Erin O. White, LIKE FAMILY: A Novel

Summary

Podcast Summary: Totally Booked with Zibby — Erin O. White, LIKE FAMILY: A Novel

Host: Zibby Owens
Guest: Erin O. White
Date: December 4, 2025
Episode Focus: The debut novel Like Family by Erin O. White

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Episode Overview

In this engaging conversation, Zibby Owens sits down with Erin O. White, author of Like Family, to discuss the making of her acclaimed debut novel. The episode covers the intertwined stories in the book, themes of parenthood, queer domesticity, family secrets, navigating middle age, and the evolution of relationships. White also shares her journey as a writer, her approach to character development, and her experiences in crafting both memoir and fiction. The episode is rich with reflections on life, literature, and the honest messiness of being human.

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Main Topics & Discussion Points

1. What Is Like Family About?

[04:01]

• Novel centers on three interconnected couples (two lesbian, one straight) living in upstate New York.
• Couples’ lives are intimately interwoven; the story follows their relationships and family dynamics.
• Highlights include richly drawn characters—Caroline, Ruth, Mike, and their children, especially Luca and Sita.

Quote:

“Like Family is about three couples, sort of interconnected families who live in upstate New York. [...] The three couples move sort of through the book, together and apart in their relationships and the way their families are intertwined.”
—Erin O. White [04:01]

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2. Character Development & Emotional Insight

[03:12–08:52]

• Zibby admires the novel’s structure, likening each chapter to a short story with complete emotional arcs.
• Erin describes how she embeds her worldview and spiritual musings into characters—for example, Caroline’s belief that "the soul does not need a mate."
• Discussion of themes such as loneliness in children, the complexities of female friendship, and evolving romantic relationships in early middle age.

Memorable Quotes:

“You had a line in there, something like, 'There’s no pain like a child’s loneliness,' or something. Oh my God. That so got me.”
—Zibby Owens [05:23]

“She’s a person who would want to own something essential about herself for herself…even before I was a mother or wife, I sort of was giving the world my sort of physicalness.”
—Erin O. White on character Caroline [06:14]

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3. Representation of Identity and Community

[07:49–10:56]

• Jewish identity is present without being central—a meaningful backdrop, especially for Ruth.
• White wanted to portray characters from diverse backgrounds and experiences in a natural, integrated way.
• Exploration of changing passion and desire as couples age, and how love and intimacy shift over time.

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4. Parenting, Secrets, & Teenage Angst

[10:01–13:46]

• Sita’s storyline: She learns her true parentage early; her mom’s past affair comes into the light.
• Erin discusses the chaos and beauty of raising teenagers, the weight of parental mistakes, and the deep tenderness involved.
• Both Zibby and Erin share personal experiences with teenagers, emphasizing the universality and emotional intensity of that phase.

Quote:

“You love a teenager in a way that is just really powerful and all of it…their feelings are so big, but your feelings for them are really big, too.”
—Erin O. White [12:32]

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5. Themes of Friendship, Social Comparison & Perfectionism

[13:44–15:46]

• White touches on the competitive, performative aspects of social media and Instagram culture, using a couple in the book as a foil.
• The conversation reflects on how social comparison and “perfectionism culture” persist beyond youth.

Notable Reference:

“Adulthood is just high school with money.”
—Paraphrasing Woody Allen, discussed by Erin [14:25]

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6. Erin’s Writing Journey

[20:54–23:13]

• A lifelong reader, Erin initially pursued science and social justice before stumbling into writing through a community class.
• She earned an MFA, did nonfiction work, wrote a memoir (Given Up For You), then transitioned to fiction.
• Like Family was born from a desire to see a queer domestic novel in the tradition of classics by Sue Miller, Mary Gordon, and Laurie Colwin.

