Sarah Mlynowski, UPSIDE-DOWN MAGIC and WHATEVER AFTER series

Summary

Podcast Summary: Totally Booked with Zibby – Episode Featuring Sarah Mlynowski

Episode Overview In this compelling episode of Totally Booked with Zibby, host Zibby Owens engages in an insightful conversation with Sarah Mlynowski, a prolific young adult and middle-grade novelist. The discussion delves into Sarah’s extensive writing career, her creative processes, the inspirations behind her popular book series, and her perspectives on writing for different age groups. This episode offers aspiring writers and avid readers alike a deep dive into the mind of a successful author who seamlessly blends magic and reality in her storytelling.

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Guest Introduction: Sarah Mlynowski Zibby Owens introduces Sarah Mlynowski as a highly accomplished author with an impressive bibliography, including the beloved Upside-Down Magic and Whatever After series. Sarah’s background as a Canadian residing in New York City, coupled with her active role as a mother and educator, provides a rich foundation for her engaging narratives. Zibby highlights Sarah’s dedication, noting, “That’s right... [Sarah has] been producing so many books” (04:27).

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Writing Process and Productivity Sarah elaborates on her disciplined approach to writing, emphasizing that writing is a full-time job for her. She maintains a structured schedule, working diligently from her office to balance writing, publishing, and promotional activities. Sarah shares her goal of writing approximately 2,000 words a day and explains her methodical outlining process:

“I always have the concept from the beginning... I always have that one scene in my head, and then I'll go from there.” (07:31)

Her meticulous outlining involves creating detailed chapter-by-chapter plans, which enables her to write efficiently without succumbing to writer’s block. Sarah’s strategy includes setting small, manageable goals, such as focusing on a single chapter at a time, which fosters consistent productivity.

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Evolution of Magical Elements in Her Books Sarah discusses the gradual incorporation of magic into her work. Initially writing realistic fiction, she transitioned to integrating magical elements to add depth and intrigue:

“Magic is kind of fun, especially if I set it in a real world with just a twist of magic.” (09:36)

This evolution reflects her growing interest and comfort with fantastical themes, leading to the creation of the Whatever After series, which reimagines classic fairy tales with modern twists, and the Upside-Down Magic series, set in a magic school where students possess unconventional magical abilities.

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The Whatever After Series In the Whatever After series, Sarah reinterprets traditional fairy tales, granting her characters agency and contemporary relevance. She explains her intent to empower young readers, particularly girls, by redefining the roles typically assigned to princesses:

“I wanted to teach her that she doesn't have to wait for a prince to come and save her... she has to have agency.” (17:23)

Each book presents a familiar fairy tale altered by the protagonists’ actions, fostering themes of self-reliance, bravery, and kindness. For instance, in Two Peas in a Pod, the protagonist Abby struggles with fear while adapting to life as a princess, ultimately finding strength and confidence.

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The Upside-Down Magic Series The Upside-Down Magic series introduces readers to a magical school where students’ powers don’t quite fit the norm. Sarah describes the protagonist, Nori, a "fluxer" whose magic is unpredictable:

“Her magic is a little bit wonky... she turns into a kitten with a little bit of dragon in it.” (10:29)

Co-written with Emily Jenkins and Lauren Myracle, the series explores themes of acceptance and individuality. Sarah compares the series to iconic works like Harry Potter but emphasizes its unique focus on characters whose magical abilities are unconventional, highlighting personal growth and friendship.

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Writing for Teens: Bridging the Generation Gap Addressing the challenge of writing authentically for a teenage audience, Sarah shares her strategies for maintaining relevance without losing her authentic voice:

“I try to in my head be still the 17-year-old that I was and try to write about those emotions because slang and everything is going to change every year, but angst is angst.” (12:30)

She stays connected to the teenage experience by engaging with current social media trends and maintaining a genuine understanding of adolescent emotions. This approach allows her to create relatable characters and scenarios that resonate with young readers.

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Personal Inspirations and Family Influence Sarah’s personal experiences significantly influence her writing. Reflecting on her own adolescence, she connects her past to her storytelling:

“When my parents left, I was left on my own... that was the heart of the story.” (20:07)

Her relationship with her husband, whom she met at 17, serves as a model of chosen family, enriching her narratives with themes of support and belonging. Additionally, Sarah plans to honor her grandparents’ Holocaust survival through future writing projects, indicating a desire to explore diverse and profound themes.

