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- [00:00]
LinkedIn Advertiser
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- [00:30]
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- [01:47]
Zibby Owens
Hi, this is Zibby Owens and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest best selling, buzziest or underrated authors and story creat whose work I think is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books so you don't have to stay in the know. Get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbemedia.com and follow me on Instagram. Iby Owens Sonja Walgar is the author of Lion. Sonja is a British American actress, writer and podcaster. Sonya began her career as A film and television actress in 1998 and is perhaps best known for her role as Penny Widmore in the ABC series Lost and later for starring as Molly Cobb in the Apple TV original For All Mankind. A student of English literature at Christ Church College at the University of Oxford and host of the literature podcast, Sonja is a longtime literary enthusiast whose debut novel lion is a work of auto fiction about her relationship with her father. Sonja is one of our featured authors at our Santa Barbara retreat March 28th to 30th. Welcome Sonia. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibby to talk about your absolutely stunning, beautiful book, Lion. Congrats.
- [03:20]
Sonja Walgar
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
- [03:23]
Zibby Owens
Oh my gosh, Sonia, this book was gorgeous. Like truly gorgeous. I. Every sentence was beautiful. I feel like you have taken me all over the place. I feel like I spent the summer in your grandparents apartment trying to figure out what to do with myself. I feel like I was sitting in your dad's place with his girlfriend, like wearing the sparkly gold shirt. Like I just. I feel like I have lived all of these experiences. It was so powerful. So well done.
- [03:51]
Sonja Walgar
Thank you. I'm so thrilled. I have goosebumps. That's just. That's all you hope for. It's just great.
- [03:57]
Zibby Owens
Oh well, you're a beautiful writer. Okay, why don't you tell everybody what this is about? And also it's being marketed as auto fiction. So maybe explain what autofiction is and what is real, what is not real and all of that.
- [04:11]
Sonja Walgar
Well, I hate the phrase autofiction. I think it sounds like a drive through it. Just so I'm anti that phrase, grab.
- [04:19]
Zibby Owens
A sandwich in a novel, see what happens.
- [04:22]
Sonja Walgar
But I'm fine with it. It's a work of fiction in which everything happened is my line on this book. So it a story about my dad who was a very charismatic, extraordinary guy who lived enough lives for multiple men and was the kind of, the kind of human you just you hope you sit next to at dinner or that maybe you have as a godfather, but not necessarily as your dad. You know, he was a Formula one racing car driver, he was a polo player, he was a serial lover of women. He was a cocaine addict, he went to jail, he took up skydiving. I mean these are just the headlines of the human that my, my father was. And he died. Spoiler. But he died very suddenly in an accident some years ago and seven years ago. And my kids were very little and they didn't know him. And so I Felt very strongly that I needed to write these stories down. They met him, but not that they would remember. And also because I have the most terrible memory. So I thought, God, if I don't write them down, I really won't remember them. So, so the, so the desire to write was. Was really out of that. And then as I started writing it was very clear to me that it was just needed to be a work of fiction. I didn't want to write a memoir. I didn't want to write. I didn't think anybody cared about some dude from Argentina and his wildlife. I didn't think anybody cared about me. And my other life is I'm an actress and I just was allergic to the idea of, you know, Penny from Lost tells all. None of these things were going to hold it. So sort of to subvert any expectations that might come with the word memoir, I just said it's just going to be fiction. And then I have huge license to breathe life into these characters to supplement what feels thin because as I say, my memory is lamentable. So that became the sort of working template for what the book would be interesting.
- [06:28]
Zibby Owens
So in scenes then, so did you make up, for instance, you have this beautiful scene where you are with your dad. He's with his new two year old daughter at the time and it's a very moving scene where she is pushing away his hand as he tries to reach for her. And you are saying, I've spent my whole life wishing that hand would reach out for me. And I was like, oh my gosh, talk about goosebumps. So did that not happen? I mean, not to not. It doesn't matter. I guess really it doesn't matter.
- [06:57]
Sonja Walgar
But it did happen and it happened over and over. And I think that's what the book is. In the same way that a poem is a sort of distillation of moments. You know, I think that's what the book is. That's why it's one of the many reasons I call it fiction. It's a crystallizing and a distilling down to the essence of things. So when I say it's a work of fiction in which everything happened. I know I sound sort of highfalutin with that or something, but I really can't be more accurate than that. It really is. Both things are true.
- [07:35]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, no, I understand. It's almost like a historical novel about your own life.
- [07:39]
Sonja Walgar
Yes, there you go.
