Midlife Reinvention Mixed with ‘90s Princeton University—and Running

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Totally Booked with Zibby

Episode: “Midlife Reinvention Mixed with ‘90s Princeton University—and Running”
Host: Zibby Owens
Guests: Ali Frank & Asha Youmans
Date: March 12, 2026
Location: Recorded live at the Whitby Hotel

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Overview

In this engaging live episode, Zibby Owens sits down with acclaimed co-authors Ali Frank and Asha Youmans to discuss their latest novel, Run for Your Life Callie Kingman. Their conversation explores midlife reinvention, the complexities of Gen X womanhood, interracial and cross-cultural relationships, and the realities (and humor) of collaborative writing. The episode is packed with laughter, candid reflections, memorable stories, and insights both on the writing process and about embracing change in life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. About the Book: Run for Your Life Callie Kingman

• Premise & Themes ([05:09], [06:47]):
  • A love letter to Gen X women.
  • Follows Callie Kingman, a scholar who falls in love in the ‘90s at Princeton, later marries someone else and moves to Sacramento, feeling stifled and unfulfilled.
  • A health scare prompts Callie to join a running club, setting her on a journey of community and self-rediscovery.
  • The book is told in a dual timeline: ‘90s Princeton campus and present-day Sacramento.
  • Explores themes of first love, midlife transformation, the rural/urban divide, interracial relationships, and the “comeback” after feeling lost.

“It is a story of a young scholar who meets the love of her life in college... finds a new man, follows him to Sacramento—what she feels is the dullest city in America... And after a health scare joins a running club, finds her community, changes her life, rediscovers herself and it's a beautiful story about her comeback.”
—Asha Youmans [05:09]

2. Setting and Reception ([06:13], [06:17]):

• Sacramento is humorously cast as a "dull city," which drew some defensive readers, particularly from California.

“We have a few defensive readers on Amazon and Goodreads. We have been unwelcomed to the entire state of California.”
—Ali Frank & Asha Youmans [06:17]

3. Interracial and Cross-Cultural Relationships ([07:42], [09:29]):

• The book’s central romance is not only interracial but also highlights a rural-urban divide (Porter from rural North Carolina, Callie from NYC).
• The authors delve into societal challenges, familial resistance, and characters' navigation between worlds.
• Memorable in-law character, Delsey Beaumont, and her complex response to her son's relationship.

“We wanted to explore not just the differences between an interracial relationship in the '90s... but something in America that we're still not really comfortable talking about is the differences between rural America and urban America.”
—Ali Frank [07:42]

“Delsey Beaumont lets it be known that, you know, this is still my son. You know, you won't have him unless he makes you a wife. And the look she kind of gives and the vibe she gives to Callie is that Callie will never occupy that spot.”
—Asha Youmans [09:29]

4. The Authors’ Writing Partnership ([11:01], [12:44]):

• Ali and Asha joke about their “writing marriage”—a long-standing partnership between black and white co-authors.
• They met at The Bearchi School in Seattle; Ali was assistant head, Asha was a pre-K teacher.
• Began writing together after decompressing from admissions work, leading to their first novel, Tiny Imperfections.

“We started writing together in 2017... we met working at an independent school in Seattle, Washington... from those stories and just decompressing... we ultimately came together to write our first book, Tiny Imperfections.”
—Ali Frank [11:01]

• Their partnership pivoted through different life stages and locations, adjusting their process with each new book.

5. Writing about Difficult Topics with Humor ([14:08], [14:51]):

• After the racial awakening of 2020, Ali and Asha committed to tackling difficult issues (race, religion, privilege, parenting) with humor and heart, preferring to “laugh and learn” instead of “cry and learn.”
• They jokingly call themselves the “Will and Grace of race.”