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Future Projects and Aspirations Looking ahead, Sarah expresses ambitions beyond novel writing. With the Upside-Down Magic series optioned by Disney, she aims to explore television and film adaptations. She also aspires to write picture books and delve into historical stories, such as recounting her grandparents’ Holocaust experiences. These goals demonstrate her commitment to expanding her storytelling repertoire and addressing a variety of genres and audiences.

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Advice for Aspiring Writers and Parents Sarah offers valuable advice for both writers and parents encouraging literary creativity:

“Encourage your kids to read everything, not just one type of book... keep a journal.” (25:44)

She emphasizes the importance of diverse reading experiences and consistent writing practices, such as journaling and writing short stories. For parents, fostering an environment that supports exploration and creativity is crucial for nurturing future writers.

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Closing Thoughts The episode concludes with Sarah reflecting on her writing journey and the continuous evolution of her craft. Her dedication to storytelling, coupled with her ability to adapt and innovate, positions her as a significant voice in young adult and middle-grade literature. Listeners are left inspired by her passion and practical insights into the writing process.

Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Mlynowski on Writing Process:
  “I always have the concept from the beginning... I always have that one scene in my head, and then I'll go from there.” (07:31)

• Sarah Mlynowski on Empowering Characters:
  “I wanted to teach her that she doesn't have to wait for a prince to come and save her... she has to have agency.” (17:23)

• Sarah Mlynowski on Writing for Teens:
  “I try to in my head be still the 17-year-old that I was and try to write about those emotions because slang and everything is going to change every year, but angst is angst.” (12:30)

• Sarah Mlynowski on Family Influence:
  “When my parents left, I was left on my own... that was the heart of the story.” (20:07)

Timestamp Reference:

• MM:SS

Note: Times are indicative and correspond to the transcript provided.

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This episode of Totally Booked with Zibby offers a rich exploration of Sarah Mlynowski’s literary world, providing listeners with both inspiration and practical advice. Whether you're an aspiring writer, a parent fostering creativity in your child, or simply a fan of magical storytelling, this conversation delivers meaningful insights and engaging narratives that underscore the power of imagination and perseverance in the world of literature.

Transcript

[Zibby Owens]

We will be re airing some episodes by authors from this podcast whose homes have been lost in the horrific fires in Los Angeles. We hope that hearing from these authors makes this tragedy feel a bit more personal and real for those who have not experienced it directly and provides a sense of comfort to those who have lost everything. At Zippy's Bookshop in Santa Monica, we are giving away books to anyone affected. We are giving away clothing from 30 brands who have donated their merchandise. We know both of these things are small comfort to the thousands of people who are now homeless, but we are trying to do some good amid the destruction. I hope you understand that I am not recording new podcasts right this second as I am struggling to deal with the fires myself. Our home was saved by by firefighters in the Palisades, but so many loved ones have lost everything and our community is rallying to help. Therefore, I will be airing some older episodes of those who have lost their homes, interspersed with episodes that I have already recorded. I will be back to podcasting as soon as I can put on a happy face and really support the authors as I have been doing for the last seven years. Thank you for understanding. I hope you all are safe.

Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling buzziest or underrated authors and story creators whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbemedia.com and follow me on Instagram ibyoans hi everybody.

This is one of the Replay bonus.

Episodes to get you through the holiday season. Maybe you missed some. There have been over 2000 episodes. We are going into a rebrand where we're going to be changing the name of the podcast from Moms don't have.

Time to Read Books to Zibby's Podcast.

So that is happening in the new year. In the meantime, have a listen, enjoy and let me know what you think.

[Sarah Milnowski]

Bye.

[Zibby Owens]

Hi, I'm Zibby Owens and this is.

[Sarah Milnowski]

Moms don't have Time to Read Books.

[Zibby Owens]

As a mom of four kids in New York City and a writer myself, I know all too well how short everyone is on time.

[Sarah Milnowski]

So so I'm here to help. I'm going to interview authors and writers of all types about their work, especially as it relates to parenting and family issues. Hopefully you can listen while doing 8.

[Zibby Owens]

Million other things and fall in love with these talented scribes and their fantastic.

