#84 EXACTLY What to Say (And Ask) with Phil M. Jones, CSP, CPAE

Summary

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Top Advisor Podcast - Episode #84

EXACTLY What to Say (And Ask) with Phil M. Jones, CSP, CPAE

Host: Bill Cates
Guest: Phil M. Jones, CSP, CPAE
Date: March 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Bill Cates interviews Phil M. Jones, acclaimed author of "Exactly What to Say," about the art and science of asking the right questions. The conversation dives deep into how financial advisors can move from giving advice to unlocking client needs, using strategic curiosity, and stacking questions to create trust, context, and more robust client relationships. The discussion is practical, focusing on frameworks, tactical language, and actual roleplays that advisors can adopt immediately.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Power of Asking Rather Than Telling

• Question vs. Advice:

  • Phil emphasizes that advisors should ask rather than tell. "People should look to be able to discover the advice that they need for their circumstances through the questions that you ask." (05:00)
  • Advisors often jump too quickly to advice, missing the opportunity to build context and trust.

• Earning the Right to Advise:

  • You shouldn't give advice until you thoroughly understand the client. "If you insert your content before you've earned the other person's context, then what you've got is a noisy situation, got noisier in the mind of other people." (04:10)

Frameworks for Effective Questioning

• The Opening-Fact-Question (OFQ) Structure (16:31)

  • Polite opening, mutually agreeable fact, and easy-to-answer question.
  • Example for a life insurance inquiry:
    • Opening: "Great we got to be connected today..."
    • Fact: "It sounds like we're both aware you want to make sure your family is protected..."
    • Question: "Is there anything else on your agenda today for us to talk about?"

• Question Stacks / Trees

  • Stack questions like musical notes to build a fluid, effective conversation.
  • Sequence starts broad and gets more specific as context is earned.

Shifting Client Perspective Through Questions

• Perspective-shifting Questions (19:46)

  • Use questions to lead clients to new perspectives without being pushy.
  • Example: "What do you understand about all of your options when it comes to life insurance?" (20:04)
  • Follow-up: "What is your experience of working with other professional advisors?" (20:53)
  • This approach establishes expertise and gently guides the client to see where they have gaps.

• Empathy & Curiosity as Core Tools

  • "Curiosity earns you context, because what happens is you’re starting to see the world from the other person’s point of view." (06:55)
  • John Acuff's definition borrowed by Phil: "Empathy is caring about what the people you care about care about." (07:23)

Slowing Down to Speed Up

• Slowing The Process
  • "If you slow the process down, you speed the outcome up... How do you use questions to slow the process down?" (08:49)
  • Reference to the U.S. Marines: "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast." (34:31)

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Tactical Language and Question Examples

Permission and Framework

• Avoid "Can I ask you a few questions?" as it may cool the conversation.
• Instead, OFQ structure is better for leading into deeper discussions.

Key Questions in The Stack

• Broad Understanding:

  • "What do you understand about your options?" (20:04)
  • "What is your experience with...?" (20:53)
  • "How certain are you that...?" (22:03)
  • "When was the last time you rushed into a decision and made the wrong choice?" (23:59)
  • "How important is it to you that you have control over your entire wealth plan?" (25:24)

• Perspective and Possibility:

  • "Could it be possible that life insurance is only one of the things to consider?" (25:42)
  • "Could it be possible that us working together would be the right solution?" (26:14)

• Emotion and Visualization:

  • "How would you feel if...?" — but make sure to avoid leading or obvious questions which could feel manipulative (29:53).
  • "Just imagine..." to help clients see positive outcomes (31:39).

• Closing the Loop:

  • Use "because of the fact that you said..." to tie recommendations to client-supplied context (34:33).

• Past, Present, Future Arc:

  • "Where are you invested right now?" (39:34)
  • "So how’s that all working out for you?" (40:18)
  • "Where are you hoping to go from here?" (40:24)

Handling Inertia

• Point out the cost of doing nothing without making the client feel judged.
• "What do you understand about the opportunity cost of not being properly invested?" (43:38)
• Use a scale: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how important is this?" (43:10)

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Roleplay & Memorable Moments

• Roleplay around Life Insurance:

  • Phil demonstrates how to gently reframe a client's perception from a transaction to a long-term relationship starting at [19:46].

• On Not Giving Advice:

  • Phil recounts a personal story about holding back on giving advice to his daughter, letting her find her own solution. "No advice given, plenty of advice received." (06:56)

• Referrals and Referability:

  • "It's rarely the product. It's almost always the process that makes you more referable." (27:19)
  • Strong processes using these questions actually boost advisor referability.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “The worst time to think about the thing you’re going to say is in the moment where you’re saying it.”
  — Phil M. Jones, (06:56)

• “Curiosity is the fuel to great conversation.”
  — Phil M. Jones, (06:55)

• “Selling is earning the right to make a recommendation.”
  — Phil M. Jones, (34:33)

• “Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.”
  — Phil M. Jones quoting U.S. Marines, (34:31)

• “It's rarely the product. It's almost always the process that makes you more referable.”
  — Bill Cates, (27:19)

• “Prescription before diagnosis is malpractice.”
  — Phil M. Jones, (27:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:10] – Should advice really be about asking, not telling?
• [05:49] – Building tactical question "stacks" like musical scales
• [16:31] – The OFQ (Opening-Fact-Question) structure
• [19:46] – Roleplay: Reframing client perspective with question stacking
• [23:58] – Using "when was the last time..." for client self-realization
• [25:42] – Introducing "could it be possible..." to spark further conversation
• [31:39] – Using "just imagine..." for client visualization
• [34:33] – Tying recommendations back to client input using "because of the fact that you said..."

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Style & Approach Takeaways

• Phil’s conversational style is invitational not prescriptive—always inviting clients to see possibilities and participate in their own discovery.
• He advocates for slowing down: “If you slow the process down, you speed the outcome up.”
• Create new moments with clients, especially existing ones, using the same question structures for deeper engagement.

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How to Apply These Lessons

• Build your own "question stacks" or "trees" for common client scenarios.
• Use the opening-fact-question structure to frame all substantive discussions.
• Focus on understanding before advising: gather context, use empathy, and lead clients to self-realization rather than quick fixes.
• Apply these methods not just with prospects but also with existing clients to "write new day ones" and uncover additional opportunities.

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Connect with Phil M. Jones

• Website: philemjones.com
• Instagram: @philemjonesuk
• Books: “Exactly What to Say” and related resources

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Closing Reminder from Host

“Ideas do not make you more successful. Only acting on those ideas will bring you the success you desire.”
— Bill Cates

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This episode delivers a blueprint for advisors who want to differentiate through authentic, strategic questioning—unlocking greater client value, trust, and long-term relationships.

Transcript

[Bill Cates]

Welcome to the Top Advisor Podcast, brought to you by Proudmouth's podrocket Academy. I'm your host, Bill Cates, creator of the Cates Academy for Relationship Marketing. In each episode, I interview one of our industry's top performers, getting them to pass on their secrets to success to you so that you can impact more lives and generate more income. Now, onto the show.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Foreign.

