip malls. Like, that sucks. Nobody wants strip malls with commercial conglomerates. We want the little mom and pop stores. So my mission is like, listen, you can buy these businesses. You can use seller financing to do it. Not always, but like, let's just ease you in with this idea that that could be the case. And these businesses are not rocket science to run. They are painful. There's hard work there for sure, but you don't have to be a genius to do it. In fact, your community might need you to do it. And they're all around you. So instead of going and like trying to drop ship a bunch of fucking nonsense, you know, talk to some of your local business owners around you and see if you might be able to even. Instead of coming and working for us, even go talk to your local hardware store owner who's probably looking like he's going to retire in the next 10 years, become a mentee of his and start talking to him about, hey, would you be interested in potentially letting somebody like me buy this business as you transition out? And I think that could happen all around the country. And in fact, I think it already is happening. And I think we got three to. Three to five to 10 years of this before maybe 20 years at the high end before buying a business is as commoditized and normalized as buying real estate.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's interesting. I. Yeah, I would not be surprised if that happens on the lower end of that timescale.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

As AI starts to match people up and because I know was it in Japan that somebody's already made $1 billion business just off of linking.

[Cody Sanchez]

Like Sakshuma, I can't remember his full name, but yes, it's exact. It's a glorified business. Brokerage.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's all it is. And like we're trying to build some stuff around that in the same vein here, so we'll see if we're able to accomplish it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Interesting.

[Cody Sanchez]

But that like, my mission, my acquisitions used to be laundromats and car washes. And now that I've sort of seen The Matrix. And with our giant ecosystem, like, we should own the entire satellite ecosystem to SMB acquisition.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Interesting. That would be amazing. I mean, that's certainly smart in terms of broadening out, which speaks to a quote, one of your mentors friends, somebody said, hey, do you think doing all the small stuff is making you think too small?

[Cody Sanchez]

Tell me about that Bill Perkins. You know him? Die to zero.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I know of him. I don't know personally.

[Cody Sanchez]

You would like him. He's also hardo. Yeah, he. We're walking. So Bill reached out to me. We invest in a company together, a company called SkyFi. Really cool company. And so I met him, I was on a little panel, and I think I was given my song and dance. And afterwards he came up to me and he's like, lovely to meet you. I want to talk to you again later. Okay, cool. Didn't know anything about him. So I went home and read his book and read more about him. It's like, interesting, dude. So we exchanged contact information and he invited me out to his house in Austin, which is this beautiful compound. And I remember, first of all, I was late and seems to be a trend of mine. And I was panicked. I like to be late and panic about being late.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, it's a nice place to start.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's great. So how I like to start off conversations. And so. So anyway, so I'm panicked. We get there. I'm like, bill, I'm so sorry, you know, we'll cut the meeting short. Like, I'll be in and out. And he's like, take it easy. He's like, I'm here for you. I'm here for this. And I was like, still, I know you got a busy day. And he's like, you're the day. And I'm like, why? And he's like, well, talk to me about what you're doing. So I tell him about, you know, we're buying this, we're doing this, we're building this. And he's like, it's really interesting. He's like, I think you have a generational wealth opportunity here. And I was like, me too. You know, we're trying to figure it out. And I tell him my plans. And he looks at me about halfway through and goes, can I just stop you for a second? I'm like, sure, of course. And he's like, do you think you have been investing in small business for so long, small has infected your thinking? I was like, I don't know.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What do you mean?

[Cody Sanchez]

And he sort of. He gave me the advice that I didn't know that I needed, which was, man, Cody, you're thinking like a millionaire. Somebody that has that many zeros would think, and here's what it looks like to think like a billionaire. And I didn't know I needed that push. But it was another example of I don't really know how to learn, except I get around other people who have more than I do, and I just see how they think. And then it opens up this whole aperture. It's like almost before, like, these cameras over here, you know, they start out really tiny in me for money. And then the more people I can see, when I see what you guys have and what you all have built, I'm like, oh, wait, there's another level to this game. I kind of thought I was doing it. And that stuck with me and still does. He texts me all the time, too. He's like, how we doing? And, you know, he's just like, my little stress. My little stress text every once in a while.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's cool. Lisa and I say the same thing. There's levels to this shit. Yeah, we. It was so funny. The. The world or the universe has a way of. Of letting you know where you're really at. So we bought this, and I'm not joking. Like, three days later, we get invited to P. Diddy's 50th birthday party.

[Cody Sanchez]

First of all, that's cool, right? Was he cool?

[Tom Bilyeu]

We didn't get to spend any time with him because we were invited by somebody that I think, yeah, she worked with him at the time. Amazing lady. She's been on Lisa's show a couple times. And so we go, and he has a 22, I think, million dollar piece of art hanging in, like, the foyer. And I was like, okay. Like, I know where I'm at. Just when I thought I was the man, I'm like, jesus Christ.

[Cody Sanchez]

Three days later.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's incredible. This is hilarious. So, yeah, I was like, that's why you have to be so careful about what money is and what money isn't, because there is always somebody. Like, when I think about the gap in wealth between me and Elon Musk, it's actually hysterical.

[Cody Sanchez]

Hysterical.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like, it. For him, my. My entire net worth is a rounding error. It's like, it's just too funny. So. But it's good. It keeps you from taking this kind of stuff too seriously.

[Cody Sanchez]

Dude, it's so good. Well, especially, I think, at our, like, at a certain level, after you've. Well, I was actually talking to Andrew Wilkinson about This, I don't know if you know him. Anyway, he's, he's a cool guy. He runs a company called Tiny Capital. It's actually a really smart thesis. He buys venture companies. So old venture companies that raised too much capital are never going to read reach expectations for pennies on the dollar. So he bought like Girl boss from Sophia Amorosa. Yes. And they had raised a bunch of venture funding. The company was never going to be a venture scale business. So he recapitalized the whole business. Basically told all the investors like you're going to get pennies on the dollars for this, but you'll get something and you'll exit. And so he's had a really successful history of doing that. Smart dude and Canadians. So very nice. And anyway, so he and I were talking and we were like, you know, I think there was that study that said there's no additional happiness found after a hundred thousand dollars made. And I didn't believe that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

A hundred thousand?

[Cody Sanchez]

A hundred thousand. That's what the.

[Tom Bilyeu]

A hundred thousand dollars.

[Cody Sanchez]

We can source this. So that was, you know, everybody quoted it all over the Internet after a hundred thousand dollars, no happiness made. Then somebody went and re like replicated the study and basically found all these, all these errors in the study and was like, it's actually, it might even have been $70,000. 70 to $100,000?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, I think the original was 72, 000.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, there you go. Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I remember thinking, I didn't believe it either. No.

