Sarah Harmon (2:57)

Oh, thank you for having me.

Zibby Owens (2:59)

The title is so perfect. And one of the chapters in the scene, you explain why all the other mothers hate her. Why don't you jump in and explain both the reason for your title and what your whole book is really about?

Sarah Harmon (3:13)

Okay, well, I want to start, Zibby, by clarifying that this is not a memoir and the other mothers don't actually hate me. Sarah Harmon. This is the story of a washed up girl band singer in her early 30s, 30s, who suddenly has to become a detective when her beloved 10 year old son becomes a suspect in his classmate's mysterious disappearance. And I was really intrigued by the idea of an unlikable main character. And I think the heroine of this story, Florence Grimes, really fits the bill. You know, she's not your typical PTA mom. She's not even maybe necessarily a good mom. And I think one of the things I wanted to grapple with in the story was like, can you be a bad person and still be a good mom? I think the jury's still out.

Zibby Owens (4:04)

I guess it. I guess the big question is like, what does it even mean to be a good mom? Right? Is it devotion, time spent, attentiveness? Like, what does that even mean?

Sarah Harmon (4:14)

There's a lot of ways to measure it.

Zibby Owens (4:16)

Yeah, I was actually, when you said it wasn't a memoir, I was thinking, would I be more likely to buy a memoir or a novel with this title? And then I was thinking, no, I think a novel is better. Because if all the other mothers really hated someone, maybe I shouldn't be, like, jumping on the bandwagon. Anyway, it doesn't matter.

Sarah Harmon (4:31)

I'm now bracing for other mothers I know to be like, well, I hate you. So, yeah, I mean, I'm putting myself out here and boldly claiming they don't actually hate me, but I don't know.

Zibby Owens (4:40)

Yeah, maybe. We'll see what happens. I'll be staying tuned. So this novel first won the Lucy Cavendish Prize, right? When did you write this? Take me back through the timeline of everything.

Sarah Harmon (4:51)

Okay, basic, this is what happened.

Zibby Owens (4:54)

Thank you. Thank you. Break it down like baby steps here.

Sarah Harmon (4:57)

I lost my job. I was in London on a Tier 2 visa, and I had been an English major at School and I had worked as a journalist and I always had this fantasy that I'd love to write a novel, but I had small kids and I had a job and I didn't have time. When I left my job in journalism, I was like, oh my God, I have no excuse not to do this now I have to just do this thing that I always told myself I would do if only I had enough time. It was really scary because when you do the thing you've always dreamed of, there's like a chance you might fail and then you've failed at your like plan B that you're holding on to as you're like precious. Well, I could always, you know. And so I had, I basically tried to do everything else before I wrote this novel. Like I was looking at going back to school to become a chartered surveyor, which is like a special kind of British building inspector. And finally I realized like, if I don't do this, I'm just, I'm never going to be happy and nothing else is going to make me happy. And even if I fail, I want to try. So this is my trip. Try putting it out there in the world. Feels scary, but maybe not as bad as not doing it in the first place.

Zibby Owens (6:06)

Well, you didn't fail and you won the prize. You had bidding wars for the book. It's now being adapted by fx. I feel like this is pretty much a success. This is as successful pre launch as you can pretty much get.

Sarah Harmon (6:20)

I won't lie. I had the full Cinderella experience that you dream about when you write a debut novel. And I didn't even know that half of this stuff was possible. And it's been wonderful. Yeah, I just feel so lucky. If it doesn't go any further than this, I'm just, I'm thrilled to death.

Zibby Owens (6:37)

By contrast, FYI, I wrote my first novel after business school and it did not sell. And that was my plan B. And I was like, oh, okay, now what?

Sarah Harmon (6:47)

But that's how I felt after I left my job, you know, like that was my first plan to like be a globe trotting journalist. And when that didn't work out, I was also like, oh God, like now what? And I think it's a feeling also that I tried to bring into the book of. I think a lot of women go through that. Like, what happens when plan A doesn't work out and your life looks nothing like you dreamed it would and you still have like 50 more years probably to be alive and you have to think of something else to do with all of your time.

Zibby Owens (7:14)

So funny. So your character is a former pop star of Girls Night. And she's so funny because she's a mom who, like, doesn't want to get out of bed to take her kid to school. And she's doing up to all sorts of antics and bathrooms and parties and, you know, just not. Not squeaky clean by any stretch. And yet you showcase her mama bear instincts early on when we find out. And I feel like it's not giving anything away since it's like, I don't know, page 60 or something, but when a child goes missing from the school and all the parents, like, congregate outside and she is just like, I'm not waiting to find out if my son Dylan is okay. I'm going in. Which, by the way, I loved. My kids school did have a lockdown thing and I heard about it and I was like, oh, I'm going and I'm gonna barge in and like, I don't care. Anyway, it ended up being fine. But I. Everybody knows those instincts, right? Where you're just like, yeah, you want to tell me to stay away from my kid? I don't think so.

