Joe McGinniss Jr., DAMAGED PEOPLE: A Memoir of Fathers and Sons

Summary

Podcast Summary: Totally Booked with Zibby

Episode: Joe McGinniss Jr., DAMAGED PEOPLE: A Memoir of Fathers and Sons
Host: Zibby Owens
Date: November 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt conversation, Zibby Owens (with a co-interviewer, Cindy) speaks with Joe McGinniss Jr. about his memoir Damaged People: A Memoir of Fathers and Sons. The episode dives into the complexities of father-son relationships, generational trauma, addiction, legacy, and the impact of the literary world on both their professional and personal lives. Joe examines his relationship with his iconic journalist father, Joe McGinniss Sr., discusses his own journey as a parent, and shares what it means to break cycles of pain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Joe McGinniss Sr.—Legacy of a Literary Maverick

• Joe Sr. became a literary "rock star" with The Selling of the President, profiling Nixon’s media campaign and enjoying meteoric early success (04:28).
• Despite professional acclaim, he struggled to balance fame and family, often physically and emotionally absent.
• Quote:
  "He had a wife at home with two daughters and me on the way... kind of like a literary rock star... he'd come home and he had to take the garbage out... that was something he was not prepared to do. And so he left." – Joe McGinniss Jr. (04:28)

2. Growing Up McGinniss—The Cost of Charisma

• Family life was a storm: Joe Sr. was loving in bursts but also unpredictable and self-absorbed due to personal struggles.
• Their mother was the family “hero,” raising three children solo while working as a nurse (06:03).
• Despite challenges, Joe emphasizes the family’s resilience and ability to foster love and empathy.
• Quote:
  "He became this joyous, loving man, but just had no control over his appetites and his compulsions and his ambition... we compared [him] to like a Category Five hurricane." – Joe McGinniss Jr. (07:46)

3. Addiction, Limits, and Attempted Self-Awareness

• Joe Sr.’s alcoholism shaped his presence and absence, and influenced Joe Jr.’s own choices as a parent.
• Discussion of whether Sr.’s distance was an attempt to protect his children (09:35).
• The family struggled with the concept of addiction as disease versus a failure to change, particularly later in life when he was given new chances with a second family but didn’t change behaviors (10:13).
• Joe Jr. reflects on the difficulty—and ultimate futility—of trying to intervene or “save” his father (12:53).

4. Intergenerational Mental Health—Choosing a Different Path

• Joe Jr. shares his own episode of depression as a new father and contrasts his approach (seeking help, medication) with his father's approach (drinking).
• Quote:
  "He’s self-medicating... I never drank. Having watched him drink, it terrified me... when I was having this [depressive episode] with my son, he was like three... I talked to somebody... this is my gene pool, this is my brain chemistry." – Joe McGinniss Jr. (14:11)
• Choosing self-awareness and treatment is portrayed as a divergence from the destructive cycles of the previous generation.

5. Becoming a Father—The Risk of Repetition

• Joe candidly discusses moments where he saw his father's flaws surfacing in himself, especially when relating to his teenage son, Jason (16:29).
• The “big mistake in the car” becomes symbolic—a minor family rupture that looms large with parental guilt and the fear of repeating generational harm.
• Quote:
  "This whole book is like an apology to Jason for this terrible day in the car." – Cindy (16:29)
• Joe reflects on parental investment as a potential “addiction” and the importance of recognizing one’s own role in family dynamics (20:12).

6. The Literary World—A Double-Edged Sword

• Publishing is described as both a source of validation and destruction for the McGinniss family.
• Joe Sr.’s legendary books (Fatal Vision, Blind Faith, etc.) brought wealth which was later squandered, and his behavior eventually alienated him within the industry (23:37).
• The external judgment from the literary world compounded internal family wounds.
• Joe Jr. follows his father into writing, experiencing both lean years and deep satisfaction in his own career despite hardships (26:36).
• Quote:
  "It wasn’t so much publishing that took him down. It was kind of his own behavior and his own choices." – Joe McGinniss Jr. (25:53)
• Joe discusses writing Damaged People as an act of personal reckoning and fulfillment, even while facing family pushback over its publication (28:20).