[Sarah Milnowski]

Books, essays and songs like I have.

[Zibby Owens]

Plus, get some tips on surviving parenthood.

[Sarah Milnowski]

For more about me, you can check out my [e-mail] Today's episode of Moms don't have Time to Read Books is sponsored by Chloe's Fruit, the cool Way to Eat Fruit. You can check them [e-mail] really excited to be with Sarah Milnowski today. Sarah is an amazingly prolific best selling young adult middle grade novelist. She was born in Canada and now lives here in New York City. For anyone listening with school aged children who might have heard a lot about Abby and Jonah's adventures, Sarah is the author of the Addictive Whatever after book series. The latest release, which I just finished with my daughter, is called Two Peas in a Pod. Sarah also writes the Upside Down Magic series about wonky magicians who are flickers, flares and flexers and just can't seem to get their magic right. As if that weren't enough, Sarah has written a Magic in Manhattan series for teens which started with a book called Bras and Broomsticks. And she has written a few late teenage books like 10 Things We did and Probably shouldn't have, which I can't put down even though I'm not a teenager. And a Few Adults for a Few Adult Novels for adults as well. Not adult novels. In her spare time, when she's not on a book tour, Sarah goes to schools and gives 45 minute presentations that inspire kids to write. And she's a wife and a mom herself. Welcome to Sarah.

Thank you for having me.

Okay, your bio is insane. It took me 20 minutes to count up all the books you've written on your website. I counted 35. That's right.

That seems about right.

How and when are you writing all of these books?

Writing for me is a full time job, so I'm in the office every day from nine to five and I'm working on books and I'm writing and I'm producing and I've been doing that for probably since the year 2000 now. So that's how I produce so many books.

Okay, so 18 years of 35. So two a year.

About two to three a year. When I wrote adult, which is what I started off doing, I started with one book a year. And then now that I write for middle grade readers, they're much, much shorter so I could produce more. So I probably now write between three and four a year.

Amazing.

Thank you.

And on your website, in your FAQs, which were fantastic and so detailed, I was like, I don't even need to ask her anything today. I can just read this website. You say you mostly write from your desk at home because you don't want to be distracted. Is that what you do?

Clearly I need to update my FAQs because I have an office now. I've had an office for the past probably a year and a half and it's about 20 blocks from my apartment and I walk there and I do like a little bit of a closed door situation so I could focus on the writing. But so much of my day is not just writing. It's also, you know, changing my FAQs, hopefully, or doing promotion stuff. So there's so many different things that I do all day. But I do try to get a certain amount of words written every day.

Do you have a word goal?

My goal when I'm actually doing the writing is probably about 2,000 words. But I also, I'm a heavy outliner. So I, before I even start a project, I probably write about a 20 to 30 page outline and break up the book by chapter, by chapter. So I know exactly what's going to happen and that's where I do most of my work. So that when I'm writing the first draft, I'm almost on autopilot. Like I just kind of get in there and I know what's going to happen. So I never waste time with writer's block because I always know what's going to happen next.

Do you ever have an outline block?

No, I don't find outlines that hard. So maybe because I divide it up like that, I really don't. I just get in there and I work on the outline and I play with things. It seems less scary for me when it's just in an outline stage because I know the outline doesn't have to be perfect first it has to just be a first draft. And then I, you know, first draft of an outline and then I flesh it out. So really the way I've written so many books is I make really manageable walls for myself. I never sit down and think, okay, today I have to write a full book. It's always today I have to work on a page of the outline and figure out the first three chapters in the book. And then once I've done the whole outline, and I usually send it to my editor to approve it. Then I'll go in and I'll say, today I'm gonna write one chapter of the first draft. So I really, really set small goals for myself.

That's awesome. Actually, I'm interviewing tomorrow Charles Duhigg, who just wrote a book on how to be productive. That's exactly what he says. Yeah. More on that later. Stay. And when you sit down to write the outline, do you already have the general idea of what you want the book to be in your head?

