How Systems and Customs in Israel Create Unity with Dan Senor

Summary

Podcast Summary: Totally Booked with Zibby

Episode: How Systems and Customs in Israel Create Unity with Dan Senor
Host: Zibby Owens
Guest: Dan Senor
Date: February 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this live episode, Zibby Owens sits down with Dan Senor, co-author of The Genius of Israel: The Surprising Resilience of a Divided Nation in a Turbulent Time, to discuss the societal systems and enduring customs that foster unity in Israel. They delve into what makes Israeli society unique, especially in the face of deep divisions and crises. Senor argues that Israel’s social fabric offers lessons for Western societies struggling with polarization, loneliness, and declining social cohesion. The conversation weaves in personal stories, comparative analysis, and reflections on the meaning of service, ritual, and national identity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Context and Genesis of the Book

• Release and Timing:
  The Genius of Israel was published shortly after October 7, 2023, a pivotal moment for Israel due to the Hamas attacks. The book, however, was completed before these events, focusing originally on Israeli society during the judicial reform struggle.
  ⏰ [07:41–08:30]
• Motivation for Writing:
  Dan Senor and co-author Saul Singer sought to understand why Western societies are facing a crisis of polarization and isolation, while Israel appears to defy these trends with high social cohesion and resilience—even amid deep political divides. ⏰ [09:27–10:50]

2. Comparative Societal Metrics: Israel vs. the West

• Loneliness and Social Networks:
  Senor identifies an epidemic of loneliness and “deaths of despair” in the West, attributed to weak communal bonds. In contrast, Israelis enjoy strong networks of close confidants, suggesting a more robust communal fabric.
  ⏰ [09:50–12:00]
• Fertility and Population Trends:
  While most developed countries’ fertility rates are well below replacement level (ex: South Korea 0.7, U.S. 1.6), Israel’s is 2.8, signaling social optimism and cohesion.
  ⏰ [11:10–12:30]
• Happiness Rankings:
  Despite ongoing conflict and the threat of war, Israel consistently ranks among the top 10 happiest countries globally, which Senor attributes to collective resilience and purpose.
  ⏰ [13:35–14:30]
• Notable Quote:

  “We open the book with a story... She wound up writing a piece for the Daily Beast called ‘Why Are Israelis So Damn Happy?’ because… she found it perplexing. Here are these people who live in the middle of a war zone… and yet there was this—almost every single Israeli… they’re so upbeat and optimistic.”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [13:22–14:10]

3. The Role of Military Service in Social Unity

• Service as a Leveler:
  Military service is a rite of passage for nearly every Israeli. Unlike the U.S., where college prestige is a primary status marker, in Israel, the key question is “Where did you serve?”
  ⏰ [16:26–17:02]

  “In America, it’s like, ‘Where did you go to school?’… But in Israel, it’s like, ‘Where did you serve? What did you do?’ And so it’s a recalibration of what matters to a society.”
  —Zibby Owens ⏰ [16:26]

• Maturity and Unity Through Service:
  Israeli youth develop early responsibility, leadership, and bonds that cross social, economic, and political lines.

  “They are going to be trained not only life and death survival skills, but life and death leadership. They’re going to learn what it means to lead people, what it means to have lives on the line, what it means to console people…”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [22:23–23:06]

• Meritocracy in Service:
  Unlike many societies, Israel's system evaluates young people for service units solely on merit, not background or connections, fostering societal trust and breaking down class divisions.
  ⏰ [24:43–26:10]
• Ongoing Connections through Reserve Duty:
  Long-term military reserves ensure individuals mix with diverse peers throughout their lives, preventing persistent societal silos.

  “You would see… in the hull of a tank, the son of a taxi driver and the son of a tech billionaire… all forged together in service of the country.”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [26:01–27:01]

4. National Rituals and Customs: Building Social Fabric

• Weekly and Annual Shared Experiences:
  Israel’s high-participation rituals (like weekly Shabbat dinners, Memorial Day leading directly into Independence Day) reinforce community and national memory.

  “We have a chapter in the book called Thanksgiving Every Week… every single Friday night… the country shuts down.”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [31:05–32:40]

• Contrast to U.S. Rituals:
  Senor notes that, aside from Thanksgiving and arguably the Super Bowl, U.S. national rituals lack universal participation or seriousness compared to Israeli customs.

