Top Advisor Podcast #83 Summary

Episode Title: Charging for Financial Planning Services with Steven Kaplan & Ben Skupp
Host: Bill Cates
Guests: Steven Kaplan & Ben Skupp
Date: February 19, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the practical realities and philosophy behind charging clients directly for financial advice and planning—beyond the traditional product- or asset-driven compensation. Bill Cates interviews Steven Kaplan and Ben Skupp, co-founders of Holistic Financial Planners and Mindshift Financial Coaching, who share their own journeys transitioning from product sales to fee-for-advice planning. The pair discuss how this model benefits clients and advisors by fostering clarity, setting boundaries, and delivering a less stressful, more referable business. They also offer insights into their process, advice for advisors considering a similar shift, and real-world success stories of transformation.

1. The Shift to Charging for Advice: Why and How

[04:05 - 09:27]

• Steven Kaplan’s Origin Story (04:05)

  • Steven witnessed his father burn out as an insurance producer, which sparked his determination to avoid repeating the "hamster on a wheel" lifestyle.
  • His pivot: A realization that both product and wealth management models have pitfalls; discovering financial planning as an advice-driven profession through the mentorship of a leading planner.

  "He was really lacking in the CEO mindset and running the business and setting up some boundaries and rules for himself and his clients." — Steven Kaplan (06:45)

• Ben Skupp’s Perspective (08:02)

  • Ten years of success, followed by mounting anxiety and burnout due to lack of structure and clear client roles.
  • The decision to offer planning as a distinct service gave him control, reduced uncertainty, and “allowed enjoying the journey.” He credits this for helping him avoid the burnout his partner's father experienced.

  "My why really came from I want to enjoy my journey of life and I wasn't. And I was on the verge of what Steve's father went through." — Ben Skupp (08:24)

2. Reinventing the Client-Adviser Relationship

[09:27 - 16:58]

• Old Way vs. New Way (10:04)

  • Old: Client sets the tone and frequency, performance-based, reactive (“putting out fires”).
  • New: Advisor as “CEO,” sets the rules, relationship structured as quarterly planning, projection-based (focused on clients’ goals), not solely on investment performance.

  "If we're doing planning, we're talking quarterly...The old way was performance-based...The new way is projection based. It's having enough for the client's journey and really defining that through the projections of the plan." — Ben Skupp (10:16)

• Transferring Anxiety (11:26)

  • Clients hand off financial worries; advisor exchanges those for confidence by providing structure and clarity.
  • Host Bill Cates reframes it: Rather than absorbing all client stress, advisors guide clients and restore confidence through proactive planning.

  "We transfer confidence back. And when you do that, that's what's extinguishing the fires." — Ben Skupp (11:26)

• Demonstrating Value for a Fee (13:21)

  • Need separate, transparent services: Full financial oversight for a fee, “investment only” for a different fee, or narrow one-off needs.
  • Advisors are often trained to believe fees must be tied to products or transactions. MindShift helps undo this training, teaching advisors to lead with knowledge and value.

  "Pretend for a moment that you couldn't make money by implementing a product...how would I provide for my family? Well, I know an awful lot about personal finance...I could help someone with all of that...and they could pay me." — Steven Kaplan (14:36)

3. Communicating the Value of Planning: Framing and Language

[17:52 - 22:47]

• Simple, Transparent Offerings (17:52)

  • Prospective clients are presented with clear options:
    • Oversight: “We look at anything that hits you financially, anything with a dollar sign. We take the academics of planning, marry it with behavioral finance. If it’s inefficient, we fix it.”
    • Investments Only: “We look to get the most return within your risk tolerance.”

  "Our language and mindset has to be simple and it has to be transparent...so they can opt in." — Ben Skupp (17:56)

• Invitation, Not a Hard Sell (20:04)

  • Those taking a narrow service are always invited (not forced) to move to the more comprehensive oversight model.

• Mindset Errors in Product-First Approaches (21:25)

  • Advisors who believe compensation from product sales equals value can struggle to make the shift.
  • Studies support: the advisor (and behavioral guidance) is the value, not the product alone.

  "It stops people from converting to this model because they've disconnected what the value is." — Ben Skupp (21:25)

• Doctor & Medication Analogy (22:38)

  • Product is like “medication”; advisor is the “doctor” interpreting, diagnosing, and prescribing the right solution (both are valuable, but the process begins with expertise).

