Why The Muppets Fight Hate | TMT #127 - Too Many Tabs with Pearlmania500

Summary4 min read

Podcast Summary: "Why The Muppets Fight Hate | TMT #127"

Title: Too Many Tabs with Pearlmania500
Host/Authors: Pearlmania500
Release Date: May 11, 2025
Episode: Why The Muppets Fight Hate | TMT #127

Introduction to Jim Henson and the Muppets

[00:30] Speaker 1 begins the episode by highlighting the ubiquity of negative news on smartphones and expresses a desire to revisit a more wholesome era centered around television. The focus shifts to Jim Henson and his creation, the Muppets, setting the stage for an in-depth exploration of Henson's life and legacy.

[03:11] Speaker 1 delves into Jim Henson's early life, mentioning his birth in 1936 in Greenville, Mississippi, and his upbringing in a Christian Scientist household. This background influenced Henson's early perspectives, particularly regarding medicine and health.

Early Artistic Endeavors and the Birth of the Muppets

[03:34] Both speakers reminisce about Henson's artistic talents during his youth, including set design for school plays and comic strip illustration, which laid the foundation for his later puppet creations.

[05:50] Henson's entry into television is discussed, detailing how he secured a spot on a local Saturday morning program by teaching himself puppetry. This opportunity marked the beginning of his journey as a puppeteer, where he initially performed alongside his handmade puppets.

[07:22] The origin of the term "Muppet" is explained as a blend of "marionette" and "puppet" introduced in 1955, transitioning from simple puppetry to a distinct brand of characters with unique personalities.

Transition to Education and Sesame Street

[08:39] After gaining initial success, Henson pursued further education at the University of Maryland, studying graphic design and taking a puppetry course. Here, he met Jane Neeble, a fellow puppeteer, fostering both a personal and professional partnership.

[12:08] Despite the success of his local TV show, Sam and Friends, Henson grappled with doubts about the direction of his career. This introspection led him to spend six weeks in Europe in 1958, where he immersed himself in European puppetry, gaining a deeper appreciation for it as a serious art form.

[21:34] The conversation shifts to the creation of Sesame Street, highlighting Joan Ganz Cooney's vision for an educational and entertaining show for children. Henson's expertise with puppets made him a natural fit for contributing to the program's success, bringing characters like Kermit the Frog and Rowlf the Dog into the Sesame Street ensemble.

The Muppets' Commercial Ventures and Cultural Impact

[19:04] The speakers discuss the early commercial work of the Muppets, including advertisements for dog food and bacon, showcasing Henson's ability to blend puppetry with consumerism. Notably, Rowlf the Dog became a staple in various commercials, illustrating the Muppets' versatility.

[34:51] A significant moment highlighted is when Kermit the Frog sings "Being Green" on Sesame Street for the first time. Speaker 1 notes, "But yeah, that's the first time that song ever came out. And it was really different for the time because it's a very introspective, somewhat like, melancholy song."

[31:41] The episode touches upon the representation of diversity and inclusion through Muppet characters. Speaker 2 mentions, "If Jim and I created Bert and Ernie as gay characters, they would have been inauthentic coming from two straight men. However, many view them as a representative of a loving gay relationship."

Challenges and Expansion Beyond Children's Programming

[40:08] Henson's desire to expand the Muppets beyond children's programming led to the creation of The Muppet Show in London, which became a global phenomenon. The show attracted numerous celebrities, cementing the Muppets' status in popular culture.

[44:23] Efforts to integrate the Muppets into Saturday Night Live faced resistance due to exclusive writing regulations, leading to strained relationships with the SNL writers and limited success in this endeavor.

Legacy and Personal Reflections

[66:38] The discussion poignantly covers Jim Henson's untimely death in 1990 due to a severe strep infection, reflecting on his relentless work ethic and the impact of his loss on both the Muppet community and fans worldwide.

[73:15] Speaker 2 reflects on the broader cultural significance of the Muppets, emphasizing their role in promoting diversity and understanding, stating, "Fear exists in the idea of not knowing. Ignorance creates fear."

Conclusion: Embracing Creativity and Legacy

[78:36] The episode concludes with a motivational message encouraging listeners to pursue their creative endeavors, drawing inspiration from Jim Henson's legacy. Speaker 1 shares a quote from Henson:

"At some point in my life, I decided... we can use television and film to be an influence for good, and that we can help to shape the thoughts of children and adults in a positive way. As it has turned out, I'm very proud of some of the work we've done, and I think we can do many more good things, because what positivity is punk rock."

[84:14] The hosts urge listeners to share their creativity without fear of online criticism, reinforcing the importance of starting and persevering in creative projects.

Notable Quotes

Jim Henson on Positivity:
Speaker 1 [78:28]:

"What positivity is punk rock."
On Representation:
Speaker 1 [31:41]:

"If Jim and I created Bert and Ernie as gay characters, they would have been inauthentic coming from two straight men. However, many view them as a representative of a loving gay relationship."
On Overcoming Fear:
Speaker 2 [73:58]:

"Fear exists in the idea of not knowing. Ignorance creates fear."

Final Thoughts

"Why The Muppets Fight Hate" serves as a heartfelt tribute to Jim Henson, exploring his profound influence on puppetry, children's education, and cultural diversity. Through personal anecdotes and in-depth discussions, the hosts celebrate Henson's creativity, resilience, and enduring legacy, inspiring listeners to embrace their artistic passions and contribute positively to the world.