  “In Israel, they do Memorial Day and Independence Day back to back… because they tie the two together. We don’t get the independence without the sacrifice.”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [30:52–31:25]

• Importance of Rituals for Cohesion:

  “There’s something about that holding the society together that I think we need to get more serious about.”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [34:10]

5. Balancing Individualism and Collectivism

• A Unique Social Model:
  Drawing on historian Paul Johnson and Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, Senor argues Israel (and the Jewish people more broadly) uniquely blend pursuit of excellence with a collective mindset—balancing “me” with “we.”

  “The Jewish people, and therefore in its modern incarnation, the state of Israel… [strike] a real balance… not at the expense of a community mindset.”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [35:05–36:20]

• Application to Crisis Response:
  The willingness of Israelis—regardless of politics—to show up during national crises is cited as proof of this unity.

  “On the morning of October 7, Israelis… were showing up at their bases. Israelis who had aged out of military service… said, ‘No, I’m going anyways.’”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [37:06–37:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Dan Senor on Podcasting:

  “It’s just having an intimate conversation and you forget that there’s a room full of people… I get lost in my conversations.”
  ⏰ [06:35]

• Dan Senor on Resilience:

  “Israel was that model... Israel on every one of these metrics… No loneliness epidemic. Fertility rate’s high. It's one of the happiest places on Earth.”
  ⏰ [12:13–14:30]

• On Service Creating Bonds:

  “So it’s not that Israel doesn’t have its own status system… but the status is all about how you're serving your country. And that tells you what a society rewards and values.”
  ⏰ [24:43–25:45]

• On the Power of National Rituals:

  “Thanksgiving, we’ve got the Super Bowl, and that’s basically it… In Israel, they have one every single week.”
  —Dan Senor ⏰ [33:21–34:10]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [07:41–16:26]: Introduction to the book, societal metrics, and Israeli happiness
• [16:26–24:43]: Role of military service as a societal leveler
• [24:43–29:54]: Meritocracy and unity within the Israeli military
• [30:24–34:10]: Discussion of national rituals in Israel vs. U.S.
• [34:10–38:05]: Balancing individual and communal excellence, lessons for Western societies, and response to crises

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Conclusion

Senor and Owens conclude that Israel’s surprising social health isn’t accidental but the result of intentional structures: shared service, deep-rooted rituals, and a societal ethos that balances individual ambition with communal obligation. For Western societies facing fragmentation and alienation, the Israeli model offers both inspiration and practical lessons.

“If you ask yourself, why is it on the morning of October 7, Israelis… were showing up at their bases… it does come in part with all of them realizing they’re part of something larger than themselves.”
—Dan Senor ⏰ [37:06–37:35]

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Recommended For:
Listeners interested in social science, Jewish/Israeli culture, and anyone seeking practical strategies for building more unified, resilient communities—on a national or organizational level.

Transcript

[Zibby Owens]

Hey, everyone, it's Zivi. I am so excited to tell you about something I've created just for you, the zip membership program. Zip stands for Zivi's Important People. It's for anyone who loves books, stories, and wants a little peek behind the scenes at what I'm up to and what's on my mind as a Zip member. You'll get exclusive essays, a new podcast called Zivvy's Voice Notes. No interviews, just usually discounts at Zibby's Bookshop, a free ebook, and more perks. I wanted to create a space to connect authentically and deeply, and I'd love for you to be part of it. If that sounds like your kind of thing, become a zip today. You're already important to me. Now let's make it official. Go to zibioens.com and click subscribe. And if you already subscribe, you can upgrade to the membership program. And now onto today's episode of Totally Booked with Zibvie. Thanks for listening.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

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[Zibby Owens]

