Jennifer Oko, JUST EMILIA

Summary

Totally Booked with Zibby – Episode Summary
Guest: Jennifer Oko, author of Just Emilia
Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Zibby Owens

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Episode Overview

This episode features author, journalist, and filmmaker Jennifer Oko discussing her latest novel, Just Emilia. The conversation delves into the book’s origins, its inventive narrative structure exploring stages of a woman’s life, the emotional complexities of mother-daughter relationships, and Jennifer’s multifaceted creative career. The episode is filled with insights on writing, memory, compassion, and the challenges and joys of storytelling.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Spark Behind Just Emilia

• Elevator Inspiration:
  Jennifer recounts the book’s origin story, explaining how a fleeting moment stuck in a D.C. metro elevator led her to imagine a novel where a character is trapped with versions of herself from different ages.
  • Quote:

    “By the time I got home… I was thinking this could be a really interesting premise for a novel. Stuck in an elevator with people. And then I was like, who would be the hardest person to be stuck with? And I thought myself probably.” (03:37 - Jennifer Oko)

2. Crafting Three Versions of the Same Character

• Intergenerational Encounter:
  Zibby highlights the book’s premise—a woman, on the day of her mother’s death, is confronted by her teenage and older selves.
  • Jennifer reflects on the emotional connections between mothers and daughters and how writing the “middle” character was a natural extension of her own experiences as a mother.
• Impact of Key Events Across Time:
  Jennifer describes wanting to see how a singular traumatic event would reverberate through a character’s life—especially as memories and guilt evolve.
  • Quote:

    “I loved the idea of one incident having this impact throughout stages of her life… How did that impact her at 17? At 47 and 17… what happens with our memories, with our guilt, with our experiences as we go on in life.” (05:14 - Jennifer Oko)

3. Writing Process and Environment as Muse

• Blending Fact and Fiction:
  Jennifer clarifies that although the "middle" character draws loosely from her own life, her family dynamics are not strictly autobiographical.
• Navigating Writer’s Block & The Flow:
  She talks about juggling multiple book projects and choosing to immerse herself in Just Emilia during the pandemic because of its natural momentum.
  • Quote:

    “Sometimes you get the flow. And sometimes you don’t. It came naturally to get rolling with it. And then obviously, there are lots of hiccups as you go. And I’m very much the kind of writer who writes herself into a corner and then tries to figure out how to write herself out of it.” (07:10 - Jennifer Oko)

• DC’s Past, Present, Future:
  The narrative leaves the elevator to explore D.C. at various points in history, which Jennifer found creatively stimulating.

4. Professional Trajectory & Memoir Writing

• From Newsroom to Novelist:
  Jennifer began her career as a journalist (ABC News, CBS), which provided a grounding in storytelling and a “creative outlet.”
  • She wrote her first book, a memoir, Lying: My Russian Affair, after returning from Russia, inspired by her diary entries, which she developed through workshops and classes.
  • Quote:

    “It was an incredible experience publishing, writing and publishing that book and putting it out into the world. But it was also, it made me very vulnerable. Like a memoir is, it’s a lot. Right?” (11:29 - Jennifer Oko)

• Making Room for Creativity:
  Jennifer discusses balancing her documentary film work with creative writing, and the importance of maintaining creative outlets outside her primary profession.

5. Documentary Filmmaking

• Current Projects:
  Jennifer shares that she is finishing a major documentary project on corruption in family court and starting another on undocumented internet migrant laborers who help rebuild after hurricanes.
  (16:14 - Jennifer Oko)

6. Real-Life Inspirations in Just Emilia

• The Ginkgo Tree:
  Zibby asks about a recurring tree in the novel, which Jennifer reveals is based on the troublesome ginkgo tree at her home.
  • Quote:

    “We have one of those ginkgo trees that drops the fruit that has been the bane of my existence since we moved into the house...it’s literally the stuff of nightmares in the book.” (17:25 - Jennifer Oko)

7. Reflections and Takeaways

• Lessons for Readers:
  Jennifer describes how interacting with readers has been moving, especially when people reflect on what they might say to their younger or older selves.
  • Quote:

    “A lot about not being so hard on ourselves, especially from women. That’s a big through line. And I feel like writing the book has actually made me more compassionate for myself.” (18:11 - Jennifer Oko)

• Embracing Change and Compassion:
  Zibby and Jennifer affirm the value of acceptance and self-compassion, particularly for women as they age.