Sarah Harmon (8:13)

Yeah, I think the instinct thing that you said is just exactly the right word. Like, it is just instinct. And whether you think it's like, love or evolutionary biology, like, I think it's something that certainly all parents can relate to, but I think anyone who like it doesn't have to be a parent relationship. Like, the person that you love the most in the world and would do anything for. When you look at. And the question at the heart of the story is, like, how far would you really go for the person you love? Like, what rules are you willing to break to protect them and to make sure that they're okay and, you know, no spoilers. But, like, the protagonist of this story goes pretty far. And I think readers might have some thoughts about how far she goes. But it's funny, in talking to other mothers, so many of them have said, you know, I would do the same. Like, I don't approve of what she did, but I understand the impulse because she goes a lot further than just storming into the school. Yes.

Zibby Owens (9:06)

That was just the beginning. The beginning of. Yes. Because as you write so in such a funny, like, subversive way, it's, you know, when you find a journal and, like, all these clues just keep coming and, like, what do you do with this information and how do you find your way through? Especially when, like, you're hungover and you're young and, you know, because your character is 31. Right. I mean, this is not. Like, I'm 48. Oh, my God, I couldn't even remember. Right. And, like, you know, being a young mom versus, like, a more seasoned mom, like, you Forget how young 31 is. So young. You're like a baby. And yet you have this. All of this responsibility dumped in your lap. Like, it's a lot to navigate. Like, your brain has basically just stopped growing yourself.

Sarah Harmon (9:53)

Absolutely. And I think, you know, I think that that allows us, I hope, to, like, give the protagonist some grace, because she is. I mean, certainly she's younger than me, but I' I look back now at the things that I was doing in my 20s and think, like, oh, yikes, that's no good. And I think having to juggle those responsibilities, whether you're a young mom, an older mom, more of an auntie type, people have a lot going on in their lives. Life is a lot. And this character is definitely going through it. Grappling with her responsibilities and also her own desires and how to meet her own needs while still being a mom. Right.

Zibby Owens (10:31)

To which there is no answer. That is a question. The ever unanswerable question.

Sarah Harmon (10:37)

I don't think it's a spoiler to say this book does not solve that conundrum.

Zibby Owens (10:42)

Yeah. No returns, please. Thank you very much. In the book, there's a scene where her mom takes her and her sister to lunch and explains why she's picking them up and dropping them in the UK and into a whole new life. How did you end up in the uk and was that any glimmer into your own life?

Sarah Harmon (11:01)

No, I moved to the UK for a job. My employer sponsored my visa. I came here as an adult in 2018, and I love London. And even after I left the job, I was like, oh, my God, I have to find a way to stay here because I just love this city. Take me out in a body bag. I want to be here forever. But I was on a Tier 2 visa, which means my employer had sponsored it, so it was difficult to find a way to stay in the country. But I think I've managed it now. And I actually just took my life in the UK test because I've been here long enough that I'm eligible for British citizenship.

Zibby Owens (11:40)

Wow.

Sarah Harmon (11:40)

And it's really difficult. Like, you have to know so much about the Tudors, the War of the Roses, like, things that certainly I did not learn in American history. But, yeah, I'm in it to win it now. I really love London.

Zibby Owens (11:53)

Amazing. That's awesome. When you went to write the book, how, how did you go about it? You decided this is your plan B, you're gonna just do it. But what happened then? Did you outline this book? Did you just start writing? Like, how did you get this done?

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Sarah Harmon (13:46)

