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- [00:00]
Narrator/Advertiser for Equip Health
We live in a culture obsessed with dieting, weight loss and exercise, and that can make eating disorder behaviors easy to miss. But the reality is, eating disorders are serious mental illnesses that take a major toll on your health and your life. But recovery is possible. Eating disorders are more common than you might think. Chances are you know someone who is struggling with one, or maybe you're struggling yourself. If you're concerned about an eating disorder in yourself or a loved one, I want to introduce you to Equipment Equip is a fully virtual evidence based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery at home. Every EQIP patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietitian, medical provider, and mentors, and you get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges. Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses. It's covered by insurance and there's no wait list. If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit Equip Health to learn more. That's Equip Health.
- [01:05]
Narrator/Advertiser for Boost Mobile and Grainger
The longer you stay alive, the longer you can enjoy Boost Mobile's unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. So here are some tips. Do not parallel park on a cliff if you want to enjoy an unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not mistake a wasp nest for a pinata if you want to enjoy an unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not microwave a hard boiled egg if you want to enjoy an unlimited plan with the price that never goes up. Stay alive and Enjoy Unlimited Wireless for 25amonth forever. With Boost Mobile, after 30 gigs, customers may experience lower speeds. Customers $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan.
- [01:38]
Zibby Owens
Hi, I'm Debbie Melman and I host
- [01:40]
Narrator/Advertiser for Equip Health
a podcast called Design Matters from the TED Audio Collective. Every episode I have conversations with designers,
- [01:48]
Zibby Owens
writers, artists and other luminaries of contemporary thought. People like Roman Mars, AI Weiwei, Ethan Hawke, and Ashley Ford.
- [01:58]
Deanne Helene
We not only talk about their crafts
- [01:59]
Zibby Owens
but but how they design the arc
- [02:01]
Narrator/Advertiser for Equip Health
of their lives, what they've learned, what
- [02:03]
Zibby Owens
obstacles they've overcome, and how they've done
- [02:06]
Narrator/Advertiser for Equip Health
it and how they see the world. Join us for an inquiry into the
- [02:10]
Zibby Owens
broader world of creative culture. Find and follow Design Matters with Debbie
- [02:15]
Narrator/Advertiser for Equip Health
Millman wherever you're listening to this.
- [02:22]
Zibby Owens
Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books in my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram. Iby Owens okay, I think this is maybe my favorite episode that I've like ever done. One of them definitely in the top five. I interviewed Eileen Heisler and Deanne Helene, who are the co creators of the TV show the Middle, which my family and I have been binging for months. There are nine seasons and we are at the end of season five which because we don't want to ever be done through a coincidence which I add in the show notes well, I'll just say it. I wrote a substack for my zip members which if you haven't upgraded, you should definitely do that. Anyway, I wrote an essay called Here in the Middle and talked about how I love the show so much and how it's actually helping my own family and me and everything. And then I sent the substack and Jordan Roeder, who is an author who has been on this podcast for moms like us, she knew them somehow, got in touch, put us in touch. Turns out we all live in the Palisades together where we have a part time home and they had already read my essays on the Fire. They shop at my bookstore. I couldn't believe it and then we got to talk and have this whole conversation and now we're gonna go out to lunch and I have new friends and I love them and I love the show. They are one of TV's first female showrunning teams. Deanne and Eileen were the creators and executive producers of the hit comedy the Middle since graduating from NYU's Tisch School of the Arts and also, I think the University of Indiana. They've enjoyed a prolific 30 year career writing and producing classics like How I Met yout Mother, Ellen Roseanne and Murphy Brown. They are known for creating strong, smart female characters with their trademark blend of humor, heart and humanity and have won prestigious awards including the Golden Globe, the Humanitas Prize, multiple Critics Choice nominations and the Peabody Award. As I said, they live in LA but hail from the Midwest, which explains their lifelong love of salads made with Cool Whip. Enjoy. Welcome, Eileen and deanne. I am so excited to have both of you here to talk about your show, the Middle, which, as you know, I am completely and totally 100% obsessed with and could not be more excited to talk to you two about.
- [05:16]
Eileen Heisler
Oh, that is so nice.
- [05:18]
Deanne Helene
You made our day. You made our day.
- [05:21]
Zibby Owens
Okay. The Middle has had this major research. I have to say, my kids discovered it because there are all these clips on TikTok. I don't even know how that happened, but they all were, like, all four of them in different, you know, ages and backgrounds, whatever. They're like, oh, yeah, I got shown these clips on TikTok too. Did you have anything to do with that?