[Cody Sanchez]

Right. And so then they redid it and it was like what $250,000 or something like that?

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't know. I never heard about the redo.

[Cody Sanchez]

There's a redo. And so I went through and was thinking about this and I was like, huh, Definitely I was happier after I made 100k. I think I was happier at about 250k. But I actually think like material happiness for me at least after 500k I was like hard for me now a house and nice vacations. Like I'm not really into a closed cars types of things but after 500k, if you take out the fact that you can buy nicer houses and you can go on a little bit nicer vacations, but I don't even really want to take that expensive of vacations. So let's maybe just say even a house, like not that much material change in happiness. And what I thought was interesting then is then it stops, at least for me, becoming about money. It's like probably with 500k, I could live per year.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Can I pitch you on something?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, tell me.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay, so first of all, you and I agree on the exact number.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So my team has asked me, when did you feel rich?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I said, you'll feel rich when you make $500,000 a year.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't know what it is about that break point, but that's the first time you're like, if you didn't grow up with money. So for me, I did not. So When I hit 500,000, I was like, oh, word, I'm rich. And that was awesome.

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[Tom Bilyeu]

Now, I will say that your. Your early thesis that money is power is so right that there's basically no time where you won't think, I wish I was a little more powerful. 100 so. And when. Pete, this makes me mad. We all have a thing where we redline. You said one of yours earlier. I forget what it was. But my red line is where people are like, how could you even spend all that money?

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What? Like I could. I'm not kidding. I could spend $100 million on a long weekend. Intelligently.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Buy a business.

[Cody Sanchez]

Well, I was going to say, do

[Tom Bilyeu]

you know how easy it would be?

[Cody Sanchez]

Wait, though. You could do it if you couldn't spend it on business things.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay. Do you know how much a video game costs? A triple A game. Do you know how much Grand Theft Auto 6 is? The one that's about to come out. You know how much it cost?

[Cody Sanchez]

No. To make, Right?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

No. But if you can't spend it on

[Tom Bilyeu]

business, it can't be any business.

[Cody Sanchez]

Can't be anything related to personal.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I could. I mean. Yeah. So private travel alone is ungodly expensive and amazing. I never do it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Because every time it's like I. I just. Everything becomes an employee to me.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So I'm like wait for a round trip ticket on a private plane first. Any even like to go to Miami and back. It's going to be like 500 grand. Yeah, sorry, 100 grand. I'm like 10K an hour.

[Cody Sanchez]

Right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

For a hundred thousand dollars. That's an employee. That's a good employee. And I get to work with them all year. I meaningful relationship. We might build more. So I just can't do it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But yeah, I could spend. I could spend a lot of money with. And I'm not a. I mean, look, I have a fancy house, I'll be the first to admit, but I'm not like an extravagant guy. If you saw my car, it's from 2012. It was a little fancy in 2012. I've had a rat's nest, literal rat's nest in the engine twice. So yeah, I'm not. I don't have any fancy watches. My shoes cost $40. Like I'm not that guy. So. But even then, like there are. So you're taking away my one thing.

[Cody Sanchez]

I know that's the thing. Because that's mine too.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

I could spend.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It has to facilitate hundreds of millions

[Cody Sanchez]

of dollars on business.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Will you. If I said that I was going to create charter schools.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Does that count as business?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Okay.

[Cody Sanchez]

It would have to research. Yeah, I think that. All right.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Once you take all that, if I just have to piss it away and it's like Brewster's Millions.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Then that's such an old reference. Then yeah, I'm not going to be able to do. Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

But. But I do think that is a red line for me. How could you spend all this money in the idea that. I think when people say that what they're saying is rich people, you don't need your money and so let us help you.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And yeah, you're a flawed person for pursuing this gross thing called money.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I just think is ridiculous because what's the alternative? You put it in the hands of the people who have never earned a dime and don't actually know how to distribute it at all because they're politicians.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So here is. Let's play devil's advocate. So the. One of the problems with money is minus irresponsible money printing, which is rampant. So I get why people don't think of it this way, but money is a zero sum game if you don't print more. So let's talk about Bitcoin for a second. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. Not in a bad way. I want people to understand that's what makes it good. Yeah, it's called hard money. We're going to derail anyway. When there's a finite amount of something, somebody really can win it all. And now you're in a hard spot. So people see, because they don't understand net worth versus money in your bank, which is the big problem. No matter how many times I say it, people still don't get it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yep.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But they think, oh, wait, there's only whatever $2 trillion that exists. It's not true at all, but whatever. They have a number in their head and they're like, Elon Musk has 160 billion. Like, where's, where's the rest of it? And they think somebody else is poor because he has that money. Because they don't understand how economics work. Now look, neither do I. Economics is insanely complicated, but I understand it well enough to know that's not accurate. But yeah, people do not understand money and it creates all kinds of weird beliefs. Those weird beliefs keep them poor.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I think you're right. Well, I think you need to understand at a base level the difference between money and wealth. And so, you know, for instance, you can create, there's zero sum games would be like hedge fund trading or stock market trading. I categorically, I'm going to sell a stock because I think it's going down. And I hope it does because otherwise I'll be kind of pissed if I sold it at that level. Right. And in order for me to win, somebody else has to lose because you had to buy it at a point where it's going down. Right. Zero sum game, stocks. That's, I think, what people think of when they think of money. When I think about wealth though, I think about, I have a house and the house is a shack. It's just almost a tear down. But I work to rebuild that house. And the house that I rebuild then becomes worth more than it was before. Was anybody harmed or was any cash taken away from anybody in the creation of that house? Absolutely not. That's the difference between wealth and money. And so I think people get confused with money. Like in order for my business to sell more, I have to take money away from Tom's business. That's what they think about. But they don't realize there's this whole. There's this whole bucket over here that is just. No, there is entropy. That happens continuously in the world around us. And wealth is just the manipulation of entropy to be creation instead or betterment instead. It's probably a better word there, but at least that's how I think about it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, I think thinking about it as a zero sum game is a wrong way to think about it. You want to be thinking about, I've created something of value that people would. They want that thing more than they want their money. And some people are just better at bringing that kind of value to people. So Jeff Bezos is such a great example. And I'm so sad that people think negatively of him. Like, he gave us the era where you can want something and like eight hours later have it like it's bananas. And so I am so grateful for that. And because I'm old enough to realize that's like a modern miracle. Did not used to be that way. You used to have to wait six weeks. Six weeks. That's not me being hyperbolic. If you wanted to get something in the mail and the fact that they can get it to you the same day in some cases is truly a modern miracle. It's unbelievable. He's driven the cost of goods down, he's negotiated on our behalf. I've been a product of maker and seller who's hated him for how they negotiate with people that create products. But as a consumer, it's awesome. So, yeah, I don't. I grew up in the 80s, so for me, it was like you wanted to strive to be more and to make money and to get rich. And so I used to tell anybody who would listen when I was a kid, I'm going to be rich. I'm going to be rich. I'm going to be rich.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Now, I had no idea what it was going to take, but because I believed it was possible, I just kept running forward. Oftentimes falling on my face, but I just kept running forward. It's one of those, like, it's very cheesy and I don't believe in manifesting at all. But if you believe you can, you will act in accordance with that. If you believe you can't, you will act in accordance with that. So it's not. You're not convincing the universe to give you something. You're just doing the thing you needed to do to actually make that come true. Which, spoiler alert is going and acquiring skills.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's so true. Yeah. Dan Sullivan. Sullivan from Strategic Coach said something cool that I really liked. I realized that not a lot. Like, if you're the type of person that feels you need motivation, you need inspiration, you can't get through your day. Like hearing all the tactical stuff is really difficult for you to then get motivated to do the right thing. Dan Sullivan. Dan Sullivan has this incredible framework that was so simple for me that I really liked at a time when I didn't want to work that hard. And it was basically he said something like, every single day I want you at the end of the day to write down your 3 wins, 3 wins at all that you had from the day. And then I want you to write down three wins that you will have tomorrow. And not like a big, the type of win you and I would write like, I'm going to close a million dollars tomorrow, but like an achievable win that you know you are probably going to hit tomorrow. And then I want you to do that every single day for 30 days. And what I thought was interesting about that is because we are so often in the, you know, the gap of like, I haven't achieved this, I haven't done this. This other person is doing this. I'm enough. That immediately puts you in what he calls the gain, which is no. Here are these three things that I already did. I'm already a winner. Because sometimes you need proof that you are on the right path forward. And I find this with working out. For instance, I'm not. I'm so business motivated that I just will work non stop. And for me to want to get to like the six pack level of working out is hard. Actually. I'll always stay healthy and fit. But to get to that next level of fit, I have to put in some work. You know, you don't get a six pack by accident.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Are you gonna do it?

