Chad Sanders–I Sell Out

Summary

Podcast Summary: Toure Show – Chad Sanders ("I Sell Out")

Episode Details:

• Title: Chad Sanders – I Sell Out
• Host: Toure Show by DCP Entertainment
• Release Date: April 9, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of the Toure Show, host Touré engages in an in-depth conversation with renowned writer and media personality Chad Sanders. Titled "I Sell Out," the episode delves into Sanders' journey to success in Hollywood, the ethical complexities of his work, his experiences with racism, and the profound influence of mentorship within the black creative community.

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Chad Sanders’ Rise to Success in Hollywood

Chad Sanders candidly discusses his ascent in Hollywood, highlighting a pivotal moment when his writing gained significant attention.

Chad Sanders [00:21]: "The economic cycle in Hollywood says, oh, we want black stories. We want black stories. I didn't care. I just wanted the money and I wanted something that felt like love, fame, success."

This surge in demand for black narratives provided Sanders with unprecedented opportunities, including offers from major platforms like HBO Max and Audible. However, this success also brought challenges, as he navigated the complexities of maintaining authenticity while capitalizing on black pain in his work.

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"How to Sell Out": Thematic Exploration

Sanders introduces his book, "How to Sell Out," which examines the intersection of success and authenticity. He emphasizes the book’s focus on the fleeting nature of initial success and the pressure to replicate it.

Chad Sanders [02:55]: "The book is about when you have a little tiny bit of success in anything, really. For me, it was writing about blackness and pain."

The book explores how moments of heightened visibility can lead to an influx of requests that may compromise one's creative integrity. Sanders reflects on his motivations, admitting a desire for financial gain intertwined with a yearning for love and recognition.

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The Ethical Struggle: Selling Black Pain

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Sanders' use of black pain and anger in his work. He reveals the tension between producing meaningful content and commodifying suffering for commercial success.

Chad Sanders [06:07]: "I made a few hundred thousand dollars a year. You go from an artist writer who's making nothing to all of a sudden, you can buy a cool car, you can get a new place."

Sanders openly acknowledges faking anger to sell his work, grappling with the ethical implications of profiting from authentic black experiences.

Chad Sanders [06:54]: "I'm creating the anger so I can sell it."

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The Impact of Success on Personal Identity

Sanders reflects on how sudden success affects personal identity and relationships. He discusses feeling disconnected from his roots and the superficial aspects of the American Dream that success brings.

Chad Sanders [08:39]: "I had been signed to WME and I had a manager and agents, but none of that mattered until you have a moment."

He further contemplates the balance between personal contentment and professional demands, revealing a struggle to reconcile his ambitions with his true self.

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Mentorship and Community within Black Media

A core theme of the episode is the importance of mentorship and support within the black creative community. Sanders and Touré discuss the dynamics of building relationships with established figures like Spike Lee, Jay Z, and Issa Rae.

Chad Sanders [57:02]: "He taught me confidence... Having a direction is, in many cases, more important than even, like, where you're going."

Sanders emphasizes that mentorship transcends formal arrangements, highlighting the value of informal guidance and genuine connections in fostering growth and resilience.

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Media Interviews and Challenges of Asking Tough Questions

The conversation shifts to Sanders' experiences with media interviews, where he often confronts difficult topics. They explore the delicate balance between journalistic integrity and navigating potential backlash.

Chad Sanders [61:24]: "There is nowhere in your calculus that this is the thing. These are the hot buttons of the moment and they will be good for business for you."

Sanders shares anecdotes about interviewing high-profile figures like Kanye West and Jay Z, illustrating the complexities of probing deeply while maintaining professionalism and avoiding alienation.

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Personal Experiences with Racism and Its Impact

Sanders recounts personal encounters with racism, illustrating its pervasive impact on daily life and professional endeavors. These experiences inform his writing and activism, providing a raw perspective on systemic issues.

Chad Sanders [52:20]: "He yelled, go home. That feels like part and parcel of being a black person in this country."

His narratives underscore the emotional toll of racism and the resilience required to navigate such challenges, fostering a deeper understanding of his motivations and creative processes.

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Influences and Inspirations: The Spike Lee Connection

A poignant segment of the episode highlights the profound influence of Spike Lee on Sanders' career. Their interactions underscore the significance of authentic mentorship in shaping creative vision and professional ethos.

Chad Sanders [75:40]: "He taught me confidence... having a direction is, in many cases, more important than even, like, where you're going."

Leaning on Lee's unwavering confidence and commitment to authentic storytelling, Sanders draws parallels between their philosophies, emphasizing the importance of staying true to one's narrative amidst external pressures.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Sanders reflecting on the intricate dance between success, authenticity, and ethical responsibility in the creative industries. He underscores the necessity of genuine mentorship, community support, and a steadfast commitment to personal integrity in navigating the complexities of Hollywood.

Chad Sanders [92:36]: "I'm putting it on extra, but it's still mine nonetheless."

Key Takeaways:

• Navigating Success: Sudden success brings both opportunities and ethical dilemmas, especially when commodifying personal and communal pain.
• Authenticity vs. Commercialism: Balancing genuine expression with commercial viability is a persistent challenge for creators.
• Importance of Mentorship: Building authentic relationships and seeking mentorship are crucial for sustained growth and integrity.
• Impact of Racism: Personal experiences with racism deeply influence creative outputs and professional paths.
• Journalistic Integrity: Asking tough questions requires a delicate balance between probing truth and maintaining professional relationships.

Chad Sanders' introspective and honest dialogue offers invaluable insights into the struggles and triumphs of succeeding within the black creative community, making this episode a must-listen for aspiring artists and entrepreneurs alike.

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Notable Quotes:

• Chad Sanders [02:55]: "The book is about when you have a little tiny bit of success in anything, really. For me, it was writing about blackness and pain."
• Chad Sanders [06:07]: "I made a few hundred thousand dollars a year. You go from an artist writer who's making nothing to all of a sudden, you can buy a cool car, you can get a new place."
• Chad Sanders [57:02]: "He taught me confidence... Having a direction is, in many cases, more important than even, like, where you're going."
• Chad Sanders [92:36]: "I'm putting it on extra, but it's still mine nonetheless."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing a clear and engaging overview of Chad Sanders' insights and experiences shared on the Toure Show.

Transcript

[Toray]

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[Chad Sanders]

Today, your name is trending. The moment of the black pane window is open. The economic cycle in Hollywood says, oh, we want black stories. We want black stories. We want black stories. And I didn't even, like, I would be lying to say I didn't think about it or notice that that was what was happening to me, but I didn't care. I just wanted the money and I wanted. That's a cop out too. Like, I wanted the money, but I wanted something that felt like love, fame, success. You understand? Like, you go from artist writer who's making nothing to all of a sudden, like, you can buy a kind of a cool car, you can get a.

[Unknown]

New place, but you're kind of living the American fiction story. Right. You're selling black paint, selling it in your work.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And you are personally succeeding.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And you are personally bothered by your success.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm faking it to a degree.

[Unknown]

You're faking how upset you are about it.

[Chad Sanders]

No, I'm faking. I'm creating the anger so I can sell it. The tour ratio. Okay, though. Detour Ray show. Okay, though.

[Unknown]

That might be the best question I've ever been asked.

[Chad Sanders]

You's a phenomenal person.

[Unknown]

I mean, you.

[Chad Sanders]

Legendary. I am a fan of you. My brother.

[Unknown]

Chad Sanders is an amazing writer who wrote a book called how to Sell out because he blew up in Hollywood. And yet he's out here writing about race somehow successfully. Let's get into it. I love this conversation. It's Chad Sanders on Toray Show. Chad, welcome.

[Chad Sanders]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

How you doing?

[Chad Sanders]

I'm great. I've been here for probably like half an hour and I drove through Times Square. I'm very energized, as you can probably tell. I'm like, I'm amped up. I feel great. How do you feel?

[Unknown]

I'm good. What is your book about? How to sell out.

[Chad Sanders]

Every single time somebody asks me that, I give a different answer. I was thinking this last night. I was like, my least favorite part of every interview is when they're like, sell the book now.

[Unknown]

I'm not asking you to sell it.

[Chad Sanders]

I know you're not, but even though you're not. That's what you just signaled for me was like, go into that, like, thing.

[Unknown]

Don't sell it. Yeah, what is the thesis? What is the heart of the book?

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, I'm doing it now. I'm like, click. The book is about when you have a little tiny bit of success in anything, really. But for me, it was in Hollywood, and for me it was writing about blackness and pain. Honestly, specifically after George Floyd, you have a little bit of success and all of a sudden it feels like a world opens up for you. That's what happened to me, where you're meeting your heroes, you're getting signed, you're getting deals thrown at you, but they all want the same thing from you because you had success with that one thing that one time. And for me, that was writing about how gnarly and painful it is to be a black person.

[Unknown]

Where was that success?

[Chad Sanders]

So George Floyd is murdered by the police. Get on a phone call with a couple friends. Shortly thereafter, as I think a lot of black folks were doing like rally together. And we had this conversation where we were all complaining about the same thing, which actually wasn't that the police killed George Floyd. It was that the white people in our lives were. Were rushing to us to get this feeling that they were doing the right thing by telling us, I'm here for you. I'm so sorry. It's so hard to be a black person in this country. And they wanted us to pet them back. They wanted us to be like, you're one of the good ones. Thank you so much. But what it felt like was a chore. It was labor, additional emotional labor for them. So I write this piece for the New York Times. This was my first time ever writing something that blew up. It got. It got a lot. It was called I Don't need Love texts from my white Friends, I need them to fight anti Blackness. That was with the New York Times re headlined it because what I wanted to call it was don't Send Love, send money. I thought that was. I thought that was perfect. But they knew, so they made this headline, peace blows up. Because everybody's feeling this right now. And suddenly, you know, I had been signed to WME and I had a manager and agents and stuff for like a couple of years at this point. But you know how it is. Like none of that shit matters until you have a moment. And suddenly now it's like, now HBO Max wants you to write for this TV show. Now Audible wants rap shit. Now Audible wants you to do an Audible originals. Now all These pilots and shit you've been trying to sell are selling because your name is trending. The moment of the black pane window is open. The economic cycle in Hollywood says, oh, we want black stories. We want black stories. We want black stories. And I didn't even, like, I would be lying to say I didn't think about it or notice that that was what was happening to me, but I didn't care. I just wanted the money and I wanted. That's a cop out too. Like, I wanted the money, but I wanted something that felt like love, fame, success. I wanted that, like, I wanted to like, rush into that dream Hollywood life that I think I, I had in my head somewhere. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

So that's. Pardon me, how much did you make? Ballpark.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm like, you know what's so crazy? When someone asks you that, the, the mind goes to like, well, what did I put on my taxes? But I made a few hundred thousand dollars a year. Like, not like, not a huge sum, but you understand, like, you go from artist, writer who's making nothing.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

To all of a sudden, like, you can buy a kind of a cool car, you can get a new place.