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Transcript923 lines

[00:00]
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[00:30]
Speaker 1
War, violence, famine. These are the things we see every day on our dumb little phones. But now we need to go back to a time where when you could watch tv. It was nice. It was a nice time. And that's what we're going to explore today on this episode that I did research on about Jim Henson and his Muppets.
[00:51]
Speaker 2
Too many times. Remember to smile. Typically when you do a Deep Dive episode. I don't know what the hell you're talking about, but Jim Henson is saying, that's actually one of the reasons we actually, like, became a closer couple. Because you're like, I really like the Muppets. I was like, I really like the Muppets. And I feel like once you meet somebody else who's an adult who admits that they like the Muppets, instantly you're like, oh, this is. This person. This is gonna be a better person than I expected.
[01:17]
Speaker 1
Yeah, they're gonna be a good person. Wait, not all, though, because remember that one guy with the Muppets?
[01:20]
Speaker 2
We're not gonna go to the Muppet history Instagram account.
[01:23]
Speaker 1
That guy doesn't count.
[01:24]
Speaker 2
No, no, listen, I'm saying. That's why I didn't say is a good person. I said, might be a better person.
[01:29]
Speaker 1
Might be a better person. Okay, I see what you're saying.
[01:31]
Speaker 2
Okay, there's a. There's a line.
[01:32]
Speaker 1
Caveat. Caveat.
[01:33]
Speaker 2
There's a caveat. Big old asterisk.
[01:34]
Speaker 1
All right, let's see. Jim Henson was born James Maury Henson in 1936 in Greenville, Mississippi.
[01:42]
Speaker 2
Okay.
[01:42]
Speaker 1
Okay. He was the second son of Paul and Betty Henson. And Paul and Betty were Christian Scientists. Oh, yeah. And he was a Christian Scientist growing up for a while.
[01:52]
Speaker 2
Oh, I did not know that.
[01:53]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[01:54]
Speaker 2
Christian Scientists don't believe in medicine.
[01:56]
Speaker 1
Yes. They don't believe in medicine.
[01:58]
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's a big thing. Because a lady. I think Christian Science is the one where there was a lady in I want to say New England. And she fell on some ice and she got hurt. And then she prayed real hard and she got better.
[02:14]
Speaker 1
Okay.
[02:14]
Speaker 2
And then this was like the late, like the middle 1800s. And then she was like, I. That proves it. You don't need to go to the doctor.
[02:20]
Speaker 1
Don't eat them.
[02:21]
Speaker 2
And it spurned all these crazy movements and like religious movements around health. Luckily, we don't have that today.
[02:29]
Speaker 1
Not a problem.
[02:30]
Speaker 2
Not a problem today. But yeah, it's. They're very anti medicine and specifically like going to the doctor and like blood.
[02:37]
Speaker 1
Transfusions and things like that.
[02:39]
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
[02:39]
Speaker 1
They have specific rules around all of it.
[02:40]
Speaker 2
Yeah. Anyway, this is, all. This is.
[02:43]
Speaker 1
This has nothing to do with Jim Henson. So this won't.
[02:46]
Speaker 2
This won't be important much later.
[02:47]
Speaker 1
No. So throughout his youth, Jim was interested in art and later television. He was particularly close to his maternal grandmother, who was an avid painter and quilter. And he was. Visited her often. So they all. They often talked about art and being creative together. And she was very supportive of Jim's artistic efforts and encouraged him to use his imagination and take delight in the world around him. I love that. Thanks, Grandma.
[03:12]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[03:13]
Speaker 1
Henson showed a lot of early artistic promise, and he did everything from designing sets for school plays and acting. He also flexed his muscles as an illustrator by drawing a comic strip for the school yearbook that features characters that would eventually become some of his earliest puppets.
[03:30]
Speaker 2
Oh, okay.
[03:30]
Speaker 1
Yeah. So even in those, those high school comics, he saved those ideas.
[03:34]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[03:35]
Speaker 1
And use them later.
[03:36]
Speaker 2
Oh, that's cool. I like, you know that he has this. He also. That his school has out outlets.
[03:42]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[03:42]
Speaker 2
For him to be able to do that different stuff, it's like, yeah, you know, sure, STEM's important, but also put something out here for us art boys.
[03:49]
Speaker 1
For the art boys.
[03:50]
Speaker 2
Some of the art boys. Yeah.
[03:53]
Speaker 1
So during Henson's senior year at high school, which was 1954, a local television affiliate was wanted to create a Saturday morning programs staffed by young people as anchors and. And puppets controlled by young puppeteers. And as the Jim Henson Company's website says, Jim Henson wasn't yet experienced puppeteer, but he knew a good opportunity when he saw one.
[04:18]
Speaker 2
So this is going to be one of those annoying parts of anyone's biography from back in the day. There's so many biographies that I read at one point when I was really getting into early standup, where I was like, how'd this guy do it? How'd this guy do it? And so many of them, especially from the 50s up till about the 70s are. Well, I just went down to local theater studio, television studio was like, hey.
[04:37]
Speaker 1
What'S going on here with my resume?
[04:39]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[04:39]
Speaker 1
I said, knock, knock, knock. I want to get in there.
[04:41]
Speaker 2
I happen to go to church with the lady who was the secretary down at the thing, and she said, come on down.
[04:45]
Speaker 1
We're.
[04:46]
Speaker 2
We're trying to do a show because we want to get young people. And now it's like every television studio is owned by some massive conglomeration.
[04:52]
Speaker 1
Yep.
[04:53]
Speaker 2
And they don't have. They don't have any of the local stations anymore. And people don't get involved at that level. And so it's just. It's just the changes in the opportunities.
[05:02]
Speaker 1
And you have to sit on Indeed.com doing 47 applications three times each.
[05:06]
Speaker 2
Oh, and don't forget you have to take a personality quiz.
[05:08]
Speaker 1
I don't want to take a personality quiz. And terrible person.
[05:11]
Speaker 2
And then you have to also do a different quiz. And then even to work at the grocery store, you have to answer a digital quiz that asks you, if you catch a mom stealing a candy bar, would you have her arrested? Yes. No.
[05:20]
Speaker 1
Maybe never. I didn't see.
[05:22]
Speaker 2
Well, then you're not getting this job as a cashier at the Giant.
[05:27]
Speaker 1
Fine.
[05:28]
Speaker 2
Okay.
[05:28]
Speaker 1
Do you get a discount there? Maybe I lie.
[05:30]
Speaker 2
They may.
[05:31]
Speaker 1
I just lie on the quiz and then just not tell anybody.
[05:33]
Speaker 2
But then the thing is, like, what's the lie that they want you to hear?
[05:36]
Speaker 1
Yeah, maybe. You know, maybe. I don't know.
[05:38]
Speaker 2
I think maybe it's the same as. Yes.
[05:40]
Speaker 1
Damn it. Okay, so the local television wants to do a puppet show. He starts researching how to make puppets. So he's just like, you know what? I want this job. I'm going to learn how to make puppets.
[05:51]
Speaker 2
You know how you research. He went to the library.
[05:52]
Speaker 1
Went to the library and talked to his grandma, who taught him a lot how to sew.
[05:55]
Speaker 2
Oh, really? Okay.
[05:57]
Speaker 1
And he landed the gig. His talent landed him and his puppets were. Were an opportunity to continue working because he would lip sync with the puppets with the. It was like a Saturday morning show.
[06:10]
Speaker 2
Okay.
[06:10]
Speaker 1
And so he made the puppets and then he did, like, the lip syncing. I think he actually was on camera for a little bit. But before, like, he disappears out of frame for a while.
[06:19]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[06:20]
Speaker 1
But yeah, that's how he got his.
[06:21]
Speaker 2
Start is hand drag.
[06:22]
Speaker 1
He didn't hand drag.
[06:24]
Speaker 2
It's hand dragged. He's doing a puppet moving.
[06:26]
Speaker 1
Very funny, because Kermit did used to have a blue blonde wig for a while.
[06:29]
Speaker 2
Really?
[06:30]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[06:30]
Speaker 2
Okay.
[06:31]
Speaker 1
A lot of the original puppets had mustaches and wigs that were interchangeable, so depending on how they wanted to be perceived in gender.
[06:38]
Speaker 2
Okay.
[06:38]
Speaker 1
So the original Kermit had a blonde wig and a mustache that would go back and forth depending on what they were.
[06:44]
Speaker 2
So that way he could. He could gender them.
[06:46]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[06:46]
Speaker 2
That's so funny.
[06:48]
Speaker 1
But, yeah. So I just think it's very interesting that, like, he wasn't, like, super into puppets. He was. He found puppets as a way to get where he wanted to go.
[06:55]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[06:56]
Speaker 1
And you know what I mean?
[06:56]
Speaker 2
Which is crazy, because he's known as the puppet.
[06:58]
Speaker 1
The puppet guy.
[06:59]
Speaker 2
But he's really like, I'm an art guy.
[07:00]
Speaker 1
Yeah, he's really an art.
[07:01]
Speaker 2
I'm an art guy. I figured out puppets. They're like, all right, puppet guy.
[07:04]
Speaker 1
Shut up, puppet dude.
[07:05]
Speaker 2
All right, puppet boy.
[07:07]
Speaker 1
So in 1955, just one year after Henson started performing on television, the local affiliate he had been working with gave him his own show. This is in this year in 1955. This is when he started calling them Muppets instead of puppets. Oh, now he's a Muppet guy.
[07:23]
Speaker 2
Where the. Where the name come from?
[07:24]
Speaker 1
Marionette and puppet. It was the mix.
[07:27]
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. I would have gone with map it, then.
[07:31]
Speaker 1
Map it.
[07:32]
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, Marionette. I would have given that another letter to Mayor. To Marionette. No, I feel like when you combine words that you should try to be equal in the combination.
[07:42]
Speaker 1
I. I think you're. You're right.
[07:44]
Speaker 2
Marpet is what I would have called Marpet. I would have called on the market.
[07:47]
Speaker 1
Show the market.
[07:48]
Speaker 2
I would have called on the market if it's.
[07:50]
Speaker 1
Marianne Benson was successful, and you were not at this.
[07:54]
Speaker 2
Okay. No, he was successful because as a child, he got a television because it was 1954 and a lot of men died in war, and nobody believed that television. And instead, here I am on YouTube going up against Mr. Beast and his analytic horde of AI drones.
[08:12]
Speaker 1
Well, maybe you should have some cool shark eyes like he does.
[08:15]
Speaker 2
Okay.
[08:15]
Speaker 1
Look dead into the camera. That's nice.
[08:18]
Speaker 2
Today we're gonna find out if 100 men can beat one gorilla.
[08:22]
Speaker 1
Isn't that next week's episode?
[08:23]
Speaker 2
Maybe. I don't know. We live in a time warp. When was this recorded?
[08:28]
Speaker 1
We don' oh, okay, so that's a Muppet. Okay, so after finishing high school.
[08:34]
Speaker 2
Yeah, you hear yourself. Already has a television show. Has invented an iconic name.
[08:40]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[08:41]
Speaker 2
That I'm mad at now.
[08:42]
Speaker 1
He.
[08:43]
Speaker 2
So what did he do with the Marpets?
[08:44]
Speaker 1
The mark he leaves that job. And he goes to the University of Maryland, baby.
[08:50]
Speaker 2
Oh, he's a terrapin.
[08:51]
Speaker 1
Yeah, he's terrapin. University of Maryland, where he studies graphic design.
[08:56]
Speaker 2
You know what's funny is I went to. I went to a University of Maryland thing when I was in high school, and I liked it, but I ended up, like. I don't remember why I didn't apply there. For some reason, I didn't apply to Maryland. Oh, yeah. Because my mom was like, you got to go to school in the South.
[09:09]
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then Maryland's like, we wrote the stuff, like, shut up, Maryland.
[09:12]
Speaker 2
All right. But the. Every day since then, I was like, I should have gone to University of Maryland. I should have gone to University of Maryland. And I would. Had a better life.
[09:22]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[09:22]
Speaker 2
Never would have met you.
[09:23]
Speaker 1
Oh, that would have been so nice.
[09:24]
Speaker 2
And I would have just been so great.
[09:25]
Speaker 1
Oh, God.
[09:26]
Speaker 2
But now here we are.
[09:27]
Speaker 1
Well, if you get a time machine, definitely now.
[09:29]
Speaker 2
Now you've ruined the name of the Muppets for me.
[09:30]
Speaker 1
You ruined the name of the Muppets.
[09:32]
Speaker 2
I didn't ruin the name. I'm just saying that there's certain rules that I have. When you were.
[09:36]
Speaker 1
That you made up in your head.
[09:38]
Speaker 2
And you're putting it together.
[09:40]
Speaker 1
Okay. During his freshman year, puppet at University of Maryland, he took a puppetry course.
[09:46]
Speaker 2
Wait, they had a puppetry course?
[09:47]
Speaker 1
They sure did.
[09:48]
Speaker 2
Do they still have a puppetry course?
[09:50]
Speaker 1
I did not check. But, I mean, if they're in a. If he's in an art program. Liberal arts program back in the fucking 50s, early 60s, in this class, he met a senior, so he's a freshman.
[10:02]
Speaker 2
They do have a puppetry course, actually.
[10:04]
Speaker 1
They. I think it's the Jim Henson program.
[10:06]
Speaker 2
It is.
[10:06]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[10:07]
Speaker 2
I just wanted to check, because they better. Oh, my God. The guy. The guy who. You need to see the picture of Drew Barker. This is the guy who runs it.
[10:16]
Speaker 1
Oh, yeah, this is.
[10:17]
Speaker 2
This dude is into puppets.
[10:18]
Speaker 1
That guy.
[10:19]
Speaker 2
He just has puppets. The subject guy, Drew Barker.
[10:22]
Speaker 1
I'm telling you that we can tell you love puppets.
[10:24]
Speaker 2
You are, though. They have a whole. Oh, and it's even called. In the. In the book, it's called Henson.
[10:29]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[10:29]
Speaker 2
So they have Henson. Oh, five, two. Henson. Oh, five, three. Oh, my God. Oh, they have the different puppeteers that there's a whole.
[10:37]
Speaker 1
Yeah. University of Maryland, I think, is a destination for puppetry at this point.
[10:41]
Speaker 2
Because of Jim. Because of Jim Henson and because they had a puppet class back then.
[10:45]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[10:45]
Speaker 2
This is also back when, like, school was free. Thanks Reagan fucking Ronald. Reagan. Yeah, we'll get into that someday.
[10:51]
Speaker 1
We get into it. Like, every third episode, we scream about Ronald Reagan.
[10:54]
Speaker 2
Anyway, you want to. Hold on. Do you want to see a fuck? Ronald Reagan. Three, two, one. Ronald Reagan. Okay.
[11:01]
Speaker 1
Okay. Now he. Like I said, he's a freshman, but he meets a senior, and her name is Jane Neeble Nebel, E, B, E, L. And they hit it off. They are working together. They both have the same sense of humor, and they kind of are in the same kind of artistic idea of, like, what they want to do. And so they start working together professionally.