- [05:40]
Deanne Helene
FYI, we are as surprised as anybody.
- [05:43]
Eileen Heisler
We kind of hear from our kids. Like, did you know, like, the Middle is kind of like this. All these clips on TikTok now, and we had no idea. Had nothing to do with it. It's like, people just keep finding and discovering the show, which is fantastic, which is great. It's so fun. It is fun for, like, the younger generation and young kids who, you know, weren't around or old enough to watch TV when it was originally on. So it's fantastic and so cool.
- [06:06]
Deanne Helene
It's funny, like, kids sometimes bring kids who are some of our earliest admirers. Even, like, when we did the pilot and just showing it to our kids and our kids friends. And sometimes kids make their parents watch it and they say, oh, this isn't what I thought it was going to be. And you're not the first person who said that. Like, they walked in and saw their kid watching something they didn't really know and said, where'd you hear about that? And you never watch any series, you know, so it's really. It's really, really awesome. It makes us feel really good.
- [06:33]
Zibby Owens
It's almost like all of us think the show is for us, right? Like, I feel like we're all actually just watching my show. We just finished the episode, and as I've told you via email and everything, we have watched everyone. We're at the end of season five now, and even still, my younger son is like, oh, no, we're more than halfway done.
- [06:54]
Deanne Helene
We don't.
- [06:55]
Eileen Heisler
Oh, my good.
- [06:55]
Deanne Helene
You still have three, four seasons. Oh, my God.
- [06:58]
Eileen Heisler
I'm excited. I'm excited for you to see the end because I think we nailed our ending. And that's hard to do, you know, so. Yeah. But I won't spoil anything.
- [07:06]
Zibby Owens
Well, we just watched the episode where Frankie decides to have office hours because she, like, can't think straight. And I was like that. And they were. All my kids were all looking at me like, oh, my God, that's you. Because they're like, what is wrong with your brain? And meanwhile, one of them is texting me like, reschedule the chiropractor. And the other one's like, mom, don't forget. How did you forget that? And I'm like, I don't know. I like, I can't so hard. Thank you for Frankie. Validating the. That mom brain is because of all the inputs and not because of the brain.
- [07:35]
Deanne Helene
Your air traffic control, it just never stops. And it doesn't stop when they get older either. They still, you know, you're still keeping your own life and everyone else's life in your brain.
- [07:45]
Eileen Heisler
But so we always heard, you know, when we're doing the show, you have a. It's like you have a camera in my kitchen or you have a camera in my living room, you know, and we used to hear that all the time. And it is interesting because obviously the show is very specific about kind of, you know, you know, the middle of the country, you know, the flyover states, that sort of thing. And then. But we find that it really did resonate with everyone. I mean, it does really well in Europe and it's like Latin America. Like, it'll be like, oh. It's also interesting that that country really likes it, you know, so it is interesting how you write something very specific, but it really is universal.
- [08:21]
Zibby Owens
So maybe we should back up a minute for those who have not watched the Middle or don't really understand what I'm talking about and talk about how the two of you teamed up and created this show at that time in your lives where the inspiration came from and all of that.
- [08:38]
Narrator/Advertiser for Equip Health
Sure.
- [08:38]
Deanne Helene
Well, every time. We've been writing partners for a long time, we have the great joy of having been friends since we were 18 years old. So we've been through every stage of life together. And we had a deal to create a show for abc. And we were sitting, I think, in a coffee shop, and, you know, you're going, what are we going to write about? They want something. What are we going to do? And we sort of looked into each other's tired faces and thought like, well, you know, maybe we're exhausted moms. There hasn't really been a single cam show from the point of view of an exhausted mother. It started there and then became like middle age, middle class, middle of the country. And, you know, ADN can join, but both of us are from the. Grew up in the Midwest. And we just decided also we had just come off of working on Lipstick. Was that right? Then when we had done this jungle. Yeah, we had done Lipstick Jungle, which everyone called wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment of everyone being so fancy and everything being so fabulous. And we as Midwesterners were always saying, like, wait a minute. What I kind of wish for is what I grew up with and how it felt in the neighborhoods that we grew up with. And for us, we sort of felt like that honesty was wish fulfillment to us, and we wanted to go back there. So it just kind of evolved. Evolved from there. And we picked and chose from our children's annoyances. And my son was whispering to himself at the time. And Deanna, talk about your grandpa's. You told you I loved you.
