Elliot Cosgrove, FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS: On Being Jewish Today

Summary

Episode Summary: Elliot Cosgrove, For Such a Time as This: On Being Jewish Today

Podcast: Totally Booked with Zibby
Host: Zibby Owens
Guest: Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove
Release Date: June 21, 2025

Introduction to the Guest

In this insightful episode, Zibby Owens welcomes Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove, a distinguished voice in American Jewry and the Senior Rabbi of Park Avenue Synagogue in New York City. With an impressive background that includes ordination from the Jewish Theological Seminary, a doctorate from the University of Chicago Divinity School, and numerous leadership roles within Jewish organizations, Rabbi Cosgrove brings a wealth of experience and wisdom to the conversation. He is the author of For Such a Time as This: On Being Jewish Today, among other significant works.

Genesis of the Book

Rabbi Cosgrove begins by recounting the origins of his book, which was catalyzed by the tragic events of October 7th. He explains how longstanding themes such as the tensions between Diaspora Jewry and Israel, hyphenated identities, and the nature of antisemitism were intensifying, prompting him to contribute meaningfully to the ongoing discourse. Faced with the urgent need to publish timely reflections, Rabbi Cosgrove collaborated with HarperCollins to produce the manuscript within a demanding timeframe, ultimately releasing the book to coincide with the one-year anniversary of the events.

Rabbi Cosgrove [04:47]: "Truth is, a book agent who I had been working with for some time said, let's get a proposal and let's see how it can happen... It was crazy to write at that pace."

Themes Explored in the Book

Community and Solidarity

A central theme Rabbi Cosgrove addresses is the renewed sense of community and solidarity that emerged post-October 7th. He describes a "tribal awakening" where feelings of vulnerability were interwoven with a strengthened kinship among Jewish communities.

Zibby Owens [08:00]: "Deep loneliness. But we have also experienced something beautiful and uniting, a tribal awakening."

Genesis vs. Exodus Jews

Rabbi Cosgrove introduces the concepts of "Genesis Jews" and "Exodus Jews" to delineate positive and negative identities within Judaism. Genesis Jews embody the proactive, blessing-oriented identity from Abraham's call, while Exodus Jews represent a defensive stance against oppression and hatred, likened to the biblical Exodus narrative.

Rabbi Cosgrove [12:37]: "Genesis Jews being the sort of go forth the call to Abraham to be a people, to be a blessing... Exodus Jews... had to play defense as well as offense."

Fighting Antisemitism

Addressing the multifaceted nature of antisemitism, Rabbi Cosgrove distinguishes between overt, violent antisemitism and more subtle, institutionalized forms that marginalize Jewish voices in various sectors. He emphasizes the necessity of combating both through active advocacy and community engagement.

Rabbi Cosgrove [25:15]: "There are people, folk who have worked on combating antisemitism... you have to fight antisemitism on the streets, and you also need a hearts and mind campaign."

Intergenerational Dialogue

One of the poignant discussions revolves around fostering meaningful conversations between generations, particularly addressing the evolving perspectives of younger Jews. Rabbi Cosgrove shares a hypothetical yet deeply personal dialogue with a young woman named Maya, illustrating the challenges and approaches to bridging differing views on Jewish identity and Israeli policies.

Rabbi Cosgrove [19:53]: "Maya is not fictitious... her Jewish identity is not aligned with the decision making of the Israeli government."

Personal Reflections and Shifts

Rabbi Cosgrove reflects on how the events of October 7th have fundamentally shifted his approach and responsibilities as a rabbi. Previously focused on fostering positive Jewish life, he now finds himself also addressing the defensive needs of the community against rising antisemitism.

Rabbi Cosgrove [12:37]: "On October 8, we all woke up and realized that we had to play defense as well as offense."

Hope and Future Directions

Despite acknowledging the grim realities and ongoing challenges, Rabbi Cosgrove expresses a resilient sense of hope rooted in Jewish tradition and the enduring aspiration for a peaceful future. He references the historical perseverance of the Jewish people and underscores the importance of maintaining hope as a fundamental aspect of Jewish identity.