Yes, absolutely. So I always have the concept from the beginning. So for the whatever after series, I'll figure out first, I'll say, I'll think, what fairy tale am I gonna do? What am I gonna mess up? And then I usually have a scene in my head, kind of like a set piece of how they twist the story. So in this series, Abby and her brother Jonah fall into different fairy tales, and every book, they fall into another one, and then they mess it up somehow in some pivotal moment of. So in the new one, in Two Peas in a Pod, Abby goes into the story of the Princess and the Pea, and she doesn't know she's in the Princess of the Pea right away. And she's offered to sleep, you know, to sleep over at this palace. And there are a hundred mattresses, and she realizes that she's in that story. But then, of course, when she climbs onto a bed of 100 mattresses, she cannot fall asleep because she's terrified of rolling over, as any human child would be. So I had that image in my head of just lying in bed on 100 mat versus being terrified and not being able to sleep all night. And then, of course, because she can't fall asleep, they think she's the princess the next day. So I always have that one scene in my head, and then I'll go from there. I'll think about also what I want to change in the original fairy tale. So once I have those two points, I'm able to weave the story together.

I love how Jonah was like, why are you more afraid to fall up high as down low? You never fall out of your bed. Normally it's the same size. I was like, true, but I would still be terrified. No, I love how you have everybody go back in time and change things. It's like Bill and Ted's adventure, like, Back to the Future, where you're like, no, no. You know everything. You know?

Yes, for sure.

So what's with all the magic in all your books. So you have obviously the whatever after where you change fairy tales. The Upside Down Magic series, which my son. I couldn't even read your latest book because he grabbed it from my hands. He was so excited to read it and, like, wouldn't put it down, which obviously, you know, so many kids are just obsessed with both series in so many different ways. How did you start spinning magic through all these different books? It's like magic is its own character.

Well, it's interesting because my first four books were for adults and they had no magic. They were very realistic fiction. They were in the Chiclet genre. That was back in the 2000s. And then I had this idea for a magic series. I wanted to write about a girl who finds out that her little sister is a witch and that she is not. And I just had that small idea and I thought, oh, you know what? Magic is kind of fun, especially if I set it in a real world with just a twist of magic. So that's how I started playing with magic in my writing. And then, yeah, it's built up. Every book, every series I write has more and more magic. Whatever after is completely in the fairy tale world. So there's tons of magic. And Upside Down Magic is a series set in magic school. So I definitely have increased the magicness of my novels, but I didn't necessarily set out to do that. It just kind of happened little by little.

Do you think that the characters in Upside Down Magic could sort of take on the Harry Potter class?

I think they would probably lose. The whole thing about outside magic is that the kids are. It's about a series where it's a world where everyone gets magic powers when he or she turns 10. But Nori, the main character, her magic is a little bit wonky. It's upside down. So she's a fluxer, which means she can turn into different animals. But because her magic is wonky, she instead of turning into a cat, she turns into a kitten with a little bit of dragon in it. So her magic is wonky. So she's sent to a school and to be in a class with other kids who also have upside down magic. So these kids in her class are all a bit wonky. Their magic is all a little bit off. And I think that's what really inspired us to write that story. And I say us because I co write that series with two of my good friends who are also novelists, Emily Jenkins and Lauren Myracle. And we really wanted to write a series where what if you get to go to Magic School. But then you discover that your magic is not as great as everyone else's or it doesn't work in the same way. And we wanted to write about the kid who has magic, but their magic is not the best. And what does that mean? And so that's why I think they may have some problems against Harry.

I love the image of the one of the boys, like hitting the roof repeatedly of the school bus because his magic makes him like have to fly up or something.

Yes. Yes. Andres.

Yeah.

Yes.

That's funny. So your teen fiction is also amazing. I feel like you're Judy Blume meets Sophie Cadilla.

I love that comparison.

Just talking about your voice is like just super relatable and spot on. But you're way out of your teens. No offense. I feel like Alexis, I feel like we're like the same age here. How do you write so well from that vantage point when you're not in it? Do you go out and talk to teens to pick up on how they speak or what social media they use? Like, how do you stay relevant, especially with such a hard to please, insular audience?

I mean, I do find it more challenging the older I get. I'll be honest, when I started off writing, I was in my 20s and it was much easier for me to channel that teenage voice. But I still try. I just try to in my head be still the 17 year old that I was and try to write about those emotions because slang and everything is going to change every year, but angst is angst and the emotions are constant. So that's really what I try to tap into when I'm writing for teens. I do definitely read a lot of social media and just try to make sure that I stay current. But you don't wanna stay too current when you're writing for teens in terms of the language, because that comes in and out. And I wrote Brows and Broomsticks, my first teen book, over a decade ago. And I remember talking about one song. There's like a Britney Spears song that no one listens to at this point. So you have to try to not be too current in your language or descriptions.