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah, I'm gonna go all the way. I'm gonna go all the way. I know, but in order.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's hard for guys, it's even harder for women. You're gonna have to want that.

[Cody Sanchez]

I know. Well. And in order to do it, I have to put, I have to say, what am I willing to sacrifice?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yep.

[Cody Sanchez]

I have to put some money on the table because otherwise I won't do it. I need interesting. I need to find somebody who has already done it, who I can steal their 10,000 hours. I have to track it and I have to make movement on it every single day. And then what I realized is I was like, oh God, I'm kind of Weak. I'm kind of weak minded in this workout thing because my why isn't big enough or I don't know what. And so the three wins each day started to help me because I was feeling like I'm like tracking. There's 47 things I'm tracking and it's just more stuff to do and I couldn't get motivated. And so I think even for people like me at least, and I don't know about you, there are things that I still have to trick my mind into doing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Oh, you mean everything?

[Cody Sanchez]

Not everything.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I have to trick myself into so many things.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I just have rules and procedures and like ways to build desire and how to focus. It's. Yeah. Left to my own devices, I am extraordinarily lazy. I am not driven at all. It's. It's really bad. I had to overcome a lot and it was only shame that allowed me to get going in the first place. I had big dreams, but I. I was what I called an empty dreamer. So I had big dreams, but I was not doing anything to actually make them come true. And I then managed to convince this young Greek girl from England that I was actually going to do these things and told her father that I was going to make his daughter rich one day. And he didn't believe me. And then I realized, whoa, I'm not doing any of the things I would need to do to actually make that come true. And I remember thinking this was the exact thing I thought, I now have a witness to my crimes.

[Cody Sanchez]

Wow.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so when I lay in bed, there's a witness, there's somebody else whose life now is worse because I'm laying in bed. And that really made me feel badly about myself. And it ended up being the greatest thing of all time because that got me up and it got me going. And once I realized, oh, this is what's been missing this whole time. I have to take the steps, I have to do the thing. And now I'm getting better and better and better, but I have to just keep pushing myself. And once I realized, oh my God, like the human is the ultimate adaptation machine, machine. But I have to put myself in an, in an adapt or die situation, push myself to learn, to make use of it, to stay curious, which I've heard you talk about. And if I do that, oh my God. On a long enough timeline. And I became obsessed with this idea. On a long enough timeline, I can beat anyone at anything because life is a game of attrition and most people will quit. And I Won't.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's absolutely true.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And just looping around that, that, that another thing that I say, which I hope this will give people listening to this particular episode some solace. I can be laughed at longer than the average person. That's my superpower. Like, I'm not afraid to look dumb ever. And I'm not afraid that I will make mistakes and I legitimately will embarrass myself and it will actually hurt my credibility. And I'll have been here on social media screaming from the rooftops what I'm doing, and something's not going to go well, well, and people are going to point and they're going to laugh and it's going to hurt. And in that moment, it's either crumble or just keep going internally. Laughing, knowing on a long enough timeline I'm going to beat all of the people laughing at me because I just don't stop.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, that's so good. You know, I'm, I'm toying around with this idea right now that now I've heard you say it and two other people I know that are really successful. And I feel the same, which is. Then I also think there is a superpower in a partner. And in this day and age, there's a lot of people who are alone, who want to swipe left and right non stop and who are looking for an ideal before bettering themselves. And, man, every time I feel like there's difficulty in my life, extreme difficulty, having a partner that I know can weather the storm with me is an absolute game changer. And I have a feeling that, you know, I don't know, let's check in again when we're all 80 and see where we're at. But I have a feeling that that second hand, second set of hands is something that's missing in a lot of this generation. Like, they feel isolated, they feel alone, they feel like there's nobody that has their back. And that might be because they need to choose a partner. And I never used to think that, but I was in a bad partnership before, and there's also nothing worse than that. And so now having somebody where when something's going wrong, I do, I think about what would Chris think about my actions in this instance? Like, is this how we want to represent ourselves as a family? And those are really powerful feelings to have. And I don't hear enough people talking about them. Them. You know, you couldn't, you couldn't pay me enough money to like have an affair on the side. I'm like, are you Kidding me. I barely got time for this guy. You think I might have another one? Like, no way. And then on top of that, the type of human that I strive to be does not suffer that. And so, you know, I think it's interesting, like, sort of what we're having in the world happen around us and how little we care about partnerships. And maybe there's a superpower there for the people who choose. And I'm not saying. I mean, who knows? We will be. Chris and I always laugh that we're not interested in, like, mental or physical polyamory, but maybe, you know, check in again in 30 years, you know.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And how long have you guys been married?