- [10:07]
Eileen Heisler
Yeah. The end of the pilot, when Mike says to Frankie, she says, you never tell me you love me anymore. And this is a line that came from my grandpa where my grandma said to him, you never tell me you love me anymore. He said, I told you I love you. The day I'm married, Jim, if anything had changed, I'd have let you know. But it is nice because it's. When we look back on the. On the nine years of the show, it really is like a video diary. Like, every argument we have with our husband, every, you know, annoyance with our kids or what we wish for, you know, with our kids or the yearning or the. All of that just went into the show. So it's. It's fun to go back and. And watch now. But it's funny, like, even when you said the. That you were talking about the one episode you just watched, like, I don't remember that at all. There's. Yeah, I just remember TikTok is all, see these clips? And I'm like, oh, right, I forgot about that one. So it's kind of fun to go back and look.
- [10:57]
Zibby Owens
Do you want me to describe the episode in more detail? Yes, please.
- [10:59]
Eileen Heisler
Would you mind? Yeah, but it's funny.
- [11:02]
Deanne Helene
Deanne and I are both like, each. We switch off. But I mean, each half of Frankie, I think, is both of us, I think. I don't think I ever aspire to the nice fruits, but I think Deanne does and always has it. But our mix of, you know, sarcasm and laziness, you know, I was like, the water, you know, people would just know, like, elaine's going to work. You can bring water. You know, I would just be like, where do I write the check for water? No one expected more from Me than that and cupcakes or the just did not just all doing the best we can. But now that we don't have the show, we have fights with our husbands and annoyances with our kids, and they just fly into oblivion. We don't have the wonderful outlet to put them on television.
- [11:45]
Zibby Owens
So I was listening to your episode on Eden Scher's podcast. Right. Which was so funny. Middling. Or, you know, when you guys were talking about that, and I didn't realize that originally the part of Frankie was going to Ricki Lake.
- [12:01]
Eileen Heisler
Well, yeah, we did two pilots.
- [12:04]
Deanne Helene
We did two pilots.
- [12:05]
Eileen Heisler
Yeah, we had written it originally. God, what was it, 2007 or something?
- [12:11]
Deanne Helene
Yeah, yeah, it started in nine, so. Yeah, probably seven.
- [12:13]
Eileen Heisler
Yeah. And we cast it, and the only person who was the same from the original pilot versus the pilot with. With Patty was Atticus, who plays a brick. So he was tiny. Tiny on that pilot. So he was the same, but all the other cast was different.
- [12:29]
Deanne Helene
Well, you know, when you're casting a pilot, it's weird. We get so much, especially the way it used to be with pilot season. You know, it's sort of like the pilot gods are with you or they're not. You know, and casting at that time was very difficult, and it just was not. The casting was not. The people were not available. The things were not falling into place the way that they should. And. And, you know, we didn't feel we had ideal. We had cast it ideally. It was, you know, we had to do what we had to do to get the pilot made, and then it didn't go. But people still held on to it like they liked something of it. They even held on to the cast, actually, for a while. But the first version was kind of dark. It was a little more indie filmy than what ended up. And I don't know that that was our vision necessarily, but that's just kind of how it. How it was. I think the way it ultimately ended up is closer to our original vision for the show. But, yeah, as difficult as it was to cast the first time, you know, the. The economy started to tank after, and there was a writer's strike, and ABC found themselves with not as many, you know, scripts as they hoped. And we sort of. Our agent said, you know, what do you guys want to do? We had, like, just a little bit of an inkling that they might be open to it. And I had always felt like. Like, this show is not done. You know, I sort of. As the economy started tanking, we kept feeling like this is very close to our heart and is still relevant. And I still just, I have a little gut feeling it's not done, you know, and so we got, he sort of introduced that idea to abc. What if they, you know, did that again? They still don't feel they're done with it. And we miraculously were given that opportunity. And then the second time we got a call from one, you know, first thing we have to do is cast. And we got a call from a network executive that said, well, what do you think of Patricia Heaton? And we're just like, you know, what do we think of Patricia Heaton? I think, like, that would be the perfect person to be in our show. And we met with Patti and we hit it off and then it just rolled from there.
- [14:23]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh.
- [14:24]
Deanne Helene
It's really lucky. Really, really lucky.
- [14:26]
Eileen Heisler
Yeah, for sure.
- [14:28]
Zibby Owens
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- [16:47]
Narrator/Advertiser for Boost Mobile and Grainger
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- [17:19]
Zibby Owens
So and I also read about the spinoff that didn't happen with Sue Heck. And I mentioned it to my husband and he's like, but that's just so Sue Heck that that would happen.
