← Tony Mantor's : Almost Live..... Nashville
Tony Mantor's : Almost Live..... Nashville
Butch Vig: Producing Legends: the journey creating the 90's rock sound
00:26:32
Butch Vig joins us for stories of drummer of Garbage to producing such acts as Nirvana, Smashing Pumpkins, Foo Fighters and creating the sound of 90's rock.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:45]
Tony Mantour
My career in the entertainment industry has enabled me to work with a diverse range of talent. Through my years of experience, I've recognized two essential aspects. Industry professionals, whether famous stars or behind the scenes staff, have fascinating stories to tell. Secondly, audiences are eager to listen to these stories which offer a glimpse into their lives and the evolution of their life stories. This podcast aims to share these narratives, providing information on how they evolve into their chosen career. We will delve into their journey to stardom, discuss their struggles and successes, and hear from people who help them achieve their goals. Get ready for intriguing behind the scenes stories and insights into the fascinating world of entertainment. Hi, I'm Tony Mantour. Welcome to Almost Live Nashville. Joining us today is Butch Figg. He's a record producer, songwriter, the drummer and co producer of the rock band Garbage, which has sold over 17 million records worldwide. He's also produced Nirvana, the Smashing Pumpkins, the Foo Fighters, Green Day, and so many others. He's got untold stories from the studio trenches, wisdom on crafting timeless records, and that unmistakable drive that keeps him innovating. He's proved he wasn't just producing the sound of a generation, he was part of it. He's here to talk about all of that and how he is using his platform now, supporting a charity that gives back through music, creativity and community. So before we dive into our episode, we'll be back with an uninterrupted show right after a word from our sponsors. Thanks for coming on.
- [02:26]
Butch Vig
Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here, ma'. Am.
- [02:28]
Tony Mantour
Yes, A pleasure to have you here. Let's kick it off with a question about the early days of your career. Do you have a memory of that first moment where you was working on a project and then you said, wow, this is real. I'm here.
- [02:43]
Butch Vig
It was probably, well, I've been lucky to spend my whole life making Music. And I was in bands for many years, even through college, when I went to UW Madison and playing in bands there. And we started recording our own music. And it was with my band Spooner, who was also Duke Erickson and Garbage. We were bandmates back then, back in the 80s, long time ago. I became very interested in recording and we were making the first Spooner album. And Gary Kleeb from the band Shoes was producing it. And the whole session I was sitting there next to him going, why are you doing this? Why are you eqing this? Why are you compressing this? What's going on here? At the end of the record, Gary turned to me and said, you should get into producing and engineering, because I can tell it's in your DNA, you really want to do it. So he was very instrumental in pushing me gently to jump into production and, you know, engineering and producing. And then post college, I started Smart Studios with my other bandmate in Garbage, Steve Marker. And the first album I produced at Smart was for a band called Sometimes why from Minneapolis. They just turned to me, you know, I was just engineering. And they turned to me and said, well, you're producing this, right? And I go, sure. And I was not even quite sure exactly what a producer does. Exactly. Except have an opinion. And if you have an opinion, you can be a record producer.
- [04:04]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, I get that. I think I fall under that umbrella as well. So you've been around many different bands that just seem to blow up in a good way. Sometimes. It seemed like they were just there overnight, but as we know, there is no overnight success. So what did that feel like and how were your emotions when you had that first big hit record out there?
- [04:25]
Butch Vig
Well, really the first record that got a lot of buzz for me was Gish with Smashing Pumpkins. And that was honestly sort of the first big budget record I did. And even though we did the record in like 30 days, but it was enough time to really delve into the sound and the drums and the guitars and the tones and really nurture the performances. And up until then I had done probably 500 punk rock records, which I did in a day or two days. You'd record everything on day one and mix it all on day two. There were zero budgets. And very much where I came from was Spooner was all diy, there were no budgets. But that was the first sort of record where I had the time I could get all my ideas into the songs. And I pushed Billy Corgan and Billy Corgan pushed me back. And we raised the bar in terms of what you could do for an indie rock record. That got a lot of attention. And shortly after that, I went to LA to work with Nirvana. At the time I started recording Nevermind, Gish had just come out and was getting a lot of buzz. So very quickly, those two records just kind of took off.