[Cody Sanchez]

We've been married three years and together for six and known each other for 25.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's right. You guys went to high school together.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

That's bananas.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. How long have you guys been married?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Been married 21 years. Yeah, it's dope. It. So here's the punchline for anybody that's wondering. No amount of success, no amount of money can possibly touch the rewards of a successful romantic partnership. Nothing. It. It is the greatest joy life has to offer you. Now I don't have kids even after 21 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. More now than ever.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Now you have to know how to navigate it. And it is. It is not the simplest thing, but it is the most rewarding. Like, it's unbelievable. And there was a great quote. I don't remember who said it, but the people who take the biggest risks have the strongest home life.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, God.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And I remember going home to Lisa and being like, oh, my God, that is so true. Because the number of times that both of us have thought, you know, we're doing this thing, it's hugely risky. This could really all fail. And because success, there is no finish line. So despite all my success, I don't feel like, oh, I've made it. I'm on the other side of some magical line, and I can never go back back. I'm always like, oh, you're only a small series of bad choices away from being broke. And so, yeah, it. That feeling, at least for me, has never gone away. And I always think, well, if it goes away, will I still have Lisa? Because if I still have Lisa, I'm good. I won't be happy. Like, that will be traumatic, don't get me wrong. But losing Lisa's. Losing Lisa and brain damage, those are the only two things that legitimately scare me. Everything else, I'm like, ah, it wouldn't be fun. But I'll be fine. On the other side of it. Losing Lisa would be like. The effect in my life would be the same as if the sun just ceased to exist. And I don't mean in a romantic, like, you are my sunshine. I mean, you're the gravitational center of my life, and I will fly off into the ether without you. Like, because I've been with her since I was in my early 20s, so I legitimately don't know who I would be. Like, I don't know who I would have developed into.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Had I not been married to her. So. Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's incredible. Well, what's interesting, too, is, like, you know, I have a little peek back here because I was up there chatting with her, and we all have friends, like, you know, Vanessa, that's been friends with her for a long time. And so, you know, we meet a lot of people online, but you can tell, like, when I was up there with you, I was like, oh, yeah, I was just down with your wife. That was incredible. You were, like, lucky. What were you guys talking about? You were, you know, it was genuine, which is rare, especially where we are right now. Like, what you guys are surrounded by.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. It's interesting. This is just, like, business, though. So you go, okay, there's physics to this situation.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This thing works in a certain way. And can I figure out how this thing works? And if you can figure out how the thing works, then you can navigate it. Well, like, okay, there are what they call the four horsemen of the apocalypse in a relationship, and the most common one is contempt.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so we were just like, okay, well, then we know avoiding contempt is, like, one of the most important things that we can do in our relationship. And so I won't derail this conversation on that. But there are, like, things that you can do, and they're just, like, daily habits that you make sure that you're constantly keeping the. You know, the marriage tuned up. You understand what you're each good at. So she's far more likely to feel disconnected than I am. So we never wait for me to feel disconnected. If she says I'm feeling disconnected, then. Then I stop working and I go spend time with her, and we just don't violate that. And so it's like, yeah, cool, because this is, you know, going back to something. I've heard you talk a lot about values. You have to know what your values are. And I'm just fearless when it comes to prioritizing. So my wife is my number one priority. My business is my second and my family's my third now that my family doesn't love that. They don't love that they're in third place. But I'm just being honest.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So. But Lisa really is my number one and we act accordingly. Now that doesn't mean that she gets as much of my time as the business, but it does mean when the two collide and she says, hey, I need time. Okay, cool.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm just not conflicted.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's interesting too. We. We kind of practice this thing kind of like you talked about with like realizing how little we actually need. Like when we go on vacations, for instance, we'll usually start at like, not a very nice hotel.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well.

[Cody Sanchez]

And then we'll end up in like a sick one, you know, so it's like, like a. You know, something. Maybe we'll go camping the first night or something.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You're doing that on purpose.

[Cody Sanchez]

We didn't do it on purpose originally. We did it because he likes to go camping and I don't like to go camping. So I want to go to the Amangiri and he wants to go camping. And so we add what I want and we start where he wants. And then after a while, it became kind of a fun game because it was like, we have an incredible. Now it sucks if you flip it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. If you start, you never end on the cold shower. No, you never start on the cold shower.

[Cody Sanchez]

Exactly. But. But it's kind of a fun thing just to realize to your point, if those north stars about what really matter, then you can cut out all the stuff that is the reason why most people don't make change in their life. I mean, when you have nothing and you have nothing to lose, that is the best time to take massive risk. The worst part about as you get better and bigger and more successful is you carry a lot of weight. Right. And so those are the golden handcuffs that people talk about. And usually that's what stops you from taking risk. And I saw it again and again and again in corporate finance. And people would be stuck in these jobs he's hated for fucking decades. And one of the things Chris and I like to practice is like, no, remember how little we need. As long as it's like the two of us, we can camp still. Maybe we can't go to the Hungary, but we can survive and actually be really, really happy. Would it be traumatic? Yes. But we can go back to that place where we can continue to take risk. Because for sure. I mean, it'd be a lot safer for Both of us to not spend. I'm sure the amount of money we're spending building these businesses and just keep, keep, keep the cash. You know, there are plenty of people that do that.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Thought a lot about that. As I pour millions of dollars into building a video game that could fail.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm hyper aware of that.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

All right. I want to talk about something that I think makes you uniquely good. Because anybody listening to this, if somewhere in their soul they can feel that you know something still that they don't. You've been entirely candid in this conversation. I don't doubt that for one second. I have a quote in here. I want to see if I can find it.

[Cody Sanchez]

It.

[Tom Bilyeu]

There's actually a couple. So I'm going to read a couple quotes from you that I think speak to this thing. So money is the financial Trojan horse I use to get people to start thinking critically. And that idea of critical thinking is the thing I think that really makes you special, that you understand that clear thinking is more important than just about anything else. And just hearing you teach, you're very good at, like, okay, this is the plan that we said we were going to stick to. We stick to this plan. When we deviate, things go wrong, and you're just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, down. I think that that's very important. Here's another one. Everyone wants the hack. Be the person who wants the work. That's. That's money. And. And then one last one that I think is really interesting. Choose being the victor over the victim. Always. And you said that in response to somebody saying, what's it like to be a woman in business? And I was like, the, the. The Brits used to do that, like, fingersnap thing. I was just like, that's so on point. Like, look, it is. Things are gonna be harder. Whatever your problem is. Yes, 100% gonna be more difficult. It could be your skin color, it could be your gender. It could be your height. It could be whatever the way you were raised, the fact that you don't know anybody, blah, blah, blah. But if you take that excuse, which is incredibly valid, you won't get anywhere. And so you don't do any of that. Okay? So get that in people's heads. There really is something special about the way you approach the world. But there's also. I want to know, what is it that makes you good? Because you have to convince business owners to sell to you. How do you do that? That.