8. Future Projects

• Next Novel in Progress:
  Jennifer’s upcoming work explores Jewish identity, family secrets, and historical intrigue involving the Jewish mafia and the Borscht Belt, set in the 1990s.
  • Working title: “The True Life of Phoebe Weiss.” (19:38 - Jennifer Oko)

9. Advice for Aspiring Writers

• The Irresistible Pull of Storytelling:
  Jennifer recounts meeting a young man at her book launch who wrote games and struggled to keep going creatively.
  • Quote:

    “If we stop telling stories, if we stop engaging in narratives, I think life gets pretty dull... We all tell stories... Whether you are writing the stories or whether you’re just telling your friends what happened to you, it’s really—everybody tells stories.” (21:04 - Jennifer Oko)

  • She encourages writers to focus on the act of storytelling rather than on external approval—“Let them,” referencing Mel Robbins’ advice.

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Notable Quotes

• “Who would be the hardest person to be stuck with? And I thought myself probably.”
  — Jennifer Oko (03:37)
• “What happens with our memories, with our guilt, with our experiences as we go on in life.”
  — Jennifer Oko (05:14)
• “I’m very much the kind of writer who writes herself into a corner and then tries to figure out how to write herself out of it.”
  — Jennifer Oko (07:10)
• “We all get in the way of ourselves, right? Writing. And it’s so hard to write and not think about what people are going to think of it. ...Let them. Hope that they hear your message and enjoy it.”
  — Jennifer Oko (21:04)

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Timestamps of Major Segments

• 03:28 – Genesis of Just Emilia; elevator inspiration
• 04:30 – Structure of the novel: meeting oneself at multiple ages
• 06:54 – The protagonist's marital storyline and pandemic writing
• 10:40 – Jennifer’s writing beginnings & transition from journalism
• 14:03 – Filmmaking and documentary career
• 17:19 – Ginkgo tree anecdotes and real-life inspiration
• 18:06 – Lessons and themes for readers; self-reflection
• 19:38 – Next novel project: Jewish mafia, Borscht Belt, and secrets
• 21:04 – Writing advice and audience Q&A moment

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Memorable Moments

• Jennifer’s humorous aside about her husband’s reaction to the book:

  “My husband is wonderful. When he read the book, he was a little like, totally not you. It’s totally not him.” (07:10)

• The universal problem of the ginkgo tree:

  “If we ever were to sell, we can’t sell in the fall because that’s when the berries start to drop and it’s just horrible.” (17:25)

• Zibby’s suggestion for mother-daughter book clubs inspired by the novel’s multigenerational theme (23:26–23:30).

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Conclusion

This episode offers an engaging and thoughtful look into Jennifer Oko’s creative process, the emotional layers of her latest novel Just Emilia, and the broader themes of memory, compassion, and the art of storytelling. Jennifer’s candid reflections make the episode insightful for readers, writers, and anyone interested in the journeys that shape both fiction and real life.

Transcript

[Jennifer Oko]

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[Zibby Owens]

