Zibby Owens (3:47)

Welcome, Jordan. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibby to talk about Moms Like Us, a novel. Congratulations.

Jordan Roeder (3:54)

Thank you so much, Zibby. I'm so happy to be here.

Zibby Owens (3:58)

Well, I sort of inhaled this book right when it first arrived, so forgive me if I mess up anybody's names with this full cast of characters. I feel like I watched a little sitcom and not sitcom, but like a limited series or something in my head about like this whole community. So thank you for that. I got a lot of entertainment out of it and we'll never look at, you know, the parking lot at the grocery store in quite the same way again. So thanks.

Jordan Roeder (4:22)

At Trader Joe's. Yeah.

Zibby Owens (4:23)

At Trader Joe's. Yeah. Yeah, we have a Trader Joe's right by my kid's school. And now I'm like, huh, what are moms doing around there?

Jordan Roeder (4:30)

Yeah. What's really happening there in the minivans when they're rocking? I don't know.

Zibby Owens (4:35)

Okay, talk about what is your book about?

Jordan Roeder (4:38)

So. Well, the book starts with a murder, as any good satire does. So when someone ends up dead at this private school's annual glamping trip in Santa Barbara, we go back through the school year and we follow these four Los Angeles private school moms who really would do anything to protect their kids and their secrets. And we kind of, you know, are trying to figure out throughout the book who died, how did they die. And everyone kind of has a motive. So it's got got a little bit of that, you know, big little lies vibe and also Glass onion a little bit. I hope those were, those were the goals. And when you said, you know, that it felt like A TV show. That's really great to hear because I'm a TV writer.

Zibby Owens (5:24)

That's right.

Jordan Roeder (5:26)

And a feature writer. And so I really wrote it with the intention of it being a show. And so I'm really happy that it read like a show, because that's important.

Zibby Owens (5:38)

Why didn't you write it as a show?

Jordan Roeder (5:40)

Well, I wrote it during the writer's strike, and so. And I had actually started writing it before that. I had a really frustrating back to school night when my daughter was in sixth grade and was one of those back to school nights that I just left feeling really, like, useless as a mother and like. Like, and frustrated with the. The school and frustrated with the administration and feeling like I wasn't doing enough. And so I started writing it that next morning. And this was four years ago. And then. And then I shelved it. It was like therapy, you know, And I hadn't written a novel in 15 years, so I'd been writing for TV and film. So then I. Then it was the writer's strike, and my. My book agent, who I stayed friends with, was like, hey, great time to write a book. And I happened to be in Santa Barbara on the school glamping trip at that time. So it all. That's kind of how it all happened.

Zibby Owens (6:43)

Interesting. Okay, so who did you want to be murdered?

Jordan Roeder (6:50)

Sadly, there are. There. There are a lot of people that I. I was frustrated with. I don't know that I want anybody murdered. I'll just say that.

Zibby Owens (7:01)

Okay.

Jordan Roeder (7:01)

I will also say that we share an editor.

Zibby Owens (7:05)

Yes.

Jordan Roeder (7:05)

And I wanted to call the book Milk Mothers I'd like to Kill. And Carmen was like, that's adorable. No, she was like, definitely not. And. And I was like, but it's not like they want to. It's not Mothers I'd like to actually Kill. It's like, I want to kill her. Like, you know, it's like I want to. I'm frustrated. Like, I'm. You know, and. And. But, yeah, she was not having that.

Zibby Owens (7:34)

Okay. Well, I like this title, Moms Like Us. That's because, you know, everybody feels related to that. You know, Sarah Harmon has this book out Aggressive.

Jordan Roeder (7:44)

The other one.

Zibby Owens (7:45)

Yeah. There's this book that just came out, all the other mothers Hate Me or something like that. Right. It's sort of in the same, like, this, like, inner world of competitive moms and the dance that so many people do and exposing that thing.

Jordan Roeder (8:00)

Well, I also think that there's really, like, there's this moment in time that there's. There's Two things going on. It's like this, you know, so much truth telling about what it's like, really like all these memoirs, the Mother lode, the tell is coming out and getting. So, you know, I'm so excited to read. I haven't read it, but I've read about it. And you know, with all fours, it's like this. It's like I feel. And you talked about this in your podcast with your most anticipated books when you first started talking about that, and you're like, why do I. I keep gravitating toward these, you know, perimenopause, menopause, you know, women talking about what it's really like, you know, this, like, the radical truth telling of what it is like to be, you know, a woman, a mom, you know, working, not working, expectations, juggling it all. And, and it's like I feel like we're in this moment now where it's okay to say, like, you know, to say your true feelings without being judged for it necessarily. And that was really my goal in writing. This was like. Because I have, honestly, I have a lot of, like, awful thoughts, and it doesn't mean that, like, I actually am ever gonna say those out loud, but when I read things about women who share some of those thoughts, I feel less alone. So. And I'm like, oh, I'm not like a terrible person. I just had this thought and, you know, kind of like a ticker, it went past and it's okay. It doesn't necessarily make me a bad person.

