Abigail Pogrebin, IT TAKES TWO TO TORAH: An Orthodox Rabbi and Reform Journalist Discuss and Debate Their Way Through the Five Books of Moses

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Totally Booked with Zibby
Host: Zibby Owens
Guest: Abigail Pogrebin
Episode: Abigail Pogrebin, IT TAKES TWO TO TORAH
Air Date: December 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features Zibby Owens in conversation with acclaimed author, journalist, and Jewish community leader Abigail Pogrebin, focusing on her collective work around Jewish identity. Key topics include her books My Jewish Year, One and the Same, and her latest, It Takes Two to Torah. The discussion explores modern Jewish identity, the richness (and challenges) of engaging with Jewish holidays, the experience of being an identical twin, and the necessity for preparation, learning, and communal unity—especially in the wake of October 7th and rising antisemitism. The conversation balances humor, personal anecdote, incisive self-reflection, and thoughtful cultural critique.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Abigail Pogrebin’s Jewish Journey & Writing Background

• Upbringing & Family Influence – Grew up in a feminist, somewhat observant Jewish household; her mother, Letty Cottin Pogrebin, was a co-founder of Ms. Magazine and instrumental in “Free to Be… You and Me.” Despite this, Abigail wasn't Bat Mitzvahed and felt a gap in her Jewish education as an adult.

  “My mother... was also a very observant Jew ... but not so much the structure of a Jewish life. I didn't go to Hebrew school. I was not a Bat Mitzvah. And I began to miss that when I became an adult.” (06:27)

• Professional Shift Toward Jewish Exploration – Trained as a journalist and TV news producer, Abigail shifted her focus to Jewish learning and writing after becoming a mother and questioning what she’d pass on.

  “Sometimes you have that inflection point where you're feeling like you're missing something, like there's sort of a gap... I just became so kind of alive with Jewish study.” (07:50)

• Jewish Celebrity Interviews as Entry Point – She interviewed 60+ prominent American Jews as a novel way to explore identity, which led to more formal Jewish study.

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My Jewish Year: Rediscovering the Jewish Calendar

• Project Description – Abigail marked and deeply observed all 18 Jewish holidays in a year, writing about her experiences, from the mundane to the profound.

  “I call it Extreme Sport Judaism... I feel like every Jew should be able to explain that. And that's not a judgment. I just feel like sometimes Jewish identity can be more wobbly if it's not grounded in just more understanding.” (09:42)

• Accessible, Relatable Style – Zibby praises the humor and relatability, such as the “cut the shofar” moment with Abigail’s husband.

  Zibby: “…you have these funny scenes, like when you're learning to play the shofar and your husband yells from the next room, 'Cut the shofar.'” (09:34)

• Learning Through Immersion and Interviews – Abigail learned by immersing herself in traditions, talking to diverse rabbis, and translating these experiences for secular or unfamiliar audiences.

  “I decided to basically mark and observe and experience every single holiday in the Jewish calendar in real time. …I interviewed over 60 rabbis...” (09:57)

• Diverse Perspectives on Jewish Practice – The holiday of Sukkot illustrated how four rabbis offered “four different takes,” underscoring the pluralism in Judaism.

• The Power of Appointed Time – Contrasted the asynchrony of modern life with the synchrony of Jewish ritual, drawing a parallel between the communal observance of holidays and events like the Super Bowl.

  “Judaism is not like that... Kol Nidre, the night before Yom Kippur happens, when it happens... there's something powerful about in a way, saying we're all gonna do this now, wherever you are in your life.” (15:14)

• Candid about Level of Observance – “I have not become an observant Jew, but I do think there's something about dipping a toe into the tradition a little more.” (13:21)

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Navigating Modern Jewish Identity

• Struggles with Knowledge & Participation – Both Zibby and Abigail acknowledged the challenge of “so many holidays and not even know about them,” speaking to a widespread disconnect even among proud Jews.

• Evolution of Holidays – Not all Jewish holidays are ancient; for instance, Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) was shaped by modern Israeli history and debated in the Knesset.

  “...there was debate about where to place it in the calendar. Not all these holidays come from Sinai, so to speak. They were created in my parents’ lifetime.” (14:01)

• Tradition as Grounding Force – Reading the Torah and participating in ancient rituals provided Abigail powerful grounding in history and community.

  “I am reading what people have read thousands of years, over and over. And there's something that—how can that not ground you in history and in life?” (14:45, paraphrased)

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One and the Same: Reflections on Twinship

• Exploring Twin Identity – Abigail is an identical twin and wrote a book exploring adult twin relationships, their psychological intricacies, and their impact on identity.