[11:22]
Speaker 2
Jim and Jane.
[11:23]
Speaker 1
Jim and Jane making little puppet shows and stuff. And they make this show called Sam and Friends, which was a success, but Sam and Friends was, like, financially successful, but I don't know that it was, like, in his heart successful, you know, like, he didn't feel successful.
[11:41]
Speaker 2
You know, that feeling, don't, don't. Don't do this. So don't. Don't start. Don't start doing this. Right. So early into the Jim Henson episode, because we watched that documentary yesterday, I came up with feelings during it.
[11:54]
Speaker 1
Yeah. And so he had to have. He began to have doubts about his career of performing with puppets. So, like, he has this successful show. He's been doing this, you know, for a few years now, and. But he's having a lot of doubt.
[12:09]
Speaker 2
When you say show, is it. Are we talking about stage show? Is it a television show?
[12:12]
Speaker 1
And Friends was on tv. It was on local tv.
[12:13]
Speaker 2
Okay, it was local. So it's somewhere in Maryland.
[12:16]
Speaker 1
Yeah, Maryland, D.C. okay. So he decides after he graduates, he's going to go spend six weeks in Europe of the summer of 1958. A wild time in Europe. So he goes to Europe, and while he's there, he realizes that the art form of puppetry is considered to be very serious in Europe, the same as, like, painting or sculpture. So, like, people take marionettes and puppets very seriously in Europe. And, like, there's a classical study, and there's an understanding of the art of it. And so he starts to, like, study under these people and go to these shows and learn more about it. And after spending these weeks in Europe kind of immersed in the way that they honor puppetry. And it re. It. It invigorates him into this idea of, like, these Muppets he's invented. This is serious because, like, he was. He couldn't take himself seriously, I think. Like, he. You know, it's the 50s, I think. And so there's, like, this idea of, like, what a real job is. And what real art is and what.
[13:15]
Speaker 2
A real man does.
[13:16]
Speaker 1
What a real man does. And so I think he probably just needed to break through and see, like, this is a real thing. You're making this really. This thing you want to make to get the things you want out there. And so he came back from Europe refreshed and ready.
[13:29]
Speaker 2
I think there's also a difference in what is considered art and what. What puppetry is considered for. The same thing. The same thing happened with animation.
[13:37]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[13:37]
Speaker 2
Like, there's. It really wasn't until the last 15 years that animation has been considered to be even viable for adults to even view and not feel, like, gross about it. And then. Same thing with video games. Yeah, like, video games. Until very, very recently, video games have always been looked at as, like, a child's interest. This is for kids. This is for kids. For kids.
[14:01]
Speaker 1
You know, the funniest part about all of that is, like, this idea that, like, okay, so video games are for kids. Guys don't play these. These are for kids.
[14:08]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[14:08]
Speaker 1
Or puppets are for kids. Don't play with puppets or any of these things. It's like, there's always this. This societal dialog that you shouldn't enjoy these things because they're for children. And. And. But the people that are always running those companies, like the video game companies, are older men making so much fucking money. And it's just funny to me that, like, these. These rich CEOs always like, you guys shouldn't like this thing. But also, we need to sell it to everybody.
[14:35]
Speaker 2
But it's also one of those things where we always look at the idea of, like, what children like as something that's pure. Right. Because, like, through the eyes of the child, they. They haven't had, like, the. The ruins of society or, like, you know, trauma or any of things that come in to ruin what they would enjoy.
[14:49]
Speaker 1
Right.
[14:50]
Speaker 2
And so the fact that you're like, oh, well, kids like it. It's like, yeah, because they haven't dealt with the horrors of wars. Like, what are you talking about?
[14:59]
Speaker 1
And it's like, I want to, like, I'm happy that I can watch the Silly Billy shows with my kid. That's nice.
[15:04]
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, that is nice.
[15:05]
Speaker 1
Nice.
[15:06]
Speaker 2
And then sometimes there is times where you want to just kind of shut it off. Yeah, a little bit. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh, it doesn't have adult themes. Good.
[15:13]
Speaker 1
Thank God.
[15:14]
Speaker 2
Oh, my God. The other day we were watching.
[15:17]
Speaker 1
Oh, I love that.
[15:18]
Speaker 2
The other day, you and I were watching a show we were enjoying, and out of nowhere. They threw an adult theme at us that we weren't expecting. It was real haymaker of a moment. And I was like, here we are, Season four, episode two. Oh, that's a great way to close an episode.
[15:29]
Speaker 1
And I was like, we have to go to bed.
[15:30]
Speaker 2
Yeah. But also, we gotta keep going now. Jesus. They wouldn't do this with puppets.
[15:36]
Speaker 1
Everybody loves puppets.
[15:37]
Speaker 2
Everybody loves a puppet. Also, I. When I was growing up, I love puppets.
[15:40]
Speaker 1
Yeah, I love puppets.
[15:41]
Speaker 2
I think there's something about puppets too, that puppets are. There's a thing that kids automatically can understand that a puppet isn't real, but is.
[15:51]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[15:52]
Speaker 2
And I think kids inherently understand. Not the full suit stuff. And we'll get into that later.
[15:57]
Speaker 1
But like a little hand.
[15:58]
Speaker 2
But like. But legit. Just a sock. A sock puppet. Like, kids instantly understand that. Like, that is your arm.
[16:05]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[16:05]
Speaker 2
Mommy's doing that. Daddy's doing that. However. Grandma. Grandpa's doing that, however. It's still silly. And they can focus on. On it going like that, even without the pup. Even without the sock. I go like that sometimes to our son. He's like, ha, ha, ha. He just finds it really funny because of the focus on this other thing. And it's. It's a. It's a bridge point of imagination.
[16:23]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[16:24]
Speaker 2
And it's just always a thing that's been. I've been drawn to.
[16:26]
Speaker 1
So we're saying is puppets and Muppets are great. Love them. We're not using mar.
[16:33]
Speaker 2
Pits. I'm gonna call them.
[16:34]
Speaker 1
We're not gonna make this happen. Okay. Fetch is not happening. Wait, did we ever talk about how. See how he laughed? Do you see how he laughed? Okay, that was a good joke.
[16:43]
Speaker 2
Don't. Don't bring in. Don't bring Mr. Third and don't bring the producer to try to save a joke.
[16:48]
Speaker 1
No, I'm not saving a joke. It's. I need people to understand that you never saw Mean Girls, so you don't understand me.
[16:55]
Speaker 2
I've seen Mean Girls.
[16:56]
Speaker 1
You saw Mean Girls now because I forced you to watch it. And can I just tell you, this is. This is off. The topic was last year or so, I was like, this is. This is it. You're fucking watching Mean Girls. Sit the fuck down. And we watch Mean Girls. And when I tell you over and over and over again, he goes, oh, is that where that joke comes from? Oh, is that where that meme comes from? Oh. And it. I. It was through the eyes of a child witnessing Mean Girls that I realized how much of our cultural jokes come from that friggin movie.
[17:26]
Speaker 2
Do you want to, you want to talk about memes? You want to talk about where memes come from? How about the fact that, that there was a teacher recently talked about how the their kids were born in 2008 and 2009. And so they had to explain 911 to the children. And when they put up the picture of George Bush being told about the second plane hitting the tower, one of the kids went, wait, that's where that meme comes from. And all the kids realizing that they've been laughing at 911 memes their entire life.
[17:52]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[17:52]
Speaker 2
Okay, so what I'm saying is Mean girls is my 9 11. Okay? Now it's time to play the music. It's time to light the lights. It's time to meet the Marpets on the Marpet show tonight.
[18:02]
Speaker 1
So in 1955, Jim Henson invented Kermit the Frog. He used his mother's old green coat and a ping pong ball cut in half and he sewed together a little green. He wasn't technically a frog then. He was just a little green Muppet guy.
[18:16]
Speaker 2
He's a green thing, but on TV when everything was black and white, so.
[18:18]
Speaker 1
You can't really matter until color came. And then he was like, it's a. And then in 62, he invented Rolf, the one that plays the piano. Little dog. I love Ralph.
[18:27]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[18:29]
Speaker 1
Specifically for appearing a dog chow ads.
[18:31]
Speaker 2
Yeah. Cuz he's doing a lot of ads. He's doing a lot of ads which I found hilarious.
[18:36]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[18:37]
Speaker 2
And I've always found hilarious. And they, they, when we watched a documentary about him, they played a couple.
[18:41]
Speaker 1
Of the ads crazy. They're shooting people in the face.
[18:44]
Speaker 2
Yeah. So there is a, there is a early ad for. I think it was bacon or meat.
[18:51]
Speaker 1
It was some meat.
[18:52]
Speaker 2
And they had these really, really fast ads. And there's one where this punt just goes, yeah, I'm a vegetarian. And the other puppet pulls out a gun and shoots him in the face. Just shoots him directly in the face. But they were like, they're very violent.
[19:05]
Speaker 1
They're so violent.
[19:06]
Speaker 2
But the part that I find very funny is I find that a lot of people that love the Muppets and mainly because of later Sesame street and all these other different things, there's this view of like anti capitalist or like non consumer belief because of the PBS of it all. You know what I mean? There's this feeling about it. But like the Muppets was built on like crass consumerism.
[19:28]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[19:28]
Speaker 2
Like Jim Henson ate Because of cigarette ads?
[19:31]
Speaker 1
Yes, cigarette ads. Bacon.
[19:33]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[19:33]
Speaker 1
White bread.
[19:34]
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's just all a dog chow.
[19:36]
Speaker 1
Got his own muppet. Which became Rolf.
[19:38]
Speaker 2
Yeah. Which with a piano playing dog.
[19:40]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[19:40]
Speaker 2
It's me, Rolf. Like it's best if there's so many different things about that where it's like it wouldn't exist without these ads is.
[19:47]
Speaker 1
So, so cut to our ad sponsor, right?
[19:49]
Speaker 2
Oh yeah. You know what? This, this would be an incredible place. And you know what? This is an incredible place to throw to an ad. Don't use Reddit to diagnose that rash on your leg. Use an actual doctor. Okay, stop. Stop googling things. When you have a problem, you should talk to a doctor. Alright? And the best way to do that is through zocdoc. Zocdoc is a free app and it's a website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. You can even filter for doctors who take your insurance, are located nearby. They have great ratings. Come on.
[20:27]
Speaker 1
We've been using it for quite a while now and it's so convenient and really helps us to find specialists that we need.
[20:32]
Speaker 2
Yeah. Appointments made through Zocdoc also happen incredibly fast, typically within just 24 to 72 hours of booking. You can even score a same day appointment. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com tabs to find and instantly book a top rated Doctor today. That's z o c-o c.com tabs zocdoc.com tabs or check the show notes.
[20:58]
Speaker 1
So there's this lady, Joan Ganz Cooney, and she is in the process of developing a TV show for kids, pardon me, called Sesame Street. And you know what I found out about Joan Gaines Cooney? She had funding behind this program to make this idea. Because again, this is a concept, okay? This is. We're just trying to figure out this idea. Little kids watch tv. Maybe we should make TV especially for them. Maybe we should make it educational and fun so they could learn. What a crazy idea. And so she got hired with funding from a foundation to come up with this idea. And guess who funded it?
[21:35]
Speaker 2
Who?
[21:35]
Speaker 1
The fundamental Carnegie Foundation.
[21:38]
Speaker 2
Oh really?
[21:39]
Speaker 1
So allow me to yet again go on a rant, okay, about how Rich used to invest in the community. The Carnegie foundation was made in 1911 by a baron.
[21:50]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[21:51]
Speaker 1
And it funded Sesame street decades later. Anyway, a lot of people assume that Jim Henson was the creator of Sesame Street. He wasn't, but he was called in because he Was known as the Muppet Guy.
[22:04]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[22:05]
Speaker 1
And they thought, you know what? Kids love puppets.
[22:08]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[22:08]
Speaker 1
And so Joan actually reached out to him.
[22:10]
Speaker 2
Well, actually, one thing I found interesting about it is, again, going back into him doing so much commercial work. And what Joan's idea was, which was groundbreaking for Sesame street, which was, kids are taking in television. Kids are being fed ads. We know how to make. We know how to sell people stuff. Right. We know how to sell them cars. We know how to sell them luggage. We know how to sell them vacations.
[22:35]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[22:35]
Speaker 2
Can we sell children the Alphabet? Can we sell children numbers, Addition.
[22:41]
Speaker 1
Yeah. They wanted to get them ready for.
[22:43]
Speaker 2
Pre K. Basic ideas. Yeah. That they might not be getting. And especially as we're getting to the 70s, we're getting into the latchkey kid generation, where you have more kids who are home alone.
[22:53]
Speaker 1
It's 10pm do you know where your kids are?
[22:55]
Speaker 2
Yeah. With one or no parents who are available. And so they're just sitting in front of these televisions. So instead of trying to sell them sugar, sugary snacks, or trying to sell them some of these other things, it was like, hey, well, why don't we put on pbs? We'll put this show. And Jim, coming from the commercial background of like, hey, I gotta sell these kids cigarettes in the 1950s. And, like, I gotta sell bacon.
[23:21]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[23:21]
Speaker 2
How do I sell somebody? On wanting to understand what addition is.
[23:25]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[23:26]
Speaker 2
And. And it's very interesting that he would come in. So, of course, the Muppets and Jim Henson would become such an outsized part of it.
[23:33]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[23:33]
Speaker 2
Because of the outsized role he already had in that. That kind of background.
[23:38]
Speaker 1