Quote:

“I really wanted to write a queer domestic novel…I didn’t know if it would work and I didn’t know if anyone would want it, but it did.”
—Erin O. White [23:00]

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7. The Publishing Process

[23:21–24:36]

• Erin’s agent, Claudia Ballard, was instrumental; after revisions, the book sold quickly with interest from multiple editors.
• Whitney Frick at Dial Press became her editor, whom Erin describes as “one in a million."

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8. Memoir & Writing From Life

[24:40–27:21]

• Erin’s memoir chronicles her Catholic conversion, social justice work, and coming out in her twenties.
• She finds memoir writing strenuous and revealing, noting the differences between fiction’s flexibility and memoir’s raw reality.
• She recently wrote an essay for The New York Times about giving up on cooking family dinners.

Quote:

“Writing about yourself, creating art from your personal life is really hard…in fiction…you can move things around. When it’s your life, you have to really dig in and make that meaning and really find the story.”
—Erin O. White [27:00]

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9. Attachments to Characters & What’s Next

[27:27–28:06]

• Erin is sad to leave her characters but feels she ended their stories in a satisfying place.
• She’s working on a new novel centered around sisters.

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10. Crafting Setting & Structure

[28:06–30:23]

• The novel’s setting—a pond and rural homes in upstate New York—is inspired by Erin’s years in western Massachusetts.
• She reflects on using natural and domestic spaces as thematic and emotional anchors throughout the story.

Quote:

“It’s a really fun part of writing to find those settings that you can really see so clearly in your head…and get them onto the page in different ways.”
—Erin O. White [29:13]

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11. Life in Minneapolis & Final Reflections

[30:56–32:01]

• Erin currently lives in Minneapolis, does some editing and coaching, and praises the city’s vibrant writing community.
• Zibby expresses heartfelt enthusiasm for Erin’s work and future projects.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On character insight:
  “It’s so fun to muse inside other people’s heads…Nice to get out of my own head.”
  —Erin O. White [07:44]

• On parenthood:
  “Parenting teenagers, you kind of don’t always know what to do…because oftentimes you have made a mistake.”
  —Erin O. White [11:30]

• On letting characters go:
  “I feel like I got them to a great place and I just feel like they should just do what they want on their own.”
  —Erin O. White [27:34]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction to Erin and book praise: [02:31–03:55]
• Explaining the novel’s premise: [04:01–04:58]
• Themes of soul, identity, and character development: [05:23–07:36]
• Jewish identity and richer background details: [07:49–08:03]
• Relationships and evolving intimacy: [08:20–09:47]
• Parenting, secret, and teenage turmoil: [10:01–13:46]
• Social comparison and adulthood’s challenges: [13:44–15:46]
• Erin’s journey to writing: [20:54–23:13]
• Publishing process: [23:21–24:36]
• Memoir writing vs. fiction: [24:40–27:21]
• Saying goodbye to characters and new projects: [27:27–28:06]
• Setting’s role and symbolism: [28:06–30:23]
• Minneapolis writing community: [30:56–32:01]
• Closing affirmations: [31:40–32:01]

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Tone and Takeaways

Zibby and Erin’s conversation is warm, insightful, and filled with mutual admiration. The episode is a must-listen for fans of literary fiction, those interested in the writing life, and anyone drawn to nuanced portrayals of family and identity. Listeners are left with both practical insights into writing and a deeper appreciation for the richness of everyday lives as depicted in contemporary fiction.

Final endorsement:

“You have a new huge fan in me. I really think—I mean it. I love how you write. I loved this book and your story, and I’m just going to be cheering you on as the book comes out and all the rest, so congratulations.”
—Zibby Owens [31:40]

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Transcript

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[Erin O. White]

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[Erin O. White]

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[Erin O. White]

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[Erin O. White]

Can't I just let it go?

[Zibby Owens]

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Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books in my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram. Ibbe Owens.