  “...there were all these books about telling parents how to raise twins... What there wasn’t was a book that interviewed adult twins and said, what was it like?” (22:32)

• Her Experience with Robyn – She and her sister Robyn are deeply close; the bond is described as “carrying someone else through your life.”

  “There is a closeness that can't be described. It's kind of its own intimacy... When she's unhappy, I'm unhappy. When she's joyful, it's my joy too.” (24:30)

• Caveat to Parents of Twins – Advocates for intentional moments of separation to foster individual identities:

  “…even if the twins don't want to be apart...there still has to be moments where you say, you know, let's go get a bagel together… It was just an assumption that we were a set. And I think that had a certain kind of toll in just making sure you kind of know who you are apart.” (25:51)

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Moderating, Interviewing, and the Art of Preparedness

• Career Shift: After a career as a TV producer, Abigail found joy and fulfillment as a moderator for Jewish and general audiences, including her show In the Spotlight on JBS.

  “I loved asking questions... I was so proud to be a producer...But as you know, you're behind the scenes...I often wanted to be the one who was saying, oh, this is what I wish I could ask.” (27:50)

• Preparation is Key – Both Abigail and Zibby emphasize the value of research and preparation in conducting meaningful interviews.

  “I am an anal preparer. I want to make sure I've kind of read as much as I can and listened to other interviews. And then you're sitting there and you're just listening and you're hoping that something you hear is going to spark the next question...” (29:20)

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The Stakes of Jewish Community in 2024–25

• October 7th Aftermath & Antisemitism – Abigail reflects somberly on the rise of antisemitism and the painful divisions it has revealed, including within feminism.

  “Just the instantaneous antisemitism is still something I can't get over. And particularly the denial, the sexual attacks—and if not denial, the silence from feminist organizations with which and around which I was raised—all of this has been disillusioning.” (32:54)

• Surge in Jewish Learning as Response – Notices (and champions) the increase in people pursuing Jewish study, conversion, and ritual as a positive response.

  “…part of what's the toll that's been taken in our society… is just the absence of learning and preparation and understanding something before you expound on it or rail about something.” (32:48)

• Warning Against Infighting – Both see polarization within the Jewish community as a major challenge, recalling rabbinic wisdom that warns internal divisions are as dangerous as external threats.

  “You see that the rabbis said that the second temple destruction was because of Sinat Chinam, which is baseless hatred of each other.” (35:29)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I call it Extreme Sport Judaism...” (09:42, Abigail)
• “Judaism is not like that... Kol Nidre, the night before Yom Kippur happens, when it happens... there's something powerful about in a way, saying we're all gonna do this now…” (15:14, Abigail)
• “When you really stop to think about twins… there is literally another you, essentially, except for your soul…” (26:19, Zibby)
• “There is a closeness that can't be described. It's kind of its own intimacy that people don't fully understand…” (24:30, Abigail)
• “Preparation generally in life, whether it's a job interview or it's a dinner party… is actually going to just make for a more alive experience for you…” (31:05, Abigail)
• “Just the instantaneous antisemitism is still something I can't get over…” (32:54, Abigail)
• “The second temple destruction was because of Sinat Chinam, which is baseless hatred of each other… this is what takes us down… it was the way we were basically shooting in a circle.” (35:29, Abigail)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:07 – Introduction of Abigail’s background and literary highlights
• 06:22 – Abigail’s Jewish upbringing and journey to writing
• 09:42 – The genesis and ethos of My Jewish Year
• 11:10 – Sukkot anecdote: Learning via interviews across denominations
• 14:45 – On ritual, community, and what binds Jews together
• 22:32 – Exploration of identical twinhood and the writing of One and the Same
• 27:29 – Shift from producing to moderating and public interviewing
• 31:30 – On the value of preparation and its broader societal absence
• 32:54 – Abigail’s post-Oct 7 reflections & the dangers of internal community division
• 35:29 – Rabbinic warnings against “Sinat Chinam” (baseless hatred)
• 36:16 – Closing thoughts and mutual appreciation

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is candid, warm, and intellectually vibrant—balancing humor and depth. It grapples with the lived realities of Jewish practice, the complexities of identity (religious and personal), and the urgency for solidarity and meaningful engagement in a moment of profound upheaval and challenge for the Jewish community. Both Zibby and Abigail model a Jewish curiosity and gravitas, inviting listeners—regardless of background—to reflect, learn, and participate.

