A (2:46)

We'll all watch it together, check it out.

B (2:48)

Regretting you.

A (2:52)

Welcome and thanks for coming to Totally Booked Live. We're here today at the Whitby Hotel and have a fabulous episode in store with Jane Hamilton who is the author of the Phoebe Variations which she wrote and actually we published at Zibby Publishing. So congratulations.

C (3:09)

Thank you Zibby. Thank you for having me at your company. And on this day.

A (3:14)

Yeah, it's like a double invite. You're like super, super invited. Jane is a two time Oprah's Book club pick for her previous books. FYI, if you all didn't know that and now you've come back after a break with a new book, why come back at all? Why this book? Why now?

C (3:34)

Oh boy. Why come back at all? That is such a good question. Well, I didn't really take a break. I just worked on the book on and off for about nine years and I, I couldn't get it to work. Those of you who are writers in the audience know that that sometimes happens. I had the initial trouble with Phoebe having a. Our heroine having an experience with her birth family which destabilizes her. And then she runs away from her mother and hides out in a house of 14 children in a Oak Park, Illinois ish place in the 1970s. And then I couldn't find her trajectory. There was one iteration of the book where she lives in New York City and is the assistant to a couple, a comedy duo, very like Anne Meara and Jerry Stiller. And she lives in the Dakota with them.

A (4:27)

That could not be more different than what the book actually is, FYI.

C (4:32)

And that was really fun to write, but it really just, it was sort of all over the place. So sometimes you just have to kind of put Spanx on the book and really focus. And I just needed to be in that house in this oak parkish place and then see what happened.

A (4:51)

So maybe explain what the book actually is about and that it is not definitely not set in the city.

C (4:58)

No. Well, it's set in the 1970s and Phoebe is an 18 year old and she's just about to graduate from high school. She has a very dear friend, Luna, and they have a very intense girlhood friendship, which was really one of the instigating interests of mine at which, you know, many writers have explored intense girlhood friendships. But I too have been interested in the intensity of those relationships, the fact that you feel you can be your best self and you feel unselfconscious, and it feels very pure. So the book concerns that friendship. And also, Phoebe is looking back at the friendship. Cousin Sue. My cousin sue read the book, and she said very woefully, jane, why did Phoebe make the choices she makes? And I thought, well, that's the book, actually, because she's looking back and this relationship that seemed so pure, she's now wondering what was really the power dynamic there. And both girls love the novel Jane Eyre. And I also was recently asked, you know, why did you choose Jane Eyre to have this book that bonds the girls and they both love so much, and they read it a million times and they discuss it, And I said, oh, you know, it's a great book. And, you know, whatever I said. And then, of course, upon further reflection, I wish I'd said Jane Eyre is the perfect book, especially for Phoebe, because it concerns Jane Eyre's conflict, tension between wanting to have autonomy and also thinking she has to be submissive. And I think that really probably resonates very deeply at a deep level with Phoebe as she's coming of age because her friend Luna is very powerful. And she later thinks, well, should I have followed her directives? Maybe yes, maybe no.

A (7:02)

And that's the book. So you mentioned you do go back from the future and look back, right? You have these little glimpses. And the Washington Post actually just wrote a beautiful review of this book and called attention to that piece of it, the looking back and forward. And you give us these little glimpses early on as to what does happen to Luna, as opposed to waiting till the end for all of that? Why give us those teasers sort of early? Why give us. Why do we look back from so early on?

C (7:35)

Why give it away in some zibi. I don't know. As the great Pee Wee Herman said.

A (7:42)

You know, it's the first time Pee Wee Herman has been quoted on this podcast in eight years. So thank you for that.

C (7:48)

You know, the COVID I just have to digress for a minute because the COVID is so wonderful. You, Zibby, everybody did such a great job with the COVID And the girl is blowing a bubble. And so I did bring some bubble gum. And I was thinking, as Pee Wee did in his shows, he would throw Tootsie Rolls into the audience. But I think I won't do that for the cleanup crew. But anyway, interestingly, nobody in my travels so far has been that interested in having double bubble. But anyway, you know, I think.

A (8:18)

How about at the end? You throw out the double bubble at the end.

C (8:22)

Okay, well, they still have to in the signing line.

A (8:24)

Okay.