Yeah, I love talking about this because I, I did it the complete wrong way. Zibby. Like if I was doing a book now, I would like, sit down with an idea and come up with an outline and like a writing schedule. And I did not. I, like, in a fit of desperation, sat on my floor and wrote the first, I don't know, five or 6,000 words, maybe 10,000 words. And then got to this point where I was like, wait, but how does this all come together? And it's a mystery and like, so I had like characters in a setting and then I had to sort of take a step back and be like, okay, I know the world, I know what's going to happen. Bold strokes and really plot it out. And I think it's important for readers with a mystery to have or, you know, a thriller. Like, there has to be a payoff. The end needs to feel satisfying, but also there has to be enough sort of clues that you feel like you've had the opportunity to potentially figure it out yourself as a reader. And so I wanted to be really intentional about that because I don't know about you, but, like, I hate an ambiguous ending. I feel like life is just full of ambiguity. And I don't go to literature for ambiguity. Tell me who did it and why and how. Like, was it Colonel Mustard in the sitting room with the candlestick? I just want to know. So I did plot it very carefully once. I had sort of created the world, and I wrote the beginning and then I wrote the end, and then I kind of went back and wrote the middle. And there's a reason that the books don't tell you. Yeah, write the beginning and then the end and then the middle, and, like, make your outline halfway through. But when you're writing your first novel, you are teaching yourself how to do it. And I had to give myself a lot of grace because the perfectionist in me wanted to sit down every day and write the 1,000 words that Stephen King told all aspiring writers that we should write per day. And it didn't work out like that for me. You know, I had small kids, and so some days I wrote 50 words, some days I deleted 200 words. And those were the bad days when you end up with less word count. But I just kept telling myself, like, God, if I can keep going and get to, like, 60,000 words, at some point, I'll have enough that I can then go back and reshape it. And I spent a year writing, and I want to say close to a year editing before it was, like, in any shape to show anyone. And I think that editing phase is really, really crucial and maybe an area where some writers feel inclined to, like, debut writers. You want to rush it, and you're like, I've worked on this for so long, and you want to share it. And everyone that I talked to really encouraged me, like, no, take that time to edit it. And I'm so glad that I got that advice, because I think it's much better for having percolated for a little longer.

Zibby Owens (16:20)

That is good advice. Yes. There's this pressure, like, oh, my gosh, I better get it out there. What if somebody has the same idea? Like, what if the market shifts? What if people don't want to read thrillers anymore? What if I better just like, you know, it doesn't matter that I haven't even like, you know, spell checked. Let me just send it out, you know, because sometimes we get submissions like that.

Sarah Harmon (16:38)

Well, and also you're like, God, I haven't worked in two years. Like, I need to sell something.

Zibby Owens (16:42)

Like, I need that too.

Sarah Harmon (16:43)

Like, you know, there's, there's. It's a job. Right. Like, I felt a lot of pressure to make it work. But yeah, you can't rush these things. And it needs. As long as it needs. And that's very hard to accept if you're impatient like me.

Zibby Owens (17:00)

Me too. So when you were writing it or dreaming it up or even just like sitting on the floor typing it up and hoping it turned into a book, are there books that you have loved or that you're like, I see this as fitting in with this crowd of books that are on my shelf that I'm like obsessed with or I want to feel the way I felt when I finished XYZ book. Were there any books like that?

Sarah Harmon (17:22)

Oh my God. Like, yes, absolutely. I love this question. Okay, so I love Gone Girl and I realize that's not like an original answer and that's like the most popular.

Zibby Owens (17:31)

It doesn't matter.

Sarah Harmon (17:32)

I love that book and I've probably read it five times. And I'm just. Every time I'm like, it was the first book that made me realize that a thriller can also be like a scathing social commentary. And I loved the Reveals. And yeah, so that book was at the front of my mind. And I also just, you know, I grew up, I'm a millennial, reading a lot of like first person women's confessional, like exo, Jane, Jezebel type media. And I loved that voice. And so I wanted to try and do like a mystery that was in that voice in the first person, very close. Which is hard for a mystery because you're really limiting your perspective if you only have one person. And I put it in the present tense for some reason, which is just like I was trying to make it difficult for myself. So I wanted to combine sort of like a character driven mystery with a thriller pacing and reveals and. Yeah, I mean, I also love sorrow and bliss like that the way that. So funny. But it's about such a serious topic. I really admire that. Oh, I'm just, I'm gonna forget things. But yeah, those were two of my favorites that I was thinking of like funny character but also payoff and thriller in the end.

Zibby Owens (18:47)

I love that. And by the way, There is no judgment. Like, nobody ever has to qualify a book that they love or that inspires them or whatever. Like, we all love books. I mean, Gone Girl did well because it was so popular, because it was awesome.

Sarah Harmon (19:00)

And yeah, Jillian Flynn is the master. And I just feel like it's become cooler to like, like her other books more and be like, well, actually, you know, sharp object. But I, I love Gone Girl. I love the popular one.

Zibby Owens (19:13)

Amazing. Now that you wrote this book in whatever style that you don't like that you wrote. Not style, method, whatever. Are you going to write another book and then how are you going to approach it? Or are you going to trust your method and just try it again this way?