4. Advisor Coaching, Tactics, and Impact

[27:16 - 33:07]

• Advisor Coaching Through Mindshift (27:16)

  • Mindshift trains advisors to clearly define and communicate offerings, give clients agency, and transparently set expectations from meeting one.
  • At the end of each planning year, clients choose to:
    • Continue comprehensive oversight
    • Drop down to investment-only service
    • Or leave (rarely occurs)

  "We talk about this in the first meeting, the three outcomes at the end of the year...that's the power that they have." — Ben Skupp (28:08)

• The Power of Language (29:39)

  • Giving advisors specific phrases and approaches to structure their client meetings builds confidence and shifts behavior.
  • Using “empty bucket” terms (ambiguity clients can fill with their own needs) creates client-centric language, e.g., “financial management oversight.”

  "A lot of the language is great open-ended questions or using terms that are an empty bucket...I want to use an empty bucket where the prospect's filling it with their pain or what they need help with." — Ben Skupp (30:40)

• How to Learn More (31:49)

  • Advisors can visit MindShift Financial Coaching’s site to access information and schedule a call.
  • The program offers live, written, and recorded sessions, and emphasizes recurring client renewals as the pathway to long-term success.

5. Industry Trends & The Irreplaceable Value of Advice

[33:07 - 36:12]

• Charging for Planning is the Present (33:07)

  • Fee-for-advice is now standard at the enterprise level; advisors need to adapt both business model and language.
  • The market need is growing: “Anyone that is offering me help, my ears perk up.”

  "I don't think it's the future because it's the present...We're seeing it at the enterprise level...There is a push towards planning." — Steven Kaplan (33:07)

• AI & Technology: No Substitute for Human Advice Yet (35:22)

  • Clients value human “help” and “relief”—something not currently replicated by AI.

  "I'm not seeing it yet. I haven't had anyone come back and go, Steve, I just found a robot that does what you do. It hasn't happened in 10 years yet." — Steven Kaplan (35:12)

6. Success Stories from Coaching Advisors

[36:41 - 41:21]

• High-End Case: An advisor charged $100,000 for a planning engagement using Mindshift language, resulting in a client transferring $50MM in investments as a result.

• Young Advisor Example: Recent graduate adopted the fee model from the start, charging five figures in planning fees, because this was presented as the default/obvious path.

  "We find...it's easier to deal with a blank slate than a broken slate...He was so matter of fact: 'Why wouldn't you charge for all your expertise?'" — Steven Kaplan (37:48, paraphrased)

• Blank Slate Exercise: Steven describes his own “slap upside the head” when learning from a top planner who simply stated, in front of hundreds, “I charge $3,000 for this work,” reframing the possibilities for him.

  "I just needed to hear it though, from someone else in the trenches, someone else that's been there and done it." — Steven Kaplan (41:00)

7. Final Thoughts & Takeaways

[41:21 - 42:53]

• Awareness and willingness to change mindset unlocks new business opportunities and personal fulfillment.

• The advice-driven fee model creates clarity, boundaries, and ultimately a more fulfilling, less burnout-prone financial practice—for both advisors and clients.

  "Ideas do not make you more successful. Only acting on those ideas will bring you the success you desire." — Bill Cates (42:55)

Standout Quotes

• "It is not the product that makes you referable, it's the process." — Bill Cates (36:12)
• "We've got to give up front in the first minute the agenda to the prospect and what a potential outcome is and then give them what the offering is." — Ben Skupp (27:40)
• "It's easier to deal with a blank slate than a broken slate." — Steven Kaplan (37:48)
• "Part of me considers Mindshift as almost advisor advocacy...that's just saying, help yourself." — Steven Kaplan (41:22)

Key Timestamps

• 04:05 — Steven Kaplan’s story: his father’s burnout inspires a new path.
• 08:02 — Ben Skupp distinguishes the impacts of undefined business relationships.
• 10:04 — Comparing the “old way” vs. “new way” of planning relationships.
• 13:21 — Breaking down and communicating separate value areas and fees.
• 17:52 — How language and transparent offerings make the model work.
• 27:16 — How Mindshift trains advisors; clear client pathways and outcomes.
• 33:07 — Industry trends: the fee-for-advice model is now, not future.
• 36:41 — Advisor success stories proving the model’s versatility and results.
• 41:21 — The shift in advisor awareness that changes professional trajectories.

In Summary

Steven Kaplan and Ben Skupp provide a compelling case for charging directly for the value of comprehensive financial planning. Their model is rooted in personal experience and advisor advocacy—helping practitioners reframe their roles, set healthy boundaries, and communicate their expertise in ways that reduce both stress and burnout. The pair emphasize that the right mindset, supported by the right language, is crucial for both advisor and client success in today’s market.

For advisors looking to make the transition or deepen their impact, Mindshift Financial Coaching is positioned as a resource for both strategic and tactical guidance. The enduring takeaways: Know your value. Structure your offering. Lead with help, not just products. And remember—the right process, clearly communicated, is what makes you truly referable.