[Bill Cates]

Welcome. How many times have you been told that the secret to success lies in your ability to ask better questions and be a better listener? Well, I'm here to tell you that as trite as that sounds, it's not an urban legend. It's the truth. So here's a question for you. Have you developed a process for how and when to ask the most effective questions of your prospects and clients? Well, that's the topic of today's show. Knowing exactly what to ask. I think you're going to love this episode. But before we get going, I want to let you know about some free resources that I invite you to retrieve. After you've listened to today's interview, you'll find checklists, guides, videos and other tools. Simply go to referralcoach.com resources. Now write this down unless you're driving referralcoach.com resources and it's also in the show Notes. While you're there, make sure you sign up for our free weekly tips. We're always sharing best practices, and we'll notify you of our newest podcast interviews as they go live. And while these are free to you, I think you'll find them quite valuable. The Top Advisor podcast is sponsored by the folks at Proudmouth who bring you the Pod Rocket Influence Academy. And this episode is sponsored by Ironclad Family, who brings you Ivault X, a financial advisor enablement tool focused on upping your game as a holistic advisor, as well as Harbor Capital, an asset manager known for curating an intentionally select suite of active ETFs from boutique managers. My featured guest for today's show is Phil M. Jones, csp, cpae. While the author of seven business books and one gorgeous children's book, Phil is best known for his international bestseller and exactly what to say the magic words for influence and impact. Phil is also the producer of the most listened to audiobook of all time. That's Saying Something. It's called how to Persuade An Audible Production. Phil and I are members of the National Speakers Association. We're both members of the Million Dollar Speakers Group and if I can brag for just a second, we're members of NSA's Speaker hall of fame that includes such notable members as General Colin Powell and President President Ronald Reagan. Today's show was recorded at Phil's offices in Hudson, New York. So, Phil, you're known as the exactly what to say guy. And while we often need to know what to say, sometimes the power in conversations comes from knowing what to ask.

[Phil M. Jones]

True story.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

So are you also the what exactly what to ask guy?

[Phil M. Jones]

I think if I was to title the book more accurately, the book should have been called exactly what to Ask. And the book exactly what to say is 23 prefaces of what we call magic words that allow you to ask with more competence, more confidence, and often with more curiosity. The struggle that people have when they're asking questions is they're often asking the question they want the answer to a little too directly. They're not creating a big enough sandbox to play in to build a landscape that is framed out wide enough for expertise to be inserted in the right way, or they are asking too precisely and the result of which is it creates friction or pushback.

[Bill Cates]

So the questions are too narrow.

[Phil M. Jones]

Can be, could be, can be.

[Bill Cates]

So you know that the audience is financial advisors. And one of the things that I teach is the more context an advisor has about their prospect or client, the more they know about them. Because money intersects all aspects of one's life, the better you serve them 100% right.

[Phil M. Jones]

And every advisor is going to want to insert their content. Content about, you know, the products and services they can provide for them, content about what makes them unique versus any other advisor. Content about the. The precise levels of service they're going to get an expectation. But if you insert your content before you've earned the other person's context, then what you've got is a noisy situation, got noisier in the mind of other people.

[Bill Cates]

Could also be too transactional. Could also confuse.

[Phil M. Jones]

Well, could also shoot and miss.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

One of the only direct piece of advice I give to people who are in the advice business, and this is remarkably ironic that I give this as advice, is to stop giving advice.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

People should look to be able to discover the advice that they need for their circumstances through the questions that you ask.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And one encouragement I bring to people more often is could they live an entire day of their life delivering approximately zero advice? Now, for somebody who's an advisor, that is a tough gig. How do you live a day of your life delivering no advice when people are paying you for your advice?

[Bill Cates]

You know, it's funny you say this. I, I interviewed a gal Once she said she an advisor, she had laryngitis and she really couldn't talk for about a week. She said her and. But she still had some meetings with clients. She said they were the best meeting she ever had because she really couldn't say much. Imagine that.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right, right.

[Bill Cates]

So let's talk about questions. Sure. I suppose it could be a prospect, could be a client, potential client. Maybe that's where we'll start. Give us a sense of how you think about questions and maybe we can get some pretty tactical with the types of questions they ask.

[Phil M. Jones]

I thought about questions to a level of obnoxiousness and obsession that is beyond what most people would even think is reasonable. To a point that I've learned a sequence of questions that you can stack in a very precise order that is very similar to how a series of notes could play out in a musical instrument. To be able to create a scale and in the world of music is you have to learn to play the notes before you can learn to play scales. You have to learn scales before you can read sheet music. You, you have to learn how to play sheet music before you can play jazz. And we live in a world where when it comes to asking, answering questions and being ready to deal with the moments inside client relationships where people want to say, teach me how to play jazz. Sometimes we have to back up a little and say, let's create some principles and some basic fundamentals for how to communicate. First, there was a point in time in my life where I was remarkably embarrassed by the words that left my mouth. And it wasn't actually that long ago. Around 18 months ago, my eldest daughter came to me for what I thought was advice. And I jumped straight into advice monster mode. The words that left my mouth were the words when I was in your shoes.

[Bill Cates]

Oh boy.

[Phil M. Jones]

17 year old girl looked down at her feet very quickly, realized there was not a day in my life that I have worn footwear that resembled that. And I stopped myself from giving advice like I was the least qualified person to give advice at that moment. And by alternative became strategically curious for a short period of time of around, say, 22 minutes. And 22 minutes later, she came back with, dad, I think I know what I want to do. No advice given, plenty of advice received. And it was about the same as what I would have told her to do. But she figured it out by herself. We can do this when we're asking questions. And the first part of this is realizing that the worst time to think about the thing you're going to Say is in the moment where you're saying it. As a financial advisor, you find yourself in recurring, repeatable, high stakes moments, time after time after time again. And then you find yourself in situations where you're like, I didn't see that coming. Like, what do you mean you didn't see it coming? It comes every single time. So you should have seen it coming by now if you're a pro. So when you're asking questions in these environments, your first stage is to secure the context of the other person's scenario, the full context. So all of your early questions should be fueled with curiosity to garner you context. Curiosity is the fuel to great conversation. Curiosity earns you context because what happens is you're starting to see the world from the other person's point of view. When you're curious for long enough, you find yourself in the second area of empathy. We know how important empathy is, but empathy is caring about what the people you care about care about. That's not my definition. That's John Acuff's definition. I can't do better than it, so I'm going to borrow his. But that's what every financial advisor wants to be. Right. They wants to feel like they're on the same side as the client, chasing the same goal. Like, nobody wants a retirement plan. What they want is a retirement that allows them to do X, Y and Z.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

If you don't know what xyz.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

And not even the results of the plan. They want the results of the results of the plan.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay. Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

Like we got to go even further through that and consider the bigger picture and the cost of not doing this, which I know is something that you talk about regularly, is that you think you win when really all you did is partially win with the business you secured from a client. Because they're only giving you part of the pie. They're not giving you the whole pie. We have a simple principle that if you slow the process down, you speed the outcome up. So the question is, how do you use questions to slow the process down?