Today's episode is sponsored by the Foxed Page, a podcast and YouTube channel that dives deep into the very best books. It's basically your favorite college English class, but very relaxed and way more fun. No exams, no participation, and only books you really want to read. Kimberly Ford, best selling author, one time professor and PhD in literature, offers up entertaining, often funny talks that will leave you feeling inspired and a little smarter. She digs right into everything from J.D. salinger to Miranda July, from Demon Copperhead to Madame Bovary, from Pride and Prejudice to Lessons in Chemistry. The talks on individual books are the heart of the podcast, but enriched read segments tackle ideas like unreliable narrators, while old favorite talks treat you to a fresh adult look at childhood gems like Harriet the Spy and Are you there God? It's me, Margaret. Want to get the most out of what you read and be entertained along the way? The Foxed Page is for you. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens. Jennifer Oko is the author of Just Amelia. Jennifer is a writer, journalist and filmmaker. She is the author of the memoir Lying My Russian Affair, which was an editor's choice in the New York Times Book Review, and a novel, a satire of morning television news, which was optioned by E1 Entertainment to be developed as a television series. She also wrote a novel called Head Case and now Just Amelia. Jennifer lives in Washington, D.C. with her husband, two kids, a middle aged dog and a young cat. Alongside writing books, she has spent more than two decades producing television news features and documentary films. Welcome Jennifer. Thanks so much for coming on. Totally booked. Yay.

[Jennifer Oko]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Zibby Owens]

I really loved your book. I've been talking about the premise of it to so many people. Spill the beans. What is your book about and how did you come up with this idea?

[Jennifer Oko]

I'm so glad you liked it. The true story is I was actually stuck for like a millisecond in the Friendship Heights metro elevator in Washington, D.C. and there were a couple of other people in it. They were not me, but by the time I got home, well, I was thinking this could be a really interesting premise for a novel. Stuck in an elevator with people. And then I was like, who would be the hardest person to be stuck with? And I thought myself probably. So that's how it's sort of generated. It's it. I don't even remember when I actually started it. I found a word doc from 2016. So, I mean, this story's been living with me for a really long time. But very early on it became about the same woman being stuck with herself from teenage years and older years. And it was just so much fun to play with that idea.

[Zibby Owens]

Wow. So the book is centered around the day that the protagonist's mother passes away and the three versions of her who sort of convene. The teenage version, as you said, who's sort of like a surly teenager with the school sweater and, you know, long whatever, and then, you know, an older sort of beautiful lady who is also there. And then this sort of more harried middle, middle of life mom in the midst of everything. How did you go about taking the same character? Because I wonder, everyone wonders, like, what would it be like to meet myself at another age? So tell me a little bit more about how you went from idea to really forming these three characters which are really all the same character.

[Jennifer Oko]

Yeah, I mean, so like, full disclosure, the middle character was sort of me, right? Sort of based on My life, I mean, at the time I was around that age with children. Around the age that she has. Well, she has one daughter in the book. And. Well, now my daughter is 17, or actually she just turned 18, but so she was younger then. But I have a daughter and so. And I have a mother and thank goodness she's still here. But she's wonderful, she's doing great and. But I think about that a lot. I mean, mother, daughter relationships. I think most women think about that a lot. And especially when you have a daughter and you see your daughter entering, you know, puberty and then adolescence and becoming a woman, it's hard not to think about yourself then and hard not to, you know, to distance yourself from. She's a separate person, but she's me, but she's not. And I just. I think I thought about it a lot and it just came very naturally to write about it. It just. It just made such sense to think about how this would be impacted by things throughout her life actually backing up. I loved the idea of one incident having this impact throughout stages of her life and how that one incident would impact her at exactly those moments in different ways. Like when she had big decisions to make and this trauma from the year before, the 16 year old, when she was 16. How did that impact her at 17? At 47 and 17, you know, what happens with our memories, with our guilt, with our experiences as we go on in life. And it was just really interesting and fun and challenging to think about that.

[Zibby Owens]

Wow. So fascinating. And you also have a sort of a plot line in the present tense, like with the main. The you character, let's just say, who's going through quite a bit in her marriage at the moment. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Jennifer Oko]