C (8:25)

Okay. But I think. And you know this because you've written several books, but all writing is an organizational problem. And when are you going to dispense the information? Is the big question, really. And so I just thought it would be better to sort of sprinkle it along the way rather than having this thing, this block at the end or in the middle. But was it a conscious choice? I'm not really sure. I'm friends with Elizabeth George, who writes police procedurals, and we were together once when she was working on one of the Lindley books, and we were, you know, she had the dining room table, and she had this moment where I've never really seen a person's head explode in the way hers did because the reader had gotten ahead of where she wanted the reader to be in the laying out of this mystery. And I just thought that. I mean, that's a genre which. But, you know, I mean, you have to figure out when to dispense the information. But it's not like the whole book will fall apart in an instant if the reader gets ahead.

A (9:35)

True.

B (9:35)

Okay.

A (9:36)

Well, I like asking questions that have no answer, so that's great. You wrote a little bit about from the point of view of Phoebe, and you said this is about writing in general. And I'm wondering if this applies to you or you just were writing it, but maybe you don't know. Which is also fine. I suppose she dismissed my idea of musician because my piano teacher, Mrs. Paddleford, had told me in my junior year not to set my sights overly high. Luna then was coming up with what she considered a surefire replacement. I thought, okay. I thought author would be a fine enough thing to be. And maybe I could write what I didn't know. Articles, poems, stories. But not something as long as a novel. Writing wasn't my heart's desire, but I could try to make it so.

C (10:22)

Aw, Phoebe.

A (10:25)

Is this a Jane thing? Is writing not your heart's desire? But you're just doing it and we're just reading it?

C (10:31)

No, writing is my heart's desire. Okay. Phew. Although I would have loved to have been as talented and as disciplined a piano player as Phoebe. You know, she's really good, and she practiced, and she's not gonna be a concert pianist, but she's not that far off in her capacity, so would love to have been a, you know, prima ballerina or a pianist, but I always knew that I would write throughout.

A (11:00)

So there is a lot of the what should I do with my life? Soul searching in the book, which of course is just what most 18 year olds go through. So you captured that in such a wonderful way. And then from the adult perspective, we find out that pretty early on that Phoebe has a son. Is that okay to say? Did I? Okay. And you write this scene that really stuck out to me, even though this wasn't on the theme of the friendship and the love relationships. But it is about motherhood and regret. So I just wanted to read this one thing, if that's okay. You said when he was three, I slapped him as hard as I could. I slapped his face. More than an error, that unbridled anger, a young woman's rage. He'd taken a magic marker and covered the picture pages of my sheet music, a valuable addition to me, with indelible ink. He at first was stunned. A look of incomprehension, a wrinkled brow, a cry coming up his throat. But that expression quickly passed. He lowered his eyes. He made no sound. It was as if he were seeing the great truth, the dull vessel of sorrow. My three year old. Decades later, I still cannot bear it.

C (12:11)

What can I say? I mean, I don't know about you all, but I have little episodes like that with my children. I threw my son in the lake when he was 5 because all of his cousins were swimming like fish and he wasn't. And then later he would say things like, mom, can I have 20 bucks? You threw me in the lake. I feel so bad about that. What are you going to do? It's over. You can't go back. Yeah. Anyway, they turned out okay.

A (12:42)

But that's good. Does he like to swim?

C (12:46)

Not overly much.

A (12:49)

I can't say I'm surprised. But anyway, what was it like just going back to your career in general, being an Oprah's Pick twice. What was that experience like for you? Today's episode is sponsored by Live It Up. If you are someone who wants real results and not watered down promises, it's time to upgrade your greens game. Most powders out there either taste like.

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B (16:55)

Because it always they look so pretty.

A (16:57)

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B (18:10)

And now I have to go get my office chair.

C (18:13)

What was it like? I mean, it wasn't like birthday or Christmas or it was its own special category of thing that wasn't really like anything. And I'm really grateful to her. She gave me. I mean the book of Ruth had been published for seven or eight years when she chose it. And there were already, I don't know, 85,000 copies in print, which I was thrilled with. And then she gives me a million readers. That's remarkable. And I think that I had actually had this experience with her years before where I had been invited to go down and just meet her because she had liked the Book of Ruth and her producer called me. So I went down to the Harpo Studios in Chicago and I watched. And then they said, be the last in line and just tell her who you are. Felt like such an idiot. Hi, Oprah, I'm Jane Hamilton. Because she would greet everybody after the show. I wrote the book and she was like, the way she does. And then she began to spontaneously quote from the book. Maybe she at that point knew that I was coming, maybe she didn't, I don't know. But I've never had that experience. And then we went up into the Oprah empire and had lunch and we talked about books non stop. And, you know, when I was watching the show, I kept thinking, I think I could do what she's doing. Oh, wow, really? That happened to you? But no, she has that extraordinary thing that is real true charisma. And she makes you feel like you are loved, you are best friends, you're the most interesting person she's ever encountered. And it's remarkable to be in the presence of that. So then I had to more experiences with the book club, and it was really fun. And I also will say that I'm really grateful that I didn't get that glare right out of the gate as a debut novelist, because I think a lot of people who were picked right when their book was published thought, well, this is how it's gonna be. And oftentimes that wasn't the case. Oprah said, read this book, and her readers did, but they didn't necessarily follow the career of the person, which is fair, because every month there was a book. But I just knew that it would be brief. And I was glad to already have had that experience, but it was great.

