← Totally Booked with Zibby
Totally Booked with Zibby
Camille Seigle and Ali Mann Stevens, MATERNAL HOPE: Stories of Unseen Struggles, Unexpected Resilience, and the Untold Ways Families Are Made
00:27:03
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- [00:01]
A
Hey everyone, it's Zivi. I am so excited to tell you about something I've created just for you, the Zip Membership program. ZIP stands for Zivi's Important People. It's for anyone who loves books, stories and wants a little peek behind the scenes at what I'm up to and what's on my mind as a Zip member. You'll get exclusive essays, a new podcast called Zivvy's Voice Notes. No interviews, just usually discounts at Zibby's Bookshop, a free ebook, and more perks. I wanted to create a space to connect authentically and deeply, and I'd love for you to be part of it. If that sounds like your kind of thing, become a Zip today. You're already important to me. Now let's make it official. Go to zibioens.com and click subscribe. And if you already subscribe, you can upgrade to the membership program. And now onto today's episode of Totally Booked with Zibby. Thanks for listening. This is an ad by BetterHelp.
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B
Did I talk too much? Can I just let it go?
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A
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C
Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar. I host a podcast called A Slight Change of Plans that combines behavioral science and storytelling to help us navigate the big changes in our lives.
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A
I get so choked up because I feel like your show and the conversations are what the world needs. Encouraging, empowering counter programming that acts like a lighthouse when the world feels dark.
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C
Listen to A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts.
- [02:31]
A
Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to read Books. In my daily show, I interview interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram Ibbeowens Camille Siegel and Ali Mann Stevens are co editors of Maternal Stories of Unseen Struggles, Unexpected Resilience, and the Untold Ways Families Are Made in Anthology. Ali Mann Stevens is a sales leader at a fast growing tech company. She is a summa cum laude graduate of Queens College where she earned a degree in sociology before unexpectedly finding her way into the world of sales. What began as a college job selling Cutco evolved into a fulfilling career, including over a decade at LinkedIn where she discovered a passion for building high performing teams and empowering others to reach their full potential. Her journey took a profoundly personal turn after the premature birth and tragic loss of her twins who were born at 26 and a half weeks, an experience that left her feeling isolated until she discovered comfort in the stories of others who had walked similar paths. The realization that none of us are ever truly alone became her inspiration for this book in which she offers strength, connection and hope to others. Navigating the often silent struggles of parenthood, Ally lives with deep gratitude for the life she holds a loving partner, two healthy children, a supportive family, and the lessons that love and loss have taught her. When she's not writing or working, she enjoys family adventures outdoors, traveling, painting, interior design, and pausing to appreciate the simple beauty of everyday moments. Originally from Long Island, Allie now lives in Westchester county with her husband, Tim and their two young children. This is her first book. Camille Segal, her co editor, is a consultant, mentor, speaker and facilitator who helps guide individuals and companies to unlock their full potential. She uses intuitive approaches and holds clients accountable to their goals to foster personalized growth and success. Drawing on a rich professional background that began in hospitality and continued at LinkedIn, and Camille brings warmth, clarity and structure to her coaching work. She holds a BA from Denison University, a postgraduate diploma from Les Roches Global Hospitality Education, and an organizational and leadership coaching certificate from Northwestern University, certified by the International Coaching Federation, Camille integrates values, longevity and holistic assessment tools into her practice to support clients in building more balanced and fulfilling lives. Camille's postpartum experience left her feeling alone and isolated during the COVID 19 pandemic. Returning to Work remotely after maternity leave didn't help. She believes that many of us are holding our most painful stories close, despite the fact that so many people are going through similar challenges. She believes in the power of sharing our stories and hopes this anthology allows many to recognize that they are not alone in their experiences. Camille lives in Chicago with her husband and their daughter. She loves to travel, spend time with her family, and nurture her mind, body, and soul. This is her first book. Welcome, Camille and Allie. I'm so excited for you to be on the show to talk about your collection, Maternal Hope. Stories of unseen struggles, unexpected resilience, and the untold ways families are made. Congratulations.
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B
Thank you.
- [06:14]
C
Thank you so much.