[Bill Cates]

Let me. Before we get into some of these questions, I love the idea of a question stack.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yep.

[Bill Cates]

It's a recipe of sorts.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

You call them question trees.

[Bill Cates]

Question trees. I like that. I'm thinking the context here. I'm thinking if someone, if you're meeting with a prospect and they're coming with a need they feel they have.

[Phil M. Jones]

Sure.

[Bill Cates]

A priority that's theirs. How do you move from. No, we're not going to talk about that. I got this question Stack, I know you're not going to say that exactly but you know, how do you, how do you open this up in a way that they don't feel disrespected? I suppose with why they came.

[Phil M. Jones]

There's a principle that the person who's asking the questions is in control of the conversation. So if, if a client was coming to an advisor with an immediate need, what would it be an example of that immediate need?

[Bill Cates]

Well, more life insurance.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

So they come in because they want more life insurance and a, a traditional licensed advisor that would jump straight into here's how I can help you mode would start talking about what.

[Bill Cates]

Well they do. They do their quote unquote life insurance fact finder.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

And some of that would be open ended dreams and things like that but a lot of it would be other things but it would all be oriented towards a deliverable around life. Around life insurance.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

And it's, you know, is it a whole of life policy, is it a term policy, what's the value of the policy, etc. It would be asking curious questions to the point to be able to make a recommendation around life insurance.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right. Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

Is our job in the early stage of a conversation is to ask questions to expand the field of play? They're coming at you saying like this is the puzzle that we're looking to solve. Your mindset should be is I absolutely want to help solve that puzzle, but I need to see how that piece of the puzzle fits in the frame of the entire set of overlapping circumstances that are affected by this.

[Bill Cates]

I would suppose that also depends on the frame you put yourself in 100%.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

In other words, if you are a DI specialist, a life specialist, long term care specialist.

[Phil M. Jones]

Sure.

[Bill Cates]

An investment manager.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

And that's the frame you put yourself in. Then you probably don't care about a bigger frame for the client, do you? Or do you? Or should you?

[Phil M. Jones]

I believe if you are looking to be of long term service and value, if you don't have an understanding of how your area of service provision impacts the, the other overlapping service provisions. Well, you're a vendor and you're actually asking the client to be their own advisor or you are as a vendor for their advice or their wealth plan.

[Bill Cates]

Or their financial plan, which I found in my world makes you a little less referable where they will only refer you based on how they see you.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

And they probably won't refer you, they'll just refer the product of which you recommended.

[Bill Cates]

Good chance.

[Phil M. Jones]

And you're commoditizing your service. And as we record this in 2024, if that's the game you're playing, I would argue that you are going to struggle to be able to play that game long term because the answers to the questions that you're providing are answers that could be provided by a computer software program.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

That can then immediately make a recommendation of a product and before long somebody's going to be one click to buy and you're unnecessary. So never wish that this was going to be easier because if it was easier, any fool could do it. If any fool could do it, a software program could do it. And if a software program could do it, you are irrelevant.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right. Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

So. So we've got to get good at helping people realize that what they want is not necessarily what they thought they.

[Bill Cates]

Wanted and I guess also bring to them a little more than what they expected, which is always good.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yep.

[Bill Cates]

We'll be right back after a word from two of our show's sponsors. I want to take about 90 seconds to talk about one of the big trends in our industry that is holistic financial planning. As you may know, holistic planning is not just about investments or insurance. Holistic planning is about creating a master plan where everything works together. Investments, insurance, taxes, estate planning, even your client's personal goals and values come into play. Many clients are loving this approach where their advisor connects all the dots for them. This more comprehensive approach leads to clients gaining greater clarity, confidence and peace of mind, which is what all clients ultimately want. Now there's a platform that makes it easier for advisors to engage in true holistic planning. It's called the IVAultX from the folks at Ironclad Family. IVAult X is a one stop digital vault for all your clients. Financial documents, personal records, and even legacy plans. You help your clients get organized and secure for which they will love you. Your next step is to grab your free guide or on how to make becoming a more holistic advisor easier for you and your team. Simply go to holisticadvisorguide.com to access this free guide. That's www.holisticadvisorguide.com and this link is also in the show notes. IVAultX may just be your key to bringing integrated financial guidance and the resulting peace of mind to your clients and their families. This ad is brought to you by Harbor Capital Advisors. Let's Talk about Harbor's LinkedIn page for a second because they're giving you direct access to some of the top minds from across the industry. Here are some facts about their team Their CIO brings deep experience from his days at JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs. Their head of ETFs has worked on the launch of many ETFs around the world. One of their portfolio managers leverages his prior experience at the Fed to color his opinion on monetary policy and the macroeconomic environment. And their capital markets expert breaks down complex market structures and offers ETF 101 insights with a side of unexpected musical references. He also just happened to interview me for Harbor's podcast the Active Advisor. You'll see my episode on their LinkedIn feed. Check out Harbor Capital Advisors on LinkedIn and listen to my episode of their podcast while you're there. The views expressed herein are those of Bill Cates at the time of the comments were made. They may not be reflective of their current opinions, are subject to change without prior notice, and should not be considered investment advice. All investing involves risk, including loss of principal. Harbor Capital Advisors, Inc. Is not affiliated with Referral Coach or Top advisor podcast. Foreside Fund Services LLC is a distributor of the Harbor ETFs 3880661 all right, so let's get into some questions here. And how does this question stack play out? What would this look like?

[Phil M. Jones]

I think one of the first things that we often need to do is we need to start a new conversation inside an existing conversation. That's how you create a frame.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And people do this by sometimes labeling and they'll say things like, so I wanted to take a few moments to talk about the bigger picture. Or they'll say things like, I understand that's important to you, but what else is important is blank. Right? We'll put up, we'll put a label on this. Or they say like, hey, before we get into this, can I ask you a few questions? And we're putting this, I don't want to talk about that yet label out there. People do that a lot right now and I believe that that is a modern day equivalent of asking, have you got a few minutes to talk? It changes the temperature of a conversation. It doesn't necessarily help the frame of what it is you're looking to.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

If you're looking for permission to have a bigger conversation, sometimes you want structure to have permission in that conversation. And a structure we teach is a structure called ofq, which is opening fact question. We want a polite opening, a mutually agreeable fact and then an easy to answer question. Okay, so let's say we've got a client that came in because they're looking for some help with Their life insurance. You're at your initial sit down meeting. You build some rapport. You create some small talk. You talk about how you're introduced, but now you want to start the next part of the conversation. We're starting a new convo inside a convo. So we're going to give a polite opening play. Opening might be. Look, I'm so great. We got to be connected today. This is a polite opening.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

What's a mutually agreeable fact? The mutually agreeable fact is that it sounds like we're both aware that at least one of the things that you're going to be looking for some help with is making sure that you and your family have the adequate protections in place to ensure that if anything was to happen to you, that the people you care about most in the world are taken care of.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Bill Cates]

Now you wouldn't, you wouldn't say, here's an opening fact we can agree on.