Rabbi Cosgrove [28:24]: "For me, it's kind of... I'll continue to hold [a two-state solution] as my North Star ideal. Absolutely, yes. So I can't live any other way."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Rabbi Cosgrove reiterating the significance of intentional listening, empathy, and constructive dialogue within and beyond the Jewish community. He advocates for a balanced approach that honors tradition while adapting to contemporary challenges, ensuring the resilience and unity of Jewish identity in uncertain times.

Rabbi Cosgrove [19:55]: "Intergenerational conversations, Zibby, is so, so important with the Mayas, the Gen Zers of the world."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Rabbi Cosgrove [04:47]: "It was crazy to write at that pace."
• Zibby Owens [08:00]: "Deep loneliness. But we have also experienced something beautiful and uniting, a tribal awakening."
• Rabbi Cosgrove [12:37]: "Genesis Jews being the sort of go forth the call to Abraham to be a people, to be a blessing... Exodus Jews... had to play defense as well as offense."
• Rabbi Cosgrove [25:15]: "You have to fight antisemitism on the streets, and you also need a hearts and mind campaign."
• Rabbi Cosgrove [19:55]: "Intergenerational conversations... is so, so important with the Mayas, the Gen Zers of the world."
• Rabbi Cosgrove [28:24]: "I can't live any other way."

Final Thoughts

Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove's For Such a Time as This: On Being Jewish Today offers a profound exploration of Jewish identity, community resilience, and the ongoing struggle against antisemitism. Through his personal narratives and scholarly insights, he provides listeners with a thoughtful roadmap for navigating the complexities of modern Jewish life, emphasizing the importance of hope, solidarity, and active engagement in shaping a just and peaceful future.

Transcript

[Zibby Owens]

Hi, listeners of Totally Booked with Zibby. This June we have one episode coming out every single day. And to celebrate that, I've started the June Listening Club. You can sign up on zibbedia.com or you can just keep listening and every day there'll be a little quiz on Instagram. We're giving prizes away every single day this month. You're gonna get amazing stuff. You would all be invited to a party and a zoom at the end of the month to celebrate with a special certificate. So sign up on Zibbe Media today. Make sure following Totally Booked with Zy on Instagram and get ready to listen. Make it a challenge. June is crazy. Find some airtime for yourself. Put it on in the background. Get ready to listen, learn, laugh, and enjoy life.

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Ready to order?

[Zibby Owens]

Yes. We're earning unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with a Capital One Saver Card. So let's just get one of everything. Everything.

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Fire everything.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Zibby Owens]

Of course. It's a delight. Okay, you were writing this book. Tell us the timeline of when you started writing this book, the events of October 7th, and everything that's sort of been happening in the world as the book has entered into the bookstores and all that.

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Yeah. Oh wow. So the story of this book is that it began obviously as a project post October 7th, but really some of the ideas were happening and prior to October 7th about the tensions between Diaspora Jewry and Israel, hyphenated identities, the nature of antisemitism. A lot of these themes I had been touching on. I've been a rabbi at Park Avenue synagogue for nearly 18 years, right now, but the October 7th made me think of, how can I contribute to the conversation? How can I contribute to the Jewish people in a moment such as we were all experiencing? And I had been doing a lot of fundraising, I had been doing a lot of writing and advocacy and public work for the Jewish community both here and in Israel. And at that moment in time, truth is, a book agent who I had been working with for some time said, let's get a proposal and let's see how it can happen. And I submitted something and HarperCollins picked it up and they said, this is great, but we want it to be out at the one year point of October 7th. And so they said, if you can get us a manuscript, this was between sort of February 1st and May of 2024, so it can be published at the one year mark. And it was crazy it was to write at that pace. I was still working, I was up before dawn every day and just got it out with a lot of help from a lot of friends, and it was published. And of course, one of the most disorienting things about writing a book is that the events were and still are happening in real time. And I was speaking to my editor and I was saying, well, what happens if the hostages are released? What happens if the war is gone? What happens if this whole thing about antisemitism is just kind of a passing fancy and we're all kind of revert back to normal? And I said, let that be our problems. Let it be the case. And unfortunately, as you and I both know, the hostages are still hostages. The antisemitism and anti Zionism still exists. You know, these still remain questions that we're facing.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, I mean, it's impressive to get a whole book written yourself. And not only were you working in writing, but the stress of everything going on in the world, everything is elevated right now as the uncertainty shrouds everything we're doing. So there's still that added layer. Can I read a paragraph or two of your book? Is that okay?