A (20:26)

So back us up to getting started as an author. What did that look like? And what was your first published book? What drove you to become a writer?

C (20:36)

Well, it was long ago and far away, Zibby. And my mother was a writer, My grandmother was a writer. I just thought you should be a writer. And I was an English major at Carleton College, and I always, you know, got encouragement, and I got rejected at all the MFA programs I applied to, which there weren't a zillion in those days. And so I was living on this apple farm and I just kind of worked at the forums myself and was under the illusion that I was the only person writing, which I think was really helpful for me at that time. But here's the real thing. This was pre email. We were free. No, I mean, I look back and I just think that was really great to come up in this time where you just put your head down and did the thing. And then I would send my stories out to the New Yorker, the Atlantic, Harpers. And there was a summer intern at Harper's magazine. And I've never been able to find out who this person is or was who actually made my career. They didn't have records. I've asked at Harper's, they didn't have records. But he or she passed the story up to Helen Rogan, the editor there, the fiction editor. And she bought it. And that was amazing. I mean, over the transom. And I don't think that can happen anymore. I'm not sure, but I don't think so. And she called me on my. Whatever it was, 25th birthday maybe, and she said, well, you know, I'm really, I'm sorry, we can only offer you $500, but we'd like to publish it. And I was like, that's okay. But that was the start for me. And she was a terrific editor. And she bought, I think, two more stories. And then agents came calling, which there's that old catch 22. You can't be published unless you have an agent, and you can't get an agent unless you're published. So that really was. That was wonderful. I feel very grateful to Helen Rogen and that intern and Harper's Magazine.

A (22:32)

And then you went from there and started writing novels.

C (22:35)

I did. I sent a story to Helen Rogen and It was a 23 page condensed version of the Book of Ruth in a hick dialect that doesn't exist anywhere on earth. And Helen Rogan very nicely said, jane, you know, this isn't a story, right? And so I was like, oh, I was pregnant at the time. And, you know, people say really lovely, well meaning things like, really enjoy this time, because once you have the baby, your life is over. So I just sat down and because I had this story, I just kind of stretched it out and put clothes on the people. And so I kind of had the structure. So that was helpful. And then it took a long time actually to find an agent. And then I did, and then the rest went forward.

A (23:27)

Amazing. So that brings us to this current book, talk a little bit about the adoption, the found family, the Phoebe's search for who her mother is, what that really means and what is the role of a mother? Because in this story, the role of.

C (23:47)

The mother is to throw you into the lake. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

A (23:53)

No, no, it's okay. Go ahead.

C (23:55)

Well, I myself wasn't adopted, and I don't have adopted children. But around the same time, I was hearing the same story from a couple different people where they had taken their adopted child to meet the birth family. And the realizes that, oh, this family is intact and I'm in the middle. There's an older child and a younger child and why did they. Which, you know, is certainly traumatic. So the thing about Phoebe, I think what made her interesting to me was that I think it's Freud who talks about. At a certain point, the child realizes that maybe the parents aren't the real parents. Which allows the child to fantasize about these ideal parents. But Phoebe, at whatever psychic level she knows there's something a little screwy because her adopted mother, Greta, has tried to supply her with information about the birth family, which she rejects. So she's unusual in that she doesn't want the information. She doesn't look at the Christmas cards. She doesn't look at the pictures of the other. The sisters. No, she's not gonna engage you, Greta. You adopted me. You are my mother. So she does not wish to have any fantasies about what could be or what was. And then Greta kind of pushes her to engage with the family, which feels kind of brutal to her.

A (25:27)

Well, she's not the only pusher because another pusher that you have is the cleaning lady.

C (25:31)

Oh, the cleaning lady. Yes.

A (25:35)

Hertha, who came from Germany, won't talk about her past and instead gossips relentlessly about every family in the neighborhood and really has, like, quite a lovely supporting role. I mean, I can see her being cast and someone saying, oh, well, that's a great role for me. Talk a little bit about her and the role of her in the story and the role of gossip as it bonds us all together.