- [05:27]
Tony Mantour
It's always nice when they just take off. Did you do Billy's in Chicago? He's been on this podcast and mentioned Chicago quite frequently.
- [05:35]
Butch Vig
Well, he. Yeah, he's talked about Chicago. He'll tell you how horrible the scene was. There a lot of backstabbing going on, depending on what neighborhood or what clan you hung with. Now, we did those records at my studio in Madison. I remember specifically the day I got a call out of the blue, like on a Sunday afternoon. I was in Smart, and I picked up the phone and this very effeminate voice said, hi, I really like the Killdozer Records. You do? I have a band named Smashing Pumpkins. Could we come up and record a single for Sub Pop? I'm like, sure. And I had never seen them play live, but I'd heard of them. And when they showed up, it was like they did not look like any other rock band that had come through Smart Studios doors at that time. And then they started playing, and I was just completely blown away. Yeah. Blown away.
- [06:20]
Tony Mantour
Yeah. That's awesome. Now, how long after that was it when you had the Foo Fighters?
- [06:25]
Butch Vig
Well, it's all compressed into so many time frames here. So the early 90s, I did pretty quickly Gish and Nevermind. And then after that, I went back and worked with the Pumpkins again doing Siamese Dream. But I also worked with Sonic Youth doing Dirty. And I was on a roll with doing projects that had jumped up to the major label. I worked with Fredy Johnson, I worked with Soul Asylum, L7. And that was a good. A very intense time period because I did not stop working. I basically lived in the studio, Tony, for 10 years.
- [06:59]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, I've been there.
- [07:00]
Butch Vig
Yeah, you just live in the studio. You're there 14 hours a day. If you're lucky to go outside and sleep for a few hours, you come back in and then start up again. But I loved it. It was incredible. And when you're doing something you love, it doesn't even feel like work.
- [07:14]
Tony Mantour
That's so true. And one of the best things about it is the creation of the music. There's nothing like creating something new in the studio. I've been in bands, I've been a singer on stage, done songwriting. There's nothing like being in the studio creating new music.
- [07:30]
Butch Vig
Yeah. And you know, I'm very lucky. I wear two hats. I'm a record producer and I love being in the studio. I'm also been in bands. I just came off of playing 60 shows with garbage this year, which is a lot for us and the shows have been fantastic. But I'm so happy to be home sitting in my recording studio here. I prefer the studio only because it's like a creative palette. And every day I walk in and I think something's going to happen and then something unusual happens. And there's always detours in the process. You go down these paths you have no idea you're going to do. And I'm somewhat addicted to it. I mean, being in a recording studio and writing and recording is just an incredible experience.
- [08:10]
Tony Mantour
Oh, I get that 100%. I never saw myself coming off the stage and getting into production work. Now that I've done that, I wouldn't want it any other way. Now, with that said, you get a chance to see things that most people never get a chance to see. Some very cool behind the scene things that no one will ever see. Is there anything that just stands out to you from all those years?
- [08:33]
Butch Vig
Well, man, that's a tough question because every session that I do, every artist who I work with, they have unique personalities.
- [08:42]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, I get that.
- [08:43]
Butch Vig
And they have a unique perspective and hopefully a vision of what they want to accomplish.
- [08:49]
Tony Mantour
Sure. Everyone's different there.