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A
And after all the struggle to put these on. No, I'm kidding. You were so kind as to send these beautiful necklaces to go along with the book, which is the most generous ever, sort of launch gift I've received for blurbing or whatever. So thank you for that. Tell. Tell a little bit of the story behind these beautiful charms.
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C
Yeah. So one of our brand sponsors, her name is Jill Johnson, this incredible woman, she's a cancer survivor. She and her son Max actually started the company out of la. And each piece has a beautiful meaning, which really, like, lines up with, you know, the purpose. Well, the meaning behind Returnal Hope, which is all about just strength and resilience and creating community and meaning after a hard time. So that's what the CEO, Jill, did after her story. And her pieces are incredible.
- [07:06]
A
Your essays in the book, both of you were so beautiful, heartbreaking. Also inspiring. Like all the feels. I can't believe I said all the feels. I never used that expression. Pretend I didn't say that. I've been spending too much time with my kids. Okay, that's what we want. All the feels. All the feels. All right, why don't we start with you, Camille? Talk a little bit about what happened to you, how you decided to share it in this very vulnerable, intimate way both of you did. I feel like I've just been, like, over a close meal with you, like, leaning forward while you whisper these stories to me. So talk a little, Camille. Go first about what happened.
- [07:47]
B
Yeah, I think, you know, for me, getting pregnant was not the challenge. And I say that to say that so many people. It starts there. But for me, pregnancy was what you would call pretty normal, regular, easy. The really big, just shock and awe for me was going through postpartum and really having a breaking point of discovering who I was, discovering what I needed, and ultimately ending up in a situation where I was questioning my own life, which I think is so. I hate to use the word normal, but I think so many people have that experience and are so afraid to share it, to be vulnerable about it. And when I had shared it with Ali at the time both of us were working together at LinkedIn, she had her own story, which she'll share, but it was just normalizing these experiences and the conversation and understanding that you are not alone in this experience. Yet it feels like when you're in it, that you are nothing but alone.
- [08:51]
A
I'm so sorry. I mean, you have this moment and you show us in the essay of how things keep building. Your husband's calling you Eeyore, and you're just like moping around. If anybody's husband starts calling them Eeyore, this is a sign that you should seek help.
- [09:09]
C
That's right.
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A
Right. I mean, you know, sleep deprivation alone does a number on everyone. Right? And all the hormones and all the things, like, there are just so many. So many inputs that drive us to the brink of new motherhood. But when your closest loved ones are calling things out, even in a joking way, just like, you know, make that alert go off in your brain or whatever. But anyway, you got to a point where you really had this moment out on this porch where you were like, maybe this should just be it. And it's. It's terrifying to read and to know that you got to that point really, of feeling like there was no way out, that you were trapped in some sort of situation, and that became the answer to the problem, which is the heartbreaking part of it all. It's like, when there is no way out, how do you cope with that? And it can be about motherhood or really anything, you know, it just that feeling of feeling trapped. Talk a little bit about about that and you ended up having this huge about face as a result.
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B
Yeah, I think there's one. Covid did not help, and I like to name that because I think there's so many factors when you are postpartum and. Or trying to get pregnant. And then the whole world was ultimately shut down as well, which I think was just another dynamic that added both of our experiences. And I think for me, getting to that point, it was just this moment of like, why am I here? What is this experience? And I so vividly remember, and it gives me chills. Every time my daughter's cry, I heard her cry. And ultimately that was the first time where I was like, oh, my gosh, like, this is. This is my role. This is why I'm here. And it just brought me back. And I say that to say that it's small steps, I think. So often we think, like, when you're stuck in anything, when you're in grief, when you're in this experience, you're just supposed to be happy the next day and you're supposed to live in these joyful moments. And sure, there are joyful moments, but there are seasons, and there are just different seasons for all of it. And being in the darkness and the gray and letting yourself expand, experience those emotions. To me, that's the only way you get through them.
- [11:23]
A
My gosh. Well, you're sharing it, I'm sure, is going to help other people. Not to mention all the other essays. But, you know, even just if it were just that. Diana.
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C
Anyway.
- [11:34]
A
All right, Ally, go ahead. Talk a little bit about your essay, if you don't mind. And by the way, I mean, I actually had to stop reading the essay and sort of put my hand over my heart at one point when you were describing the scene in the bath, I mean, it was so intense and so vivid and you shared so much. Oh, my gosh. Talk a little bit about it.
