A (3:54)

Can you give our listeners a little more information on what it is that you do? This way they can get a little more information on how you help people that come to you.

B (4:03)

Yeah, so most of the work that I do is about increasing well being. So the idea is if we're burning out, it's because we're doing really well at work, but we're not getting enough support in our personal life to be able to maintain that. And so we end up in burnout. So people with different nervous systems, different ways of showing up in the world, the world isn't necessarily designed to kind of overlap with what they do. And so trying to figure out where the biggest expense up their ability to show up and be productive is versus the biggest benefit to them. So can we reduce the friction in their life and increase the ease in different categories? And some of those are sensory needs that happen that way. Some of it's executive functioning. Some of it, when you've been built into a system that wasn't designed for you come up with some pretty challenging beliefs about yourself. And the shame, blame and guilt and fear that show up as a result of those also play a role as people navigate, you know, day to day.

A (4:53)

Interactions, how do you help people get past that? I mean, this world, it can definitely be overwhelming to some people. So when they get to that breaking point, when they are completely overwhelmed, facing a possible meltdown or extreme anxiety, what are the steps you use to help them get that under control?

B (5:15)

Yeah, so the control there is an interesting word. I would say how to be more resilient, which is a little bit different in that the world is challenging and it's not designed for us. It's not designed for these individuals with this. Okay, so they're meltdowns. The intensity, the duration, the frequency, the level of anxiety, the frequency, the duration. That is what we're trying to play with is to narrow that gap as much as possible so that way they can have as much joy as they have access to. And it's not easy. It's a lot of work. But some of the little things really do make a difference. A lot of people go out there and like, oh, if I do all this stuff, I'll be enough to like, feel different. But sometimes doing more is actually what beats or exacerbates some of the symptoms that people are having. So sometimes we're looking at, well, what are you doing that already works? And how can we do more of that in an effective way? And a lot of our interventions seem to be like, really general interventions for people with mental health, like go for a walk, you know, take down time. And it's like, sure, but how much would I have to walk? And would that ever really get rid of my anxiety? Probably not, no. So what works for you that actually does make you feel better? What made yesterday better than the day before? Okay, can we spend more time doing that? And so coaching is an outcome based process where it's not prescriptive. It's actually an experience that people go through with that person in front of them. And so every single person is different. What works for them doesn't work for everybody.

A (6:30)

Now you're part of the National Board for Health and Wellness, correct?

B (6:34)

That is correct, yes.

A (6:35)

Okay, can you give us a little information on what it takes to get certified by that board?

B (6:41)

Yeah, so to be able to do what I do, there's certification process for that. There's a. It's the same governing board that makes people sit for the medical exam certification. It is not the same exam, completely different, but similar governing bodies. And so they wanted a way to actually get people to be a standard of care that's appropriate, that makes it across that. And they've been working pretty hard for the last few years to try to create that. And it is about health and well being. So it's about maintaining health and fitness, but also mental and emotional well being. Because those are, in their view, intertwined. There's no way to really tease them out from each other. And coaching is more of what they're focused on. So how do we elicit that response and make it easier for people to begin that process? So it involves a lot of motivational interviewing, appreciative inquiry. You just have to study and take a test, and then you have to spend quite a few hours working with people for them to feel comfortable enough creating that designation and applying it to people.

A (7:30)

Okay, that makes sense. Now, when a person comes to you, what is the criteria for you to evaluate and then come up with a plan that ultimately will help them moving forward?

B (7:44)

Yeah, great question. So everybody's different, everybody's unique. And so trying to figure out what's the best benefit with the least cost for them is a lot of what the work is that we do. I talk about the A3 framework, which is assessment, accommodation and alignment. And so that assessment is, we borrow sensory intelligence consulting, which is doctor of Occupational therapy Anne Marie Lombard. She has a sensory intelligence consulting where it's taking people through an assessment. What are all your different sensory profiles? Is it low threshold, high threshold? Are you sensory seeking or sensory avoiding? And which one across which one? Because some people love vestibular stimulation. They love being able to, like, feel themselves in space, but then lights or sounds or noises are too much. And so trying to make sure we know that and then figure out how to accommodate it, no matter where you are, who you're with, or what you're trying to do. And then if we can design your work around you. But that's just one aspect, right? We talk a little bit about other ones.