Erin O. White is the author of Like Family, a novel. By the way, this has already been picked as the Barnes and Noble Book Club Pick and also Sarah selects a 52 year old debut novelist. Aaron O. White is also an essayist and the author of the memoir Given up for your. After growing up in Colorado and living for 20 years in Western Massachusetts, she now lives with her wife and daughters in Minneapolis. By the way, I loved this book. Enjoy. Welcome, Erin. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about your absolutely beautiful novel, Like Family. Congratulations. I loved this book. You are a really gifted writer and I'm really excited about it.

[Erin O. White]

Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be here and I'm so happy that you liked the book.

[Zibby Owens]

I did. I really, really did. I felt like, like each chapter could just be a short story that you read in English class. And it's like fully contained and you're like. You get a sense of the character so fast and what they're thinking and feeling and all the little details. And, you know, even like the Bolognese scene when, when. When Caroline first meets Mike or something like that.

[Erin O. White]

And.

[Zibby Owens]

And you talk about how he was behind the bar and just like, filling. I know you said it better than me now I can't remember something like filling the garnish dish and you just, like, see it. That's all you need. That's only a couple words. Anyway. I feel like you do that in every scene that, like, immediately we get the picture. And I love that type of.

[Erin O. White]

Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay, tell. Sorry for the rambling intro there. Tell everyone what Like Family is about.

[Erin O. White]

It's not rambling at all. Like Family. Okay, so like Family is about three couples, sort of interconnected families who live in upstate New York. One of the couples has four kids and are married. They're married to have four kids and live on sort of like a gentleman, although it's actually a gentlewoman's farm a little bit outside of town. The other couple. So I should say also that two of the couples are lesbian couples and one of them is straight. The other lesbian couple is kind of like a cool business owning. They own a sort of like a viral bespoke pottery company in this town, and they have twins children. And then the last couple is a straight couple who've moved up from. Who've moved from Boston. And they have one child whose name is Luca. And the three couples moved sort of through the book, together and apart in their relationships and the way their families are intertwined.

[Zibby Owens]

This is gonna sound crazy, but right before you, I interviewed a psychologist about this book, Love the Teen youn have. And she was talking about, like, identifying different things. And I was like, I need Luca to see Dr. Lockhart. Like, how can I. Could she help some fictional characters in my life right now, please? Because I feel like that would be really helpful.

[Erin O. White]

He's a sweet boy.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, you had a line in there. Something like, there's no pain, like a child's loneliness or something. Oh, my God. That so got me. Oh, my gosh. You also had this other line about the role of souls and soulmates. And then you said something that I'd never heard before, something like how the soul is actually the only thing that does not need a mate. That you believe souls are fully formed and tell me more about that. I loved that.

[Erin O. White]

You know, it's interesting. I think it's so interesting creating fiction because you can put so much of what you believe about the world, right. And about the cosmos into your characters lives. And then you can also sort of try on other ideas that maybe don't necessarily belong to you, but you feel like, belong to your character. So I feel like. And it's Caroline who says that, who doesn't believe that a soul has made it. And she's a very particular character in that she has. So she's extremely beautiful and sort of received by the world as this just like beauty. But she has a lot of sort of like, suspicions about how people really feel about her. And she is in some ways a bit of a fortress, which is why her friendship with the other. One of the other main characters, Ruth, is so profoundly important to her. And I think I sort of experienced her as a person who would want to own something essential about herself for herself. Does that make sense? Like, I really believe that she was a person who was like, I, even before I was a mother or a wife, I sort of was giving the world my sort of physicalness. Right. And I felt. And she probably felt like she belonged to people in various ways, but she's also quite a private person. So I was like, I bet she actually would think this.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

And it was a way for me to sort of illustrate her. But as also, like, also as having. And I really like to think about my characters in this way, as having a, you know, having a. Having a spiritual life that doesn't necessarily appear on the page, but of course infuses them right, as people and guides their thought processes and their motivations and is sort of their own private thing.

[Zibby Owens]

Interesting.

[Erin O. White]

So I think that's where I sort of got those musings for her. It's so fun to muse inside other people's Heads.