[Unknown]

But you're kind of living the American fiction story. Right. You're selling black pain. Selling it in your work.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And you are personally succeeding.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And you are personally bothered by your success and.

[Chad Sanders]

Personally bothered by it. I got to sit with that. Like, I'm faking it to a degree.

[Unknown]

You're faking how upset you are about it.

[Chad Sanders]

No, I'm faking. I'm creating the anger so I can sell it. I am angry, you know, like, I have anger. I am a 30 something black person.

[Unknown]

But you're professionally angry.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, I'm like, I'm crafting it. I'm looking for it so that I can spew it. It's like I can't serve something I don't have. So I gotta, like, I gotta find it. And then what that turns into is, now every surface can be a mirror for anger. Like, my relationship with my friends can be a mirror for anger. My relationship to every white person I know can be a mirror for anger. Like, because I need more of it. I need more of it. And I'm certainly not blameless, but neither are like the networks and the producers because they're mining it from me there. I'm working on projects where. And I'll. I'll hold rap shit aside because that's a different thing because that's sort of owned and run by Issa Rae but, like, other entities are prodding me because they want to find that within me, and I'm looking for it too, because we're like, that's where the money is right now. That's where the gold is.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Right. But so you. I thought you were leading to where. I feel bad about that. You keep stopping before you really get into. And I'm gonna tell. You have to. I was like, you thought I would. Oh. And he's going to say, and I feel bad about being a creator or a distributor of black pain stories and black anger. And you're like. And you keep sort of stopping and stop talking. And look at me. I'm like, oh, he's not saying that. I feel bad about that part. I just assume you not feel bad about that. No, you should.

[Chad Sanders]

I don't.

[Unknown]

Maybe you should. But you.

[Chad Sanders]

I don't. I mean, now that you're saying it, I'm like, maybe I should.

[Unknown]

I mean, the way it's funny, every.

[Chad Sanders]

Time I talking, I look at you, and you're like. You're like, there's an. There's another act here. Like, finish the story.

[Unknown]

You're a storyteller, you know? You know, you're ending in Act 2. And I'm like, and then what happened?

[Chad Sanders]

I'm trying to stay honest, you know, because the story you tell, you didn't.

[Unknown]

Feel bad, but you knew intellectually that you should.

[Chad Sanders]

I felt bad inside. Like, I. I. I haven't even still, to this moment, gotten. Gotten around to. Like, did I do a public disservice? I'm still processing.

[Unknown]

Oh, do you think you did? Do you think you did?

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, maybe.

[Unknown]

Do you think you, like, set the race back or you did a bad thing for black people?

[Chad Sanders]

No. But if, you know, if there are people who are tracking my journey, my arc, as you know how media is, there will be more and more of those people over time, presumably, who are gonna go back to the beginning and track my arc. Just like, I'll go to the beginning of your story. And so they might think that this is the thing to do if they go watch my. If they go look at my story and they say, okay, he seemed to sort of start taking off when he started being angry and sad and hurt. So then they might try to emulate that same thing. But you can't. You really can't fake it.

[Unknown]

It has to go through the hood. No, no, no.

[Chad Sanders]

You know that.

[Unknown]

Right, right, right, right. So it was all, like, you transposing yourself into that.

[Chad Sanders]

I never know because I certainly Never wrote a story that said I was from the hood.

[Unknown]

No, no, not that you're from the hood, but if you're telling stories that like. Like American fiction that you're like, we're playing to a certain archetype that the white audience expects and likes.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You don't have to say I am from that. But, like, why are you telling that story if that's not even your story?

[Chad Sanders]

It's a. Okay, I'll put it like this because where are you from?

[Unknown]

I grew up in Boston.

[Chad Sanders]

You're from Boston? What, like, what kind of town?

[Unknown]

Suburbs.

[Chad Sanders]

Very white suburbs of Maryland. Probably like Silver Spring.

[Unknown]

So we've heard of that.

[Chad Sanders]

Pretty diverse.

[Unknown]

Is that in Peachy County?

[Chad Sanders]

No, Montgomery county. But.

[Unknown]

But you're like, very close.

[Chad Sanders]

My mom County. Right.

[Unknown]

Like that same vibe.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes. Upper.

[Unknown]

Upper middle class, black folks.

[Chad Sanders]

Upper middle class. A lot of black folks. A lot of immigrants, you know, government contractors and people working the government. Jack and Jill, all that shit.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Chad Sanders]

All that bougie shit. Yes.

[Unknown]

And.

[Chad Sanders]

And you were in Jack and Jill. Yes, I was in Jack and Jill.

[Unknown]

So was I.

[Chad Sanders]

Word.

[Unknown]

Hated that shit.

[Chad Sanders]

Did you? Well, what's come. I mean, to.

[Unknown]

But I understand. I understand the importance of Jack and Jill at that moment in history.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

That we as a people were developing a larger middle, middle, upper middle class than we had ever had. And people wanted themselves and their children to be connecting with other people of the middle, middle, black, middle, middle class.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

You know, like, yes, it's exclusionary, but, like, my parents grew up with nothing. Right. They got to somewhere. They were like, we want to be with other people who've gotten to the middle middle class and get our kids together with other people. So I'm meeting kids who are like, oh, you go to that private school. You go to that private school over there. Over there. Okay. We're creating a network so we grow older together. It made sense.

[Chad Sanders]

It. To this moment. I understand why it exists. I am a little bit under fire within my own community for even talking about this.

[Unknown]

Oh, 100%.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. You know how it is. Because one of the rules is one of the. One of the actual rules, not the rules written on the website is like, don't say bad things about the thing. Like, don't. Don't poke at the thing. Don't hyper analyze it. Don't critique it. And I don't even think I've been that. I don't think I've like, thrown toxicity at it. I just feel all the time within all these organizations that I'm Part of Jack and Jill, a Divine Nine fraternity, an hbcu, everything, corporations. When I work there, I always feel like the labor of staying inside, of being a part of the in group is it costs more than the value.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You tell an interesting story in the book about you're needing to schmooze with white guys, with white finance guys. And in a way, yeah. And it seems like you are in a position to and need to use your blackness to seem cool to win over their connection and their business at that time.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Right. And you're sort of like exhausted at the having to use your blackness. But then you're like, well, but I am trying to get this deal. But within that you're having to put up with witnessing casual racism. So they're not being racist to you until like later in the story. Right. They think they start to get a little racist, but it's like racist expectations. Yes, but you have to like deal with that. And you're. So there's a lot going on in terms of dealing with white people.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. And isn't that the story of every black person that works with white people is. It's a.

[Unknown]

Well, in certain front facing roles, you have to like use the black flair style and cool in a way that like lures in the white people and they're like, oh my God, Chad's so cool. Well, like, yeah. You don't usually hang out with black people because they don't like you.

[Chad Sanders]

You're doing a dance, you're doing it. You're doing a show for them. You're making them feel let in. You're making them feel like they themselves are safe for you. And then you go back to your hotel room at the conference and you walk in that room and you lock the door and you, you're literally doing it before I even get to it. You take that and you're just like, if you're even aware that it's happening for some people, you just hold it in and then you explode. No.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

Do you feel this?

[Unknown]

I have felt a, I have felt a tearing of like, intentions, like being in news, wanting to represent black people, feeling a difficulty of doing that. And you're like, I do need a certain level of acceptance from these white people who I'm around. And yet I do want black people who are watching to be like, yeah, he's there for us.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And sometimes those two notions are what? Like after the first presidential debate when Obama debated Romney and the pundit world said Romney won because Romney was high energy And Obama was very, like, low, mellow, like, I don't even really want to be here. And I was like, well, obviously Obama won because Romney lied about all his positions.

[Chad Sanders]

Right?

[Unknown]

And I was told, you can't say that because especially as a black person, you look like a homer.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You look crazy.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

So you decided my opinion and what opinion I could say. Right? And then you see what I'm saying.

[Chad Sanders]

Who says that? Who said, like, is that. Is that feedback you receive from audience? Is that a producer telling you that?

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Chad Sanders]

Saying literally to you. You can't say that because you're.

[Unknown]

Yes. God damn, yes. And a black person at Fox told me they had the same thing said to them that you. You can't. And it's not like you are barred from saying that. But it's like, that doesn't make any sense, dude.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

You know, I mean, like, if I was like, I think Kyrie is the best player in the NBA. Like, dude, that's. You can't say that.

[Chad Sanders]

Right?

[Unknown]

Like, it's a world with fucking, like, John Morant. You can't say that or whatever. Like, you know, and. But what if that's my opinion.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, so that was a little bit more of how it came down to for me.