- [11:58]
C
Yeah. And you have twins, right?
- [11:59]
A
I do have twins.
- [12:00]
C
You do? Yeah.
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A
So, yeah.
- [12:03]
C
The feedback I've gotten was that the reading of the chapter, it was soul crushing, but this cleansing cry. Sort of what my whole experience has been like even since it happened. But in 2019, my husband and I decided we were ready to start a family of our own and realized after struggling to get pregnant that I had major fertility issues. I had low amh, anti malarian hormone, and one working fallopian tube. It's not to say I could not get pregnant, but it was confirmed that it would be very, very difficult. We decided to take the IVF route and did two egg retrievals, which, based on what I hear from any woman going through ivf, that's considered, like, pretty good in terms of how difficult it could be. People go through 10, 15 egg retrievals, multiple transfers. I felt so lucky and blessed and grateful that I only had two. We transferred two embryos. They both stuck. This was me. We couldn't believe it. Took the pregnancy test. We were pregnant. I wanted to scream from the top of the Empire State Building, all the rooftops in Manhattan, I was pregnant. We couldn't believe it. I even felt the sense of, like, guilt, because it was easy, all things considered. And I wrote in my journal at the start of the new year, or it was maybe even December 31st, all about how I was feeling that I just couldn't. I couldn't believe we had two healthy children in babies growing inside of me. And here we were. And then it all took a turn for the worse. And in April of 2020, so about six weeks after the world had shut down, I. 24 hours after a perfect doctor's appointment where everything was confirmed, the babies were growing healthy. I was doing great. My fluid levels were perfect. Picture perfect, everything. I had a horrendous stomachache. Later I learned I was in labor. And I had no idea. I thought it was food poisoning. We've all had horrible stomach aches. I was 26 weeks pregnant. There's no way these babies were coming. I didn't even think to call my doctor because it couldn't have been baby related until I realized it was. And I felt things moving inside of my stomach when everything took a turn for the worse. And it felt like my organs were about to come out of me. And it was a baby in the bathroom came out of my body. And as visual as that might feel to hear, that's what happened. And in this sick way, I was relieved that it was a baby. It wasn't my insides coming out of me. And there I was on the bathroom floor holding my. It sounded like a kitten. She was purring and she was pink. So happy. She was alive. She seemed. We're gonna be okay. Just get me to the hospital. And I got to the hospital, obviously, via ambulance. The medics were holding her. Two were over me. And I kept reminding them, there's another baby inside of me. There's another baby inside of me. We gotta go. We gotta go. Go faster, go faster. It's three o' clock in the morning in the middle of Brooklyn, New York. And I made it to the hospital and I was put in the back of an administrative office because all of the rooms were for COVID patients. Literally, like, there was people doing intakes. And I was in the back delivering my son. And he came out in horrendous shape. The opposite, actually, of my little purring kitten. He wasn't breathing. He was blue. And it was like the scene out of. Out of a movie. And they were resuscitating him. He came to. And ultimately my two babies were transferred to another hospital in New York City. And my son Max died after 24 hours. And my daughter, we had a, you know, a NICU journey, similar to what I hear people's journeys are like. And Liv, my daughter, was on her own timeline, as the doctors kept telling me. And don't compare her to other babies in the nicu. And, you know, I know it seems like the babies are getting better week by week and Liv isn't. And just stay in your lane. And that's what we did. But then she was diagnosed with something called nec, which is necrotizing enterocolitis. And in addition to that, had sepsis and E. Coli and severe brain damage from lack of oxygen she had at birth. And we lost her also seven weeks after we lost Max. So then we went home. My husband and I left the hospital with empty hands and broken hearts. And that was our story of the birth. And then fast forward only nine weeks and miraculously, after being told getting pregnant could take you years, if at. If at all. And I would need medical help and science. I was pregnant with my now healthy son. And my grieving journey while becoming pregnant naturally, those two worlds collided. And it's the life that I still live today just knowing, you know, that grief and gratitude and happiness can all be felt at the same time.