- [07:41]
Zibby Owens
Something like that in the book. Yes. It's about your dad. Right. But it is so much more about you and your relationship to him, even though you take us back to his relationship with your mom and how their whole life started and her, like, deep disappointment and what it's like to get married at such a young age and all of that. But we take it all back to you as the child and the experiences that having a dad like that, specifically him, leads you to. You have a whole scene with. Not just a scene, like a whole section, I guess, about a boarding school classmate's father and how he was, I don't know, basically inculcating you into, like, some sort of a cult, essentially, that you narrowly avoided. And you're like, he was filling a need that you did not fill. So tell me about, like, that moment, for instance, and how you saw it then. And did that differ when you started writing about it? Were you then able to contextualize, or did you know all along?
- [08:40]
Sonja Walgar
No. It's a great question. I think. So much of this book, so much of writing for me. I've now written a second book. I'm halfway through my third. So much of writing for me is the process of finding myself out on the page, of actually realizing that this is what I think about something. Writing is really where I synthesize things and integrate them. I think, where I take disparate ideas and realize that it's not even conscious, the weaving of a thread. The thread is already there. It's just for me to lay it out on the page. And I think that was what lion was in lots of ways for me was less, you know, therapeutic or cathartic or something. None of which are bad words, but it was less that and more realizing that this was what I actually thought and that these were. And that, you know, I think you're so astute to point out that it isn't actually a book about my dad, although it purports to be. The question that I asked myself and that lion is the answer to was, what does it mean to have been this man's daughter? In what way has this man informed who I am, how I parent, what I. The choices I make? And I'm still and will be for the rest of my life because I will always be his daughter. I'm still in dialogue with that question. You know, I'm still holding that. That up to the light. There is still, you know, recent events. I just lost our home in the fires. You know, this. This becomes a whole nother piece where I'm like, wow, I. How would my dad react to this moment? Would my dad have chosen to live on the very edge of the wilderness in California with a high risk of fire. And here's me writing a whole book about how I chose. Have consciously chosen stability, not conformity, but carefully holding my family against chaos. And here I am, against everything I wanted, thrown into absolute chaos, literally two weeks before the launch of Lyon. It's an extraordinary time, and it makes me wonder if I have to write another book.
- [11:00]
Zibby Owens
Of course you have to write another book.
- [11:02]
Sonja Walgar
I mean, of course I have to write another book.
- [11:03]
Zibby Owens
Not like your fourth other book, but. I'm so sorry. I know we've discussed this in the past. I'm so sorry about the loss of your home, by the way. Nobody living in the Palisades or Malibu or any of the areas affected, particularly on the west side. I don't know as many people on these side, but nobody felt like they were living in a risky territory. Like, it felt like the most stable place, even though, like, I thought the biggest risk kind of was was earthquakes eventually. Right. And, like, yeah, they're always alerts, but. So I don't feel like that counteracts the narrative you tell yourself personally. Right, right. Because.
- [11:39]
Sonja Walgar
Right, okay. Very good.
- [11:40]
Zibby Owens
For all intents and purposes, like, Palisades was like 1950s life today. Right?
- [11:46]
Sonja Walgar
Palisades definitely was. We lived on a hilltop in Malvi.
- [11:49]
Zibby Owens
Oh, In Malibu. Okay.
- [11:51]
Sonja Walgar
It was a little more. There was more. More risk assessment involved. But anyway, it still felt very safe to me and no longer does. So there's an interesting. There's just an interesting question of what would my dad have made of this moment?
- [12:06]
Zibby Owens
I'm trying to think. I'm trying to think, knowing him from the book, what his response would be. But the one time that you really needed him, when your grandmother died. Right. He came running, and he was stable in that moment, and he was there for you. So I like to think that he would be on the next flight and he would be there and setting you up where you are.
- [12:26]
Sonja Walgar
He'd be totally there. And. Thank you. I love that you point that moment out, because it really mattered, that moment when. When my grandmother died and. And I said, for the first time in my life, I need you. And. And he. And he was there. And it was. It's a lovely moment to single out. And I done several interviews on this, and nobody's mentioned that, you know, because people get so fixated on his negligence and. And. Which is abundant. But the. But the rare moment where he. Where he could. Where he could offer that kind of solace was really lovely. It was a. Was a. Was Momentous.
- [13:00]
Zibby Owens
Yeah, well, and he even made it almost joyful, this, like, reunion with your aunts and everything. And he brought his sort of joie de vivre, if you will.
- [13:10]
Sonja Walgar
Yeah, exactly.