[Chad Sanders]

But so now. Well, to that point, I think sometimes people are surprised. The last time I had a job was 2000. What am I, what, 20? That can't be right? 2016. So it's been like nine years. Probably the last time I was working in an office with other people. I live in Glendale, in Queens, but most of my communities in Bed Stuy. I went to an hbcu. What I'm getting at is, like, my world is now filled with non white people, except that I live literally in New York City. There's white people everywhere. But I think it's confusing to people. They're very surprised that I would say some things that I will say out loud, but it's because I don't. There's no one there to shut me down all the time and tell me, like, you're wrong. You're crazy. Most of the voices I hear responding to me are saying, thank you for saying that out loud. I'm so scared to say that because of where I work, because of where I live. Whatever, whatever.

[Unknown]

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[Unknown]

So you got a really interesting Kanye story, which is kind of funny because I dine out on my Kanye story a lot. But I'm early Kanye, you're later Calabasas era Kanye.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm right before slavery was a choice, right? I'm right before it.

[Unknown]

Tell me about the Kanye you were experiencing.

[Chad Sanders]

So I used to go out to LA for like weeks at a time for jobs or like, you know, this is the early, very early start of my career. So it's like people will tell you you're coming out to work on a project and the project, we actually never work on it. So Terrence J. Who you probably know from. From around he.

[Unknown]

From bt.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, from. From. Yeah, he.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I was, he's the first one. I was part of the group that selected him to be on the air.

[Chad Sanders]

Oh wow.

[Unknown]

Which is not on me. Yeah, he was a superstar as soon as he walked in the room.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Anybody would have chosen him.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes. Terrence has a. He's a gift for hosting. Like he's. He's consummate for host.

[Unknown]

He's a telegenic. He was a fan favorite from day one.

[Chad Sanders]

I believe that I. And so he had gotten a hold of a pilot I wrote. He invites me out to la and I had a lot of friends and stuff in la, so I would go out there for like weeks at a time. He started bringing me into the like the Kanye world really, you know, brought me out to play ball with those guys.

[Unknown]

Playing basketball with him.

[Chad Sanders]

Play basketball with him several times.

[Unknown]

How is he?

[Chad Sanders]

He's like a undersized power forward. 5, 9 ish.

[Unknown]

Oh, he wants to play close to the basket.

[Chad Sanders]

He wants to, like, run. Pick and roll. That's what he wants to do.

[Unknown]

Can he shoot?

[Chad Sanders]

No.

[Unknown]

Can he dribble?

[Chad Sanders]

No.

[Unknown]

He shoots too much?

[Chad Sanders]

No, he.

[Unknown]

Because I would imagine Kanye's like, no.

[Chad Sanders]

But what he did do was Terrence said, he glammed me, so.

[Unknown]

He glammed.

[Chad Sanders]

Glam to me is what he called it. So the first time I ever played with them, they're not great. Like, I'm. I'm. I'm pretty good for my age at basketball, which means. Which is to say, like, good for an old guy. And I know you're the old guy. I mean, in those arenas, I'm usually playing with 25 year olds. So I'm playing with these guys. I pick up Kanye full court, because it's like, game point. So I'm like, I'm gonna take the ball from this guy, lay it in. He takes the two dribbles, and then he kind of, like, smiles at me. He's like, yo, you really gonna guard me full court? And I just turned my ass around and ran. It's Kanye West. Like, it's 2017. What am I gonna do? I run away. Like, I'm like, you got it, Mr. Kanye. And then later on, Terrence laughed because they won. And then he's like, you got glammed. Like, you let the celebrity get one over on you because he was a celebrity.

[Unknown]

Because he told you to basically go away. You did.

[Chad Sanders]

I did. Which dovetails well with what I saw around Kanye during that entire time. Everybody does whatever Kanye says.

[Unknown]

That's bullshit. I would have locked that nigga down.

[Chad Sanders]

But they. But you're coming from a different vantage point. Like, I'm coming with nothing.

[Unknown]

I'm feeling that rock. I can't wait to talk to you.

[Chad Sanders]

No, I. And I. I feel you now. I wish I had.

[Unknown]

When I was playing poker with Jay Z. I was dying to beat him. Oh, my God. I play one on one. W. Marsalis. I am dying to beat you. I am trying my hardest to be.

[Chad Sanders]

You, to bust their ass.

[Unknown]

He's very good. Who, Witten? He's very good.

[Chad Sanders]

What about Jay Z?

[Unknown]

We play poker. We didn't play basketball.

[Chad Sanders]

Is he a good poker player?

[Unknown]

Fuck, yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

He's really smart.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

Can you tell me a little about that?

[Unknown]

He said, you have really Only no, because they've heard that, and we're here to hear from you.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

All right. But I appreciate the question. I'm talking about that after.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, I mean, I write about me and Jay in this book, but, yes, Kanye. So first time I ever go to his house, I go out there to, like, take notes, you know, on his pontifications. Literally, that was my job, is, like.

[Unknown]

Have a notebook to take notes on his pontification. So you're like a living notebook, Like a scribe? Yeah, yeah. So Kanye's throwing out thoughts, you're to write them down, and then later, he'll.

[Chad Sanders]

Nothing. I have the notebook. To this day, I have the notebook.

[Unknown]

What did he say? So. So you recorded and never reported back?

[Chad Sanders]

I didn't even record. I had. Yes. Recorded.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You wrote them down. Yes. And. But he never said, okay, remind me of the notes so I can.

[Chad Sanders]

No.

[Unknown]

So what was the point? Were you paid for this?

[Chad Sanders]

No, I'm not sure that I don't know what the point was. To this day, I mean, I kind of get it. Like, even now, where I'm at in my journey, sometimes I like to just have someone there to document. But with visually, because I'm gonna use it later. For him. I think he just. I think he just likes to have an audience for his pontifications. Maybe it feels better to tell somebody than to talk to yourself. I don't know.

[Unknown]

But.

[Chad Sanders]

But we drove up the 101. We went to his house.

[Unknown]

He drove.

[Chad Sanders]

I think Terrence drove.

[Unknown]

Okay, okay.

[Chad Sanders]

He was polite to me. He snapped at me at one point, Kanye. This is. Which. He was doing his pontifications, and I stopped him, and I was like, hey, wait, you just said this other thing. Can we go back to that real quick? And it was like a record scratch. We were literally driving up the 101, listening to Runaway, which is one of my favorite Kanye songs.

[Unknown]

It wasn't released yet.

[Chad Sanders]

It was released. It was like.

[Unknown]

So he's sitting around listening to his old.

[Chad Sanders]

He asked me what my favorite Kanye song was, and I told him. And he played it. Yes, he does. He drives around.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Chad Sanders]

Literally, the unreleased.

[Unknown]

I'm. I'm with you, but you listen to your. Okay.

[Chad Sanders]

This is my.

[Unknown]

What album was he on at that point?

[Chad Sanders]

He was doing Pablo, I want to say.

[Unknown]

Oh, so. Oh, he's listening to the old. Okay.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. He was listening to. This is 2016, 17.

[Unknown]

A lot of artists would be like, I don't listen to my old shit.

[Chad Sanders]

Really?

[Unknown]

Yes. That's old. Why am I listening to my old shit?

[Chad Sanders]

He was listening to. Also a brandy joint that he has that. I can't remember the name of that he's on. Yeah. Oh, bring us down from Bring Me Down. So. So I. We. First time, we pull up to, like, if it's like, a compound. I mean, it's. It's out there in Calabasas. You gotta go through a giant gate. Anyway, as we're driving up, there's, like, horses.

[Unknown]

When he's married.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. So.

[Unknown]

So she's there.

[Chad Sanders]

Go through security, sign an NDA. Go. Go into this. It's still being finished. This house, too. And, yes, Kim comes to the door to meet us there. And I'm like, again, mind you, I'm living in a studio apartment here in Brooklyn. Like, I'm in Kanye West's house with Kim Kardashian there. Their baby is there, who's, like, a few days old. I can't remember which. I think Saint.

[Unknown]

Okay. Okay.

[Chad Sanders]

I think Saint. He's in a $1 million French bassinet that was a gift to them. It is a gold bassinet in the kitchen. And I go to the bathroom. I go to the bathroom, and I text my friends. I'm like, yo, y'all not gonna be where the fuck I'm at. I come back out, and Kanye's like, yo, you gotta see the bathroom. I was like, I just went to the bathroom. And he's like, no, he's laughing at me. He's like, that's not the bathroom. Walks me through this whole house. Shows me Kim's closet, which is bigger than any apartment I've lived in in New York City. Keeps walking me through to this bathroom and has double. You know, like, it's like a double studio bathroom. It has, like, glass walls, glass ceiling, retractable roof. It looks off over acres and acres and acres of desert. And then we go back in the living room. I mean, in the kitchen, somebody, a chef is making brunch. There's security walking all around, gives us brunch. And this is so on the nose, it feels fake. Kanye sits there and checks media takeout at the table at brunch in front of all of us. And we talk about what's on media takeout that day. And I just want to say, again, I want to recount. He was kind, sweet to me, like, wanted to feel praise. Didn't say, I'm the. Like, I'm the one that will tell you the thing. And he didn't say anything crazy. Like, he didn't. He didn't shit on anybody. He didn't. Obviously didn't say Anything like anti Semitic. And then weeks later, I want to say maybe months later, it was him and Van Lathan. Slavery is a choice. And I feel like everything from this since that moment has been derivative of that moment.

[Unknown]

Well, I think it really goes back to the mom dying.

[Chad Sanders]

That's what people say. Can. Can you help me make. How can. I'm trying to see it that way too. People say that.

[Unknown]

I think that he was. I think that he was. He was a version of Kanye. He was her son. He's making the college. The College trilogy. He's dating Alexis, who's like very traditionally nice girl.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Right. I think they were engaged. And then, you know, she passes. He kind of freaks out. 808s is the morning of her. Right. My beautiful, dark, twisted fantasies is fuck you back to the world. That was like I was mourning in mourning. I did all this rude shit because I was on tilt, personally. And I think he was trying to outrun the morning by like, work, work, work, work, work, do shit, do shit, do shit. Cause there was a period of time that he kind of disappears, but he's doing the fashion internship, so he's still busy, busy, busy.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

So I'm trying to outrun the morning. And you know, you can't do that.