[Cody Sanchez]

Well, on that last point one, really quickly, nobody wants to see Goliath win. So everything that you think makes you a victim is what will make your story infinitely better when you win. And the only reason we remember David through history is because it was a small man with a slingshot up against a giant that was sure to beat him. And I don't know when in today's world we decided that having difficulties put in front of you meant that you were meant for less. That is such a false narrative. So I just don't ascribe to it. I am very aggressive when people ask me to come speak at like, hey, you know, we want a woman CEO to come to an event. I'm like, okay, I don't know. And, and I just, I say no. I go, I'm not sure what my vagina has to do with it. Which really also makes people uncomfortable, which makes me chuckle. You know, I just happen to be born with that. I don't know. And I think it's totally unrelated to running a business. So what are we talking about here? And, and I think if more people felt like that, then it would just be zeroed out and you'd realize, man, what an advantage. Like, I hope they don't find out that I'm the only long haired Latina woman at Goldman Sachs that doesn't wear a suit. And so how much easier am I to remember than all Brads, Chads, Toms and Larry's? Like, a lot easier. And so I think it's, you're doing yourself a huge service if you choose to label yourself as a victim. And the moment that you realize that is the moment your life will change. And as far as, like, how do I get business owners to convince, how can I convince business owners to sell to me? Goes back to asking the right questions. I think in life, if I could leave one thing, one of our taglines is question everything, including me, maybe especially me, but question everything. And with business owners, what's fascinating, what's annoying to them is young people coming to them and saying, hey, you know, I want to buy your business. Oh my God, you're doing this and this. And here's what we should do differently. We're going to put it on slack and we're going to API into this. This, it's none of that. You never go to a business owner and you say, here's all the things that I want to do to this poor tragic thing that you've put together and let me lead it from the future. Instead you come with a lot of empathy, like a journalist and you say, if, if you were a local auto mechanic? Owner. I would go something like this. I'd go, curiosity, empathy, pain pushing, solution giving. So I'd first go, hey, Tom. Incredible. You've built this place. This is your place. Oh, that's so cool. How long you been running it? A couple years. That's awesome. Who's. Who's your number two? Who's taken over next? Oh, nobody yet. Okay, cool. Like, how many people you get in here? Man? This is crazy company. Curious, right? I'm just starting to get to know you. I'm not telling you anything about me. I'm just being a human engaged with you because that's rare. Then two. Empathy. Wow. You started this 20 years ago from nothing. Are you kidding? And you built this up to what? My God, how many employees do you have today? Like, I'm feeling it with you, right Then once I understand a little bit about your business and I show that I'm empathetic with you, I start to push on the pain. Oh, man, 20 years. That's a long time. Like, sometimes 20 years is enough, you know? And you're like, yeah, it feels like that on some Tuesdays. I'm like, me too. I used to run this business. You know, the employees are the tough part, right? Yeah, man. Looking for a new manager. You know, I'd really like to retire. And you start to push on the pain buttons now you can't create pain, so you're really only looking for the person that already wants to sell. They just might not know it or they might not want to tell you.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Right.

[Cody Sanchez]

And I want to push on the things that could be painful for them so that they realize that I'm here to give them a solution. And then the last thing that we're going to do is solution solving. So then we're going to say, huh, that's incredible. Like, you built this huge business, you know, you're kind of ready to go on your next adventure. There's some stuff that's like, a little bit overwhelming in this business. Interesting. Gosh. You know, I. I don't know if I told you this, but, like, I do buy businesses now. I've never bought a mechanic business locate locally here, but, like, I live down the way and actually, like, I know so and so that owns this business up along here too. I buy businesses that kind of sound like they might be in your wheelhouse now. I have no idea if we would be, like, a match for each other at all, but if you're open to it, maybe I could just take a look at what you guys do overall. And we could see if at the right price and the right terms, there might be something here for us. Maybe it's months down the road, maybe it's years, but regardless, you'd at least have a valuation for what your business might be worth if you want to sell. I don't know if that might be interesting to you. And usually at that point they go something like, huh, I don't like, explain to me what would that look like? And that moment, what would that look like? Explain that to me is the open door. And that's when you start to figure out, is there a dance here? And then one thing that I make sure that I do is no matter how that engagement goes, I make sure that engagement is a win for them. Them every time. So if that business is awful and I would never want something to do with it, I'd put together a little something for them. I'd be like, okay, so here's how businesses are bought. You know, here's the valuation. Here's like a little industry report on your business. If you ever wanted to sell this one. Your business is a little too small for what I typically buy, but I actually could maybe make some intros to some other people if you are seriously thinking about it. Or we could like touch base in a few months. I'm happy to be a resource for you. I want them to feel good about it. Everybody time. Because what happens, business owners all talk to other business owners because we're all getting punched in the face together. And so they might not be your seller, but the next guy might be your seller or gal. And so that's the, that's the way it goes. You just start with curiosity, empathy, pain pushing, solution solving. And you do it again and again, again until you find your sil Cinderella shoe.

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[Tom Bilyeu]

And how do you go about like, what's the ratio of number of pitches to deals close? Like, I know in real estate that's a big thing. You have to have bird dogs that are out there. Like, how do you get the deal flow?

[Cody Sanchez]

So I don't do it. I've never been a cold Callie Mass volume type of gal. I hate that game. I'm much more a I connect with humans one on one and I get to know them and usually they'll either take me somewhere is in the form of referral or something with them. So if I was to do this I do something called a personal P and L review basically means, I mean you could do the same thing probably have but you look at all the things you spend money on both personally in your business and it's really easy for business owners. If there's any business owners listening, you should pay attention in your business. You spend money on, I don't know, ads. You might have a vendor that does ads for you. You might have a vendor that does events for you. You might have a vendor that does studio set up and take down everything that is a liability or cost me money on a monthly basis or an annual I note and then I look for three things I look for can I get to the owner of the business AKA Jeff Bezos, probably not going to sell to me. Also couldn't afford it. Is the business interesting to me that I might actually want to own it? Like I probably don't want to own an accounting business for instance for liability reasons, but I might want to own an ad agency or at least part of it. And then the third aspect of it is is this a business owner that is aligned with my target demographic of a seller. So, so if I want to buy the business outright, it needs to be an owner that wants to sell, not a growth minded owner. Like you're not looking for a young gun that's cruising right now. You're looking for somebody who's probably a little bit older and ready to exit. And on the other hand, if you just want a part of the business, especially like you Tom Bilyeu, if you're like huh, like I actually want a young owner because I just want to own 30% of that business for the cash flow and I want a young gun that's going to grow it. But if I mentioned my vendors for this on my podcast once, I'm going to 5x this business. So why don't you give me 30% of the company for the upside that I'm going to give and we're basically just going to wipe out one of the costs on my bottom line. And so and usually you can, you can do those type of deals like revenue share, profit shares, what equity deals with, you know, one of three things. You either Bring them more revenue or profits. So increase revenue revenue. You can decrease costs. So help them cut centers of costs in the business. Or you can operationalize the business. You could take away pain from the owner. Like, oh man, you know, you don't have any systems in here. What about, you know, putting SOPs? What if we put EOs over your business? Business owners usually feel pain when they're not operationally aligned, when they have too many costs, or when they're not bringing in enough cash. And so for any of those three things, you could buy a business for theoretically $0.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Makes a lot of sense. You talked about money, Sweat equity does. Money and sweat equity, do they match out or is one more valuable than the other?