- [17:47]
A
I'm so sorry that you went through that. I'm so sorry that science, like, couldn't save Liv and Max. That, like, it just couldn't. They just couldn't do it. And it's so terrible. And the way you wrote about it, the way you talk about it now, it's. I'm just so sorry. I wish I could hug you. Not that. And so amazing. You have your two beautiful kids as well, but the way you write about, you know, you are the mother of four kids and, you know, those are your firstborn kids always, and the moments where you are kissing their heads goodbye. And I mean, this is so heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking. And it's not talked about enough. People talk about pregnancy loss or NICU journeys, and your child doesn't make it or whatever. It usually ends there. And you had the grace and strength to take us all the way through, through the pain, which is so important. It's so important for it to be seen. And it's really beautiful.
- [18:51]
C
Thank you. Thank you so much. You're so right. It just stops there. You know what I mean? You're totally right. And thank you for calling that out.
- [19:00]
A
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- [22:41]
C
Yes, they did. So Max was born with a condition non genetic, so it wasn't picked up or identified during pregnancy or any of the embryo testing. But he had something called Vactorol V. It's an acronym. V, A, C, T, E, R, L. And each letter stands for a different condition. And Max had four of those. And one of the conditions, which is a treatment, I'm going to butcher the words where I won't even try, but esophageal atresia and two other big long words. And his esophagus was closing. And therefore when he would swap, he would swallow. And the fluids weren't circulating between him and my umbilical cord properly and he stopped swallowing essentially. And his esophagus got so small that I then in a matter of hours filled up with fluid and my body basically exploded. And there's not a medical term for that.
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A
But I believe the term is hell.
- [23:51]
C
Hell on earth. So he pushed live out is what happened. And people don't believe me until I show them the doctor's photos. But my water never broke, my fluids that came out intact, which is medically unheard of. But his condition caused the explosion. Wow. Yeah.
- [24:14]
A
So the two of you could have just bonded over this at LinkedIn and, you know, made a close friend and then, you know, gone to moving on with your life and your motherhood and your. But you didn't, you stopped and said like, not only do you want to collect your two stories, but you want to bring in all these other stories as well for an anthology around this topic. Why?
- [24:41]
B
I think for both of us, the more that we connected over it, the more vulnerable we became with each other. We started to realize how often these topics just don't get shared. And the ones that do, and there's no taking away from it. There's some celebrities that have shared, which is incredibly vulnerable and real and great. But you're not hearing from everyday people. You're not hearing from the stories of a nurse, a NICU nurse or a doctor. Like these stories just don't get shared. So when Allie and I started talking about it we started realizing there are so many people that go through these experiences that don't share them. And how can we just start to bring light to. It's not just my experience, it's not just Ali's experience, but who are all the other people? And granted, we have a small snippet of other people that have shared their story. Story. But another example in our book is Same sex Surrogacy. He actually also worked at LinkedIn. You don't hear about men, you don't hear about a gay couple and what they have to go through to have a baby. And that was just something where we wanted to bring light. We wanted to share with people that they're not alone in these experiences. And I think the more that we share, the more that we're vulnerable with each other, the more we can hear something from someone else's story and have an aha moment for ourself, the more we can feel seen, and then the more we can start to share with each other.
- [26:05]
A
Wow. How did it feel collecting the stories, choosing the stories and. Allie, are you okay? I know you're still. I mean, I can't imagine that just being like, okay, I'm going to just share the most painful moment of my life and then moving on. Let me talk about, like, my Google Doc spreadsheet of essays. You know, I mean, it's hard to pivot like that. Totally. No, no, I'm.
- [26:27]
C
I'm okay. Thank you. But your question was. Oh, just the process of, like, reading the stories, for me, it was therapeutic, which that wasn't an expectation I had. After Camille and I had. We essentially recruited our contributors. Right. Every, you know, contributor has a very different story. And we had only maybe one or two personal connections, and the rest were, at one point, point, strangers. And when we reached out to them with this opportunity for them to share their story, they were so excited. But what they were more excited about was our mission and our whole purpose and sharing it with them. That. Look, what Camille and I felt was, you know, alone as we were struggling and we felt no one could relate to. No one knew what anyone goes through. You just read headlines, you know, in. In media. So, you know, this gay couple went through surrogacy, and here's their story in, like, maybe four or five paragraphs, maybe. Usually it's one paragraph on Instagram. But they were very excited and motivated to write the chapter to help us help the world, which is what we're wanting and hoping maternal hope will do. So reading it for me, just reconfirmed the need for this book in the world and reconfirmed the need to normalize. Talking about these things in very raw and vulnerable detail and bringing the book to life is frankly, a dream come true and something, you know, that's been on mine and Camille's bucket list for over five years. So it's been really incredible.
