Zibby Owens (1:52)

You really want to read.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (1:53)

Kimberly Ford, best selling author, one time professor and PhD in literature, offers up entertaining, often funny talks that will leave you feeling inspired and a little smarter. She digs right into everything from J.D. salinger to Miranda July, from Demon Copperhead to Madame Bovary, from Pride and Prejudice to Lessons in Chemistry. The talks on individual books are the heart of the podcast, but enriched read segments to tackle ideas like unreliable narrators.

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While old favorite talks treat you to a fresh adult look at childhood gems.

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Like Harriet the Spy and Are you there God?

Zibby Owens (2:26)

It's me, Margaret.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (2:27)

Want to get the most out of what you read and be entertained along the way?

Zibby Owens (2:31)

The Fox page is for you. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (2:41)

Moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's.

Zibby Owens (2:45)

Latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (2:49)

And creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster. I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram Ibioens Laura Dickerman is the author of Hot Desk, a novel. Laura has an MA in Fiction from NYU and an MA in English from Middlebury College's Breadloaf School of English. She has taught high school English at the Hopkins School, the Collegiate School, and Germantown Friends. She was an intern at the Paris Review many, many years ago. At her lowest point, she spent a month temping for her youngest brother who was critical of her photocopying skills. She has been a book club leader, tutor, and recipient of an NEH grant. She lives in Atlanta with her husband. They have two grown daughters. Hot Desk is her first novel. Welcome Laura. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about Haunt, a novel. Congratulations.

Laura Dickerman (4:00)

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. It's such an amazing platform that you have.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (4:05)

Oh, thank you. Well, if there's anybody who knows about publishing, it is you and your characters in this book and everything else. So. All right, tell listeners what the book is about.

Laura Dickerman (4:15)

The book is about two young editors. They're ambitious and they are at rival publishing imprints, but they work under the same publishing umbrella, so they're forced to share a hot desk, which if you don't know, is when people are used the same desk but on different days. And so they alternate different days of the week at the same desk. Neither of them likes it. And so the book alternates chapters between them. And they are, they start out sort of, I don't know, in a passive aggressive arguments about different things on the desk. But everything heats up when they become rivals for a unpublished manuscript that a literary lion has left behind in his estate without an agent. So they're in competition to win that estate. And then they discover in the unpublished manuscript secrets that surprisingly involve Rebecca, who's one of the main characters, her mother, Jane. And so the book has a dual timeline. It goes back to Manhattan in the early 1980s and Jane, Rebecca's mother, is an intern at this at a fabulous literary magazine that I call the East River Review. And so the book then picks up Jane's voice as well, and hijinks ensue.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (5:31)

Well, it's so clever. And even if the book was about sort of just a day in the life of the publishing company, I would have laughed. Like, the way you. You're such a good observer in this, like, funny, somewhat snarky, but in a good way way. Like, you just observe everything, even just how you pick apart, like, what people might be doing on a Zoom with their camera off. I mean, it's so simple, but it's just. You just say it in a funnier way than anybody else. So I just got a kick out of the whole thing.

Laura Dickerman (6:02)

Yeah, it's funny because for me, I hadn't worked in an actual real office since, like, the 90s, when I was a, you know, an English teacher at a school that was founded in, like, 1628. So, I mean, my office was, you know, you're on the phone. And it was a very different world. But luckily, my brother works in publishing, and so he was the one that came up with the idea. He called me one day and he's like, listen, you know, your kids have left the house. You need to write a book. This is your assignment. And he gave me this assignment. He's like, we just had a call at work about this hot desking, and I didn't know what that was. And he explained it. He was. He explained the concept, and he was like, you should write a novel about two young editors who are forced to share a desk and fall in love. And immediately I was like, I. All the characters came to me. Rebecca and Ben came to me, and I had the whole book right there, and it was really fun. And he was my advisor about. About things. And I was like, well, what are. You know, I was like, first you get on the phone. He's like, no, nobody gets on the phone. So he was very helpful to me. And he said. I said, so what funny things happen on Zoom calls. And of course, during the pandemic, I was on Zoom. I knew all about certain things, but, you know, he told me. He was like, oh, people's cats are on Zoom. I was like, people's cats? Like, during work. He's like, yeah. So that was. We were. We were good collaborators at the beginning there, especially for. For sort of office things. But I do think, you know, I mean, if, you know, people, you know what happens in offices, I just needed a little bit of update about, like, phone pods and things like that.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (7:39)