[Zibby Owens]

Right. Nice to get out of our own.

[Erin O. White]

Nice to get out of my own head.

[Zibby Owens]

I also love the Jewish characters in the book and how you portrayed that not as a central driving force of the book, but just like a nice piece in the background with enough scattered about that it was meaningful but not overpowering.

[Erin O. White]

Okay. I'm glad. I wanted to. Ruth, that character came to me so fully formed and I just knew that she was a Jewish person in a particular way. And I just wanted some of. I just wanted that to come through and the liveliness of her and her marriage and. And her. And also for Toby and for Evie.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah. And I love how you show different ways that sort of love and lust and passion and relationships evolve in different ways. I mean, that sounds like such an oversimplification, but the young, you know, rip our clothes off moments. The older, quieter. She just took off her towel and laid on her husband. Like, that's really. It's such a. It was such a nice arc, like a full circle how. How things evolve. And you treated it with such care.

[Erin O. White]

Oh, thank you. I sort of think a little bit about the book is like a coming of middle age novel. Sort of the idea that like these people are just coming into early middle. So they're in their early 40s. And I think you hold so much of that. Those. I mean, you do your whole life, but you hold so much of those old passions. Right. And you have a memory of them and you're wondering about sort of like how your lives of desire and attraction will sort of follow you through middle age. But then you're also. You're also so embodied as a middle aged person. Right. In early middle age, if you've been married a long time, you said this super physical intimacy with the person you're married to. But it's so casual and so unspoken in so many ways. So I think that was part of what I was trying to do. Just like in that scene with Carolyn and Mike. Just like those are two bodies who have been together for so long. Right. And there's just that casualness about it, which is so great.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah. So nice. I guess I could have also given a referral to one of the other characters, to the doctor, now that I'm thinking about it. But what's her name? Starts with an S. Oh my gosh. I'm blanking on her name.

[Erin O. White]

She's my teenager. That's right, Yes. I mean, my teenager in the book. She's not my real life teenager.

[Zibby Owens]

Yes, I know Luca was a little bit younger But Cita gets some very surprising news early on. She is a typical acting out with teenager. Things evolve. You know, it leads up to this. This whole thing towards the end. Anyway, tell me a little bit about her as a character, about how we can better parent our teens. And like, what do you do when. When things in your past suddenly.

[Erin O. White]

Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

Are things that your. Your kids need to confront as well.

[Erin O. White]

Right. Yeah, it's. That's a. Yeah. Right. That's a huge question. I will actually just sort of share what it is because it's revealed on sort of page two of the book. So I'm not really giving anything away.

[Zibby Owens]

I'm always very appreciative at all.

[Erin O. White]

That's so much. I love the discretion. So Sid is a teenage in the book who finds out very early on in the book that.

She was not conceived with an anonymous sperm donor like she thought she was, but that her mother had had an affair when she was very young. Not an affair outside of her marriage, but before she was married, had conceived Sita at the age of 23 and then had her, and then was estranged from the man she'd had Sita with. The man dies. That's happens in the early part of the book. And then Citade and her family are left to reckon with this secret that it's coming to come into life. It's a huge secret. And of course, I love the way that it works fictionally in my book. And I. And I think that it's interesting how in fiction you sometimes make things much bigger. Right. So that you can sort of make a point about. About an idea. And. And I think, you know, she's a kid who's just dealing with new information in a way that's just really painful. And it's also really beautiful because it's opening up these other new relationships with other people that she didn't know that she. But her parents are left really not knowing what to do because they've made a mistake. And isn't that so much of like, in a lot of ways, that's a lot of parenting teenagers, is you kind of don't always know what to do because oftentimes you have made a mistake. They haven't acted well necessarily. But maybe you have done something you wouldn't do if you had better information, because teenagehood is. I mean, it's the real deal.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

You know, it is just life coming at you fast with a person who's trying to figure out the world, and you're just kind of making it up as you Go along. And it's. And I have. And it's hard. My teenagers are older now, so I am through a lot of that.