[Chad Sanders]

Do you think an artist in that place of like, he was Kanye west at that time, like, he was the biggest fucking artist. Do you think you can take a moment to sit and grieve in the heat, in the peak of your heat?

[Unknown]

Yes, absolutely. There used. It used to be that artists would disappear, right. Michael Jackson drop an album and he goes away. Right. Janet Jackson, whatever. There was a period of missing them, right. In them. At some point, I think in the 90s or 00s, you started to see perpetual artists who never go away. And they're constantly in your face in a movie or paparazzi or never forget about. Kim is a perpetual artist, people. She's not an artist. She's a pop cultural artist. Whatever.

[Chad Sanders]

I see it that way too.

[Unknown]

Um, yeah. And you don't have to be that, really. You can disappear. I mean, like, if you don't take care of yourself, you don't have anything to give other people. You have to put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your child.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Cause you have to take care of yourself before you can take care of anyone else. So, you know, you have to take that two weeks, three weeks, four weeks therapy, Whatever it takes to start to grapple. Cause he's still. It's not mental health. It's about trolling the country. That's what it's really about.

[Chad Sanders]

I mean, I don't know how far you want to go. You know what? Cause last time you were like, chad, you talk. Cause this is so. I'm gonna say I go back and forth with this as I see him. And I also see our tech oligarchs, who I think are all still mad at somebody. Their dad, their mom, a girl that they liked, a boy that they liked. And it's never over. It's never over until they have crushed everybody. I see that in Kanye, but I also see, like, I think I see and I write about this in the book. Someone who thought, if I ascend to a certain place in money and status and artistry, I don't have to deal with white supremacy anymore. And he even tried to marry his way out of it. And yet.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. And. And it seems like that kind of thing.

[Unknown]

Ish.

[Chad Sanders]

Makes people go crazy.

[Unknown]

Yes. With the. Married his way out of. Yes. Although that whole family is marrying black. So I'm not sure if you can marry. If you can. I know. I know what you mean. The concept of trying to marry out of the race.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But I don't know if the Kardashians are that space when there's. They all look uniform, even the old. They all have black men.

[Chad Sanders]

Right. Every Christmas card looks the same.

[Unknown]

Right? Yeah. What is your question?

[Chad Sanders]

The question is unanswerable. I'm trying to figure out Kanye.

[Unknown]

I think that the. I interviewed his mother. I saw them together. I think the core of Kanye is that. And we talked about. I talked about this with Dr. West, that she was the sort of parent who worshiped the ground that he walked on. The single parent, single child. You can do anything. You are a genius. You are amazing. And that's beautiful. That is fantastic. And you see that in the documentary. That she's just like everything. She is his biggest cheerleader. You are the greatest, Kanye. You are so brilliant, Kanye. And that is beautiful. And children, especially black children, should be filled with that. And that's what home should be. A place where we're building the children up. I think that with this specific situation, he used it to form this ego that was necessary to make these massive leaps from a teenager in the suburbs of Chicago to being in the hip hop industry, to being a producer, to being a rapper, to being a rapper, to being, like, a known rock star. Good rapper. Rock star. Like, he needed the ego to make these leaps now as time goes on, and the ego, you think has to keep getting bigger and bigger. And we're entering trolling culture, right? Manosphere culture. Oh God, he's tapping into that. And like billionaire culture. Like billionaire savior culture. Like, he's tapping into the. So he, you know, so it's like, I actually am here to save the world. I can save the world. But also I'm gonna say the wildest things. Cause you know, it's just jokes, right? That whole thing of. Right. Like you're. You mad. That whole, that whole. So that's sort of the game that he's playing, where the ego that mom put into him, that helped him get to a certain level is transmogrified into something friggin disgusting and ridiculous.

[Chad Sanders]

That is interesting. I see also this is now. I love this Kanye analysis that we're doing. Because also I'm 36. Kanye is such a huge part of the culture I was came of age in. So two other things happened around this time that I was engaging there. We went to like his Yeezy office out there in the middle of nowhere in Calabasas. For people who haven't. Like, people. People rap about Calabasas and shit. But like, I. I'm sure you have been there. But for people who haven't been there, like, that's the desert. Like, it's not cool. I mean, it's. It's cool because you get space and it's beautiful, but it's not somewhere sexy to live, in my opinion. So we go to the easy office. All these people are working in there. Like people who have studied all over the world, people who have flown in internationally to work there. People around my age, maybe a little younger. At that time I was in my late 20s and I was just. I learned something that I have taken with me, which is if somebody sets a compass, like a direction, and they look like they know where they're going, people will just follow unpaid. People will just follow without a contract. People will just follow to be close to the thing, which I had never seen that up close in person anywhere besides church.

[Unknown]

You talk about Jay Z in this book. Late stage Jay Z is interesting. You're on like billionaire hanging with the owner's Jay Z. Yeah. And I'm like, did we get enough in the trade of Jay Z ascends to running the Super Bowl. And we get the Weeknd, Rihanna, Kendrick, and whoever he puts up next year, Dr. Dre. But we lost the whole Kaepernick battle. Cause the whole thing was Jay Z comes in and like, okay, enough of Kaepernick. I Mean, I wonder if it was written into the contract that Jay Z would go into the press conference and say the time for kneeling is over.

[Chad Sanders]

Possibly.

[Unknown]

You know, these contracts.

[Chad Sanders]

Did we get enough in the trade? No, first. I mean, that's an. I think that's a. Yeah, right. Did we get anything?

[Unknown]

I mean, well, we got the Kendrick Lamar.

[Chad Sanders]

We got concerts.

[Unknown]

Yes. And the Rihanna and the. The weekend.

[Chad Sanders]

And that's not. No, that's. That's nothing. Like, that's an air burger. Like, that's. That's literally nothing. I mean, come on. What.

[Unknown]

It's better than up with people.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. I mean, that's cool that we got some artists that we love in front of us.

[Unknown]

It's nothing. It's.

[Chad Sanders]

It's air burgers. That's. I don't think we've gotten anything. And I also. I mean, we got end racism on the jerseys, you know, like.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Chad Sanders]

We got. I don't know if someone like Jay. I don't take Jay Z out of it. I don't know if a black person can move into a C suite anywhere surrounded by older, stodgy white guys and make an impact. I don't know if that can happen. I don't even think that the president can do it.

[Unknown]

Can you make an impact? I mean, I think the president and we mean Obama did make an impact. I think that you can make an impact, a local impact, as far as for yourself. You might be able to bring some people along. You're not gonna be able to revolutionize the system as a minority within the system, but you can push the ball down the field.

[Chad Sanders]

What would it have looked like if we got what we wanted from Jay Z in this?

[Unknown]

Well, for one thing, Kaepernick would have got a shot, a real shot. That practice that they had, that was bullshit. They paid him off. So he would go away and it would look good, but, like, give him a real shot to get back in the league.

[Chad Sanders]

I have a friend who works with NFL quarterbacks, and he's usually pretty radical black man. Like, that's his position on most things. He's of the belief. I just want to run this by you because it's always stuck with me, and I don't know where I sit on it. He feels like Colin Kaepernick made a choice, a choice that he had clear eyes on, and the choice being what he can take this stand and what will come. This actually dovetails quite well with the book. And what will come with it is sort of a raised international profile and all of the Opportunities that come with that.

[Unknown]

How would you know? How would you know? Not you. How would one know? How would Colin know? If I kneel, that will make my profile. How would you know? And how would you know that it will make my profile grow in a positive way? How? I mean, like, really, it's about as far as his lifetime economics.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Nike says, we are sticking with you. Here's a big check. Even though you're not gonna be playing anymore, because we still like you and want you to be part of our community. If they're like, we're out of here. You know, I don't know where he is financially.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But they stand by. But, like, you can't know.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

It's. I think there's a little bit of. I don't know if you'd call it hindsight bias, but, like, the notion of, like, the future was knowable in the past. Like, I think he took a principled stand because he needed to say something about the situation.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

I don't think that it was about what it would benefit him personally. I think it was about. I feel a burning responsibility to stand up, given my platform.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

I don't think he's like, well, my career's almost over. I don't think he's making a personal or economic or cultural calculation. And I think that we saw he was not a very good messenger. Not verbally, no.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Right. Physically, as far as doing it on the field and adapting the protest. Because at first they were doing it in one way, and he spoke to a brother on the team who was like, well, as a veteran, let's work this out. And they changed the way they did it.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

So it's like, I have the ability to learn how to present my conversation physically.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

But then they interview him in the locker room, and he was not the best messenger. He's not Mark Lamont Hill. He's not Michael Eric Dyson. And we saw that. So to see that, I'm like, I feel like you felt a burning amount of responsibility and saw an avenue. But are you calculating in 3D chess, if I do this, then this will happen, and the response to that will be this, and the response to that will be no. So who could even think that far ahead?

[Chad Sanders]

I gotta ask you this because it is the. To me, it is the question in the subject matter of quote, unquote, selling out, which is. I understand now that, okay, Joy Ann Reid is in the news for this. I understand there's a calculus for me, regardless of what I feel about that. I know that if I speak on it, there's growth for me in my business, in my engagement. I know that. Like, I can't unknow it. Right. There's also stuff that's scary to talk about right now.

[Unknown]

Like what?

[Chad Sanders]

Things around what's happening in our government, our president, dictatorship, all this stuff. Right. You talk about it very like, I don't have your bravery around those topics.

[Unknown]

You don't want to talk about that because you're. You're afraid of an official response.

[Chad Sanders]

That stuff's scary. I mean, let me be so precise about it. I don't have the reps yet that I think you have speaking to the.

[Unknown]

Point I can't even think about anything else. I had a plan for things that I want to talk about this week culturally, as far as on TikTok.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

I can't even think about anything else. I'm like, how could you talk about not like us when you're suddenly in a dictatorship?