7. Finding Meaning—From Damage to Agency

• The episode closes with a reflection on a memory: Joe Sr. mourns the loss of a napkin blown away by the wind—a metaphor for the loss of control over life (29:26).
• Joe Jr. finds wisdom in eventual acceptance, learning to value agency and humility over denial or bitterness.
• Quote:
  “It may have all been blowing away in the moment... But he found a way to do better than he ever had... It's not all blowing away. It's... kind of propelling us forward.” – Joe McGinniss Jr. (29:52)
• The final message is that being “damaged” is ordinary; what matters is striving to do better for the next generation (31:28).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On addiction and parenting:
  “He knew I’m going to do more harm than good if I’m in town... I can’t control my appetites right now.” – Joe McGinniss Jr. (09:35)
• On inherited pain:
  "His gene pool was not exactly... It was Irish, it was depressed, it was alcoholic, it was lonely, it was stifled and Catholic." – Joe McGinniss Jr. (06:50)
• On writing and healing:
  “In writing this memoir, I kind of discovered... that thread of my father, that intensity... as a father, I was all in. I was hooked. It was kind of like my high.” – Joe McGinniss Jr. (20:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:10 – Introduction to Joe McGinniss Jr. and the memoir's premise
• 04:28 – Joe Sr.'s rise to literary stardom and family impact
• 06:03 – Family dynamics and resilience
• 07:46 – The metaphor of the hurricane: living with big personalities
• 09:35 – Alcoholism and generational trauma
• 14:11 – Intergenerational mental health and breaking the cycle
• 16:29 – Joe as a father and reckoning with paternal mistakes
• 23:37 – The literary world as a force in the family narrative
• 26:36 – Joe’s choice to be a writer despite family history
• 29:26 – The napkin moment: legacy and loss
• 31:28 – Moving forward as “ordinary” damaged people

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Concluding Thoughts

This episode of Totally Booked with Zibby stands out as a raw, honest exploration of family, ambition, regret, reconciliation, and the search for meaning through storytelling. Both Joe McGinniss Jr. and the hosts weave together the long shadow of literary fame, the weight of addiction, and the ongoing work required to build a healthier future. Ultimately, the conversation offers hope in the form of reflection, humility, and the possibility to do better with each new generation.

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Transcript

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[Zibby Owens]

Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling buzziest underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibeowens.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Joe McGinnis Jr. Is the author of.

[Zibby Owens]

Damaged A Memoir of Fathers and Sons. He is also the author of Carousel Court and the Delivery Man. Joe lives in Washington, D.C. with his family.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Welcome, Joe. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about Damaged, A.

[Zibby Owens]

Memoir of Fathers and Sons.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Congratulations.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Thank you, Cindy. Very nice of you to have me.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Oh, it's my pleasure. I really enjoyed your book. It was tough at times, what your dad was going through, the difficult relationship with you and your son, at times, your own growth. I mean, there's a lot in here, all the ups and downs of your dad's publishing journey, all of it. There's a lot. And it was, it was, it was quite moving. So thank you for sharing it all.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Well, thank you for, for indulging it. It was not, it was not an easy book to write.

[Unidentified Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

I bet.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Yeah. My father was, you know, he was a trailblazer. He really, he, he was a maverick and he just sort of started out his life knowing exactly what he wanted to do at the youngest age and did it at the highest level from out of the gate with the selling of the President.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

So wait, take listeners back and explain who your dad was for those who weren't familiar with his work and what it was like watching the ebbs and flows of his success and what that did to you and your, your family.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Oh, my God. Yeah. So he was Joe McGinnis and he was a journalist and he wrote a book called the Selling of the President. And it was about Richard Nixon's media campaign in 1968 featuring Roger Ailes. It became a New York Times bestseller, 31 Weeks, number one. It was next to Diary of Anne Frank as the youngest person to have a bestseller and for that long. And it set his career. It just, it launched him. He was on the Tonight Show. He was traveling the country, traveling the world. And meanwhile, he had a wife at home with two daughters and me on the way. And he became just sort of kind of like a literary rock star. And it was Davies just everybody wanted a piece of him and he'd come home and he had to take the garbage out and he'd have to be a father and be responsible and shut it down somehow and shift gears. And that was something he was not prepared to do. And so he left. And he left just far enough away so that he could sort of live his life and not have to, like, worry about the kid popping in on a Tuesday after school or, you know, helping with homework or whatever. It was just like, look, I need my space now. He was really young and this was a different era, but it still really screwed us up. I mean, it was hard to cope with.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

And then, of course, you have to be. Not of course, but. And then you were sort of trotted out as the idyllic kids for photo shoots.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Oh, sure.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

