Leigh Bardugo and John Picacio, THE INVISIBLE PARADE

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Totally Booked with Zibby
Episode: Leigh Bardugo and John Picacio, THE INVISIBLE PARADE
Date: January 12, 2026
Host: Zibby Owens
Guests: Leigh Bardugo (author), John Picacio (illustrator)
Book Discussed: The Invisible Parade

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Zibby Owens hosts bestselling author Leigh Bardugo and acclaimed illustrator John Picacio to discuss their collaborative work, The Invisible Parade. The conversation traces the book’s origins, its unique approach to grief and memory, the synergy between words and art, and the deeply personal and cultural influences underpinning the project. Together, they explore how this genre-blending picture book resonates with both children and adults by confronting themes of death, remembrance, and finding joy in connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin of Collaboration

• First Meeting and Mutual Respect (04:52 – 07:23):

  • Bardugo recounts meeting Picacio for the first time at a George R. R. Martin fan party during WorldCon in Reno. She was just an unpublished fan, and Picacio was already well-known.
    • “He really treated me as a peer as opposed to a nobody, and that made a huge impression on me about the right way to behave as a person in the literary world and how much that kindness means.” — Leigh Bardugo (05:56)
  • Picacio highlights Bardugo’s “electric” presence and how their connection led to a sustained friendship.
    • “She was electric, and I just enjoyed… I was enjoying her more than my company that I had at the time, honestly.” — John Picacio (06:59)

• Genesis of The Invisible Parade (07:23 – 09:44):

  • The idea to collaborate arose years later. Picacio pitched Bardugo on doing “a story that’s like The Wizard of Oz in a graveyard.”
  • Bardugo admits initial wariness about joint projects, but the concept interested her, especially as Picacio envisioned a narrative that evolved in her hands.
  • The story began as a girl “trying to overcome the fear of death” and transformed into a tale about “how we process grief,” inspired by Bardugo’s own experiences with loss.
    • “When Leigh gets a hold of it… it becomes a story about how we process grief, which is far more Mexican… that came from Leigh.” — John Picacio (09:31)

Writing About Grief for Kids and Adults

• Crossover Audience and Purpose (11:56 – 13:28):

  • Bardugo emphasizes how stories “tell you what they want to be,” and The Invisible Parade naturally addresses both adults and children on processing loss.
  • She recalls her father’s passing and the daunting “silence” after initial condolences—a feeling that inspired the narrative.
    • “When somebody dies, there's all this noise…then all of a sudden, it goes so quiet. And so we started thinking about what that silence would mean for a kid…” — Leigh Bardugo (12:23)
  • The book aims to open a gentler, more adventurous conversation about grief, rather than a strictly philosophical or didactic one.

• Adventure and Emotional “Toolkit” (13:28 – 14:45):

  • Picacio reiterates the duo wrote a story not only for young readers, but also for themselves as adults grappling with family mortality.
  • He frames the book as a “toolkit” for processing the complexities of grief—something he wanted to offer to his own daughter.

Artistic Vision & Emotional Journey

• The Importance of Color and Design (18:09 – 20:57):

  • Picacio and Bardugo discuss how color palettes and visual symbolism trace the protagonist Kala’s emotional arc—from numbness (sepia tones) to catharsis (explosions of technicolor).
    • “If you strip away all that stuff and just look at the color palette…the story tells you Kala's emotional journey.” — John Picacio (19:38)
  • Bardugo describes how the book’s central “gatefold” illustration marks Kala’s transition from grief toward joy and reconnection.
    • “That was the anchor of the entire book…this was the moment of catharsis.” — Leigh Bardugo (21:00)

• Reimagining Iconography (18:16; 21:38 – 22:51):

  • The Four Horsemen in the story serve as non-traditional guides—blending Mexican cultural motifs with universal fears and lessons, serving multiple narrative layers for readers of all ages.
  • The intention was to reflect how children and adults can both face fears, not just of death but of loss and hunger, and how stories can aid in this.

• Personal and Cultural Resonance (22:51 – 24:52):

  • Bardugo shares how a friend invited her to a Dia de Muertos celebration amid her grief, introducing her to a different mode of remembrance.
    • “It was like she was throwing me a lifeline and inviting me into this space and a very different way of looking at death.” — Leigh Bardugo (23:16)
  • The story fuses personal experience with tradition, while simultaneously inviting all readers—regardless of heritage—into communal commemoration and shared humanity.