- [17:31]
Deanne Helene
She tried. She tried so hard.
- [17:33]
Eileen Heisler
It was, yeah, it was, I mean, you know, it's too bad. I think it was a shoo in, you know, I think people really adore, you know, sue and to see her, you know, try. And the premise was that, you know, she's graduated from college and she moves to Chicago, you know, and Brad, her best friend, was going to be there also. And so they were so cute in it. They were really so hard, you know, with to try and get an audience to new eyeballs to a new show. So to already have this character that's so beloved. But as frequently happens, so much of whether a show goes or not is timing. And we were all off cycle because we had to finish the middle first, then do the pilot. So we weren't in traditional pilot time. And then right in the middle of it, one of the network presidents got fired. And so then there was no one really to make the decision. It was at the end of the year. So they were running out of money. So there was, I guess, I guess they, they said no, but I think it was a mistake.
- [18:30]
Deanne Helene
Well, it had to be decided by Thanksgiving, which is a strange time to have to decide. And I think was so much flux, like the president that was there was gone, someone else was coming in. Nobody was really in their jobs. I think it went up to like Bob Iger, who was like very much easier to say no than yes at Thanksgiving when you, you know, we're not really involved with it. So that's what happened.
- [18:50]
Eileen Heisler
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:51]
Deanne Helene
It was a shame though because I mean, I think that, you know, the timing was weird, but Eden was terrific. And I think even if they, you know, even if the pilot. There were aspects of it that weren't perfect because of the. We shot it so fast. But I really think. And this doesn't go just for us, but for many shows, you know, if they took a breath and said, oh, there's a few things we didn't like about the pilot, just redo it and get, you know, and get it right, she's definitely worth investing in. And I think it wasn't a great decision on their. On their part, but Eden was really great.
- [19:20]
Zibby Owens
Yeah. The thing that's so. Just to be like, Frankie. The thing is, like, the emotions that are expressed in the show and the moment to moment things are so real. Like, and they're timeless, too. Like, it doesn't matter that this was shot starting in 2009. Like, who cares? And it's 2026. It makes no difference. Like, families are families and the interactions between the siblings and the parents and all these demands on motherhood. Like, this show and the way you presented it somehow just totally nailed it. What do you think? Like, I'm sure you've evaluated yourself, like, how did. Is it because you were so truthful and you didn't try to package it up or like, what was it? And how can other people tap into this? Other creators, Right. Everyone's trying so hard to create something that lands. How do you feel like you did it?
- [20:19]
Eileen Heisler
I think that we always. The writing that we love is writing that obviously is wry, sarcastic, funny, but also has heart and is real. And there's plenty of shows, by the way, that. That don't necessarily have heart. I mean, Seinfeld is brilliant, but we would not write Seinfeld because we just tend to like those more real moments. And it's interesting, though, because I think it's really hard now because the truth is that what we did was just create characters that we know and put them in these situations that every family can relate to. But that's a hard thing to sell. Right? You're going in, you're high, you bring your briefcase.
- [20:56]
Narrator/Advertiser for Boost Mobile and Grainger
Yeah.
- [20:56]
Deanne Helene
It's not high concept.
- [20:57]
Eileen Heisler
You sit in front of the network and you say, here's a show and it's a family and it's a tired mom. Hear the characters, but, you know, they want to hear they're on the moon. And then this happens. And one. The other, you know, like, because there's two different things. There's a show that you write and can go nine years, and there's a show that you go in and you could pitch it and it sounds really great. And especially now they're just looking for the hook, you know, and they're looking for that, the. The thing that's going to make them, you know, click. Next, Next, next on streaming, you know, next episode. Next episode. And that's not always great writing. You know, they're two very different things. And it's always been that way in terms of selling what you want to do.
- [21:37]
Deanne Helene
But it was lucky.
- [21:38]
Eileen Heisler
I mean, even more so now, you
- [21:40]
Deanne Helene
know, But I think the fact that. Why is it on? I mean, I think we were really on. I think we were pretty. Like, we're, you know, Carl Reiner, like, famously said, you know, like, write. What is the plot of Land that only you stand on? You know, what do you know that you think nobody else knows? And the more specifically that you write, a lot of times, I think then the more people it relates to. And I think we just really knew. I think we really knew Frankie's point of view, and we really knew Mike was, you know, an amalgamation of many, you know, Midwestern men that we've known. And then I think also the writers that we hired were so truthful, and they came, you know, in the meetings. We're meeting people, you know, with their own stories, you know, and every. You know, it's not just us. As it rolled on, obviously every writer's marriages and kids and traumas all got folded in, but it was like a big therapy, you know, room. I mean, it was just like, what happened today? I mean, speaking of therapy and meaning weird things, like, I am not proud to say that this social worker coming to your house happened to my house. Only I was not the perp. I was Mike in that. My husband had, like, you know, told my son, like, calm down or whatever, like, pressed on his shoulder, and my son had turned his head.
