Totally Booked with Zibby – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Matti Friedman Introduces Us to Heroes
Host: Zibby Owens
Guest: Matti Friedman
Date: March 26, 2026
Book Discussed: Who by Fire; Out of the Heroism and Rebirth in Nazi Europe

Episode Overview

In this evocative episode of Totally Booked with Zibby, host Zibby Owens interviews celebrated author and journalist Matti Friedman about his latest nonfiction book, which explores a remarkable wartime mission and the question of heroism in Jewish and Israeli history. The conversation delves into the story of Jewish parachutists during WWII, the cultural fabric of heroism, and the power of storytelling. Friedman offers insights into historical research, the enduring influence of lost writers, and the profound impact of narrative on identity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Book’s Central Narrative and Historical Roots

[05:20]

• Friedman introduces his book, focusing on a British operation in 1944 that recruited young Jews who'd escaped to British Mandate Palestine to parachute back into Nazi-controlled Europe.
• The mission, though part of Israeli national mythology, is little-known outside Israel.
• Central figure: Hannah Senesh—theme compared to legendary American heroes, but with little detail known to most outside experts.
• The book interrogates not only the historical events, but also what Zionism aspired to be, using these individuals as a lens.

“It was also an attempt to kind of ask what Zionism is, what the state of Israel is trying to achieve... peel away eight decades of history and get at the core of what this country was in the eyes of the people who founded it.” – Matti Friedman [06:29]

2. The Shifting Meaning of Heroism

[07:14]

• Discusses why modern society is skeptical of heroes and often seeks to bring them down, referencing President Trump’s comments on John McCain as a cultural turning point.
• Contrasts today’s skepticism with the urgency for heroes during WWII.

“We live in a kind of anti-heroic moment where our tendency is to tear down heroes.” – Matti Friedman [07:03]
"There's something about the cultural vibe, which is very much about downlift... The idea of agreed upon heroes, someone like George Washington or Lincoln... Even that idea is really under fire." – Matti Friedman [09:37]

3. Structure & Method of the Book

[12:21]

• Focuses on four parachutist characters out of 32, not all of whom survived the mission.
• Describes reliance on archives, memoirs, obscure texts – and his decision to retrace their physical journeys to merge landscape, memory, and narrative.
• Noted especially how literary and word-driven these individuals were—their poetry, diaries, and personal writings form the backbone of the story.

“They were like bookworms, you know. Hannah Senesh is basically a theater kid… They weren't military figures. And what they were was literary characters who had a very concrete idea of what heroism was…” [13:44]

4. The Power of Literature and Female Voices

[16:36]

• Two of the four central characters are women, their stories shaped by literary ambition and feminist context.
• Highlighted the neglected anthology Members of the Kibbutz, a rare collection of essays by and about women, and how those texts were a source of inspiration on the mission.

“It's an anthology... It's a really interesting document. And Aviva absolutely loved this book, and she loved it so much that she put it in her pack and took it with her when she volunteered for this mission.” [17:09]

5. The Enduring Impact of Written Words

[22:04]

• Discussion about the “wall of books that would have been” had the Holocaust not decimated European Jewry.
• Even though many didn’t survive, their words endure and transform them into the writers they aspired to be.
• Reflection on the mission's real achievements—less military than narrative.

“They believed in the power of words... What they knew that they could do because they believed in literature, was tell a different story about the war in which they were heroes and not victims.” – Matti Friedman [24:09]

6. The Role of Storytelling for Survival and Identity

[26:07]

• Recounts an episode where Jewish refugees meet a parachutist who offers hope by simply being there and speaking Hebrew. The very presence and their story were more powerful than military rescue.

“All they can do is tell them a story, which kind of returns us to the theme of storytelling. All they can do is say, survive until the end of this war and you'll be able to get to this country which does not exist, but will one day. So it's just a story. And it's an incredibly powerful story.” – Matti Friedman [28:43]

7. Personal Motivation and Connection

[32:14]

• Friedman shares his personal journey from Toronto to Israel and how his writing emerges from a desire to understand his adopted country.
• Observes how these heroes are interwoven into Israeli landscape and collective memory.

“Before I'm writing for anyone else, I'm writing for myself. And I'm trying to figure out this really kind of wild and surprising and frustrating and depressing and exciting and electric place where I find myself living." [32:30]

Memorable Quotes by Segment

• On Anti-Heroism Today:
  “The urge is to kind of tear people down and bring them down to our level... The idea of agreed-upon heroes... is really under fire in an age of extreme sectarianism and division.” – Matti Friedman [09:37]
• On Lost Words:
  “Sometimes I think about the wall of books that would have been had all the Jews lived, and how instead now there are just a couple books here and there, as opposed to a full bookshelf, and all the stories that were lost...” – Zibby Owens [23:46]
• On the Essence of the Mission:
  “You could say it’s just a story. But they understand that a story is something that’s incredibly powerful... I’m speaking to you from Israel right now, which is a country that is born of a story and it became real.” – Matti Friedman [30:34]
• On Reclaiming Forgotten Lives:
  “As the reader, we then got to see... And you have examples of people who were just going about their lives ... and then they end up in these military situations and becoming, you know, heroes, if you will, or their trajectory now you’ve uncovered.” – Zibby Owens [10:28]

Notable Moments & Timestamps

• [05:20] Introduction to the book’s premise and how Friedman stumbled on the story
• [07:14] Discussion about the “anti-heroic” spirit of our current era
• [12:21] How the book was researched and how personal writings/literary ambitions shaped the mission participants
• [16:36] Discovery and significance of the female-authored kibbutz anthology
• [22:04] Reflection on “the wall of books that would have been” if not for the Holocaust
• [26:07] Emotional recounting of a moving scene in the forest—storytelling as survival
• [32:14] Friedman’s personal connection to Israel, storytelling, and national memory

Tone & Style Highlights

• The conversation is reverent, insightful, and emotional, drawn with both journalistic rigor and deep empathy for the people involved.
• Zibby balances admiration with informality, encouraging vivid discussion and personal anecdotes.

Final Thoughts

Through Matti Friedman’s meticulous research and sensitivity to nuance, this episode not only uncovers unknown heroes but also invites us to reflect on the transformative, sometimes redemptive, power of story. Whether through literature, action, or memory, the stories we tell sustain communities and remake the world—an idea that echoes through the names, songs, and books that outlast even the greatest tragedies.