- [13:11]
Zibby Owens
Into the mix. You know, I think one thing that you point out in the book, which was such a sort of wise assessment and can affect. Can. Can summarize probably so many people who have. Have a parent or two who. Whose behavior is. Is perhaps not what they wanted, but that adrenaline seeking is completely the opposite of parenting. Right. He always was searching for the next high, whatever it was, and that sense of excitement. And you're like, ask any mom that. This is like the height of drudgery. Right. It's like the bedtimes and the baths and the bottles and the. Like, the. The amount of patience required cannot, like, if. If what you're seeking is constant stimulation. Like, this is not for you.
- [13:58]
Sonja Walgar
So true. Exactly. Yeah. No, I remember landing on that sentence and being like, oh, yes, that's right. Adrenaline is the opposite of parenting. The absolute opposite. Yeah.
- [14:10]
Zibby Owens
And not to defend your dad, but it seemed like it was. It could have. Jail could have been very easily avoided.
- [14:17]
Sonja Walgar
Right.
- [14:17]
Zibby Owens
He was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
- [14:20]
Sonja Walgar
Yes, it could. It just was, you know, yet another of. Of his poor risk assessment. And this living life like the sort of demigod that I think he thought he was and that others thought he was. It wasn't just his own delusion. There was collusion in that because he looked like a French movie. He looked like Alain Delon, my dad, or sort of a dark James Dean at these extraordinary cheekbones. And he was. I mean, really sort of empirically speaking, he was one of the most charismatic people you've ever met. People just leaned in. Dogs and animals would just come and literally eat from his hand. Little kids would come round kind of intrigued by him. He just had that kind of mesmerizing quality that meant, you know, even men were seduced by my dad. It's an interesting thing. I think they were threatened and irritated and combative. But largely, even in his lifetime, men that I talked to my dad, friends would talk about with sort of tenderness about him, there was such an agreement that this man was set apart in some way, and he just kept cashing in on that. And he was not. He was more human than any of us, if there is such a thing as to be more human than any of us, but he was eminently mortal.
- [15:47]
Zibby Owens
My goodness. Well, your life and your upbringing ended up being quite isolated at times. And you talk about how you felt, despite the fact that you had three sisters. And we learn about all these different, very interesting stories along the way, that you were an only child. And you say in context, in the context of raising your own kids, that you're. You ask your husband, like, is this right? Are our kids supposed to fight like this? Like, does this seem normal to you? And I found that so endearing, too, because, like, I always worry, you know, Like, I don't know, are they fighting too much? Is this when I'm supposed to back away? Like, do any of us even know? I don't know.
- [16:25]
Sonja Walgar
Okay, good. Are you an only child?
- [16:27]
Zibby Owens
No. I have a brother, but I still look at my kids and I'm just like, I don't know. Like, this seems pretty rough to me, but they say not to interfere, but I'm yelling at them anyway, so it's true.
- [16:39]
Sonja Walgar
Okay, well, I'm glad to hear that. I just assumed that it was the condition of being an only child, that you were just completely unequipped to deal with siblings. But I'm relieved to hear that it happens. To the best of it.
- [16:51]
Zibby Owens
How else do you feel that your dad's influence affects your parenting?
- [17:00]
Sonja Walgar
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- [17:30]
LinkedIn Advertiser
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- [18:01]
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- [18:45]
Sonja Walgar
I Mean, like I say, I think, you know, I look at. It's just so inextricable, isn't it, when you're in a. In a marriage? It's. It's. In some ways it's. It's easy to see, like, oh, well, I do this and he does that. And in other ways, you can't really tell whether you have assumed that role in the absence of the other person, your partner, providing that, you know, rigidity or sternness or whatever, Whether that is, were you on your own, would you be. Would I be more playful, more flexible, more those qualities? But it's such. There's such a symbiosis. Right. It's just so interesting to know what's the vine and what's the. The branch, if you like. You know, my husband is. Is. Tends to be the. The playful one, the one that wakes them up to show them a blood moon.
- [19:32]
Zibby Owens
He.
