Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (3:38)

Today is number six in the most downloaded Totally Booked episodes. 2025. We're counting up from 10 to the most downloaded episode. Tune in every day to find out.

Zibby Owens (3:50)

Wally Lamb is the author of the River Is Waiting. Wally is the author of six New York Times best selling novels, I'll Take you There We Are Water Wishin and Hopin' the Hour I First Believed I Know this Much Is True and She's Come Undone. Wally also edited Couldn't Keep it to Myself and I'll Fly Away, two volumes of essays from students in his writing workshop at York Correctional Institution, a women's prison in Connecticut where he was a volunteer facilitator for 20 years. Wally lives in Connecticut with his wife, Christine, and they have three sons. He has been on this podcast in the past and I am delighted to welcome him back now.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (4:28)

Welcome Wally.

Zibby Owens (4:29)

Thank you so much for coming back.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (4:30)

On my show to talk about the River Is Waiting. Congratulations.

Wally Lamb (4:35)

Happy to be here, Zivi, and thank you very much. Yeah.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (4:38)

This book deals with such dark, heavy topics and yet there is a hopeful message of resilience all the way through. Can you talk a little bit about where this idea came from and what it's really about?

Wally Lamb (4:52)

Yeah, sure. Well, you know, I never know when it's time for me to start a new book. I never know what it's going to be about. I'm not moving toward a certain character or a certain ending or anything like that, but what I do. And this was something that taught, that was taught to me by a longtime teacher, writing teacher, and she said, you're never going to tell an interest, you know, like you're never going to tell an original story. She said, so go back to the ancient Myths, because they're the stories that have lasted because people need them to be told and retold. So I have done that ever since. And so I was. When I was sort of spinning my wheels and trying to figure out what exactly I was going to take on, I started reading about. It's a. It's a myth about. It's called La Llorona, and she is the wailing woman in Mexican mythology. And she finds out her husband is unfaithful, and in response, she drowns her children in anger. And then she is a ghost that haunts others by rivers and bodies of water. So I don't know. That's where I started. And I couldn't. You know, I kept being interested in that, but it wasn't getting any traction. And then one day in the newspaper, I. I found a little article on one of the, you know, not on page one, but it was about. It was about these terrible accidents called backovers, where usually a parent, somebody. Somebody. A loved one who has a little kid will back. Not realize that the kid is not in the car, but back and back in the driveway or whatever, and will roll over them. And in 9 out of 10 instances, the child survives. But there is that one terrible example of a child who does not survive. So I was in horror when I read about that. And at the time we had. We had. Our first grandchild was three years old, and we had just welcomed an infant. His baby sister. And I have a car with a backup camera. And my son down in New Orleans, Jared, he and his wife did not at the time have a backup camera. And I was so scared, and I think fear probably motivates me more than anything. I called them up and I said, look, Jared, if you fly up here to Connecticut from Louisiana, I will give you my car with the backup camera and I'll get another car. And, you know, you'll so fly up and then you can drive it back. And he did that. And I went out and got. Got the exact same car, Mike. You know, that car was only about 6 months old. And. But I, you know, I. And the dealership was like, you want the same color? You want. You know, they couldn't get it. But yeah, that. It started with those two things, really. The, you know, the wailing woman. And of course, in the. In the story that. That came about, you know, almost seven years later, you know, there is a woman who cries for her children, for her child specifically. And. But. And there is water, you know, that. That figures into it. And then there's that terrible accident that occurs.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (8:21)

Oh my gosh, I love that you didn't like, just tell your son Jared, like, I'm going to just buy you a car. You're like, you actually have to fly here and drive my old car so that I can get myself a new car.

Wally Lamb (8:34)

That's right. Maybe a little bit of selfishness there. I was.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (8:37)

No, not at all. You're like, you're teaching your kids to work for it.

