Allison Pataki (4:31)

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you, Zibby. This is a first for us. Do you doing this together in person. It's true for the podcast.

Zibby Owens (4:38)

I know and we've done. You keep coming out with books. We've done this like 10 times.

Allison Pataki (4:41)

You keep very graciously inviting me back. Thank you. I remember when it was like trailblazing to be a Zibby Owens three peep.

Zibby Owens (4:48)

That's right. That's right.

Allison Pataki (4:50)

It's a few more than that. I think it was 2018 the first time we synced up, what were all

Zibby Owens (4:55)

the books that you were on the show for?

Allison Pataki (4:57)

The first one was the memoir.

Zibby Owens (4:58)

Yes. If you have not read that, people in the audience and listening, it is a beautiful book.

Allison Pataki (5:04)

We connected in that. And you were relatively new to the podcast at that point, but we had a backstory together. And then. So this is book number 11. I have to remember because there's been a nonfiction and then two children's books and then the rest are historical fiction. So when my brain tries to keep track of how many of each, it's hard. So I'm just gonna remember the number 11. I can do that. You can do that.

Zibby Owens (5:29)

I mean, if you can remember all these facts to put the stories together. And it's so great because now you're introducing me to all these amaz and I'm learning so much about history and things I had no idea about. Thank you.

Allison Pataki (5:41)

Well, that's thanks to the genre of historical fiction. Anna Quindlen made a really great remark about how there's storytelling of facts and then there's facts with ruffles. And I thought that really is apt for historical fiction as well. And this one, I would argue It Girl is facts with sparkles. I would say this is a sparkly, sparkly telling of inspired by the historical facts.

Zibby Owens (6:03)

And I didn't realize until I got to the end of the book and then read your afterword that actually you did change some of the narrative of what happened. And it was sort of like a wishful thinking.

Allison Pataki (6:15)

Absolutely.

Zibby Owens (6:16)

Interpretation.

Allison Pataki (6:17)

I love that way of putting it. A wishful thinking interpretation. I am particularly excited about this book because it is a new experience for me as a storyteller. And I write historical fiction inspired by these forgotten women from history, these unsung heroines whose names have sort of been relegated to the footnotes or the sidelines, if you will. And I have stuck very closely to such an extent that it's sort of biographical, historical fiction. Previously, this book presented such an opportunity for a new way of telling this woman's story. Evelyn Nesbit. So it's inspired by Evelyn Nesbit.

Zibby Owens (6:57)

Let's back up. What is this book about?

Allison Pataki (6:58)

Yes, so this book, It Girl, is about the first self made female pop cultural icon in American society. We go back to New York City a century ago, the dawn of the 20th century, this moment in time where there are these tectonic shifts happening. So the Gilded Age is sort of breaking wide open, you know, Mrs. Astor's control over society and the 400 people who can fit in her ballroom, sort of determining. Everything is giving way because of these huge cultural phenomena that are all happening simultaneously, where you have mass media, you have photography, you have advertising, you have this new thing called Broadway with shows and musicals and entertainment. And so for the first time, you have this crop of young self made women who are rising in sort of the status in the society pages. Not because they are the debutantes and the society brides of the blue blooded 400, but because they are stars, they are the broad Broadway performers, they are the artists, muses, the models who are inspiring these great artists, if you will, the first influencers and the first self made female celebrities. And there was much more going on at the time. But you had Thomas Edison inventing electricity, you had the subway, you had the motor car, you had Teddy Roosevelt, you had sort of youth. And everything is fresh and bold and new and breaking open. And at the top of all of this rising sort of to the, to the cream of all of this social change is this young phenom, Evelyn Nesbit. So before Marilyn Monroe, before Taylor Swift, before these iconic showgirls who took America by storm, there was this woman, Evelyn Nesbit. She was known as the Gibson girl, she was known as America's Eve. And she was this fascinating blend of talent, charisma, beauty allure, star power. And then the fairytale sort of takes a real and dark and grisly gritty turn based on, based on the currents she gets pulled into. But so it's this true story of drama and crime and obsession and love and lust and fame and female superstardom.