[Cody Sanchez]

Well, I talk about the get rich tripod, which is basically this. You have no excuse to not buy a business. If you say I don't have money, it's not an excuse. If you say I don't have time, that's not an excuse. If you say I don't have experience, that's not an excuse. Now might be a reason why not to, because you don't want to. That's cool. But any of those three things shouldn't stop you. And here's the reason why. Buying a business is like a tripod. So you have three legs to the stand. Money is your highest leverage leg, right? Because it's not finite like time is. So if you have money, you always want to put money into a deal because Tom's time is actually worth way more than your dollars. And so for most people who have money, it's much more expensive to get an hour of Jeff Bezos's time than a hundred thousand dollars from Jeff Bezos. One's not equally weight, right? So I always try to use money if I can first in a deal because I don't want my time involved unless I have experience, which allows me to be a better deal maker. Then I don't even have to use money because. And I don't have to use my time because I really have experience that this company wants or I have experience at deal structuring. So let's say, for instance, I'm an accountant. I have a friend who has cash. I have another friend who has time. Like they want to operate a business. And I have the experience of running an accounting firm before or being an accountant. I might be able to get access to a deal for $0 because I just have knowledge that they don't. I could consult on it. I could be a part of the business in some way. But My experience could be an option. And then the third is if you don't have experience and you don't have money, you have time. That's pure sweat equity. So this is basically what venture capital does. Like venture capitalists say I have billions of dollars. You go take the pain of face kicking on a startup, I will give you capital and you will pay me a return based on my capital at some point. Point paired with your time. And, and so that's what you can do if you have neither of the two. So there are people every day that I hire and get equity in my businesses because they operate them. There are people every day that I hire and get an equity in my businesses because they have experience. And then right now I'm the only money in my businesses. But theoretically, if people build funds like Ray Dalios, he just uses other people's money.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Right? Okay. People have gone on this crazy journey with us. Us. They really are edging towards sovereignty.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Owning their own life, being able to control themselves. Why does that matter? What's that? I hear you talk. I almost never hear people use the word sovereignty, but you talk about it a lot.

[Cody Sanchez]

I really should use more like, you know, 25 cent words.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I think, I think sovereignty is the right word.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's just irreplaceable. You know, sovereignty in my mind is the ability to be a self providing island in a world of humans that need connection in order to survive. And I think money is one of the fastest ways to get to sovereignty because it allows you to build resources, power tools and time, basically. And so, you know, one of the reasons that I'm obsessed with this mission of skin in the game and people becoming owners is because I think that we are giving away our sovereignty. And we really saw it over the last couple of years. In many instances I was like you, I believed in no conspiracy theories. I kind of thought they were all crazy. And this is not political. I think both the left and right are nuts. But what I realized is very few humans had decision making power because they didn't have enough cash to sustain themselves, to make difficult decisions one way or the other. And they didn't have enough cash to have the willpower to say something one way or the other other. And I just saw it. I saw it for the first time ever. And I realized the people who were actually sovereign were those who had built up assets which really like form the modern day sword and shield. And so that's why I'm obsessed with financial freedom, because I think you need to be healthy, which is really important to your mission. Bank account doesn't really matter if you don't have your health. And you need to be able to think critically in order to make the right decisions at the right time for yourself. But even if you're healthy, healthy, and you can think critically, but you don't have assets in this world, I think you're in trouble because people will push upon your sovereignty continuously, and your only pushback is zeros. And I think it's the only international language that everybody speaks in this day and age. Now, maybe it won't always be that way, but I do believe that it is that way today.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, I'm gonna guess that it's always going to be that way. I don't see a way around it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Um, so given the importance of being able to think critically, given the fact that you. You have named your company about not conforming to anybody else's way of thought.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do you have a method for thinking critically?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, I mean, the only method that I have is to. To follow the greats. Like, we just launched this Instagram account actually today. And the reason why is because.

[Tom Bilyeu]

What's the account?

[Cody Sanchez]

It's called Contrarian Thinking. We're really in it. Original around here. You know, also, I'm terrible at naming companies. Like, could there be more vowels in that company? Company. I can barely spell contrarian. Anyway, the. The. We launched this account because I did money first, like the Trojan horse, like we were talking about. Because I started in 2020 talking about contrarian thinking. Like, let's think for ourselves. Let's look at these problems happening in the world today. What's going on? Like, can we. Can we have debates about this? Let's let the ideas compete. And basically people are like, I think, great, what's going on up here? It's awesome. Awesome. And I'm right about most things because people don't really want to question their own thinking. We want to question everybody else's. And we never want to go, huh, idea in my head. Do I actually believe you? Cognitive dissonance is hard. And so we started with money. We got a lot of people hyped about money, and now I realize it's shallow. And we want to make sure we go deep, too. And I think the next step is we go to the greats, who are contrarians at huge personal risk to themselves, and kind of have this idea, which I've never really talked about before, but you know how Ryan Holiday did really, really normalize stoicism, this method of thinking that, like, basically Was can you be sort of the. The calm in the storm despite what's going on? And I think contrarian thinking is never going to be stoicism in an ism perspective. But it might not be enough to be a calm and a storm. We might also have to add like a pushback to the wave. And so the idea is we put together some of the top 150 contrarian thinkers who paid prices for ideas that turned out to be true.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Do you have anybody off the top of your head?

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah. I mean, tons of them. I have like, you know, you have Aristotle, you have Plato, you have Marie Curie, you have Confucius, you have. Oh, my gosh, the world is not flat, it is round. Galileo, was that Galileo? I can't remember. Oh, my gosh.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I'm pretty sure Galileo was the one that got. Can we. Let's look it up. Is it Galileo?