Yeah. So he signs on, obviously.
[23:40]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[23:41]
Speaker 1
And he brought a team with him that included Frank Oz, who is. He had met him at a puppetry convention, as one does as a child. As a child. Yeah.
[23:50]
Speaker 2
Which we did not like was noted. There's a. There's. Hey.
[23:53]
Speaker 1
He waited till he graduated high school.
[23:54]
Speaker 2
Okay. It's so weird. It's so weird. We're not. We're not alleging anything nefarious. It's one of those things. This is a thing of the 50s, 60s and 70s stories.
[24:04]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[24:04]
Speaker 2
There was a time where people would be like, hey, there's, like, this. This kid would show up and they would, like, hang around the studio. And then we just gave him a job. And it's like, today we'd be like, you, like, kids hang around your studio. There's just that moment. But back then, it was just one. It was. I don't want to say back then it was different.
[24:20]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[24:20]
Speaker 2
But back then we didn't have all these horror horrifying stories yet. Yet.
[24:25]
Speaker 1
But yeah. No. So he was the young kid, Frank Oz.
[24:27]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[24:27]
Speaker 1
Who you could do a whole episode on because he's very interesting guy.
[24:30]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[24:31]
Speaker 1
Very talented. So he comes on and he performs Bert and Cookie Monster and Grover and Carol Spinney. Also he played Oscar the Grouch and Big Bird. Fun note about Big Bird. He is the idea of. Big Bird is a character modeled on an easily flustered four year old who needs a lot of help. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, Big Bird, easily flustered four year old that needs a lot of help.
[24:55]
Speaker 2
I. Early Big Bird is terrifying. Go if you want to ever have fun.
[25:00]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[25:01]
Speaker 2
Google a picture of early Big Bird. Because the modern Big Bird has gone through decades of textures. Fluffy eyes are big. The original. There's like you. You can really tell it's a guy's hand up there and like the way it's draped. So one of the things I've always found really funny is there was a Far side comic. Remember Far side Gary Larson?
[25:22]
Speaker 1
Absolutely.
[25:23]
Speaker 2
I remember seeing this as a kid and it was a drawing of. It was like an X ray of like a dinosaur, right?
[25:30]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[25:30]
Speaker 2
I think this is what it was. X ray of dinosaur. And showed like the bones.
[25:33]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[25:33]
Speaker 2
And then it was an X ray of like Big Bird and it showed like a man with the arm.
[25:38]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[25:38]
Speaker 2
All the way up. I don't know if my arms in frame, but he's like, you know, the arm straight. And I remember as a kid immediately being like that didn't. That didn't terrify me. I understood that there was. That Big Bird was a puppet.
[25:48]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[25:48]
Speaker 2
I understood it was a man in a suit. What terrified me though is I assumed by, I think the early 90s that that was. That his mouth wasn't a hand.
[25:57]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[25:58]
Speaker 2
I assumed that there was a guy in there who's in a suit who had both his hands free for the arms.
[26:05]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[26:06]
Speaker 2
And that he was wearing a stalk thing with an animatronic to move the head and mouth. That's what I assumed.
[26:13]
Speaker 1
Nope.
[26:13]
Speaker 2
No, there's just a guy in there who six, seven, eight hours a day has his right arm up in the arm.
[26:20]
Speaker 1
Strong arm.
[26:21]
Speaker 2
Just. Just right arm up for how many like it just.
[26:25]
Speaker 1
My arm would go to sleep if I did that.
[26:26]
Speaker 2
I think about this all the time with the Muppeteers. Sorry. The Marpeteers. The. They. Their arms are just up.
[26:34]
Speaker 1
Their arms are up how?
[26:35]
Speaker 2
Like if I. You remember as a Kid, I want all the listeners right now. I want. And all the viewers, all the people take your arm and raise it. Just raise your arm. Just raise it like you were in school. And just hold it up there for a bit. Just hold it up there and just sing. Sing a song. Sing in your head.
[26:56]
Speaker 1
Make it happy.
[26:57]
Speaker 2
Make it happy.
[26:58]
Speaker 1
That's a.
[26:59]
Speaker 2
What's the song? I don't remember that song.
[27:02]
Speaker 1
You're going to keep your arm up for the rest of this until.
[27:04]
Speaker 2
I'm just saying is, like, if you keep it up and you feel the blood flow out of it and now move your hand a little bit. Just start moving just your hand and just feel like what that feels like. And it's like, there's a guy inside that suit. We've never seen a shot of the guy in the Big Bird costume. Bring his arm down.
[27:22]
Speaker 1
No, he lives like that.
[27:24]
Speaker 2
He has to, because think of how terrifying it would be to see Big Bird deflated.
[27:29]
Speaker 1
That's not true. He does put his arms down because he also does Oscar the Grouch.
[27:32]
Speaker 2
No, I'm saying, though. But anyways, in the suit, Carol Spinney, the original guy. Spivey. Spinny, spinny, spinny. So, like, it's just one of those things where I always think about that all the time. When I was a kid, I love puppets, and. And I remember seeing that image from the Far side, it made me be like, oh, I don't want to be a puppeteer.
[27:49]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[27:49]
Speaker 2
I don't want to be a Muppet puppeteer. Because back in the day, the old guys, the ones who were pre Henson, they would do Punch and Judy, Right, With a little curtain. And so they were kind of sticking their hand straight out through a curtain and going like this so they could kind of rest their arm. The Muppets are doing something different, which is they use the television frame as. As the Punch and Judy theater box.
[28:13]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[28:13]
Speaker 2
And that's where Jim Henson's different from all the other guys because he's like, oh, you're seeing all that's inside the box. So he's framing everything through there. So all of them are just below sticking their hands in and watching them on or down below.
[28:25]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[28:25]
Speaker 2
So they're all just holding their arms up for fucking decades.
[28:29]
Speaker 1
So a Far side comic is the reason you didn't become Jeff Dunham.
[28:34]
Speaker 2
Okay, I. That's a ventriloquist. I didn't want to ever be a ventriloquist. Okay. The reason I didn't become Jeff Dunham.
[28:51]
Speaker 1
Wait. Also, fun fact, the original Big bird that you said, like, his head looks crazy is because he was actually. That skeletal skeleton of that puppet outfit was actually originally a dragon because he got repurposed from a la Choi campaign that Jim Henson had done.
[29:10]
Speaker 2
Oh, la Choi. Like the. The chop noodle, chop suey noodles and all that stuff. Yeah. That's crazy.
[29:15]
Speaker 1
So it was a la choy ad he had done in, like, the.
[29:17]
Speaker 2
But that proves that dinosaurs are birds.
[29:19]
Speaker 1
There it is.
[29:20]
Speaker 2
That proves that dinosaurs are birds. It was a dragon, Right?
[29:22]
Speaker 1
The dragon.
[29:23]
Speaker 2
It was a dragon. So he was a lizard that turns into a big bird.
[29:28]
Speaker 1
Yep. I'm saying that.
[29:30]
Speaker 2
Look what happened. But also a lot of the. A lot of the markets are actually. I'm making you so mad. A lot of them are reused. A lot of them are reused across, as you were saying, from his original ideas as a kid and then through.
[29:44]
Speaker 1
Kermit has fully become a frog by this point.
[29:46]
Speaker 2
Yeah, but all these different things are they. They would. Oh, we'll try this over here and try this over here.
[29:50]
Speaker 1
Also, one little piece of canon that I have about Sesame Street. Canon. Did you know that Oscar the Grouch is orange? This is. This is canon. Oscar the Grouch is orange. But he visited a swamp in the early season Sesame street, and he caught colored green from the swamp water, and he just hasn't washed it off. That's a canon event.
[30:17]
Speaker 2
Okay, I know we're not. Okay. I know that this is a deep dive episode and people are looking for respite, but this makes so much sense because of that one episode of Sesame street where the guy. The.
[30:30]
Speaker 1
The Donald Trump Oscar.
[30:31]
Speaker 2
The Donald Trump Oscar and all the other grouches are orange.
[30:34]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[30:35]
Speaker 2
And he's like, I'm the most orange.
[30:37]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[30:40]
Speaker 2
Oscar's actually orange.
[30:42]
Speaker 1
He's actually. I assume that it was just like early testing was like, kids didn't like the orange and that they turned them green.
[30:47]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[30:48]
Speaker 1
But yeah, he. He was green because of the swamp water and stuff. He hasn't washed. He just hasn't taken a shower because he lives in a garbage can. Little Oscar the Grouch. I love Oscar the Grouch.
[30:59]
Speaker 2
That is so. Yeah. During the second season. That's so crazy.
[31:03]
Speaker 1
So Bert was played by Frank Oz and Ernie is played by Jim Henson. Now, there's been speculation for years that they represented a gay couple, which, according to the team, they did not. They were supposed to show kids you can be friends with someone who frustrates you. But in 2018, Frank Oz tweeted, quote, if Jim and I created Bert and Ernie as gay characters. They would have been inauthentic coming from two straight men. However, I have learned that many view them as a representative of a loving gay relationship. And that's pretty wonderful. Thank you for helping me understand.
[31:42]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[31:43]
Speaker 1
Isn't that nice?
[31:43]
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's nice.
[31:44]
Speaker 1
I love that.
[31:45]
Speaker 2
I think there was always that feeling. We were watching that because we were joking.
[31:49]
Speaker 1
We watched Sesame street every day. And I'm like, they're roommates.
[31:52]
Speaker 2
Yeah. But they're. And they were. And they were roommates.
[31:55]
Speaker 1
And they were roommates.
[31:55]
Speaker 2
And they were close friends.
[31:57]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[31:57]
Speaker 2
No, I think that the other part that's actually very different about Bert Nurney back in the day is that you. It was more rare for people to have roommates.
[32:08]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[32:09]
Speaker 2
I think they actually slowly become less. You have less of it now because so many people have to live with roommates longer.
[32:19]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[32:19]
Speaker 2
There's less people with adult roommates. I mean, more people with adult roommates now because of the changes, especially in the American economy.
[32:26]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[32:27]
Speaker 2
I think when the characters are first rolled out in the 70s, even in the 80s, it's like, yeah, you have roommates when you're at college, maybe your early 20s.
[32:34]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[32:34]
Speaker 2
And then the people who still have roommates, wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Like that was like that 80s joke.
[32:41]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[32:41]
Speaker 2
And then the 90s, especially the 2000. Especially once we hit the 2008 recession.
[32:46]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[32:46]
Speaker 2
It's like. Yeah. I mean, shit, we had you and I had. You and I were living together with a roommate at one point for sure. Like, it's just, like. It's just something that now people carry roommates into their 30s, 40s, sometimes. People never live without roommates. Yeah. It's just how it goes. And that is because of private equity.
[33:03]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[33:03]
Speaker 2
Who we need to talk about.
[33:06]
Speaker 1
I don't want to talk about private equity.
[33:08]
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[33:40]
Speaker 2
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Speaker 1
Full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com if you don't know about flyer deals on Instacart, this message is for you. Flyer deals are like strolling through your favorite store looking for deals, but you're scrolling your phone and maybe you're in bed because getting delivery doesn't mean you have to miss deals like you'd get at the store. Like the one creamer that doesn't make your stomach hurt. Or the pasta sauce you can't not buy when it's on sale. So download the Instacart app, shop flyers and never miss a deal on one of your fav favorites. Plus get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Instacart. We're here. Let's talk about Kermit. So Kermit was on Sesame street for a little bit of time. Kermit, he's not known for Sesame Street. He was a little bit there and. But this is the one. Sesame street is where he sang Being Green for the first time.
[34:52]
Speaker 2
It's not easy being green.
[34:53]
Speaker 1
It ain't easy to be green. It's just titled Being Green.
[34:55]
Speaker 2
Oh, being Green.
[34:55]
Speaker 1
But yeah, that's the first time that song ever came out. And it was really different for the time because it's a very introspective, somewhat like, melancholy song.
[35:05]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[35:06]
Speaker 1
And that you didn't really have those for kids. Kids songs were usually like, yeah, this is like a, a really, you know, melancholy song about being different. But it was a good message. So that was the first time that song got.
[35:17]
Speaker 2
It's also clearly a song about racism.
[35:19]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[35:20]
Speaker 2
And accepting yourself and, you know, just everything about that. And even, even Kermit, who is green, he's not white, he's not black, he's not yellow or red or brown or any other color. He's green. One we don't usually think of because people usually aren't. And even he still has problems.
[35:38]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[35:38]
Speaker 2
And even he still views it that way of all these different things. And it's, it's interesting. One thing that I, I find, especially from stuff from the 70s, even into the early 80s when, when artists were a little bit more artistic, especially with children's stuff, is that they would take a little bit more chances and actually trust that the kids would understand what the hell's happening. And even if the kids didn't understand, it wouldn't harm them.
[36:04]
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think a lot smarter than people give them credit for.
[36:07]
Speaker 2
Kids are a lot smarter. Not. They were. They are.
[36:09]
Speaker 1
I know. As I said.
[36:10]
Speaker 2
I know. I'm just saying in general, I'm not saying to you. I, I, I think they all kids are a lot smarter. And I think that if people have faith that a child can understand that they should at least attempt.