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Recommended for:

• Listeners seeking insight into modern Jewish life, rituals, and community
• Those interested in memoir, identity, and family relationships
• Anyone grappling with questions of tradition, community, and contemporary challenge

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Find Abigail Pogrebin’s books at your local independent bookstore or online retailers. For more author interviews, visit zibbymedia.com.

Transcript

[Abigail Pogrebin]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[Abigail Pogrebin]

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[Abigail Pogrebin]

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Hi.

[Zibby Owens]

This is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibyoans.

Abigail Poggerman is the author of My Jewish Eighteen Holidays, One Wandering Jew, which was a finalist for the 2018 National Jewish Book Award. She is also the author of Stars of Prominent Jews Talk About Being Jewish, for which she interviewed 62 famous American Jews, from Ruth Bader Ginsburg to Steven Spielberg about their religious identity. Her 2024 book It Takes Two to Torah, an Orthodox rabbi and Reformed journalist discuss and debate their way through the five Books of Moses was co authored with Rabbi Dov Linzer, President of YCT Rabbinical School, and won the 2025 Independent Press Award for Religion nonfiction. Her book One and the Same delved into every aspect of growing up as a twin of which Abby is one the identical kind. Her best selling Kindle single Showstopper chronicled her teenage adventures on Broadway in the original production of Stephen Sondheim's Merrily We Roll Along. She was an Emmy nominated producer for Mike Wallace at 60 Minutes and before that for Bill Moyers and Charlie Rose at pbs. She has moderated conversations at the Stryker center, the JJCC in Manhattan, UJA Federation, and the Shalom Hartman Institute, and her written articles have appeared in the New York Times, the Atlantic, the Forward, Tablet, Vogue, and Harper's Bazaar. Tablet magazine's podcast Parsha in Progress featured a regular Torah discussion with Abigail and Rabbi Dov Linzer. Abby received the Impact Award from the JCC in Manhattan and the Community Leader Award from the Jewish Week in 2017. She served as president of Central Synagogue from 2015-18 and was director of Jewish outreach for Michael Bloomberg's 2020 presidential campaign. I was also on her show in the Spot with Abigail Poggerman, which is on the JBS Network, which is what my show is on so you can listen to us there. Enjoy. Welcome Abbie. Thank you so much for coming on. Totally booked to talk about my Jewish year 18 holidays. One wandering Jew wondering. Wandering like the pun. It's perfect. Yeah. And so much else. So welcome.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Thank you. It's so great to be here. I'm a fan.

[Zibby Owens]

I'm a fan too. I most recently saw you, by the way, when you interviewed Sarah Hurwitz and Dara Horne and Dan Senor at the Stryker center, which was, by the way, one of my favorite events I've ever attended. I Was like, oh my gosh. And you were deft. You deftly monitored it. That was tough.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yeah, they're a handful. I mean, they're each an interview by themselves. So yes, it was, it was like a. I mean, such a blessing to have all three of them, but oh my gosh.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, that was, it was amazing. Like powerhouse extraordinaire. And by the way, I first started following you, by the way, when I read your book about your sister, your identical twin sister. And so I read that when it first came out, which I then looked up because I was like, when was that? 2010, I guess.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yes.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh my gosh. So anyway, I read it then and then. So I've been kind of following you since then and watching as you've advocated for Jews and so much else. And it's just been amazing to see your whole career.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

So let's just go back a smidge. I want to get to this book, My Jewish Year, but give listeners a little bit of background on how you even became a writer. The book I just mentioned, your other fabulous book interviewing Jewish leaders and everything.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yeah. So I grew up on the Upper west side, as many Jews did.