Was January supposed to be your big fresh start? Well, sometimes the pressure to fix everything at once just can leave you feeling stuck. Growtherapy makes it easier to reset at your own pace. With therapy that's covered by insurance and built around your life, you can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growththerapy.com acast to get started. That's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Hi, I'm Debbie Millman and I host a podcast called Design Matters from the TED Audio Collective. Every episode I have conversations with designers, writers, artists and other luminaries of contemporary thought. People like Roman Mars, AI Weiwei E. Ethan Hawke, and Ashley Ford. We not only talk about their crafts, but how they design the arc of their lives, what they've learned, what obstacles they've overcome, and how they've done it, and how they see the world. Join us for an inquiry into the broader world of creative culture. Find and follow Design Matters with Debbie Millman wherever you're listening to this. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books in my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram Ibbeowens it was such a thrill for me to interview Dan Sinore at the Totally Booked Live event at the Witchy last month. I had seen him before, which I think we talk about in the episode at the unpacked event that they did at the 92nd Street Y. And I was just so impressed with him and of course watch him on Social and see all the great things that he does. So it was a true honor to interview him. Plus, I just learned so much from his book the Genius of the Surprising Resilience of a Divided Nation in a Turbulent Time. It is so important to read. It's not just it's not like a history of Israel. It's more how a country and or a company even can create a culture in which community and collaboration thrive. And it's just completely fascinating. Dan is in addition to being co Author of that book. He's co author of the New York Times bestseller Startup Nation, the Story of Israel's Economic Miracle, which has been translated into 30 languages. He was a senior advisor to former Speaker Paul Ryan's campaign for Vice president, foreign policy advisor to Senator Mitt Romney's presidential campaigns. A former Defense Department official, Dan was actually based in Iraq and at US Central Command in Qatar in 2003 and 2004 as chief spokesperson for the US led coalition. He has written for the Financial Times, the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and many others. And he may be most known for being the host of the podcast Call Me Back. He appears frequently on CNN's Fareed Zakaria GPS, CNNBC's squawk box, and CBS Mornings. Dan was educated at the University of Western Ontario, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and Harvard Business School, and is currently a partner at an investment management firm. He lives in New York City with his wife and two sons. I really hope you enjoy our conversation. Welcome to Totally Booked Live. I'm so excited to be here with Dan Senor today, the author of the Genius of the Surprising Resilience of a Divided Nation and a Turbulent World. Welcome.

[Dan Senor]

Great to be with you. Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

I'm a little, you know, you're such a big deal podcaster yourself, you know.

[Dan Senor]

You know what I've learned about podcasting? It's just having a conversation.

[Zibby Owens]

I know.

[Dan Senor]

It's just. That's what's great about it. It's like it's having an intimate conversation and you forget that there's a room full of people or, you know, a big audience of people out there. And I like, when I'm doing podcasts, I forget that that's the case. So I like get lost in my conversations and then people stop me, like in airports and like, reference a conversation. I think that was just a conversation I was having with Zibby. I didn't realize I was having that conversation with like all of you listening to people. Here we are at gate 7C at.

[Zibby Owens]

Newark Airport or making everybody professional eavesdroppers.

[Dan Senor]

Right.

[Zibby Owens]

Basically, this whole medium. That's what's happened. Well, I was telling everybody here before you got here how much I loved your book. Thank you. Not that I didn't think I would love it, but I did think it would be more of like a history type, nonfictiony voice book, but actually it felt much more to me like a social science book with so many vignettes and everything told from a personal story perspective, which of course jives with the importance of story In Israel, tell everybody about the book, how you wrote it in this very accessible way and why you wrote it.

[Dan Senor]