[36:21]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[36:22]
Speaker 2
And I think there's less, there's less chances that attempts these days because also, we're not making.
[36:26]
Speaker 1
Yeah, people don't make. Because all of the children's shows are crazy.
[36:31]
Speaker 2
No, it's because streamers.
[36:33]
Speaker 1
Okay, so also. Want to know a fun fact about Cookie Monster?
[36:36]
Speaker 2
I do want to know a fun. Tell me the funnest fact about cookie monster.
[36:40]
Speaker 1
In 1973, C is for Cookie was sung by Cookie Monster for the first time. Now, this is a very popular song in our household.
[36:48]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[36:48]
Speaker 1
I'll tell you what. C is for Cookie.
[36:49]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[36:49]
Speaker 1
Top. Top 10 hit. Guess what?
[36:51]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[36:52]
Speaker 1
Five years later, it actually became a huge disco hit because this dj, DJ Larry Lavon, made a remix of CS for Cookie in his disco clubs, and it became like a, like in the top 10 of disco.
[37:08]
Speaker 2
It was like a banger. Yeah, it was a club banger.
[37:10]
Speaker 1
It was a club banger.
[37:11]
Speaker 2
C is for Cookie is a club banger.
[37:13]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[37:13]
Speaker 2
Imagine rails of coke to C is.
[37:16]
Speaker 1
For Cookie naked on top of a horse.
[37:18]
Speaker 2
C is for cocaine. That's good enough for me. C is for cocaine. That's good. Do not clip that. That is only for the true fans who make it this deep into an episode.
[37:30]
Speaker 1
Also, Cookie Monsters cookies were originally made out of foam, so they would have that big explosion every time you ate them.
[37:35]
Speaker 2
Oh.
[37:35]
Speaker 1
But now they're not made of foam anymore. They're made out of a mixture of pancake mix, puffed rice, instant coffee. And the chips are just blobs of brown glue.
[37:45]
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, I know. He always just crushes them.
[37:48]
Speaker 1
He just crushes.
[37:49]
Speaker 2
It's just two hands smashing together.
[37:52]
Speaker 1
I know we watch a lot of cookies.
[37:53]
Speaker 2
I know we watch a lot of Cookie Monster. It's funny because C is for Cookie is one of those ones where it wasn't a song that actually. Out of all the Sesame street songs, that one didn't stick with me. As a kid.
[38:03]
Speaker 1
Oh, really?
[38:03]
Speaker 2
And you and like three other people in my life are the ones who brought up C is for Cookie later in life. And I was like, oh, I guess that's a pretty big one. And then it was like, oh. And then I noticed. I was like, oh, this is really like one of the more marketed songs.
[38:18]
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's a big one.
[38:20]
Speaker 2
It's.
[38:21]
Speaker 1
It's a big.
[38:21]
Speaker 2
It's a big one.
[38:22]
Speaker 1
I think. I think my fan of doing the Pigeon, which I was Rubber Ducky.
[38:25]
Speaker 2
Rubber Ducky.
[38:26]
Speaker 1
I was a. I'm a Burt Stan. There's a Burt Stan household over here.
[38:30]
Speaker 2
Mine was Rubber Ducky. You're the one.
[38:32]
Speaker 1
You make bath. I'm lots of fun.
[38:33]
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, but that was, I think, because I think. I'm pretty sure I had a rubber ducky. And I think we sang it in the bath. And so I think that's the one that stuck.
[38:40]
Speaker 1
I started collecting the rubber duckies because of the Jeep culture.
[38:43]
Speaker 2
Yes.
[38:44]
Speaker 1
But I don't know if I've said this on the pod yet is. I've decided that as part of my evil villain origin story, I'm gonna start leaving ducks on all different cars to ruin Jeep culture. Because I saw a really racist Jeep not too long ago and I said, I'm gonna ruin your culture for you.
[38:58]
Speaker 2
And it was covered in ducks.
[38:59]
Speaker 1
It had ducks and a lot of other had fucked up shit on it too. And I said, you know, I'm going to do. I'm going to go leave a duck on a. On a Pontiac.
[39:07]
Speaker 2
Hey, this is the Jim Henson episode. Let's not talk about racist Jeeps, okay? Let's bring it back to the Jim.
[39:14]
Speaker 1
Henson and my vendetta.
[39:17]
Speaker 2
Yeah, let's dial back in to Jim.
[39:21]
Speaker 1
Buying bulk rubber ducks. Tony VON Sedans. Leave them on beige sedans. I'm going to ruin it so that only the oldest people, the oldest people in the world, the people that make doctor's appointments at 8am Just so they can ruin traffic every morning. Those people, beige Buicks are going to have a collection of little rubber ducks. They won't understand why they're there, but they're going to do it. They're going to move their tissue boxes and put duck rubber. They'll put them in the back.
[39:47]
Speaker 2
They'll put them in the back window.
[39:48]
Speaker 1
Because they'll put them in the back.
[39:49]
Speaker 2
Next to the Beanie Baby, which is.
[39:51]
Speaker 1
Going to cause a distraction, maybe a car accident or two. But this is what I'm gonna do because I got so mad at One Jeep. Mm.
[39:58]
Speaker 2
One Jeep.
[39:59]
Speaker 1
One Jeep.
[39:59]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[40:00]
Speaker 1
And I'm ruining the culture. I've decided.
[40:01]
Speaker 2
Yeah. Hashtag not all Jeeps.
[40:04]
Speaker 1
So Sesame street was really, really successful.
[40:09]
Speaker 2
Yes.
[40:09]
Speaker 1
But Jim Henson personally felt pretty trapped there. It only showed, like, a part of his personality. And he had a lot of big fucking ideas.
[40:16]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[40:16]
Speaker 1
He wanted to do Broadway shows. He wanted to open a nightclub. He wanted to do. He had this idea for like a. An adult themed theater act with Muppets. It was like a. What? Kooky, crazy stuff.
[40:26]
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's also one of those things we have to keep reminding. I think we did. When? A lot of times now when we say adult.
[40:33]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[40:34]
Speaker 2
It means porno.
[40:35]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[40:36]
Speaker 2
It's not what it meant back then. No, it was just like, hey, there's stuff that's clearly for children and then there's stuff for everybody else is kind of the idea of adult. Now we break up everybody into these cohorts. So you have like, you know, we. They didn't have TV Y7, you know, or PG. Like, they didn't have the rating system back then. You had stuff that was either for everyone or it was X. Yeah. And I think that's kind of, especially in America, that's kind of broken our brains over like, oh, we're gonna have an adult conversation. Oh, you guys are gonna talk about.
[41:06]
Speaker 1
Whoa.
[41:07]
Speaker 2
No, we're gonna talk about tax 401ks. Yeah. No child wants to hear about that. So there's like a difference between, like, stuff that isn't designed to entertain a child.
[41:17]
Speaker 1
Bluey tackles fro in case oh, my God, bummer episode.
[41:20]
Speaker 2
You know what? It would. It would probably help a lot of people right now.
[41:23]
Speaker 1
So he. He has all these big ideas. He's leaving. He's. He doesn't leave Sesame Street. He just doesn't become his top priority.
[41:32]
Speaker 2
Right.
[41:32]
Speaker 1
And he goes on to create this. Direct and create the show called Sex and Violence, which is just the opposite end of this. The. The pendulum swung the other way. He was like, I don't make just kids shows. Look at sex and Violence. And it was a half hour variety show. It was a Muppets parody of sex and violence on television, hosted by Sam the Eagle and Floyd Pepper, which was the bassist from the Muppet Band. And it was a pageant based on the seven deadly Sins. Some of the sketches included Mount Rushmore. The stone presidents are trading jokes, a wrestling match in which the San Francisco earthquake displays his winning tactics, and Statler and Waldorf sit in the dentist office.
[42:17]
Speaker 2
Yeah, so I actually have seen this. Yeah. Yeah. Because I have the Muppet Shows season one on dvd and it came with the. It was like, oh, my God. And the. The secret pilot no one's ever seen.
[42:28]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[42:29]
Speaker 2
Back when DVDs were huge and they were like, we gotta throw something extra in there. Also, they won't buy it now. They're like, no, but I watched it. It's all right.
[42:37]
Speaker 1
It's not the best, but it's not that.
[42:38]
Speaker 2
It. It had. It doesn't hit the. They had to hit the stride. But you can kind of see what they're beginning to go for. It opens with the. That mad bomber character walking out and blowing up the entire screen.
[42:48]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[42:49]
Speaker 2
But it has that experimental feel of. And them kind of like figuring out who everybody is.
[42:55]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[42:55]
Speaker 2
They also. It doesn't have Kermit. They tried to bring in. They made this orange. He loves orange.
[43:00]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[43:00]
Speaker 2
They brought an orange frog. That's this other thing. But yes, Sam the Eagle is like a center character on it.
[43:06]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[43:06]
Speaker 2
And it's very much like he loves Sam the Eagle.
[43:10]
Speaker 1
Jim Henson.
[43:11]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[43:11]
Speaker 1
There's something like the character of Sam the Eagle is like this ultra patriotic American eagle, but it also, like, he doesn't understand. He's a hypocrite when he's, like, talking. And it's so funny because there's certain jokes that Sam the Eagle makes. I remember one time he went on this, like, rant rallying against the efforts of protecting endangered wildlife, only to be informed that he is endangered wildlife. So, like, he plays this, like, very consistent, conservative guy who doesn't realize that he needs the help of things, but is a patriot.
[43:41]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[43:42]
Speaker 1
It's very on the nose for times like these.
[43:46]
Speaker 2
Yeah. No, Sam the Eagle's always been one of those, like, I remember as a kid in the 80s and the 90s, being like, oh, Sam the Eagle is a. Is a reaction to, like, the Reagan eras.
[43:56]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[43:56]
Speaker 2
And then finding out later. No, no, it's a reaction to the Nixon and the Johnson eras.
[43:59]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[44:00]
Speaker 2
Oh, oh, oh.
[44:02]
Speaker 1
So anyway, after sex and violence, he has a talk with Lorne Michaels and he. Lorne Michaels wants to give the Muppets a shot on Saturday Night Live. It was the first season of snl, the live weekly sketch comedy. Maybe wasn't the right fit, specifically because Jim and his team couldn't write any jokes.
[44:24]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[44:24]
Speaker 1
The regulations imposed by the Writers Guild of America said only people employed as writers for Saturday Night Live were allowed to write sketches. So all the sketches had to be written by the writers and the writers and the actors on SNL didn't like the Muppets. They didn't like the Muppets they had or whatever. So, like, the writing assignments for Muppet sketches were given to staff as a penalty for being the least, like, among. Among the production team, and writers referred to them as the mucking puppets. That was like, insider, like, oh, you got the mucking puppets this week.
[44:57]
Speaker 2
Yeah. And because they just had that SNL movie came out.
[45:01]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[45:01]
Speaker 2
And, like, I didn't realize actually about, like, that whole thing.
[45:04]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[45:05]
Speaker 2
Until in the SNL movie, one of the trailers, there's, like, a whole thing where, like, Jim, like, the guy playing Jim Henson, like, walks in. They all just start acting like an asshole to him.
[45:13]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[45:13]
Speaker 2
I was like, how are you going to act an asshole, Jim Henson? And then slowly, like, oh, yeah. Because these are all, like. These are all cocaine addicts.
[45:20]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Drug addicts.
[45:22]
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's. It's the.
[45:25]
Speaker 1
Who think they're the coolest.
[45:26]
Speaker 2
It's the late 70s, and these are the coolest Canadians that have ever lived.
[45:29]
Speaker 1
Lived. Yep.
[45:30]
Speaker 2
And they're all like, you do puppets? You do. You're doing puppets.
[45:33]
Speaker 1
Dude, I'm taking this seriously. Wait till you see my hamburger sketch. It's definitely gonna age well.
[45:39]
Speaker 2
I. Listen, Listen to me, all right? My character, I am Chevy Chase, and I fall down. And that over here is Jim Belushi. And we can't even show what the samurai does anymore. You can.
[45:55]
Speaker 1
And, okay, most of the sketches, you can't really.
[45:57]
Speaker 2
There's a lot of sketches that don't. They don't a lot of stuff. Age is different, so we're just gonna say different. Some of us didn't age at all. Overdoses.
[46:08]
Speaker 1
Whoa, whoa. You're talking about bad plastic surgery.
[46:11]
Speaker 2
No.
[46:12]
Speaker 1
So Sesame street demonstrated the.
[46:14]
Speaker 2
Hold on, wait. That last segment was not about Gildan Laradner.
[46:17]
Speaker 1
Whoa. What the fuck?
[46:18]
Speaker 2
Gildner Adnir. We love you.
[46:20]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[46:20]
Speaker 2
All right.
[46:21]
Speaker 1
Okay.
[46:22]
Speaker 2
I just want to be clear.
[46:23]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[46:23]
Speaker 2
The rest of you, though. Yes, we know what you did.
[46:27]
Speaker 1
So Sesame street demonstrated that the.
[46:29]
Speaker 2
Wait, am I starting a feud with snl?
[46:31]
Speaker 1
No, no, I don't want to know. We're starting a feud with old SNL people.
[46:37]
Speaker 2
Yeah, we're sorry. 50 years ago.
[46:39]
Speaker 1
Chevy Chase. Who? Nobody likes that guy.
[46:41]
Speaker 2
Yeah, nobody likes Chevy.
[46:42]
Speaker 1
Come on.
[46:42]
Speaker 2
Yeah, you know what? Chevy Chase? Enemy of the Pod.
[46:45]
Speaker 1
Enemy of the Pod.
[46:46]
Speaker 2
Actually, that's always been true. We just never said it. I never liked Chevy Chase.
[46:50]
Speaker 1
Yeah, of course not.
[46:51]
Speaker 2
But, yeah, I've seen some of the sketches from the SNL Muppet years.
[46:53]
Speaker 1
They're not great. They're not great because the writers hated them.
[46:56]
Speaker 2
The writers hated them. But also it's. Again, it's one of those things where early SNL also tries a lot of different stuff until they kind of figure out what their formula is.
[47:04]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[47:05]
Speaker 2
If you go back and watch season one and season two of snl, like, you can see them. Like, there's. There's sketches that aren't like, are purposely not funny.
[47:12]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[47:13]
Speaker 2