Zibby Owens (9:45)

But, Jordan, what if you are a bad person?

Jordan Roeder (9:48)

You know what I could be.

Zibby Owens (9:53)

You're just surrounding yourself with other bad people to make yourself feel better. Maybe there's that.

Jordan Roeder (9:58)

That could be it. That could be it. And by the way, that's a great idea. But, you know, so, so when I was writing this, like, my, My thing was, like, especially for the women who I was writing about, who really, like, annoyed me, and I was. And I was frustrated by. I wanted to get into their head and I wanted to understand why they might be behaving the way they were behaving and find some sort of, like, humanity and something that I could like about them. And, and, and hopefully I found that hopefully, you know, all the women aren't, you know, there's something to like and something human about all of them. That was kind of the goal. But I also wanted to take some of the terrible thoughts that I've had and amplify them, like, by 30 and then, you know, and, and, and kind of see where that took me and, and it was very.

Zibby Owens (10:57)

It turns out it took you into a lesbian relationship with the headmaster.

Jordan Roeder (11:01)

That's right.

Zibby Owens (11:02)

Should we maybe explore this a little bit?

Jordan Roeder (11:05)

Well, it's funny, I was talking to my friends, Jessica Dell, who are two women who were married, and I was talking to them a lot about. Because I really wanted Millie's first experience kissing, you know, Eva, to feel real. And I have not kissed a woman. And so we had like these very, very in depth conversations and it was, it was really great. But it was so funny because Jessica looked at me at some point in our conversation. She's like, are you lesbian? Maybe. She's like, maybe you are interested. And I was like, I mean, I'm interested, I'm writing about it. But it was like, yeah, it was, it was, it was great to, to like really have that conversation with them.

Zibby Owens (11:50)

And I learned a lot, so it seemed very authentic. But what do I think? But not to, not to the. Not to. What's the word? Not to exclude regular romps because you have plenty of those as well.

Jordan Roeder (12:05)

Oh my God, so many of those. You know, I, My, my. So my daughter is dyslexic and she does like, she's an audible listener, audible learner. So she was like. And she doesn't love reading because she had such a hard time getting into it, which was a little bit like heartbreaking for me. But at first. But now it's actually great because we read like a lot of her books for school together and like we read Kamari Row and like, it's been so, so fun. But she was asking if she could read it and I was like, I don't know if that's the best idea, I think. And I think it's going to be a little too cringy. I think she, she won't get very far.

Zibby Owens (12:57)

No. So that's the good news.

Jordan Roeder (12:59)

Yeah, that is the good news. And my son has no interest. He's 12. And he's like, nah. Yeah, yeah.

Zibby Owens (13:08)

But what do you think? Like moms in your community, right, because you do poke fun at like the whole school and all the different sort of mom. Mom archetypes, if you will, different ways. And of course, every population has people who skew one way or the other, you know, into some of the characteristics that you and your characters sort of imbue. So I don't know, is there anyone you're particularly afraid of seeing at drop off having read this book?

Jordan Roeder (13:34)

Like, oh, yeah. Yes. Well, not a drop off, because especially, like, you know, my, the School I was at when I started writing it, I'm no longer at. And I actually really loved that school. I have nothing like, you know, and the school it's based on is a thousand, not 1000%, but not that school. It was actually based on another school that my kids didn't go to. But some of the. But the experiences and certainly the people was inspired by my experience there. But I did say to Carmen, when we. When I agreed to, you know, publish this and we were moving forward with it, I was like, it. It can't be published until my son gets into seventh grade.

Zibby Owens (14:21)

That's so.

Jordan Roeder (14:21)

Because I just don't. I don't want. I had such a terrible experience getting my daughter in. And this book was so born out of the trauma of that experience and, like, going through that experience that I was like, that's why it's coming out in May versus March.

Zibby Owens (14:43)

That is so funny. Speaking of Carmen, by the way, I've been changing my next book a lot and I read your book and I was like, oh, maybe I could try multiple points of view, right? That would make this process go faster. I'll just keep trying.