A (8:36)

Can you give me a scenario where you met with a person? Your first initial response to yourself was, this isn't going to work. You kind of think, I don't know if they have the right. Whatever it takes to get to the other side of this problem. Then you just chipped away and chipped away and finally it worked out way better than you had anticipated.

B (9:01)

So my favorite one was Sensory stories is there's an individual I was working with, she works in an office and she would have intense anxiety around her feedback that she would get from time for feedback. Okay, performance reviews, here we go. And it would be really not fun leading up to it and then really challenging after it and going through the whole process we worked through a lot of that. Is this about performance? Is this about, you know, my limiting beliefs? Is this about, you know, having too much coffee, not enough food at that time? What's going on around this? Like, how can we help make it easier to be you in these moments? And then we talked a little bit about, okay, well, there's a relationship between you and your supervisor. What does that feel like? Does it feel constructive outside of those feedback meetings? Or does this feel like, you know, a personal attack or interpersonal conflict here that's going on? None of that came up. All of that checked out. I mean, it could always be better. You could always sleep more, you could always be better fed, you could always be better exercised. Sure, right. But they didn't seem to be the outliers, so we're always looking for that outlier. So what was, like, interesting to me is like, oh, okay, my pockets are empty on this one. I'm, like, scratching my noggin. Like, what are we doing? Oh, bag of tricks is getting pretty low here. But there was just a simple suggestion, like, hey, would your supervisor be open to having your feedback meetings in a different environment? Because where they were meeting was one wall bank of windows on an office building shining in bright sun. And then it was like that fishbowl conference room where it's glass all the way around on the other sides. And so open office glass, them sitting across from each other, kind of that antagonistic with the sun coming in. And when they would talk, the voices would echo and reverberate off of that room. So they went for a walk. They had feedback. They were side by side. They'd walk around the building. They have those conversations. They went from having a fairly antagonistic relationship to now they go out for drinks after work together. They call each other on the weekends. They actually have an interpersonal relationship that's professional but still valuable for both of them. It turns out that this sound that was reverberating off of there was triggering their sensory threshold, and they were just getting into a hypervigilant state and couldn't relax. That and getting feedback. No one likes getting feedback. You're always nervous a little bit, right?

A (11:05)

Wow, that's actually pretty amazing. Now, how deep do you dive when you start looking at people's issues that they're going through? Do you look at their medications? Do you look at what their personal life may be, what their social life looks like? How deep do you go to figure out what's actually going on in their lives?

B (11:26)

Yeah, as deep as we need to and as wide as we need to. Right. So I work with a lot of other professionals and most people that I work with have a team that they're working with already. So whether that's a personal trainer, psychiatrist, therapist, the goal is for us to be able to help them as best as possible and so making sure that they've done all of their due diligence. And then I'm really there to try to fill in the gaps and partner with them to try to figure out, well, what else haven't we looked at yet that might be, you know, some low lying fruit still or some new territory that needs to be explored?

A (11:54)

So where do you go when you have a problem? You actually find a solution, yet there seems to be a small hiccup that still is there. How do you dig deep enough to find out what's going on? Because there's just so many things that ultimately can go wrong in a person's day to day life. It could be business, it could be personal, it could be that they're autistic or they have anxiety or serious mental illness. You can name any label that you want to put to it. Every different scenario is unique to itself and can have a different complication. How do you find out what it is that fits that particular narrative so that you can work with these people and they can move forward with their life?

B (12:42)

Yeah, it's a great question. I'm lucky enough that most of the work I do is confined around burnout. So there's this idea of workplace well being as the general scope. And so we're working in that. So we have a finite outcome where we go, okay, we're trying to make this easier to be you when you're at work and at home. Okay, One obviously affects the other and vice versa. And so because we have that frame, it kind of shapes how we kind of go through that. And so it makes it a little bit easier to get some real work done. Because we're not taking everything that it could be forever because that's overwhelming. We're trying to shrink it down to a place where it's really, really actionable. And here in the west, so much of who we are as a person is defined and reciprocated by the type of work that we do that a lot of, you know, it's almost like a, like a proving ground where a lot of our things show up in that environment and if we can handle them on that smaller scale and do something that helps there, it does trickle over into those other areas of life. But if we try to do everything all the time. Oh, I don't know. You know, I don't know if I could do it.