Paige DeSorbo (8:40)

I love it.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (8:41)

You know, I like it. Well, I didn't know it had a name. Backovers. It's, you know, as a parent, it's terrifying, horrifying. Just so, just the thought of it. So that's great that you did that for him. But you know, reading about in the way that an accident and one moment and the ways that you get to some of the worst moments of your life and how you feel you can put yourself in those moments. Like you're setting yourself up for some bad things to happen. Right. It's not that you're not causing them. It's just, you know, it's like when you're walking, walking in the street and nothing good happens on walking on the sidewalk at like 4 in the morning type of thing, like he's setting himself up for not optimal conditions. So when this horrible thing happens and then the self loathing after and what happens with his wife Emily and Maisie, his daughter, I mean, it's just, it's hard not to read without like grasping your chest like, oh my gosh, was it hard to write all that like, that must have felt, or do you like that feeling of like, oof?

GrowTherapy Advertiser (9:49)

No.

Wally Lamb (9:49)

There's a part of me maybe is superstitious that if I write about these terrible things happening to people, maybe they won't happen to me or my family. But that was only a little bit of part of it. No, it was difficult to write about because, you know, I become these characters. I always write in the first person. I think probably, oh, hey pooch.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (10:11)

Sorry, my dog.

Wally Lamb (10:13)

No, don't be sorry. No, but, you know, I, you know, I hear actors talk about what they do, you know, for a living, and I sort of nod in recognition because what I do is like, I, you know, I walk into the room where I write, which is where I am now, and I become somebody else for, you know, five, six hours. And then luckily I'm able to, you know, shed that skin and go back to my own much more peaceful life. But yeah, I do feel, I feel when I, when I'm writing as these characters, I Feel what they're feeling.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (10:48)

Well, the horror of the event just keeps going with. I don't want to give things away. There's so much that happens and I don't want to like, tell everybody, but it just like keeps getting worse. It's like when you feel like your main character can't take anything else. He has like even more horrible, painful things physically and emotionally happening. How do you come back from this? And that's why I started by saying that is about resilience, because he gets through it, shows us like we can get through anything. Is that what you were kind of going for, even though it just evolved.

Wally Lamb (11:23)

You know, I wasn't going for anything in particular. I had no idea. And this is true of just about all the things that I've written, all the novels anyway, I didn't know where it was going to go. I didn't know what was going to happen. But another thing that sort of served me while I was writing this novel is that I had had a 20 year experience working with imprisoned women. I ran a writing program for them, started in 1999 and had left the program in 2019. So, and this is a writing program. You know, I was a volunteer. And the women, you know, once they got to trust me and trust one another, they began to write about their, their lives and in many cases their secrets, you know, they began to divulge, you know, what had derailed their lives. Some of them, many of them had been the victims of incest when they were kids. But anyway, some of the women were, you know, they had had, you know, okay, middle class lives or working class lives. And then like Corby in the novel, one day something happens and, you know, they go off the rails. And so whereas some of the women that I dealt, some of the women that I dealt with, you know, had lives of crime that, you know, from early on. Others just did something one day and found themselves in prison, which is, you know, I mean, he, which is not to say that Corby didn't, you know, cause him to, you know, to do, to do this terrible thing and end up in prison. But that was, that was instructive for me that you could be living your life, you know, ethically, and then something happens, you snap or whatever, and, and then you spend a lot of years, you know, having to repent.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (13:16)

Oh my gosh, you talk, you set it up with, you know, struggling with substances. Right? Corby is really self medicating his way through twin fatherhood. And as a parent of twins, like that is hard. I get it. It is hard to get through some days, but we don't. There's a lot written, I feel like, about moms needing wine to get through the tough times, but there's a lot less about like how men cope with the overwhelm of parenting. Talk a little bit about that.

Wally Lamb (13:46)

Well, he's. Before he becomes the, you know, the custodian parent, he. He's lost his job. So he was a sort of a conventional 30 something guy working for an advertising firm. And then the, and then that firm sort of, you know, it sort of, you know, there's a reduction in force or reduction in people and he, and he's on the chopping block. And so now he has a wife who is a teacher and she becomes the chief breadwinner. And he loves the kids, his twins, his two year old twins. But he also, as a guy feels somehow disconnected and something of a failure because he's no longer the family breadwinner. And so he begins to. He's anxious, so he gets a prescription for a benzodiazepine and he becomes addicted to that. And he also starts drinking and he does this, you know, sneakily and his. So that his wife doesn't see. She knows about the prescription, but she doesn't know that he's also drinking during the day when in fact he's, you know, he's also parenting those kids. So that sort of leads to what happens with him. And you know, I have had my own, you know, problems with alcohol and I've been, I've been sober for about 14 years now, but I bring my own experience into the, into some of his addictive behavior.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (15:23)

Is there a moment that you think of when you were struggling? That's a moment that you wish so much you could take back?