I saw on your website, you're like, you can find me on not just Twitter and Instagram. The things you could find you on I've never even heard of. What are these things? How is she on these things? What are they?

I joined MySpace earlier on. That's actually how I met Emily Jenkins and Lauren Myracle, my two Upside Down Magic Co writers. We met on MySpace on this teen lit group, which I don't even. Does MySpace still exist?

I'm not even sure. I'm not sure. I don't think so.

So that's how we even met. So I think I've always definitely been trying to stay current about what the new technologies and what teenagers are on. But, yeah, you have to try new things. Some things I love and stick to right away. Like, I still, you know, I do a lot of. I tweet a lot and I'm on Instagram a lot, and I'm on Facebook. And some I haven't necessarily figured out. I mean, I still can't figure out Snapchat fully. I know so many teenagers who are on it, but it just doesn't work for me. So I try to just use the ones that I enjoy.

That makes sense. My daughter asked me to ask you, how do you name all of your characters? And having pawed through all these books, you have so many different characters.

Have I named anyone the same thing?

That's not what I noticed. Is that your rule? Never do the same toy?

I try not to. At one point, I think it was in the fourth Magic in Manhattan book, my editor noted that I had another Chloe. And also that all of my last names ended with Ski or Berg or something. And I was thinking, oh, I may have been going through my yearbook. I went to a Jewish school, so I sometimes go through my yearbook and pick out names and kind of twist them up. So I definitely tried to be aware of that. But let's see. Well, whatever. After was a funny story. Because when I came up with the concept, I called it Farrah's Tales, and her name was Farrah. But then my editor felt that Farrah was. Sounded a bit dated and she wanted something a little bit more modern. So I changed the title of the series to Kerry Tales, and her name was Carrie. But depending where you are in the country, you're gonna pronounce Carrie differently. So then one of the people at Scholastic was named Abby. So I thought, well, what if we call it Abby Ever After? I like the way that sounded. And her name became Abby. And then we changed the series name to Whatever After. But at that point, I was sick of changing her name. So I left it as Abby. And the name Jonah just kind of came to me. I don't remember why. Maybe it was someone's kid or something that I said, oh, that's a nice name. And I just used it.

[Zibby Owens]

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[Sarah Milnowski]

In two peas in a Pod when you rewrite the Princess and the Pea fairy tale, you talked a lot about the qualities you felt like were important in a princess, that you didn't want the princess, like in the old fairy tale, to just be a delicate flower who can't even sleep on a pea, but instead has strength and is also kind and brave. And you show these examples of different girls who are all finalists in the contest, exhibiting all of these great traits. Are you trying to take on sort of the Disney princess vibe here and show what you think women and princesses ought to be? Is this some sort of big message or was it just fun for that part of that book?

I mean, it's not even the Disney princess vibe that's in the original story, the pea sleeping on the pea and making.

No, I mean your take on the story. Oh no.

Right. But for me, it's my take on just the whole fairy tale world. All the fairy tales. Because if you reread the original fairy tales, my characters always fall into the original fairy tales and not the Disney movie. Because I don't want Disney to sue me because I always write that's in public domain. So my characters always fall into the original fairy tale. And often the ending of the original fairy tales are also. Are pretty troubling. Like the fact that that's how they found a princess. They just. They wanted to choose a princess based on who was the most delicate is not the message that I want my girls to have. And that's pretty much the heart of this whole series. Like, when I started writing this, I loved fairy tales. I always loved fairy tales. As a kid, I used to fracture fairy tales also. I would tell the story of the princess and the pea, but it would be the princess and the M and M, because I was not a fan of vegetables and I like chocolate. But I always, always loved fairy tales. But when I had a daughter of my own and I would tell her these stories, I wanted to teach her that, no, she doesn't have to wait for a prince to come and save her. You know, that's not how she's going to get her happy ending. She has to have agency. She has to be empowered. She has to be the one to make the change in her own life. So that was really the message that I wanted to be in my books. And that's why when Abby falls into these fairy tales, she not only is the one who saves the day, but she also helps the princess realize what she can be on her own. And sometimes the princess gets married. I don't want to give away the endings of all the books. In some of the books, she realizes the prince is the right guy for her. And in some cases, she realizes that maybe she should get a job and then earn her own money. And then that's how she could move out of her stepmother's attic.