A (13:42)

Yeah, I get that. Are you the only one in your office or do you have others that you work with as well?

B (13:49)

So I do a lot of cross referrals. So I have people that I prefer, partners that I work with that have their own specialties. So if someone's got some other stuff that's way outside of the scope, that we want to make sure they're getting the support. I have a Rolodex and, you know, I send them some options in my clinic, it's just me. And then most of the work that I do is actually similar to how we're talking now, where it's over zoom. So I have clients that are in Bangkok and another one tomorrow that's in the uk and so it really is pretty fascinating to be able to work with people all over.

A (14:17)

That's very interesting. I'm actually glad you brought it up. I work with people all around the world with my podcast.

B (14:24)

Yeah.

A (14:24)

What do you find for the differences that you do in the different parts of the world and then how do you address it?

B (14:33)

So the individuals that I work with that are in these far flung places have a history of being from here in the States. So culturally it's pretty similar. The added difference there is they're taking that culture to that different area, and sometimes there's extra friction there for them that they wouldn't have experienced here in the States. Sometimes that's better because it's easier of a culture for them to lean into. Sometimes it's more challenging. Yeah.

A (14:57)

So how do you handle that? Culture shock can be just as dramatic as any kind of shock. So how do you dig and find out what they can do to help them get through whatever might be happening because of the culture differences?

B (15:13)

Yeah. Just thinking about a client that ended up working in Japan for an extended period of time. They're a remote first company, and the reason why they went to Japan is because walking around there is much more motivating and restorative than it is in their own city. So what's interesting is the culture shock there for them wasn't a shock. It was like. It wasn't like a cold shower. It was like a warm bath for them. It was. It was actually relaxing for it. And the formalness of the individuals and kind of that, like, I guess more quieter, like, professional kind of demeanor where people are walking around the streets versus here. Sometimes in the States, it's very interpersonal and personable. Like, hey, how's it going? You know, that was too much for them versus being out in public in Japan was very different experience for them. So they actually enjoyed that. It was fun for them.

A (15:58)

Yeah. Yes. I know a few people that have moved and lived over in Japan and they say that they love it there. So with everything that we've talked about, what do you look at as your biggest challenge? You've built a successful practice. You're making a real difference in people's lives. What journey brought you here? Can you share an extremely challenging job that you had? One where you realized, this isn't for me, I need to move on. How did that experience push you to pivot and ultimately find your way to the work that you are doing now? Do you have anything that comes to mind that really challenged you and really pushed you to the point of where you finally left it and moved on?

B (16:47)

Yeah. So my least favorite. I've had a lot of jobs, right? I got a lot of jobs. My least favorite job was working at a pool where I was the pool attendant. I wasn't a lifeguard. They did have a slide, but it was at a hotel that was kind of like a rest stop on the way between LA Disneyland and Las Vegas. And no one came to this pool. And it was my job to be there all day, every day, making sure that if anybody did get on the slide, they were safe. No one ever came on the slide, so it was just me by myself all day. That was the most unsufferable job I have ever had. If you paid me, you would not be able to pay me to do that job now, no matter what the money is, because it was so mind numbingly bored, I could not do it.

A (17:26)

So do you have people that come into you now that have those type of jobs that you have to walk them through it and help them through it? This way they can still unfortunately stay at the job that they do not like yet it puts food on the table.

B (17:42)

Absolutely, yeah. If you have to quit to get better, that is. There's so few people that actually have the luxury of being able to afford to be able to do that. Most people here in the States, you know, they're living paycheck to paycheck, maybe three paychecks, Right? So if you have to quit to be okay, that's not a real viable option for. For most people. If you have a dual income household, maybe you can swing it a little bit and you can kind of take turns on that. But even Then it's really challenging. So trying to figure out how we can add as much support as possible to that person, insulate them against the worst aspects of the things that may numb them, that overwhelm them, that keep them stuck. That's really the name of the game for most people.