The Book’s Impact and Memorable Moments

• Reader Reactions & Universal Need (25:38 – 26:31):

  • Picacio describes a poignant response from a reader who purchased the book to honor their mother’s memory on the anniversary of her death:
    • “He says, ‘I'm crying, but I just wanted to let you know that this…was what I was saving this book for.’” — John Picacio (25:41)
  • Both creators note the dearth of stories that address grief honestly and lovingly, and The Invisible Parade fills this gap.

• Enduring Grief and the Stories We Tell (26:31 – 28:14):

  • Bardugo relates how grief is ongoing and unpredictable, and how the metaphor of sharing unfinished stories with departed loved ones lies at the book’s core.
    • “Grief is the dirty fighter…you think you've knocked it out…then all of a sudden, you're crying in a Panda Express parking lot.” — Leigh Bardugo (26:33)
  • Zibby and the guests swap moving anecdotes about the meals they would make for their lost loved ones, echoing the tradition of ofrendas and keeping memories alive through food.
    • “That is the cake that would bring him back from the beyond.” — Leigh Bardugo (fruitcake for her father, 28:24)
    • “Pork tamales, chili pequins…those were his jams.” — John Picacio (29:07)
    • “He was a meatloaf, mashed potatoes, root beer float kind of guy…” — Zibby Owens (29:49)

Closing Thoughts

• Future Collaborations (30:30 – 30:55):

  • Both creators express intent to work together again, though currently focusing on promoting The Invisible Parade and individual projects.

• The Power of Everyday Kindness (30:55 – 31:37):

  • Zibby highlights how their partnership began with a simple gesture of kindness and how such moments can yield lasting, meaningful creative connections.
    • “We all have those opportunities every day to be nice and generous…as soon as you open the door, like great things happen even ten years later.” — Zibby Owens (31:00)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “He really treated me as a peer as opposed to a nobody…that made a huge impression on me about the right way to behave as a person in the literary world...” — Leigh Bardugo (05:56)
• “I want to be with someone I laugh with. I want to be with someone I trust…and she was the one.” — John Picacio (07:23)
• “The story becomes more profoundly personal and culturally resonant…That came from Leigh.” — John Picacio (09:44)
• “When somebody dies, there's all this noise…then all of a sudden, it goes so quiet.” — Leigh Bardugo (12:23)
• “If you strip away all that stuff and just look at the color palette…the story tells you Kala's emotional journey.” — John Picacio (19:38)
• “It was like she was throwing me a lifeline and inviting me into this space and a very different way of looking at death.” — Leigh Bardugo (23:16)
• “Grief is the dirty fighter…you think you've knocked it out…then all of a sudden, you're crying in a Panda Express parking lot.” — Leigh Bardugo (26:33)
• “That is the cake that would bring him back from the beyond.” — Leigh Bardugo (fruitcake for her dad, 28:24)
• “He was a meatloaf, mashed potatoes, root beer float kind of guy…” — Zibby Owens (29:49)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Intro/Guest Bios (03:20 – 04:39)
• How Bardugo & Picacio Met (04:52 – 06:31)
• Genesis & Development of Collaboration (07:23 – 09:44)
• Unique Approach to Grief (10:49 – 14:45)
• Artistry: Color and Thematic Design (18:09 – 22:08)
• Cultural Bridges and Personal Influence (22:51 – 24:52)
• Memorable Reader Impact & Ritual of Remembrance (25:38 – 28:14)
• Traditions: Meals for Lost Loved Ones (28:14 – 30:30)
• Future Collaboration & The Power of Kindness (30:55 – 31:37)

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Tone and Style

The conversation is heartfelt, candid, and marked by humor and warmth, embodying the same blend of honesty, adventure, and emotional resonance that characterizes The Invisible Parade itself. Both Bardugo and Picacio freely share personal anecdotes, inviting listeners into their creative process and their ongoing journeys with grief, remembrance, and storytelling. Zibby’s hosting is empathetic and engaging, drawing out both the serious and joyful aspects of collaboration and connection.

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Final Thoughts

The Invisible Parade emerges as a singular work that bridges generations and cultures, offers new language for grief, and celebrates the possibilities of connection—both on the page and between creators. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in how art and storytelling can heal, comfort, and unite.