Yeah, we wrote the book. So I think it's important just to set up the timing of it because the timing of it is both is actually coincidental but relevant. So the book was released, was published on November 7, 2023. So a month, our pub date was November 7, 2023. And as you know from your own writing and your own immersion in the book world, the lead time in terms of when you have to submit a book to a manuscript, to the publisher and when the book is actually released, is published is months and months and months in advance, which is a long winded way of saying when. When we wrote the book, we never imagined the context in which the book would be released. Right. We did not realize the book was going to be released the month after October 7th. So we have an author's note and I'm going to get into the substance of the book, but we have an author's note at the front of the book that actually tries to explain what's happening in Israel purely through the lens of the judicial reform fight, which many of you may remember. That's like ancient history now. But Israel was in the throes of this big judicial reform fight in basically all of 2023. And we tried to. We just assumed that was the. That's where the book would be received is like in that context. Now why did we write an author's note about judicial reform? Because the judicial reform fight in Israel, to many outsiders revealed the country as a Israeli society is very divisive and very polarized. And it seemed odd. It would seem odd to us. It would be understandable that it would seem odd, let's say, to readers to think why are they writing a book about Israeli resilience? And what we really write about, which is Israeli unity and the health of and the strength of Israeli society at a time that they seem to be tearing themselves apart. But again, we didn't anticipate that judicial reform would be totally irrelevant. And the real context in which it would arrive is the post October 7th world. So we wrote the book not thinking about Obviously the post October 7th world. The Judicial reform stuff fight was in the background. But what we were really writing a book about was what the west could learn from the health and strength of Israeli society. And I just set it up by providing some examples or metrics that we use to define that and what we had found. My co author, Saul Singer and I, Saul lives in Jerusalem. What we had been observing over basically the decade before we wrote the book. We were just. There was the story. One of the central stories of our time in the west was how American society, Western societies were becoming more divided, more polarized. Increasingly, people were feeling lonely and isolated. And that was having a real detrimental effect on American society and British society and Canadian society. And there were like. I mean, I don't wanna get too technical here, but there were connections between that phenomenon and what we call deaths of despair, which is a academic term that was coined by some social scientists, some economists, some real public health experts, about the staggering rise in the west of deaths from drug overdose, alcohol abuse and suicide. So you had this loneliness epidemic. You had staggering numbers. I mean, it eclipses what we went through with COVID I mean, it was interesting that Covid became such a dominant story for understandable reasons. But the real public health crisis in terms of sustained mortality in the United States was these deaths of despair. And just metric after metric. Oh, and sorry, I forgot. I think what is the most revealing statistic is the fertility rate. So replacement rate is the. Again, not to get too technical, but the replacement rate is the rate at which a society has to be reproducing in order to either maintain the current population size or actually increase it. And the average replacement rate is 2.1. That's the reference point if, on average, women are having 2.1 children. So the academic literature dictates as long as you're at 2.1 or above 2.1, you don't have a demography crisis because the population of your country will remain the same or continue to grow. The. And what we were observing over the previous decade was that fertility rates were crashing around the world, not just in the west, also in the east, well below replacement rates. So just to give you a current sense, 2025, the fertility rate in South Korea is 0.7. The fertility rate in Canada is 1.3. The fertility rate in much of Europe is either slightly below 1.3 or slightly above 1.3. The fertility rate in the United States, 1.6. So by the way, China's numbers are way lower. So what you're seeing around the world is a demographic collapse. Populations as we know it around the world are going to be shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and shrinking. And so you just add all these and I can keep going. You add all. A loneliness epidemic, deaths of despair at a staggering rate, intense polarization, people not reproducing and societies shrinking. It just felt to us like a societal nightmare. And policymakers and social scientists would touch on these issues, but they'd never kind of try to sync them all together and understand what's going on. And more importantly, there didn't seem to be a model of, okay, so if there's a society that worked that we could learn from, what would that place be? And what Saul and I increasingly found was Israel was that model. Like that Israel on every one of these metrics. And I can go metric by metric, right? So Israel. How many people have spent time in Israel? Just raise your hand. Okay, so if you spent time in Israel, one thing, you know, they don't experience is a loneliness epidemic, right? They are like, you know, Israelis are in your life, for better or for worse, every aspect of your life. And we have actually some extraordinary data that shows. That we cite in the book that shows just even people's circles of friends, they have, like, people who they consider close confidants, close friends, close advisors. On average, people have much larger circles of deep contacts with friends, not just family, than those in the US do the fertility rate. So I cited, you know, 0.7 in Korea, 1.6 in the US somewhere between those in most of Europe and Canada. In Israel, it's 2.8. I think most recently, it's 2.8. So well above the replacement rate. So Israel's population is growing. It's also a very young population. Then we start studying other metrics, like, there's no loneliness crisis in Israel. And I can go through it. There are virtually no deaths of despair. So something was going on in Israel. And I should also mention, which is. People find really surprising is according to the international rankings, Israel is one of the happiest places on Earth. In fact, we open the book with a story of someone who's not Jewish, who was living in San Francisco, who's getting a massage. Yeah, yeah, she's. Yeah, you really. Wow. Okay. He got the details. She meets an Israeli guy, moves to Israel with him, is getting her master's at Tel Aviv University. He works in tech. She goes back with him, and she's never spent time in Israel. And, like, she keeps finding over and over and over how upbeat and optimistic Israelis are. And she wound up writing a piece for the Daily Beast called why Are Israelis so Damn Happy? Because she was like. She was just. She found it perplexing. Here are these people who live in the middle of a war zone. The country's been at war for most of its history. It's in this constant sense feeling of isolation geopolitically, not societally. And yet there was this. And almost every single Israeli, if they have a child, knows that their child is likely gonna have to serve in the army and as we've seen, even serve in real serious combat situations. How are these people so upbeat and optimistic? So, and this is just. This is a UN like this. UN sponsors this report this, like, rankings. Probably the nicest thing the UN has ever said about Israel, but Israel's consistently in the top 10 on these rankings of the happiest countries in the world. And when you look at Israel's ranking and you look at the other countries in the top 10, let's just say none of them look like Israel. So it really is perplexing. And so we thought, let's write a book about Israel as the model of a healthy society and trying to understand why it's so vibrant and so healthy and so dynamic, and it's working contra to all these trends we're seeing elsewhere in the world. And then see if the west can learn from the Israeli experience in terms of seeing what you may want to copy and cultivate here.