Zibby Owens (9:16)

Well, Evelyn's journey started out in a very difficult way. And you have this very compelling scene in the beginning where she, along with her mother, who is a single mom, she has two kids and it's Christmas time and they literally go to a wealthy neighbor, so to speak, and on their doorstep just say, look, it's Christmas. Like, can you just help us out? Is there anything you can do? And this woman sort of haughtily says, okay, fine, like here's $5. Just like go. And she ends up playing a huge role. And we go from that moment to where Evelyn later on re meets this woman. And it's just one of many storylines throughout the book that you're like, look at how that all happened. Talk a little bit about that. Because you can so quickly you show how in society especially then, like you can go from being on the outside of the door to being on the inside of the door.

Allison Pataki (10:09)

Absolutely. That woman plays a huge role in her life and truly did. And it was Christmas and she was 13 and it was also her birthday. And so the true facts of this story are such that Evelyn Nesbitt was born as this beauty in coal country Pennsylvania. Born to a modest family, but a pretty solidly middle class family. But then tragedy strikes when her father dies suddenly and they are left with nothing. And she becomes sort of the parent, the breadwinner. She's thrust into this role at the age of 13 where she becomes the provider for her mother and her brother. True story. And so she's working, she's lying about her age. She's working at Wanamaker's department store in Pennsylvania, and she is spotted by a local artist. And this local artist sort of takes one look at her and asks, would you ever consider posing for me, modeling for me? And Evelyn had never really considered that. But then she learns that she'd get paid a dollar a day and she'd be able to feed her family. And everything seems sort of on the up and up because her mother's allowed to accompany her. And so she starts very, very modestly just by sitting for this one artist. And from there she is quickly spotted, identified and pulled, where in no time she's being recruited and working with the top artists of the time like James Carroll Beckwith, Frederic Church, and Charles Dana Gibson. Now, Charles Dana Gibson was sort of the tastemaker, because if you posed for Gibson, you were a Gibson girl. And every girl in America wanted to do her hair like the Gibson girl. If you've seen those black and white pen and ink images of the huge bouffant hair, men wanted them, women wanted to be them. That's why I say they were the first influencers, because it was like the girls would put the pictures of the Gibson girls up on their walls and just try to emulate them. And so Evelyn sat for this iconic Gibson image where he fashioned her thick, beautiful, dark ponytail to look like a question mark. And he named it Woman. The eternal question. Now, the crux of that is that she was not a woman, she was a girl. But she got pulled into this huge otherworldly celebrity at that point, to the status of an otherworldly celebrity. And from there it was sort of just like a rocket to the moon. And then everyone wanted to work with her, and then Broadway wanted her. And then all the influential men who were investors in the Broadway shows and who were the pacesetters of society, they all wanted to meet her. And so then she gets pulled into this world and really she's thrown to the wolves. In a sense that she's without protection at that point.

Zibby Owens (12:56)

And actually, it was interesting you talked. She gets embroiled in this horrific relationship, especially with an older man, that is beyond toxic. And she's left on her own. And actually, once you get to the later part of the story where she's out of it, it's only then that she feels her mother may have been complicit in some way. And I feel like that is a whole secondary level of loss and sort of shame that she feels even having gotten past it.