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

How could you not be saying hello, hello, you guys. Like, we're in a. And I think there's a lot of people who are like, wait, what? Like they don't even realize it.

[Chad Sanders]

I think people, some people are so scared that it makes you avoidant.

[Unknown]

It's like just said right before you came in, New York Times said that they are now going to basically be more selective on which organizations are allowed to ask questions.

[Chad Sanders]

Wait, what?

[Unknown]

So they're basically not going to take questions from like the New York Times and like organizations that might ask a serious, real question.

[Chad Sanders]

Who said this?

[Unknown]

The White House. And they're going to focus on operations that will ask bullshit questions.

[Chad Sanders]

So only Joe Rogan can now enter the president?

[Unknown]

Basically. Yeah, basically. Not just no. In the briefing room.

[Chad Sanders]

Oh God.

[Unknown]

I mean, we already are too. Only Joe Rogan is going to get. Only people who will give you a baby interview will even get a chance to interview you. But now in the press briefing, real media won't even get. So now we don't have actual oversight of what's going on.

[Chad Sanders]

And it is nowhere. I have two questions from. There is nowhere in your calculus that this is the thing. These are the hot buttons of the moment and they will be good for business for you. And also that's one question. Is that the case?

[Unknown]

I do my best to be aware of what are my sort of people wanting to talk about. And if I perceive that, then I will talk about that I may not be aware of. What is the issue that is on there? I may not be able to Find it. I may notice. Oh, chad got a 300,000 view video out of that. I didn't realize everybody wanted to talk about Chief Keef today. I didn't know. But, yeah, you try to be aware of that. I mean, this specific issue is on my heart. It's in you, and I can't think about anything else. There's times when, yes, I'm making a calculation. People want to hear about this, so I talk about it. Yeah, Joy Reid's a friend of mine. So I'm like. When I'm doing posts about her, it's not. I am aware that the audience wants to hear about it, right? But it's also like, well, if the audience wants to hear about it, then somebody who's a friend of hers who can, you know, put in, like, I did a whole thing on, like, her show last night. I thought it was valuable for people to, like, just talk about that, right?

[Chad Sanders]

And then this question. So basic. But it is really important to me. Like, you're not scared. Like, you don't get scared of if.

[Unknown]

So, yeah, you keep asking me questions.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm sorry. And then this is my last question. I'm sorry.

[Unknown]

So I'll tell you in the form of a story. This is sort of like, capsulates sort of a lot of who I am in this regard. So I did a cover story on 50 Cent when he first blew up, right? And it was like, wow. Like, his physique is massive. Like, up close, you're like, jesus Christ, you are fucking huge.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

The summer after that story, the baseball steroid scandal happened with Sammy Sosa, Mark McGuire. And that's when our public consciousness of steroids went way up. And I'm like, oh, he doesn't look like that just now. He uses steroids. Nothing wrong with that. He's not a professional athlete. So the next year after that, I interviewed him at bet. And I was like, you're so big. You're not a professional athlete. Do you use steroids? There's nothing wrong if you're not a professional athlete. It's wrong. Cause it's cheating if you're not a professional athlete. Go ahead. It's fine, right? So he was like, I'm very offended at the question. My nutritionist is right in the next room. He travels with me all the time. Make sure I eat right. Like, how could you ask me that question? That's so fucked up, huh? Okay. You have educated me. Like, whatever. The next year, a story comes out, the New York Times, here's the doctor in Westchester who Provides steroids for Timbaland and Mary J. Blige and 50 Cent. I'm like, you do fucking use steroids, okay? And like, what the actual fuck? You fucking lied to me. So the next year I get an interview with him for Fuse. And it's an hour long televised one on one, so we're gonna go about an hour. So we've been there for about 55 minutes. Fantastic interview. Everything's going great and I can see the clock we're about to run down. And what you might describe as the devil appears on my shoulder and says, oh, you're not going to ask him about steroids? Are you a fucking wimp? What the fuck is wrong with you? What do you think he's going to do, punch you? You're afraid to ask. And this guy's going fucking nuts on my shoulder like, are you a fucking wimp? Are you fucking kidding me? Are you? You look this. And the angel's like, please chill. Like, I don't think this is appropriate. And when he says, I don't think it's appropriate, then he is like, oh, well, then it's definitely appropriate because you can't not ask because you're scared. That could never be the reason why you don't say what you want to say.

[Chad Sanders]

Don't be a bitch doll.

[Unknown]

So then I'm like, so we've talked before about steroids and you are not a professional athlete. You are not a teenager. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you doing steroids. And we know that you do steroids, so why don't you just say that you do steroids? Now I can already hear because all his people, label people are there, right? There's already rustling in the distance. The label is like, what the fuck is going on? Why is he talking about this? Make him stop. I'm sure the producer has already said it's already edited out, but even finish the interview, we'll cut it out, don't worry. And so he laughs this like, devil laugh. And then he says, a lot of rappers say you're an asshole. And I'm like. And then he's like, I just say you ask fucked up questions. And that's the end of that. Of course they cut that whole moment out. But the point is that at the moment of should I say X, there's definitely a voice of like, well, if you're afraid the good stuff that you have to say it, Are you fucking kid. I'm not going to let somebody fear me into not saying what I think is right. If it's not accurate, then we need to work on it, right? If we need to, we need to do more research, then great, let's do that. But like I can't be. I'm not afraid of you or anyone to not say what I think is real. Yes, like that would be. How could you do that?

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, that's your journalistic backbone. Well, I'm not asking any follow up questions. You're fucking idiot.

[Unknown]

What else do you want to tell us about your book?

[Chad Sanders]

Oh man, that question. Because I know what that question means.

[Unknown]

It's like it doesn't mean anything. It means that you have gone through most of the questions that I asked.

[Chad Sanders]

That's what it means. I know that. That's what I'm saying. I know what that question means. It means I don't have any more questions, so just talk now. I get it. I'm young, but I'm not totally new to this shit. Like I get it.

[Unknown]

I don't know, like you have taken off my shirts. No, see right through.

[Chad Sanders]

I'll just get some shit. No, this is great. Look, this is a very valuable microphone to have in your face. So I will just get some shit off. That's, that's awesome. What do I think? I think people are, I'm very much still tapped into like the community of people who have their head in the sand right now about their jobs. And I'm talking about black folks with fancy LinkedIn titles. Like they're about to get fired. I mean they're about to, they're going to get demoted, they're going to get fired, they're going to get moved around the company and then moved out.

[Unknown]

You mean because of dei? The demise of dei?

[Chad Sanders]

I think because of the demise of dei, like as sort of the tactical starting point. But honestly because of the way that is empowering white people in high up in corporations to do whatever the fuck they want. Like the end of DEI is like that's the thread. But when you pull it, it's. I was just in Atlanta, I get in an Uber coming out my boy's house in Smyrna. 50 ish year old black woman from Chicago who's been in Atlanta for 30 years. I get in the car and you know how it is when you can feel someone has something pent up that they just have to hand off to somebody. And I, and I, you know, I respected her and I wanted her to have that with me. So I just, I opened the door for it and what came flooding in was her telling me about how everything about her job as an Uber driver has changed in the last six months because white people in Georgia now are treating her like a fucking slave. Because they get in the car and they tell. Instead of saying, ma'am, I'm sorry, I'm in a rush. Would you please. Would you please drive a little faster? It's. They get in the car and they say, can you. Can you step on it? They get in the car and they say, hurry up. I don't want to hear that music. Turn it off. Instead of saying, I got a headache. You know, and it's like those small. You know, those little. Those are not small things. I'm. I'm calling them small because they're interpersonal. But, like, the summation of all of that, it's in our offices, it's in our communities, it's in the Ubers. Like, those. I have so many friends right now who are like, it's too late for me. I have a mortgage. I have children. I have this job. I. I don't want to look at what's happening right now, but, like, it feels like one of the. You said it. You said it about something else earlier. It feels like one of those moments where the sky is falling and people want to pretend like it's not because they just want to get to tomorrow. And now that I got this mic in my face, I'm just like, dude, it's happening. You're watching it. You're watching people who mean a lot more to their place of work than you do getting their heads chopped off. So that. There's my. Preach.

[Unknown]

What else would you like to tell us about your book? I'm kidding.

[Chad Sanders]

What else is in there?

[Unknown]

Let me do my actual. Let me do some actual work, because he'll make fun of me if I just toss him a softball. Yeah, I mean, what's the. I do. Ask this question, please, from time to time. What is the most racist thing that ever happened to you?

[Chad Sanders]

You ask people that. You're really asking for it, too, with the. The breakup thing, too. God dang. What's the most racist thing? Is that real to me? Now I gotta think about what makes something the most racist. I mean, I've gotten the inbomb dropped on me, but that feels so cliche at this point.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

What's the most racist thing that's happened to me? Hmm. I'll just give one that comes up. I don't know if it's the one. This is right before the 2020 election, and me and my then girlfriend, we were Driving around, we had driven up to, like, a vineyard or something. What's that? What is that? Like, near the Hamptons, where they got, like, beaches and wine yards and stuff. We lived in Queens, but we were like, let's take a. Let's take a nice little weekend trip. We go up there and you will see a lot of people who resemble our president up there. You will see people who are spray tanned, look like they've been on a golf course. And there's a palpable in some areas around there. There's a palpable, like, taking up of space. If you don't look like you, You. You go there. And so we walked in some of the shops and I felt the eyes on us. And, you know, you see people doing a little bit of extra chest puffing and stuff to make sure that you don't take up their space. But it was on the car ride back after we had had a pretty shitty time up there, to be honest, dealing with all that. We stop at a light at this point. I'm driving a Jeep Wrangler, so I got the, like, you know, the windows and the stuff off of it so that somebody could have flicked a pebble in our car. This guy, a trucker actually, of all people, pulls up next to us and he. I look. We kind of like make eye contact, and I just like, look straight ahead. Leave him alone. And then he just yelled, go home. And I don't. I wouldn't say that is the most racist thing. That's pretty. Like, that's just kind of part and parcel of being a black person in this country. But I didn't even, like, acknowledge it as something racist until probably the next day because I was just a tightly wound, angry black man for the next 24 hours. And my girlfriend had to ask me. She was like, are you okay with what happened yesterday? And I was so not okay. I was so, like. I had spent those 24 hours thinking about, like, what the fuck even is home? Do I have a home? Like, what, he's telling me to go somewhere. Where does he want me to go? I'm already in New York City, technically, I guess. Yeah, Long Island. Where does he want me to go? Where is home? And that hasn't left me. I'm like, where do you think is home for me? I'm an African American. I don't know.