And to be clear, it only based on me loosely in that I was around that same age. Marriage is strong. My husband is wonderful. When he read the book, he was a little like, totally not you. It's totally not him. But again, sort of write what you know. I think at the same time that I was working on this book, I was writing and trying to write a different book that was just completely elsewhere. And then the pandemic hit and I had actually three partially written manuscripts in my proverbial chopped drawer. They were each around 40, 50,000 words at that time. And I was like, okay, you just pick one, pick one, force it through, see what happens. And that's what I did. And this one just. It just came naturally. I mean, you're a writer, you know, sometimes you get the Flow. And sometimes you don't. It came naturally to get rolling with it. And then obviously, there are lots of hiccups as you go. And I'm very much the kind of writer who writes herself into a corner and then tries to figure out how to write herself out of it. And when you're in an elevator, obviously the corner becomes a big deal. Fairly early on in the writing process, a friend of mine who read it was like, I'm feeling claustrophobic. You need to get out of the elevator. And that opened up this whole world. And that was super fun to think about because a lot of it had to do with what Washington, D.C. what this neighborhood in Washington, D.C. would be like in the future, and also what it was like in the past. And I didn't live here then. I'm from New York City originally. And so it was really fun to do that. That research to figure out, oh, what was here, what wasn't here, what did it look like? Just, I was very happy to find that, like, Rodman's is one of my favorite stores, and it was here then. So that was fun. It's totally where you would have gone to buy 10x. I don't know. You're. You're a little bit younger than me, but you must remember 10x, right? You know that, like. It's like this gel that I used to wear in high school, and it would just mold your hair into some position, and it was just. It was amazing.

[Zibby Owens]

I don't think it's the age. I just didn't use gel in my hair.

[Jennifer Oko]

I had, like, this big. I don't even know.

[Zibby Owens]

It was crazy.

[Jennifer Oko]

And then thinking about the future in D.C. has actually been giving me a lot of chills right now. I mean, D.C. is not an easy place to be right now. And while I wasn't thinking about the politics of it, just what. What the city might look like, being that it's often some of the cities in a flood zone. What would it look like? What would it feel like to be here? It's just. It's an interesting exercise, and it's. I don't know. It just felt very sort of fulfilling. Not fulfilling, because it was sort of disturbing, but interesting intellectually to think about what the physical nature of my environment would actually look like at that time.

[Zibby Owens]

It's actually a great writing prompt for those who are stuck not finding the flow that you mentioned. To think about their environment 30 years before and after and today. And just to do that is really interesting.

[Jennifer Oko]

Yeah, Maybe I should challenge myself next and be like, okay, 60 years, 70 years.

[Zibby Owens]

Just keep going, keep going. A thousand years.

[Jennifer Oko]

You know, I don't know if I want to think that far.

[Zibby Owens]

You're becoming a sci fi writer accidentally. You just never know what's going to happen. Yeah. So then when did you first start writing and like, what else did you do with your life along the way?

[Jennifer Oko]

Oh, when did I first start writing, like creative writing. So I started out actually as a journalist and I, at the time of starting to write my first book, I was at ABC News. And this is like in the mid to late 90s. And as much as I loved my job, I wanted some creative outlet. And so I standing on my bed, my best friend was over and I was like, well, why don't I start backwards? And I stood on my bed and I was like, I want to thank the Academy. I was like, because this is clearly where it's going. Right. What's funny is that that book that I started writing back then is still one of the books that's in my top drawer. And it's. Yeah. So I clearly, I need to go back to this.

[Zibby Owens]

This is a big drawer. This drawer is like.

[Jennifer Oko]

