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- [00:01]
Zibby Owens
Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens. Charmaine Wilkerson is the New York Times bestselling author of Black Cake, which was named a Read with Jenna Book Club pick and adapted as a Hulu streaming series by Oprah Winfrey and Capital Entertainment. By the way, I loved it. She is an American writer who has lived in Jamaica and Italy. A graduate of Barnard College and Stanford University, she is a former journalist whose award winning short fiction has appeared in various magazines and anthologies. Welcome, Charmaine. I'm so excited to have you back on my show to talk about good dirt. Having already discussed Black Cake, and now I get to talk to you about yet another fabulous book of yours. Congratulations.
- [01:21]
Charmaine Wilkerson
Thank you. It's great to see you. And thanks for taking time to read the book.
- [01:24]
Zibby Owens
Of course. I loved this book not only because of the plot and the emotions of all the characters and the language and all that, but also I learned a lot. And I love books where I come away like, fascinated and like pouring over all of your sources at the end and being inspired to like go to museums to see what you're talking about. Like, I learned so much. So for that reason too, all of it. It was really wonderful.
- [01:51]
Charmaine Wilkerson
Right. Thank you. You know, it's interesting because I learned a lot too. I continue to write mostly from a point of emotion or a question I may have, or maybe an image pops into my head. And that's how the story of Ebbie Freeman, the protagonist in the present day began. But as I thought, okay, what is she doing on the Connecticut coast when her family comes from Massachusetts? You know what, what would be the story of the jar that fell? Because that came to me right away. I did research and I too learned a lot.
- [02:25]
Zibby Owens
Amazing. So why don't probably I've confused everybody listening. Okay, tell us about what we're talking about. What is your book about? What jar? What did we learn about? Go ahead.
- [02:36]
Charmaine Wilkerson
So I Like to tell people. A really short version of my story is. This is the story of a woman from Connecticut who decides to run away from home. She runs off to France for a few. She feels the need to distance herself from very painful memories from her past. She survived a childhood tragedy that led to the death of her brother and to the destruction of a beloved family heirloom that holds a great deal of symbolism for them as a family. And more recently, just when she thought, you know, life was pretty good, it's getting better. Even though she lives with this terrible loss, she's about to be married, and the romance falls apart in a very public and humiliating way. And so that was part of her motivation. At some point, she says, I can't do this. I can't stay where I know people, where people may know me. So she takes off for France and instantly feels better. She's in this small community. No one knows who she is. No one cares. But very quickly, her past catches up with her. And therein begins her life lesson. She really needs to think, how does she get away from her past? Maybe she can't. So how does she find a new way to sort of live with all of the difficult things that have happened to her and at the same time, find a way to thrive? So that's her challenge. And what we learn is that part of who she is is going to be in the past. The story of her family, the story of the heirloom that was destroyed, the story of her and her brother. She lost her brother, but they had a relationship. He was part of her life.
- [04:26]
Zibby Owens
Wow. Well, the way that you tell the story from so many different viewpoints technically, is quite impressive as well, because we don't just hear Abby's story from ebi's point of view. We jump all around. Sometimes people get one short, and then we never see them again. And it just serves a purpose. But immediately, we're taking into somebody else's point of view, which, of course, is the whole goal of fiction anyway, right? We have to inhabit other people's experiences and points of view. But we see her neighbors when she's a child. We see friends in France. We see the new girlfriend. I mean, we get the whole range. And then the most. Well, not the most, but the most technically and amazing thing you pull off is that you also trace her ancestors through the slave trade coming to the US Their love of language, how all of their lives intersect, their losses. And then it leads us to the present day. And all culminates in this one jar of Symbolism that, of course, shatters right in the beginning and is on your cover and all of the rest. So it's almost like, how did you pull all of these different threads together and not confuse the reader? Like, how did you do this? And did you know that you were going to tell the story from so many. It's almost like the shards of the jar itself, right? We have to piece it all together.