They have like dramatic pieces that are mixed in there. They have these other segments where there. It really is supposed to be experimental television. Now, when you watch snl, you have a cold open. You have the monologue, you have two or three sketches. You then have the musical act. You then have Weekend Update. You have one or two more sketches, musical act, one more sketch, close. That is the show. That's all. That's just the show. Now, back then, they would change it up a lot and so you would have. We're going to throw to this, like, weird segment of this guy or we're going to do this thing over here. We're going to try all this different stuff out. Like, Weekend Update is something that they figured out and invented. Like, these are all different things that like our trial and so like the Muppets coming in and like trying out and not working fine.
[47:58]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[47:59]
Speaker 2
There's a lot of stuff that was happened on SNL that tried out and didn't work out.
[48:02]
Speaker 1
Yeah. And Jim Henson didn't care.
[48:04]
Speaker 2
Jim Henson didn't care.
[48:05]
Speaker 1
He also, like, didn't leave with a bad taste in his mouth. He like, still liked it wasn't if.
[48:09]
Speaker 2
You know what, here's the thing. If it had been his first experience with television, then, yeah, he probably would have had a problem with it.
[48:13]
Speaker 1
But it was doing it since high school.
[48:15]
Speaker 2
He was a 20 year vet.
[48:17]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[48:17]
Speaker 2
He showed up and he's like, what are we doing? How's your setup? And like, they were like, oh, man, this is my first time on tv. All right, shut up. Okay.
[48:25]
Speaker 1
I've been selling dog food for a decade.
[48:27]
Speaker 2
All right, Dan Aykroyd, if this doesn't go well, you lose your visa.
[48:31]
Speaker 1
Whoa, man. You're. Are you. It's because you're jealous that they about their elections. They're having a good time up there.
[48:36]
Speaker 2
Yeah, they're having a good.
[48:37]
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[49:07]
Speaker 2
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[49:08]
Speaker 1
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[49:50]
Speaker 2
And aim for a wider audience, not for little kids.
[49:53]
Speaker 1
Is rejecting him. All the big abc, NBC, cbs, they're all like, no, we're not doing.
[49:59]
Speaker 2
And a big part of it's because Sesame Street's so special, successful. And at this point now it's like he was like, oh, yeah, we'll make a thing for kids. And then they're like, well, that's because kids love puppets and puppets are only for kids.
[50:09]
Speaker 1
And he's like, God damn it, everybody likes puppets.
[50:11]
Speaker 2
No, the puppets are for everybody.
[50:13]
Speaker 1
Everybody likes them. So he does end up getting backed by a London based television producer named Lou Grade. Lord Lou Grade and Jim and his whole team moved to London to begin the production of the Muppet Show. And the Muppet Show. I don't know if you know, this was incredibly successful. Yeah, it springboarded Henson into celebrity status. Henson became a celebrity, not like Mr. Rogers. He was like a rock star, but with puppets. And the TV show was so successful, it spawned feature films and made Henson even more well known. And we were talking about this, like, when we were watching the documentary of like, Jim Henson, like, goes through this period of time where like when success hits, it's like in 1979. Ish. It's like the top of the 80s and he just has like this like 80s money moment where he's just living that lifestyle and he goes to this period where he wears all white, like head to toe white. He decides he believes in reincarnation. He's like getting into lots of different, like, types of religious ideologies.
[51:21]
Speaker 2
It's that it's a hippie to yuppie moment.
[51:23]
Speaker 1
He becomes a white meat vegetarian, which I had to google.
[51:25]
Speaker 2
What? Wait, what?
[51:27]
Speaker 1
A white meat vegetarian is veteran that eats chicken.
[51:30]
Speaker 2
That's it. That's it. They only white meats.
[51:32]
Speaker 1
They only white meats.
[51:33]
Speaker 2
Okay, so that and what, like certain types of fish?
[51:36]
Speaker 1
Yeah, fish. But then there's always the rebranding. That's like pork, the other white meat. And I'm like, was this because of the 80s?
[51:41]
Speaker 2
What's that? Oh, my God.
[51:42]
Speaker 1
I don't know.
[51:43]
Speaker 2
Is it still a thing?
[51:44]
Speaker 1
I don't think it's still thing. You think vegans would allow such a thing as white meat vegetarian?
[51:48]
Speaker 2
I need to know. I just need to know what? I just, I'm. I'm trying to like, there's got to be. We got to bring this back.
[51:54]
Speaker 1
So we'll look it up.
[51:55]
Speaker 2
No, we got to bring it back. We got to bring it back. It's. It is so insane. I have never. Like, why, why would you. Okay, why would you want to cross brand vegetarianism to add meat in there?
[52:08]
Speaker 1
I don't.
[52:09]
Speaker 2
This had to have come up. You know what? This had to have been a marketing guy. Yeah, a marketing guy had to have come in big chicken, be like, we're losing a lot, these vegetarians. How much we lose it? 1 to 2%.
[52:18]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[52:19]
Speaker 2
White meat vegetarians.
[52:20]
Speaker 1
Yeah, you could be vegetarian. You know what it was? It was somebody's grandma who's found out they were vegetarian. Like, oh, so you can eat chicken. It's that, it's. Oh, yeah, that's from my Big Big Fat Greek Wedding. That line.
[52:31]
Speaker 2
Holotarianism.
[52:33]
Speaker 1
No, we don't have that.
[52:34]
Speaker 2
I know, but I'm saying if that's what. That's just a name.
[52:37]
Speaker 1
Also, he became really infatuated with sports cars at this time and started buying himself sports cars. And actually Lou Gray, the producer guy, bought him a sports car as a gift, which was a green Lotus. And they had the headlights painted. Look like Kermit the Frog's eyes.
[52:55]
Speaker 2
That's pretty badass.
[52:56]
Speaker 1
Yeah, it was pretty cool. So that is also Jim Henson, zip. Zapping around London in a two seater sports car that looks like Kermit the Frog is iconic.
[53:04]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[53:04]
Speaker 1
It's also the kind of behavior I like in the 80s.
[53:07]
Speaker 2
Yeah. But this is also At a time. Again, this is before. I think this is right around or right before John Lennon got shot.
[53:12]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[53:13]
Speaker 2
So it's like, yeah, look at me. Everybody noticed me. I'm famous. I'm famous in the street. Everybody noticed me. And it's like, John Lennon got shot. And I was like, nobody looked this direction. Yeah. Suddenly, hey, get a car that isn't Kermit. Can I not drive the Kermit car everywhere?
[53:26]
Speaker 1
No. Thank you.
[53:27]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[53:29]
Speaker 1
Oh, also, I wrote myself a note here, because I remember I had a memory pop into my head while I was writing this episode, which is years and years ago. I was bartending, and this woman, older woman, had come in, and she was dressed in all black, and she had this incredible brooch of Statler and Waldorf. Like, a brooch, and it was so crazy and big and, like, I was like, oh, my God, that's so cool. Where did you get that? And she was like, it was a gift from a family member of Jim Henson. And I was like, yo, what? That's crazy. And so I immediately start fawning over her and the brooch. I'm like, what do you mean? That's so cool, Bubba. And she introduced herself. Her name was Bonnie Erickson, and she's actually the woman who designed and created Statler and Waldorf. She was one of the. The seamstresses and puppeteers that worked with Jim Henson.
[54:23]
Speaker 2
Oh, wow.
[54:23]
Speaker 1
And so I was like. I was just, like, making drinks. And when I tell you I paid for every drink she had that night, I was just like, I've met in my bartending years a lot of celebrities, but when I tell you, this older lady, I think she might have had a cane. Like, she was an older woman, sat at my bar. I think she was there for, like, a birthday party or something with, like, a family friend. And I was like, you are the queen of my life. Like, I. I waited on Bruce Willis, and I was like, yeah, whatever, you. Dude, Kevin Bacon, go yourself. The Tony go. Yo. Mark Wahlberg can go himself. I mean that. All the way top to toes. I mean that.
[55:03]
Speaker 2
But he has an app for heaven.
[55:05]
Speaker 1
He needs it because he committed a hate crime.
[55:08]
Speaker 2
This is an episode about Jim Henson.
[55:10]
Speaker 1
Anyway, so there's also. Okay, so again, talking about the popularity, the celebrities at this time are going crazy trying to get on the Muppet Show. Yeah, getting on the Muppet Shows. A big deal. There's a finite amount of episodes, and there's only one celebrity each episode. So everybody wants on. Yeah, because it's like a rocket ship. Going off without Katy Perry.
[55:28]
Speaker 2
Well, it's like the Muppets or snl. Yeah, it's like that's kind of. And there was a lot more variety shows back then. So it was when you. When you had a hit, you then did the circuit.
[55:36]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[55:36]
Speaker 2
And one of the big ones is the Muppets. Because also you would then be not only popular, like if you do SNL. Okay, cool. The 20 year old see you.
[55:44]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[55:45]
Speaker 2
But if you do the Muppets, everybody's seeing you. You're on a prime time. The kids are watching you with their parents. You're a full celebrity.
[55:53]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Because the jokes would go over the kids heads.
[55:55]
Speaker 2
The jokes are going over the kids heads. The parents are getting them. But really, again, it's the grandparents through. The little kids are watching. It's safe for everybody.
[56:02]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[56:03]
Speaker 2
And it's just this. But it's also like. It's a little alternative.
[56:06]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[56:07]
Speaker 2
It's a little cheeky. It's got some little notes here and there. So it had that thing where it's just. It's just kind of sliding underneath.
[56:14]
Speaker 1
There's. I had a great story here from Ethel Merman.
[56:17]
Speaker 2
Ethel Merman.
[56:18]
Speaker 1
Ethel Merman. She was on the Muppet Show.
[56:20]
Speaker 2
Okay.
[56:21]
Speaker 1
And she was wearing a very uncomfortable dress with lots of feathers on it. And David Lassner, he's the producer that would like, woo. Woo them all.
[56:28]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[56:29]
Speaker 1
He went up to her at one point and was like, do we need to give you a different outfit or something? Because, like, she was behaving like she was very uncomfortable. And she was. And she says, david, look, if Jim Henson wants me to wear a feather in my ass, I'll wear a feather in my ass.
[56:47]
Speaker 2
Picturing Ethel Merman saying, that's very funny.
[56:49]
Speaker 1
And I was like, you know what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever you need.
[56:53]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[56:54]
Speaker 1
Jim Henson decides to end the Muppet show after an incredible successful run. And.
[56:59]
Speaker 2
Which is crazy.
[57:00]
Speaker 1
Just crazy. He did that thing where he stopped doing the thing while it was still great.
[57:04]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[57:04]
Speaker 1
So that nobody had to watch the slow decline.
[57:06]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[57:07]
Speaker 1
And you. And then the last season ruined everything. Game of Thrones, Wow.
[57:11]
Speaker 2
I can't believe you'd say that about the Simpsons.
[57:13]
Speaker 1
Oh, I didn't. Okay.
[57:15]
Speaker 2
No, you're not following my joke. We could have kept going on other shows that did this. No, now. Now it's on cable. It's four seasons. I think the opposite. Max, three. Well, four is. Is because at the fifth season, they have to pay everybody more.
[57:29]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[57:30]
Speaker 2
Netflix does two.
[57:31]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[57:32]
Speaker 2
Because on the second season, that pay I don't think his was paying, though. I think from listening with Jim.
[57:36]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[57:37]
Speaker 2
It seems like he just gets bored.
[57:39]
Speaker 1
He just gets bored.
[57:40]
Speaker 2
He.
[57:40]
Speaker 1
He's. He's got all these creative ideas, and he just gets bored. And he doesn't want to, like, stick.
[57:45]
Speaker 2
Himself in, but he also doesn't like to hand it off, which is what's crazy.
[57:48]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[57:50]
Speaker 2
What's crazy? Because he. He's. He's definitely a control freak in some of these ways, because when we're watching a documentary, he's filming the Muppets, and then he still goes back and then does Sesame Street. During this whole time, he's being Kurt. I mean, Kermit, he's Rolf. He's also Ernie.
[58:08]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[58:08]
Speaker 2
He's all these other characters over on Sesame Street.
[58:11]
Speaker 1
He has to fly home to see his family. Like, we haven't even talked about that.
[58:14]
Speaker 2
Five kids.
[58:15]
Speaker 1
He had five kids with his wife.
[58:16]
Speaker 2
Who owned half the production company, who lives just up. Just north of New York.
[58:21]
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think she lives in upstate New York area.
[58:23]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[58:23]
Speaker 1
And so we fly home from London all the time.
[58:26]
Speaker 2
Yep.
[58:27]
Speaker 1
He was a busy man.
[58:28]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[58:28]
Speaker 1
With a lot of ideas. And then. So.
[58:30]
Speaker 2
But I'm saying, with all this different stuff happening all at the same exact time, it's like. It's very clear as you go through these timelines, if a thing is successful, great. He's gonna do it until he's done with it.
[58:42]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[58:43]
Speaker 2
Until he feels like he's. He's wrenched out as much potential of it. And then he's. He'll get ideas for a new thing and goes, okay, I don't want to. I don't want to risk these ideas on this thing. This thing's done. And he pushes that to the side. And then he starts a new thing and then does it again.
[58:59]
Speaker 1
Love that.
[59:00]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[59:01]
Speaker 1
So he. After the Muppets show ends, he goes and starts working on a movie idea he had called Dark Crystal, and that leads in the Labyrinth, both of which he worked with George. George Lucas on.
[59:16]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[59:16]
Speaker 1
So as a Labyrinth kid myself.
[59:19]
Speaker 2
You Love Labyrinth.
[59:20]
Speaker 1
Love 11th. I'm not a Dark Crystal gal.
[59:22]
Speaker 2
No. And we talked about this before. I. Neither of us, really.
[59:25]
Speaker 1
I get it. I understand why people like.
[59:27]
Speaker 2
I.
[59:28]
Speaker 1
It's just not. For me.
[59:29]
Speaker 2
It. There's been so many. I think, for me, because I didn't see Dark Crystal when it initially had its run. During that time, there's so many people who have been inspired by Dark Crystal and who have learned from it, and maybe that was their first touch of fantasy or like that type of fantasy who then did their own project.
[59:47]
Speaker 1
Yeah. They made the Fifth Element.