[Unknown]

No, the notion of home is really fraught for us.

[Chad Sanders]

And, like, what do you think of his home Here?

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, for sure.

[Chad Sanders]

Like New York City.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

Because you Built your life here.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I've been here for a long time, and my father was here, so I feel a connection of, you know, in the area that he was in.

[Chad Sanders]

Right. I asked you another question.

[Unknown]

You did?

[Chad Sanders]

I did. My bad. I do that.

[Unknown]

You're the worst.

[Chad Sanders]

Oh, no. But I am curious about you.

[Unknown]

Like, you know, what else would you like to ask?

[Chad Sanders]

Did you finish all your questions? Because I will ask a question if you.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I did. You ran through all my little.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay, I do have a question for you. This is gonna. This is gonna come out of nowhere. So here comes. I have, like. There's a. There's, like, a unit. I'm calling them a unit, but there's, like, a group of black men who are between 10 and 20 years older than me, who are smart, who have big voices in media. I'm gonna start listing them. Charlamagne Bomani, Van. You know, all these guys?

[Unknown]

Yes, that's the list.

[Chad Sanders]

I would call that, like, the nucleus of this list. You're obviously included because.

[Unknown]

Not in the nucleus, but.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay. Well, I was trying to leave you out of it because of the question. Like, oh, I'll start. I'll say this about Hollywood first. And then now that I'm kind of moving into this space, I have felt at times welcome by the class of guys, similar to them, but in Hollywood, the Kenya Barris, the Will Packers. But I've also sensed a little bit of, like, this is our corner that I think I. You know, I felt that in college with the older guys. I felt that on basketball teams with the older guys.

[Unknown]

And I wonder, is it that in this community, that's what you're saying?

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. And I guess what I really want to ask is just, like, people give you the advice to connect to and lean on the other black folks in your industry and that you all will look out for each other. I mean, I can go down the list. Charles King, Issa, Gabrielle Union, of people who have given me that advice.

[Unknown]

And they've been good to you. They've been good to you? Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

I mean, we don't have. I don't have big relationships with any of those three people. I. I mean, they've been good to me in that they've shown up for me when asked in small ways and in big ways. And Issa's. On Issa's part. But, like, where do the. Like, where do the. Where are the lines on what to expect from your people in these businesses? Like, do you look at them like colleagues? Do you look at them like friends? Do you look at them, and I'm asking you personally, because, you know, all these guys, they've been on your show. Are they friends? Are they colleagues? Can you define it? Like, it feels very amorphous in Hollywood.

[Unknown]

Um, that's an interesting question. I mean, they are friends. I think most of the people you listed, I might text or I would text.

[Chad Sanders]

In what event?

[Unknown]

That's a great question. I mean, it depends on the level of friendship. I mean, like, Joy and I are very close. I could just text her and be like, you know, want to go have lunch? There are people who are of an equal level of fame who are not in my direct circle. So unless. So if something big happened, like, the news of. Like, the news of Joy on Saturday was a big connector. So now I could. You know how it is. Like, I could reach anybody talking about it, and, like, you know, aren't you sad about it? Like, you're on this big show and, like, we can commune about this because we're colleagues, but on a normal day, I wouldn't text you. Right? So that whole sort of status thing sort of breaks down of like, you can reach out to anybody on a big event, but, you know, you have your friends. I mean, you know, people. What can you expect? People have been really great, for the most part, at putting you on. Game of telling me, you know, look at this. Consider this. Check out this. Okay, These folks are hiring. Stay away from that one. Where people know, you know, where. Where people are able to say, stay woke. You know, look for this, look out for that. They have given that information to me. I have generally found the media folks who are my peers to be, for the most part, helpful, brotherly, sisterly, all sorts of things. I mean, I definitely come from an era when there weren't that many of us who were doing it at a big level, right? So we were looking out for each other, rooting for each other, you know, friendly with each other, might make an introduction for each other. But a lot of times it was, you know, especially the first ten some years of my career was quite often, like, the only black person in the group.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay?

[Unknown]

Only black person around it. Rolling Stone, the only black person around it, this or that.

[Chad Sanders]

So, I mean, let me refine the question, because the second question you asked me was how much money I made over a course of a few years. So I feel like I can ask anything, so I'm gonna do it.

[Unknown]

You were asking. You were talking about a very specific period of your life. I was. And you brought up that I was struggling with the money and how I felt about it.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes, but you just gave me some mentorship, which is to say you asked the 50 Cent a scary question, because you're like, if I have the question, it's my job to ask it.

[Unknown]

Well, yes, the emotional feeling of. I cannot allow myself to be afraid to ask the question. But you do have to also modulate, and this is part of what some of the White House people are going through now. Like, I asked that question. It was cut out of the interview before I even finished asking it. He's pissed off. His label people are pissed off. If they have another guest artist who might be controversial, they might say, we're nervous of Torre. Cause he. We don't know what he's gonna. We don't know that he's gonna play ball.

[Chad Sanders]

He's a live wire.

[Unknown]

Yeah, Right. We don't know that he's gonna. Right. And the bar is not that I say, I'm gonna be cool. It's that, you know, before we walk in the room, he's gonna. He's not gonna hurt us.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

So now I might have violated that. So the next interview, the next superstar from that label, you might not get. So what did you gain? Well, I mean, you asked a question. I stayed infidelity with my feelings, and I feel good about that. But. But did I just sort of put myself out there to get a penalty for no gain?

[Chad Sanders]

My sophomore point of view is. That is one way to look at. Again, very. This is my 36 years of wisdom. Right.

[Unknown]

You.

[Chad Sanders]

That's one way to look at it. But someone else in that room might have said, that guy is a. That guy is a renegade. Where I need that guy. That's the guy we're looking for.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, you. Yes. I mean, the. The interviewee side is not interested in that.

[Chad Sanders]

No, of course not, but we need them.

[Unknown]

I need to get the big interviews to be the big interview guy.

[Chad Sanders]

That's right.

[Unknown]

So then.

[Chad Sanders]

But damn.

[Unknown]

But it becomes of like, can I find a way to ask the difficult and compelling questions without pissing you. The subject off?

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Without freaking out your representatives.

[Chad Sanders]

Is that in service? I mean, truly, like, if what we're here to do is uncover truth.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

Is that in service of truth? If I. If I need to massage the guests to make them.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, it's the difference between a sledgehammer approach and a more surgical.

[Chad Sanders]

Approach, which you have now. The latter.

[Unknown]

Well, yeah. Of like, I would. I mean, I don't know that I could broach the Area of steroids with 50cent without it being offensive to him because it's stigmatized.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I tried to take the stigma out of it. I'm like, there really is no stigma in this area where it's a non athlete. Like, go for it.

[Chad Sanders]

But he feels like they're there.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Chad Sanders]

And his friends are athletes.

[Unknown]

But, like, if you could ask a difficult question in a way that was sympathetic, perhaps, so they feel like he gets me.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

So now I'm comfortable giving you that difficult nugget rather than you feel like he. I mean, you know, that came. The 50 cent moment came out of, I felt you lied to me and you tried to punk me on a lie.

[Chad Sanders]

Right, Right.

[Unknown]

We were on camera on bet and you were like, I don't take steroids. You're a fucking asshole for asking that question. Like, but you do take steroids. So I'm so, you know, it's. It's there. If we were in therapy, we might get down to like, were you taking a little bit of revenge maybe? Like, would I have asked it differently if the. If the previous chapters had never happened?

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

Maybe he still doesn't want to talk about steroids. But, like, you know, perhaps you might say, with R. Kelly, I was able to ask the question in a way that didn't implicate me.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

It was like, for his side, it was like, that's a fair question.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

But, you know, so they can't be like, oh, that interviewer.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Like, it's a. The problem is how you answered it.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Not me. Right. I didn't trap you.

[Chad Sanders]

No. You asked a fair question.

[Unknown]

A fricking basic softball.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

And you fail. So that was more subtle and nuanced and surgical of like, let's talk about the bullshit.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Rather than, you did fucking steroids and now everybody's fricking pissed.

[Chad Sanders]

Well, so, okay. And you have masterfully walked me away from the question a little bit, but I'm going to come back to it. I haven't lost it altogether, which is a lot of this book is me trying. It's like, good, you brought it back to the book.

[Unknown]

That's good, because the publisher is listening. Like, chad, talk about the fucking book. The interviewer keeps telling you to talk about the book you're talking about. You're asking about him. Talk about the fucking book.

[Chad Sanders]

Please make sure you keep this. If the publisher has anything to say about me as a marketing vessel for this book, I would take them up on that. On that discussion in a heartbeat. But, oh, so what I'm asking is, so much of this book is about. I keep pointing at your journal as though it's. The book is about. And every man who gets sucked into Hollywood or finds his way there however you want to look at it, but, like, just like the next creative who's trying to find their way into the industry in a. In a real way. And it's. It's really me, like, looking for answers, just like I am with you right now. I'm looking to figure out. And the question I was asking you here is. Is. Is there. Is it all just industry, or is there actually mentorship and relationship and friendship that supersedes that? We're all here to make money. We're all here to grow our brands.

[Unknown]

So I think. So. I have experience. Mentorship from who? From many people. I think about Greg Tate, I think about Stanley Crouch, Nelson George used to. There are people in the television industry. You wouldn't know that.