And having to just put on a happy face.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Yeah. We would go visit for the weekend and it just so happened that someone was doing a profile of him for his upcoming book and we were there. I don't know if it was coincidence, but, you know, the thing with my dad, he was so warm, he was so affectionate, he was so funny. He would give big hugs, he read to us, he played with us, he camped out in the yard with me. I mean, he loved being a father when he wanted to be and when he was prepared to be, which seemed to be about, I don't know, one weekend a month and a few weeks in the summer. And he would write nice letters and he would call on Sundays and, you know, so growing up, we kind of like, it was. This was just life. And of course our mother was the hero because she was working a full time job as a nurse and raising the three of us in the 70s. And somehow, despite being damaged people, we all pretty much did pretty well. I mean, we, we raised beautiful kids and empathetic kids and. And we are empathetic and we, we are, we love each other and we have our issues, but we, we aren't these, like, jaded cynics to have all this anger. We, we get it. We understand that he was human. He had his frailties. It's taken us a lifetime to sort of try to process what was going on inside his head because he came from some pretty intense genes. I mean, his gene pool was not exactly. It was Irish, it was depressed, it was alcoholic, it was lonely, it was stifled and Catholic. And so he was, he. He had a lot to contend with and he was an only child, so it wasn't like he had siblings to lean on and process. And so he. He took on the world both emotionally and professionally and. And to that, for that, I. I am. I'm so proud and impressed with what he was able to do and the kind of father he was able to be despite growing up with a cold, aloof, alcoholic father. He became this joyous, loving man, but just had no control over his appetites and his compulsions and his ambition. So he was. He was kind of like we. Compared to, like a five, category five hurricane. So we're all. But it's in the house. And so you're just sort of like, you want to be in the eye of the storm, but you know the wall is coming and you're going to get hit and you're going to get tossed around. So he was. He was a lot to contend with.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Well, not to mention, you know, all the. All the things he got into later in life and his constant drinking and taking it for the weekend and stopping for alcohol. I mean, on the one hand, when you hear like, oh, our dad left and he could only be a dad a little bit of the time, it's like, oh, that's terrible. But then you think about it like, is this a man who theoretically knew his own limits and tried to put himself in a position to succeed, even though it didn't look like what a traditional family structure might look like or what you might have wanted? Like, maybe this was the way he put himself forward the best he could?

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Absolutely. I mean, there's absolutely a lot to be said for that. The. The notion that he knew exactly what you said. He knew I'm going to do more harm than good if I'm in town in a different house because I can't control my appetites right now. And I know if I'm sitting here having a bad day, writing, and I decided to have a few drinks because I'm feeling it, and my kids pop in, that's not going to go well. Now, the. The issue that I came up with, the problem I had with this later on, I still have contention with my half brother and my stepmother.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Yep.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Because they are of the mindset that, hey, it's a disease, and there was only so much that he could do. He was powerless against it. You know, at a certain point, decades into it, with all the resources, all the money, all the expertise, all the time to devote to, say, like, let me take this head on. Let me try to figure out what my demons are and deal with them head on. That never happened. He never had the ability or the willingness to do that. And he had a chance with kids under his roof, with my half brothers, to start from scratch and say, hey, I'm here every day. And I moved there. I lived with him for two years when I was 13 because I wanted some time with my dad, so he knew what it's like to be a president. He was wonderful. I mean, don't get me wrong.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

No, no, I get it.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

It was not a house of horrors in Williamstown, Massachusetts. It was like. It was like, oh, my God, this is amazing. I mean, it's wonderful now, except for dinner time when he drank, which was every night. And so you'd have to watch me kind of fade out. And I watched your wonderful. Got to read Lily King's new novel. But she's just amazing in her story with her father. And I was listening to her speak with you and just talking about the signs, the physical symptoms. He would start to perspire. His face would start to get a little red. He would sigh more. And this was every night. And I would watch my father reach for the second bottle of wine at the table, and he was the only one at the table drinking, so. And this was after the gin and after the beer. And I'm 13, and I'm sitting there like, ah, you know, I hate this. Like, I hate watching this. What's wrong now? So he had the chance with kids under the roof, to be a present father and take this stuff on, and he didn't. And it's. He's like a lot of people who. Who were. They were rock stars, they were superstars. They. They knew. They knew power and fame early. It was their show, and they bore all responsibility. And with that came some liberty, some freedom to just be and not have to really answer to anyone. And so no one really ever. I mean, I kind of. That's one of my regrets, is that we never did try to intervene in a formal way. Like, no, interventions don't always stick.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Yeah, I was like, I don't feel like that would have gone over that well with him.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Oh, God, no. Don't get me wrong. It would have been a disaster in the moment, but there were. I just. I kind of wish we had been more unified and consistent with our approach to him, but he was. He was so. He was so tough to sort of like, to take head on because he was so smart and just so cynical, and he had this Larry David streak in him, and he would break you down and, you know, just sort of make a. You know, just. He was just his force of nature. And at a certain point we just sort of had to, I don't know, build our storm shelters and just kind of like ride it out when we could and otherwise stick our heads up and see whatever.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