Transcript

[Zibby Owens]

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At least 20 grams of protein. No artificial flavors or colors. No chopping, no clean cleanup. No guilt. Keep the flavor, ditch the subscription. Get 20 off your first two orders with code APRON. 20 terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more better help. Online Therapy bought this 30 second ad to remind you right now, wherever you are, to unclench your jaw, relax your shoulders, take a deep breath. Breath in and out. Feels better, right? That's 15 seconds of self care. Imagine what you could do with more. Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of therapy. No pressure, just help. But for now, just relax. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to read Books in my daily show. I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram. Ibyoans Leigh Bardugo and John Picassio are the author illustrator of the Invisible Parade. Leigh Bardugo is the number one New York Times bestselling author of the Familiar Ninth House and the creator of the Grishaverse Now, a Netflix original series which spans the Shadow and Bone Trilogy, the Six of Crows, Duology, the King of Scars, Duology, and much more. Her short fiction has appeared in multiple anthologies including the Best American Science Fiction and Fantasy. She lives in Los Angeles and is an Associate Fellow of Pauli Murray College at Yale University. John Picassio is a World Fantasy Award and Hugo Award winning artist who has created book illustrations for major works by George R.R. martin, Rebecca Roanhorse, and many more. He is the founder of the Mexican X Initiative, spearheading the journeys of more than 40 Mexican and Mexican American creators into the wider awareness of fantasy and science fiction audiences. John lives in San Antonio. Welcome John and Lee. Thank you so much for coming to talk about the Invisible Parade. Congratulations on your fabulous book. I want to call it children's book, but it's kind of not just a children's book, so I'll say a picture book. How about that?

[John Picacio]

That's great works.

[Zibby Owens]

Why don't you tell me a little bit about why the two of you collaborated, how the two of you came to collaborate. I know you write about it in the book and what the book's really about.

[Leigh Bardugo]

I mean, John and I met a long time ago. We met at a worldcon in Reno and it was my first worldcon. I was there as a fan and I had gone to this party for the George R.R. martin Fan Club, the Brotherhood Without Banners. If you ever wanted to see my nerd credentials, Zibby, they are now on full display and I really didn't know anybody. I hadn't been published yet. I wasn't being published until the next year. I was pretty nervous and and John was like one of the con superstars that year. He had done this incredible calendar for A Song of Ice and Fire and I went up to him at this party and I just told him sort of in that very, like, ducking fangirl way that's just like, I'm so sorry to bother you. So sorry to bother you, but I really loved the illustration you did of Bran on the battlements. It was so beautiful and so poignant and I don't want to bother you. And I was ready to sort of skulk away into the shadows. And, you know, most people would just be like, thank you so much. Bye. And John instead turned around and was like, what's your deal? What are you doing here? What's your story? And so we started talking and we ended up chatting for a really long time at this party. And I showed him the comps for the COVID of Shadow and Bone, my first novel, and he really treated me as a peer as opposed to a nobody, and one that made a huge impression on me about the right way to behave as a person in the literary world and how much that kindness means. And it sort of set the stage for us being friends for many years after.

[John Picacio]

Yeah, I mean, the energy was just electric when she walked up. It was just kind of electric. I mean, she had. She had intentions in the room, but she was also very genuine, you know, when she came up with the, you know, she was just starting. I guess you was. Did you have your comps for Shadow and Bone? I seem to remember that, but I.

[Leigh Bardugo]

Think we had the covers, but that was all we had. And we actually didn't end up with either of those covers.

[John Picacio]

No, no.

[Leigh Bardugo]

I remember us sitting down to you being like, well.

[John Picacio]

But I was just really impressed. I mean, the way she just had this really solid approach. She was a solid pro right from the go. She was electric, and I just enjoyed. I was there with a bunch of friends and they just kind of floated away, and we were just kind of left with each other there talking. And I was enjoying her more than my company that I had at the time, honestly.

[Leigh Bardugo]

And we stuck together about your friends.

[John Picacio]

And we stuck together during that con. We had good, good talks. But the thing is, is that at the conventions over the next five years, we would always make time for each other. And let's remember, that is Shadow and Bone. So this woman takes off like a rocket from. From the go, which is extremely unusual, as we know, but well deserved because that book was amazing. And as each subsequent book in that trilogy came out, she was just bigger and bigger, and so she was making time for me, let's just be honest, as the next few years come along. But we did cut that time for Each other. So I'm working on this thing called Loteria. At the time, I'm doing lots and lots of book covers for science fiction, fantasy, and working on these new interpretations of Mexican bingo cards. And as I'm doing that, this idea where this picture book comes in my head, and I. And I'm thinking, well, I'm working on Loteria, and it's kind of a lonely road doing this. This book right now. I don't want to work on two lonely roads at the same time. I want someone who I'm going to have fun with. I want to be with someone who I laugh with. I want to be with someone I trust, and I want to do this story with that person. And she was the one. And I called her and I said, listen, I got this idea for this story. And the breathing was just very different.