[Chad Sanders]

I. I didn't know those people.

[Unknown]

Okay, don't brag about that.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm trying not to, but I'm just being honest.

[Unknown]

These are. That. That would be. As a writer, that would be like. If you were a musician. And I was like, well, James Brown, George Clinton and Bob Marley. And you were like, who? And the audience was like, take it out. What the fuck is he talking about? If you really want to be a better writer, you should read Greg Tate's first collection, Flyboy in the Buttermilk and Stanley Crouch, Notes of a Hanging Judge. And Nelson George did a book called B Boys, Buppies, Baps and Bohos, which is. And this is mainly. These three guys were the titans of the generation above me. And they were mainly at the Village Voice, which let you stylistically do whatever the fuck you wanted to do. And for the most part, they let you write about whatever you wanted to write about. And they. It was like off Broadway in that brilliant artist would go and show the fuck out. And like, as far as writers like those guys, especially Tate, I mean, Tate is the. He is the James Brown. He's the North Star. He's the fucking guy. He's. And also the Michael Jordan, because he's still the fucking greatest. I can't write to his level. Nobody writes like Greg.

[Chad Sanders]

What is it about it?

[Unknown]

You'll read it. The writing has a musical and artistic quality in and of itself, to where the beauty of the sentences and the word choices and the rhythm of the work and the paragraphs is artistic in and of itself. So it doesn't matter what you're writing about.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

Cause the way you approach writing, because he's also a musician, was the writing has a musical, artistic quality to it. So I don't. You know what I mean?

[Chad Sanders]

But, yes, I do.

[Unknown]

Those people. And there are television people who. You wouldn't know their names, but, you know, I had a thing. I would never use the M word. Never ask people to be your mentor. And it's a very. It's a lot of pressure. A lot of younger people use that word. Don't use that word.

[Chad Sanders]

I never ask anybody that.

[Unknown]

No, I understand. But, yes, I would just go to an older person and start asking them questions. And they want to answer questions. They want to disseminate their wisdom.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

I gain nothing monetarily from sharing with you or whoever.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

But I enjoy sharing with you, and I enjoy sharing the knowledge and putting up on like, you got to read Greg Tate and you'll freaking call me back in a couple weeks and be like, this is incredible.

[Chad Sanders]

I'll do it. Like, I will do it. Which is. Actually, I feel like you're probably. Are we wrapping pretty soon? Because I want to make sure. One more thing is.

[Unknown]

Why do you want to go?

[Chad Sanders]

No, I'll sit here. I don't have to be till 8 o'clock.

[Unknown]

There's something else. We won't be here till 8, but is there something else that you like? Well, so. So you go to them and you just ask them questions and you want to meet them on their turf. A lot of times people are like, will you meet me for coffee Now I have to move schedule time. Yeah, meet them on their turf. I would go. When I was at MSNBC as a guest, I would go to the executive producer after the show, into his office, on his time. How do I get to host a show? Yeah, and we had that conversation maybe five, six times, and three or four of them was completely theoretical and hypothetical and, like, that's insane. And after a while, it became like, well, it's not completely insane. Well, maybe it could happen. You know, it kept getting closer and closer and closer, but because I'm in it, like, well, how do you. How do you host a show? What do you need to know? What do you. How do you do this? How do you do that? And. And he's giving it to you in chunks, and you start to know the person. They like coffee, they like pizza, they like candy, whatever. I'm coming by your office. I got the coffee you like. How do you do that thing? How do you edit that thing? You know, whatever you do. So now I'm learning from you and just. Cause I'm just in your face asking you questions. Asking you questions.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And that, you know, I used to just call these writers on a Friday, Saturday, whatever night, and. And just listen and they would just pontificate. Right. And I'm just learning how a writer thinks.

[Chad Sanders]

Pontification.

[Unknown]

Right. And it's just to, you know, I'm listening to that new album and I think. And I'm like, this is how a writer thinks through things. Okay, now I understand. Right. You know, so I wasn't asking them how do I write a great review.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm just like, give them space.

[Unknown]

What do you think about that? And give them space and just listen. How does a writer think, Right. As a television producer, think about these things? Just through asking you, just what do you think about things? So that's a big thing in terms of creating mentors, going older people. Just ask them questions Now. Now, I'd also say you can also, at my age, go to younger people, because part of what I see too, the boomers were like, you kids have nothing to teach us. I think for a lot of Gen Xers, it was like, we have a lot to learn from millennials and we respect and are happy to learn from them. And There are definitely 30 year olds and 40 year olds who have put me up on Game and various things and I'm like, please help me, because the world is changing faster and faster over time and we might need help. And there's definitely people who've been like, here's what you need to understand about YouTube or TikTok or whatever it may like, oh, okay, thank you. Now I understand a little bit, you know, so, I mean, just being willing and able to learn from whoever and ask them, you know, how rare it is for people to ask real questions and really listen to the answer.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

And not just talk about themselves and what they think.

[Chad Sanders]

I certainly do. I took three quick things from everything you just said. One is, I came in here shooting a video of BTS of what you have in here, and you asked me genuinely, without, like, implication, you were like, what are you gonna do with that?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

And you listened when I answered, and then we moved on. Second thing, which we didn't really get to here, was I was to your point. I don't know what the right word is to call it, but I was kind of brought into this industry in some ways by Spike Lee.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

I used to live on Fifth Avenue and Second street and Park. Second street in Park Slope. I would walk up Fifth Avenue, past Barclays, over to Fort Greene, sit in this. Sit outside this coffee shop called Baba Cool, and write my scripts. And one day I look over and Spike Lee sitting there, and I walk over and introduce myself and change my life.

[Unknown]

I'm just, oh, you were right near the office. The office is.

[Chad Sanders]

I was right across the street.

[Unknown]

The office is right there near Barbara Cool.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, but I wasn't, like, plotting. I was just like, yeah, just, you know, and. But to the point.

[Unknown]

And that's how you met Spike.

[Chad Sanders]

I go over and I said, the only thing I could come up with is, hey, I'm Chad. I went to Morehouse. Cause he went to Morehouse.

[Unknown]

Right, right, right.

[Chad Sanders]

And he's like, sit down. Puts his black bear away, and we talk for 30 minutes.

[Unknown]

Dog. You in the audience does not know. Spike is not necessarily friendly. He is friendly when he wants to be, and he's not friendly when he doesn't want to be. So there is a high chance that the story you tell is, I said, hi, Spike, I'm a huge fan. And he was like, huh? And that. That could happen, you know, I've seen.

[Chad Sanders]

It happen a million times.

[Unknown]

So you're very fortunate that Spike, because he don't do small talk.

[Chad Sanders]

No, no. Hell, no. That's in the book.

[Unknown]

You could talk about the Knicks, call.

[Chad Sanders]

Him on the phone or get to filmmaking.

[Unknown]

But, like, hey, how you doing? He's. He's, like, bored.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah, absolutely. 100.

[Unknown]

You got to cut right through.

[Chad Sanders]

Like, he'll tell you that.

[Unknown]

Saw your film. What are you doing next? How to knit. Nick skilled it last night.

[Chad Sanders]

Right? Don't give him the all shucks. How you doing?

[Unknown]

No, how you doing? Tell me something that Spike told you or taught you about Hollywood and filmmaking.

[Chad Sanders]

He taught me confidence.

[Unknown]

He's filled with that.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. And it's real confidence. He called my mom, who he knew had the keys to my confidence, and told her, your son is brilliant. Your son is doing it. Because I was. I couldn't feel confident until she stopped feeling scared of what I was up to. I've seen him walk, like. And I mean that literally. He walks like something's going on over here. You know what I'm saying? You've seen him walk probably a million times. He walks and people follow because there's a direction. He taught me. He taught me, like, having a direction is, in many cases, more important than even, like, where you're going. Just moving with a momentum and a velocity. You're gonna hit a wall, and then you Turn. And then you keep going. And then you hit another wall and you turn. You keep going. I saw that stuff from him. He didn't teach me in parables. He didn't teach me by being like, you know, he didn't teach me the way people like to teach in their crafted little bars of what works. He also taught me that what works for I'm gonna now say a hundred things. He taught me, but he taught me what worked for me won't work for you. He's very specific about that. He's like, I'm of a different generation. I have a different body. I'm a different person. I have a different mind.

[Unknown]

He's also already. He's already done it. So if you come out with a Spike Lee movie, you are copying.

[Chad Sanders]

You're copying.

[Unknown]

It was original when he did it.

[Chad Sanders]

And he would point out to me people who in my generation were copying him, and he didn't like that.

[Unknown]

Who did he say is copying?

[Chad Sanders]

What's this dude's name? This is the one where I'm going to think later and be like, should I have said that? It was the. I don't know. It was the Dear White People thing. It was the Dear White People.

[Unknown]

Oh, Justin Simeon. No, no. Justin Simeon is clearly. I think he's clear. And he's been on the show too. I think he's clear that he is absolutely inspired by Spike. I mean, I think Dear White. I mean, the first time I saw the Dear White People, because he made a short, like a piece of it for fundraising, so it looked like it was done right. And I was like. I mean, it was like, oh, my God, I want to see this film. But it's also like, this is clearly post Spike Lee. And I think it makes no. The filmmaking makes no bones about. Of course we're inspired by Spike Lee.