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Yeah, I have it here too, if you want the rabbi voice, but you go for it.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay. Just like a tiny little, tiny section. This is what life is like post October 7th here. Because you do have the one thing that is true for all of us, I think, which is this renewed sense of community. Post October 7th. And you wrote about it in a beautiful way. So first, the disorientation that suddenly we were, you know, I'll just read it. I don't have to summarize it for a time the streets of New York were canvassed with photos of the hostages. As we passed them, my wife would tap and kiss each one as a religious Jew would kiss a mezuzah on the lintel of a doorpost. Often the signs on the streets and on social media feeds reflect the other side. At best, ignoring the events of October 7, at worst, blaming the attacks on Israel. Wait, weren't we the victims? Sometimes it feels like the world has lost its moral compass. We feel incredulity. Incredulity? I don't know. Incredulity. How do you pronounce it?

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

You got it. You got it.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay, incredulity. Disbelief. And, yes, deep loneliness. But we have also experienced something beautiful and uniting, a tribal awakening. Our feelings of vulnerability are intermixed with solidarity, our disillusionment with moral clarity. There is a sharpening of our sense of kinship, the feeling that indeed, we are a people who dwell apart. And you keep going from there. But I thought that was beautiful. Talk a little bit about that and how you've seen that in real life and in your experience.

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Look, we all felt a sense of Whiplash on October 7th. We were going about our lives. Things weren't perfect by any stretch, but we keep on keeping on. And then this moment of time where the attacks happened on October 7, not only attacks on Israelis, attacks on Jews, attacks on humanity, but we ourselves, when the protests came, when the hostage posters were torn down, somehow people who were victimized were thrust into the other side, the aggressor. And where did this come from? How did this happen? And it was very disorienting. But like other times in life when everyone is telling you X, sometimes that's actually a moment of clarity. And you say, you know what? I'm actually going to stick to my guns here. I know right from wrong. And I know that whereas reasonable people can have reasonable debates and disagreements about how to resolve the conflict of the Middle east, the sexual violence, the physical violence, the murder, the hostage taking, that is not what civilized people do. And I think that that's just a moment of clarity. And I actually speak in another chapter about the Garden of Eden and the ability to know right and wrong, one for each other in the Garden. And I think it's a moment of time where we have to say, this is just wrong. This is just wrong. And. And so that. That awareness, that moral clarity also sort of, you can connect the dots to this sense of tribal identity, this sense of, you know, some people call. I mean, you've written about this Zibi at great length. But the idea of a sense of cohesion as a people in a way, circling the wagons. But also this internal question of, well, what does this thing of Jewish identity actually mean to me? Not being defined by those who hate me, but on my own terms, what does it mean to be Jewish now? And I think that I've seen that in the number of Jews in pews. I've seen that in philanthropy, I've seen that in advocacy. I've seen that in everyone becoming an accidental activist. Everyone's finding their lane. For some it's collecting socks and sending them out to Israel. For others, it's going on solidarity missions. For others it's getting lighting Shabbat candles and baking challahs and inviting people to your table. Everyone has to find their lane, right? For me, I run a community. I write right. Those are the arrows in my quiver. I don't suggest those are the arrows for everyone. Right? But it's this idea and the name of the book is for such a time as this, I talk about that moment when Esther had to step up to the calling of the hour. And everyone needs to have their Esther moment. And one of the inspiring things in the face of all the trauma, Zibby, has been people figuring out how they can contribute to the well being of the Jewish people.