[Zibby Owens]

Unfortunately, it feels like we're not going to copy any of these things. However, it's so interesting to hear you lay them all out. I mean, you referenced the military. It's not just that all Israelis serve in the military. It's the bonds that they form because of doing that. And you interestingly said, you know, in America, it's like, where did you go to school? Like, your education is a. A leveler. But in Israel, it's like, where did you serve? What did you do? And so it's a recalibration of what matters to a society. Today's episode is sponsored by Quince. Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. Designed for layering and mixing, each piece helps build a timeless wardrobe made to last with versatile silhouettes and thoughtful details. They're the kind of styles you wear again and again. I have not taken off my quince parka this entire winter season. There's been a huge snowstorm lately. I wore it in and out of the snow every day. I mean, I just wear it every day. It's amazing. Quince has wardrobe staples with quality that is made to last. Like 100% organic cotton sweaters, premium denim with stretch for all day comfort luxe cotton cashmere which blends perfectly for changing seasons. And basically everything you need for a wardrobe that last. Quince works directly with safe, ethical factories and cuts out the middle mint. So you're not paying for brand markup, just high quality clothing. Quince uses the highest quality materials like 100% European linen and organic cotton. Speaking of which, my podcast producer Chelsea, who is undoubtedly listening, got a new comforter off of Quince, which she also loves. We are both Quince fans, so refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com zibby for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com zivi to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com zivvy Today's episode is sponsored by Wayfair. The new year is here and it is time to get back into an at home routine you love and elevate your space with Wayfair. From bedding and mattresses to storage solutions for every room in your house, Wayfair is your one stop shop. I actually have used Wayfair so much because over the holidays I stayed with my mother in Arizona and told her it was definitely time to redo the guest room where she has my kids stay because she hasn't touched it. In Dec it needed a refresh and I said you know what Wayfair? So we got beds, lamps, side tables. We've been doing the whole room. It looks amazing. Everything came within a few days in perfect shape. It has been so fun. Wayfair has everything like the most enormous selection of home decor items and exactly what we wanted for the space we had. And it's still a work in progress and I will share some pictures on Instagram. We're obsessed so you should get organized, refreshed and and back on track this new year as well. For way less, head to Wayfarer.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Hi. Who here loves when their nails are perfectly done? Me. I'm Sarah Gibson Tuttle and I started Olive in June because let's be real, we all deserve to have gorgeous nails. But who wants to spend a fortune or half their day at the salon? And that's why I created the Mani system. So you can have that salon perfect manicure right at home. And guess what? The best part? Each mani only costs $2. Yup, you heard me. $2. No more 30, 40, $50 salon trips that eat up your day. Now you can paint your nails whenever you want, wherever you want and trust me, you're going to be obsessed with your nails and everyone is Going to ask you, where did you get your nails done? And here's a little something extra. Head over to oliveandjune.com and get 20% off your first mani system with code [e-mail] that's code perfectmanny20 for 20% [e-mail] perfectmanny20. You're all set for a nail glow up. Let's get those nails looking fabulous, shall we?

[Dan Senor]

Yeah, I think that's a really important insight that status and sure. Does Israel have a booming high tech scene? Yes. We wrote a whole book about it, our first book in Startup Nation. We talk a little. We have a chapter in it in this book. Just sort of updating on where it stands. So Israel, to be clear, is a booming tech sector. It has a lot of ambitious people who are making a lot of money, who are building amazing companies. But that's not the status symbol in Israel. Your status and your stature comes largely from how you publicly serve. And the military is primarily the way to do it, which is national service. And that is to say that almost every single male in the country does three years plus of military service mandatory unless they go on and serve in one of the elite units or they do officer go to officer training school. And women serve a minimum of two years. And a few things happen in that experience. One, that experience taking an 18 or nine, they do it at graduating high school. So I have a son right now who is going through the hellish process of applying to colleges.

[Zibby Owens]

My kids just got in early. Oh, not to brag.

[Dan Senor]

Yours did.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, muzzle hurt.

[Dan Senor]

Well, my son got him to one school early so far, but he's not. Was it early decision or ea.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, I mean, they're binding. They're gone.

[Dan Senor]

Oh, yours is binding. Okay, good.

[Zibby Owens]

We can talk offline.

[Dan Senor]

Mazel tov.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you very much. I was just saying it's the most of everything I've posted in the last like eight years on Instagram and all the work I do and everything. It was my post where I said my kids got into college. That has more views than anything else.