- [05:55]
Charmaine Wilkerson
So, going to your first question, how one part is. I think part of it tends to come naturally to me, and it's a bit of a blur. The other parts of the answer are, you know, technology is my friend. In this case, I put things into files. Oh, you know, there's Zibby's story, and then here's something from the point of view of Zibby's dog. And then, you know, and so it does help when I've written something. A scene comes to me, a person comes to me, and I put it in a file because it does help. I step away. And then the third answer is, you know, the. The research really helped. I did research again. I filed that away. But what happens is our mind creates a kind of room. At least my mind creates a kind of room, or sometimes I describe it as a wheel in which I can see that entire fictional world and there are things missing. So maybe I'm missing research or maybe I'm not really sure what's going to happen with Ebi and her ex, or Ebi and a new guy she meets or with her parents in the past. But I have a general idea, and for me, it's like walking into a room with a bunch of people. And bit by bit, I get to know their stories, but they're all sitting there in the room with me. They're all in my field of vision. So I think that's what I mean by the blur. Zibi, you know, each one of us does have a different kind of mind. We know this now that we each think differently. And so this is something that comes pretty naturally to me. Now, there is no guarantee that this does not confuse people because, you know, each book brings a different kind of dimension to storytelling. And some people aren't into the jump all over the place kind of book. Other people are. It all depends. But for me, again, it's like I walk into a room or I'm walking down the street and I see a number of people, and each story from each person enters into my field of imagination or my field of vision. It's all there. So the research was interesting because I knew from the very first page that a terrible thing had happened in this beautiful home with this loving family. These strangers enter this family's home. We don't know who they are. There's a tussle, this beloved family heirloom breaks and this little girl's brother ends up dead. And so we meet Abby Freeman on the worst day of her life and she is forced to grow up with all of these people saying, oh, it's that little girl. You know, it's that little girl. They all know her story. So part of her struggle when she's a young woman, even though she comes from a well off family, she has no material needs, she's got a good education, she has an interesting job, and she's fallen in love. Even then, the struggle for her is she doesn't get the chance to, you know, muddle through life without somehow being watched or without worrying that her parents will be terribly, terribly worried themselves about her and for her. So that's kind of her identity that's been imposed on her. And, you know, I'm interested in the power that stories have to shape our identities. And so there Ebbie is struggling with one story of who she is. And I think that her journey will involve finding a way to rewrite that story. She can't not be that little girl. She cannot. But how does she rewrite the story of her identity? Well, part of that may lay in the past and the stories from the past.
- [09:39]
Zibby Owens
Wow. I mean, we even see her as she's changing her hair throughout the whole book and how we end with her sort of resolution of what she's doing with her hair in the future and like getting back to basics, you know, one of the many themes is recovering from trauma. And what does that mean? Can you ever really, quote, recover? It becomes a part of you and you have to just sort of synthesize it with everything else. And she has this one moment where she pulls out Baz's alarm clock and she reflects back onto her ex, Henry, and how when she would pull it out, he was like, why do you have to do that? And you know, aren't, you know, aren't you over it? Do you need a therapist? Blah, blah, blah. And she's like, you don't get over, like people can help you through it, but it stays with you. And how nice that I can pull out this alarm clock. And I feel like the alarm clock and the jug and all of these symbols are what we, the tangible things we can take with us when everything else is so when life itself is ephemeral.
- [10:38]
Charmaine Wilkerson
I know that you, from your wonderful writing, know all too well about finding a way forward.
- [10:46]
Zibby Owens
Thank you.