“Asha and I really believed that you can just as easily learn about people who are different than you through humor and comedy and laughter... We dubbed ourselves the Will and Grace of race.”
—Ali Frank [14:08], [15:24]

6. Midlife & Gen X Women: Representation and Real Talk ([20:42], [21:09], [21:56]):

• The novel is set in the Gen X experience, especially early ‘90s college campuses, but resonates beyond: readers from younger and older generations identify with its themes.
• Discussion of Gen X women’s contradictions: urged by their mothers to seize new opportunities but still pressured to “have it all” (successful careers, marriages, motherhood, maintaining beauty and fitness).

“We had mothers who really were champions of us going off... because they didn't have those same opportunities. But at the same time, they wanted validation for how they had lived their lives... so they also wanted to make sure that... we were the ones taking care of the children.”
—Ali Frank [21:56]

“Remember the Anjou Lis commercial? I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan. Well, no, I can do one or the other. I’m not doing both.”
—Asha Youmans [22:38]

7. Collaborative Writing: The Mechanics and Magic ([23:38], [25:12], [26:10]):

• Their process involves playing to each other’s strengths: Asha writes longhand with notebooks everywhere, Ali is more tech-savvy and manages the story’s structure.
• They leapfrog chapters, then spend 6–8 rounds reading the manuscript aloud—Asha as the dramatic reader, Ali at the keyboard—fine-tuning every detail, especially for authenticity and tone.
• Key: Both must defend every sentence, especially on sensitive or “spicy” topics, ensuring mutual comfort regardless of the character’s background.

“We probably spend six to eight times reading the book out loud. So Asha’s an unbelievable actor, and so she is the reader, and as we say, she’s the diva. I’m the accountant... we have to make sure we agree on every comma, every adjective, everything we put in there.”
—Ali Frank [26:10]

8. Taking a Stand in the Industry ([28:12]):

• They declined a TV/film deal because the studio refused to give them a title card (on-screen credit), standing firm on acknowledgment for their work.

“We got everything else we wanted, but that one thing that did not cost a dime, they would not bend on.”
—Ali Frank [28:33]

9. On Running—Literally and Metaphorically ([30:49], [31:11]):

• Allie is the athlete (runner, former ski champion, rodeo queen!), while Asha is a reluctant runner, only running “if there’s a large dog chasing me.”
• Their contrasting attitudes toward running influenced the way they wrote Callie’s running journey in the novel.

10. Advice for Aspiring Co-Authors ([31:44], [31:58], [34:33]):

• The partnership was serendipitous—what worked for Ali and Asha may not for everyone, but trust and complementary strengths are key.
• For aspiring co-authors: be prepared to put the project ahead of your ego; be willing to risk the friendship if that’s necessary.
• For all writers: “Just start.” Skip the over-prep. Like running, progress comes from doing, not just preparing.

“Have you sat your ass in the seat and started writing? ...All those things are great but they don’t actually move the ball forward... So just start doing it.”
—Ali Frank [34:33]

“You have to be willing to maybe lose a friendship, and if you're not willing to lose a friendship, don't write with a close friend. It can be tough, but I have become... part of her family over these years.”
—Asha Youmans [34:33]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We are the longest standing black and white co-authorship in publishing.”
  —Ali Frank [11:04]
• “Why is my husband’s job and what he wants to do determining my whole life? That, I think, is not as prevalent now.”
  —Ali Frank [23:18]
• “If we ever did [fight], I would win every time.”
  —Asha Youmans [23:58]
• “It was a very good year.”
  —Asha Youmans, on living in 1994 (re: writing by hand) [26:06]
• “If you write for yourself for the love of writing, great. If you write because you’re going to change careers, make sure you have a little savings under your belt. It is a privilege that I recognize that I can write full time.”
  —Asha Youmans [35:36]
• “She closed down the Bat Mitzvah with getting up and reciting Maya Angelou’s Phenomenal Woman. It was awesome.”
  —Ali Frank [35:15]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 05:09 – Book summary and themes: Callie’s journey, Gen X love letter
• 06:47 – Dual timeline structure (Princeton ‘90s & Sacramento now)
• 07:42 – Interracial and rural-urban relationship dynamics
• 09:29 – In-law dynamics: Delsey Beaumont and family tension
• 11:01 – How Ali and Asha met and began writing together
• 14:08 / 15:24 – Commitment to humor and “Will and Grace of race”
• 20:42 – 23:38 – Gen X women: generational expectations and midlife issues
• 25:12 / 26:10 – Writing process: leapfrogging chapters, reading aloud, collaboration
• 28:12 – Walking away from a TV deal (refusing credit)
• 30:49 / 31:11 – Who’s the runner? (Allie vs. Asha)
• 31:44 – 35:36 – Advice for co-authors and aspiring writers