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I remember.

[Leigh Bardugo]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. John, that's not what you said. Okay? You said, I think we should write a book together. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. Because at that point, we were pretty far on at that point. I think it was. Was it around 2017, 26, 2015? Ish?

[John Picacio]

I think now that I thought it was 16, but now I look back at notes. I don't know.

[Leigh Bardugo]

We're too old to remember.

[John Picacio]

No, it's there. Yeah, it's about 2015. Ish. But we're talking.

[Leigh Bardugo]

We're far enough along that people have started coming to me and being like, we should write a book together. I have a great idea. You do all the work. We'll split it 70, 30. I'm being generous, you know, like it was. And, like, a doctor literally did this to me when I was in the hospital. So I'm not kidding. So I was very wary. And my first thought was, oh, God, how are we gonna stay friends when I say no to this? But then John said something else.

[John Picacio]

Yeah, I said, I'm thinking about a story that's like the wizard of Oz in a graveyard. And that's when a little bit different.

[Leigh Bardugo]

Yeah. Started breathing again. I was like, wait a minute. Go on.

[John Picacio]

So we went. Yeah. I pitched this idea of this girl in a graveyard. Now, she wasn't grieving her grandfather at the time. That pivot was not there yet. That came from Lee. But it was this girl who was grieving, and she meets these four riders on the night of Dia de Muertos. I will say that I had pitched it more as a story about a girl trying to overcome sort of the fear of death. But when Lee gets a hold of it not only does it become, you know, she brings in a very, very important pivot of this girl grieving her grandfather, which is coming from Lee's biography, but I would say that it becomes a story about how we process grief, which is far more Mexican. And really, I think that. That, you know, as much as people are gonna maybe lead to the conclusion that comes from me being the Mexican American in the unit. No, I came from Lee. And I think the story became more profoundly personal and even cultural, culturally resonant as far as Mexican culture. So, yeah, that's kind of true. I think our collaboration. It's funny how the lines blur as far as what people think comes from me versus what comes from her.

[Leigh Bardugo]

Yeah. Wow.

[Zibby Owens]

What a story. Thanks for taking me back to the rooms where it happened. The novel, the book deals with grief in a very unique way. I feel like, compared to most ways that kids in particular are spoken to about loss and the puppy dogs and sunshine of it all. And this is a darker and yet inspiring take you take us through where spirits reside, essentially, how to keep people alive, how to, you know, what can you do to. What foods can you cook to bring people back. Like, what do the Four Horsemen even mean? How can we become friends with death? I mean, this is like, you know, not playground material. And yet you package it in such a way that any child who, of course, has these complicated. Not complicated, but advanced thoughts a lot of the time and gets spoken down to talk a little bit about. About that. And just writing. Do you feel like you wrote this for children? Do you feel like you wrote it for grownups? Like it is a work of art in addition to just a story? I mean, it's both.

[Leigh Bardugo]

I mean, I started out in young adults, and we would get questions a lot about sort of how you pivot in storytelling from YA to adult and so forth. But I think the reality is the story kind of tells you what it wants to be. And I think John and I are now at an age where we are coping with all of the ideas about mortality that loss brings. But I think for me, it was about. I think there's a kind of. When my dad passed away, there's all this noise, right? When somebody dies, there's a kind of. There's all these people around you. There's all these logistics to handle. There's people calling you and offering condolence. And then all of a sudden, it goes so quiet. And so we started thinking about what that silence would mean for a kid, where they want to connect to their family and to These traditions and to the celebr and the grief around them. You know, they want to share in this with the people around them, but they don't know how to reach out because they're in pain. And we thought too, about people who want to reach out to people who are lonely, who are grieving, but don't know what to say. And so you. You don't send that text or you don't make that call when the person needs it the most. Not because you don't care, because you literally don't know what to say. And so this book for us was a way of trying to offer a different conversation that didn't feel as, like, heavy and bogged down with sort of philosophical thoughts about grief. You can go there if you want to with this book, but that offered a story and an adventure and a journey for you to go on with Kyla. And that was our hope. Yeah. Whether for kids or for adults.