[Dan Senor]

I'll tell you over the holidays. So our kids, both our kids and now just one of our kids go to a Jewish day school and there are a lot of Israeli kids there in the school. So a lot of Israeli families that come to the US for whatever reason for their parents, work or whatever for here for years, a big part of the student population at the school are these Israeli kids. So our kids are growing up with these Israeli kids. And over the holidays, a few of them came to stay with us, came away with us, and listening to the conversations between the American kids who were having these insane conversations about the college application process and the Israeli kids who are trying to figure out what army unit they're going to serve in. It's like I've watched these kids grow up together and they've all kind of been on a similar track and now their tracks are about to completely diverge, right? They've basically been doing the same thing for the last, as long as I've known these kids. These kids have grown up around our, like at our home. Like I see like the Israeli kids. And now our kids are about to go into this college process which we can spend a whole, we can do a whole podcast on that. And these Israeli kids are about to get a crucible leadership experience, right? They are going to be trained not only life and death survival skills, but life and death leadership. They're going to learn what it means to lead people, what it means to have lives on the line, what it means to motivate people, what it means to console people, what it means to be responsible for very, you know, massive amounts of equipment and sophisticated technologies and weapons and defense capabilities. I mean, these are kids, 18, 19, 20, 21, that are developing these experiences.

[Zibby Owens]

And the American kids are doing beer pong.

[Dan Senor]

Exactly. Beer pong. And rushing. Yeah, rushing fraternities and sororities. And so the. So I think a, they just mature. The development, like the sense of responsibility that they have to take on is mind blowing. And two, to your point, what unit you get into. So, like right now, after this conversation, Zibby and I are gonna have a conversation. So what school, you know, we're gonna do this and we're immediately gonna start sizing. Like I'm making judgments about her kids without even having met her kids, just based on what she says.

[Zibby Owens]

They're really great kids.

[Dan Senor]

I believe it.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

But.

[Zibby Owens]

I believe it.

[Dan Senor]

I believe it. Okay, and then. But in Israel, it's all about what unit you get into, right? Are you in the intelligence unit, one of the intelligence units? Are you in 8200 Shmona Matayam, which is the equivalent of like our NSA, our National Security Agency, which is a tech focused intelligence unit, except they let 18, 19 and 20 year olds in it. Are you in Sayeret Matkal, which is like their equivalent of our Delta Force, which is a very important combat unit. Are you in? I mean, and what unit you wind up in tells you a lot about the kid. And so that, but, so it's not that Israel doesn't have its own status system. It does, but the status is all about how you're serving your country. And that tells you what a society rewards and values that sure, there are some people technically that are higher status or lower status just based on the unit they serve, but it's all about the service. It's all about what you're giving of yourself to society. And I think that sends a very important message to, to young people. It's not all about me, me, me, me, me. It's about I'm measured by how I am serving. And I think the most important part of the experience, and I saw this, this really was crystallized for me after October 7th. We wrote about it, but I didn't fully appreciate it until after October 7, is because it is a very clinical process in terms of how they, you know, what units people get into and where they serve. It is not based on where you went to school. It's not based on who your family is. It's not based on, you know, what kind of, you know, economic resources you have, or academic support you have, or it's purely, it really is purely based on merit. Now obviously it's purely based on merit because you don't want anyone in one of these frontline life and death situations defending the country and then learn later that they were in that position because like there was somehow some corner cutting. And so therefore what it means is in these units you have people from all walks of life. So you would see this, Those images after October 7, when the IDF was getting organized to get ready to fight. You would see these incredible images flying across social media where you'd see, in the hull of a tank, the son of a taxi driver and the son of a tech billionaire and the son of a Orthodox Jew from a very religiously Zionist part of a community or a settlement you have. I mean, it's just really these people from all walks of life who are forged together in service of the country and in defense of the country. And therefore, as divided as Israel is politically, and it is divided, and it's going to get more divided because we're headed into an election year here in Israel. But at its core, it's still has what I call these societal shock absorbers, which is as divided as it gets. It can only get so divided because Israelis, by and large don't think of one another as the other because they've been in the hull of a tank, they've been in a base together They've been like, I have this friend, we quote this public intellectual named Micah Goodman in the book quite a lot. And I remember we didn't quote this in the book, but I remember once going on a hike with him in Israel many years ago, soon after Trump got elected in 2016. And he's an academic and he was speaking at Harvard, at a conference in Harvard. He came in from Israel and he was speaking in Harvard and he said, he said, you know, I'm at this conference in Harvard and it's like December of 2016 or January of 2017. And some of these academics he's meeting with are saying, you know, I met a Trump voter. You know, I like, I met a Trump voter. And let me tell you what I learned from that Trump voter. And let me tell you what they're like, as though it was like a lab experiment, you know, that this was some. And this is not a debate about Trump or his supporters. It's simply to make a point. I'm simply trying to. He was so shocked by this because he's like, again, it's not about the issues. It was that these academics he was with at Harvard actually don't interact with people who don't vote like them. That there is this sense of the other. And he said that, like in his unit, he's, I would say, pretty centrist, maybe center left here. He's going to be annoyed when he listens to this. I'm characterizing his politics, but he says in his unit. So he served in this unit in the army and then that unit, these are bonds because of reserve duty, you have to serve. You not only do your three years or whatever it is, but then this is before October 7th, but then you go back in reserve duty, what they call miluim, every year for it could be up to two weeks or up to a month. And you're back with your unit. So you're back with the people you served with every year. So you reunite with these people from all walks of life. And it's like. And you have it for basically the next 20 years. Now this has changed post October 7, because now they have to serve even longer. The point is, he says he gets together with his unit every year and he says some of these people think he's a crazy leftist and he thinks some of the people in his unit are crazy right wing people, but he would never think of. But they're all Israelis. They're all like fellow citizens and they have this bond. So I think the public service and the military does something else, too, is as divided as Israelis get. They can never get too far apart.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, I think what the book does such a great job of is not just spelling out why it has worked in Israel, but almost from an organizational standpoint, how we can take the principles of building something common, mission, even your education examples, the way you teach, and having everybody interact, you just take us through so methodically. So it's not just a country. It's really anybody who reads this book and wants the lessons of effective building of an entity that can be successful.