And my mother, Leti Cotton Pogrebin was a co founder. Is a co founder of Ms. Magazine, which I hope some people remember she co founded obviously with Gloria Steinem, who was at the helm and four other women. And my mom, also with Marlo Thomas, co created Free to Be youe and Me. So I just mentioned that because it was kind of the crucible of my childhood was this kind of feminist awakening that my mother was having. But she was also a very observant Jew, growing up in Queens and giving us a home based Judaism, but not so much the structure of a Jewish life. I didn't go to Hebrew school. I was not a Bat Mitzvah. And I began to miss that when I was became an adult. And it was before I had my first child. I went to Yale and I started to study Hebrew and Jewish texts and literature. I just, you know, sometimes you have that inflection point where you're feeling like you're missing something, like there's sort of a gap. And it was a little bit slapdash how I filled that gap mostly with learning through literature, Hebrew, but not so much Jewish study. And then I had my first child. And as many know, that's often the moment where you kind of pause and say, wait a second, what am I giving my son in terms of Jewish identity and a Jewish life and frankly a coherent explanation for why he had a bris and why we have two seders a year, or in my case, a third seder, because I went to my mother's feminist seder and all the things that a Jewish life entails without really understanding it myself. And in a way, instead of doing Jewish study, I interviewed famous Jews. It was sort of a backdoor way of exploring an identity. I hadn't yet really kicked the tires on myself. So I interviewed everyone from Ruth Bader Ginsburg to Steven Spielberg about whether they cared about what they've been raised with, whether they held onto their Jewish education, whether their kids were Jewish, how they felt if their kids didn't have a Jewish identity. And in order to prepare for those interviews, I did start to study. I read Torah for the first time. And it sounds like, oh, I drank the Kool Aid. But I just became so kind of alive with Jewish study. It just. It kind of ignited for me. And I kind of abandoned my more traditional journalist's hat because I worked for 60 Minutes, as you may know. I produced for Mike Wallace and Ed Bradley and before that, Charlie Rose and MacNeil Lehrer and Bill Moyers. I just suddenly became, like, my focus became the Jewish life and interviewing Jewish scholars and rabbis and just trying to understand our tradition kind of through a journalist' lens, but ending up really feeling galvanized as a Jew.

[Zibby Owens]

Wow. Well, when you felt galvanized, you then embarked on this fabulous project to go through 18 of the holidays. You were like, that's a good number. Obviously, for those who are not Jewish, who are listening, 18 signifies the chai, which is life and good luck and everything like that.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Exactly.

[Zibby Owens]

And so you picked these holidays and you take. I love how you write. It's so accessible, but beautiful. Like some lines just so sparing and yet so incisive. Oh, my gosh. And you have these funny scenes, like when you're learning to play the shofar and your husband yells for the next room, like, lay off the shofar.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Cut the shofar.

[Zibby Owens]

Cut the shofar. Right. That was even funnier. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so tell me about this fun project. It's like the Happiness Project for Jews, basically.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yes, it's true. I call it Extreme Sport Judaism, which is not fair, obviously, to any observant Jews who live this every day. But I just, again, was sort of frustrated by my ignorance. Like, what's the difference between shmeenat, sarat and shavuot? I wanna be able to explain that. I feel like every Jew should be able to explain that. And that's not a judgment. I just feel like sometimes Jewish identity can be more wobbly if it's not grounded in just more understanding. And I'm someone who often kind of comes to feeling through learning. So I decided to basically mark and observe and experience every single holiday in the Jewish calendar in real time. And I wrote it as a series for the forward, which then was adapted much more deeply for a book. And I interviewed over 60 rabbis and sch about the Jewish holidays. And I wasn't just kind of stamping my foot and saying, why should this matter in our contemporary life? But I was kind of saying, okay, let's take something like Sukkot, which I never observed growing up. We didn't build a sukkah. I didn't sleep or eat in the sukkah. What was I missing? You know? And I end up calling that chapter Sukkah Envy. Because when I interviewed, I went out to LA for that holiday, and I interviewed four rabbis in four sukkahs in two days. And it was David Wolpe, whom you know, from Temple Sinai, a Conservative massive synagogue with a huge Persian population. Naomi Levy, who had a synagogue without walls, on the beach, no building, but a real sense of kind of tactile Judaism. Sharon Brous, a lot more social justice Jew, also in her beautiful sukkah. And then Ed Feinstein, another Conservative Jew who's kind of like the Falstaff of tough talking and brilliant teacher. And what it basically just showed me is, first of all, four rabbis had four different takes on this holiday. One talked about imp the fact that we don't build. You know, sometimes once a year, Judaism kicks us out of our house and says, let's live in a hut that essentially is open to the. To the elements. And rain can fall on you, but you're open to the stars. And it's important to realize it's not just about our things, our nespresso machines and our comfy walls. But this is what our people did. They wandered and wandered for 40 years before getting the Torah. We should have a taste of that. And some talk about the value of getting lost. Because when our people were on our way to Sinai, they didn't know that the Promised Land or trust that the Promised Land was really going to be there. And some frankly talked about what it means to, you know, Sukkot is, in a way, a holiday. We kind of think like, oh, I've just had Yom Kippur and I've fasted for 25 hours. Really, I have to go into another holiday. But it is A holiday of joy. We are actually commanded to feel joy. And what does it mean to actually be told you should be joyful now? Especially after we've been pounding our chests and beating ourselves up with our s. So that's just one holiday and one example of where the teachers kind of opened a holiday. And it spoke to my life and in ways I'd never imagined before.