A (18:20)

Yes. That is so true. Now, you say that you've worked with several autistic people. How do you approach that? It's a completely different scenario than some of these other situations, like bipolar or anxiety. You can't just give them a pill. You can't just say, here, take this pill. Call me in the morning. Yeah. How do you handle those situations?

B (18:44)

Yeah, so I don't prescribe medication. It's not my job, so.

A (18:47)

Right, yeah.

B (18:48)

And so my job is to stay really curious. If you've met one person who has autism, you've met one autistic person, how it shows up for them, what it does for them, completely different than the next person, the experiences they've gone through and what it means for them and the environment they're in. And so getting really curious and getting really excited and interested. You asked about the cupcake on the table type of job, and this isn't one of them, but for me, it feels like that because I really enjoy getting to know people and their stories and where they're at. And the excitement for me is about understanding where they are, what helps, what hurts, and what might actually be healing for them to go through and experience, and then helping them to facilitate that in their own life through a partnership. It's not easy to do, but it's super fun when it works.

A (19:29)

That's awesome. Now you enjoy what you do, and that's helping people, luckily.

B (19:36)

Yeah.

A (19:36)

With that said, there's a flip side to that, too. Sometimes you can get so entrenched with that person that's having problems.

B (19:45)

Sure.

A (19:45)

They're not taking your advice. They're continuing to have problems. Meanwhile, you're worried about them. How do you handle that?

B (19:54)

Yeah. So in therapeutic settings, that comes up a lot. Right. So you have to make sure you have your own support system. You have to make sure that you have your own therapist and your own team that helps support you through that process. And you have to have people to bounce ideas off of that are kind of trusted, so that way you don't get overwhelmed, so you don't kind of get all absorbed in it, and you be able to have your own ways of stepping away and turning that part of your brain into something else. So for me, right now, it's rock climbing, which has been pretty fun to be able to go out and kind of get in my body and do something like that. But there's times where, you know, dusting the books off of my shelf and reorganizing my bookshelf. Right. Or trying, you know, watching one of my favorite movies over again, but being able to take those little things and add them into your day as part of it, you know?

A (20:35)

So, yeah, that totally makes sense on relaxing for yourself. If you don't take care of yourself, no one else will. So how wide a spectrum do you see in people? And I'm not talking about just autism. I mean, you can have autism, ptsd, anxiety, adhd, schizophrenia. There's just so many different things. Do you see that wide a spectrum or is it a little more narrow?

B (21:05)

Yeah, so the people that I typically work with, we're working on burnout. So because of that, it's focused about work and vocational work focus. I always say I work with, like, high achieving, high masking people. So they may not have autism or adhd. They might just have a high performance. They may not have a clinical diagnosis. They may not even actually meet the criteria for that. But that doesn't mean they don't have an experience that they're suffering from. That's overwhelming to them. That's that they're challenged with.

A (21:33)

Okay, have you had a situation like this? I'm going to give you a scenario of a person that I spoke with. Just the other day, I had a person come on my podcast and he was going through bouts of agoraphobia. At times he said it was really scary and it got very, very intense, sometimes to the point and level of destroying things because he was feeling the intensity from the outside pressure that affected him. They finally did get him well. He called himself cured, but not really cured. It was completely under control. How would have you handled something like that?

B (22:15)

Yeah, I would definitely call one of my colleagues that specializes anxiety to the point that that would be their specialty. That's not something that I would necessarily be the primary care provider in or the support system with that. That would be something that I would want to make sure that they have that support and that they have that treated and under control. And now that they're there, okay, great. That we have this new capacity. Okay, what are we doing with it and how can we maintain that new capacity as we take on new challenges in our life? That's typically where I would show up in that process.

A (22:47)

Okay, so you kind of remind me, and I'm going To give you an analogy, that's going to sound kind of stupid.