[Dan Senor]

Right. I think a couple of points that really work and I do think are transferable over here. And again, I don't want to get into how to make it transferable here, but just some things that I think are very compelling. One, the sense of national ritual. Yes, there is a sense in Israel that there are real rituals that the overwhelming majority of the country participates in. Now, when I say that here to audiences in the U.S. i say, like, just think about what kind of national rituals there are where you and virtually everybody, you know, you are honoring the ritual and that virtually everyone, you know, no matter what walk of life they're in, are also honoring the ritual at the same time. So if I think of national rituals where I feel like the country, the United States has huge buy in, I actually can think of two. Does anyone know what the first one is? Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, not Fourth of July. You said Fourth of July, so I. Someone said Fourth of July. People often say Fourth of July. The problem is Fourth of July is. I mean, it should be a national ritual. And it is for some, but for many people, it's just a long weekend. It's a weekend at the beach. It's, you know, fireworks and barbecue and all that's nice, but there's no real sense that, like, oh, we're honoring the country's independence and we're really thinking about the country's independence. So to give you a sense, in Israel, they're in, they do Memorial Day and Independence Day back to back. So Memorial Day is on one day and every year, and then. And then their Independence Day is literally the next day. So it's the two days back to back because they tie the two together. We don't get the independence without the sacrifice. And the whole country participates in this very somber Memorial Day. When Israelis see our Memorial Day, they're like, what's a Memorial Day sale? They're like, really perplexed that there's something called a Memorial Day sale. Because for them, this is a very serious somber Experience. And so they go through Memorial Day, and then they go into Independence Day, and it's a very joyful day day. And the whole country participates. A very serious. But even just look at other dates on the Jew. On the Hebrew calendar, Shabbat. So we have a chapter in the book called Thanksgiving. Every week, right? Which is every single Friday night, basically, the country shuts down, and the overwhelming majority of Israelis are either with their family or with family and friends. If they're with family, they're usually two, three, four generations. Like, the whole family comes together or just friends, you know, people in their community. But the point is. And some are more religious and some are more secular, and some, you know, but the idea of gathering with the people closest to you every single week. Slow down, unplug. They're not on their devices. They're with each other. They're with human beings. Imagine that. Human interaction. And this is like a ritual in the country. We cite some studies that show over 70, 80% of Israelis participate in that ritual. Again, we said Thanksgiving here.

[Zibby Owens]

One, I was gonna ask. I was like, wait, what's the other one?

[Dan Senor]

Super Bowl.

[Zibby Owens]

I was gonna say that Super Bowl.

[Dan Senor]

So the Super Bowl. Now, some people here are like, yeah, I know, but here's why. The Super Bowl. The super bowl because. And I'm a huge fan.

[Zibby Owens]

Because of the ads.