But then actually what really happened was that I wound up in Russia working as a journalist and I had a. At the time I was also went there engaged to be married. The relationship fell apart, the country at the time fell apart. And I wrote a memoir about it. And it actually started as diary entries. I was just writing my diary and I came back to New York and I was just looking and I was like, there might be a book here. And I took a class with the Gotham Writers Workshop and put it together. And like, lo and behold, there was a book. And it was an incredible experience publishing, writing and publishing that book and putting it out into the world. But it was also, it made me very vulnerable. Like a memoir is, it's a lot. Right. And so after it came out, it came out just a few weeks. I'm trying to remember the chronic. No, no, it came out, yeah, right after my wedding. But so like during my honeymoon, I had taken a leave of absence from work and my husband had an internship at UNICEF in Hanoi. And we went off and it's really hot there. And so I just sat in the air conditioned kitchen and I wrote this kind of swan song to my television career at the time. And that actually, that novel became Gloss, which was my second book. So it's sort of. They also, they sort of overlapped each other. Although Lying Together came out and it did really, it did really well and it got great reviews. It was a New York Times Editor's Choice, which is beyond amazing. And I guess that my bug, I got the bug and I couldn't stop writing and it's sort of the rest is history. Once I got, when I got the contract for Gloss, I wound up going, I was at CBS at the time and it just kind of rolled along like that. And I've been incredibly fortunate in that I have now a production company. We do documentary films, my partner Miriam Weitrab and I, but we both, so we have our sort of day job which is also really creative and interesting and still tapping into that journalist in us. But we both also have our creative outlets. So I write and she makes jewelry and oh, I'm not wearing any of her stuff. I should have worn her stu. Beautiful stuff. And so it's been lovely like for the past. We both, neither of us remember exactly how long we've been together. Now it's probably about 12 years. And so it allows us both time to have some creative outlet that isn't our professional creative outlet and still pursue the stuff that we sort of started our career as journalists.

[Zibby Owens]

That's amazing. And so what documentaries are you deep into right now?

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[Jennifer Oko]

Well, I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say. We. We had a story that has something to do with corruption and family court that we've been working on for, like, four years. Just labor of love and ultimately partnered with another production company. And so we're in the final throes of that probably, like, it's like 90% done. And so that's sort of the biggest thing we've ever done. And so it's super exciting. But we're also starting up another project right now about undocumented Internet migrant laborers who repair and rebuild after hurricanes. So we're sitting here waiting for the hurricanes to hit.

[Zibby Owens]

I know.

[Jennifer Oko]

Seriously, we're just going to jump in our cars when it happens. That's the plan.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, my gosh. And where are you based now? I'm in D.C. oh, you said that. I'm sorry. You said from D.C. and I just meant.

[Jennifer Oko]

Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

It didn't look like. It doesn't.

[Jennifer Oko]

It looks. So it doesn't look like D.C. right?

[Zibby Owens]

It doesn't look like D.C. so I was waiting for you to say, you know, in the middle of North Carolina or something.

[Jennifer Oko]

No, just like, on vacation in our backyard. It's really. It's. We actually just. We were away for two months and we just came back and we're like, what happened to that tree? It just went crazy this year.

[Zibby Owens]

Well, trees also play a role in this book. And the Bilbao tree and all that. Do you have those at your house in the front? Is that.

[Jennifer Oko]

Oh, yes. That is very much a write what you know, we have one of those ginkgo trees that drops the fruit that has been the bane of my existence since we moved into the house. And the big joke is that if we ever were to sell, we can't sell in the fall because that's when the berries start to drop and it's just horrible. And we've tried to petition our Neighbors just like happens in the book. And nobody wants to do that because everybody loves trees, and the canopy is beautiful, but this tree also. This tree is just ugly. They have to keep cutting down branches because it tangles in the wire. So it's dropping fruit. It's ugly. It's. It's terrible. It's like the stuff of nightmares. And so it's literally the stuff of nightmares in the book. Right.

[Zibby Owens]

Wow. So what do you want readers to take away from the book?

[Jennifer Oko]

What's been totally amazing is when I've done some events, I've had people write on index cards. Just say something. What would you want to say to yourself, younger or older, if you had that opportunity? And. And it's amazing to read those cards because I think giving people that moment to really reflect on that can be very profound. Now, I will say there are often the cards. It's like I would have bought stock in Apple or whatever. But there have been some really beautiful things about relationships with parents, about a lot about not being so hard on ourselves, especially from women. That's a big through line. And I feel like writing the book has actually made me more compassionate for myself. And when I'm finding myself looking in the mirror and going, oh, my God, I stop, and I'm like, you look beautiful now. And when you're 10 years from now, you're going to really be missing this face. So appreciate it. And it's a hard thing to do. I mean, aging is hard, but I think having sort of marinated in that for so many years in writing the book, it has made it a little bit easier. That's good.