C (25:57)

Yes. Well, Hertha's the cleaning lady in this 1970ish o parkish place. And she cleans for many. And so she travels from house to house and she tells each household what's gone on in the previous household. So she is, you know, just the. What do they call those in the Middle Ages? Yeah, she's the town crier. Thank you. And so Phoebe learns valuable information from her and also takes care of her at the end of her days. And also, Hertha has a very complex relationship with Phoebe's best friend's family and trashes them in a way that's kind of satisfactory to Phoebe.

A (26:42)

Well, things continue to emerge about the family throughout the book. So you have to just keep reading and find out some of these secrets that Hertha, of course, knows.

C (26:52)

Perhaps there was actually in my real life, you know how fiction is just this great stew of real people and not real people? And it becomes. But I worked at Marshall Fields when I was in college and high school. And there was a woman named Hertha who was in greeting cards, and she wore a pink smock, and she had pockets, and the greeting cards were in her pocket, and she would be shelving them. And she's long gone. And I don't think she has any family members. So I don't think there's going to be a lawsuit. And I just. I loved calling this character Hertha because for me, it was an homage to Hertha. But she would say things to me like, I studied ballet. And she'd say, well, Jane, are you on quarter toe, demi toe or full toe? I was like, I don't think that's really ballet term terminology. Her thumb. Anyway, she was really. She was just such a beautiful character. So I have. I'm glad you gave her a shout out, because I love her.

A (27:50)

I love her, too. So what do you want people to take from the Phoebe Variations once they put it down? What do you want to leave readers with?

C (27:58)

That's a very hard question.

A (27:59)

You saved it for the end.

C (28:01)

I know. And everybody. It's not an uncommon question. And I really have to figure out how to answer it because I don't know who the reader is. I wrote it with a couple people in mind that I was writing it, too. But the reader is so various. And I think, although there's sorrow in this book, my feeling, my vibration I get from it is that it's warm. There's a warmth to it. That's what I think. And I've just read a couple of books that after I've finished them, I just, like, I hold them to my heart. So I would just. I mean, that would make me really happy if there was a percentage of readers who held it to his or her heart.

A (28:47)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that. That feeling. How many people here do that? Right? Oh, I guess everybody holds book. I thought I was so unique. Well, I am sure that Someone here, if not already me, is going to be holding this book to their heart. So thank you so much for putting it out in the world, for not giving up for nine years, which is so inspiring and for introducing us to this really interesting cast of characters. So thank you.

C (29:12)

Thank you, Zibi and I just want to say I know where we're going, but I had the greatest editor ever.

A (29:17)

You did, you did. I should have mention Cory Hunter edited this book, acquired this. This book like was the ultimate. Shepherd is just should be up here interviewing you.

C (29:27)

Honestly, she was amazing. At least on the website she'd say things like jane, there's a sentence on page 175 that I think would be better on page 54. She was right, you know. Okay, 10 that the double bubble has spread out.

A (29:42)

Okay, thank you so much.

C (29:43)

Thank you. Thank you, Sibi.

A (29:46)

Thank you for listening to Total Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram Iby Owens and Spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

B (30:06)

Today's episode has been sponsored by Paramount Pictures Corporation. Okay, you guys, there is a movie coming out called Regretting youg based on Colleen Hoover's best selling book of the same name. I know many of you already know about this because I sent out an invitation to a screening when they so kindly gave us some tickets and over 250 of you asked for tickets even though at the time we only had 20. We got a lot more. Anyway, I know you're all already excited about this movie, but for those of you who don't know, let me tell you more about it. This is about Morgan Grant, played by Allison Williams and her daughter Clara, played by McKenna Grays, as they explore what's left behind after a devastating accident, reveals a shocking betrayal and forces them to confront family secrets, redefine love and rediscover each other. Regarding you as a story of growth, resilience and self discovery in the aftermath of tragedy. Also starring Dave Franco and Mason Thames. With Scott Eastwood and Willa Fitzgerald. In theaters October 24th. Are you excited? I am so, so excited. Director Josh Boone is the one who did the fault in our stars, obviously Colleen Hoover. It's about mother, daughter relationships, heartbreak, grief, first love, second chances. It's the perfect film to share with your best friend, mom, grandmother, high school niece. It's filled with love and tears and laughter. Everyone will love it. Honestly, I cannot wait to see this movie. Come with us to one of the screenings. Watch it along. Send me notes on Instagram. I want to hear what you say. We'll all watch it together.

A (31:39)

Check it out.

B (31:40)

Regretting you.

A (31:44)

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