I love how you then fast forward to you as new dad, you as dad, sort of in the teenage years. You talk about this period where you had a depressive episode and your dad actually reached out to you about it and you know, discussed his tendencies and you had to get treatment and all that and you did. Which is like how the two roads diverged, right? Like, you took this one way and he took another untreated way. And what does that mean? Essentially?

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Exactly like he's self medicated. He went to try therapy for a long time and it didn't stick. You know, we have a long family history of Lexapro is our sort of go to low dose Lexapro. That's fine. We're Irish, we get it. But like with him it was, I, I think the drinking really screwed him up. Like it made it so much harder to contend with the sort of depressive episodes or just the melancholy because that, that, that way of self medicating obviously was so destructive and got in the way. I never drank. Having watched him drink, it terrified me. So I never had a sip and that, that I'm fortunate that I never did. And so when I was like having this with my son, he was like 3 years old and everything was just so glorious. We had a yellow lab. My book was out. My wife was healthy and loving work and life was just charmed. I was like, this is too good. Something's got to give. And I was just like a mess. I was like, I can't be around my son because it's just too good. And so I talked to somebody and he was like, you got to try this, Lex. Well, it was a Fexor was the first thing, very low dose. And I was like, this is no good. And then he's like, try Alexa Pro. It's like, oh, okay. My mom's on Lexapro. My sister's on Lexa Pro, My brother's on Lexapro. So it was like, this is our family drug. And I was like, cool, all right, this is great. And from that point forward it's like, all right, I get it. This is my gene pool, this is my brain chemistry. And this is my son and my life. And this is pretty freaking awesome. And so you're right, the paths diverged and I was so fortunate to have been able to observe my father see what he did right and what he got right, and then what he tragically got so wrong. And actually try to take from that and do a little bit better.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

And then you take us into your relationship with Jason and how you really beat yourself up. For this one moment in the car, I feel like this. This whole book is like an apology to Jason for this terrible day in the car.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Wow.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Look, you know, and all parents make mistakes. You know, I mean, it was like one minute I was, like, yelling on the way to school this morning. It's like, you just, like, in the moment, sometimes you're just like, ah.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

I know. It was. It was. It was tough, man. It was. It was post covet, and. And he was 14, and he was a basketball prodigy and superstar, and it was aau, but he was sort of. He was on his phone all the time, and he was going, you know, just not working hard because he kept saying to me, I want to play college basketball. I want to be Division 1. And every time we check in with him, every season, he sure, you want to do this? If you do it, there's a certain way you got to do it, because we're in the dmv, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia. It's like the hotbed of basketball. Like, oh, my God, the competitiveness is through the roof. So you got to go out there and you got to bring a certain edge and swagger. And he is an introspective, sweet, sensitive. He's our child, and yet he's got this amazing talent. And so it was like these. He had, like, the angel and the devil, and he's got to indulge the devil when he goes out there, but he's a little angel, but we're like, dude, you gotta bring it. And so he was out there kind of, like, lazily. He's been on his phone, and that's our fault, but I just was like, I can't take this, man. Like, how many times do we have to drive an hour and a half to watch you go out there and go through the motions for something you say you love? Now you're 14. You're not nine or eight. It's like, go time. What are you gonna do? Who do you want to be? And so, yeah, like, I kind of lost. I kind of. I was like, dude, this is no good. And it's the damn phone. I was, like, blaming the phone. It's like, this phone. What did we do? But, you know, look, that's the. That was the downside of sort of an over investment. And I kind Of. In writing this memoir, I kind of discovered that, for me, that thread of my father, that intensity, that sort of. Not a compulsion, but as a father, I was all in. I was hooked. It was kind of like my high. He was my high. Like, every day after school, watching him play and playing goalie so he could take shots on me and playing quarterback while they play football and bringing his snacks. And it was just like, being a writer is awesome because I get to watch and help my son grow up. And I was hooked. And the moment he sort of became a teenager, it became real and. And became vulnerable. And wasn't just this constant high for me. He became a challenge. He needed help. He was struggling. Suddenly I was cut off. It was like, wait, you were my high now. You're not making me happy all the time. You're not. You're. You're kind of, like, giving me a hangover. And so I was like, what do I do? I need my fix. You. You're not. You're struggling. But I'm supposed to be. You're supposed to be getting me high. Like, so I feel like, in a way, that was my kind of form of addiction playing out. And my worst moments with him were kind of like going cold turkey, like, being cut off. And it took me some real processing and effort to figure out, hey, wait a second. It's not fair to him. I can't let him. I can't put that on him. This is. This is about me. And so. And writing this memoir helped. Helped a great deal.