Allison Pataki (13:28)

Yes. Because her mother was so absent. And that was a choice too. And that continued to play out over the course of her entire life. Her feelings of confusion and feelings of not fully understanding even how she felt about that. I'll call it a liaison rather than a relationship. But the true memoirs of Evelyn, she's still very much processing all of that. And so that is inspired by the true story, the true character of Stanford White. And so Stanford White, who was her first patron, benefactor, protector. You know, there were all sorts of ways that society sort of glossed over and named these relationships between these powerful, wealthy, young, old men and the beautiful, young, impressionable, vulnerable girls upon whom they preyed. And it wasn't an uncommon dynamic at all to have a young Broadway star or artist's model or muse or performer, to have a benefactor, patron, boyfriend. And so Stanford White, he was known as the Pharaoh of Fifth Avenue. He was arguably the most powerful man in New York City, if not American culture. He built the Washington Square Arch. He built parts of Columbia campus. He had a hand in the Plaza, Madison Square Garden. And then you have. He's over twice her age and he has all the money, and he's an investor in her show. And so you have all of this sort of swirling when they meet. And it was interesting. Cause it was not the first time I had written about this phenomenon, but it was the most overt, what we would now call love bombing. He love bombs her. And she was totally overwhelmed and swept away and powerless as she's pulled into his world.

Zibby Owens (15:18)

There's almost a parallel here with the Jeffrey Epstein.

Allison Pataki (15:21)

Oh, that kept coming up. Yeah, that kept coming up. As I was working on this book and as I've been thinking about this book, there's parallels with the Epstein stories that are coming out. I was also reading the Britney Spears memoir while I was working on this book, and I could not get over the parallels. And Marilyn Monroe is having a moment now because this is her 100th birthday. And so I feel like there's been a resurgence of Marilyn Monroe interest in pop culture and in books in particular this year, and the parallels are staggering. Where there are parallels, but in sort of a corrective way are the way that I have been watching Taylor Swift's Showgirl era because that she dropped the life of a showgirl this fall and she similarly, as is the case with this book, is exploring those themes of what it's like to be a performer and to have that sparkle and glamour. But the bruises and as she calls them, the pearls of wisdom that what's happening behind the scenes when you are a showgirl and when you are a human who bleeds and is vulnerable and is a mere mortal, but who has this Persona that is sort of immortal or larger than life. And what's been interesting there is to just see though, that she's empowered. She was protected. She had a smart team, she had a good team, she had a solid team and she's a smart businesswoman, She's a boss versus more of the Epstein stories or the Marilyn Monroe side of things. Evelyn did not have the sort of resources and protection and advocacy that Taylor

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Zibby Owens (20:08)

I mean I was reading the book in part with my mom hat on as I guess I do most things. Exactly. I have teenage daughters.

Allison Pataki (20:15)

Yes.

Zibby Owens (20:16)

The idea like the spotlight that Evelyn was in and how taken advantage she was and how young. I mean it sounds like maybe she was more mature or whatever, but no. When you have girls, how do you feel from that angle?

Allison Pataki (20:31)

Yes, I have three girls. And so she was so young, Evelyn and wise beyond her years. But out of necessity, not, you know, a wisdom that you want to glean, you know, it's a, it's a dubious award to have that wisdom that young. But where? So I was playing around with Evelyn or I guess I will just say her story has haunted me for almost a decade. I remember I was on a panel actually with you for one of your retreats in the depths of 2020, Covid. And we were supposed to be away in person at the Ocean House. And the panel would have been in person with Deborah Goodrich Royce, Linda Loigman, Susie Schnau and Nicola Harrison.

Zibby Owens (21:16)

Yes.

Allison Pataki (21:17)

And because it was Covid, we did it virtually. So we all zoomed in. And so I know it was 2020 because it was the depths of COVID and we're all on the zoom. And Deborah Goodrich Royce has her laptop and she says, or her computer screen. And she says, you know, you all write this historical fiction about these strong women from history. And she turns her computer screen and she shows a nude that she has of Evelyn Nesbit. And Evelyn was about 16 at the time of the painting that Deborah had in the flesh. And she said, one of you should write the book about Evelyn Nesbit. And I almost fell through my chair because I'm working on the book about Evelyn Nesbit as she's saying this. And I'm like, this is a panel full of historical fiction authors who write about women. What if someone scoops her up before I can finish this book? But so I have that as a touchstone, that it was 2020 when I was working on this book. So it was at least six years ago at this point. And why she haunted me, but I didn't jump forward full heartedly into writing it immediately was because exactly what you said, how troubling it was as a mother and just wanting to figure out the arc I wanted to write for her. And I've always, as I said, written this historical fiction where the facts make the bones and the facts make the beginning, middle and end point for me. And I just realized at this point, as I was writing the story of Evelyn, I thought, I am going to write this one differently and I am going to give her more of a voice in crafting this ending in a way that the true Evelyn Nesbit didn't ever get to have in her life. But that's when I remembered I write fiction, I don't write biography. I get to write this book the way I want to. And so once the ending sort of unlocked for me, that's when I realized that I had to write this book and that I wanted to write this book and I could write this book.