- [10:46]
Charmaine Wilkerson
After trauma. And we say after trauma. And, you know, you raised an issue that, for me, is a bit of a pet peeve. You say recover from. In fact, I don't like words like get over or even the phrase move on. I do like the idea of moving forward because we can move forward even with the pain that we must carry. And moving forward may bring us joy, may bring us satisfaction, may bring us other kinds of fulfillment or advantages, but somehow we may need to carry that pain with us. It becomes part of what we have lived. So this family heirloom, you know, we're talking so much about the idea of trauma or loss or healing. And one of the things about this story is I actually had fun writing this story, not only because of the research into elements from history, like black seafarers sailing up and down the coast of North America, even when many people were still enslaved, or the teams of pottery makers. Again, they were enslaved, but they were skilled pottery makers. And one of them creates the family heirloom in the American south that ends up in New England. The story of how that jar ends up in New England is pretty much the main part of the story from the past. But I had fun with it because, you know, this jar is a huge symbol for the family. You talk about objects. If someone else walks into their home, they see this big old brown jar, and they might not think of it as being special because this is a family that is well off enough that they could own something that's pre Columbian, or they could own a beautiful, delicately painted jar from centuries ago, from China. But instead, they've got this big old jar. It's old, but it's only about six generations old. And what makes it special is the idea that there is nothing tangible without the intangible. Not when we're talking about emotions, identity, heritage, culture. It's the story that surrounds the jar, or I should say the many stories that surround the jar, that really give it meaning. And the jar also has a secret. And you've read the book, so you know what the secret is, but we won't say what it is. And this is a secret that could have cost someone's life in the past and in the present day. The family never reveal what the secret is, or at least they don't as the story begins, because it's part of them and who they are, and it's part of what keeps them going, part of what allows them to thrive and believe in that despite adversity, one can live well, you know. So going back to the idea of objects and family heirlooms, this was fun because as the stories are shared with children, yes, it is a story of enslavement to freedom, adversity to better times, impoverished, you know, impoverished lives and more prosperous lives. And it's a symbol of difficult times. To better times. This jar. But as it's told to children, it's an adventure story. So Ebbie's father tells these stories that inspire her brother to draw these caricatures of this pot bellied old jar on little stick legs as it's running down a hill or as it's on a sailing ship or as it's wearing a movie star disguise, you know, to hide from people. So the jar is a way to insert into this story of loss the beauty of the family, their mirthfulness, their playfulness, and some of the things that they've done in the meantime.
- [14:39]
Zibby Owens
Wow. Well, the way you wove it all together and the twists and turns and up till the final message, which, you know, gave me goosebumps. Really amazing. Plus, you know, I mentioned this earlier, but you have all of these sort of one liners that stop me in my tracks and I was just like, oh, wow. And they often end chapters. I just want to like give a couple maybe examples if I have anything. Let me read this one. Is this okay just to read an example or two?
- [15:07]
Charmaine Wilkerson
Yeah, well, yeah, I think if it's not like a major spoiler, like the last line of the book, we won't do that.
- [15:12]
Zibby Owens
I will not read the last line. This was about the brothers clock radio because I just love that part.
- [15:17]
Charmaine Wilkerson
Oh yeah.
- [15:17]
Zibby Owens
Debbie reaches for her brother's clock radio now and watches as the. As the display flips from one minute to the next. She smiles at the thought of Baz's soupy morning voice. Then she watches the display for one more minute. She is no stranger to keeping time by what she has lost. Beautiful. I mean, then you have someone who has you weave in the 911 disaster as well. And I mean, I don't want to give it this away, so I'm going to just. I'll just go to the right to the end here of this. And you said so and so would have to come to understand what losing someone suddenly and violently could feel like. Well, that didn't sound as good when I didn't read the beginning, but I didn't want to give it away. How about this? Filled with people chattering in languages she doesn't understand. She pretends to be a traveler scrolling through her mobile phone when all she is doing really is trying to disappear from herself. Oh, sort of a corollary to wherever you go, there you are. Right. But those are just a couple and probably not the best. But at the end of most chapters, there is something that you're like, whoa, that is such an. Like, just a powerful way. So tell me about that. You seem to have this very soulful, wise perspective on life in general that you give us throughout the story, but in these powerful sort of insightful lines. Tell me about that. And where did this wisdom and perspective come from for you?