[59:48]
Speaker 2
Yeah, they made a fifth Element. Or they made many different things like that. Who. They have those general ideas. Seeing their derivation from that, the derivative thing that came from that. That's what I like more. So then when I go back, it's like dark crystal. There's a basic part of it and things like that that I just don't.
[60:05]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[60:05]
Speaker 2
Doesn't click for me.
[60:06]
Speaker 1
No, it's okay.
[60:07]
Speaker 2
Also, I need to explain it.
[60:09]
Speaker 1
Okay.
[60:09]
Speaker 2
I need to explain it because people really value my taste.
[60:12]
Speaker 1
That's true. And I appreciate your explanation. So that in a way that's very condescending. What? Dark Crystal Labyrinth. And then he also starts Fraggle Rock, baby. Oh, my God. Fraggle Rock. So we get Fraggle Rock where the doozers do a doozers do. He also, in this time, helps create the Muppet Babies.
[60:34]
Speaker 2
Yep. Well, the Muppet Babies are a spin off from the Muppet. One of the Muppet movies.
[60:39]
Speaker 1
Yes.
[60:40]
Speaker 2
And the Muppet Babies are the most massive thing they ever did.
[60:43]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Financially crazy.
[60:45]
Speaker 2
It's the craziest.
[60:47]
Speaker 1
Well, growing up, like, I was obsessed with the Muff Babies.
[60:49]
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, it was a cartoon.
[60:50]
Speaker 1
I had the sheets, I had the blankets.
[60:52]
Speaker 2
It was a cartoon. It was very easy to sell to kids. It was a Saturday morning cartoon.
[60:57]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Also because there was. There was a few episodes in Muppet Babies where the babies would reenact scenes from Star wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark because fucking Jim would call his buddy Lucas and Spielberg and he just got basic handshakes.
[61:14]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[61:14]
Speaker 1
To be like, yeah, you can do that. And that's why you can't watch reruns on Disney because Disney refuses to pay the rights.
[61:21]
Speaker 2
Oh. To have to run those.
[61:22]
Speaker 1
To run those specific episodes.
[61:24]
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's crazy too, because when you. If you go back and watch the intro, it's like the TIE fighters are swooping down. Because in it, the Muppet Babies have these imaginary. Imaginary playdate moments.
[61:34]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[61:34]
Speaker 2
With each other. And they're like, oh, yeah, we're doing Star wars now. Yeah.
[61:37]
Speaker 1
So crazy. Like, probably just called him on his brick of a cell phone.
[61:41]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[61:41]
Speaker 1
And was like, yo, let me. Let me just do Star Wars. And. And Lucas was like, yeah, can we make merch? This whole movie's based on merch.
[61:48]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[61:49]
Speaker 1
It's an anti capitalist movie. It's about selling merch. So the Jim Henson Creature Shop is created around this time. And so I made a little short list of some of the movies that Jim Henson and the Muppet Creature, or the Creature Shop worked on. Okay, so obviously there's the Witches. One of my favorite scary movies when I was little, I really didn't eat chocolate for a year after watching that movie because I thought I would turn into a mouse. The English Patient. George of the Jungle. The Snuggle Bear from the commercials. Snuggle Bear. The Hamburger Helper glove.
[62:28]
Speaker 2
That is. That's a Muppet.
[62:29]
Speaker 1
It's a Muppet.
[62:30]
Speaker 2
Hamburger Helper is a Muppet.
[62:32]
Speaker 1
It's a Muppet production.
[62:34]
Speaker 2
He's a marpet.
[62:35]
Speaker 1
A marpet. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, The Dinosaur Show. These are all from the dinosaurs.
[62:42]
Speaker 2
I didn't know because I think that was a Jim Henson production. For those of you guys who. Hold on.
[62:46]
Speaker 1
Friday Night at Freddy's. I didn't watch that. But people like that, right?
[62:49]
Speaker 2
Five nights at Freddy's. That one, That's a Jim Henson Muppet.
[62:52]
Speaker 1
That's. That's part of the market. So.
[62:54]
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. I mean, yeah, it. It's the. The shop. They'll make whoever.
[62:59]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[62:59]
Speaker 2
You come in, you can just hire them.
[63:01]
Speaker 1
Exactly. That's what I mean.
[63:02]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[63:02]
Speaker 1
These are not canonically Muppets. They're made of the same team that. Well, the team that exists now.
[63:09]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[63:10]
Speaker 1
Also, guess what a funny little note I found about my. One of my top favorite Muppet movies, My number one Christmas movie, A Muppet Christmas Carol. We always joke that the reason that movie is so great is because Michael Caine plays it so straight.
[63:26]
Speaker 2
He plays it straight.
[63:27]
Speaker 1
He plays it so straight.
[63:28]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[63:29]
Speaker 1
Which is why it's so funny.
[63:30]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[63:32]
Speaker 1
Michael Caine only agreed to do the Muppet Christmas Carol because he wanted to make a movie that his daughter could watch because he had never made any movie that he could watch with his seven year old daughter.
[63:43]
Speaker 2
Oh.
[63:43]
Speaker 1
And I was like, what a funny movie.
[63:47]
Speaker 2
He plays the mean old man.
[63:51]
Speaker 1
He's like, this one's for my kid.
[63:52]
Speaker 2
You're like, whoa, you're playing Scrooge. Whoa, I'm playing Scrooge. Playing Scrooge for the children from ancient.
[64:00]
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Speaker 1
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Speaker 2
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[65:16]
Speaker 2
Yep.
[65:18]
Speaker 1
And so, yeah, that's a big part of it. He goes on to really deal for years with licensing. He starts to get into a deal with Disney he wants to set. He's always had this idea for amusement parks and nightclubs.
[65:33]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[65:33]
Speaker 1
And he decides he wants to work with Disney to do nightclubs. Not nightclubs, I'm sorry, Like a big show, an interactive 3D show in Disney and kind of selling off certain rights to Disney. It's a whole thing. It's very stressful. But at this time, he's doing this Disney contract. He's making the movies, he's working with the puppet shop, he is doing licensing. He's getting big in the licensing stuff.
[65:58]
Advertiser
Stuff.
[65:59]
Speaker 1
And so he's super duper stressed out and working way too much, probably. And on May 16th of 1990, Jim Henson passes away at 1:20am his cause of death was a severe strep infection that damaged his internal organs and caused toxic shock syndrome. He was 53 years old.
[66:20]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[66:20]
Speaker 1
And, yeah, he had gotten a strip throat infection, I believe, while he was on a flight. Or like, people are like, he was. He was always traveling. He's always on planes. And so he just at some point got strep throat or. And then that infection wasn't taken care of and he ends up passing away from it.
[66:38]
Speaker 2
Yeah. And one of the documentaries we watched, they talked about, like, him having walking pneumonia and stuff like this a couple different times. And, like, he would just try to work through it. And he, like, ignored illnesses.
[66:47]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[66:48]
Speaker 2
Because again, he wouldn't go to the doctor.
[66:50]
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I wonder if that was from, like, the Christian Science upbringing. Of like, you don't. Your first thought isn't going to the doctor.
[66:56]
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[66:56]
Speaker 1
It's like, maybe it's your. Your very last chance of like, okay, I'll go to the hospital instead of.
[67:02]
Speaker 2
Like, by that point, it's too late.
[67:03]
Speaker 1
It's too late.
[67:03]
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. It. It's. It's one of those things. His death. It's. It's funny. I was thinking about it a lot because I knew we were going to do this episode. And as a kid, Jim Henson's death, he said 1990.
[67:16]
Speaker 1
Yeah, 1990.
[67:18]
Speaker 2
That's the first death I remember. Yeah, that's the first death I remember I was 6 years old, and I remembered hearing about it on the news because my parents would watch. We would always watch the CBS Evening News at the dinner table.
[67:34]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[67:34]
Speaker 2
So we'd have the TV on 6, 30. We would eat and we'd have the news on.
[67:39]
Speaker 1
You guys wouldn't talk to each other?
[67:40]
Speaker 2
No, not really.
[67:41]
Speaker 1
You just would stare at the tv.
[67:42]
Speaker 2
Well, we mostly watch the tv. We talked during commercials, but we would watch the news as we all sat there. And it was like our half hour ritual. We'd all sit there and eat and watch the news. And they. I think it was the end of the episode, like, they announced, Jim Henson died.
[67:57]
Speaker 1
How do you go to sleep after that?
[67:58]
Speaker 2
I remember. I. I don't remember my reaction after that. What I remember is the next day. The next day. I remember being at first grade grade, and I remember being outside. It was a very rainy day, and I had to go outside for something, and it was like a drizzly gray, just very dark day. And I remember just looking at this bush and thinking that, like, I'm like, where. Where does Jim Hen. What. What do we do without Jim Henson?
[68:27]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[68:28]
Speaker 2
And I was 6, and I just remember being like, cuz, like Jim Henson at that point. I had. I had tapes with him on it. He had come out. He started doing more of the Walt Disney thing because Jim Henson storytellers and all these other things he started doing in the. In the later 80s where he was becoming more camera forward.
[68:46]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[68:46]
Speaker 2
To talk more about the art and the shop and like, all these new interesting things that we can do. And so he liked to shoot more things of him with Kermit and him with the new CGI stuff and, like, him talking about the future and this beautiful world that could be in front of us and all these things. I just kept like, thinking, I'm like, well, are they still gonna have Muppets? Like, yeah, Much like Walt Disney, much like other people. He really had this sense that the entire organization was him. And it was. Wasn't true. There are. There's still other things, but I think for certain projects that could have gotten a chance to come back, like the Muppets themselves.
[69:31]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[69:31]
Speaker 2
It's been pretty clear that unless somebody steps forward and actually grabs just straight up the Muppets from the Muppet show, it's very difficult to keep them going.
[69:40]
Speaker 1
Yeah, I have the link. I guess we should put it in the show. Notes for the video of his funeral. It's impossible to watch without crying. It's. You walk downstairs. I was watching it as I was doing my research at a table, and you were sobbing.
[69:56]
Speaker 2
And I said, what happened? And I immediately thought something. Okay, I wanna let you guys know, this was yesterday. So it was April 28, 2025. It was around 1pm I come downstairs. Mrs. P is at our dining room table staring at a laptop, sobbing. I'm just like, what happened? And she was like, kermit. Big Bird just sang It's Not Easy Being Green. And I'm like, what? Big Bird. Just saying, it's not Easy. Green. Green. And then he said, I miss you, Kermit. And she's like, yeah. And I'm like, why are you watching this right now? She's like, I had to do it for the show. But you didn't have to do it for the show. It is the most devastating. The Muppet. There are two devastating entertainment funerals. The one is Jim Henson's.
[70:42]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[70:43]
Speaker 2
And the other one that's also kind of difficult is the guy from Monty Python. What's his name? I can't believe I'm blanking on his name. Graham from Monty Python. Graham Chapman from Monty Python. He. He died young. I think he was, like, 40.
[71:02]
Speaker 1
Okay.
[71:02]
Speaker 2
And so he was the youngest of the Pythons to die. And so, again, it's a funny funeral.
[71:06]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[71:06]
Speaker 2
Which makes it harder.
[71:08]
Speaker 1
But listen, you know what's crazy is you could. Weeping at my laptop, at the dining room table, watching his funeral, laughing about the chicken part. I told you it was my favorite part.
[71:18]
Speaker 2
Yes.
[71:18]
Speaker 1
It's so. It's one of those things where you're laughing and crying. You're laughing and crying. And, like, Jim Henson knows how to do that laugh. He basically wrote out his entire ceremony to his kids in a letter. You can read the letter. They have it posted.
[71:31]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[71:31]
Speaker 1
But, like, even when in anything that has to do with Jim Henson, this is going to happen. Our friends that got married had a Muppet theme wedding.
[71:39]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[71:39]
Speaker 1
Remember? And we all sang. Oh, my God. Weeping, crying, laughing. Yeah, it's just like it's his niche. Weeping, crying, laughing.
[71:47]
Speaker 2
Well, it's also one of those things.
[71:48]
Speaker 1
Where you're allowed to be happy and sad.
[71:49]
Speaker 2
No. Well, it's one of those things where. Where we have disconnected. We've come. Compartmentalize our emotions. Emotions exist on a spectrum, and nobody wants to deal with that. We've. We compartmentalize it, which is the reason why so many psychos have been able to step into some of these spaces by compartmentalizing and not living in a space where you can be happy and sad, you can be laughing and crying. Because by having the juxtaposition, you have people who are like, he's a comedian. He only can do laughter. If you look at somebody like Robin Williams, Robin Williams did drama, so that way Robin Williams can understand comedy. Yeah, Robin Williams did comedy, so he can understand drama. When you look at all these different people, when you look at Jim Henson. I know you mentioned Frank Oz. Another one that I want to shout out who's really big is Richard Hunt, who a lot of people forget often, but Richard Hunt was a puppeteer on the show who. Who came in. He was another one who walked in as almost a kid, a young guy, and was just like, hey, what are you guys doing? I heard you're hiring for Sesame Street. And just, like, strolled in.
[72:51]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[72:51]
Speaker 2
He became Skeeter. He became all these different iconic characters on the show. But he was also openly gay in the 70s.
[73:00]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[73:00]
Speaker 2
He had friends who were dying of the AIDS crisis. And he's actually one of the people who was really. If you watch the Jim Henson funeral, he's the tall guy with the short gray hair, and he is actually kind of leading the Muppet Singers.