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Final Thoughts

The episode is a vibrant, insightful, and humorous reflection on friendship, creative partnership, reinvention, and the generational experience of women. It’s a must-listen for fans of contemporary fiction, women’s stories, and anyone curious about the realities of co-authorship.

“Figure out why you're doing it. If you write for yourself, for the love of writing, great... but choose your reason why and stick with it.”
—Asha Youmans [35:36]

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For more on Totally Booked with Zibby, visit zibbymedia.com.

Transcript

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[Zibby Owens]

Today's episode is sponsored by Nutrafol. Do you ever worry about your hair? I was convinced that my hair had gotten a little bit thinner once I reached a certain age, which had me in a complete panic. So I started taking neutrophil and it helped. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement and the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists. Nutrafol offers multiple formulas for men and women tailored to different life stages like postpartum or menopause and lifestyle factors. For all of you who abide by a plant based diet, I do not. Adding Nutrafol to your daily routine is easy. You just order online, no prescription needed. You get automated deliveries and free shipping to keep you on track. Plus, with a Nutrafol subscription you can save 20% and get added perks to support your hair health journey. You just take four supplements a day and you'll be on your way. Let your hair be one less thing to worry about. See visibly thicker, stronger, faster Growing hair in three to six months with Nutrafol. And for a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit nutrafol.com and enter promo code Zibby that's nutrafol.com spelled N U T R A F O L.com promo code Zibby. Go do it. Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibbeowens. Ali Frank and Asha Umans are co authors of Run for your Life Kelly Kingman, which is a novel. We recorded this episode live at the Whitby Hotel. Ali and Asha, you might find their names familiar because they've been on this podcast several times. Also, Ali is one of the contributors to On Being Jewish now and she also contributed to My Moms don't have Time to anthology. Back in the day, Ali and Asha's debut, tiny Imperfections tackled desperate parents and ill fated misbehaviors, followed by Never Meant to Meet yout, which mined the comedic and underexplored common ground between black and Jewish experiences in America. Then came the better half, which was a Mindy K Leg Book studio production and their fourth book, boss lady came after that. Now we have Run for your Life Kalli Kingman. Enjoy. Welcome to Totally Booked live here at the Whitby Hotel. I am so excited to be here with our first guest of the day, Ali Frank and Asha Youmans, who are amazing. Welcome.

[Ali Frank]

Thank you.

[Capital One Bank Narrator]

Yay.

[Zibby Owens]

You can clap now. For those listening, we are here in front of a packed room of eager book lovers on a Sunday morning and just excited to get into it. Okay, the two of you have co written several books together and I read your bio another time. Run for your Life Callie Kingman is your newest book. Tell everybody what it's about, please.

[Ali Frank]

You want to start?

[Asha Youmans]

Sure. Run for your Life Callie Kingman is our love letter to our fellow Gen X women. It is a story of a young scholar who meets the love of her life in college and they split and go their own separate ways. And she finds a new man who she follows across the country, starts a life with, has children with all under the promise of well, we'll return to New York where they come from. We'll return to New York in a couple of years. It's just get started on my career and then we'll be off and running. Turns into over 20 years of residency in Sacramento, which she feels is the dullest city in America. Over those years she doesn't really develop her life sort of gets a little soft around the edges and after a health scare joins a running club, finds her community, changes her life, rediscovers herself and it's beautiful story about her comeback.