[Phil M. Jones]

I'm. I've just got to put a fact out there that we quite clearly.

[Bill Cates]

So you're doing it. It's like a semi role play demo here.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

All right, Gotcha.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

All right.

[Phil M. Jones]

That's a mutually agreeable fact. And the inside voice should say, that's right. They shouldn't need to say, that's right.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

If I was going to give a. An easy to answer question on that that comes behind that, I would then say, is there anything else on your agenda today for us to be able to talk about?

[Bill Cates]

Could be yes or no.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

But I don't lose either way.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right. Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

So you could say, well, I was hoping to be able to learn more from you about blank and blank and blank. Or they could say, no, that's the main thing. Either way, we've now just got permission that we change the temperature and the direction of the conversation. Either way, what I now want to better do is to take a bigger sandbox to play on.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

Often what you're looking to be able to do is, is to shift people's perspectives. And let me, let me try and make this easy for you is tell me what you see.

[Bill Cates]

I see a journal.

[Phil M. Jones]

You see a black journal. What do I see? I see a pen. Okay, who's right?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

We both are.

[Phil M. Jones]

We both are. But I could sit here for ever in a day and say, I want to talk to you about this pen.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

And you're going to say, there's no pen there, you idiot. And we're going to find ourselves in conflict.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

What I've learned to be true is that you cannot change anybody's mind about anything. All you can do is change their perspective so they go on to be able to change their own mind.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And I've learned that there are simple sequences of words that you can utilize that can help people start to see things from a different perspective. Perspective questions that challenge their existing point of view. Because if we can get to a new perspective that this isn't about you just securing some life insurance, but this is about you feeling confident about your entire wealth plan and having an awareness that this is something that's sustainable and taken care of for the ever. And you can see me as a long term partner inside of your life and a confident and a resource towards bigger part of the picture. As I can go from we're riding a 750 grand life insurance premium through to we're going to do a significant amount of business together over the next 5, 7, 9, 10, 15, 20 years. I have to change the vantage point where we're coming at this from.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Sure.

[Phil M. Jones]

Now I'm going to reach into our roleplay card box and just show how this can work as a series or a stack of questions.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

All right.

[Phil M. Jones]

And we have a set of questions in this body of work that we call perspective changes. Like if we're looking to shift people's perspective is I would borrow a series of questions and I'd go one at a time. My first goal is to gain control of this conversation and help somebody realize they don't know enough. So my first question would be a what do you understand? Question.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

All right.

[Phil M. Jones]

In this scenario I might ask, well, you know, what do you understand about all of your options when it comes to life insurance? And most people are going to say what?

[Bill Cates]

Well, I know there's term, I know there's whole life, I really don't know the difference or what's right for me.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

They're going to give either some form of vagueish response and I could say, well, what do you understand at this point about what's specifically right for you and your family? And you're going to say, that's why.

[Bill Cates]

I came to you.

[Phil M. Jones]

Bingo. Who's now got control and leading the conversation, you do.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

They told me I don't know enough. Who's now established expertise?

[Bill Cates]

You've got control because they've given you permission to correct.

[Phil M. Jones]

That's exactly what's happened.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

Now that I've got control, my next question is going to be a contextualizing question to help me understand what I need to project my value against or where I need to align my value to a pre existing belief. So I'm going to ask a what is your experience Question.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

All right.

[Phil M. Jones]

In this scenario, it could be is what is your experience of working with professional advisors like us in any other area of your life?

[Bill Cates]

And are you asking me or. A long time ago, I had a guy sell me a term policy, but I just, I feel like it's probably not enough. And I be honest, I really don't understand what I did.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

So you can give me a very practical example about somebody in the past that was kind of commoditized, and you could be thinking of him and me as like, kind of the same, but maybe a little bit better. If I want to create a bigger sandbox to play in, I could then ask a further what is your experience question outside of financial services?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

So I could say, well, what is your experience of working with experienced professionals in any area of your life for things that are important to you?

[Bill Cates]

First person that comes to mind is my accountant, Eddie.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Bill Cates]

Because Eddie, he's an accountant, but he's not just a bean counter. He's a business advisor. And he really cares about my success and he's introduced me to a lot of other resources.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

So that's a good, long term, strong relationship.

[Phil M. Jones]

I just found out what is valuable for you in a relationship with another professional.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

You've just told me what you find as valuable.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

And I can then ask a. Well, how certain are you that you're looking for a financial advisor that provides that same level of care?

[Bill Cates]

Oh, it's definitely what I want.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

How could I say anything else? You can't.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

I mean, it could. Is it possible that someone say, look, you know, Phil, I appreciate this. Can you just help me figure out what life insurance I need?

[Phil M. Jones]

Well, I could then say, well, how certain are you? What type of life insurance is that you need at this time? And you're going to say, well, I don't.

[Bill Cates]

I don't. That's why I came to you.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right. Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

Without really making the person feel stupid, which is pretty important here. Time for another quick break from the folks that make this show possible. I have coached and interviewed many advisors who report significant success with their podcast. A podcast can create deeper engagement with your clients and attract more. Right. Fit clients to your practice. I've been working with the folks at Proudmouth since the inception of this show. Not only do they take care of the nuts and bolts of producing and hosting the episodes, but they've shown me how to increase my influence and Attract more business. Proudmouth has a tool they call the Managed Influence Accelerator that creates a powerful content ecosystem that amplifies your voice, builds your influence and and drives real growth. And their Sonic Boom coaching program with podcast pro Matt Halloran will guide you through the entire process. They'll make sure you have the right strategies in place and then employ the exact right tactics for you. Podcasting isn't for everyone. And with that said, I think you owe yourself a look at how having a podcast can help you play bigger and build a better business. To book your free strategy session, go to proudmouth.com cates that's proudmouth.com cates what.

[Phil M. Jones]

I can then do is I can take a photograph of something in their historic memory with a when was the last time? Question.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

All right.

[Phil M. Jones]

Hey, when was the last time that you rushed into a decision and ended up finding that you made the wrong choice.

[Bill Cates]

Monthly?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

It is my way.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

You know, how often do you rush into decisions and they end up being expensive to you?

[Bill Cates]

Not always, but occasionally.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And for how long have you realized that you might be looking for a smarter, more holistic financial plan?

[Bill Cates]

You're a smart guy. Let's keep going.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

Right. Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

So what I'm doing is I'm slowing the conversation down, but I'm helping you self discover that this isn't the quick answer. Yes.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

And how important is it to you if and when your life insurance pays out, the funds are well protected and that the funds are growing at a level and that your family know how to access those funds?