- [22:57]
Eileen Heisler
She's talking about the episode where Frankie throws the beer bottle because they're social trash ready, and he hits Brick the shoulder or something. And so then Brick tells the kids at school, and so then the school has to call on social services.
- [23:13]
Deanne Helene
Yes. And in the show, Mike walked in to find police officers in the principal's office. In the real story, I walked in to find police officers in it.
- [23:21]
Zibby Owens
Oh, my gosh.
- [23:22]
Eileen Heisler
And.
- [23:22]
Deanne Helene
And, you know, it was even in the time when this thing is happening, why it's happening, and it's a mistake of your quirky child, the other part of your brain got to go. I know this is going to be a funny story, you know, and it. It always started from the truth. It. I mean, there's so much truth so many things really happen. There are some that are. You know, obviously you stretch this and that, but I think it was. It was kind of like a very truthful attitude. So I think it's like, what is your. And when you're really true to your voice, it's not hard because you know what they would say because they're real, you know, so it's just write what you know that is truthful. And we were right in the thick of it, and most of our writers were right in the thick of it at the time we were writing it.
- [24:06]
Zibby Owens
But I really want to know where they are now. I mean, I know they don't exist, but to me, they really exist. I am like. I, like, love the characters, really, like, I. You. I mean, I'm not saying this to be nice. I mean, I inadvertently am being nice, I guess. But after so many hours spending time with such consistent characters and knowing everything they've gone through, like, I feel like I'm owed.
- [24:39]
Deanne Helene
You have to keep watching to the end of the season.
- [24:41]
Zibby Owens
I want to know where they are, like, today and grown up and all of that stuff. Do you wonder? Do you wonder about them?
- [24:48]
Eileen Heisler
Yeah. I mean, it was weird when after nine years, it was fantastic, but we were ready to be done. But I have to say, like, on the last day that we were together as writers, obviously, it's about, like, leaving the family that you know. You know, the writer family that you know. But to leave the hex, like, you almost felt like you're abandoning them, you know, and it really did. And I.
- [25:11]
Deanne Helene
Very painful.
- [25:12]
Eileen Heisler
I remember I just. Just sobbed like my boyfriend had broken up with me. That's how hard I sobbed. That missing the characters, missing and feeling kind of like, I don't know, it does feel weird, like they're off, they're somewhere. But it was very emotional.
- [25:30]
Deanne Helene
It's like Mike in this speech where. Gosh, I don't know if Zibby has gotten to this episode yet, but when Mike is nostalgic for when he had the whole family in the car and he says, I had it. I had everybody. That's how we felt about that. You know, it's like. It is really like, it was a. Not even, like, the week the show ended, it was like months, you know, like, just, like, wrenching them from you, you know, And. And it's funny because I had a conversation with Neil Flynn at one point. And it's funny because as. As you go on a long run with these actors and. And these characters live in these actors, so you care deeply about these actors, their health, their everything about them. And I said to Neil one time, I said, like, it's not like Death of a Salesman or something. Like, like my character, like, lives in you. No one else will ever play it. You're the only one who plays it. You're the only one who holds it. Like, you know, like you are connected so, you know, thoroughly because you're sort of like co parents of this other person, you know, and it is. It is a very. Yeah, it's a very meaningful, you know, relationship. And I think a lot of writers, we feel so we. We often say, like, the middle scratched a lot of itches for us in that. It's like we didn't end going. If only I could have a show where I could express my voice. If only I had the right actors playing the role. If only they'd let me tell the kind of stories I wanted to tell. We really, you know, did get to do the dream for a really long time. But the hex will be okay. Don't wor. After you watch the last episode then. But we think they are fine. We love them, and we would not let anything bad happen to them beyond the normal bad things that always happen
- [27:17]
Eileen Heisler
to them, I would imagine. Obviously, I've not written a novel, but any writer who, you know, you've lived with those characters for so long that it's hard. But I do think that there is something about, you know, for us, nine years and, you know, they grew up as a family. Like you grew up, like the first time. Okay, we're sending sue to college, and now we're, you know, and. And all those. It really was like your own kids, you know, growing up. And so I just think the nature of it and being a family show and watching the kids grow up and get older and find love and, you know, fail and all those things. Yeah, it really was like we were the custodians of this little family.