[Zibby Owens]

I like that coming from a place of acceptance instead of always fighting the changes, which is great. And do you have any more fiction coming? Do you have any other ideas? Are you going to pull anything else from the drawer or riding the wave of this for a while?

[Jennifer Oko]

Yes, I do. And actually, the next one, it's another. The one I've been working on for a long, long time. And this one has a lot more to do with being Jewish and Jewish history, and I'm excited and scared of it. But the premise is that this young woman discovers. It sort of takes place in the 90s. And this woman discovers, because of her grandmother who has Alzheimer's, she's saying things that she might not have otherwise said. She discovers that her grandfather may or may not have been involved with Meyer Lansky and the Jewish mafia. And then there's this whole Borsch Belt thing. And so I had spent. I've Done a lot of research into that. Like, I've read all these crazy books about the Jewish mafia, but also the Borsch belt and all of that. And so I'm hoping. It's hard when you've got a book launching and other stuff to find the space to get back into that, but that is my plan is to get back into that book. Partly. Also that it's fun. It's like a funny, fun topic. I mean, obviously, yes, mafia bad, but still exciting. And. Yeah. So I'm hoping right now it's called the True Life of Phoebe Weiss, but I don't know what it will be called when it's. It's done. We'll see.

[Zibby Owens]

I like that. We have a book coming out from our publishing house called the Phoebe Variations this fall.

[Jennifer Oko]

Oh, really?

[Zibby Owens]

Yep.

[Jennifer Oko]

That's funny.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah. Anyway, good name. Good name. Okay. Any advice for aspiring authors?

[Jennifer Oko]

The most amazing thing happened at my launch, which was at Politics and Prose here in D.C. which is this phenomenal bookstore, right. And it was great. It was packed to the gills with lots of friends, and it was wonderful. And then this young man came up afterwards asking the question for the Q and A, and nobody I knew, didn't know him, didn't recognize him. And he said that he had grown up in a refugee camp, I believe it was in Sierra Leone. And he was talking about how he. He said, I'm not a write. I'm not an author, I'm not a novelist, but I write games. And I'm really struggling sometimes with, how do you keep going? How do you. How do you. How do you tell these stories? And I was just like you just, there is no other choice. If we stop telling stories, if we stop engaging in narratives, I think life gets pretty dull. And I think a lot of things go unanswered. I think we explore so many questions in fiction that we can't really as easily head on in life. Maybe answer or you answer it through another angle in fiction. And I just don't think there's another way. We all tell stories. And whether you are writing the stories or whether you're just. Just telling your friends what happened to you, it's really. Everybody tells stories. And so for me and for a lot of writers, that comes more easily, perhaps when you're writing and, I don't know, we all get in the way of ourselves, right? Writing. And it's so hard to write and not think about what people are going to think of it. And so I guess just know you're putting your story out there and it's a beautiful thing. And whether people like it or not is sort of out of your control and as much as you can just kind of the Mel Robbins thing, let them, when she, when she came out, when that came out was that last year, I was like, yeah, that's kind of, that's a good message. Let them hope that they hear your message and enjoy it. And honestly the response has been incredible. I mean it's been really lovely and so I'm so grateful for that.

[Zibby Owens]

That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on. I loved it. I have my mother reading it next and that' oh, you have to like.

[Jennifer Oko]

Have you tell me if you, if you want what your mother thinks and the multi generational.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah, I should have one of my daughters. I should have both my daughters read it at the same time. Anyway, whatever. We could.

[Jennifer Oko]

Super fun. Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

Reenacting. I, I see some mother daughter book clubs in your future for this, for this story.

[Jennifer Oko]

Yeah. Having my read it, I will tell you that was the scariest thing and she loved it so and she laughed a lot and said this is really funny because some of this seems a little bit familiar. But anyway, thank you so much. All right.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you so much. It was great to meet you.

[Jennifer Oko]

Thank you.

[Zibby Owens]

Good luck with the hurricane.

[Jennifer Oko]

Take care. Thank you. Bye.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

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[Boost Mobile / Capital One / MultiCare Advertisement]

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[Boost Mobile / Capital One / MultiCare Advertisement]

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