[Bill Cates]

So first of all, for those just listening, he's holding up one of his cards. How important is it?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

And.

[Bill Cates]

And out. Kind of out of a role play here, it's possible that someone might say, I'm not sure.

[Phil M. Jones]

Which is okay.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right? Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

Which is okay. I haven't really thought what. What should I expect?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

Well, then how important is it to you that you feel that you are in control of this process?

[Bill Cates]

Well, I'm not. And I want. I want to make an educated decision.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

So I can stay on the same question to get to a point that you realize I'm doing this for you, not to you.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

There's a method here for us to be able to work through so that any recommendations we make are realistic. And I could stay on a how important question is. Is, you know, how important is it that you. You have control over your entire wealth plan?

[Bill Cates]

I'd say it's pretty important. I mean, ultimately, it is my responsibility right now.

[Phil M. Jones]

What I Can do is create movement. In a conversation with another question, I could say, well, could it be possible that life insurance is only one of the things that we need to consider why we're here today.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

And I do have some investments. I have money invested, too. Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

And then could it be possible that if we both talked through everything you were looking to achieve, we might make better recommendations?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

Could it be possible? Question.

[Phil M. Jones]

It creates movement forward towards. But it's also not a. I think it's also very hard to say no to a could it be possible?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Question. Yeah, it could be.

[Phil M. Jones]

Could it be possible that us working together would be the right solution? Could it be possible that you maybe need a little extra? Could it be possible that there are other people that need to be named as beneficiaries? Could it be possible that doing something bigger now would save you money in the long term? Could it be possible?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

It's.

[Phil M. Jones]

We're very suggestive with the could it be possible? Question, because all we're doing is we're shooting with like a 901010 odds, not 100% odds.

[Bill Cates]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

When we say what I think you should do is if you're not 100% right, and any resistance comes back, the resistance comes back strong. If I shoot with 90% certainty, you grab the other 10% and bring us to 100% in the story.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Math.

[Bill Cates]

And I want to take a. Just a quick time out to meant to say to everybody listening, everybody who knows me knows I'm all about getting more referrals, becoming more referable. And this is the kind of conversation that will make an advisor more referable.

[Phil M. Jones]

Correct.

[Bill Cates]

Because you bring more to it than what they expected, but in a way that isn't disregarding or disrespecting why they came in the first place.

[Phil M. Jones]

Correct.

[Bill Cates]

It's rarely the product. It's almost always the process that makes you more referable.

[Phil M. Jones]

And in the medical industry, they say prescription before diagnosis is malpractice. Right. And the same is true in this business. If you jump straight to the I think that. Or there are three options for you. Which one do you think is best? Or here's a quote for what it is you've asked for. It's like you walking into the doctor and saying, what I think I need is blank and can you write me a script? And they write you a script and you're like, that's the worst doctor in the world.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right. Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

What you really want is a doctor to sit you down, zoom out a little, ask you about your symptoms fully Maybe run a test or two. And if they then make the recommendation of that drug or that prescription, your level of conviction is. Is greater.

[Bill Cates]

Sure.

[Phil M. Jones]

Of course, if they also share with you some lifestyle habits that you can change. If they also share with you some. Some non medical actions that you could take, you're like, oh, this guy cares, this guy girl cares not. I got my script. Because if it's about getting your script, you do. Now what my wife does when she knows there's a particular drug she needs a refill from, from, she finds the online pharmacy that has the lowest out of pocket price point that will deliver it to her home where she doesn't have to go to CVS to speak to a doctor.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

Because it's easy. And the same will happen for financial advice.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah, good.

[Bill Cates]

Well, let's keep going with the questions and this is good.

[Phil M. Jones]

And we can keep staying in curiosity. When you've got some method, people often ask like, well, what are your motivations, what are you hoping to achieve, etc. I'm finding out your motivations, your fears and your challenges by not asking for them directly. What I then remember is people make decisions based on emotion over logic. Like emotion comes first. So I'll ask a future conditional feeling question which is a how would you feel if Question. I understand. I know what motivates people is either to run towards something that makes them feel comfortable, it's to run away from something that's making them feel uncomfortable, or to do something that for selfish reason lights them up inside. So I can take a scenario like having insufficient life assurance and I could say, well, how would you feel if through lack of information that you were actually ending up being underinsured? You'd feel pretty stupid.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

So I want to, I want to push back on this, please. I mean, I certainly agree with what you're saying. I feel that this could be a setup question.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Bill Cates]

It's kind of like the car dealer is like, if I could.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

Then would you. So how. How do you feel about. I don't know, I guess I'm a little cynical on that one. Well, help me with that.

[Phil M. Jones]

Well, this is about specificity.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

If you're lazy with the how would you feel if question, where what you do is you jump to something that is so freaking obvious.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

That you make the other person feel stupid in their response or a well, of course type response, which is what you're referring to here.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yes.

[Phil M. Jones]

They feel like they're being led. They feel like you're leaving the witness.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

We need to have a level of sensitivity to this. So I might start with a good news piece. Is. Is. Is. How would you feel if you knew that we've helped dozens of entrepreneurs in a similar situation to yours make sure they're fully protected in every area of life?

[Bill Cates]

That's good.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

So I might go to good news and comfort first.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

How would you feel if I just wrote what was you asked for and that ended up being an insufficient policy for you?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Not good. Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And how would you feel if we could zoom out and just take a look at the bigger picture and make sure that not only are you fully protected, but your investments are being considered in this too?

[Bill Cates]

Well, you know, George said he had a great experience with this with you, so I'm open to it.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

So it's about the specificity that comes behind it rather than the word trigger, Right?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yes.

[Phil M. Jones]

I hear you can use anything for good or evil. The intention and the. Yes, but what I'm looking for is. I'm trying to say, is this worth it?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

Because you might say, well, like, I'm covered there, etc. This is just about me, you know, I need a policy in place. I need it quickly because I can't get this until I've got that, and I need it by Friday. Okay. So how would you feel if we can get this done for you by Friday? You feel pretty smart.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

All right, good.

[Phil M. Jones]

And how would you feel if we could sit down after that and explore the possibilities of doing more business together?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

That's kind of an easy yes.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

But you also know that some people are more visual than they are feelings based. Yes. Some people like to watch, and they watch in their mind's eye as well as they watch on a screen.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yes.

[Phil M. Jones]

So another tool in place of how would you feel if. Is to invite them to see things ahead of time with the preface of words, just imagine right now. Just imagine you have the confidence to know you're adequately protected in every area of your life. Pretty freeing or no. Just imagine finding yourself in a situation that you had a policy in place, but that policy was not enforceable because of some minor discrepancy.

[Bill Cates]

I use that a lot with people who are interested in me coaching them because I want them to imagine a successful outcome.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

Not in a way to trick them. I just want them to be clear on what they. What would success be to them. And I want to make sure I feel good, that I can help them with that. If they have an unrealistic expectation or imagination, then that's not good.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

And just imagine that we could get this all connected up with all of your other financial assets in place so that you felt fully protected.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Good.