[Dan Senor]

No, and it's also. There are fewer and fewer kind of monoculture events in the United States where. Events where there's something in the culture that everyone's talking about. There's just. There are fewer and fewer of those. The super bowl is one of those things. Whereas Monday morning people are at the office or people dropping kids off at school, and it's like all they're talking about is out of the game or the ads. But it is a sense of ritual. I mean, it sounds kind of silly, and it's very commercial, but it is. I mean, I don't want to take it away from us because we don't have many, right? We got Thanksgiving, we've got the super bowl, and that's basically it. And in Israel, they have one every single week. And there are others with other holidays and other civic events.

[Zibby Owens]

But.

[Dan Senor]

But there's something about that holding the society together that I think we need to get more serious about. I'm not saying we in the west or in the United States should be so ambitious to think about doing something about it every week. But if we could get more serious about Memorial Day and July 4th. There are military families, a lot of them, for Them Memorial Day is going to Arlington cemetery in Washington D.C. like that, it's real for them. But that represents a minuscule percentage of our population. Why aren't the rest of us in some way also participating in that ritual? So I think there are lessons we can take and each of those experiences is a reminder to us in the next generation of what's important to us. The sense of what I think Israel does very well is, as I said earlier, it's a very. Individuals there are ambitious. They want to achieve great success, they want to create wealth for themselves. Again, I take none of that away from them. So they're, they're focused on the pursuit of individual excellence, but there's also this communal mindset. They like strike a balance between the two. Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, a former chief rabbi of the uk, passed away a number of years ago. He was once interviewed, we quote him in the book he was once interviewing. Paul Johnson also passed away, the famous British historian who had written all these books. He'd written a book about the history of the American people, the history of the English people, the history of Christianity, and a history of the Jews. He's not Jewish, totally secular, and he would approach all these issues from some distance and so from an analytical perspective. And he wrote this history of the Jews, which is phenomenal. It really is a, it's a, it's a. And he looks at, like at that point, you know, the Jewish people's 4,000 year history. And so Sacks is interviewing, Rabbi Sacks is interviewing Paul Johnson at some event in the uk and he says, Sack says to him, to Johnson, he says, okay, so you've written the history of the American people, history of the Christianity, history of the English people. So of all these peoples, what stands out about the history of the Jewish people? If you had to pick one thing, what is the most distinctive? And he said, in every other of these societies I have studied, most of these studies are either highly individual societies or are they highly individualistic or highly collectivist. So generally speaking, Western societies are more individualistic. And Eastern societies, again, for simplicity's sake, Eastern societies, he says, gravitate more towards collectivism. He says the Jewish people, and therefore in its modern incarnation, the state of Israel, the Jewish state, is the only society that strikes a balance, a real balance between the two, which is, yes, there's this commitment to individual excellence and pursuit of individual excellence, but not at the expense of a community mindset in the sense that people are part of something larger than themselves. And I think that balance is very, very healthy for people. In a world in which we're all me, me, me, me, me, me. To have, like, markers all around you in society that is reminding you that you are part of something larger than yourself. And I think that is one of the most important things Israel does. If you ask yourself, why is it on the morning of October 7, Israelis, whether they were called up for reserve duty or not, were showing up at their bases. Israelis who had aged out of military service and were said, no, I'm going anyways. And they're putting on the uniform. And the heads of the units were like, sending them away, and they're like, nope, I'm going. I'm going. Massive numbers of Israelis turned out. Israelis who days before were at each other's throats over political debate. As I said, the judicial reform, where does that come from? It does come in part with all of them realizing they're part of something larger than themselves. And so that, to me, is the ultimate check on a society that's so focused on me or a society that is so resentful of the other.

[Zibby Owens]

Amazing. Dan. We've only scratched the surface. Thank you so much for coming on.

[Dan Senor]

Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for your time.

[Dan Senor]

Thanks for having me.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for listening to Totally booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books. Picture this. Me, Reese Witherspoon in London ordering fish and chips so often they might start.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Wrapping me in paper.

[Zibby Owens]

I'm traveling with my Wells Fargo autograph journey card, so I earn rewards wherever I book. Travel five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel and one point on other purchases. Imagine getting rewarded for eating a toad in the hole. Wait, what is a toad in the hole?

[Dan Senor]

Visit Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

[Zibby Owens]

La Brega is back. This season, we're spending time with the people and symbols that represent Puerto Rico.

[Dan Senor]

We're proud boricuas. And what does that mean?

[Zibby Owens]

And we are still in this fight. We're telling stories about champions from a place worth fighting for. Stories that will inspire you no matter where you're from. Wow. This is La Brega Campeones. Listen early and ad free with Fubudo.

[Dan Senor]

Plus Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.