[Cody Sanchez]

Okay, we'll find out. Tell us how smart we are or not, how cultured. And so, so we put together this list. And then there's like Christopher Hitchens, who's a perf. Like a personal favorite of mine, Letters to Young Contrarians. He's fascinating to me because he changed his mind like four times on life altering, altering decisions. He was a communist, really atheist, and then by the end of his life, he was a capitalist Christian.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Really. I don't know his story well, yeah,

[Cody Sanchez]

it's actually a fascinating story. Letters to Young Contrarian is an interesting book to read, a fast one. But I also like going through and reading some of his quotes because they really punch you in the gut. And so I like humans. He obviously questioned his own thinking multiple times. And towards the end of his life, he had to go back and say half the things that he thought were true. Turns out they're not backed by facts. Thomas Sowell is another contrarian thinker, basically eradicated from the history of the great economist because his ideas were not politically correct.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah, he's amazing, though. He's amazing.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. And so that is the only way that I know to get better is like, can I go to people who have had these ideas before? And then can I try to backtrack the way that they think? Do you know Churchill much besides reading his biography? But I think he would be another good one.

[Tom Bilyeu]

He's hyper contrarian. Yeah, yeah, hyper contrarian. That's one of the things I find so interesting is man, talk about somebody who paid a price for his opinions and he just could not help himself. Like, pathologically, he said, I'm always going to say what I think is true, no matter what the price is. That's impressive. And then he did it and ends up still becoming Prime Minister. But there were times where he for sure thought, I'm done in politics. I'll never make it now, because I just had to say this thing that I thought was true. And then obviously he's banging on about Hitler from, like, day one. Guys, he's a problem. He's a problem. I'm telling you, like, this guy is going to be a disaster. He's built. He's going for war. I'm telling you, he's going to invade. And everyone's like, oh, Jesus, here is Churchill again. Just would not shut up about this guy. And people were saying, like, I don't know, like, Hitler seems like a nice enough guy, and he's like, what the fuck? Like, this guy's a psychopath. No one would listen. He invades, and obviously the rest is history. But it is very impressive. It is so easy to just nod and smile when it would be very uncomfortable to push back. Back.

[Cody Sanchez]

It's very easy.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I have a lot of admiration for people who don't.

[Cody Sanchez]

You know, what I thought was interesting about Churchill, too, that I didn't know was that he refused to meet. Meet Hitler. Did you read about, like, And. And I. I never thought about that because a lot of times, like, some of the big podcasters today, for instance, will say, you know, who should we have on a podcast one way or the other? And I always have sort of had the mindset of, well, just anybody that you want to curiously talk to them about their ideas. And then I remember reading that story about. About Churchill, how he wouldn't meet with Hitler because he thought that the more you met with a person, the more human you could see in them and it would cloud your thinking about interesting.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Well, the bad news is he did meet with Mussolini. He did meet and for years had a photo of Mussolini, like a signed photo of Mussolini in his house or his office.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, that's good.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And then it was like, oh, whoops. It's like, you know, you put the photo down real quick. Huh.

[Cody Sanchez]

No perfect humans.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. No, I mean, look, you. To be the. When I agree to have a guest on, it's like you do some vetting for sure, but you can only do so much.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Plus. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not weird about platforming people.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

My thing is, do they have something useful?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And if they're saying something crazy, do you push back and say, that's crazy now. No one is going to be perfect. I'm sure there are things that I wish I'd push back on. And the worst part is when somebody clips something out and they say something crazy and you're like, but, but if you look at the greater context, like, that was in the middle of something. And like, by the time he was finished with the thing, it's like, yeah, we'd moved on past that anyway. It is a risk of the job. But yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

Do you bring on people that you know you're going to disagree with?

[Tom Bilyeu]

Like, I do now. I didn't for a very long time. So the show has gone through three very distinct phases and it's only been in phase three where I'm like, I will actively bring somebody on if I think that we can have a good faith conversation about something, something. And then it's like. And I do really weigh a lot. Like, how far do I stray? How far do I ask my audience to go with me on the journey of empowerment? To me, until you are fully sovereign, you are not empowered.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

But phase one, where it was just like, think like this, act like this. People loved it. They celebrated me. I did. Like, they were sort of albums of me, like doing these really inspirational riffs.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

We'd put music to it and it was like, that was a lot of fun. At a great time. And then it just got to the point where I'd be interviewing somebody and I'm like, half of what you're saying is. And so we'd film for an hour and a half and release a 30 minute episode. Because I'm like, so rather than confront them, I'd just be like, well, we're going to cut that out. We're going to cut that out.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Because I like to get along. I don't. You invite someone on your show and then you're going to like, yeah, it's just it. I didn't like it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And then I started to feel like a coward. And so when 2020 kicked off and all hell broke loose. Loose. I felt like a coward. And so I had Jordan Peterson in my ear being like, all it takes for evil to win is for good men to remain silent. So I'm like, oh, God, am I gonna have to start talking about this shit? And so I thought, okay, yep. Don't be a coward. Say what you think. And so I started saying what I thought. And then it became, for a while, our views really went down. And then, then they. Because you have to build the new audience. And then they started going up and we were bigger than ever. And then I changed again and we went down again and now we're bigger than ever again. So it's like the audience keeps rewarding me on a long enough timeline. But yeah, so it is very difficult to try to always see things through that lens to help other people see what I see. I'm not super good at that. So it takes me a lot of time to be able to say simply in a single sentence, like, this is my thesis. This is how these things connect. So I'm working on that now. But. But it's as I said to my team, you either lose me as a host or we figure out a way to expand who we can have on the show because otherwise I just get bored.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. That's one of my biggest fears about talking or about doing a podcast is I think the you get. You lose tolerance for shallow conversation or bullshit, really. And you don't want to be rude because there's like, it's one thing if you're like, oh, no, intellectually, let's debate because there's something interesting there and I disagree and let's go. And there's something else with this is it's not going to be fair or it's just going to be mean.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Right.

[Cody Sanchez]

And so what's the point in going at somebody I've never really liked that it'll get.