[Zibby Owens]

When you think about your own relationship to Judaism, which has been obviously lifelong, you've dedicated your career to this. As you said, you're running this whole community. In the aftermath when so many other people are finding their lanes, you are already in a lane. Has your lane shifted at all? Have you started driving faster down your lane? Like, has anything fundamental shifted for you personally?

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Yes. October 7, like 9, 11, like other historic dates of trauma or of triumph, I think there's a before and an after. And I think just as my rabbinate's different post Covid in a much more particular way, Covid affected the globe, this affects a certain conflict and a certain people. My job as a rabbi has changed. I make the distinction in the book between Genesis Jews and Exodus Jews. Genesis Jews being the sort of go forth the call to Abraham to be a people, to be a blessing and other nations will be blessed by you. That's a very positive identity. Exodus Jews. I suggest in the first line of the book of Exodus, a new Pharaoh arises who didn't know Joseph, who enslaves the Israelites, who fears the Israelites. And that's a negative identity, the negative push of being defined by others. I think that I was working day and night and prior to October 7th, to try to serve the Genesis identity, to come up with my colleagues here at the synagogue of the most dynamic expression of positive Jewish life and living. On October 8, we all woke up and realized that we had to play defense as well as offense. We had to fight antisemitism. We had to equip our kids with the tools to give expression to the Zionist story and to arrive on campus and be armed with the counter argument to the narrative they were going to experience on campus. So a whole sort of circle the wagons response to this Exodus identity of what it means to be a Jew today. The trick now is how to walk and chew gum at the same time. Right? The threats are still there. I don't know when this podcast is going to be dropped, but last week something happened at Columbia University. It's not going away. It's not going away. This is not a passing fancy, this blurred and pernicious line between anti Zionism and anti Semitism. We're still facing it every day. So how do we fight the good fight? But also remember that it's about inviting people to our home for Shabbat. It's about being connected to community. Being Jewish is about being literate and loving as a Jew. In all the positive expressions, I will say, and just one last thought is that it has shifted also. And now we're 500 and nearly 50 days into this conflict. I think it was a circle, the wagon shields up moment at the beginning, shoulder to shoulder with our Israeli brothers and sisters and Jews around the globe. Zibi Now I feel that as a rabbi, my job is to keep these crazy Jews from tearing themselves apart from within. You and I have had some exchanges about this, about there are people within the Jewish community who, as opposed to fighting the good fight, would rather expend their energy to attack within our own tent and think that our enemies are laughing at us. We, who are such a small people who face such enormous challenges right now, should waste our energy in that sort of way. And so in Israel, things are not simple, very polarized society. Here in America, things are very polarized. But there's a way to disagree without attacking someone and accusing someone of being an enemy of the people. And so I've expended a lot of time of late to try to give my community, and by extension the broader community, the language by which we can hold the complexities of the moment and not tear ourselves apart as a Jewish people.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Really correct and look, it involves like embracing complex truths, right? We can be totally unrepentant about Israel's right to self defense and self and we can ask the question of empathy and name Palestinian suffering and talk about relief and aid to Gaza and really stand tall and proud to say it's because we love Israel that we need to actively talk about the day after plan that please God when the hostages are back, when this war abates, right? How can Israel stand side to side, neighbor to neighbor with its Palestinian community? And I think these are Zionist questions. These are beautiful, hard, prickly questions, but we shouldn't shy away from them. And they're important to ask.

[Zibby Owens]

Absolutely. And actually you do such a great job in that towards the end of the book you have a fictitious conversation with a friend of your, one of your Kids, a girl named Maya who is questioning all the things. And you go into detail and you're like, ugh, this is what I wish I had said to her. Like, let me lay it out right here. Can you sort of summarize that for listeners?

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Maya is not fictitious.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay, sorry, but the conversation was fictitious.