[Zibby Owens]

How old are they?

[Erin O. White]

21 and 18. Okay. So, you know, but it is. It is. Every day is not an easy day, but, God, they're just. But also, you know, it's such a. It's a beautiful thing, too. I mean, I just. And that's a lot of what I wanted to capture is, like, you love a teenager in a way that is just really powerful and all of it, you know, their feelings are so big, but your feelings for them are really big, too. And I think we just don't always talk about that a lot. It's like, you know, you have an enormous amount of tenderness and love for them, especially as you come to that ending time of them living in your house.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

And then they're just all over the place figuring out the world. But, God, they're still so beautiful. Right.

[Zibby Owens]

I have twin 18 year olds, so I get it. And younger kids. Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

But, yeah, I mean, twin. So do you have twin 18 year old? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a lot.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah. We need, like, a support group.

Anyway.

[Erin O. White]

I mean, they're just amazing. And I was trying to imbue, sit up with a lot of what I just believe to be an amazing thing about being a teenage girl. It's just, you know.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

They hold a lot of life.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah. Well, you also. I mean, you have so many themes in here, but the female friendship also the like, almost like social competitiveness which you use is like, this Instagram couple is like a foil. And of course, early on you're just like, oh, they're just like normal people. Like, the whole Instagram thing's an act. Everything is an act. Like, not everything is an act. I don't know. But just like always wondering about other people. And that. That is not something that ends necessarily. Necessarily when you're 18. Right. That is.

[Erin O. White]

Right. Right.

[Zibby Owens]

It persists. And like the whole culture of perfectionism and, you know, not knowing what is true and what's not. I love how you sort of poke fun at that.

[Erin O. White]

It is funny how it keeps going. Right. I mean, it's just like. Was it Woody Allen? Who. His name. We don't really say anymore, but Woody Allen, who said that, like, adulthood is just high school with money or something? Like, I think, you know, it really does. And I do. And I do think it also comes to a particular head in your late 30s, early 40s in a lot of ways, when you're still kind of really looking around at what other people have. You're sort of striving, you're wondering what you could still make happen. You're thinking about your life choices, all that kind of early, middle aged stuff. Whereas I feel like now at 50, 52, a lot of that has eased up for me just because of the crucible of these last 10 years where I've seen so many people, everybody experienced their own slew of life difficulties. And you look around and you realize, oh my God, like, all of us are in this together. But at the beginning of middle age, you're still like, I could maybe move this around, you know, I'm still maybe the captain of my own ship, you know, like, and there's a lot of still sort of like jealousy. And that's what I wanted to kind of capture in the book. But from my perspective of being older so that I could give them a lot of generosity and a lot of love. But I could also show them kind of in that sort of tortured, like, maybe I can still change this up way, which is, you know, sometimes a fool's errand.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, true. Erin, take me to here in your life. When did you learn to write? When did you know you were a writer? Like, take me to the writing life. Today's episode has been sponsored by quints. When it comes to holiday gifting, I want to give things people really love. Beautiful, timeless pieces they will wear for years. So that's why I'm going with quince. From Mongolian cashmere sweaters to Italian wool coats, everything is premium quality at a price that actually makes sense. Quince has something for everyone. Soft cashmere sweaters for $50 that look and feel like designer pieces. Silk tops and skirts for dressing up, perfectly cut jeans for everyday wear and outerwear that actually keeps you warm. I've been wearing my new quince coat with this collar on social media, so you should be able to see me wearing it on Instagram. Iveowens. I love it and of course it would make a great gift. The Italian wool coats are also amazing standout pieces. Beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and crafted to last for the seasons. Every piece is made with premium materials from ethical, trusted factories and priced far below what other luxury brands charge. The craftsmanship really shows in every detail. The stitching, the fit, the drape, the it's elevated, timeless and made to wear on repeat. There are just so many options. I can totally see myself giving my friends one of their beautiful options, like a sweater or one of their coats for someone really special and as if that isn't enough, they also have stuff for home, bath, kitchen and travel. Come on, find gifts so good you'll want to keep them yourself with quince. Go to quince.com zibby for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-C-E.com zivi to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn's.com zivi.