Wally Lamb (15:32)

Yeah, I think. Well, not, not a moment, but sort of a way that my life, I didn't seem like me for a while there and this, this happened to me. I was a late bloomer in terms of alcoh. And so, you know, I drank enthusiastically before that, but in my, it was in my 50s when it became a real problem and it was at a crossroads. We had, we had just adopted a very troubled kid. You know, we had two of our, two of our own children and then we adopted a third who was mentally ill and, and you know, had come from a terrible situation. So there were, and so there was the challenge of that he had suddenly he changed all the rules of, of parenting that we thought we knew about. We can love him. He was poor when he came into our lives and we thought, okay, we can keep him safe and we can love him and he'll come out okay. But we were ignorant about the damage that can be caused in very early childhood. So there was that. At the same time my parents were, I was becoming a parent of my parents. My mother had a number of strokes and she was kind of losing her mind and my father had Parkinson's disease. And so they became very much in need of my support. So there was, you know, there were these things happening and then, and then the third element was that, you know, I had, I'd had this glorious thing happen twice with the Oprah Book Club, but I was, it intimidated me to write the first sentence of something new because I didn't want to, I didn't want to disappoint these suddenly millions of readers that I had. And, and so I was, I was afraid, I was afraid to write. So it was, it was the, you know, that perfect storm of those three things happening. And I began to escape by using, by medicating myself with, with alcohol, not, not any kind of prescription medication. But it was, you know, it was easy or easy to go to the package store and spend your night with your bottle.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (17:36)

And how did you know it was. When did you know it was a problem? And when did you seek help?

Better Wild Advertiser (17:43)

Dreaming of getting the all new iPhone 17 Pro, designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (17:48)

Then stay in bed and let a.

Wally Lamb (17:49)

Boost mobile expert deliver and set it up for you. Oh, actually they will have to get up and open the door.

GrowTherapy Advertiser (17:53)

Oh, right.

Wally Lamb (17:54)

Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com terms apply.

GrowTherapy Advertiser (17:58)

Grief doesn't keep a calendar. Anxiety doesn't clock out after five. Depression doesn't care if it's your busy season. But support can still fit into your life. With grow, you can find a therapist who meets you where you are. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search by insurance provider, specialty treatment methods and more to find a therapist who works for you. And if it's not the right fit, switching is easy. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. Find therapy on your time, evenings, weekends and Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Whatever challenges you're facing, GrowTherapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

Earnn Advertiser (19:06)

You know what's faster than your paycheck? Literally everything. It's time to get your pay up to speed with Earnn. You can access your pay as you work. Instead of waiting days and weeks for a paycheck, get up to $150 a day with a max of $750 between paydays. No interest, no credit checks and no mandatory fees. Because I mean, hey, it's your money. Download the Earnn app now to get it and join millions of people making any day payday. That's e a r nin Earning is not a bank. Exosomes are based on earnings and risk factors available in select states. Expedited transfers available for fee terms and restrictions apply. Visit earning.com for full details.

Wally Lamb (19:41)

I knew it was a problem about this was for a 10 year period I knew it was a problem about five years in, but then I was too afraid to go to any 12 step program because suddenly I was, you know, I had this name recognition and that was keeping me away. It was pride really. And so, you know, it just got worse, it spiraled down and thank God my wife, you know, hung in there with me. And so eventually I had to walk in and, and you know, sort of declare myself to a bunch of strangers. And what was, what the wonderful thing was was that it opened me up to all kinds of people who I hadn't known before and really. And I still go to meetings and I've had so many good friendships come out of it and so really you think this terrible thing is going to lead to more terrible things. But in my case it led to a very, very good dividend.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (20:45)

Well, good for you for getting to the other side of that and being inspiring those who might be struggling. Do you still feel that fear of starting a book?