Jordan Roeder (14:57)

And so did you try it?

Zibby Owens (14:59)

So I pitched this idea to her and she was like, you don't want to try that. No, no, no, no. Don't. Don't even go there. And I was like, okay, fine. But I appreciated yours. I appreciate it because it's essentially like four stories like, or like, you know, like, you're like, it has to. And all has to come together. And it actually is quite complicated.

Jordan Roeder (15:19)

But, you know, it's. When I started writing it, I didn't know how it would all, you know, like, I started writing it really, like, just as, like these individual kind of stories. And then, and then I weaved them together as time went on and I kind of, you know, I kind of figured it out. And one of this. One of the storylines which, like, talk about, like, being stressed out about, you know, seeing somebody at drop off or carpool in la. Carpool is there. There was. The whole tennis club storyline did come from, like, a friend of mine who I actually love, but who had an experience with the tennis club. And that was like the light bulb moment because actually there was a time with Ronit was. I don't know if you ever worked with Ronit Wagman. She was, yes, yes, she's wonderful. So she and Carmen and I were on a zoom together. And it was like right after my first draft and they actually wanted me to get rid of one of the, the points of view because she wasn't clear enough. And it was funny once I, I kind of found that that thing for her, the, you know, the tennis club was part of it and it connected her to Heather. And, you know, that was like the key for me. And it was just one moment of, you know, an experience with a friend who had a hard time getting into the tennis club. And it was this, it unlocked a whole character for me. So it's like, that's the good thing about writing. What you know is like every time you walk down the street, you know, you get inspiration or you, you know, you, you, you get some kind of, like, idea, which is great because I don't go very far. I work from home. My kids like, you know, go to school nearby. Like, I kind of, you know, stay in my lane. So it's, that's good.

Zibby Owens (17:23)

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Zibby Owens (20:09)

So take me back to how you became a writer. To begin with, what happened where you grew up? Give me the quick life story.

Jordan Roeder (20:18)

Yeah. New York City, mean streets, the Upper east side, very tough. Went to Dalton, went to Brown. Not well educated at all. And then I wanted to be. So I did sketch comedy in college. I was always, and I did stand up and then I went to New York for two years, which was like a lost two years. I was so depressed and like, couldn't find myself. I was trying to act, I couldn't like, I, and then I moved out to la and I had always wanted to live in California. I don't like bad weather. I, you know, I, I just, like, I, I always say, like, I never really felt myself in New York, even though I lived there for the first 25 years of my life. And then I moved out here and I made a whole community and life for myself. And I've been here for about 25 years. But I came out here to be an actress and, and to do some stand up and sketch comedy. And you know, back then it was a little bit different. But, you know, I was told I was very funny but that I was not pretty and thin enough to be the leading lady and I was not fat and ugly enough to be the quirky best friend. And that's all those were, that's all there was then in, you know, 1999, 2000, which doesn't seem that long ago, but in the grand scheme of things, when you look at, you know, who's doing comedy now and who's, you know, it just, I feel like there's a little more room for other types of women to be funny and successful. And it just, it, and I couldn't handle it. Like, I just didn't have a thick enough skin. So I got into, so I kept doing Groundlings at night and I went into production and development for years. And then I met an agent at a party. I didn't know, he was an agent, he's a book agent, Richard Abate. And I was telling him about my experiences as an assistant and he was like, you should write a young adult novel about it. And I was like, okay. And we sold that off of 50 pages. And that was how I got into writing young adult fiction. And then I wrote another book called Camp Rules, which I then adapted into a feature for Paramount. And that's how I got into feature writing. And then so I wrote features for a bunch of years and then I sold my first TV thing and then I started staffing in tv and then I started. So I write hour long, like dramedies and I write comedies for television and I write movies that never get made and also television pilots that never get made. But, and then I, you know, luck. Sometimes I get lucky enough to get stopped on a show and I actually get to make things. And that's really cool. I wrote on this freeform show right before the strike called the Watchful Eye, which I don't think a lot of people saw, but it was so fun. I went to Vancouver, produced my episode. It was, it was awesome.

Zibby Owens (23:06)

That is so cool.

Jordan Roeder (23:07)

So, and now hopefully I'll adapt Moms Like Us. And I have a couple other things, but the novel writing is a lot of work. I don't know how you do it with all the other things that you're juggling.