[Zibby Owens]

Today's episode is sponsored by ORA Frames. I'm so grateful to Aura Frames because I loaded mine filled with pictures of my late stepfather right after he passed away. Images of him with all of his grandchildren, my mom, my brother, everyone in our family. Not only did I display it during our memorial service, but I have it in our kitchen. And every time I make a cup of coffee or walk in the kitchen, which is a million times a day, I get to see him with different images and even videos up to 30 seconds showcasing how great he was. It's helping keep my family together. My kids get to look at it and be reminded of him, and it makes me feel closer to my mom, who's across the country. It's become such a personal, important thing in my home, and I am just deeply, deeply grateful.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Plus, I have to say, in a time when I was really stressed, it.

[Zibby Owens]

Took only about two minutes to set up and was so easy to collaborate on that I could ask all of my stepfather's grandchildren and kids to upload their own photos without my having to do it. It's really amazing and I am so grateful. For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's bestselving cost. Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Zibby at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code ZIBBY. This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now before it ends. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Thank you, Aura Frames, for bringing meaning.

[Zibby Owens]

Into my life and joy into so many others.

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[Paige Desorbo]

Hi, it's Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. You ever stand in front of your closet and just say, I have nothing to wear while you're literally surrounded by clothes? Because same. So I started listing pieces. I'm over on depop, and honestly, it's been amazing. You can sell what you're done with and someone out there will love it. And the best part about it is there's no seller fee, so the money you make actually stays in your pocket, which feels very chic. It's also insanely easy. I listed something while watching TV and it sold before the episode even ended. So download the Depop app and list your first item today because your old outfit could be someone else's new favorite. Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees, boosting fees still apply. For more info, visit depop.com.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

I mean, on top of all of those complicated, delicate relationships, you also have the literary world as a character itself. The rise and fall of different books, your career, his career, how they dovetail, what it means to succeed and fail and come back and fail and come back again. And I feel like publishing has caused some of the damage represented in the book.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Yeah, I mean, what are you gonna do? I mean, he. My father, the fact that he wrote Fatal Vision and that was his sort of comeback and had a string of true crime bestsellers after that Blind Faith, Cruel doubt, all were on tv, NBC, miniseries. I mean, he made a ridiculous amount of money publishing and through, you know, a couple really bad choices. He was ruined because of the sails falling off a cliff and his behavior. And once he saw, felt the pressure, like he made this monumental choice to write the O.J. simpson book, the O.J. simpson Murder Trial. He spent a year in the courtroom with Dominic Dunn and, and the Goldman family and got to know them and felt just such empathy for them and then decided when he got home, I can't write the book. Now granted, he had a 1.7 million dollar contract to write two books, O.J. simpson and the book of his choosing. This was after Janet Malcolm had written the Journalist and the Murderer and basically took him to task and said, hey, he's the problem in journalism. And then he wrote this Ted Kennedy biography. Of course he was paid handsomely. He got crushed for it because he was accused of a lot of things that he did and didn't do. But he still had a chance with the O.J. simpson book and gave that back and wrote a book about Italian soccer and went off the cliff. And then he could never recover in publishing. They said, look, you are, we can't deal with you, we can't handle you. So it just was, it was, he lived it at the highest level, okay, so he was playing this game at the highest level and managed to burn these bridges and sort of, I mean, sadly he, he was, it wasn't so much publishing that took him down. It was kind of his own behavior and his own choices. And so he was able to rise from the ashes before when publishing was, when books were bigger. But he kind of ran out of time and ran out of chances because it continued to make tough bad choices and sort of, he had self control problems. He would send emails to publisher, to his editors and publicists, but he would cc everybody and like this is 40 people would get an email from him raging about the COVID of the book or whatever. And so he became like this sort of pariah in publishing and he was just, no one wanted to deal with him.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