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Or not conversation that I should have with her. But like, Maya and the Mayas of the world are very real. This is, I have college age kids. This is a kid who grew up in my house. Literally, like I'd come home at night, wake up in the morning, she's at my kitchen table, BFFs with my daughter. And all of a sudden, you know, and she approached me and was like, why do you have a flag, an Israeli flag on your bema? Why do you say the prayer for the state of Israel? That's a national statement. That's not, you know, we're a faith. And you know, and what came out of that conversation was that her Jewishness is not aligned with. Right. Very well educated kid, Jewish day school, Israel education, Jewish summer camp, synagogue, everything. Everything. People make the mistake and say, well, these kids just don't know. These kids know. And she's just saying, how do I square the circle? That my Jewish identity is not aligned with the decision making of the Israeli government. And so I model in the book how to have that conversation in a way that. Back to what we're talking about of sort of this engaged listening dialogue. To be curious, not furious, right? The truths that I hold as self evident are not the truths that the Maya generation holds to be self evident. And to have that conversation in a way that acknowledges that her, her reality is one where she grew up. You know, that the only prime minister she knows is that of Netanyahu, Right. If you were born in 22,000 or after that, that the only policy she knows is one that seems to be, you know, making a two state solution impossible. That the only paradigm she has is that of Israel as a Goliath to the Palestinian. David, you can't tell someone that's not her reality. That's her reality. And so I'm a product, probably a bit like you, of like that earlier moment, that Oslo moment, that maybe we can all figure everything out in some way. And I think to sort of say, Maya, you have a point, right? This is your reality. But we also need to acknowledge that Israel, 47% of the Jewish global community lives in a neighborhood that's not the Upper east side, the Middle East, Israel surrounded by enemies who would see Israel's destruction if given the chance. So how do you square the circle of your values with, you know, your hopes for the Jewish people? And I think there's a path of intentional listening, of acknowledging the claims of another, of breathing, not attacking and communicating. And I just think that intergenerational conversations, Zibby, is so, so important with the Mayas, the gen zers of the world.

[Zibby Owens]

I agree. By the way, what do you think of Mayor Adams new initiative? And again, this will be coming out a little bit later, but he's just announced the first citywide department of combating antisemitism. Did you hear about this?

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

You know, you know more than I do. I haven't. We had the synagogue gal. If this happened this week, I don't know.

[Zibby Owens]

It happened this week. Okay. Well, he said with a million Jews sort of in and out of the city, it's his responsibility. And so it's the first city to have a task force of sorts to combat antisemitism. So who knows?

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Yeah, there have been. There are people, folk who have worked on combating antisemitism. You know, Deborah Louder was, I think, in the de Blasio, and I think, you know, you know, you have to, you know, fight. You know, I make a distinction in the book Zibby about the different kinds of antisemitism, right? There's a crude sort of, you know, end of a fist or the swastika painted on a wall, but there's also sort of the sort of what I call the higher, more genteel antisemitism that, you know, takes Jewish and Zionist voices out of public space that you know better than anyone about, you know, what happens in the publishing industry, what's happened in other arts and entertainment. Right. That we don't allow certain voices into our tent. Right. Not an anti Semitic screed online that is antisemitism. And the thing is that sometimes there's this sort of seamless slide from the higher to the lower antisemitism, right? From the genteel to the. To the brute force of a fist. And I think it's got, you know, so you need a battle against antisemitism on the streets, and you also need a hearts and mind campaign to make sure on campuses and cultural institutions and publishing in all sorts of industries that we throw a flag on the field early and actively.

[Zibby Owens]

I love that. Speaking of brute force antisemitism, you tell this incredibly disturbing story of what happened to your cousins when you were young. I'm so sorry that that happened. And that is part of your family lore. And it's almost like no surprise that you became a rabbi or something to try to defend. Can you share a little bit about that and how. How you feel looking back on that incident?