- [19:32]
Sonja Walgar
He. He tends to be the one that is, you know, delighting them, enchanting them with sort of interesting things. And we talk, slash bicker about it, where I'm like, but if I weren't keeping all the trains running and running all the meals and getting everyone to school, I too might show them a blood moon. Truthfully, I don't know if I would. But it's hard to know where you're reacting to the partner you're with and where you are bringing your intrinsic self and the way that you were parented, you know, I was parented by an extremely. Both overwhelmed and very competent mum, single mom, essentially, with this sort of intermittent, dazzling beam of my dad. But we can't really call that parenting. That was more like a visitation or something. So I inherit from my mom sort of extreme competency and. Which doesn't always allow for the. The sort of delightful, Delightful part. And sometimes, you know, I took my daughter to London recently to visit my mom and it was just us on our own for a week. And I really got a taste of like, oh, this is. This is delightful. This is so enjoyable. I'm not. Because it's just me and her and we're not wrangling the little guy. And I'm not prodding my husband to remind him to do this or that because it was the two of us. There was an element. There was a blood moon element of ease and of me being much more pliant than I. Than I sort of usually am. And that was interesting to me. I was. That felt like a revelation that perhaps intuitively I might not have arrived at.
- [21:12]
Zibby Owens
Interesting. Yeah, I get that too. When it's like one kid and you're not at home and nothing is taken care of and you go out to dinner and you're like, oh, this isn't so hard. What's the big deal? You're like, oh, it's because I'm on vacation. Can I just like, read a passage or two, please?
- [21:28]
Sonja Walgar
I'd love it. Okay.
- [21:30]
Zibby Owens
This is all just to show how amazing of an author you are. And I want to talk about sort of how you came into your writing style. My stepmother slips on her dark glasses. My adopted sister dozes in her mother's lap. I pull out my book. I read Uncle Tom's Cabin at the top of Machu Picchu. There is a photo of me reading it. I am wearing a brown poncho and a cowboy hat. I am sitting cross legged. I read about escape and the white man's dominion over brown bodies while sitting on the top of a mountain to which, centuries earlier, more brown bodies fled to escape the white man's fist. But I know none of this. I only know how to plunge my pain like a hot blade into the cool depths of the written page. I know how to submerge and disappear. And every book I ever read has opened its pages to me with the promise that it will hold me, it will never abandon me, it will never let me go. My father returns empty handed. He does not speak to anyone for the rest of the evening in silence. We ride down that mountain, slide back to the hotel, to our rooms. He holds silence like a lost fortress and we wander around his ruin. Oh, so good.
- [22:34]
Sonja Walgar
Thank you.
- [22:35]
Zibby Owens
So good. I mean, the analogies I was trying to analyze, like what makes your sentences so deeply powerful. I think it's the many analogies that are like, not expected. Like holding something like a fortress or having like the air feel like corduroy or flannel or. You said something about like the flannel feeling air. I'm like, oh, I know what she means when air feels like a flannel shirt. Like, yes, but you don't think about it like that. So tell me a little bit about, like, how you became the writer that you are and how you developed the style, which is really poetic.
- [23:10]
Sonja Walgar
Thank you. I honestly credit just years and years of reading. I mean, you know, my mum was a nursery school teacher. And so you learn to read pretty young when you're the single child, only child of a nursery school teacher because she's like, just read a book and do your thing. So I started at two and a half and I really haven't looked back. They really have been my company. And as I say in that passage, they've been my solace and, you know, for being an actor. I'm a hopeless actor, and I never watch anything, ever. My agents are always sort of rolling their eyes because they're like, well, you've got a meeting with so and so. And I'm like, I don't know know who that is. And it's, you know, the director of something that everybody's watching. I just never, never watch anything. But I do read voraciously and. And I think I have. You know, I've been writing for years, but I have been so. I hold the bar so high for what I think good literature is. I really do. I have no other phrase for it. I just hold the bar really high. And so it's made me terribly intimidated. It had made me very intimidated of writing about a book because, as I kept saying to my husband, I just can't write a bad book. I just. I'll die if I write a bad book. And I hosted a podcast for a while called Bookish, where I interviewed interesting people about the five books that had shaped the most. And I loved it. I absolutely loved it, and I loved the research involved in the whole thing. But as you know better than anybody, it's. It's an enormous amount of work. And, you know, you need great producer, really, in order to sort of help make it run. And it didn't matter. I kept doing it. But I had this moment of insight where I was interviewing Douglas Stewart, actually, who wrote Shuggie Bay in a book I loved. And I was listening to Douglas, and he was talking about his five books, and he was talking so sensitively and with such intelligence. And I just had this moment of being like, I don't want to interview another author. I want to be one. I just. It was such an interesting revelation, and it just hit like a bell. And then Covid happened, and we all retreated to our houses and our rooms and drove ourselves mad trying to keep children in chairs during zoom school and all of that. And so my retreat in the afternoons, when I finally, you know, caved and let the kids watch a movie or something, I'd go to my little shed and, you know, I think we all just lived on the. On the membrane of our own mortality in that time. And this very, again, clear bell, like story for me of I will if I die. And I haven't written a book. This is not okay. If I don't make another TV show, I Am fine. But if I haven't written a book that feels incomplete to me, that my life feels. I hate to say that word as being a mum with children, but I have to say I felt incomplete and so. Sorry, this is a long answer to your question, but I think all of these things informed sitting down to write. And I love poetry. And my favorite is the poetry of Mary Oliver, who just is clear as a bell and so much distilled into this deceptively simple musical lyricism. But it feels like a conversation. It just feels like she's talking to you. And. And I wanted that. I mean, she's in there, but then so many others are in there. Ocean, Vong, you know, on Earth, we're briefly. Gorgeous. I was really interested in these people who were writing about their lives in a way that still carried some magic to it. That wasn't, you know, linear. That wasn't. He was born in 52 and he died. And none of that's interesting. I'm not very good with facts. My husband will agree with this heartily. I don't hold them. I'm not interested in them. I hate instruction manuals. I throw them out. You know, I like distilled things. I like things that have come to their essence and then finding a way to lay that down on the page.