- [16:39]
Charmaine Wilkerson
Well, thank you. Some of that may very well be fictional. You know, when we write folks, we burrow into ourselves and we find things we may not recognize in the rest of our lives. And that's what I love about fiction. Fiction helps me come a little closer to some of the difficult truths in life. And it helps me to explore some of the questions I have and maybe explore the thinking of people with whom I may not agree or people who have lived lives, their lives differently. And so thank you for saying wisdom and soulful. I don't know. But, you know, time does help. And I began this story with a question that has stayed with me since I was very young. I started working as a television news reporter when I was 21 after graduating from Stanford University. I, you know, studied communication there, went out into the world to report, and it was very interesting. It's a wonderful way to get to know your community. But I began to recognize that very often I would walk into a stranger's home on the worst day of their life and have very difficult and intimate conversations. And I would go home and I would wonder, how will they manage? You know, how will they do this? How will they find a way to move forward after unspeakable loss or pain or bitterness? And time does help because as time went on, as I grew older, the story moved from being a sorrowful thing to a question also of amazement. Because people do manage, people do find ways. And I hope as I write Epi's story that maybe she will find the way she's beginning as we read the story. And it's because there's this element of humanity, element of magic that we hold in ourselves that, you know, we are wired for hope, we are wired for love, we are wired to laugh and play even in bleak times, even after unspeakable loss. And so that's the amazement part that I mentioned Zibi. It's, you know, how do we manage? It becomes a question about me and everyone else. And so that is that thinking that led me to think of Ebbi. Ebbie just popped into my head one day and the jar was falling and her poor brother was already on his way to being killed. And then I thought, now what? How will she manage? And what was she doing there? And what are they doing on the Connecticut coast? And. And that led to this story. But it's an exploration. It's not that I have any answers, it's that I have questions. And as I write, maybe in little bits and pieces, I reach small answers.
- [19:43]
Zibby Owens
I love that. I love that you said we are wired for hope. I feel like I need to put that on an Instagram slide. I think people need to hear that right now.
- [19:52]
Charmaine Wilkerson
Get out the T shirts.
- [19:53]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, exactly. It's interesting, your journalistic point of view and how you have a chapter dedicated to the dispatcher who took the initial call. I really loved that point of view and how even the dispatcher who takes 1-911-call can have that. So stay with her that 20 years later she wants to come meet them and just sort of like make sure they're okay and that there's light in Evie's eyes and all of that. And that, you know, even after it, she goes and hugs her own 15 year old. And that particular chapter I found extremely moving.
- [20:28]
Charmaine Wilkerson
I, you know, have talked to you about what I was thinking as a young journalist and how that question stayed with me. Well, yes, imagine the people we call the first responders. I think journalists may be second or third responders, but imagine that. And I kind of like that chapter too, because I think that, you know, very often people who work in difficult circumstances, including journalists, we are trained to be calm. You know, it's not about us getting excited. You really don't want to call 911 and have people, you know, panicking on the phone. So the people who often respond to difficult circumstances and help others are the most calm in their demeanor and their way of speaking. And it seems as though nothing gets to them. And so I thought of the people who must somehow help to lead people through difficult emergency situations and how they may feel something too. In the case of the emergency dispatcher, I mean, we won't say much more, but it'll be a nice thing. It'll be a good day for her when she gets to that other point 20 years later, and she'll somehow feel as though she's come full circle in her work and in her life.
- [21:45]
Zibby Owens
Amazing. So now that this book is coming out and is already a USA Today bestseller as of this morning, when we're talking, what is coming next, I know that Black Cake was a fabulous Hulu show. Is this going to be a show as well? Are you writing a new book? What's on the docket for you?
- [22:03]
Charmaine Wilkerson
Well, it's all very early. This book just came out. Was it a week ago or so. And I'm very excited. So we shall see what happens. You know, when I write the Zibby, I think first of the book, I just want to tell a story. And so there's a satisfaction in having that. And the rest is all great. So we'll see. I'm working on, you know, I'm always writing little things and they may never get published, but I am working on something that I think is growing. It is another family story. And again, it's very different. Just as good. Dirt is different from Black Cake, but there is food involved. There is some food, but not necessarily cake.
- [22:44]
Zibby Owens
Charmaine, thank you so much. Thank you for the book. Thank you for teaching me and touching, really touching me. I mean, the book was very moving and I didn't mean to suggest it was all doom and gloom. It is not at all. And there's love and hope and there's all of that, too. But you certainly fit a lot in to this very moving, thorough and captivating story. So anyway, thank you. I really, really enjoyed it.
- [23:11]
Charmaine Wilkerson
Thanks so much. It's great to see you, Zibby.
- [23:13]
Zibby Owens
You too. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibi, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbeowens and Spread the Word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.