Wally Lamb (20:55)

Oh yes. Yeah. I had just started a new one. You know, the one that's coming out soon. The river is waiting. I actually finished that at the end of last year and so I didn't know what else to do. I thought, well, maybe that's my last novel. And then I was hanging around the house for about a week or so and I go, I don't know what to do so I'll try something else. And so, so I started this one and I knew the other one had to come out first. So I wasn't so intimidated to start this. I figured, well, nobody's going to have to look at this for a long time.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (21:34)

That's so funny. Oh, my gosh. Do you feel like you'll jinx it if you say what this one is about? Can you talk about it at all?

Wally Lamb (21:41)

Tell you a little bit about it? The main character is a feisty young woman named Josephine, who's born in 1898. And she's born into a family. She's got two brothers. She idolizes one brother, and she can't stand her bratty little brother because their mother enters him in the Charming Child Contest, which actually was a thing, I think it was in the Daily News, and he wins second prize. And so the mother, her younger son, can do no wrong. And Josephine, Josie is just really pissed off about this. And he's a little brat. He's a little manipulator. And then the story grows up. I mean, she grows up a little bit in the story, and he does, and he becomes a sort of a conniver with women. And. And her brother, her other brother second, her older brother becomes a soldier in World War I. So I had to do a ton of research on that horrible war. And so that's. I'm about. About maybe 100, 125 pages into it. And again, I'm not sure quite where it's going.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (23:00)

I mean, if you want, I could throw out some lighter topics for you. You just go right to the. It's like you can't think of anything. You know, researching a new war. It's like you're a glutton for punishment.

Wally Lamb (23:12)

Well, I did write one funny book called Wishing and Hoping. And they. They actually made a. A movie, a Christmas movie out of it. And that. That was a delight to. To write. It was the fastest thing I ever wrote. And it was a lot of fun and. And being, you know, going to the movie set and everything. That was fun. That was. That one stars Molly Ringwald and the late, great Meat Loaf who I met, who I met on the set one time. And he said, oh, yeah, you're the guy who wrote the book, right? And I said, yeah. And he says, well, I want to tell you something, Wally. I've had three concussions in my life. And proceeds. Tell me about the three concussions. I'm like, okay, I'm not sure where that came from, but I'm going to listen intently.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (24:02)

Oh, my gosh. I was kidding, of course, about the lighter topics.

Zibby Owens (24:07)

Oh, sure.

Wally Lamb (24:08)

Well, I do. I do have to, because I write about these bleak things. I do have to sort of save myself by putting in some comic relief. So usually there is a friend or somebody in the. You know, the. One of the minor characters sort of gives the readers a chance to sort of breathe a little bit. In this case, it is one of. One of Corby's cellmates. Yes, a guy named. A guy named Manny. Manny Dellavecchia, who is half Italian and half Jewish. And he's, you know, he's. He's a. He's sort of a good guy in. In this prison where there are a lot of bad guys. And so he becomes Corby's friend, which is lovely.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (24:51)

When you finish a day of intense writing and you walk back into the other room, how is that transition? Are you able to just shake it off or does it linger? Do you feel it? Is it heavy like a coat you're wearing?

Wally Lamb (25:04)

No, I can usually shake it off. Although my wife, Chris, sometimes she can. She knows I don't usually talk, tell her, you know, on a day to day basis what's happened in the story. But she can tell if something really hard happened because she says, your behavior will sort of reflect that. I don't necessarily feel that, but. But, you know, that's her observation. And I play a lot of music. Music, lots of times will pull me out and pull me out of the plot. And I also sometimes play music while I'm writing, usually, you know, on a low volume, but. And sometimes it sort of helps me if I'm trying to figure out what the story is or what the next plot element might be. Sometimes a lyric, a song, lyrics that I kind of overhear while the music is going on will direct something. And that happened. It's why I like to tip my hat to songwriters, because so I've always. Every one of my novels either is from a song title or has an excerpt from a song from a song lyric. And this latest one, the river is Waiting, actually came in the middle of writing the story. And it's an old John Fogarty song. He was the lead singer for Breeding's Clearwater Revival and this beautiful version of the same song by Irma Thomas, who is one of the mainstays of New Orleans music. So, yeah, that's like. I like to sort of tip my hat to the musicians for helping me find the way and, you know, the river is Waiting. So I decide, okay, that has to be the title. I'm not sure why, but what is the river waiting for? Then I have to ask myself that question and try to solve that riddle.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (27:02)

So interesting. Oh, my gosh. Okay, well, what advice do you have for aspiring authors?