[Zibby Owens]

I mean, it probably sounds funny to people who are not Jewish that we could have so many holidays and not even know about them. I mean, right. Like, there is a Jewish holiday, like, every two days. It's always something. And I don't even really know what most of them are. But if somebody else were to say, wait, you're so into being Jewish, like, you don't know what Shavuot is? Or why are we all at midnight lining up on the street like, outside the JV or something? But it's true. Because there is just so much. And I feel like most Jewish people. I mean to. Well, maybe that's not even true. Most. A lot of Jewish people here in New York are high holiday Jews. Those are the ones that we know. And we go for Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, we have Passover, we have Hanukkah, and that's kind of it. But there are so many more.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

There's so many more. It's so true. And I would never. And part my book was. I'm not suggesting that those for whom the holidays are not going to be the scaffolding of their lives, the roadmap of their calendar. I get it. It wasn't for me either. It's still not like. Let me be honest, I have not become an observant Jew, but I do think there's something about dipping a toe into the tradition a little more. It's almost like, let's wade into the shallow end if we've never dipped a toe. Because there's something that happens when you kind of investigate what exists and say, why was this created? And why does it matter? And some of the holidays, by the way, are modern holidays. Like Yom Hashoah is a holiday that marks the Holocaust.

[Zibby Owens]

I know that one.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yeah. And there was. And it's actually a holiday that many rabbis told me is, quote, unquote, not working. Because it, first of all feels almost sacrilegious to think that one day could encapsulate a horror like that, that there's something wrong about it being one day. Others say if you don't even take one day to mark the extermination of Jews, 6 million Jews. Then you know, how are we possibly going to hold up and remember this crucial history? But it was a debate in the Knesset, in Israel, where that holiday should fall once they agreed that there should be one. And that's fascinating. Like some things that we take for granted we don't even think about. Like there was debate about where to place it in the calendar. Not all these holidays come from Sinai, so to speak. They were created in my parents lifetime.

[Zibby Owens]

And you also talk about the way it grounds us to do something that has been done over and over and over again. So when you had your adult Bat mitzvah and you were reading the Torah portion and you were like, not only do these letters make sense, but I am reading what people have read thousands of years on thousands of years, over and over. And there's something that. How can that not ground you in history and in life to know that, like those same words on a page, it's like we're all in a giant book club.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

It's exactly true. And it's like when we all sit at our seder tables. And granted there's a time difference, you know, if you're sitting in New York or Japan or in London, but there's something profound about the idea that we are all breaking the same matzah, that we are all hopefully having not under salted matzo ball soup like I grew up with. But there is something binding about tradition and ritual all happening at the same time. And one of the things about doing the Jewish calendar is you realize we're living in a time. I don't have to tell you, Zivi, because you are so social media facile where we can watch anything at any time. I don't have to go to the movies on anybody else's clock. I can watch a series or movies completely on my own time. I can take a yoga class on Zoom or on Peloton. I can do everything on my own schedule now. It's almost like a bespoke kind of smorgasbord. But Judaism is not like that. Like Kol Nidre, the night before Yom Kippur happens, when it happens. And if you haven't stopped working or if you haven't done, shop for your groceries. It's too bad the clock has run out. And I think there's something powerful about in a way, saying we're all gonna do this now, wherever you are in your life. And Shabbat is like that. And even though I'm not Shabbat, observant When I did the book, I really tried to be and have a taste of what it is to just stop, to just pause to say, abby, you know, you have this to do list and you're kind of an anal neurotic New Yorker, but you just actually, the Jewish clock is telling you the buzzer has sounded. And that's something that's, I think, kind of profound, that joins us all and is sometimes missing.

[Zibby Owens]

So true. It's like what's left. The super bowl and Cole Nidre.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

The book unto itself.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah. Right.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Kohl Nude and the Super Bowl. Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

What do they have in common?

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Appointment. Appointment. Togetherness.

[Zibby Owens]

Exactly. It's like this whole asynchronous life that we live and yet everybody just wants to gather. It's so. Everything has just spun off into. I think there will be a swinging back of the pendulum, you know, and I think the Jewish holidays are one of those weights that helps it swing back. But today's episode has been sponsored by quints. When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people really love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they will wear for years. So that's why I'm going with quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Quince has something for everyone. Soft cashmere sweaters for $50 that look and feel like designer pieces. Silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut jeans for everyday wear and outerwear that actually keeps you warm. I've been wearing my new quince coat with this collar on social media, so you should be able to see me wearing it on Instagram. Ibyowens. I love it and of course it would make a great gift. The Italian wool coats are also amazing standout pieces. Beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and crafted to last for the seasons. Every piece is made with premium materials from ethical trusted factories and priced far below what other luxury brands charge. The craftsmanship really shows in every detail. The stitching, the fit, the drape. It's elevated, timeless, and made to wear on repeat. There are just so many options. I can totally see myself giving my friends one of their beautiful options, like a sweater or one of their coats for someone really special. And as if that isn't enough, they also have stuff for home, bath, kitchen and travel. Come on, find gifts so good you'll want to keep them yourself with quince. Go to quince.com zibby for free shipping on your order. And 300165 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Zivi to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Gwin's.com Zivi.