[John Picacio]

Yeah, I think. Yeah. When you said, is it for kids or for adults? It's both. I mean, but we, it was important to us that this was an adventure story. And, you know, we, we weren't just. It wasn't just Lee doing the words, me doing the picture. She had so much input in how we designed our horsemen. And I mean, it was. It was both of us working together. It almost feels weird even saying she had input. It's like, you know, we were. As I'm sculpting and building these things, I'm showing her stuff and I'm saying, what do you think of these things? And, you know, it was the same with the words. And. But I would say that, you know, when we, when we're doing this stuff, we are thinking that we're kind of writing a story for ourselves. And I know I was, because I know as I have these family members that are hitting these twilight years or year, I'm having to sort of almost write a story for myself as well as for my own kid. You know, I'm a dad of a. Of a daughter here who's, who's got these questions. And when we started this, I mean, she was single digits. She's in elementary school. And, you know, when you're saying, you know, kids have these complicated questions, or maybe they're not complicated. I think they are, you know, but it's. It's up to us to kind of articulate a way to be able to communicate that there's a. There's a tool, there's a toolkit for how to. Or at least our toolkit for how you process these things and doing it.

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[John Picacio]

I think color was really important to both of us, too. Right, Lee? I would say. Why don't you talk about color?

[Zibby Owens]

Le.

[Leigh Bardugo]

Oh, no. You talk about color. I love that John includes me so much in this. And he's like, she's on the other. I'm like, john. This is John's genius on the page and his hard work on the page. And we. We did. I'll speak, I think, to the horsemen, and then maybe you can address the color. Because the horsemen each represents a lesson for Kala. But we didn't want it to feel like a lesson. We wanted to feel like it was part of her story and her adventure. And each of those horsemen represent one. The fear that we bring to that can cycle around death, the fear of getting sick, fear of loss, what it means when we see somebody going hungry. And also how we can do good in the world instead of just turning away from it. And so each of those horsemen that she meets, you know, what would be the equivalent of the Scarecrow and the Tin man and the Lion? They have lessons to impart, but they're different kinds of lessons. And we hoped that they would be ways for kids to address their fears that come up around grief and come up around loss. So it's not just simply, I'm scared of death. It's. It's all the things that come up that keep little kids up at night. And frankly, they keep me up at night some nights, too. So that, for me, thematically, was sort of where we really had to work on the story. And then John did this really interesting thing with color.

[John Picacio]

I don't know. I remember it's both of us, but then again, that's the way my mind blurs. Right? I mean, I see it as, you Know, the idea that the color is just as important as the words and the silhouettes and the designs, because if you strip away all that stuff and just look at the color palette for the story tells you Kala's emotional journey. You know, we. We start off with a. With a sepia tone, with this spot red on her scarf to. To call out that scarf, and. Because it's a very important tether that. That pulls us through the story. But that. That sepia is about Paula's numbness. The.

[Zibby Owens]

The.

[John Picacio]

The way when we're depressed, when we're grieving, we can't feel, we can't taste, we can't hear.

[Zibby Owens]

It's.

[John Picacio]

It's just. It's almost like we're underwater. At least I am when I feel this way. And so we let our color palette describe her emotions as the family is celebrating and everything is building toward this. This happy reunion, but she's not feeling that. And as she goes to the graveyard and she encounters each horseman, a new color starts to emerge, and with each horseman, new shade. And by the time we hit death. Technicolor. Because now she's starting to hit sort of a. I don't. I wouldn't say. I would say sort of a bit of revelation where she's starting to see clarity, I guess, and.

[Zibby Owens]

And.

[John Picacio]

And. Go ahead.

[Leigh Bardugo]

Well, Zibby is showing some of these illustrations now, and I think this is so important. She's at the gatefold, and to us, this was the moment of catharsis, right? Like, this is the moment where Kala has entered the world of the dead. She's walked through those cemetery gates, and in doing that, she's reconnected with the living. And this is the explanation. Explosion through her eyes of life and color and the return of all the things John talked about. Appetite, joy, connection. And so that gatefold was sort of the. That was the anchor of the entire book, was how this was going to operate. And I remember seeing these images for the first time before they even had color and how explosive they were. And we hope that, you know, for a kid reading this with their parent, that they're gonna be able to go into the iconography of this, the history of this, but also the emotional resonance of this. You know, when you see La Mariposa, like, that's a beautiful image, and it's something that people can connect to instantly, even if they aren't connected to this particular culture. So that, for us, was this sort of welcoming moment. And then you can see Kala is back in Kahla's world.