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[Erin O. White]

Okay, I. Well, it's, I mean to sort of like I've been a voracious reader since I was 4, 4 or 5 years old. Anything I get my hands on, read and read and read and read. Had a more scientific mind for many years. Worked a bunch of nonprofits in my early 20s, was living in Philadelphia and took. Was taking an LSAT class like through community ed at Penn, like, and then also signed up on a lark for a writing class that was sort of meeting next door. I was like, oh, isn't that funny? James Ron of the Rittenhouse Writers was running it. I was like, I think I'll do that too. And the LSAT class, I took the LSATs. But wow, that was boring.

[Zibby Owens]

Contrary to what you might think about the lsat.

[Erin O. White]

Yes, you might have. I was shocked.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

Because I hadn't really.

[Zibby Owens]

Riveting as they sound. Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

I would not read through the pamphlets all the way. Took the writing class, got pretty interested in it. Thought I would just, just ever shelved that law school thing just for a little while, but then really sort of just got into the writing, got my MFA and just sort of threw myself into it rather kind of foolishly without much of a plan. But then I ended up defending my thesis. Right. Just a couple months before I had my first kid. And so then I just moved into parenting and doing a lot of nonfiction writing, a lot of ghost writing, a lot of editing, various things like that. I wrote a memoir that was published in 20, and then I turned back to fiction and just played around with a whole bunch of things and then started this book, I think in 2021 or something. And then just kind of got to it. And you know how sometimes there is that saying that people say, just like, write the book that you want to read. And I think it was. I had sort of just even given myself just kind of like the permission to just write something super fun. I'm a true lover of domestic novels, domestic fiction. Lori Colin is my. Just my North Star. I love Mary Gordon, Sue Miller. All those old books gave me so much comfort, and I love them so much. And I wanted to write. I really wanted to write a queer domestic novel. I really wanted to create an American domestic scene that was populated by lesbians. And I didn't know if it would work and I didn't know if anyone would want it, but it did, it did work. And I had a ball writing it.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, my gosh, that's amazing. So when you finally finish it. I mean, not finally. Not to imply it took too long or anything like that.

[Erin O. White]

No, no, no.

[Zibby Owens]

It's just what happens with novels. How was the publishing acquisition journey and all that?

[Erin O. White]

So that was very. I mean, extremely lucky and very straightforward for me. So Claudia Ballard took me on as. And was a grand champion of the book. And she's my agent. She did some revision work with me, which was fantastic. And then after a couple of months, she sent it out to some sort of people that she had had in mind for it. And I had a lot of great interest, which was wonderful. And it was. But. And my editor was Whitney Frick at Dial.

[Zibby Owens]

Of course, everything Dial Press does, I like, love. It's, like, getting embarrassing. I like.

[Erin O. White]

Right, Whitney.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you notes. I'm like, I'm serious. I like.

[Erin O. White]

Anyway, I. And it was funny because I had a bunch of, you know, I had a bunch of meetings with wonderful editors and wonderful people. And Whitney is, you know, she's just. She's really one in a million. She's an extraordinary person. And as I said to her, I was like, I will just be happy if I get to write books for you, Whitney, till, you know, the rest of my life. She's a really gifted editor and a really beautiful person.

[Zibby Owens]

So nice.

[Erin O. White]

It's been great.

[Zibby Owens]

Good. I'm so glad. I have to go back now and read your memoir. Tell me about it.