[Zibby Owens]

How did the people of Sacramento feel about this book?

[Ali Frank]

We have a few defensive readers on Amazon and Goodreads.

[Asha Youmans]

It's true, we have been unwelcomed to the entire state of California.

[Zibby Owens]

No tour stops in Sacramento. No, no. It becomes something that ends up uniting two people, unlikely relationships. I have to not give things away. A reunion with someone who's been. Oh my, you tell me better.

[Ali Frank]

Well, I'll just share. The book is actually told in dual timeline between Princeton University in the 90s and modern day Sacramento. So we really wanted to create yes, it's at Princeton, but it is a nostalgic feeling of the 90s on campus. You could insert really any campus, but there is a love between two people who when you're in your 20s and it's first love, there may be great differences that you don't recognize because you're just too busy having sex all the time. But we have, I mean it's true you fell in love in college.

[Asha Youmans]

You know, I did. I had one date in college and he's still at home.

[Ali Frank]

But it was not only an interracial relationship, but the male was also from rural North Carolina. And we wanted to explore not just the differences between an interracial relationship in the 90s, which I would argue that today we don't always do it elegantly, but we're more comfortable talking about race. But something in America that we're still not really comfortable talking about is the differences between rural America and urban America. And that also can be a very big divide. So in this relationship on the Princeton campus, we have a rural black, wonderful, intellectual, athletic male love interest and Callie Kingman who is from New York City.

[Asha Youmans]

City.

[Ali Frank]

But the outside world is different than the World on a campus. And they end up separated only to ultimately oddly, very oddly refine themselves in each other in Sacramento, which is a very twisty turny story how they get there.

[Zibby Owens]

See, I wasn't going to give that part away.

[Ali Frank]

Sorry.

[Zibby Owens]

Okay, well, anyway. Okay, well, Porter is somebody I would very much like to meet. You describe him and in delicious terms, let's just say that there's a scene where Porter's mom has to come in. There's an accident, she's there. There is some love lost. Let's just say that she is not into having Callie anywhere near her boy. Talk a little bit about that because I'm sure a lot of people can relate to not loving like an in law or something like that. But there are many layers here that get in the way between them.

[Asha Youmans]

Oh, yeah.

[Ali Frank]

Delsey Beaumont.

[Asha Youmans]

Boy, Delsey Beaumont. You know, the relationship is kept from her mostly. So when she meets the love interest of her, the son she loves so much, she's quite surprised. But she also greets this person with a kind of look like this up and down, side eye, a little bit like you'll always be second. And I think that plenty of partners have felt that way before meeting in laws in our lives. But we also discovered that the race, you know, race is the very first thing they might notice where there's a difference between the two of them. But then when you speak to someone who is from a rural environment, you also notice that there may be a geographical or maybe an assumed socioeconomic difference. And Delsey Beaumont lets it be known that, you know, this is still my son. You know, you won't have him unless he makes you a wife. And the look she kind of gives and the vibe she gives to Callie is that Callie will never occupy that spot. But really it's Porter's fault. He has not brought his family together to meet this woman he loves. And he does love her, but there's a fear inside of him to introduce and have his two worlds clash and collide.

[Zibby Owens]

Interesting. Well, speaking of interracial, I guess you could say, talk about how your partnership came to be.

[Asha Youmans]

Who?

[Zibby Owens]

Us.

[Ali Frank]

Our marriage.

[Zibby Owens]

You're writing marriage?

[Ali Frank]

It is such a writing marriage auction. I feel like we can now say with longest standing black and white co authorship in publishing. But we met both.

[Zibby Owens]

There was some applause. Someone clapped.

[Ali Frank]

She hasn't divorced me yet, but we actually met working at an independent school in Seattle, Washington, the Bearchi School. I was the assistant head of school and Asha was a pre K teacher. And we worked on admissions together very Intimately. And having to take very few seriously, the job of evaluating four and five year olds, which, behind closed doors, we found absolutely hilarious. And from those stories and just decompressing after admissions visits, we ultimately came together to write our first book, Tiny Imperfections, of which I have to note, came out in Covid. And we only got two public events with that book. And one was in your apartment when you were first starting for your podcast.