I mean, I work in an office. I didn't know about a hotel, hot desks, and some of the things. So thank you for that. Wait, that's. So tell me about you and your brother and your. Did you always want to be an author? Like, how did he know to even come to you with this idea? And why did he not try to do it?

Laura Dickerman (7:58)

Good idea. Yeah, good idea.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (7:59)

How does your family feel about the whole thing?

Laura Dickerman (8:01)

Well, he. Colin and I, I have two brothers. They're both great. Colin is in publishing, and he's younger than I am. He's about six years younger. And so for a short time, we were kind of on the same trajectory. We both, you know, were interested in English and then moved to New York City. We both were interns six years. Yeah. I don't know how many years apart at the Paris Review. Very, very early on. And I did a little work in publishing, and then I became a high school English teacher. And so then I was one of those things where I was like, I was a writer who then became a teacher, and then I was a teacher who wrote. Then I was just a teacher, then I was a mom. And then just life happened. And I always, in the back of my mind was like, you know, I wrote poems once in a while. I have a couple. I have a YA novel in a drawer. You know, I kind of did a little bit about it, but I sort of let go of it. And Colin, my brother, about 20 years ago, he called me up when my. When my children were really little. And he said, I have an assignment for you. He said, ya supernatural books are really big. You should write a novel about a boy who falls in love with a ghost. And I guess, like, I just really. Maybe as an English teacher or whatever, I love an assignment. And like, that one sentence, I was like, yes, the whole book came to me. So I wrote this whole book and I got an agent. I was like, oh, I'm going to be the next Stephenie Meyer. And that book didn't sell. So I was like, oh, okay. 20 years later, kids have left the house. Colin calls me up, gives me the one sentence assignment. And it just, you know, I think it was. I think I really. Again, I love the idea of getting the assignment. And also I feel as though writing this book and starting out with this idea that it was going to be this really fun and funny and kind of romantic workplace satire. It really freed me up from the kind of, you know, I had been to graduate school in fiction, graduate school in English with a concentration in writing. So I had a very particular kind of writing that I thought that I was supposed to be doing. It was very literary and, and I think being a little bit of a perfectionist kind of stopped me from doing as much writing as I, as I think I wanted to. And then, you know, just life, family, all of that. So I, you know, I, I think this really freed me up. It just, it just came very quickly, very easily. It was so fun to write. And then of course, being me and having the interest that I had, I started to sort of develop this dual timeline and these older characters and they became more interesting to me, these women. I was like, well, maybe I don't, maybe I haven't experienced publishing workplace now, but I, I have experienced a little bit of publishing workplace in the early 1980s. So I sort of drew on that and with my memories and then my imagination and so I sort of, I did those two things together and it just, it was great and I was really lucky and everything happened really quickly and it feels like it happened over overnight, but of course it did. It was, it's been a long time coming as well.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (11:06)

That's how you know you're doing the right project when it's easy.

Laura Dickerman (11:09)

That's exactly what it felt like to me because writing had always been, you know, extremely hard for me in the, in the buildup to it. Right. Once I was doing it, there was nothing that felt as amazing as that. In the process of it afterwards, I felt pro, you know, I was happy. But it was that. I feel like there's just years would be of this kind of torture of, you should write, you should write, you should write. But this, you're right. Everything felt really fun and easy about this book.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (11:40)

So that's amazing.