Zibby Owens (23:06)

And do we think this is, like, allowed in historical fiction? Can you make up alternate endings?

Allison Pataki (23:11)

What do we think?

Zibby Owens (23:12)

Should we vote on this?

Allison Pataki (23:13)

You know who I talked to? I talked to Fiona Davis and I talked to Kate Quinn, and I talked to Nicola Harrison, and I talked to these other historical fiction authors. And I realized all these authors are out here writing books that are inspired by history, inspired by facts or real life events or people. But then they're writing the novels with that as the kernel of inspiration as opposed to the hard and fast blueprint. And I realized, oh, I'm allowed to write this. I'm a novelist. I'm a historical fiction writer. And so I saw this really wonderful quote by Dr. O. And I'm paraphrasing it, but he said, the historian will tell you what happened. The novelist will tell you how it felt. And that is what I am doing. I am writing a story where the spirit of the woman, the times, the moment and the events hopefully shines through, but is hopefully also an immersive, satisfying experience for the reader.

Zibby Owens (24:12)

And so what do you want people to take away from Evelyn's story?

Allison Pataki (24:15)

I want people to see that every once in a while, these figures emerge who not only shape and influence culture and history, but they define it. And that there are these people who sort of emerge in these moments in time who are larger than life and that, you know, we know their names. Obviously right now in this moment, we'd say Taylor Swift is one of them. But that there is that the story behind the stage, the story. But when you lift the veil and look into them as mortals and humans, people who dreamed and loved and. And felt and hurt and fell and got back up again, that. That is really the worthy, compelling piece of the story here. What it was like for them as humans. As humans, not as stars, not as performers. But that this can be a story of a woman whose life can be inspiring. And that, you know, this woman occupied this time where she had this incredible power to shape society. But ultimately, the story of her life and her heart and everything that went into her experience as a mortal human being is also worthy and beautiful and valuable to experience.

Zibby Owens (25:26)

It's really like the downside of fame. And it makes me wonder, what is our obligation? We are the consumers of the culture. Don't we all play a role when people are taken advantage of because we're the ones making their fame or not? Maybe not.

Allison Pataki (25:43)

And I think about this all the time, too, as a mom. Like, one of the most important things we can just remember as consumers, but also just as humans is be kind. Just. It's not that hard, and the world needs that so much right now. And there's always an opportunity to just be kind with a woman like Evelyn or You know, we see it all the time. There are these people who are built up, and then there's just this joy with tearing them down. And, you know, we have to be careful, because in this world, with social media and with just constant, constant information available, it's easier, I think, to be unkind. There are more opportunities for it.

Zibby Owens (26:24)

Who has gotten your attention for the next one? I know you rarely share. Are you ready to share?

Allison Pataki (26:29)

I am almost ready to share.

Zibby Owens (26:32)

She always says things like this.

Allison Pataki (26:33)

I am so just superstitious with my books. Like when I was on the panel with you, I shared with everyone on the panel afterwards. Like, I'm writing about Evelyn because I wanted to make sure if other people are doing it too. I'm also writing about her calling dibs in the author world, as my agent says, marking the tree. But so I'm always kind of superstitious until it's out in the open and the deal is ready and I'm fully working on the book. But I have another woman who is the inspiration for the story. Another American woman sticking in the 20th century, a little bit closer. Because I have jumped, as you know, all over. I've jumped continents, countries, empires, centuries. My poor agent probably has whiplash, but I'm sticking with America for this next woman. And she was unbelievable and truly shaped a historical moment that was impactful for every single person in this room, and yet too few people know her name. And that's where I like to start. I like to start from that point of, how do I not know about this woman? And then telling you everything you should know about this woman and why it's important to know her name.