[Phil M. Jones]

But what's nice is if I use how would you feel? If. How would you feel?

[Bill Cates]

If.

[Phil M. Jones]

How would you feel if I feel like I'm leading the witness.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

If I use Just imagine. Just imagine. Just imagine I feel like I'm leading the witness. But if I play those two together, then what I can do is I can take somebody on a journey of is it worth it? I can help them see the bigger picture. And then what I can do is having created a new frame at the beginning with a what do you understand? Question to blow the world up, I can then create order amongst the chaos at the end of a series of perspective changes by borrowing an existing neuro pathway, which comes from the fact that many of us as kids receive statements like if you don't eat your dinner, then you're not going to get any dessert. And if you're not back by eight, then you're going to be grounded for the weekend. And if you don't do your homework, then you're not going to get good grades. And if you don't get good grades and you're not going to get to go to a good college like if then has been a remarkably useful neuropathway that's been carved into many of our existences. So we can borrow it and we can say, look, if you're serious about creating, you know, a meaningful insurance plan for you and your family, then you're in the right place. And what we've done is we've taken somebody on a full journey where we've just garnered a huge amount of context and we're now in a new setup point where we're going side by side towards a new picture that we've created in a frame that's been agreed upon.

[Bill Cates]

By both parties and that's allowing the advisor to express a level of confidence that they can help them, which I think the prospect needs to hear.

[Phil M. Jones]

Correct. And the prospect feels like you understand the landscape.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

See, if you try to sell somebody on your solution, they'll often say that's not the problem. If you show somebody you understand their problem fully, they'll trust you with a solution without even needing to know what it is.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

And this is what I feel that advisors can do a way better job with is if they slow the process down, they can speed the outcome up. And we talk about that within exactly what to say and I was further reinforced of this being a useful belief system when I did some work with the U.S. marines. And I found out that one of the mantras that they have when they go into a hostile scenario, scenario is they have a mantra that slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay?

[Bill Cates]

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

[Phil M. Jones]

That's what they say to themselves when they're going into a clearing of a building where they fear that there might be a shooter inside or that they're worried somebody's planted a booby trap or a bomb or etc. Is if they want to get this done quickly, they do it slowly. Because slow is smooth and smooth is fast. It's when people are trying to rush at things, they create more chaos. And advisors do this inside their client relationships because we jump to conclusions too quickly, we make recommendations too quickly. Selling is earning the right to make a recommendation. That's what selling is. And what that means is you should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever advise anybody to do anything unless you can say these words first. And the words I believe you should look to say first are the words because of the fact that you said. Because of the fact that you said blank. Blank. For those reasons, I'd recommend blank, blank and blank. Such an easy framework in theory, a way more challenging framework in practice because you have to collect the blanks. And most advisors do not have either the patience or the skill set in order to be able to collect a meaningful body of evidence to create bigger sets of recommendations. And the payoff of doing this right is you realize that there is a bigger piece of that you can support in that family's wealth creation plan than what you currently thought success was looking like. And it doesn't become do I win or do I lose? It becomes how much can I win by? And how much more of service can I be to this individual by seeking a puzzle that is even more relevant to that person's circumstances?

[Bill Cates]

I think the industry has done this to themselves in the sense that there's so much product knowledge, training, 100%, and that's important. I'm not saying that you shouldn't understand. And then when you get into other advisors, agents sharing best practices, they talk about certain questions, certain things, but they're also narrow.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yep.

[Bill Cates]

They're also geared towards selling more life insurance or capturing the assets or it's. And I suppose they've had some success at that. So I don't want to begrudge their success. And in the long run, I don't think that's in the best interest of the client, nor the advisor. That's kind of what you're saying, Right?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Well.

[Phil M. Jones]

And it will commoditize the service. And if the service gets commoditized to a point that it is simply productized and the advisor becomes irrelevant. And if you're in the guise of remaining relevant, then the number one thing that can prevent you from losing your relevance is to realize that you don't need to be an expert in financial services. You need to be an expert in the person that you're trying to help with financial service products. And your knowledge and expertise of financial service products is always going to be necessary. But that's table stakes.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yes.

[Phil M. Jones]

That doesn't win you the game. That just gets you in the game. What gets you in the game is your relationship with that individual, your deep knowledge and understanding of their needs. And also realizing that most clients have no idea what they need.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Correct.

[Bill Cates]

They think they know.

[Phil M. Jones]

Correct.

[Bill Cates]

Well, and that's. That's. The Internet has done that.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

People come thinking they know. That's. Doctors, hate WebMD.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

So I got two kind of related questions. One is, as you know, one of the biggest challenges that we have is inertia.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

Someone is in either doing nothing.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

Or they're moving in a direction that they find difficult to change.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Bill Cates]

Whether it's working with another advisor or just, you know, stay the course.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yep.

[Bill Cates]

And that creates inaction.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yep.

[Bill Cates]

So any thoughts on whether it's questions they ask or things to say that can help cut through that and bring people to take action a little sooner than necessary? That's in their best interest.

[Phil M. Jones]

100%. And remember, I said that if you learn the scales, you can play them with any piece of music. I'm going to show you the exact same sequence of cards to a completely different set of circumstances.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

All right.

[Phil M. Jones]

We're going to start by using an opening fat question because we need to create control in this scenario. This is somebody who isn't acting as quick as they possibly could do.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

What's the product? They're not acting.

[Bill Cates]

Well, let's make this different. More. Let's make this more about investments and moving their finances. They've been trying to do it themselves. Or they've got money with an advisor who barely is in touch with them, and they just know they could do better.

[Phil M. Jones]

Okay, so we're going to use opening fat question. So we're talking today because you're hyper aware that you're going to need to change something and that you're Committed to being able to make sure that your retirement is as lucrative as possible.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

You don't love being the manager of your funds yourself and there are better things that you could be doing with your time.

[Bill Cates]

That's correct.

[Phil M. Jones]

And that you're keen to be able to make sure that you don't pay more than what you need to for service of this nature. For sure.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right? Yes.

[Phil M. Jones]

Polite opening, mutually agreeable facts.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

Easy to answer question, we just built a frame, okay. And what they're currently doing is they're procrastinating. So I now need to be able to build my case further. So following an opening fat question is I'm going to build a past, present, future arc.

[Bill Cates]

Okay?

[Phil M. Jones]

So I'm going to ask firstly, past question is, so where are you invested right now? What do you have as your like your past relationship with investing?

[Bill Cates]

Well, I've got my 401k and that's in some formula that they put it in. And I've got some other money, I think they call it non qualified or something. I'm just doing role play here, friends. I actually know what that is. So I have some cash that I, you know, I've got a Fidelity etf, some other things.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Bill Cates]

I have to pull it all together. I haven't done that yet.