Sarah Harmon (19:27)

Yeah, it's so interesting because I've been working on the screen adaptation for F, so I wrote the pilot and that's such a formal structure that you, you have to be very disciplined. And also there's a lot more people involved. Right. So it's like, here's the outline, here's how we're gonna approach this scene. Here are the list of scenes. And I can see the advantages of plotting a novel in that way and being very methodical. And when I sit down to write, I just can't do it. It's like, if I know what's gonna happen at the end when I start, I'm not interested. I have to surprise myself along the way. So I do think there is a place for planning. But for me, those first like 10,000 words where you're just like having fun and it could still be, you know, the best thing you've ever written, it's just so exciting. And I, I like having that element of the unconscious coming out to surprise you. So, yeah, I have not taken my own advice to answer your question.

Zibby Owens (20:28)

Still. Okay. Not to name any names or be too specific, but are there any moms who have done things that you're just like, oh, no, not acceptable. I can't believe she did that. Like anything in the back of your head.

Sarah Harmon (20:44)

I mean, I don't want to out anyone.

Zibby Owens (20:48)

Okay. Okay.

Sarah Harmon (20:49)

I think anyone who is in a mom's or a parent's WhatsApp group for their kids school has seen some examples of behavior that are probably not people operating in their finest moments. And I think there's something about modern parenthood that brings that out. There's an anxiety that I think, you know, I'm in my late 30s now. My life is not as comfortable as my parents lives were. And I don't expect that my kids will have greater security than I've had unless I'm able to somehow help them. And I think there's sort of an undercurrent of that running through the culture where there is this real anxiety that, like, things aren't getting better for most people. And if you want your kids to be okay, you have to do a lot more than you used to. Like, when I was growing up in the 90s, we just, like, watched Nickelodeon all the time. Like, I don't remember doing a lot of enriching activities. My kids are in, like, piano chess. Like, you know, it's just a different time. And I think that feeling that, like, I have to compete with my sharp elbows or else my kid's not going to be okay is something that a lot of parents can relate to and also something that, yeah, is a theme of the book.

Zibby Owens (22:08)

Love it. Oh, my gosh. Amazing. Okay, so what advice do you have? We've already given lots of advice, but aspiring debut authors, aside from taking your time, which I completely agree with, and really editing it to make it as good as you possibly can, what else?

Sarah Harmon (22:24)

Okay, I have to take a step back and be like, someone who's written one book should not be handing out advice left and right. And probably I've given enough advice, but I will. I will say this, which I wish I was able to hold more closely to my heart, which is, don't compare yourself to other people. Like, don't go on Instagram and look at what other people are doing. Delete Instagram. Just don't compare yourself. And that's advice for writing and for life. And I think it's so hard when you're starting out. You have to sort of compare yourself because you're like, well, what's even possible? Like, what's out there as a path? And who could I sort of aspire to be? But it really will kill your joy, like, faster than anything. So delete Instagram. And if you have to be on it, like, don't compare yourself to what people are doing on there. It's not real life. That's probably my best, best advice.

Zibby Owens (23:14)

On the other hand, I like your Instagram account, so there you go.

Sarah Harmon (23:18)

I'm gonna tell my publisher you said that. Okay.

Zibby Owens (23:21)

Thank you.

Sarah Harmon (23:21)

Thank you.

Zibby Owens (23:23)

Well, Sarah, I'm really excited for you. I'm excited because the book is so fun and awesome and raises so many issues, but also that it shows that you can just do what you've always wanted to do and that sometimes it works out. And you know what? That's inspiration that a lot of people need like it can work out. There is the Cinderella story, as you said. And the point is, if you're having fun and writing what you love, good things can happen.

Sarah Harmon (23:51)

If it could happen to me, it could happen to you. So just keep going. Finish your draft. You can do it.

Zibby Owens (23:56)

Well, I will be cheering along. I can't wait to watch it when it comes out on fx and excited to see what you write next and all the rest. So congratulations.

Sarah Harmon (24:05)

Thank you, Sibby. This was so fun. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Zibby Owens (24:07)

Okay, me too. All right. Thank you, Sarah. Okay, bye.

Sarah Harmon (24:10)

Bye.

Zibby Owens (24:11)

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby formerly Moms don't have time to read books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review. Follow me on Instagram, ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

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Zibby Owens (24:40)

Over.

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Zibby Owens (25:03)

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Sarah Harmon (25:35)

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

Zibby Owens (25:42)

Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves.

Sarah Harmon (25:48)

I'm Paige desorbo. I'm Hannah Burner. Welcome to the squad. Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time. But of course we can't be managed. So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.

Zibby Owens (26:14)

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.