- [08:51]
Butch Vig
The first thing I do as a producer is I try to understand what that is and remember it's not my record, it's their record. So it's important for me to understand where they're going. And then really 50% of producing is psychological. You need to know when to push someone, when to coddle them, when to sit back and let them figure it out, when to take a break, when to throw a tantrum. There's all these things that happen in the creative process. And as I said earlier, it's so unpredictable that you just have to be able to very quickly adapt and go with the flow in the studio. And hopefully when you do that, you're moving in a positive direction. You know, there are days obviously working with people where you hit roadbloc or there's tension within the band, or the song is a struggle, and then you work your way through those and hopefully what comes out is something brilliant.
- [09:39]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, I definitely get that now. It takes a certain personality to be able to work with these bands and groups. Personally, I've worked with a Few, I tend to go more towards a single artist. So what's your recipe to make this work? As you know, when you're working with a group, sometimes it's three, four, five different bandmates. They all have their ideas where they would like to see it go. So what's your recipe to make this work out? So it's a win win for everyone involved?
- [10:07]
Butch Vig
Well, the first thing you have to understand is the dynamic within the band or the people collaborating with each other. There's usually someone who is sort of a primary leader or making a lot of the decisions. That takes a bit to figure out. I try to be cognizant of the fact that I want everybody to be involved in the process and be part of the creative team so everyone feels involved. That takes some figuring. It doesn't happen on day one. You know, it's like you have to just get in the process and then it unfolds over, you know, a couple days or even after maybe one song, you can kind of figure out what the dynamic is. Then you know, who to talk to, who to push, who to stay away from if they're not having a good moment, or who I need to negotiate with. Sometimes you have to sort of work out the politics within different band members to. To figure out what is the best thing. Ultimately, when you're making a record, you just want the songs to be great and true to the band's vision. But there are differing opinions.
- [11:05]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, that's true.
- [11:07]
Butch Vig
You have to work through that. Sometimes people aren't happy. Even in my own band, garbage. Basically, we're four producers and there are many times where I'm like, well, I got vetoed on this, even though I know I'm right. The part I came up with is great, but nobody likes it. Shirley doesn't like it, Duke and Steve don't like it. It's part of the creative process. You have to learn to go with the flow and you have to be fluid and understand what path you're going down.
- [11:31]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, absolutely. Now, what are some of the obstacles that you've seen and then you've had to figure out a way to overcome some of them. You could have been on the side that you was right, like you just mentioned, or you could been on the other side. And that might push against the ebb and flow of what the band wants, but you know, it's the right way to go for them. Are there any challenges that come to mind? And then when it was all said and done, everybody's listened to it and they go Whoa. That was definitely the right call.
- [11:59]
Butch Vig
That's also a really interesting question, because within a band, sometimes each song has its own dynamic, depending on what people are playing or the approach they're taking to the song. Sometimes what they're doing doesn't work. And even though that's their part, they've played it to the point that that's my part, I want to play that. And it's hard to tell them or get them to understand or listen to the overall big picture. Understand you need to play less or this part probably shouldn't even be in there, you know, because musicians and artists in general, a lot of their creative process is sort of spontaneous or within themselves. I don't think. They're always thinking of a big picture of how I have to fit in with everybody. Obviously, in a band you have to. If you're playing bass and drums, you have to know what the rhythms are and where you're playing fills and what the accents are. But it just depends on the band. And a lot of times I find that when I've gone into a studio with rock bands, they've been in a rehearsal room and they don't really listen to what everyone's doing. You know, overall, the sound may be great. And so sometimes I'll start a track and I'll just stop and go, okay, I want just the drums and bass to play together. What are you guys playing here? What is that rhythmic accent? What is the feel? Are you pushing and pulling? What's going on during the transitions in the course or the bridge, whatever. You'd be surprised, but a lot of times the musicians are like, wow, okay. I didn't know that's what was going on because everybody's in their own mindset. So part of producing is getting everybody who's recording to understand what the big picture is and what exactly the arrangement is and then adapt to that. So hopefully it gets really focused. I use that term a lot. Tony with bands needs to be more focused. I can hear a run through on a song and sometimes I don't know what's wrong, but it sounds messy or something's off. And it might take me a while to figure out what that is. But I keep telling the artist, okay, we need to listen to this. It needs to be more focused. And that's when I start to strip things back and play things individually or question what everybody's doing to make sure it all sort of hits the big picture.