- [28:15]
A
Who is the best recipient for this gift? Is it an expecting parent? Someone trying to get pregnant? Somebody who is already a mom? Like, who is this for? Who is your wish list? Who's on your wish list?
- [28:27]
B
I think there's a lot of different audiences. I think one of the things that we've spoken about is, like, if you're in it, is this the right book for you? And I think it really depends on the person because for some people, if they're going through fertility and they're feeling like, oh, I'm so alone and nobody goes through it, and why am I the only one excited experiencing it? I actually think this is a beautiful gift for them to realize, like, there is another side to this. You can get through it. Here are some of the other stories. I also think for somebody that's postpartum, I've had quite a few women reach out to me that are like brand new postpartum and just say how validated they felt in the experiences that I shared that they had not even shared with their partner. And that to me is like another example of. I maybe would think it'd be too raw to read right after, but we've heard already that, like, people are really, really just soaking in the ability to connect with somebody that's gone through that before. So I think there's quite a few different experiences, whether you're infertility, whether you are newly postpartum. And sure, if you've gone through your experience and you have kids that are healthy. I think there's a beautiful thing too of just reading this and understanding that you may have a friend or your child may be going through this and just giving you the relatability that they're not alone in that experience.
- [29:51]
C
Yeah, that's an audience to cam that, like, I think people may not realize. It's for the grandparents of women like us who can't possibly understand. It's for friends who are. Or watching their friend struggle to get pregnant or struggle with postpartum or going through adoption or surrogacy or stillbirth or recently lost. They have a friend or a sister that recently had a loss. So it's for family, friends, loved ones who can't possibly relate firsthand, but wants to so badly understand so that they can continue to support, you know, their loved ones that are struggling. Like, I wish my family could have read this book while I was going through everything.
- [30:38]
A
What brings you both the most hope right now, maternal or otherwise?
- [30:45]
C
My healthy living children bring me so much hope. And I. People often ask me, would I feel this sense of hope and fulfillment in my life if I didn't have them? And actually, I don't know the answer to that because I do have them. And I'm just beyond forever grateful. And my perspective on quite literally everything in life has changed because of Teddy and Ava, but they give me hope. And the impact that the book will have on the world gives me a lot of hope for the people going through it, not just for myself, is what I. What comes to mind for me first. That's beautiful.
- [31:32]
B
I think for me, it's just the small moments. I think right now, when you look at the world, you can easily find. So I mean, every day, all the headlines, there's something that can just frustrate you, overwhelm you, feel like, oh, why? Why is this the world we're living in? But I think what gives me hope is those small moments of joy and connection and. And knowing that there are still so many good people and good things. And how do you just have those experiences? And it's not every day, it's not all the time, but when you can sit with somebody that's smiling or look at the sun and be like, wow, it's a beautiful day today. Just those small micro moments that gives me hope for everybody in their own experience.
- [32:16]
A
Amazing. Thank you to the two of you for compiling this collection of essays, for sharing your own stories in such an authentic, beautiful way, and for encouraging conversation around really hard issues which ultimately will. Will help everyone. So thank you.
- [32:35]
C
Thank you. Thank you for having us.
- [32:36]
A
Vivie, of course. All right, take care. And thanks again for my. Thanks again for my beautiful necklaces. I'm gonna let my daughters fight over these, I think. Okay, bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books. We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfair message.
- [33:15]
C
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A
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C
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A
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- [33:41]
B
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A
Hey.
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B
Russell just launched a fitness app and he needed to get the word out to busy professionals looking to stay focused fit.
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A
So I turned to Acast. I used their Smart Recommendations feature to easily find shows that talk about health and fitness. Booking sponsorships through their platform was a.
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B
Breeze, and just like that, my app.
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A
Was in their ears during their morning run.
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B
Sounds like a smart move, Russell.
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A
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