- [27:56]
Deanne Helene
It's really weird. It's funny to talk to Eden now, who's a mother, you know, now she's a mom of three, you know, and she looks at. I mean, I think for a lot of the run of the show, she didn't even watch it because it would hurt. She felt it would hurt her performance to watch herself. And so I think even now she's seeing it, and all of a sudden she's Frankie, you know, it's so. And I feel so much like when, like, with Eden having kids, it's like I'm a grandmother.
- [28:19]
Zibby Owens
Yeah.
- [28:20]
Deanne Helene
I mean, it's like you really, really feel so much ownership because they were just kids when they came to us, you know?
- [28:26]
Eileen Heisler
Like, I'm curious. Do you feel like what you get out of the show is different than what your kids get out of the show?
- [28:32]
Zibby Owens
I feel like it's helping us all gain an understanding of each other in a way that nothing else can do. And I say that jokingly, but also real in. I mean, when we watched the episode of when Axel is at school and Mike is, like, on the couch watching the game, and he's just so longing for Axel to call him, and he's like, you know, and he and Frankie also have, like, the. This competitiveness, like, has he called? And blah, blah, blah. But he was there. And then finally, at the end, Axel calls because Brick tells him to.
- [29:02]
Deanne Helene
Yeah.
- [29:03]
Zibby Owens
And then they talk. I'm literally gonna cry, even think about. Because I watched that with my son, and then, like. And he's at boarding school, actually. Anyway, so then he. He, like, made an effort and called me when he went, and I was just like. That was because of you guys. I mean, it was.
- [29:21]
Deanne Helene
We're all gonna cry.
- [29:22]
Eileen Heisler
Yeah, I am, too. I'm tearing up. Well, we're happy to help.
- [29:26]
Deanne Helene
It's funny because it's so raw. Like, I mean, I think in the writing, emotionally, it was as raw as it is on tv because we were. You know, we cried in that writer's room. We laughed. People's people lost their parents. People's kids did. I mean, we were just in it, and I think we were aware of the bittersweetness of all of it, you know, being a parent at the time. And that made it into the show. It was emotional. I mean, I cry watching scenes or, you know, all of that. And it was also, you know, as I said, really great to, you know, make things come out right in the way they might not come out in your house. Like, I used to say, like, you know, we always had a thing. I didn't. I have a wonderful husband. Don't I always feel that when I need that moment to back me up, that, you know, sometimes he might side with the children? And I would say, like, mike would never do that. Mike would not do that. And he's like, well, you put the words in his mouth. Of course he would. He wrote it. But it's like, you know, so. So great to be able to make parts of your life turn out. Maybe. Maybe scenes that you wish it turned out differently, you get to write them and do them. But, yeah, it is very Emotional. Did you get to the one where Mike does, like, Cats in the Cradle? Did you do. He's kind of Cats in the Cradle.
- [30:38]
Zibby Owens
I lost it. Oh, my gosh.
- [30:42]
Deanne Helene
Yeah, it was funny because Neil, you know, is not a parent. You know, he practically became one from the middle, for sure. I mean, he definitely was so much of a beautiful father daughter relationship, especially with Eden, but with all the kids. But I remember in that scene he was struggling a little bit, like, with having to cry, you know, with the emotion or not. He said, like, you know, he said, like, what are they. Like, why are they going. You know, why are they going to laugh? Like, he didn't. He was struggling with how am I going about this? To elicit the reaction that you want. And it was just. We're just like. It's just so painful that you can't help it, you know, and just the words will do it. And he trusted. And it was such a beautiful scene. I just saw it the other day and I was like, oh, my gosh.
- [31:26]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, I should have brought that up. Are you all in touch? Like, are you still. I know you're in touch with Eden and Brad. Is everybody still in touch? You all go out to dinner and things like that? A little bit.
- [31:36]
Eileen Heisler
Everyone's. Patty's in Nashville now. And. And so we see. We see Patty a lot. And.