[Phil M. Jones]

So I'm going to get you to paint your picture out of where you're coming from. Now I'm going to get to current situation, my current situation question might be, well, so how's that all working out for you?

[Bill Cates]

Well, I'm here, aren't I?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

Quick piece of punctuation which is you then saying, well, not so good.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

And I can now ask a future facing question which is a. So where are you hoping to go from here?

[Bill Cates]

And so we could get a couple answers, right? We could get, well, I could be clear on what I want.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

Or I could say I'm not actually sure.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Bill Cates]

And I think a lot of people may say that, right. I'm not actually sure what's possible.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Bill Cates]

I'm not sure what I should be looking for because I don't know enough about it.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

So I could then paraphrase that back and say, so what you're looking for is to feel confident that the course of action, the plans that you're having are the right choices for you.

[Bill Cates]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

Yes. So I could say when you say you're not sure is what you're actually looking for is to be sure. Yes, that's right.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yes.

[Phil M. Jones]

So what it is, I got past I got your present for you to admit that you're definitely not happy. So you're definitely changing something. Yes. And your future is. I don't have a plan. And I'd like to have a plan.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

That I feel confident in control of. What I'm then going to do is, is I'm going to come to the same set of questions and I'm going to say, well, what do you understand about all of your options when it comes to getting financial advice for your investments?

[Bill Cates]

Not a lot. I'm kind of confused.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And I'm going to ask a. Well, what is your experience of your existing relationship?

[Bill Cates]

I barely hear from the guy.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And I might then ask is, well, how certain are you that you want to make a change?

[Bill Cates]

I. I don't know.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Bill Cates]

I mean, I think that's a fair response. I think.

[Phil M. Jones]

I think so, too, because you get.

[Bill Cates]

People that are indecisive.

[Phil M. Jones]

Absolutely.

[Bill Cates]

You also get people. I guess I'm being kind of easy in the sense of I'm admitting I'm confused and need help. Other people come in, they're there.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

But they don't want to admit they need help.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay. Right. Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

So when was the last time that you had a meaningful conversation with your existing advisor that you found helpful?

[Bill Cates]

That's been quite some time.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

How often do you feel connected to your existing advisory relationships?

[Bill Cates]

I mean, I got a couple million with the guy. I just don't understand. I mean, maybe it's just not enough money.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And for how long have you been thinking about making a change?

[Bill Cates]

Yeah. Probably about a year. It's been a little while, but it's on my mind.

[Phil M. Jones]

Look, what I've just patiently done, peeps, right, is I've just stayed in this curiosity piece for a while to help you realize that the problem we're trying to solve is a problem that is a recurring problem and is a problem that's been existing for some time.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

Are you more likely to be able to move quicker knowing that you've just admitted to me that this is not a new discovery?

[Bill Cates]

So it's. It's. You're just trying to really understand this person.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

And.

[Bill Cates]

And it's almost like a series of tell me more, isn't it?

[Phil M. Jones]

Without saying that, yeah, too many times, what I can then ask, and I can start to scale the monster. I can ask, well. Well, how important is it to you that you get in control of the situation?

[Bill Cates]

Yeah, but that. Most people would say that's important.

[Phil M. Jones]

Yeah, but like, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being you'd like it to happen and 10 being that your life depends upon it. How important?

[Bill Cates]

Oh, innate.

[Phil M. Jones]

Okay, so what are the consequences of you not getting control of this?

[Bill Cates]

Where I am now, which is not quite sure if I'm on the right path.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And what else?

[Bill Cates]

Probably missing a lot of opportunity.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

See, now that I'm not getting the exact outcome I'm looking for, I go back in the sequence.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

I go right back to the beginning again. I go. What do you understand about the opportunity cost of not being properly invested?

[Bill Cates]

Help me with that.

[Phil M. Jones]

Okay, well, what is your experience of understanding compound interest?

[Bill Cates]

I know it's good. I know I got in the game a little late, but I tried to catch up some.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

How certain are you that your current situation is not costing money?

[Bill Cates]

Oh, it's probably costing you money.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

How important is it to you at this stage of your life to not cost yourself any unnecessary money?

[Bill Cates]

Pretty important. By the way, I should say for folks who are just listening is Phil is holding up a set of cards that he has created. And I. I'm guessing, Phil, someone isn't going to bring the stack of 100 cards.

[Phil M. Jones]

No.

[Bill Cates]

But they probably should have it in their notes, a little cheat sheet for themselves to know these are the types of questions and be reminded of. Of these things.

[Phil M. Jones]

Be patient enough to be able to say that I can move forward, and then if I hit resistance, I can move backwards, I can move forwards. I can move backwards in a sequence of questions. Now I get to a point that Bill, in this conversation, has realized my current situation is not neutral. My current situation is expensive.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

That's a different belief.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Definitely.

[Bill Cates]

The cost of doing nothing without setting that person up. Feeling like you're setting them up.

[Phil M. Jones]

Correct.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

I can now create movement. Hey, could it be possible that us getting our handles around this could start earning you money in the right order as early as, like, end of month?

[Bill Cates]

So at what point in this process, as we kind of wrap this up, what's the next step? Are we now going into an advisor's more traditional, you know, fact finder discovery meeting?

[Phil M. Jones]

Potentially.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

Potentially. But I think what we all need to be focused on is let's get a bigger field of play before we start closing doors.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

And, you know, could it be possible that we need to be looking at not only your retirement plans, not only your existing investments, perhaps opening some new investments, perhaps considering the level these investments are being funded and ensuring that all of our protections are in place to.

[Bill Cates]

All right, so I Lied. I have one more question. Let's say we haven't really done this with our clients. We're having some success. So, yeah, we're doing well, making good money, but we want to get better. Can we bring some of this to our existing clients?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

And how do we do that? How do we do that without letting them know we haven't been complete?

[Phil M. Jones]

Well, what we do is we go back to our existing clients with an opening fact question.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

Let's say this is a client you've had for three years. You've got funds under management. You did the life insurance policies. You send them a Christmas card, you send them a birthday card. They get a monthly email from you with an update on the market conditions, and then you invite them to a couple of events. Right. Like this stuff happens.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

And you realize that you want to get more emotionally attached to them because you realize then that you don't have the level and strength of relationship that you'd like to have. And you're probably leaving money on the table.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

That's the situation.

[Bill Cates]

I see.

[Phil M. Jones]

You go back with an opening back question. I go, hey, Bill, it's been four years that we've been working together at this point in time. And it feels like yesterday that you were here in the office and we were mapping out what it was going to take to be able to help support your investment, support your life plan, and for you to come on board as a client. These are my mutually agreeable facts. I'm going to put another mutually agreeable fact in there. I'm also realizing that we could have or that we now could be serving you better in this next phase of your wealth plan. That's another mutually agreeable fact because they're probably thinking it too. But note the word could.

[Bill Cates]

Good. And next phase. I like both of those.