[Erin O. White]

Oh, okay. So my memoir is a real. It's a really different story. So it's called Giving up for your. And it is about how in my early 20s, I was living in Philadelphia and really deep in sort of social justice work in some of the neighborhoods there. I became enthralled with Social justice, Catholicism. And I converted to Catholicism in my early 20s, sort of in the vein of Dorothy Day and Thomas Merton and those sort of big Catholic thinkers. My parents were raised Catholic.

But they didn't raise us Catholic. But I really became compelled by it at the same time. I became compelled by that. I fell in love with the woman who's now my wife. So 27 years later. So the book is about that sort of just, like, real nature mess of sort of spiritual longing, desire for social action, and then this identity that was forming in me, which was just this massive love affair with this woman that I had just met. And so it's a very. Just like, a story of my early 20s and sort of just like the soup that I was kind of, like, growing up in and how that kind of played out over the rest of. Over sort of like the first decade of my adulthood.

It was a lot to write, and I'm glad I did. But I'll never write another word about myself.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, no, really? Why not even, like, essays?

[Erin O. White]

Well, I did actually recently write an essay for the New York Times about why I'm no longer cooking family dinner.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, my God. I read that. I read that.

[Erin O. White]

Oh.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, my gosh. I forgot that was even you. I loved that so much, and I wanted to talk about it, and that is awesome. And, yes, thank you for saying that. You're just like, I'm not doing this anymore.

[Erin O. White]

I'm not doing this anymore. It's great for a very long time.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, it sounded like it. And you sound like a great cook, you know.

[Erin O. White]

Thank you. I am. Yeah. I. You know, it's just as I know, you know, writing about yourself, creating art from personal. From your personal life is really hard. Right. Because in fiction, you. When things aren't working a particular way, you can really move them around you. It's so much more malleable. But when it's your life, you really have to just really dig in and make that meaning and really find the story and find the art. And I found it just really strenuous in a lot of ways. And I found I ended up, to be perfectly frank, revealing more than I would have wanted to. But I was sort of in the process of writing it, and I was compelled by the work so that when I kind of came up for air, I was like, I don't know, like, I love it. Like, I stand by it, but it's also, like, a lot. Do you know what I mean?

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

Yeah. Okay.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, now I even want to read it more, but that's.

Okay. Are you sad to leave these characters? Are you ready to write about new characters? Are these going to characters continue or what are we thinking here?

[Erin O. White]

I'm super sad. I can't return to them just because I feel like I got them to a great place and I just feel like they should just do what they.

[Zibby Owens]

Want on their own.

[Erin O. White]

And so I'm in with another group of people now.

[Zibby Owens]

Nice.

[Erin O. White]

And I don't know them all that well, but I'm having some fun. And it's all sisters. I love a sister story. So as all sisters and a mother and one errant brother over here on this side. So that's what I'm in now.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, just from like a literary device standpoint in this book, I love how you start us out sort of in the freezing cold water and then in a way we end up in freezing cold water in another way sort of later on. And that we are somehow contained in this, you know, space that is at once therapeutic and calming and also terrifying, which is sort of emblematic of life itself, I would say. Was that a device intentionally? Tell me a little bit about sort of using how you use setting and. And devices to make meaning or reflect something. Or maybe I'm just reading into it.

[Erin O. White]

I love that you noticed that. So for me, it's about that there's this pond in the book. For me, it's really about that. The book takes place in a fictional town in upstate New York, but in so many ways the setting belongs to the place where I raised my kids, mostly with my wife, which is western Massachusetts outside of Northampton. And we lived in a really rural area with a bunch of families. And we all really raised our kids together and our lives really revolved around a particular body of water where we spent a lot of time. And I do feel like, because I spent so much time thinking about how that water changed through the seasons, how I would be in it with my kids in the summertime, and then we'd be on it in the winter, and it was the same water and we kept returning to it. I did think about how you can use those elements of the natural world and fiction to really bring your characters kind of back to the same places in different ways with different perspectives. And it's a really fun part of writing is to find those settings that you can really see so clearly in your head and then put. And then sort of get them onto the page in different ways. So for me, it was. Yeah, it really was the water. I mean, it's a couple things. It's the water, it's the pond. And then it's one particular house that one of the couples lives in, which is modeled on a house of one of my dearest friends where my kids really grew up. And it was great to sort of just like be back inside. You know how that is. You're just like back inside a space that meant so much to you. So that was a lot of fun, too. So for me, it's like. Yeah, it's houses, I think, and then it's like those sort of a couple of touchstone natural places. I feel like in our lives we just sort of do return to. Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