- [31:42]
Deanne Helene
Well, I mean, Charlie's, like, in England, so he kind of, you know, went off a bit. No one has seen him a bit lately. But we just. We just. I mean, our writers room, I will say, lives in. In virtual text cyberspace. And we talk probably all the time in our group chat, all the time about everything. And if the cast DM was out of town. But, you know, we. We lost Pat Finn, who was. Bill Norwood passed away. I saw that recently, which was so heartbreaking. And. And then a bunch of us were at, you know, his memorial service and. And it is. Neil, like, traded places with me to sit with Patty. That was so funny. But the, you know, seeing all those faces, seeing a bunch of faces even, like, you know, our wardrobe person is there and then Brad is there and the one who, you know, played the. The, like, Amish Laurette, you know, Grace Banish. And seeing those faces in one location is so moving that it just. You just can't believe it because it's been like, you saw them every day for, you know, nine years. That, you know, people. People do try to keep in touch and are always really. It's a. It's. It is like a beautiful family thing. When we see each other. For sure.
- [32:58]
Zibby Owens
Well, I know you two have done so much since then. And by the way, the first lady, I went to college with Erin Cooley.
- [33:05]
Deanne Helene
Oh, my God. Wow.
- [33:07]
Zibby Owens
I literally. We both moved to LA after college and I went to, like, his first apartment and like, the La Brea. Whatever projects or whatever they're calling. And, like, I was so excited to watch it. And now I'm like, oh, my gosh, you guys were. You produced that too? This is like, such a small on that one.
- [33:25]
Deanne Helene
We did like, a rewrite on Betty Ford. Like, that was kind of why, I guess, our Midwestern sensibilities.
- [33:30]
Eileen Heisler
Yeah, we were kind of brought on just to do a very specific kind of reading. But. Yeah. Yeah, but he was lovely.
- [33:37]
Deanne Helene
And. And yeah, it's been like, yeah, our. Our post show life, you know, interesting. You know, we worked on pilots. We're working on a play now.
- [33:46]
Zibby Owens
Oh, what are you working on? Tell me.
- [33:49]
Deanne Helene
We're working on a play that. I don't know. Do I make it the. The bizarre subject matter of our play? Do you want me to say it?
- [33:56]
Eileen Heisler
Well, yeah, I. So we worked it for years. So many years ago, we had this idea in the Palisades. Eileen and I both lived in the Palisades, and Eileen had evacuated. This is several years ago. Eileen got evacuated because her area needed to be evacuated. So she came and stayed with me and along with her husband. And they were there for several days, them and their cat. We just kind of thought, it's kind of funny, this idea of, you know, we're best friends, we spend every single second together, yet when you really have to live with someone or be with someone, their marriage or your marriage, and we just kind of like this idea and thought, this is a good idea for a play. And so we've been working on this play where it's the Palisades, it's a fire, people are evacuated. And so it's really weird that then it actually happened and our house burned down or both of our houses burned down.
- [34:46]
Deanne Helene
Yeah.
- [34:46]
Eileen Heisler
We kind of feel like, did we will this, like, by ride, trying to ride?
- [34:49]
Deanne Helene
And we were imagining like that we live, you know, and I know you had your place here and you have your place there, too, that, like, you know, we live in this, like, green place with, you know, wet lawns, and we don't realize it's a desert and it's a fire place. And when, you know, you live a nice life or your career's gone well, and you think you can protect yourself from these, you know, what would we do? What happens when literally, the ground under your feet is removed? And then we couldn't believe that
- [35:23]
Eileen Heisler
we're
- [35:23]
Deanne Helene
picking it up again in this new context because all the emergency predicting. Are we real?
- [35:29]
Zibby Owens
Do we keep writing it?
- [35:30]
Eileen Heisler
Do we not write it? But I kind of thought, well, I guess we have more to say about it now. So we're kind of. It's funny.
- [35:34]
Deanne Helene
It's funny. But comedy, really? Yeah, it's both, but. But, yeah, we're. We're picking. That TV kind of was interrupting us in. In between. So it's taken us a little while, but it's nice. I mean, the middle gave us the chance to, you know, like, at this time of life, say what we only really want to write, what we really want to write.
- [35:53]
Zibby Owens
Yeah.
- [35:54]
Eileen Heisler
So.
- [35:54]
Deanne Helene
And maybe a book. Maybe a. You know, we. I would love to write a book of essays or other things, too, you know, and it's hard when you've had an experience like the middle that was really like. Even we shot on the Warner Brothers ranch, you know, which was this. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it was like an offshoot of the big Warner Brothers. And it. And it was just this beautiful. Like, we just ran. We had the run of this place. It really was Orson, you know, for nine years. And. And, you know, and since then, in other television, you know, we've only wanted to. You know, we've had the opportunity to work on different things and also supervise people and do other stuff. But. But we haven't as much had the. Like, that itch in television. You know, we. We left it that on the field for that. And so now we're a little more looking toward what other ways do I want to do. I want to write and get. Get stuff out there.