- [14:00]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, absolutely. Makes sense. I mean, any one or two things can have a slight rub against each other until you strip it down and listen to it. It's hard to know exactly which one it is, but then eventually it stands out.
- [14:13]
Butch Vig
Yeah. Sometimes even the simplest thing, a drum fill going into a chorus could be a triplet. And the bass player is playing eight notes. These should both be locked into the same groove. Like I said, Sometimes people aren't aware of that until you really sort of break it down in the studio or in pre production and go through all the bits of the song. And when it's all focused and tight is when albums or songs sound incredible because everyone's on the same wavelength.
- [14:36]
Tony Mantour
That's so right. And that is so needed to make a great song. Now, speaking of songs, have you ever had anyone that has written a song, they love the song, you listen to the song, but it's just not them. Someone else needs to be singing it, but yet they're so into it because they wrote it. They're not looking at it objectively like you would be. Have you ever run into situations like that?
- [15:01]
Butch Vig
Well, when I go into work with a band, they usually, you know, give me 10 or 12 songs and say, we're ready to record, and then I'll listen to and go, okay, go home and write 20 more songs. Out of those 30 songs, we'll be lucky to get 10 killer songs.
- [15:16]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, that's so very true.
- [15:18]
Butch Vig
Most artists just think, we write something that's great. I'm guilty of that. I'll write a song here in my studio and show it to my garbage bandmates. How can they not love this? And sometimes they don't love it. That's, again, part of the creative process. So artists need to. I think when you're trying to push yourself, you write something that is hopefully accessible but also meaningful to you. Sometimes it takes work. And the first thing that comes out of your fingertips or out of your mouth or your guitar keyboard may seem brilliant, but sometimes it's just okay.
- [15:48]
Tony Mantour
Absolutely. Seen that many times.
- [15:50]
Butch Vig
If you want to push yourself as an artist, you have to put the work in. When we started Siamese Dream, I went down to Chicago and I rode around with Billy Corgan in a car. He was very secretive. He had put a cassette in and he'd play a song, a jam, like a demo, or a rehearsal of the new Pumpkins material. And then he'd stop and go, can't play anymore. I go, dude, it's just you and me. We're driving in a car. Just let me hear the song. You go, I can't play it. He did that on about 10 or maybe 12 songs while we were driving around, he kind of stopped them all. After riding around for about 90 minutes, he said, I'm not ready to make the record. And I think it took me being in a car with him and playing the songs with someone else listening to them for him to understand also, I'm halfway there in this. I'm 3/4 here. This song is great. This song needs reworking. And I think overall he just understood that he was not ready to go in and start Siamese Dream. And part of that was after we made Gish. There was a lot of pressure after Nevermind, you know, because I'd worked with Billy before Nevermind and we, even before we started Siamese Dream, people were telling me it's going to be a massive record. I kept saying, well, I haven't heard a song yet. We haven't gone in the studio and record anything. How can you say that? Immense pressure, especially on Billy, because he's the songwriter in the band. But he, riding around with me, realized it on his own that he needed to pause, go back in and work on the songs he played me and also write more songs. There was a six month break and when we came back, he wrote Today, one of the singles. He wrote Disarm. There were a bunch of songs that came in after that Ride Through Chicago that are key tracks on the album.
- [17:24]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, that's a great story. A story that most people that are songwriters absolutely need to hear. With everything that you've done, all the challenges you've been through, etc. If you could tell your younger self, hey, this is going to happen, so make sure you do this right. What would you tell yourself?