Makes me want to, like, write a novel just to go back to some places that I miss, like as a therapeutic exercise or something.

[Erin O. White]

Yeah. I mean, it's. Yeah. And I do think that is.

[Paige Desorbo]

I.

[Erin O. White]

So I was working on this in the pandemic when traveling wasn't super possible or like the tail end. My family had moved to Minneapolis from Massachusetts a few years before, and it really was beautiful and healing for me to go back all the time and just be in these places and to visit with my young children, you know, which is always a joy.

[Zibby Owens]

Do you do any teaching? I feel like you're a really good writing teacher.

[Erin O. White]

Oh, that's sweet. I don't do any teaching. I have in my past, but since I moved to Minneapolis, I don't. I do a lot of one on one editing and coaching.

[Zibby Owens]

I have two newish friends who I've met through just like Instagram and retreats and all of that who live in Minneapolis who are so amazing.

[Erin O. White]

So it's such a great city for writing.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Erin O. White]

They're so nice.

[Zibby Owens]

They're so nice. I did. I came last year. Two years ago, but I'll come back.

[Erin O. White]

Yeah, come back. Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

They were so nice. They like, knitted part of the sweater.

[Erin O. White]

So nice.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah. So nice.

[Erin O. White]

Yeah. It's a great place to live. It's cold.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah. Okay.

[Erin O. White]

Yeah. But it's a great city full of wonderful people. Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

Amazing. Well, Erin, you have a new huge fan in me. I really think. I mean it. You. I love how you write. I loved this book and your story, and I'm just going to be cheering you on as the book comes out and all the rest, so congratulations. Thank you.

[Erin O. White]

It was such a pleasure to talk with you.

[Zibby Owens]

You too. You too. All right, good luck with everything.

[Erin O. White]

Okay. Thank you so much. Take care, Zibby.

[Zibby Owens]

All right, take care. Bye.

[Erin O. White]

Bye.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibeowens and just spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

This holiday season, Capital One reminds you to give yourself the gift of 1.5% cash back with the Capital One Quicksilver Card.

[Erin O. White]

Can I earn 1.5% cash back on birds Birds? What if you sent your true love two turtle doves plus a partridge and a pear tree?

[Zibby Owens]

Sure, but why would anyone want that? The song was very convincing. Earn 1.5% cash back on all your holiday purchases with the Capital One Quicksilver Card.

[Erin O. White]

What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com for details.

[Paige Desorbo]

Hi, it's Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. You ever stand in front of your closet and just say I have nothing to wear while you're literally surrounded by clothes? Because same so I started listing pieces. I'm over on Depop and honestly, it's been amazing. You can sell what you're done with and someone out there will love it. And the best part about it is there's no seller fee, so the money you make actually stays in your pocket, which feels very chic. It's also insanely easy. I listed something while watching TV and it sold before the episode even ended. So download the Depop app and list your first item today because your old outfit could be someone else's new favorite. Depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees, boosting fees still apply. For more info, visit depop.com Dear Career.

[Erin O. White]

Ladder, you've had your moment. You're linear and one dimensional. Ambition doesn't just go up anymore. It zigs and zags and squiggles. We're CEOs, executives, founders. We're advising companies, launching side hustles, taking breaks, defining our next act ambition on our terms. The possibilities are endless. Chief Lead on. Join [e-mail].