Tell me more about 10 things we did and probably shouldn't have. Your teen book, which I thought was just so awesome. Is this like modern day Forever? Is this like, what you're going for?

You know what I think when I write my teen stuff, I just usually have an idea and I just kind of explore it. For ten Things We Did. It's about a girl whose parents move away and she moves in with her friend. And that is the story that happened to me pretty much when I was. When I was 17, my mom had remarried and moved to Connecticut and my sister moved with her. And then my father had also remarried and moved for a job. And I did not want to leave Montreal, where I was. So for 12th grade, I ended up moving into my friend's Basement. And, you know, we paid her rent. And my friend's mother traveled a lot and so was in California for pretty much most of the year. So it was just the two of us in this house, living on her own for the first time. And I had never really done laundry before or my own laundry. I'd never just cooked my own dinner. So suddenly I was living this, you know, life, this adult life, while still being in the 12th grade. So that really was the heart of the story. And when I talked, when I first pitched it to my editor, you know, I said, it's going to be about the fun parties that she has. And my editor said, okay, Sarah, but it's not just about the fun parties. What about the feeling of abandonment? But your parents. What does it mean when your parents leave and you're left on your own? Of course there's fun, but there's also the flip side, the dark side of that. So it was a really interesting book for me to write, and I hopefully was able to show both sides of that.

Do you feel like that whole experience, in addition to just gaining you this fantastic book, how do you feel like having. Did you have to choose your parents? Like, how did that whole incident in your life affect sort of how you developed your own sense of family? And especially now as a mom, I mean, it's definitely.

It's made family extremely important to me, and I wanted to definitely have one of my own. And, I mean, I've been with my husband since we were 17. We started dating at 17. Yeah. So he. I actually met him that year that I was on my own, and he became my family in so many ways because, you know, his family, his parents were still in Montreal, and yet they just opened their arms to me. So while I was living on my own, I still would go over there for dinners and just feel like I was part of something. So that.

Was he like Noah, wasn't that the good one?

A little bit, yeah. Well, I'm trying to. I wrote that book. Now, was Noah the good one or the. I don't want to give anything up.

Okay, don't tell me the answer. So what is going to be your hit movie from all this?

What do you think? Well, Upset of Magic has been optioned by Disney, so they are developing right now, hopefully. And I don't know. I think what I'd like to do now in terms of next steps is for me to develop some of these books. I have so many books and so many ideas that I really want to see. Well, how do they Go on television or features or something like that. I really want to spend some time focusing on that now in the future.

Do you have one that you can see a main character? You have it all sort of in your head already, or are you just.

I mean, I could see 10 things we did as a TV show.

I think I almost went online to make sure it wasn't because I was like, I feel like I've seen this already.

I hope not. I think I like, I see London, I see France. That's another book I wrote about backpacking through Europe. And I could see that as a feature. It's about two girls backpacking. And it was a trip that I did when I was 19, I believe. And it was just so much fun, and I learned so much about myself also, you know, the theme of being on my own for the first time, I think is such an important theme in teen literature. So I've written about that in different ways, and I think those make great movies, too.

Is there anything you wish you did better?

So many things. Yes. Yes. In general, I always think I could do more than I can. So I'm often late with books. I just handed in something yesterday, which was probably due about a month and a half ago. So I'm always late on everything, especially with the books. And sometimes I have to bump books a year because I think, oh, for sure, I could write four books this year, but I can't actually physically write four books this year. So I had to push back the companion to IC London. I see France. I sometimes instead, like, I, for instance, when I'm invited to speak on television, I get very nervous and usually don't just come up with excuses why I shouldn't do it when I really should push myself to do that stuff because it's, you know, it's good practice and it's good publicity. But I usually just make up excuses as to why I can't do it. I shouldn't do that.

In addition to developing more for TV or film, what do you still want to accomplish?