- [17:43]
Butch Vig
Oh, man, I don't know. That's also a great question. I think when you're in the thick of it, of making a record, whether it's when you're starting out as a band or when you get to a level where I was making these big major label records, it's hard to know how things are going to turn out. And I always wanted to have some success. And yet when you're in the process of recording, no one thinks they're making a record that's going to sell millions of copies at least. I don't think that I'm just trying to make the songs as good as they can be. There's no way to know what's going to happen that's up for really the public to determine or the marketing of a label. You know, are they going to push the record in some Ways I wish I had been a little more cognizant of the fact that there's a lot going on in the long term. For one thing, I wish now, Tony, that I had had a camera in the studio for Gish and for Siamese Dream and for Nevermind and Sonic Youth. Dirty everywhere we go now I'm holding up my iPhone. Everybody films and clips, everything, you know, there's so much content. And I always felt like the studio was a hallow ground, a sacred space where artists could come and there's no intrusion, no one looking over the shoulders, no peering eyes. So I kind of banned cameras from the studio. I always felt like producing with an artist. I felt like if I'm producing an artist it's almost like a doctor patient confidentiality. But now I wish going back that I just had a camera, even a couple of Instamatic Kodaks and told people I'm going to leave these around the studio, shoot some photos. I really have no documentation of all those sessions I did in the 90s.
- [19:20]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, I get that completely. Now tell us a little bit about Joey's Song. You're working with them. How did you get involved and how did that all come together for you?
- [19:31]
Butch Vig
Well, Joey's song is an amazing. I can't even describe what it is. It's a multi day event called Freezing man in Madison, Wisconsin where a lot of musicians come and we collaborate, jam together, we put on these really crazy cool collaborative shows and all the money goes to epilepsy to battle epilepsy. Mike O' Mall who runs Joey's Song, his son died about 15 years ago at five years old from a severe version of epilepsy. And Mike wanted to do something and contacted Fredie Johnston. So in year one it was just Mike Gomal and Fredy Johnston and Freddie played at a cafe I think in Chicago somewhere. The next year I was on tour with Garbage and Flaming Lips in Madison and Freddy and Mike were at the show and Friedy said, oh you should meet Mike. He's got this amazing benefit charity he works with called Joey Song. It turns out I knew Mike from the 80s. He'd been a stage manager at a club called Headliners in Madison that Spooner played many times. But we hadn't crossed paths for a while. When I heard about Joey's Song it struck me because I have several friends who battle with epilepsy. My best friend Bill Boyd, I've been with him when he has seizures, my sister in law has epilepsy and I just decided I'm Going to jump in full force. And so couple years after that we did the Joey Song benefits with Freedy and me and Duke from Garbage and a handful of Madison musicians. We have a cover band called the Know It All Boyfriends. And so we started playing bigger cafes. Then we moved into a small club, a bigger club and then we went into a small theater, then a bigger theater. Each year we keep asking artists to join us and every year we keep getting more people. And when they come to play with us, they come back every year. So this is the third year we're performing at the Sylvie and it's a multi night event in Madison. The Sylvie holds 2,500 people. It's a rock and roll camp. It's like a rock and roll holiday camp. It is so fun. Everybody who comes there leaves their ego at the door. It's very collaborative. There's 70 musicians this year. I'm one of the musical directors and so it' to me to sort of figure out what the singers want to sing, whether it's original music or covers. And then I've got 10 drummers and 18 guitar players and five keyboard players and string people and horns. And so I have to plug in all these people in these two nights where they play and they collaborate with each other. And it's kind of crazy. And it is so effing fun. I'm telling you.
- [22:00]
Tony Mantour
That's just great. And the beauty of it is just for charity and helping people and that's what it's all about. Now you've done all these things. What's on your bucket list? What is there still that you want to do?