- [36:45]
Zibby Owens
Because as I. As I told you, I wrote this essay called Here in the Middle. And I was gonna call my next book Here in the Middle, but I'm not gonna call it that anymore. But I'm still gonna include the essay. But this is what's so stupid.
- [36:58]
Eileen Heisler
Not stupid, but promote our show, please.
- [37:01]
Zibby Owens
I will still promote your show. You guys can blurb my book. I'll send it to you. Anyway, I literally met someone on this retreat I just did who runs a library in Indiana. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And she's like, yeah, I would love you to come be a speaker when your book comes out. And I was like, no, you don't understand. Like, my book is about.
- [37:22]
Deanne Helene
In part.
- [37:23]
Zibby Owens
Like, there's an Essay about the Heck family. And I would love to come to Indiana because I love them. And I told my husband, like, guess what? We're going to an event in Indiana. And he's like, they film it in la. I'm like, it's fine. I like, now I have to go there. My daughter's orthodontist is from Indiana. Now I have all in common with her. Anyway, I'm going on and on, and now I'm like, over time.
- [37:46]
Deanne Helene
No, that's amazing. When we were at Disney World, it was funny. When we shot at Disney World, that was like, one of the first times that. Because we were like, you know, Modern Family got a lot of, like, the attention, you know, in the time that we were in our original run, we. We were like the. Oh, yeah, you guys are. You know, critics loved us, but we weren't like, the star. And we then were at Disney World, and it was like, oh, these are our people. You know, the people from the Midwest and all the people who came to Disney World, we were like rock stars there. And it was the first time we even got a sense of how people were being impacted, you know, it was crazy.
- [38:17]
Zibby Owens
Crazy. Well, my mom. My grandmother's from Cincinnati, and my mom is from Dayton. And I don't know, maybe there's something in the blood of the Midwest. Yes.
- [38:26]
Eileen Heisler
Midwest knows Midwest. And I was. I grew up in Cincinnati, so, yes, I saw that.
- [38:32]
Zibby Owens
Well, if you guys ever want to write a book, I know you would have a million offers, but I do publish books, too, and anyway.
- [38:38]
Deanne Helene
Amazing.
- [38:39]
Zibby Owens
We should talk.
- [38:40]
Deanne Helene
Amazing.
- [38:40]
Zibby Owens
We love that story. I'm so excited about what you did, and thank you. Thank you for bringing my family closer. Closer together. Really.
- [38:48]
Deanne Helene
Thank you. And your essay, when it came, it came to us, I had not caught it. I'd seen your essay about the fire. It's funny, though. I knew what you're writing, but then when it came to me, I was just like. I showed it to my mom and I was like. I was. We were so deeply. That you were so touched by the show.
- [39:02]
Eileen Heisler
Very flattered.
- [39:04]
Zibby Owens
Yeah.
- [39:04]
Eileen Heisler
It just means the world that you enjoy.
- [39:06]
Zibby Owens
I'm one of. I'm one of millions. But, you know. Anyway, well, thank you both so much. To be continued in person, please.
- [39:14]
Deanne Helene
Yes.
- [39:14]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for letting me join. Just, you know, like, gush.
- [39:18]
Eileen Heisler
Well, anytime.
- [39:20]
Deanne Helene
Same time tomorrow.
- [39:23]
Zibby Owens
All right. Thank you for coming. You too. You too. Okay, bye. Bye. Bye.
- [39:28]
Deanne Helene
Bye. Thanks so much.
- [39:29]
Zibby Owens
Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram Iby Owens and and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books. If you're an H Vac technician and a call comes in, Grainger knows that you need a partner that helps you find the right product fast and hassle free. And you know that when the first problem of the day is a clanking blower motor, there's no need to break a sweat. With Grainger's easy, easy to use website and product details, you're confident you'll soon have everything humming right along. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [40:22]
Deanne Helene
We interrupt this program to bring you an important Wayfair message. Wayfair's got style Tips for every home. This is Stiles Mackenzie helping you make those rooms sing. Today's Style Tip when it comes to making a statement, treat bold pattern patterns like neutrals. Go wild like an untamed animal. Print area rug under a rustic farmhouse table. From wayfair.com fierce this has been your Wayfair style tip to keep those interiors superior.
- [40:49]
Eileen Heisler
Wayfair Every Style, Every Home
- [40:53]
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