Zibby Owens (23:20)

Yeah, not well, apparently. I just like threw out my last draft, so. Yeah, Yeah, I was like, oh, I don't like this at all. Like, this is. No, anyway, yeah, I think most, I mean, unless you are a full time novel writer, which not many people are, like, you have to find time on the fringes of life, right between teaching or your job or your kids or whatever. The days of, I don't know, being in a cabin every day and just writing. I mean, there are some people who have had enough success that I've interviewed who can do that now, but nobody starts out that way usually, so we all just fit it in.

Jordan Roeder (24:00)

Well. I also feel like I'm a bit, you know how they say, like there's like method writers and the method actors. I'm kind of like a method writer where I feel like, you know, I, I, I, I have to kind of go a bit dark if I'm going dark. Like I have to get into those, like, that kind of mindset. So it's, it's very hard. Like if I'm planning to be working all day from home and then I have a kid home sick who's like, can you make me a grilled cheese? And I'm like, you know, writing a sex scene in, you know, a minivan. Woman cheating on her husband in Trader Joe's. Like, it's really hard to go to those places when you're also momming. It's. It's. At least. It's hard for me. And so it was really, like, finding those moments and just saying, like, kids, if you need anything, like, if they're at school, you have to call your father. Like, you know, you. I can't. I can't have, like. And I don't know if you get these texts from your kid. Kids. I get a text that's like, capital letters mom.

Zibby Owens (25:09)

Yes.

Jordan Roeder (25:10)

And that's it. And you're like, what is happening? Like, what? And then it's like, I got a. You know, a B plus. Okay, Lose my number. Like, come on. This is crazy. I can't. I can't do this.

Zibby Owens (25:26)

I get a lot of texts that just say, answer period. And I'm like, stop yelling at me. Like, I didn't hear it. My ringer was off. What's going on? Are you okay?

Jordan Roeder (25:37)

Yeah. Yeah, it's.

Zibby Owens (25:38)

And then I have. The other day, I was really focusing and trying hard to, like, write something. Not that I. And usually I try to take off, you know, close out of my text or whatever, but I didn't. And, like, my mom was like, I can't figure out this form. Could you just help me with this form? What do I put for these two blocks of text? And I was like, I don't know. No one's ever asked me that before. Just make something up or leave it blank. And then I try to go back, and then she's like, that's not working. What if I do this? And I kept going back five times, and finally I just leaned back, and I was like, you know what?

Jordan Roeder (26:13)

I can't do this. I can't do this. No, the best is when my parents forget that I'm on their text chain. So it's like, make sure to get the yogurt with the. You know, the vanilla and not the thing. And then it's like, did you record Grey's Anatomy? You know, and it's like, guys, I'm on this text chain. It's like, okay, sorry. Anyway, so make sure to fill up the car. And I'm like, guys, I'm on the. Like, please, again, lose my number. Like, everyone, just lose my number.

Zibby Owens (26:49)

That could be the title of your next book. I was just thinking you should totally do that. That should be your like. But not. Not fiction. Just, like, you know, make it my memoir. Like, essays. Like, funny essays about, you know, hashtag mom life or whatever.

Jordan Roeder (27:03)

I love. All right, well, Zigbee Publishing.

Zibby Owens (27:06)

Okay. I heard you. Can't punch you from Carmen, you know.

Jordan Roeder (27:10)

Yeah, I know. I know that Carmen wants to do a bunch of short stories called Lose My Number, but I love it. I'm like, this is. You just. Yeah.

Zibby Owens (27:20)

It could be fun to go off.

Jordan Roeder (27:21)

And write after this.

Zibby Owens (27:22)

Yeah, right. I love it. Everybody could relate, I am sure.

Jordan Roeder (27:27)

Yeah.

Zibby Owens (27:28)

Okay. So what are you working on? Aside from this new book that we came up with? Are you working?

Jordan Roeder (27:31)

So aside from this new book we just came up with, so I'm actually pitching the adaptation of another book right now. It's called Stone Cold Fox. That came out a couple of years ago.

BetterHelp (27:42)

Yeah.

Zibby Owens (27:42)

Yeah.

Jordan Roeder (27:42)

And so I'm working on that with Julie Pleck's company. She's a big TV writer, director. I actually worked with her a million years ago when I was an assistant to Kevin Williamson, which is like a funny kind of coming around. So I am pitching that out to buyers. And we just are sending moms like us out to producers now. And I actually work with my husband on a couple things, producing. So we have a couple projects that we're pitching with other people writing. My grandparents always worked together. They worked together, and they were in the garment industry, and I. They had the greatest relationship. So, you know, kind of like the way you and Kyle sometimes do, you know, collaborate on things. I think it's. It's. It's both, like, wonderful and also kind of drives me nuts sometimes to work with my husband. It's a lot of, like, lack of separation between church and state. But, you know, most of the time, it's. It's really wonderful. And we kind of. We really compliment each other because I'm more the creative. And he's a real, you know, producer of many years, so. And he's working with your brother.