[Asha Youmans]

Yeah,

[Zibby Owens]

I still have, like. Well, for a long time, I had, I think the hat or the T shirt. No, it was a T shirt.

[Asha Youmans]

Yeah, right.

[Zibby Owens]

I had the tiny imperfections T shirt. Thank you for that. That was one of my first swag items. Felt very important. And then talk about what happened after that with your careers. The first book came out.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

Oh, my God.

[Ali Frank]

I'm like, we're old. We're so old. But a very.

[Asha Youmans]

You're old.

[Ali Frank]

She's a year younger than me.

[Asha Youmans]

That's right. I'll always be younger. But we went off. I left the school first and started a soul food catering company with my big sister and Allie, went off to found a Quaker school, the International Friends School in Bellevue, Washington, and has since moved on to living in Idaho, Sun Valley, with her family. So we sort of had to pivot with every book. First we wrote Shoulder to Shoulder with Tiny Imperfections. The next book we were in, Covid never meant to meet you. We had to figure out how to isolate ourselves just together and write this book. After that, Ali moved, and Alaska Airlines flight between Seattle and Sun Valley became our commute. Lucky for me, though, it's beautiful there. And have continued with each book to figure out how do we do this, with this, in whatever age we're in, whatever time and issues we're facing as a country, as mothers, as wives, as writers, and still do this as a partnership. So I feel like we've grown and changed with every novel that we've written.

[Ali Frank]

I would agree, except I would say Asha and I, from the very beginning, we started writing together in 2017. And then with the racial awakening in the spring of 2020, the books that were coming forward to readers to learn about races, religions, whoever that were different than each of us were very heavy and trying and hard and heartbreaking. And Asha and I really believed that you can just as easily learn about people who are different than you through humor and comedy and laughter. And for the two of us, we rather laugh and learn than cry and

[Asha Youmans]

learn the wrinkles are tragic from all that crying.

[Ali Frank]

So in this very tenuous time, we made the commitment to each other and the commitment to readers that we are going to write stories that are challenging about race and religion and parenting and privilege and education and all those things. But we're going to do it through humor and behind closed doors. But we'll share with you. We dubbed ourselves the will and grace of race.

[Zibby Owens]

No longer behind closed doors. No longer behind closed doors. Now it's out in the open. Oh, my gosh. Absolutely love it. And, Ali, you also contributed to On Being Jewish now and one of my very first anthologies written in Covid. Talk a little bit about that and how you felt, how you've been sharing your emotions in lots of ways. Fiction, nonfiction.

[Ali Frank]

Well, can I. I'm going to just address On Being Jewish now because it's actually a little bit of a funny story. So, as you all know, Zibby is amazing at being reflective and putting it out into the world. I reflect personally, like a squirrel. Like, I really don't. And it's very hard for me.

[Zibby Owens]

You don't reflect or you don't reflect and put it out there.

[Ali Frank]

Looking internally and putting it out there is super hard for me. I love writing fiction. I love envisioning other people's worlds and putting emotions that I may be feeling at the time, but into other characters rather than myself. But Zibi put out the call for On Being Jewish now pieces, essays, right at the time where I needed to write my speech for my daughter's bat mitzvah. And I was struggling and I was putting it off and off. And I'm actually not a person, as Asha knows. I'm usually very regimented about a timeline, and I just wasn't doing it and wasn't doing. And I felt like when the email came from you about On Being Jewish now and the call for essays, I'm like, all right, this is the world telling me that I need to write this speech for my daughter's bat mitzvah and I need to do it now. And it's going to have a bigger purpose to hopefully be in the On Being Jewish now or essays and anthologies. And it did. And I actually now love that. This love letter that I wrote to my daughter. And hopefully in your book Now All Daughters Lives in the World.

[Zibby Owens]

Amazing. I'm so glad you did it. I know.