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Okay, so you did this whole project. You also wrote about your twin sister. Can you talk about your relationship with Robyn and how that became a book?

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yes, and thanks for mentioning it. So I'm an identical twin, which I mentioned because there's a lot of twins now, and I don't denigrate the fraternal kind, but identical are, as some don't realize, it's not genetic. It's a fluke. And at the time that we, when we were kids, I mean, we look so alike that I can't tell myself in pictures. And that's not an exaggeration. Not to mention, you know, people sometimes don't like, really focus on the fact that our DNA is an exact replica of each other, which is kind of crazy. And what I saw was missing is there were all these books about telling parents how to raise twins. Do we dress them alike? Do we put them in the same bedroom? Do we put them in the same classroom? Those kinds of things. So I call them the twins. And I understand there's a place for those books. What there wasn't was a book that interviewed adult twins and said, what was it like? How did your identity play out? Were you able to individuate? Did you find a sense of yourself? And even for fraternal twins, the identity issues can be complicated. The comparison issues are constant. You know, the who's better at this, who's better at that, who's more athletic, who's thinner. I mean, it goes and goes and goes. And people think it's a sport that twins enjoy. And so part of this book, in addition to talking to geneticists, talking to psychologists, I basically said, I want to cover the landscape on twinship and really understand what is this world. And then I interviewed my sister and I interviewed my parents and I said, and I interviewed adult twins of everyone from the Barbers, Tiki and Randy Barber, who many know are famous to those who Aren't to say, how did this play out for you to go through your life essentially with a double? And it's called. It's called One and the Same.

[Zibby Owens]

I'm remembering now. So I had twins in 2007, so I think that's probably part of my fascination with. I had fraternal twins, but my uncles are identical twins. So we just have a lot of twins. A lot of twins. And, you know, this is a whole book. It took you to answer, but how has it been having a twin in life? Like, what is your main takeaway from that?

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yeah, I mean, first of all, Rob and I could not be closer. And we talk or text, you know, a thousand times a day. I would say, you know, for most twins, there is a closeness that can't be described. It's kind of its own intimacy that people don't fully understand. And maybe, you know, I'm sure you've had a taste of it, but there's a sense of carrying someone else through your life, if that makes sense. When she's unhappy, I'm unhappy. When she's joyful, it's my joy too. You know, so many people assume a competitiveness, a competition, and sometimes that's there, and sometimes it actually can be rending. But more often, and particularly with identical twins, there was a sense of almost like reflective, not glory, but pride, and also reflective despair when someone is struggling. And that's been very much true for me and Robyn. She's a journalist. She writes for the New York Times. We did both end up being writers, and there's no accident there. We both loved theater and we used to perform together and think there was nothing weird about that, like going to my parents dinner parties or being at my parents dinner parties and being like, and now it's time for Robyn and Abby to get up there. When I think about it, I cringe, but thank God we were young when we were doing it. But we took, like, such relish in showing up together and doing things together, and we never really wanted to be apart. And I would say the mistake that my parents acknowledge is that they never did anything with either of us alone. It's kind of a crazy thing to think about. They never spent time with either of us alone. And that's the thing I say in my book and recommend to parents is that there still has to be moments, even if the twins don't want to be a part of, where you say, you know, let's go get a bagel together, or let's go take this trip together. And you know, it's not that they never talked to us alone. It was just an assumption that we were a set. And I think that had a certain kind of toll in just making sure you kind of know who you are apart.

[Zibby Owens]

I mean, when you really stop to think about twins and think that there is literally another you, essentially, except for your soul and all the. You know, the impact. And you think about the impact of cloning and all the things in the news that we talk about, and it's amazing. I don't know. It's just, like, completely fascinating. And I know people talk about twins in their books like yours, but, I mean, everyone needs to just stop and just pause and reflect on how this.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Like, how crazy it is. I know.