Zibby Owens (11:42)

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Podcast Host/Interviewer (16:44)

And tell me about how much of your own experience from the Paris Review came into the East End. East End East River Review.

Laura Dickerman (16:52)

Yeah, the East River Review. It's so funny because I just was pitching an article to airmail. Sure, if they'll end up with it or not. But it was sort of interesting about my experience at the Parish review again, almost 40 years ago. So it is incredible to me what I remember and what I have no memory of whatsoever. And things you would think that I remember. Like, I know George Plimpton took us out to lunch, the interns, you know, I don't have a whole lot of memory about that, but I, you know, I remember really clearly sitting on, you know, an armchair and looking out the window at the east river because the Parish Review offices were in the bottom of the townhouse that he had on the east side. And you would go upstairs into his private apartment and read through slush piles and manuscripts. And he was just a charming presence everywhere. So I just, you know, I started with it just kind of came to Me, I started writing about that and again, I used my imagination and I had an amazing time there. None of the drama that happened in my book happened. George was a perfect. And also, you know, I just. I wasn't really thinking of him. I was thinking of the situation. But the character of. There's a character in my book called the lion who sort of became to me this A kind of composite character of all these sort of terrible literary men that were charming and brilliant and problematic, as they say. And I was really interested in that, you know, how the kind of power and privilege that those men had, the kind of men that were really revered at the time when I worked at the Paris Review. So I was very interested in that. So I just created this character that really had nothing to do with George Plimpton. Let me say that publicly. Yeah. But I definitely. That kind of glamorous. You know, everyone's smoking and typewriting typewriters and all of that. I think I deliberately set those scenes in the book a little couple years earlier than I was there because I didn't want. When I was there, we were sort of doing floppy disk work and things like that, but I wanted to make it a little more clear cut. There were no, you know, there were no computers, there was typewriters, that kind of thing. So I wanted to set it a little earlier.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (19:16)

So when you were gathering your research from Colin and trying to figure out, like, how to really sculpt the setting and the narrative and the discourse about publishing. Because so much is in here. I mean, like, it's so insider.

Zibby Owens (19:31)

Yeah.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (19:31)

In such a good. In all the best ways that I'm, like, shocked that you yourself were not in a publishing house. But when you. What were you most surprised about when he told you or when you were like, oh, I've got to put this in. Like, what stood out to you? What. What changed the most? Like, aside from phones, you know.

Laura Dickerman (19:53)

Yeah, the phone thing. I mean, honestly, I think it's funny because of. Because of the pandemic, I think, in that, you know, I was on a zoom call every week with my family, you know, my parents with the whole, you know, you see up their chins and all that. So I think that I sort of had. Whereas I'm not a particularly person that's very comfortable, like tech and computers and things like that, but because of that, I have this. I knew what it was like to be on zooms. Right. And so workplace also really changed because of that. So. Because I think because of the pandemic, the idea of Hot desking came around. Like, how do we, you know, optimize space? How do we make, you know, save money? How do we have people at home and this and that? So I already kind of had this idea about what it was like to be on Zoom. And I knew what I was like on Zoom, like, you know, looking at my hair and, you know, that kind of thing. So I used a lot of that. I think that. I mean, honestly, I'll say this again. Cats. I was very surprised, but not even.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (20:57)

The Zoom piece, like, the publishing industry piece, and how you talk about submissions and, like, all the stuff in the meetings themselves and that, talk about this memoir and this and this manuscript and just the way that you created the world. Like, these are all the conversations and, like, presenting to sales and, like, this is all the stuff that actually happens and that anyone will see themselves in. So I don't know.