[Ali Frank]

Me, too.

[Zibby Owens]

Even though it just helped you stop procrastinating, it's really what it was because

[Ali Frank]

you had a tight deadline.

[Asha Youmans]

Yeah.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Asha Youmans]

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[Zibby Owens]

Back to run for your life. You mentioned it was for Gen X women. I'm always a little confused by that. What are the age ranges? Are we Gen X? Are we not Gen X? Is anyone else confused?

[Asha Youmans]

There's a list. I always have to look it up on Google and figure out what generation I am in. But I believe ours. Gen x begins at 1965 and ends at 1980. So if you're born within those years, your Gen X.

[Ali Frank]

Okay, but the truth is, I mean, it's a love letter to middle age. It's just we felt like plopping it in early 90s collegiate time. That was our time and those were our people. But we've had an expanse of women read it and say, well, you know, I'm only 40, but this felt like me. Or, you know, I'm 65 and this felt like me. It was just our moment to be able to say to, you know, our friends and women of our era, we love you and we see you.

[Zibby Owens]

I felt like I was reading it thinking, I can hear these ladies just talking and laughing about all the indignities of getting older and how funny it really can be. Even though it's kind of not funny, but you made it funny, which was great.

[Ali Frank]

Well, indignities. But I also. We had lots of great conversations about generation access females, particularly on college campuses. We had mothers who really were champions of us going off and finding what we wanted to do because they didn't have those same opportunities. But at the same time, they wanted validation for how they had lived their lives. So they also wanted to make sure that. That, you know, we found good marriages and we had nice houses and we were the ones taking care of the children and.

[Asha Youmans]

And we stayed fit.

[Ali Frank]

And we stayed fit.

[Asha Youmans]

Nice looking. Remember the Anjou Lis commercial? I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan. Well, no, I can do one or the other. I'm not doing both.

[Ali Frank]

Yeah, and exactly that. There was no one right ahead of us that was showing us, truly you can do all those things, but not at the same time. I feel like we're an era that now younger women can say, oh, I've seen my mothers, my aunts, older sisters, whoever do all these things, but in different areas of their life. And so we were really interested in that age group because of our experience. Experience of, okay, well, I have the great education. I know exactly what I want to be. But why is my husband's job and what he wants to do determining my whole life? That, I think is not as prevalent now.

[Asha Youmans]

True.

[Zibby Owens]

And when you write these scenes together and you're laughing or however you do it, how do you pull off a writing relationship like this? Are you in one Google Doc? Like, what are the ins and outs of this? And do you ever have any conflicts about what you want included versus not?

[Ali Frank]

Yeah. We've never fought.

[Asha Youmans]

And if we ever did, I would win every time.

[Ali Frank]

I'm an only child. I don't know how to fight.

[Asha Youmans]

I'm a middle child. Check out these guns. We do disagree, but Ali and I have made a commitment to this work that says the work is more important than either one of us as individuals, our egos, what we need to earn, what we're doing. If we keep that at the forefront of our time together, it does go more smoothly. But I have to put myself second and put the work first. It makes it a little bit easier. But, you know, it's. Allie often says it's luck that we met each other and we're such great. A great partnership with our writing. But I think it's more than that. I think it's that we have curated beautiful communities of women around us. I hang out with strong women, smart women, funny women, fun women. And to have that crowd to pick from as a partnership is. You're gonna do all right.

[Ali Frank]

But the question was, how do we actually do what we do? So now I'm jumping in.

[Zibby Owens]

It was a two part.

[Asha Youmans]

Yeah.

[Ali Frank]

Okay.

[Asha Youmans]

I write longhand.

[Ali Frank]

She does.

[Asha Youmans]

Can you believe that you have a

[Zibby Owens]

pencil or a pen in your hand?

[Asha Youmans]

Yeah. See, people don't even still remember that. Lots of notes. I have notebooks everywhere surrounding. And Allie's a lot more tech savvy than I am, but she's super patient. That's the way my brain works, and that's where my best material is. How it's created is me sitting there with that yellow pad and a Bic pen. So. And I've gotten a little better. We now edit on I don't know what it's called.