Wally Lamb (27:08)

Well, I've Worked with a lot of aspiring authors, high school kids, for about 25 years. And then I worked as the head of creative writing at the University of Connecticut for a while. And then I worked for the prison with the prison writers and so forth. And I. I tell them the same message, that the real writing comes in revision. You know, don't ever feel that you can get it right in a first draft. It doesn't happen to me, and it doesn't happen to any of the professional writers that I know. And I have been in a writer's group for. Oh, God, almost when I started writing, first of all at Vermont College, and then later, you know, with a private writing group. And we've been going together for years, decades. And so you. So you humble yourself to the process. You listen to other people about how you might add something that's going to make it better or cut something that's going to make it better or clarify something that you think is clear but other people don't. And sometimes reordering, putting things like, you might have a great paragraph that's buried in the middle of an essay or a story. So try it at the beginning, see if you like it. In other words, I really like to revise. I think a first draft is grunt work. I mean, that becomes really hard to me. And then after that, there's more play involved.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (28:40)

I love that. Wally, thank you so much. The river is waiting. So beautiful. So, so emotional. This is what good books do, right? They make you feel like you're going through it yourself. And it was really beautiful.

Wally Lamb (28:53)

Thank you. I really enjoyed this. And the way I know it is, because I thought about 10 minutes had gone by and instead it's time to close. So that's a tribute to you. You're a great interviewer. Thank you, Siby. And thank you for all you do for books and for readers and writers as well.

Zibby Owens (Interviewer) (29:15)

Thank you. That's very sweet. Thank you so much. All right, have a great day. Thank you. Bye bye.

Wally Lamb (29:20)

You too.

Zibby Owens (29:21)

Thank you for listening to Totally Booked with Zibby, formerly Moms don't have Time to Read Books. If you loved the show, tell a friend, leave a review, follow me on Instagram ibbeowens and Spread the word. Thanks so much. Oh, and buy the books.

Prolon Advertiser (29:43)

Ever wonder why so many people regain weight after stopping a GLP1? Up to 40% of the weight lost can come from lean muscle. This weakens the body, slows metabolism, and makes it easier to put the pounds back on, creating a cycle of dependency. Prolon's five Day Fasting Mimicking diet offers a drug free way to maintain results and support long term metabolic health in just five days. It activates fasting pathways to burn fat, protect muscle and rejuvenate cells, all while letting you enjoy real food. Get 15% off plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe at prolonlife.com start that's prolonlife.com start Hannah Berner are those.

Tommy John Advertiser (30:28)

The cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying?

Paige DeSorbo (30:31)

Paige desorbo they are Tommy John and yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best holiday gifts.

Zibby Owens (30:38)

So generous.

Paige DeSorbo (30:39)

Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me. So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear and best fitting loungewear.

Tommy John Advertiser (30:47)

So nothing for your bestie?

Paige DeSorbo (30:49)

Of course I'm getting my dad Tommy John. Oh, and you?

Tommy John Advertiser (30:52)

Of course it's giving Holiday gifting made easy.

Paige DeSorbo (30:55)

Exactly. Cozy, comfy, everyone's happy. Gift everyone on your list, including yourself with Tommy John and get 25% off your first order right now@tommyjohn.com comfort.

Tommy John Advertiser (31:08)

You know what's faster than your paycheck? Literally everything. It's time to get your pay up to speed with earnnnn. You can access your pay as you work. Instead of waiting days and weeks for a paycheck, get up to $150 a day with a max of $750 between paydays. No interest, no credit checks and no mandatory fees because hey, it's your money. Download the Earn app now to get it and join millions of people making any day payday. That's E A R N I N Earn in is not a bank. Access limits are based on your earnings and risk factors available in selected states. Expedited transfers available for a fee. Terms and restrictions apply. Visit Earnin.com for full details.