- [27:18]
Zibby Owens
I love that. So are you like, whiskey on the rocks?
- [27:22]
Sonja Walgar
No, I'm the groning girl.
- [27:23]
Zibby Owens
The grony. Okay. All right. Oh, my gosh. So funny. Well, when you sat down to write and it said in the book, you talk about talking to your mom and sort of interviewing her during COVID and getting her stories down and all of that as well. How long, like, how long does a sentence take you? Do you know what I mean? Like, you know, I am not a literary writer at all. I could write like an entire page in like two seconds. Because it's not. I don't take my time like, I think you. It looks like every sentence has been like painted with a watercolor brush or something. Like, so deliberate.
- [28:00]
Sonja Walgar
I mean, it's interesting. Thank you. Lyon was a mixture. It's also harvested from journals. I'm a long term journal keeper. And so I sort of went through and highlighted sentences that I liked. They were less like, oh, I like that turn of phrase. It was more like, oh, I'd forgotten that moment. I'd forgotten that happened. So the journals, the highlight journals, became the sort of starting point. And then I transcribed moments into my laptop and then started. I've used this phrase before, but it's because it Works. I started sort of working the clay. It felt like a little bit of cold clay in my hands. And if I just stayed with it and needed it, I would get a story out of it. I would get a moment out of it. I could breed that into a paragraph or maybe even a whole section. I kept telling myself, you have everything you need. You have everything you need. You don't go reaching for extra. You have it. Just work what you have. It's a helpful mantra in my life. I find it stops me impulse buying on Amazon, but it's a helpful mantra as a writer. I think when the impulse to go and reach for the outlandish and jump the shark, it's actually great to just keep coming back to this sense of, you have what you need, you can just keep working what you have. And if you feel you haven't, you probably haven't worked what you have. That said, lion did come together quite quickly. I can say that comparative to my third book, which is really hard. I didn't. My struggle was what to make of all these stories in the past. And I wasn't, because, as I say, I knew I didn't want memoir. And so I would just journal in between being like, I'm stuck and I don't know what to do. And it's Jakey's birthday and I got the cake is all wrong. And then I started really realizing that actually what I needed to thread these stories together was to include the present. And then the realization that actually what I needed to do was set the whole book in the present. So to begin each paragraph with, I am 18, I am 45, I am 2, I am, you know, I'm 2 and 3. That continuous present became an extremely. As soon as I had that. Then the book came together really quite quickly after that. But, yes, I'm glad. If the sentences feel deliberate and intense, then that's their mission accomplished.
- [30:27]
Zibby Owens
Yes. You're officially a Potter, so that's great, Sonia, congratulations. So beautiful. I mean, I could talk to you all day about. And I'm excited you're going to be a featured guest at our retreat coming up, because so much more to hear from you and your career. And I didn't even get to the fact that you were an actor, which I didn't know, as I mentioned. So sorry, but please, that's not what we're here for.
- [30:50]
Sonja Walgar
I'm delighted not to talk about it.
- [30:53]
Zibby Owens
Okay, well, I will see you soon and thank you so much. I really love you for having me. Really beautiful. Okay, bye. Bye. Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbeowens and spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.
- [31:21]
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- [31:59]
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- [32:29]
Sonja Walgar
Oh my God. It's the coolest thing ever. Hey guys, have you heard of Goldbelly? Well check this out. It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country anywhere nationwide. It I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls, and even Ina Garden's famous cakes. Seriously. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code Gift.