[John Picacio]

I think it's also important. I think one thing that makes this book differ from maybe some other Dia de Muertos books is the idea that we wanted this to not just be so much a girl connecting with her culture in a traditional sense, but the idea that she's finding herself. She's discovering herself. She's discovering her own way of connecting with her culture on her own terms. And personally, I don't see as many of those kinds of that kind of perspective in a lot of the. The other Muerto stories that I encounter. And I thought that that was something that was. It's important to me as a dad, and I think that's important to lead just as a person. You know, the idea of communicating people, finding their way to deal with the world on their own terms, as opposed to someone else's terms.

[Leigh Bardugo]

I mean, I can say that, you know, when I lost my dad, I didn't deal with it in particularly healthy ways. And I was sort of lost for a while. And a friend of mine reached out to me. I lost him in April, and she reached out to me in October as we were heading into this season, and she invited me to come with her family to their Dia de Muertos celebration. And it was like she was throwing me a lifeline and inviting me into this space and a very different way of looking at death. And when, you know, when John and I started working on this project, he pointed me to this book, this Octavio Baz book. It was, I think, the Mexican way of death or. And it. All of that sort of came together for me in the way we were thinking about this and the kind of way we can rope off culture or we can open those doors and say, come with me and let's be here together in communion, and let's see the way these cultures interact. And we wanted to make our own story. And so the Four Horsemen are very much not a part of Mexican iconography in terms of that tradition, but we wanted to tell our own story that, again, could invite both kids and adults, whether you're looking. I think it's also sort of. I know we're talking about really heavy stuff, but the goth in me loves the Halloween aspect of this book, loves the spooky aspects of this, loves the humor in it. And that way of brushing up against heavy themes, but also doing it with a little bit of a wink, I think is. And I think kids respond to that. I don't think Halloween is just about candy. I mean, it is about candy. Let's Be real. But it's not just about candy. It's about being the monster, right? Facing the monster and fighting it, or getting to be monstrous for a day. And all of that, I hope is built into these pages so that even kids who are not in a place where they need to think deeply on these things can brush up against them without feeling frightened.

[Zibby Owens]

Wow, that's so inspiring to hear you talk about the way another culture can help you. I feel like we all can feel so alone in grief and not know how to handle it. And I don't know what the unhealthy things were, but there's like not, there are no great ways to handle the loss. A loss like that, you know, and having, having something that gives a lot of comfort in whatever, from wherever you can take it. Great. You know, even if you didn't grow up with it. I think that's amazing. And I think, John, it's so, it's, it's like an act of generosity to say, like, hey, take this. You know, this is what, how my culture celebrates it. Like, come on, it might make you feel better and come, come join the party like you say on the book. So it's really quite beautiful.

[John Picacio]

Thank you. I think one of my favorite. I'll just say this one of my favorite comments I've seen on social media. This happened shortly after the, on November 1st or November 1st and 2nd. There was a guy in Baltimore, not Mexican American, Jewish as I, As I remember, 56 year old guy says, I'm 56 years old. I bought the book when it came out, but I was saving it for today because today is the one year anniversary of mom's death and I needed this so bad. And he says, I'm crying, but I just wanted to let you know that this, this was what I was waiting, this was what I was saving this book for. Thank you for making it. I was like, that's, that's why we're doing this. And so it's, it is for me, it is for. We wanted this story to be for kids, but it's for all of us. And so those kinds of comments, which I do see a lot of, tell me that Leah and I weren't wrong that you know, a book like this is, is important, is needed right now. I think it's always needed. It's just there's not enough of it. Anyway, thank you.

[Leigh Bardugo]

That is scary. And I think it's the kind of thing that we often dance around that we don't speak directly to. And I always say grief is the dirty fighter. Like, you think you've. You think you've knocked it out. You think you're past it. All, right, good. And then all of a sudden, you're crying in a Panda Express parking lot. Like, it's. It comes at you from places you didn't expect. You know, I lost my dad over a decade ago, but it still hits me like a ton of bricks, you know, just. And I think, for me, there's. Kala is. Kala reads with her grandfather, which is something I did with my grandfather. That was my entryway to books and storytelling. And they're reading this book that they. That she thinks she'll never get to finish because he passes before they can. And the idea of getting to finish that story, I hope, is meaningful. Like, I hope that metaphor at the center of the story resonates with people and that if they need a little touchstone, they can go back and walk through those gates with Kala.