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Yeah, well, even though I grew up in Los Angeles, my family roots are all British. If you ever wondered what a name Cosgrove is for, you know, a rabbi. My folks moved here, and just as I was born, and my cousins who were in the UK and Leeds and in Manchester were sort of viciously violently attacked on their way to school. They were wearing their school uniforms to their Jewish day school. And it wasn't just the violence which was near death by a gang of thugs, but it was also the sort of bystanders in the face of that violence which shook them to the core. And these guys got off these thugs with sort of a slap on the wrists. And my cousins, and each in their own different ways, have all been living with the sort of ripple effect of that attack that day. And I personally, though, was nowhere near at the time, by dint of the fact that we are mothers or sisters, and I sort of live with that could be me, you know, had my parents made a different decision of where I was going to grow up. And so that story is sort of somehow imprinted in my soul and the soul of my family. And again, it goes to sort of the viciousness of antisemitism. It's illogic, right? These were just school kids going off to study one day and just the nature of hatred, right? How did it fester? How did it develop in. In those individuals? What were the cultural cues that might have made them feel that it was okay and that their actions would go unpunished? And then probably nothing to do with Zionism or otherwise. That was just pure, unadulterated hatred. And so in the book, I sort of explore sort of the. The pedigree, the. The DNA of these ancient hatreds. And again, suggests that we have to fight this fight, because American Jews often thought that, okay, antisemitism, something in Europe, antisemitism is something historic. It's really not something that affects us. And I think post October 7th, we're all saying, well, maybe we're not so different. Maybe these ancient hatreds are very present and very present in our own communities.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, again, I'm so sorry that that happened in your family and in so many families who have experienced hatred like that. Do you have hope? Do you feel hopeful?

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

It's hard. I want to be honest with you. It's very Hard. I feel that there are so many things that need to be done. I think short term, you know, right now as we're speaking, Israel is planning a reentry into Gaza. The hostages are still hostages. In a short term, I don't see light. In a medium term, I don't see that next day answer. And in a long term, I don't see sort of, you know, easy resolution in terms of demographic trends and both within Israel and in the Arab world, period. So that's the downer part of it, I think to be a Jew is to be hopeful. Right? When the children of Israel left Egypt, they went towards the promised land, whether or not they were actually going to arrive there. The great prophets of the biblical tradition, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and otherwise longed for return to the land. Whether or not that was going to happen in their lifespan. For 2000 years of exiles, Jews said at the end of a Passover Seder, we said next year in Jerusalem, full well, knowing that it wasn't going to happen in our span of years. There's something in the DNA of the Jewish people to work towards, aspire towards, to take agency towards creating a future, even if that future may not be experienced in our own day. So for me, it's kind of, you know what Heschel once said, I'm an optimist against my better judgment, I have to work towards something. I write a whole chapter on a two state solution. Is something that's going to happen right now? Probably not. But is it something that I continue to hold as my North Star ideal? Absolutely, yes. So I can't live any other way.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, Rabbi, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time that you wrote this book in the midst of complete upheaval in the world and personally. So thank you so much.

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Thank you, thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram ibyohans and Spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

[Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove]

Ready to order?

[Zibby Owens]

Yes. We're earning unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with a Capital One Saver Card. So let's just get one of everything. Everything. Fire everything. The Capital One Saver card is at table 27 and they're earning unlimited 3% cash back. Yes, Chef. This is so nice. Had a feeling you'd want 3% cash back on dessert. Ooh, tiramisu. Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment with the Capital One Saver Card Capital One what's in your wallet terms apply. See capitalone.com for details. Quince believes that quality products shouldn't be a luxury. Whether It's a breathable 100% European linen shirt or effortless stretch cotton pants, all of their high end top quality pieces are about half the cost of similar brands. Yes, really. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quints gives you luxury pieces without the markup. Get the high end goods you [e-mail] upgrade for free shipping and 365 day returns. What makes a great pair of glasses? At Warby Parker, it's all the invisible extras without the extra cost. Their designer quality frames start at $95 including prescription lenses plus scratch resistant, smudge resistant and anti reflective coatings and UV protection and free adjustments for life. To find your next pair of glasses, sunglasses or contact lenses, or to find the Warby Parker store nearest you, head over to warbyparker.com that's warbyparker.com.