Zibby Owens (27:43)

Amazing. And what about your children's books?

Allison Pataki (27:45)

Yes.

Zibby Owens (27:47)

Any more of those coming?

Allison Pataki (27:48)

Yes. So I have another children's book that will be coming pretty soon, a little over a year from now that is inspired by a particular experience I've been having with one of my children that is deeply personal and close to home and hopefully powerful to speak about. So I'll be able. I'm gonna share that one soon, too. I'm just so superstitious until it's ready to go. That one, I will say, because it's children's books, as you know, 50% of the story is also the illustration. So that one I'm going to be able to share a little bit more once we have the illustrations all locked in. And I'm sorry. So excited about that one. You know, writing historical fiction is wonderful, but there's nothing like doing a reading with children. Right. That makes it pretty fun to go to a bookstore or a library or a school with children. So I love to do both.

Zibby Owens (28:37)

And just in closing, we've been talking a lot about female friendship today. Evelyn had a great friend who came to her towards the end and really rescued her from a dark, lonely time. And your ending has them, yes, partners in crime and all of that speak to female friendships. And maybe if a friend of yours has been particularly absolutely important.

Allison Pataki (28:59)

Well, in fact, this book is filled with strong female friendships and all of my books that are written and inspired by these strong women, usually a huge piece of the story arc is the marriage piece, the husband. This is the first book I've written where it's not defined in large part by a husband and it's not defined in large part by a romantic relationship. This one is about the female friendships really at various points and intersections in her life. And so, yeah, this book wouldn't happen without the females in her life. And I mean, I love my girlfriends, my sisters, my mother, but I'm still best friends with my childhood friends from when I was three. I have had seriously close friendships, really at every point in my life, from college to post college, now mother friends, you know, raising our children together, one or two really close friends from each of those phases that really just folds into your life and becomes like a sister. And you know, the 3:00am people, the people you could call at 3:00am when you're really having a crisis. I have had crises in my life. I have had serious moments where I have needed to call on those people and they have shown up and vice versa. And I just couldn't imagine doing life without your girlfriends. We all joke, we just all want to move into a commune together and just that's really probably how children should be raised is with your girlfriends. It would make everything a lot more fun.

Zibby Owens (30:29)

Just in closing, any advice to aspiring authors?

Allison Pataki (30:32)

Do it. Get started. Right. Because I think so many people have stories they want to tell that are in their heads and for whatever reason there is an impediment, either real or perceived, as to why they shouldn't get started in that moment. And I would just say start it. Start writing. Put pen to paper or hand to keyboard with the understanding that whatever comes out is not going to be perfect. It's not going to be ready to shop to an agent or a publisher, but that the important thing is to get started and to get into it and to keep going, keep going. I am not precious at all about my writing process. When I'm writing my first draft it's garbage. I'm not sharing that with anyone. I'm not showing that to anyone. But you edit, you rewrite, you revisit, you keep at it. And then be mindful and purposeful about who you share those early drafts with. Because when it is the tiny little vulnerable flame, you can show it to someone who can blow out that flame, or you can show it to someone who will help fan that inspiration and will support you to keep going. Because it's not going to be perfect on the first round, it's not going to be perfect on the 100th round. It's never going to be perfect. But the important thing is that you just keep doing it.

Zibby Owens (31:44)

Amazing. Allie, thank you so much.

Allison Pataki (31:45)

Thank you, Zibby. Thank you.

Zibby Owens (31:49)

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbyoens and spread the word.

Allison Pataki (32:02)

Thanks so much.

Zibby Owens (32:03)

Oh, and buy the books.

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