Laura Dickerman (21:22)

Again, I was extremely fortunate because Colin was the. He was the publishing advisor to Darren Starr's television pro show Younger. And I don't know if you've watched Younger, but it came out a while ago. But it was just released, I think, or came out on Netflix. So people are watching it and it's about an older woman who pretends to be young. Of course, it's Sutton Foster, and she looks like she's 20, but she goes into publishing. And so that was really fun to watch that. I mean, I think they were sort of like, yeah, publishing's still glamorous, but I'm not sure how glamorous it really is anymore. But it was that. So he was helpful to me in that, obviously, like, what happens at a pitch meeting. But then I just. I mean, a lot of it's just people, right? So I feel like I know about people. I had worked in publishing, I have friends in publishing, my brother, all of that. And it just. It just felt kind of organic from who the people were.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (22:17)

Yeah, I love that. When you thought about writing it, did you have other books in mind that you were like, oh, this will fit right in with this, this and this. Like, is there a genre that you're drawn to or authors that you were like, I want my book to be similar to so and so's, or this is the kind of thing that makes me laugh.

Laura Dickerman (22:35)

You know, it's funny because again, there was that. I think that when I wrote it, particularly when I was first start writing, I really tried not to think about because I think that had tripped me up in the past. When you start to write and you. And you think, oh, Someone else did this better. Someone else before me. Someone else did this exact story. And I think that can be very crippling, at least for me. It was difficult for me to get out from under that idea that I had to do it perfectly or I had to do it differently. And so with this idea, I just. I really tried not to think about anything or anyone who could have done it or anything. Just write my own version, my own. My own voice, my own feeling about it. And then, as I said, I became very interested in. I love to. I read all the time. I. I read high, I read low, I read everything, you know, So I. I felt as though later, this idea of a mashup of genres was really interesting to me. Right. Because at first I think people were interested in like fitting this into a rom com genre, but it really isn't a rom com, Right. I don't. The characters, it is what's. It's a very, very slow burn, as they say. Right. So it's an enemies to lovers trope. It's a slow burn. But they don't even lay eyes on each other until 2/3 of the way through. And I'm sure that will make some people annoyed, but to me it was really important that they had very fully formed lives, work, lives, friends, family, and before they fell for each other. That felt important to me. And then I had all these other things kind of happening and that were important to me in the book as well. So it wasn't that genre. And it. So I was interested in that and in terms of books that are funny, I think the book is funny.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (24:21)

It is the book.

Laura Dickerman (24:22)

I enjoyed it.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (24:23)

It is so funny, it made me laugh.

Laura Dickerman (24:25)

So, I mean, I guess, I don't know, I think that the gold standard of funny books, I would say probably. Where'd you go, Bernadette? By Maria Semple is hilarious. Just recently, I think the Wedding People, Allison S. Scott that book, very. It's so good, just like, so funny. And all the little literary touches in that as well. I think the plot and the sequel are both really, really funny. Jean Hamp Corlett so, I mean, you know, if I may be so bold, I wish I would hope that, you know, my book was funny in that way. That's what I was thinking about, or hoping, hoping for the book.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (25:05)

So armed with all that, you know and have learned about publishing and from the characters in your book, now that you're taking a book out yourself as a debut, what insider knowledge do you have? How do you feel about the whole machinery behind publishing?

Laura Dickerman (25:20)

Well, I mean, I thought I knew a decent amount about publishing because, again, I've been in writing and books and English teacher and family, friends, like, in the industry. I really am surprised by just how many people are involved in. In getting a book out there. Right. So I think the way I leaned on, you know, the assistants and the. And the copy editors and the. The marketing and the publicity and the. You know, there are just so many moving parts to get a book out there. And I feel like I've been really fortunate. The gallery has been very, very supportive. They're excited about it. I think, you know, they're really. They've put a lot behind the book, which I. Which makes me feel extremely fortunate. But it's. It is a whole world out there. And of course, I'm a person that lives in indie bookstores and loves bookstores, but to realize just these people out there, I mean, you know, you know, better than I do. But people who own bookstores, who buy books, who. Who sell books, who hand sell books, who are just really committed to this world, I mean, it's very beautiful to see. Especially now, I feel as though, I guess that's so important to me in terms of people's humanity. Again, this is an English teacher and a writer speaking, but I really do think that we are better people for reading, particularly fiction. I'm gonna say it. And I just. To be reacquainted with or to sort of be on this side of that world and those people has been really beautiful and exciting. And I'm also. I mean, Look, I'm like 62 years old. This is the most exciting thing that's happened. I'm like, just, you know, I'm like, hey, all right. I'm just enjoying so much everything and really trying to really. Just trying to enjoy every moment of it. And every first is exciting to me, and I'm just trying to live in it.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (27:29)