[Tom Bilyeu]

So it has gotten more fun for me. And part of it is, okay, now the audience knows that I am going to push back when I disagree in phase one, it would have been so jarring. I remember we actually didn't release an episode. I don't know if I've ever talked to about this before. So the. When I decided, okay, I'm going to start pushing back on people, we had somebody come on the show who's very what I'll call Woo Woo. Oh, yeah, I don't have a Woo Woo bone in my body. And so we started getting into it now. I felt I was being very respectful and I was only saying what I believed and I was leaving space. But like, I disagreed with with his ideas and he disagreed with mine. So we were like going back and forth and it was like getting pretty intense sense you could tell he had never been disagreed with before. He was so used to people being like, yeah, manifestation is real. And I was just like, I don't see how that works. And like, let me lay it out. And so then it got religious. And so I was like, well, so I can Understand your position, which is curiosity. Right. So I'm. I'm not attacking you.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I just want to map what you think is true. But dude, one thing I have learned, if you make people say in a single sentence what they believe. Believe, and you don't let them dance around and use flowery words and you're just like, are you saying this? You can make them extremely uncomfortable.

[Cody Sanchez]

Interesting.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It's fascinating. So that interview, I was like, okay to my team. I was like, I don't know if that was amazing or if that was trash. And they said the whole company was gathered around the monitor because we did it live. So, like this where we've got somebody editing. So it used to be in a totally different room. The whole company was around the computer watching because they only ever seen me do phase one interviews.

[Cody Sanchez]

Fascinating.

[Tom Bilyeu]

And so they were like, what the is happening? And so we ended up not launching it because it. I guess I came across a little aggressive. So we ended up not.

[Cody Sanchez]

That's a while. Well, I live in Austin. Land of the woo woo. So I've. I've heard it all.

[Tom Bilyeu]

They woo.

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh my God. Austin to the maximum.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Really?

[Cody Sanchez]

Oh, yeah. I mean, we. We were at part of this one gym, Shout Out Squatch. There's actually like, there was an Instagram channel about like Overheard in Austin or something. Or maybe it was Twitter. But yeah, I mean, I would be in the sauna and I eventually just told my husband. I'm like, we gotta stop going there. I was like, everybody's really nice, but we're in the sauna and I'm like, oh, what's going on? Cody? She's like, I'm rainbow. I'm like. And true story. And I'm like, that's cool, man. You know, great. And somebody else walks in. It's. It's her, dude. And I'm like, you know, how are you guys? What's going? I don't know. I'm being normal. I think they're like, you know, great. And, and I didn't know this stuff then, but they had like the, the marks from like the Toad. You can like, you.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You like dmt.

[Cody Sanchez]

No, I think it's called bufo. Yeah. Okay.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I know of it. I've never done it.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. So no, no.

[Tom Bilyeu]

It leaves marks on you.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah, it's like little burns and circles. So I was like, oh, man, what happened there? What's that? And he starts to explain it and then they start to tell me that they live at a. A, a female coven that is located in Austin. That she is the God. What was the word? I wish I could remember this. She was the. Not the goddess, but something equally cringe. So she was in charge of the coven of witches that he lived in. And. And I remember just sitting there thinking, this is fascinating. And also, I wish I had something to sell you guys because I bet you would buy it. Like, this is incredible. Incredible. And so that's Austin, basically today.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Wow.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Even more so than la.

[Tom Bilyeu]

You guys had witches?

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. The whole. The whole thing.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Interesting.

[Cody Sanchez]

Last time I was in, actually. What's that fancy. No, it wasn't. So one of the main streets in Hollywood or Venice, and there's a. There's like a crystal store there. You've probably been. You seem like a crystal guy.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I don't go into crystal stores as. As a matter of course.

[Cody Sanchez]

And I remember we were walking by and they had a. Like a, you know, crystal, all crystals being sold sale. So I walked in and I was like, oh, business is tough, huh? Like going out of sale. Nobody has money to buy crystals. And they're like, oh, no, we're getting a bigger store. That one across the way. Like two times the size.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Wow.

[Cody Sanchez]

And I was like, yeah, you know, explains it.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah.

[Cody Sanchez]

Yeah. Not your people. So I shouldn't send you a crystal next time?

[Tom Bilyeu]

You probably shouldn't send me a crystal. It's very sweet and I appreciate the thought. It's very generous. But I. Yes, I will not be wearing crystals or putting them under my pillow or anything like that. But it is fun. So here's what I try to do, because I actually don't like being a dick. That's not my personality at all. So I'm always like, with genuine curiosity. I want to understand what do you think is happening? Like, is it that there's something going on at the quantum level that we don't understand and see it in these crystals or what? But that's where people tend to derail when you make them say it in very succinct ways. And then I have a special place in my heart for people who use quantum to mean matters magic. I can't. I can't deal with it. Like, if. If you do that, you will not be a guest on this show. I can't do it.

[Cody Sanchez]

I think it's amazing. I actually find the whole thing fascinating because it's just such a. Like, have you watched that show? It's like how to build a cult or something like that. How to become a cult leader.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This is amazing.

[Cody Sanchez]

And I. I think it's really interesting that we humans, I do think we're in search of purpose at all times. And so you can either determine your own or you can be given it. And. And I think in this day and age, there's so many people that want purpose so very bad that they will turn to things that seem like they give them purpose. And so I do think it's something. It's a slippery slope. I'm maybe a little bit judgy about that. Just that I think you should determine your own purpose. And it's probably not in, you know, feathered caps and crystal necklaces, but, you know, that's. That's just me.

[Tom Bilyeu]

Yeah. So how do you determine your purpose?

[Cody Sanchez]

I think it's. I think, you know, I go back again and again to the best advice is the advice you give yourself. And I think most people know deep inside, if they were to spend some time with themselves, if they were to stop distracting themselves, if they were to stop medicating themselves and spend some time in the awful place that is just you in front of the mirror, then I think you actually often find exactly what you're looking for. For. And most people just aren't willing to look in the mirror. And I was one of those people for a long time, too. I mean, I was in corporate America for like 12 or 13 years living other people's dreams. And it took me really spending some time by myself to realize, man, like, this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing. And so I really think for most humans, it's, you got to start knowing yourself. And that was the secret that was told to us a billion years ago by an oracle, actually, actually to come full circle, you know, And. And so I think if you're lost, like, you probably have more answers than you think. Listen to podcasts like this so you can believe in yourself a little bit more, but just start paying more attention to yourself because it's hard to hide. You know, once you feel the sense of purpose, you can't let it go. Like, it becomes an obsession. And watch out. Everything else, but most people cover it up.

[Tom Bilyeu]

This has been amazing. Cody Sanchez. Where can people find you?

[Cody Sanchez]

Cody Sanchez on all the socials and contrarian thinking for the newsletter.

[Tom Bilyeu]

I love it. Every bit of it is amazing. I assure you I've spent much time in her world. I highly encourage you guys. If you really want to execute, there is no better place. Speaking of no better place, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care peace. Nine out of the 10 largest banks get it. They get the advantagescore. The modern credit score is the fourth leader in predictive power, improving mortgage default predictions and saving lenders billions. Better predictions, better for your business with VantageScore.