[Zibby Owens]

I know my uncles often, like, they always, like, end up buying the same gift for everybody, and they have, like, all these things that they do that just like.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yeah. I mean, Robyn and I will show up at the same party without having discussed it in the same outfit. And, you know, and I'm obviously, like, an old lady now, and that still happens. And, you know, I went to Twinsburg, Ohio. There's this twins festival.

[Zibby Owens]

Yes, yes, yes. I remember you wrote about that.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

And obviously, on some level, I think it's kind of a freak show that this many twins, I mean, thousands show up in the same outfit. But it's also incredibly moving that this many twins take pride in their sameness and kind of just want to have one day to celebrate, as you say, the kind of just craziness of it all. So that's worth seeing if anyone hasn't looked at those photos.

[Zibby Owens]

So you went from being a producer yourself to being an expert moderator on stage on your show. You have a show on JBS in the spotlight. I'm very excited to come tomorrow. Yes.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

I can't wait. Tiffy and I are doing a tag team, and I'm gonna be the interlocutor tomorrow.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

That's a lot of tougher questions.

[Zibby Owens]

All this pressure. I know. Anyway, how did that piece of your life get developed?

[Abigail Pogrebin]

I'm so glad you're asking me about it, because in a weird way, this is like, not to bring you into my therapy, but the sort of the ship that sailed without me. I loved asking questions, and I kind of started in my mind too late because it was sort of my fantasy to do it more professionally, and I really was behind the scenes for years. I don't play the violins on that. I was so proud to be a producer for Bill Moyers and for Ed Bradley and Mike Wallace. But as you know, you're behind the scenes, you're figuring out what the story is. You're doing the research for the story, you're going ahead of the correspondent to make sure things are lined up. And you're sitting there and then you're editing the piece. And the correspondent is obviously the key. And that's an incredible thing to be around. But I often wanted to be the one who was saying, oh, this is what I wish I could ask. And so finally I got that chance in the Jewish sphere. People started asking me. First at the jcc, I had a series called what Everyone's Talking About. And I interviewed everyone from Nora Ephron to Tom Brokaw, Jews and non Jews. But I just loved it. And I part loved. And you've done this so beautifully. Here is. Is the preparation, is that it sort of takes me into a deep dive of someone's canon, someone's sort of personal canon. And then you hope that you're sort of ingested it. I am an anal preparer. I want to make sure I've kind of read as much as I can and listened to other interviews. And then you're sitting there and you're just listening and you're hoping that something you hear is going to spark the next question, that they're going to work with you. And then with some cases and you know this, someone answers a question and then you can sort of hear a.

[Zibby Owens]

Screech, and it's like, oh, my gosh.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

There'S no electricity here. But most of the time it just kind of pops and sizzles and you just wish you could talk forever. And then I started doing it for the Stryker center at Temple Emanuel and had this blessing of being on Jewish Broadcasting Service, which I've so enjoyed. And my show is called in the Spotlight.

[Zibby Owens]

Amazing. I know exactly what you mean by the sizzle and the pause. And I feel like it took me a couple years to realize you don't actually have to ask a question. You can just say something in an interview. Because in conversation, it's not like a good conversation is not only one person asking question after question. That's like weird. Like, normal conversation is like, we talk.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Yeah, I've never thought of it that way. And it's so interesting. I once had a friend of mine, a college friend, who said, you know, when I write you an email, you don't have to respond to every single point in my email. And it's kind of like that, too. It's like, let's Just talk. And some. You're going to address some of the things I said and you won't. Others. But anyway, yeah, you're great at it. Zivi.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, you too. Oh, my gosh. I loved watching all of your episodes and everything. And I feel the same as you. Somebody was asking me the other day, like, oh, you don't have notes. And I'm like, well, I don't have notes because you learn all about a person and then you can, like, talk to them. And it's how I feel like, when I ask historical novelists about their research, and they're like, first we learn everything so that we can, like, put the character in. And maybe there are things and you can tell when, like, a random shoe is, like, there for no reason because the author just, like, really wanted to say that they knew about the shoe in the 1960s or something. You know what I mean? But for the most part, like, that's background and that's. That's mostly how we interact with people anyway. Like, who am I going to dinner with? Like, oh, are they on social? Like, let me take a break.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Let me take a peek. Like, it's. I mean, I do think. I think that there's something. And I say this to my kids who are now in their 20s. There is something about preparation generally in life, whether it's a job interview or it's a dinner party. And it's not about, you know, like, oh, I need to actually understand this person's whole life history. But it's just. It's actually going to just make for a more alive experience for you, you know, if you go in with just some information ahead of time.