- [22:15]
Butch Vig
Well, I still love producing. I just finished Silver Sun Pickup's newest album which comes out in January or February, called Tenterhooks and I love the band. They're also part of Joey's song. I love working with them because we don't know exactly where a record's going to go when we start it. We did most of it. You can see me in my studio here. We did almost all of it in this room here. Here. I'm also been starting to work on some scoring for films and just finishing up a horror film called the Third Parent. And it's really interesting. It's a nasty film. It's about a home invasion of the suburban family. The premise was interesting because there's some political overtones, a little bit in it, sort of reflecting what's going on in the world around us. But the producer and the director kept saying we don't want music we just want noise, we want sound design. So it's been really interesting. Rather than write strings and piano or traditional sort of old school music composition, I have a whole bank of modular synths in my studio here. And I'm just making sounds like. And it's really. It's fun. And every time we make something weird or I come up with a strange sounding cue, they're like, more. We want more of that. We want more of that. So. So that's been interesting. I'm getting ready to go in the studio with Garbage in September of 2026. We're going to Europe the spring and summer, but we're going to start a ninth album, and I'm very excited about that. We're trying to do something sonically different from the last record. Not quite sure what that means yet, but it's going to be fun. We're. I think we're going to possibly record the album in Europe, in France and Germany. That's sort of what we're thinking. Should be cool, because last couple records we've done here in LA.
- [23:55]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, that's great. So 2026 looks like it's going to be a great year for you.
- [24:00]
Butch Vig
Yeah, 2026 is already busy. We're doing a bunch of festivals in February and March. Robert Smith is curating a cancer benefit series at the Royal Albert hall in London, and he asked us to play on one of the nights. So we're going to be over there playing with Robert Smith, which is incredible because we're all massive Cure fans. And then we're going to Europe and the UK from the end of May through July. And as I said, we're hoping to go to Europe and start recording our ninth album in September.
- [24:29]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, that sounds great. We'll have to get you back on the podcast because this does well over in Europe and the uk.
- [24:36]
Butch Vig
Great.
- [24:36]
Tony Mantour
Yeah. And it's just great that you're playing and still performing.
- [24:39]
Butch Vig
Yeah, man. I mean, we're excited to keep making music. If you've seen any of the clips of Garbage, Shirley's been talking every night how we're winding down our touring, but we're not stopping touring. We just did 60 shows this year and we did a big North American headline tour and it was grueling. Just the physical travel. The shows are incredible, our fans are incredible. And also, it's gotten very expensive to do a headline tour since COVID The costs and everything are up like 30 or 35%. We're not going to stop playing, but I don't know if we're going to be doing headline tours like we did this last summer and fall, but I'm excited to make a new Garbage album.
- [25:15]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, that's great. I can't wait to hear it. We've covered a lot. Is there anything else that you would like to put out there for everybody to hear?
- [25:23]
Butch Vig
No, I mean, Joey's song is so incredible. If you're lucky enough or inclined, you can hop on a plane and come up to Freezing man for the second weekend of January in Madison, Wisconsin. Anybody who's been there knows it's it's the frozen tundra, man. But it's really fun. Like I said earlier, all the musicians come every year because they have so much fun doing it and we have a lot of new artists this year. Kurt Smith from Tears for Fears is with us. Matt Sorum from Guns N Roses, Miguel Cervantes, the star from Hamilton in Chicago is with us this year. He's going to be doing a Hamilton set on the Friday Unplugged show and with us on the Saturday full on Rock J. So many great people. Silver Sun Pickups, Chris Collingwood from Fountains and Wayne, Letters to Cleo. The Go Go's members of the Go Go's, Vicky from the Bangles. There's so many people. I have a list of like 70 musicians here. I can't remember who they all are, but they're all incredible.
- [26:20]
Tony Mantour
Yeah, it sounds like it's going to be a great couple of nights with just great talent. Well, this has been great, great information, great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today.
- [26:31]
Butch Vig
Thank you so much Tony. I appreciate it.
- [26:33]
Tony Mantour
It's been my pleasure. Thanks again. Thanks for joining us today. We hope you enjoyed the show. This has been a Tony Mantour production. For more information, contact media platomusic.com.
- [27:04]
Butch Vig
If you like the show, please take a moment to rate review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.