It's a good question. I think at some point I'd like to write a picture book as well. I just keep getting younger and younger with my material, so maybe then I'll be bored. Books I'll be writing, I don't know. But I would like to write a picture book at some point. I'd like to write some sort of Holocaust story. My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. It's not really my brand. I write kind of female comedy action adventure books. But I think at some Point, I'd really like to slow down and focus on a different type of story to tell my grandmother's story. I don't know when that's going to be, but at some point. And then I'd also like to write a book about being a mom. I haven't. When I wrote for adults, I was writing about being the 20 something single woman. And I would like to at some point write about what it's like to be maybe a New York City mom.

Because there's lots of stories you can research me. That's great. What about any kind of advice you have for either writers out there or parents who have kids who want to be writers?

I would say encourage your kids to read everything, not just one type of book. Of course. You want them always reading, so you want them focusing on whatever they love. And I wouldn't ever tell them not to read a specific thing, but just to make sure that they're exploring all their options, like let them try mysteries or if they don't, let them try scary books or all different things so they can really figure out what they want to do eventually. I would also tell them to keep a journal. I kept diaries my entire elementary school life and I often go back and look through them. Oh, do you have yours too?

My daughter now, like, see, they're like, oh, anyway, sadly, sorry, I'm like turning around. My daughter now has playdates and she's.

[Zibby Owens]

Like, you want to come in and.

[Sarah Milnowski]

Read my mom's diaries? I'm like, stop.

No, I haven't let my daughter read them yet. But I think they'll probably get a kick out of that.

How old are your daughters?

My daughters are 9 and 5. So I think definitely keeping journals. I always advise that for practicing writing, but also so that they can go back and reread them later on. And I would say also to work on short stories and then maybe submit them to community journals or school journals. A lot of schools have their own. If they don't, then to talk about starting one. I think sometimes if a school doesn't have that available, then it's up to the student to say, it would be great if we had this. Can I work on it? I've done that before. In high school we started our own journal and we didn't have creative writing classes in high school, so we petitioned to have one and then we did. So I think a lot of it is either seeing what's available to you and otherwise starting it for yourself.

I have to just ask, what type of name is Milinowski? Now that I've typed it like 20.

Times, I mean, I guess it's Polish Jewish. So it's pronounced. It's pronounced Milinowski because it's a Polish couple. No, no, no, it's totally fine. I pronounce it differently all the time. It's unclear exactly how it's really pronounced. My father chanced pronounced it differently his whole life, so I kind of do too. I feel like as long as everyone makes an attempt to get all the letters in, then I'm cool with it. Sometimes people come up with different things. There's like a B in there suddenly that doesn't exist.

Just one last thing on the Upside Down Magic series. Are you. Do you have your kids in mind when you're writing these? Do you read them out loud to your kids or both? Not just Upside Down Magic, but both of these series is like, how do you. I mean, we talked about how you get into the teen mind, but getting into that grade school, is it your kids?

It was pretty much my voice. I think I go into my mind. I have a younger sister, not a younger brother, but I do channel that sibling relationship. And I do read them aloud. To Chloe, my older one. I started reading it to her when she. Her first day of kindergarten. I got my page proofs and we were on the train going uptown and I'd just gotten it and I said, do you want to hear it? And it was the first one that she did. And we read it all the way up and then all the way down. It was the first time I'd ever read my stuff out loud. And people always say, you should read your stuff out loud. And I never listened. But it is so helpful. I cannot recommend it enough. I found so many things in it, mistakes and changes. And just to have her real time reaction was fascinating. So that was really the first time I did it. So I just marked things up and I changed them. And now she reads. I read her all the page proofs. The page proofs are after. Once the book has gone to be edited, then it gets designed. It's called the first pass or the page proof. So it almost looks like pages in a book. And it's easy to read aloud and mark up the last one, though she asked. We were running late and she said, oh, I'll just take them to school and I'll mark it up for you. And that was kind of sad and also cute. I like her little smiley faces. Yeah.

So good. That was everything I wanted to know. I feel like we both speak so quickly get it all done. Anyway, thank you so much for chatting with me. And just a reminder, this episode was sponsored by Chloe's Fruit, the cool way to eat fruit. Check them [e-mail] and thank you again to Sarah.

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Thanks.

[Zibby Owens]

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.