B (22:52)

Yeah.

A (22:53)

When people are on cholesterol medications like a statin, and it's not working exactly the way they want it to, the doctors will give this little pill that's a booster. It's not a statin, but it helps the statin do the work to get it where they need to be. So you are kind of like the booster that helps people. I love it.

B (23:11)

I'm a booster. Yeah. Hey, if I'm helping boost people up, I'll take it, you know.

A (23:15)

Absolutely. The main thing is that the people get help that they need so they can live a fulfilling life. Now, what do you think is very important that our audience should know and hear about the impactful work you've been doing, your ongoing efforts and your future plans to support and uplift those that need help?

B (23:38)

Yeah, I think here in the States, you know, we have a pretty strong culture of like, productivity and worth being synonymous. And so we end up prioritizing the output from ourselves and the titles and the ideas and the things that we can show for all that effort as proof that we are worth something. And I think we got a long history of that for really good reasons here, but I don't think that that's actually true. I think it's a myth that we've all been led to believe. And so a lot of the work that I'm excited to be able to do and the message that I want to be able to share with people is that like, lasting success, like happiness, if you want to call it that. Sustainable success, where it's like positive affect throughout your day, isn't built through the expense of your well being, it's actually built through your well being. So if we're sacrificing to get some outcome, we already got the equation backwards. We're putting ourselves in harm's way. And so making sure that that's a message that people have access to. And then the idea that, like, oh, if I'm not producing that doesn't mean I have to shame, blame, or guilt myself. I can understand that, like, maybe that isn't tied to my identity. I can be a person without being this and. And making sure that we can go a little step further and bridging that message out to people.

A (24:42)

Yeah, absolutely. Now, let me ask you this. What you just said sounds really good on paper.

B (24:49)

Yeah, it does. Yeah.

A (24:51)

It's kind of like you read a book that tells you how to put something together and it says, oh, put A into B. Looks simple, sounds simple. Then you try and do it, and it's like, man, this is not that easy. How do you get it across to people when sometimes you look at them and then you tell them you've got your priorities upside down? They're looking at their job, they're looking at their money, they're looking at their financial future. Meanwhile, they're sacrificing their potential happiness because of their job. So how do you get that to a point where it can all balance out and people can be better?

B (25:30)

Yeah. Usually when people show up, they're aware that something needs to change. They may not know exactly what, and neither do I. Right. But through that work, it kind of shows up that way. I know from my own personal story, I was there. Burned out, overwhelmed, back pain, neck pain, chronic workout, long shifts, doing really good on paper. Team seemed to like me. I liked them, you know, whether they liked me or not, I was their boss. You know, they laughed at my jokes, whatever, but I enjoyed being there with them. But, man, some days my dog wasn't as cute. Some days my relationship was more challenging than other days. And it was pretty challenging for a long time, but I thought everything was okay because I was doing what you're supposed to do. Right. But I was going through that at the same time that one of my colleagues who I looked up to at the time, was suddenly let go from the organization where after 20 years of working there, and it was about two later when I was sitting in a meeting with his replacement, and we got word that that gentleman decided that he'd given so much of himself to the company for so long that there wasn't enough left in his own life to keep investing in it. So that news kind of shook me up. It goes, hey, you're on this path, you're going in this direction, and that's one of the potential outcomes. And you're already feeling the signs of aches and pains. So how much further are we going to go here before we figure something out? I hope all of my clients don't have to ever go down that route. Right. And anything and everything we can do to help prevent that or reverse it and give them as much as they can get back in their own, if that's the goal. Not easy, though. It's definitely not easy.

A (26:49)

No, that's for sure. It's a constant battle. Hopefully they can win it. Well, this has been really good. Great conversation, great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today.

B (27:02)

Thanks for having me on. I'm really glad to be able to talk about these things.

A (27:05)

Yes, it's been great. Thanks again. Thanks for taking time out of your bus schedule to listen to our show today. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know someone who has a story to share, tell them to contact us at WhyNotMe World. One last thing, spread the word about why not me. Our conversations are inspiring guests that show you are not alone in this world. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.