[Ali Frank]

Oh, my God. You people have no idea how much she lives in 1994.

[Asha Youmans]

It was a very good year.

[Ali Frank]

But we will say so we do. First, we do a really literary leapfrog. So I'm the keeper of, like, the big whole story. And I get down the first couple chapters, ton of questions. I send it off to Asha, she goes to work. I do the next chapters. And that's just to get the work down, to get the story down. But really the beauty comes. And this is where I think we're so lucky, is that it is slow and it's laborious, but we probably spend six to eight times reading the book out loud. So Asha's an unbelievable actor, and so she is the reader, and as we say, she's the diva. I'm the accountant. You can tell by our outfits. But she is acting out every word, every everything. And I'm at the computer and we're listening, and we have to make sure we agree on every comma, every adjective, everything we put in there. And particularly the spicier stuff, not meaning spicy, sexy, but spicy, spicy, controversial. Because as long as we can defend it when it goes out in the world, great. But we don't ever have a time where Asha says, well, that's a black character. I'm the black person that should be this way. I have to be comfortable with that. Same with our Jewish characters and the characters who are not who we are. We have to feel good together, and then we can go forward. But I really think our magic is in those moments of acting it out. And I would also say that's resulted in. We've had two options of film to television, and then we had one option that in the 11th hour, we actually walked away from. But I believe that reading out loud makes it feel. We can hear the cinematic part as well as the story part.

[Zibby Owens]

Why did you walk away?

[Ali Frank]

We walked away because we had everything negotiated, but they did not want to give us a title card, which means credit on the screen for our work.

[Asha Youmans]

And we wrote it.

[Zibby Owens]

Yeah.

[Sarah Gibson Tuttle]

How?

[Asha Youmans]

You're not going to give us credit.

[Ali Frank]

Yeah. We got everything else we wanted, but that one thing that did not cost a dime, they would not bend on.

[Zibby Owens]

That's crazy.

[Ali Frank]

I know, I know. You walk away,

[Zibby Owens]

So you're just going to have to do another one and just show them.

[Asha Youmans]

Yeah. You ready?

[Ali Frank]

We keep trying. We keep. One day something will make it to a screen. Hopefully. Hopefully.

[Zibby Owens]

And what's your next project together? I'm sure you're already writing something else.

[Ali Frank]

Well, we, you know, it's interesting. You know this as well as anyone that it is. Every book is up and down, and we really are the book just before Run for your life, Callie Kingman, boss lady, which we absolutely loved and it is our best rated book and best reviewed book. But it didn't do as well in sales as our previous book and you're only as good as your last sales. So there's a lot of pressure. No pressure on you, you all, but kind of pressure to buy the book. But you know, our advice was with this book is to like really go out and try to make a huge splash, which is sort of funny for two kind of homebodies.

[Zibby Owens]

That's a lot of pressure. Yeah, it's not very nice.

[Ali Frank]

I know we've been doing our own

[Asha Youmans]

pr, so traveling this country on our. On our own dime. But it's our work and we believe in it more than anybody else. So we took up the challenge and we've been doing that.

[Ali Frank]

Yeah. So we're thinking and growing and deciding what the next step will be, but really taking the opportunity to love this book because I do think with all our other books we've been on, I mean, we've written five novels in eight years. So it's been this like, on to the next, on to the next. So I think we're taking a beat and enjoying this.

[Asha Youmans]

This is the first time we've really just been able to sit with the book for a while and really appreciate it and give it its time.

[Ali Frank]

Yep. Because I'm a little bit of a pressure cooker as a partner.

[Asha Youmans]

Oh my goodness. Yes. We probably get my new schedule as soon as I go back to the hotel.

[Zibby Owens]

And which of you or both of you or neither are runners?