Zibby Owens (28:52)

Oh, no way.

Jordan Roeder (28:53)

Yeah.

Zibby Owens (28:54)

Oh, my gosh. You must have. I think. I think you told me that, but I totally forgot because he has this.

Jordan Roeder (28:59)

Amazing project with Teddy, and so they're, like, trying to get talent and.

Zibby Owens (29:05)

Oh, that's so great.

Jordan Roeder (29:06)

Yeah.

Zibby Owens (29:07)

Yeah.

Jordan Roeder (29:08)

So maybe sometime next time you're out here, we can all go out. Something like that.

Zibby Owens (29:14)

That'd be really fun.

Jordan Roeder (29:15)

I'd love it.

Jordan Roeder (29:16)

So that's kind of, you know. And then, I mean, I don't. I don't know if I'm going to write another book. Anytime soon. It was, you know, but who knows? I had a different ending for this book. And it's how I imagine the first season of the show ending. And I sent it to Carmen with, like, my first draft, and Carmen was like, you can't end the book this way. And I was like, but it's like, it's not brilliant, but it's like. It's like. And she's like, jordan, there's. I don't think there's going to be a sequel to this book. And I was like, but there's going to be a season two. And she's like, yeah, so you put that in the show. She's like, we can't. And the book on, like, a super duper cliffhanger. And I was like, okay. So anyway, that was it. But so Carmen nixed the milk title and the ending. And I have to say, I think she was right about both.

Zibby Owens (30:19)

She's usually right about most stuff.

Jordan Roeder (30:21)

Yes. Yes. She's coming to the boot party.

Zibby Owens (30:25)

Oh, yay.

Jordan Roeder (30:26)

Yeah. Yeah. I can't wait.

Zibby Owens (30:29)

Wow.

Jordan Roeder (30:30)

Amazing.

Zibby Owens (30:30)

Okay, well, Jordan, first of all, also, these have to. This cover should be, like, tennis bags. Are you making little tennis bags?

Jordan Roeder (30:38)

You know, I should. Can I take. Can I take a picture of you holding it so I can put it on? Hold on. Okay. I want to. You know this because I'm. I saw you at Shine Away. I'm just getting used to, like, social media and all the.

Zibby Owens (30:51)

No worries, so.

Jordan Roeder (30:53)

And you're the master, so. Okay.

Zibby Owens (30:55)

Hardly, but cute.

Jordan Roeder (30:56)

Okay. Hopefully I don't have too many things open on my desktop. You know, whatever. But this is such a treat. I've been looking forward to this. I was a little nervous.

Zibby Owens (31:06)

Oh, come on, please.

Jordan Roeder (31:07)

Do you remember when I first met you at China?

Zibby Owens (31:10)

Of course.

Jordan Roeder (31:11)

But that I was in the middle of having, like, a hot flash. Hot flash.

Zibby Owens (31:15)

Yes.

Jordan Roeder (31:15)

And it was like broadcast news.

Zibby Owens (31:18)

I couldn't tell you. Knew you felt bad. I could not tell you. You just can' really tell. Sweet.

Jordan Roeder (31:24)

You were so sweet and sympathetic because I was like, I had sweat dripping off my nose.

Zibby Owens (31:29)

You didn't.

Jordan Roeder (31:30)

I did. And, like, I went to the bathroom after, and, like, I had to, like, peel my clothes up. Like, it was. I had such a hot. Oh, my God. It was crazy. I'm on estrogen patches now, so we're all good.

Zibby Owens (31:43)

Okay, great. So next time, I will not bring the squeegees and. All right, perfect.

Jordan Roeder (31:50)

This was such a treat.

Zibby Owens (31:51)

Thank you. Thank you.

Jordan Roeder (31:52)

Thank you for all your support. I really appreciate it.

Zibby Owens (31:55)

I hope to see you in person soon. Okay?

Jordan Roeder (31:56)

Definitely.

Zibby Owens (31:57)

Okay, bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram ibyowens and spread the word.

Jordan Roeder (32:11)

Thanks so much.

Zibby Owens (32:12)

Oh, and buy the books.

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