[Phil M. Jones]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

What we're doing is we're framing this as we did nothing wrong and now we're somewhere new and we're leading the dance. I now need an easy to answer question.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

Easy to answer question is, are you still looking to maximize your retirement? Of course.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

What do you understand about what more we could be doing for you?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

I don't know. Right.

[Bill Cates]

Tell me, what has your experience been.

[Phil M. Jones]

Like working with us up until now?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Been great. Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

What three things you like best about working with us?

[Bill Cates]

You're responsive. You get back to me quickly. Staff is great. You always feel respected, treated. I think you're smart about what the actions we've taken. I feel like we made good decisions.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

And what else?

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

I don't know.

[Bill Cates]

You're fishing for compliments.

[Phil M. Jones]

All right, well, let's come to the other way.

[Bill Cates]

I like the way you dress.

[Phil M. Jones]

If there was one thing you could change about the way that we work for you right now, what could we do better?

[Bill Cates]

I don't know. I mean, I've often wondered about annuities and whether, you know, I know that some people think annuities are good, some are bad, some don't. We not really talked about that. I don't know whether that's something that we should explore as I'm getting a little older, if that makes sense. I mean, I do wonder about that. Okay, so it's more of a product oriented as opposed to, you know, your relationship.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Okay.

[Phil M. Jones]

So how certain are you that we're the right fit for you long term?

[Bill Cates]

Well, I feel pretty good about it.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

So when was the last time you dropped by the office?

[Bill Cates]

Now you're asking me? Yeah, I'm in this role play.

[Phil M. Jones]

Sure.

[Bill Cates]

One time, the last time I dropped by your office.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Bill Cates]

Well, it's six months ago.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

We had our review meeting.

[Phil M. Jones]

Okay, well, how important is it to you that you know whether annuities are a good part, good idea for you or not?

[Bill Cates]

I'm kind of relying on you for that because I know they're different kinds, they do things and I'm just wondering, am I a candidate?

[Phil M. Jones]

Okay, so could it be possible that it that we should get some time on the schedule for you to come by the office and for us to. Yeah, really zoom out again and write a new day one and, and see if everything we've got is right for right now and help you feel confident about what's happening next.

[Bill Cates]

Yeah, I'm good with that.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right. Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

So we've done is we've used the same sequence to get to a point that we're having a meeting.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Gotcha.

[Phil M. Jones]

But what have I done? If I've said, well, what do you understand about how we can help you better? You've said, not much. I said, what is your experience been like with us up until right now? You've said, well, it's been pretty darn good. I said, what three things you like best. You've told me I've then given you permission to be able to tell me anything that's less than right. I've said, like, how certain are you that we want to keep this moving forward? You said, yes. I said, when was the last time that we spent some meaningful time together? We said, like, it's not been for Long enough. I said, could it be possible that us putting some caring, loving time on this would help us find the clarity we're looking for? You said yes now. Now we've got a new frame again.

[Bill Cates]

I think. I think the. One of the big lessons here is the style or genre of your language is very. It's very invitational. You're inviting people into the conversation, and I think that's a point you want to make. You're not telling them what to do. You're inviting them into possibilities.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yep.

[Phil M. Jones]

And we're not trying to go too far too quickly.

[Bill Cates]

And if someone asks for recommendation at some point, you're going to recommend 100%.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

And I would trust the fact that everybody listening to this is very capable of being able to make the right recommendation for the right person.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Bill Cates]

Well, we kind of know that's there. Right? That's a given.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

But it's making the right recommendation to the right person at the right time.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

That's what I'm trying to get you into position for, is like every great boxer knows how to throw a punch, but if you don't know the time to be able to throw that punch, you don't win the fight.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Right.

[Phil M. Jones]

And I think this is what we struggle with. With our client relationships. How many times you sat there by yourself thinking about what you could or should or would have done with that client? How many times are you thinking about how much more value you could be for them if only they would share blank or if only they understood blank? And we either need to maximize the moments we find ourselves in, or more often than not, from a financial advisor's point of view, is create new moments.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yes. Yes.

[Phil M. Jones]

That you can then engineer bigger conversations. That you can then help them realize how much more value.

[Bill Cates]

And that's the answer to how do you go back? You create new moments in these conversations.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Good.

[Bill Cates]

Phil. Hal, I know you give speeches. I know you consult with companies. Tell me what you do.

[Phil M. Jones]

I'm on a mission to help more people understand exactly what to say. I'm on a mission to help people understand that the worst time to think about the thing you're going to say is in the moment you're saying it. We've helped 3 million people up until right now bring some more intention to the language through reading the book. Exactly what to say. If you haven't read the book exactly what to say, go find yourself where books are sold a copy of exactly what to say and invest 72 minutes of your time to be able to get cover to cover and see if there is some more intentional language you can bring to your day to day. Best place to start. Is there anything you've enjoyed about today's discussion or the book is come continue the conversation with me online. Easiest place to find me is Instagram. I'm philemjonesuk or swing by the website philemjones.com and we can continue the convo there.

[Bill Cates]

Phil M. Jones. The M is critical because probably a lot of Phil Jones out there you go.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Bingo.

[Phil M. Jones]

And worse than that, Bill is if you type Phil Jones speaker.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah.

[Phil M. Jones]

You find a bass amplifier company, a legitimate company that make bass amplifiers in the music industry called Phil Jones Speakers. So which I'm up against it the matters.

[Bill Cates]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Yeah. Well, good.

[Bill Cates]

Hey, pleasure having you on Top Advisor podcast. You're one smart guy and I just. I just love your approach to exactly what to say, exactly what they ask. And now we know exactly what to do.

[Phil M. Jones]

Thank you my man. Always a pleasure to chat.

[Bill Cates]

The Top Advisor podcast is sponsored by Proudmouth, creators of the Pod Rocket Academy. And this episode has been sponsored by Harbor Capital Advisors and Ironclad Family, the creators of IVAultX. To you, the listener of this podcast, may I ask a small favor? If you like this episode or like the podcast in general, please leave a five star review on the platform you're listening to this show. Not all platforms have a place for reviews, but if yours does, I'd be grateful.

[Interviewer/Host Assistant]

Thank you.

[Bill Cates]

If you haven't already, here are four places you'll want to visit. For my latest book, go to languageofreferrals.com that's languageofreferrals.com for a bunch of guides, checklists, scripts, videos, etc. Go to referralcoach.com resources referralcoach.com resources for the most comprehensive referrals and introductions training on the planet, go to thecatesacademy.com that's thekatesacademy.com and finally, to check out the coaching I do with Advisors, go to CoachCates.com that's CoachCates.com this is Bill Cates reminding you that ideas do not make you more successful. Only acting on those ideas will bring you the success you desire. Thanks for stopping by. Thank you for listening to the Top Advisor podcast brought to you by Proud Mouse Pod Rocket Academy. I encourage you to Visit my website referralcoach.com for links to my books, online courses and to register for the Cates Academy.