[Asha Youmans]

Let me tell you, I will run if there's a large dog chasing me, but that's it. So if they're. And Allie is a tremendous. Not only runner and an athlete, but outdoors woman. She was a junior national ski champion.

[Ali Frank]

That was a long time ago.

[Asha Youmans]

A barrel horse. How do you say horse? Barrel racer.

[Ali Frank]

I was a rodeo queen. Yes, that's a Jewish rodeo queen. Uh huh.

[Asha Youmans]

So if you read any complaints about running and how much it sucks and it hurts and why are you doing. I wrote all those parts and the parts where our character learns from pushing herself through the tough times. That's Allie.

[Zibby Owens]

Anyway, I'm not doing that too funny. Okay, well, what advice do you have for aspiring authors, especially people who are thinking of teaming up with a friend or colleague to write a book?

[Ali Frank]

Well, I'll go first, then you go. We'll see if our advice is the same or different. You know, we've actually never been asked that question, which is super interesting. So on the teaming up with another author, I'm going to be completely honest, this was sheer dumb luck. I asked Asha to go to coffee with me, and I said, I have this story in my head about three generations of black women working in a private school in San Francisco. Do you want to write it with me? We were not English majors. We had never taken a creative writing course. I'd only read her narrative report cards she'd written. She'd only read my emails. As an administrator,

[Asha Youmans]

PA pages of emails.

[Ali Frank]

I was very thorough. And Asha said, sure. And 14 months later, we had our first book sold to Penguin Random House. And it just happened that my strengths are Asha's weaknesses and her strengths are my weaknesses. So we like to say, bad math, one plus one equals one good author. But how to do it? I think it's so unique to the people that are coming together. So we don't want to say there's. Or at least I don't want to say there's one right or wrong way. But I will say to any author who's out there, my advice is very similar to people who ask me about running because I am a runner. Is that whether running or writing, people like, oh, I did all the research, you know, and like, yeah, I figured out the right shoes to buy, and I've got the new Garmin watch. And, you know, I've been watching these YouTube videos on how to write. And I joined a class for writing seminar, and with both runners and writers, I'm like, that's awesome. Have you sat your ass in the seat and started writing? Because all those things are great, but they don't actually move the ball forward. They don't get you out the door to run. They don't get you in the seat to write. So just start doing it. Whether it's running, whether it's Cali, and the first five minutes that she runs, as she calls, like, the most unimpressive feat in sport ever. But, you know, the first five minutes of running, the first five minutes of writing, just do it. All those other things are just the accoutrement.

[Asha Youmans]

You have to be very close to the person you're writing with. I mean, this is. I put my heart on those pages, and I have to trust Ali to treat my heart gently, even though when she sends me a lot of her stuff, it has red lines through it. She tolerates that. You have to be willing to maybe lose a friendship, and if you're not willing to lose a friendship, don't write with a close friend. It can be tough, but I have become. You were talking about writing for On Being Jewish Now I've become part of her family over these years. I spoke at her daughter's Bat Mitzvah after she wrote that.

[Ali Frank]

Oh wait, I just have to not only did she speak, I just. I. Sorry, I have to list the story. She closed down the Bat Mitzvah with getting up and reciting Maya Angelou's Phenomenal Woman. It was awesome. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but it was awesome.

[Asha Youmans]

And figure out why you're doing it. If you write for yourself for the love of writing, great. If you write because you're going to change careers, make sure that you have a little savings under your belt. It is a privilege that I recognize that I can write full time. Most of my fellow writers have a 9 to 5 job and decide what you want to do with what you've written. If you want to chase a publishing contract, if you want to publish it on your own and just have a bound book that you can be proud of. If it's a story you want to just share with your family, but choose your reason why and stick with it.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you ladies. Thanks for coming on. Thank you Zibby. Thank you for listening. Listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbeowens and spread the word.

[Asha Youmans]

Thanks so much.

[Zibby Owens]

Oh, and buy the books.

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[Asha Youmans]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[Asha Youmans]

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[Zibby Owens]

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[Ali Frank]

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