Okay. You don't look 62, FYI. No, really? That's a shock. I thought you just, like. Like we're choosing the premature gray thing.

Laura Dickerman (27:38)

Oh, my gosh. My hair's been gray. It's been a little bit gray since college and.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (27:43)

See, I told you. Premature gray. I'm right.

Laura Dickerman (27:45)

Exactly. In my mind, I still have black hair with a couple streaks of gray. And sometimes I walk past, like, a shop window and I'm like, what is that? You know? But you gotta embrace it. I don't. I mean, I. When I was first thinking about, you know, writing things on a website and kind of this Idea of putting myself out there, all of that, that I was like, well, I was, I was googling, you know, late bloomers, people who write late, you know, at the age of 37, so and so published her first. I was like, no, later, later. But I, I did discover that Laura Ingalls Wilder published Little House on the Prairie when she was 65. So yep, got in right under there.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (28:31)

So, well, you and Laura Ingalls Wilder. See, you'll just. And both have the Laura in your names it was meant to be. So now that you've done this one, what are you going to do next? Did Colin give you any more ideas or did you have some of your.

Laura Dickerman (28:45)

No, I. I feel like I. He would laugh. I, I feel as though I'm, you know, this, this unlocks something I think for me in terms of a voice that I feel really good about. And not to say it's going to be exactly the same voice, it won't. But I just feel like this idea of writing the kind of book I love to read, that's fun to read, that's fun to write. I feel like it did unlock a little bit. And I have a couple ideas in my head. One of them right now is taking some precedence over the others. And it's also kind of a mashup of a genre. I literally have two chapters, so I'm not getting too excited about it, but a lot of it's already in my head. I've taken a lot of notes. I have all the characters and this sort of idea. And it starts with a dead body, so there's a little mystery. Then it's also got. Because I love a romance, it's also got this sort of romantic trope of. I think they call it second chance love. When someone comes back to their sort of hometown and you know, the high school boyfriend they left behind. So I've got a couple of ideas about that. And so I. But right now I know Colin's like, you should be writing. My agent's like, you should be writing. But like I said, I'm just really enjoying all of the things that are going into the pre publication of the debut novel too. So I want to make sure that I have that.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (30:05)

Well, it sounds like you have all the wisdom you need to get through this experience.

Laura Dickerman (30:11)

That is one thing about being a crone with your.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (30:13)

No, you are not a crone.

Laura Dickerman (30:15)

I claiming crone. A crone is good. I love a crone. I think crone is a good thing. I'm excited to be a crone. I'm excited to. I have no, this is, like I said, I mean, this is just like a bonus dream come true for me, so. But yeah, no, I think we're going to reclaim Chrome.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (30:35)

I like it. Let's rebrand.

Laura Dickerman (30:37)

Exactly. You've got a couple decades to go, but I think you'll be happy to.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (30:42)

I don't have that much time to go. Not. I'm like a decade, but thank you. You know, a little more. Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you so much. I really was so entertained. I laughed so many times and, you know, you just never know, like, what you're gonna get. And I got just hours of entertainment, so there you go.

Laura Dickerman (31:03)

Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Podcast Host/Interviewer (31:06)

All right, well, congratulations. I will be rooting for you and thank you. Thank you. Okay, thanks. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Siby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram, Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

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