[73:16]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[73:16]
Speaker 2
He dies two years later of aids.
[73:18]
Speaker 1
Damn.
[73:19]
Speaker 2
And there's certain things when you go through what a lot of what they were doing because of the way they grew up in the 50s and the way because of television was, and the way because of self censorship, you ended up with a lot of people telling stories like the AIDS crisis, and a lot of people telling stories about being different, being hidden metaphors.
[73:45]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[73:46]
Speaker 2
That people could then understand. So then when you did meet somebody who was gay or you did hear about aids or you did deal with racism, it's not easy. Being green helps you understand these ideas.
[73:59]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[74:00]
Speaker 2
It's taking three or four steps back instead of being directly at it. And that's why you're seeing the attacks now on the Legacy of Jim Henson, Sesame street and others. Because fascist psychopaths know that if we can take three or four steps back and understand that the differences between us are actually our strength, that diversity is strength, they'll attack that exact phrase rather than look around and see what we get from our diversity.
[74:30]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[74:30]
Speaker 2
What actually makes us strong and what was a building block of this country and our world. And I think that, again, I had that strongman view of. Of the Muppets, where it was just Jim. But as I've grown up and as I've gotten older, you start to see more people. Frank Oz is a big one because of Miss Piggy and because of Yoda and because he became a director. But Richard Hunt was one that got called out. There is a. There was a YouTube documentary I saw about him that was, like, really incredible. But there's just so many other people inside the Muppet Shop and the Creature Studio and all these other people that are around. Jim's wife being a huge part of it.
[75:16]
Speaker 1
Yeah, she was. Then she got really busy because they had five kids.
[75:18]
Speaker 2
Yes.
[75:19]
Speaker 1
It's hard to do Muppets.
[75:20]
Speaker 2
What's her name again? I blanked on it.
[75:22]
Speaker 1
Oh, my God. Jane.
[75:23]
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, Jane. Jane or J. I remember. I remember.
[75:26]
Speaker 1
I don't even know where that part of the document is anymore.
[75:28]
Speaker 2
I remember it was a J. That was. That's why. But I. But I mean, it's. It's also one of those ones where. That's why I really liked about the documentary we watched, because. Because they don't. They don't erase her.
[75:38]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[75:39]
Speaker 2
She is there. Jim's allowed to travel and do these different things because Jane. Jane.
[75:47]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[75:48]
Speaker 2
But because Jane keeps the house centered.
[75:51]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[75:51]
Speaker 2
And also, like, there was just. You and I were talking about more and more. There's just so much. He. He's a. Jim Henson's a complicated man because of how many different things he wanted to do.
[76:02]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[76:03]
Speaker 2
But I think he's also a simple man because at the end of the day, everything he wants to do is art.
[76:10]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[76:11]
Speaker 2
Does that make sense?
[76:12]
Speaker 1
Absolutely. I was just thinking when you were talking about why they want to get rid of Sesame street and, like, defund it and all that stuff. And, like, before you were saying that, I was just thinking, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when you know that. That it was like a meme for a minute, like, what radicalized you? And I'm like. I can think of things that happened to me in my youth that radicalized me, but I'm also, like, I did grow up On a steady, thick diet of Sesame Street. In growing up in an area that looked like Sesame street, like, I grew up in row homes.
[76:45]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[76:45]
Speaker 1
So, like, my radicalization was just like, yeah, we're all people. And then I got out into the world, people are like, not behaving like we're all people. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I've been told by the Muppets that we're all people and people's as peoples. That's what the Muppets told me.
[76:58]
Speaker 2
Yeah. The people's is peoples people. That's part of the Muppet.
[77:00]
Speaker 1
That's the whole thing.
[77:01]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[77:01]
Speaker 1
And so I don't understand why you're acting like people's isn't peoples.
[77:04]
Speaker 2
But also, more importantly, with Sesame street, you know, the number one thing Sesame street showed people, especially back in the 70s, did not be afraid of cities.
[77:11]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[77:11]
Speaker 2
And what's the number one thing that we're hearing? Constantly pushed that cities are hell holes. And all these different things the Muppets, the Sesame street shows you of not only that cities like New York aren't scary, but also, here's all the things you can do inside of a city. You can go to the park, you can go to the zoo, you can go play baseball with intramural team. You can go to the. To the market and you can go talk to people of different nationalities. You can go to this part of the city and everyone over here is speaking Vietnamese. Because in this neighborhood, that's where they speak. And, oh, look, they have a special celebration that they do over here. It's all about celebrating the differences and explaining it to each other. Because in. In the idea of. Which is a very old idea. It's something Mark Twain talked about and all these different things. Fear exists in the idea of not knowing. Ignorance creates fear.
[78:01]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[78:01]
Speaker 2
And so the best way to keep people afraid so that way they'll only listen to you and your psychotic leader is to make sure that people are afraid of everyone so that way he can keep you safe. And from the people over there, the people over there are your neighbors. And as Fred Rogers said, won't you be my neighbor? And as Jim Henson said, it's just a rainbow.
[78:23]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Okay, listen, let's close up this episode, all right.
[78:26]
Speaker 2
Let's close up the episode with.
[78:27]
Speaker 1
I have a quote from Jim Henson.
[78:28]
Speaker 2
All right. Is it a rock and roll quote?
[78:30]
Speaker 1
It's not. It is. You know, it is rock and roll. Because last time we did an episode, I talked about my beliefs in rock and roll.
[78:36]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[78:37]
Speaker 1
And Punk rock.
[78:38]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[78:38]
Speaker 1
So this is the quote. At some point in my life, I decided, rightly or wrongly, that there are many situations in this life that I can't do much about. Acts of terrorism, terrorism, feelings of nationalistic prejudice, Cold War, etc. So what I should do is concentrate on the situations that my energy can affect. I believe that we can use television and film to be an influence for good, and that we can help to shape the thoughts of children and adults in a positive way. As it has turned out, I'm very proud of some of the work we've done, and I think we can do many more good things, because what positivity is punk rock.
[79:13]
Speaker 2
That's true.
[79:14]
Speaker 1
That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.
[79:15]
Speaker 2
Can I. I want to say a closing thought, because I told you yesterday, and for anybody made it this deep in the episode. Thanks. But it's.
[79:24]
Speaker 1
I made it this deep in the episode.
[79:25]
Speaker 2
I think it's a thing that I think about a lot. And when you're looking at the life of somebody like Jim Henson, many of us, and especially people who weren't even alive at the same time as him, we view them at the end product.
[79:39]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[79:40]
Speaker 2
We view, you know, Dark Crystal. We view Jim Henson Storytellers, which is a master, at the end.
[79:49]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[79:49]
Speaker 2
And we might pull out a sock and put a puppet, and we go, I'm not gonna make my thing.
[79:54]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[79:54]
Speaker 2
I'm not gonna make my little sock puppet show because no one will watch it. But you have to remember that Jim Henson started with a sock puppet show. And then he tested and he tried and he did things that are different, and he experimented with things, and he did. He tried stuff, and not all of them were successful.
[80:12]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Technically, Labyrinth was a huge failure.
[80:14]
Speaker 2
Labyrinth was a huge failure.
[80:16]
Speaker 1
And I'm like, that's still playing in the movies now. It's like a big thing. My cousin texts me, like, once a year and, like, you want to go see Labyrinth in the movies again? Like. Yeah.
[80:24]
Speaker 2
But I mean, saying Lab, which is a later failure, which he would. Even if. Even if the Labyrinth was the last thing he had done.
[80:29]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[80:29]
Speaker 2
He would still be considered success. Success because of the Muppets and because of Sesame Street. But I'm saying before Sesame street, when he's. He's out there, he's still just doing commercials.
[80:38]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[80:39]
Speaker 2
You know, he's doing these different things. Like, there. I know so many people who reach out to me in DMS or in emails, and they're like, how do I get started. I'm like, you just do?
[80:51]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[80:52]
Speaker 2
You just get started. And that's the. That's the hardest thing to do for Stand up. I had to get on stage one day for the podcast. At one point, we had to. We could come up what we wanted to do. At one point, we had to turn the mic on.
[81:07]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[81:08]
Speaker 2
And then once you turn the mic on, at one point, you have to post it. And you can only edit so long. And all of these different things are things that I think we get lost in us because we see somebody who is an artist, like Jim Henson, and like the people surrounding him and the massive team he builds up, and we think that, oh, I can make a puppet show that's the equivalent of the Muppets. And some people can. There are people who can do that.
[81:32]
Speaker 1
Avenue Q is great.
[81:34]
Speaker 2
But. But some of those people also, they're leaning on 50 years of the Muppets.
[81:41]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[81:42]
Speaker 2
And knowing what is possible.
[81:44]
Speaker 1
Exactly.
[81:44]
Speaker 2
And so if you have a dream, if you have an art, if you have a thing that you. You are trying to do, please do it. Just start doing it and post it. And. And like, that's. I think the part that's getting scarier for people is posting the art and posting the things that they enjoy doing. Because you're gonna get critiqued on the Internet. Yeah, but the sooner you post it, the. The. Oh, what? Okay, well, here we go. Here's my little puppet ship. Somebody writes, oh, I don't like that. Okay, well, I just did that. And they said they didn't like. Like that. I didn't spend 10 years working on this and then had one person say they didn't like that. I spent 15 seconds and they said they didn't like that. Okay, well, that guy over There's 2 comments from people saying that they did like that. Okay, now I'm gonna do 30 seconds of this and building it out from there. And I just. I just want you to know that there are more people like Jim Henson out there than there are people like the. That hang out in comment sections.
[82:45]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[82:45]
Speaker 2
And that they definitely don't hang out on comment sections like ours@pearlmania500.net where if you want to become a Patreon today, you can join. And if you want to get that shout out, you can hear that shout out on our weekly parasocial Patreon exclusive podcast where all Pearl Maniacs hang out the warm up. Ladies and gentlemen, all of they thems, all of our friends, I just want to say thank you so much for sticking around for this throwback deep dive episode that Mrs. P has put together. And we're going to have more of these deep dive episodes moving forward because the people want them, but we love doing them. And we just need that little lore dump. Don't we, Mrs. P?
[83:21]
Speaker 1
Absolutely.
[83:21]
Speaker 2
All right. Do you have any final words to say to people?
[83:24]
Speaker 1
Listen, this was a great episode. It was really fun to do. I got to go take a walk through memory lane.
[83:30]
Speaker 2
And you got to buy a very expensive magazine.
[83:32]
Speaker 1
I bought that magazine at the Wegmans.
[83:33]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[83:34]
Speaker 1
I just saw it. I was like, it was next to a. The Home and Garden. I said, is there a Muppet magazine?
[83:38]
Speaker 2
Yeah, there's a Muppet magazine.
[83:39]
Speaker 1
I'm writing that off for our. Our.
[83:41]
Speaker 2
It's been sitting in front of me this whole time. I'm like, I should probably hold this up.
[83:43]
Speaker 1
Just probably hold it up. I mean, it's okay. I just wanted. I just saw it and said, I need.
[83:47]
Speaker 2
It just has pictures. It's just mostly pictures of the Muppets.
[83:49]
Speaker 1
I know. I love it.
[83:50]
Speaker 2
Magazines used to have words in them.
[83:52]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[83:53]
Speaker 2
Now they're just expensive picture books.
[83:55]
Speaker 1
Yeah.
[83:56]
Speaker 2
But what else?
[83:57]
Speaker 1
You know, Listen, it was a great time. I got to laugh, cry.
[84:00]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[84:00]
Speaker 1
Have memories.
[84:01]
Speaker 2
You're about to. We're about to make the most fun ransom note out of this.
[84:04]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Whoa.
[84:06]
Speaker 2
That's what magazines are for, right?
[84:08]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Writing ransom notes.
[84:09]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[84:10]
Speaker 1
But listen, everybody, have a good week.
[84:11]
Speaker 2
Thank you.
[84:12]
Speaker 1
We are going to be creative and have fun this week.
[84:15]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[84:15]
Speaker 1
And share our art and creativity with the world.
[84:17]
Speaker 2
Yep.
[84:19]
Speaker 1
And we'll see you next week.
[84:20]
Speaker 2
Yeah. And hey, get down in the comments. And I want you guys to write in the comments. Just write. It's Morpet's time. Too many frauds and too many scammers that we wish weren't real. Too many cons and too many spammers and we're starting to feel like we've got too many tabs.
[84:43]
Speaker 1
Open it too many times.
[84:49]
Speaker 2
Remember to smile.
[84:53]
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[85:23]
Speaker 2
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[86:23]
Speaker 1
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