[Zibby Owens]

I agree. I listened to this other really random podcast the other day, and I don't, I have to admit, do not really listen to podcasts. I don't know if you do, but, wow.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

I know.

[Zibby Owens]

I know. Every so often I do, and I really want to know about someone, but, like, I'd rather watch it or whatever anyway. And I just listened. I was like, wow, this show is not my favorite because I don't feel they have prepared at all. Like, they literally don't seem to know anything about the person they're interviewing. And, like, they're all just, like, giggling and what is that?

[Abigail Pogrebin]

I couldn't agree more. And not to bring it to a more sober subject, but I think that's part of been my sadness and fury post October 7th is that there are so many people who are shooting from the hip without doing any homework and feeling entitled. Entitled to those uninformed positions which are amplified and amplified and amplified. And you kind of wring your hands and say, would you just pause and stop talking for a second and open an article or a book or just learn something? And it always sounds patronizing to say that, but I feel like part of what's the toll that's been taken in our society, not just in the Jewish sphere, but, but certainly writ large and TikTok has not helped, is just the absence of learning and preparation and understanding something before you expound on it or rail about something.

[Zibby Owens]

Totally could not agree more. How has life been post October 7th for you? You were already in a position as.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

An expert, not an expert, somebody who's like wrestling, like anybody else. You know, they say that Israel means to wrestle with God. And I think we all have been, partly just because we couldn't fathom the horror and how it happened and how like this country that I think is so extraordinary in all of its, you know, startup nation miraculousness, just missed the boat. So, I mean, that's, you know, to say a term that sounds so facile is. Doesn't even begin to meet the horror of it. And so that piece of it just like, how is this happening? How did this happen? Is still very hard for me to process. And then just. Just the instantaneous antisemitism is still something I can't get over. And particularly the denial, the sexual attacks by and if not denial, the silence from feminist organizations with which and around which I was raised, all of this has been disillusioning. I can't deny that. I also feel like in the Jewish community there has been a kind of purity test of who's with us and against us that I think is not helpful, helped our people, and that hasn't been easy to watch. So all of these things. But all I feel like I can do is make sure that voices that I feel are so important are heard. There have been so many books written. It's extraordinary. And I don't have to tell you, including yours, which is, I'm excited to talk about that have just responded to the moment with positivity instead of just bemoaning. Everything that is so hard right now is kind of doubling down on not just Jewish identity, but again, Jewish learning. There are so many people who have chosen to learn Hebrew, to become a bar and bat mitzvah, to convert, to go to synagogue when they hadn't before, and it shouldn't have taken a massacre and this horrific spike in antisemitism to spark that but it's where we are. That surge has happened, and I hope it's sustaining, because I do think that part of why many have felt wobbly is because of what they don't feel sure about in their own story.

[Zibby Owens]

Yep. And I feel like for the first, for the last two years, I feel like antisemitism has been the main thing. Like, oh, my gosh, how are we gonna fight this? How are we gonna combat this? And now, I don't know about you, I feel. And we can talk about this offline. Cause I know we're almost out of time, but I do feel the infighting among Jewish people is another massive threat right now. The aggression, the political division. Like, we need to get together. And there's so much very spirited intolerance of each other, which I find devastating.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Couldn't agree. I couldn't agree more. Enough. I know we're running out of time, but just in my holiday search, you know, one of there's four fasts for the destruction of the temple. And you see that the rabbis said that the second temple destruction was because of Sinat Chinam, which is baseless hatred of each other. Like, they were saying, this is what takes us down. It wasn't necessarily the Roman enemy, which obviously literally took them down, but it was the way that we were basically shooting in a circle. A firing squad, whatever that term is. Yes.

[Zibby Owens]

I was actually. I did an event yesterday, and the rabbi there was literally talking about the same thing. The two groups who are fighting. And, you know, we have to heed the warning. Well, Abby, I feel like I could talk to you forever. I'm excited to continue this tomorrow, but hopefully.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Thank you, Stevie.

[Zibby Owens]

Other formats. Congratulations. I loved this book, My Jewish Year. Thank you so much for coming on.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

Thank you so much. Good to be with you. Good to be with you.

[Zibby Owens]

Bye.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

Bye.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms. Don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

[Abigail Pogrebin]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[Abigail Pogrebin]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[Abigail Pogrebin]

See capital1.com for details.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Abigail Pogrebin]

And yes, I'm stocking up because they.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Abigail Pogrebin]

Of course I'm getting my dad Tommy John.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Abigail Pogrebin]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[Abigail Pogrebin]

The possibilities are endless. Chief Lead on join [e-mail].