And yet you decide to go into this as well.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

You know, I'm an idiot, you know, but the thing is I, I'm passionate about it. I used to be passionate about politics growing up, so I went all in on that. And then I was in grad school for public policy at age 30 and I'm writing a novel, you know, so I'm convinced. Wow, this is coming so easy. Well, I'll just do this For a living. I love this and it's all I want to do and it's coming so easy. So this, this must be an easy path. Like you just do what you want, write what you want and then get a deal. I was, I was, I was loving writing, but I was terrible at first. You know, I didn't know what I was doing. Seven years later, you know, it works out with a lot of lean years because that's the tricky part. Dad was really, he was a gambler. So all this money he made, he lost. He lost it in 2002, 2001. He lost millions. He gave it all of these hedge fund guys, these sketchy, the Sketchy Markman. You look him up, Google Markman. And he put all this money in this fund and was kind of doped out from benzos and just let it all go. And he, he was so. It wasn't like I was sitting there like, oh man, I got my trust fund. It was like I'm eating tuna from a can. I'm living in this apartment that's like this little tiny studio at an IKEA table that I put together and I'm just like tapping away asking my girlfriend if she can send me a thousand bucks to pay the rent because I'm. My part time job isn't cutting it and I owe student loan debt. But God damn, I'm so glad I did. Was like, I, I've written three books that I'm really proud of that are the exact books I wanted to write. They're the books I want to read. And I'm so into my new novel and I'm just like, and I have the most amazing son and the most amazing wife and I'm just like, I miss my dad terribly, but this is, this is, I wouldn't want it any other way. As an, you know, it, it may not read like it and damage people because you're like, wow, I can't believe some of this stuff actually happened. And yeah, my half brother is threatening to sue me for defamation and he sent a letter to the publisher and I don't know what's going to happen on October 21st when this publishes if there's going to be a lawsuit. My publisher already said don't worry about it. It's, it's groundless. But there's a lot of emotion in this thing and a lot of, a lot of feelings. But it's still a book that I'm proud of and wouldn't want any other way.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

That's amazing. Well, just to close Your dad, at one point was at a picnic table and a napkin started blowing away. And he was like, it's all blowing away. It's all going away. And you all were like, dad, it's napkin. And then you come back to this line later, because in fact, it kind of was all blowing away. And that was an astute observation of the things that were slipping through his fingers. How do you put that whole notion to bed?

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

You know, he made progress. And something about in doing this memoir, and it's something that took me three years in writing this to learn, and I'm still coming to peace with it. But it may have all been blowing away in the moment for him. And it was. There were things he knew he couldn't control, but he found a way to do better than he ever had. And he didn't have anyone teaching him how to do better, to be loving when he needed to be, to step up for us, for his kids when he needed to. In so many ways, he was there and he was present and made us happy. And that is something that he figured out how to do on his own. And I'd like to think that that is something that I'm doing. I'm moving the ball forward a little bit. So it's not all blowing away. It's just sort of, I don't know, kind of propelling us forward. And it's not so bleak and uncontrollable and. And it's not just left to chance. We actually have some agency and in what we do and how we do it. And it just takes a little bit of reflection and takes a little bit of stepping back and have a little humility and understand, yeah, I'm flawed. We're all damaged people. But, you know, in a way, we're kind of like, that's ordinary. So, you know, this could easily be called ordinary people.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

But let's take it, you know, where.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

It'S damage is ordinary. And the key is what you do to move forward a little bit, to do a little bit better, if not a lot better for your kids. And that's what my father did, you know, he actually did that in the end.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

So amazing. Well, I really enjoyed your book and this conversation and the deep dive into these relationships, which I feel like so many people can get a lot out of when they examine their own relationships with. With their parents, their kids, how everything is interrelated, things they may regret, but yet how we find more meaning in what we do every day. So, anyway, I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Thank you so much, Zibby. Really appreciate it.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you.

[Joe McGinnis Jr.]

Thank you.

[Cindy (Interviewer)]

Okay, take care. Bye Bye.

[Unidentified Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

Bye.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby formerly Moms don't have time to read, but if you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibyohans and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

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[Unidentified Female Speaker (possibly a co-host or guest)]

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