[Zibby Owens]

Essentially, our story with so many people is cut short, right? Like, that's the. That's. That's life. Not to oversimplify, but if only. If only some of these stories could continue, and how do we bring them back to life and make peace with that, in a way. And I feel like.

[Leigh Bardugo]

And keep people alive, keep their stories alive, keep the things they loved alive. So much of Dia is about. Is about remembering the dead through the things they loved and the way they connected with us in the world. And that, I think, is such a powerful idea because it's not just about our relationship to them. It's about the way they moved through the world and the things they loved and they desired and. And by sharing them with the dead, we are. It's like we're breaking bread with them again.

[Zibby Owens]

Lee, what meal? There's a meal that gets made for the. The grandmother says she's good at making this meal, and it's really for the grandfather. Like, what meal would you make your dad?

[Leigh Bardugo]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, God. My dad. So my dad grew up in the south. He was Lebanese, but he grew up in the south, and he. He loved fruitcake the most. Disgusted. Every year, his mother would send him a giant. This thing weighed. This was a fabulous murder weapon. Like, it just weighed. The size of it, I don't even know. And. And he would make this thing last forever. And I remember once as a kid being like, let me try it. And then having major regrets, but that would absolutely be on his ofrenda. Like, that is. That is the cake that would bring him back from the beyond. And I Would not need to share it with him, but I would try.

[Zibby Owens]

What about you, John? Who's somebody who you would make a meal for?

[John Picacio]

My grandpa, my father's side grandpa. Picasso is literally my inner voice. That's literally the voice. Like, when things are going well, he says, don't get a big head when things are bad. He says, get up. And it's that growl, that gruff voice that I hear every day. I mean, it is my inner voice. He's easy. I mean, that guy's Schlitz malt liquor, tamales, pork tamales, by the way, and chili pequins. I mean, he used to pick the chili pequins and say, here, have some strawberries. That's what he called them. Strawberries. They're not strawberries. Y' all know those. Those can be serious business. But, yeah, that. That. Those were his jams. So, yeah, Schlitz malt liquor, pork tamales, chili pequins.

[Zibby Owens]

Who knew?

[Leigh Bardugo]

What about you, Zibby?

[Zibby Owens]

A meal I would make for someone. I recently lost my stepfather in the last month, and he was like a meatloaf, mashed potatoes, root beer float kind of guy. So he would. He would definitely want that.

[Leigh Bardugo]

I love that.

[Zibby Owens]

I remember my mom, like, when they first started dating. This is like 30 years ago. She made that meal at home, and she's like, yes, tonight we're having meatloaf. And I'm like, mom, what are you doing?

[Leigh Bardugo]

Like, you don't eat meatloaf.

[Zibby Owens]

We don't eat meatloaf here.

[Leigh Bardugo]

We're the meatloaf family now.

[Zibby Owens]

I know. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. None of this. I'm gonna call you out for all of this. I'm sure that was really helpful. But anyway, yeah, thanks for asking. Are the two of you teaming up on more books? I can't imagine this is the end of your fabulous relationship here.

[Leigh Bardugo]

Right now, we are both recovering, I think, from the journey of this book and promoting it. We were on tour. We got to go to the National Book Festival. And I'm right now going back and trying to catch up on the novel I'm very behind on. But I have no doubt we will work together in the future, I think. I don't know if it will be another book, but I know there are more stories for me and John to tell. For sure.

[Zibby Owens]

Amazing. Fabulous. Well, I'm so glad. And I love that you started off with that story of just showing grace to someone you meet, grace to strangers. That John was so nice to you. I mean, in that one act. Look, at all the good that has come. And we all have those opportunities every day to be nice and generous to somebody we talk to or to be dismissive. And as soon as you open the door, like great things happen even 10 years later or whatever, you just have to like put it out there. So I love that it started with that and ended with this. And it's just a really great full circle story with a lot of heart and soul, which is no surprise after reading the book. So thank you guys so much for coming on.

[Leigh Bardugo]

Thank you for having us. Thank you so much.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you.

[John Picacio]

Appreciate you.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay, take care. Bye.

[John Picacio]

See you guys.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbyowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

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