[Chad Sanders]

Right. And he would be clear that it is both flattering in a way, as I think anyone would feel. And it's also. He's still an artist. He's still himself to this day. 60, I want to say he's probably 65 years old. He does not think he is. Okay. He was shooting black Klansmen when we were working together. And so I would have to meet him at like 5:30 in the morning for coffee. That was the only time he could spare. And I remember getting there. I'm probably like 29. One day we're sitting at this diner that was across the street from 40 acres and a mule, which is gone now. It's been replaced by a wine by a wine restaurant. And he always would get there before I did, which was maddening because I would try to get there before him. I would sit down, he would laugh because he got there before me. And I remember asking him, he was telling me about their shooting schedule. They would have to drive two hours upstate, drive back. He would get home at 10:00, he'd be back up at 4 in the morning. And I'd be like, are you exhausted? And I, and his answer was, I'm energized. This is what I'm, this is what I'm living to do, you know? And that, like, purpose, I learned that from him. I, I, I feel crazy a lot of the time. I feel, like, nutty right now because I'm excited. And I wasn't excited for most of my young adult life, from college until the industry fell apart a few years ago. I was not excited. I was like an addict. I was like, I would get these spikes of energy and serotonin and then I would be down and sad. And right now I feel like a steady. I watched him. Like, he's so analog. I'm all over the place, but he's all over the place. He's analog. He's using a BlackBerry to respond to emails. He's not going through an agent. He's not going through a PR person. He's having his old students pick him up at the airport, doesn't have a driver. He's, you know, he's like, he's, he redlined my script with a pen. He's, he's, he's analog. Like, he's in it. He's not. Like, he came to my agency and sat next to me and took notes during the meeting. To just have his presence there, like, he's, It's a physical. Okay. I wonder if you feel this, but being a writer and being a creative person is a lot more of a physical job than people expect it to be. Does that make sense? It's, there's a lot more body involved than people think that there is.

[Unknown]

I don't know. I mean, not, not necessarily for me. I mean, I can't do it if I'm tired. But, like, I don't feel, I don't feel tired from writing. I am energized by the process of writing and editor and editing.

[Chad Sanders]

But you're in good shape. You take care of yourself, obviously. Yes.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

Is that not for the job?

[Unknown]

No.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

No, no.

[Chad Sanders]

That's just for life.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

How do you do it?

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, I, I mean, I'm a tennis player. I play every day. So. So the goal of. Or the. The pursuit of improvement, 1% better every day. Somehow some, like, that's, like, constant. So that's a whole other trajectory. And, you know, there's tournaments that I'll play this summer and, like, trying to win and, like, you know, that's a whole freaking competitive fire thing.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay, I'll give one more Spike thing. And this is very specific to screenwriters, but TV writers, screenwriters, like, don't. Don't try to say it in prose. Don't try to say it in dialogue. Don't try to say something out of a character's mouth. Once you start trying to do that, you are. It's just going to come out so junky, and people are going to know that's what you're. You're trying to preach to them now. Like, say it in movement, say it in images, which is very important to me. That is why I came in here with my phone out. Because I'm like, it's cute. If I go back and I tell them a story or write a caption about, oh, I met Terry and this, that, and the third. But, like, just let them see and tell them they can derive their own story from that. Spike's good at that.

[Unknown]

He.

[Chad Sanders]

I don't know if I think he became better at that over his career of like, take that out, take that out, take that out, take that out. Just show them what's going on. It's a visual medium. He's a visual person. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Better that over time, I guess. I wonder if his best films are the early ones. I think the first half of the career is more consistent, stronger than the second half.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. And also, I mean, yes, I think Malcolm X to me, is probably the best. Yeah, it's the best to you.

[Unknown]

I'd have to think. I have to think. I mean, it's up there. I just don't know. Is there something above that? I mean, for so many reasons, Malcolm X is a masterpiece. It's an epic. It's unbelievably. It's incredible. Denzel and all the things.

[Chad Sanders]

I love. Malcolm X, I love. He Got Game. I love. Yeah, I left the 25th hour.

[Unknown]

Okay, you need to stop. You need to stop. You need to slow down because now. Now you're glazing. That 25th hour is garbage.

[Chad Sanders]

You don't like that?

[Unknown]

Let me tell you something. I watched 25th Hour in a theater, and people were laughing. Really final act, laughing. That is bad.

[Chad Sanders]

I watched it in an Unfair.

[Unknown]

Bottom quartile Spike.

[Chad Sanders]

I watched it with his do the.

[Unknown]

Right Thing is top quarter.

[Chad Sanders]

C. Okay.

[Unknown]

Chiraq. Bottom quarter.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

What was the one about the prostitute sex line? The phone sex?

[Chad Sanders]

Not she's got to have it, but it was like girl 89.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Girl 8. Girl 8.

[Chad Sanders]

Is it girl 8? It's 80 something, right? It's girl.

[Unknown]

Girl 9. Girl 8. She's got to have it as top Spike.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. But you're also. Okay. You were of the age to watch those movies when they came out.

[Unknown]

Oh, absolutely. Spike himself was a phenomenon in terms of. Oh, my God, it's a new black filmmaker telling stories in our way. Like, oh, my God, we're so excited about that. He exists.

[Chad Sanders]

I had to go back to backward.

[Unknown]

I understand.

[Chad Sanders]

Which is why they do the right things. I watch them do the right thing.

[Unknown]

Is what it's not. It's not what for me. Security.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I'm gonna bring that up at.

[Chad Sanders]

The album is not my favorite Jay.

[Unknown]

Z album you're gonna get. I'm gonna bring this up at the black people meeting. You'll be in trouble. You fucked with do the Right Thing.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm not with. I'm not saying I'm fudgeing with it. I'm just saying it probably hit different if you were alive.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I know, but, like, when it came out, it's an incredible, incredible, taught story that really focuses on one place, one incident, one really organic, real, authentic, interracial clash that really defines so much of what New York City was about. But I'm trying to stay away from even the political to create this amazing vignette of this world and then have them dissolve into this chaos that is so real. This epic fight with so many people come together and have this massive. And then, I mean, like, very bold.

[Chad Sanders]

God damn.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah. I mean, and this is why. That's why I asked you the same question. I'm like, you guys aren't scared. Like, y'all don't be scared that there's.

[Unknown]

So much scared of what?

[Chad Sanders]

I don't know.

[Unknown]

You want me to be scared of.

[Chad Sanders]

Of punishment? Of you said official response is how you put it. Which was a really eloquent way to put it. But, like, you know.

[Unknown]

You know, perhaps at some point in the future, I'll be sitting in a jail cell and going, you know, when Chad said, you're not scared to say that shit, I was like, silly negro. Like, that's why he. I mean, you know, I think a lot about when Covid was first blowing up in Italy, and we were still like, wow, that shit is crazy. In other countries. And there was this video that went out on Jason Kocki's site where it was like, italians speak to themselves a week ago, and they're like, you don't need to go to that party. You don't need to go to the grocery store. And yet I did. And now we're all. And like, a week ago. My whole perspective has changed from a week. And I'm like. Like that here of like, yeah, it's all good, right? Like, yeah, I'm just talking my shit, right? And next week it'll be like, okay, now I really see why Chad was like, are you not seeing. Shut the fuck up, nigga. I mean, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Shit has gotten funky in the last hour. No, in the. No. With Spike. In the last, like, decade or so, we do 25th hour, which is not good. She Hate Me, which is problematic. Inside man is very strong. He didn't write it.

[Chad Sanders]

I liked Inside Man.

[Unknown]

He's very strong. He didn't write it. Yeah, so it stands out, right?

[Chad Sanders]

He didn't write 25th hour either. You're just saying you don't care about 25th. All right, moving on.

[Unknown]

No, I mean, like, it's a little different because you didn't write it. He's a writer. He's an auteur. You didn't Write Miracle at St. Anna is fine. Red Hook Summer is okay. Old Boy is fine. Da. Sweet butter Jesus. And then so we do sweet Budget, and then we go Chiraq.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm not corroborating. I'm. I'm staying out of this. I'm. This is where I draw the line.

[Unknown]

Black Klansman is.

[Chad Sanders]

I'll talk about Jay Z. I'll talk about Kanye.

[Unknown]

Very problematic.

[Chad Sanders]

I won't talk about why.

[Unknown]

You scared, nigga.

[Chad Sanders]

Right? There you go. Actually, I was. I do have another question. When the devil arrives on your.

[Unknown]

He's really not talking about Spike.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm not really?

[Unknown]

Really.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm not going to do it.

[Unknown]

I'm. I'm.

[Chad Sanders]

I'm. Nah, I'm not gonna do it. I. There's a few lines that is. I'm just not gonna do it. Not yet. Whose voice was it actually? The devil. Was it, like, a family member?

[Unknown]

No, it's me.

[Chad Sanders]

It's your only voice.

[Unknown]

It's just part of. Part of me. But you can't be scared. Scared? How would you be scared? Fuck is wrong with you? Scared, huh? What's he gonna do? You think he's gonna leap over here and punch you in the face? I mean, really, what's he gonna do?

[Chad Sanders]

I don't know. Fear's not rational that way, though.

[Unknown]

How could you be scared?

[Chad Sanders]

That's your voice.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Chad Sanders]

It's not somebody else who challenged you when you were younger?

[Unknown]

No.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay.

[Unknown]

I mean, I think all of our internal voices are partly coming from other people.

[Chad Sanders]

Yes.

[Unknown]

But, like, I don't know that. Like, I can identify other things where I'm like, okay, that's my father saying, like, you should do this, you should do that. Right. Or my mother saying, you shouldn't do this or whatever.

[Chad Sanders]

But that's not that.

[Unknown]

But that voice. I'm like, I don't know that to come from them.

[Chad Sanders]

Word. Okay. I believe.

[Unknown]

I mean, I imagine you perceive your father as. I perceive my father as being fearless, but I don't know that he would ever be in a situ. Would have ever been in a situation like me of like. Is it okay to ask this person this question in front of all these people? I don't know, but I'm gonna do it because I can't not do it. I couldn't.

[Chad Sanders]

Because it's the question.

[Unknown]

I couldn't. Yeah, but I mean, like, I couldn't have. I couldn't know. You wanted to ask this and you didn't.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

Because of fear. I don't even talk. I'm not. Like, I talk to dictators talking to recording artists.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

The fuck you think the rapper singer is going to do? What is R. Kelly going to do?

[Chad Sanders]

We weren't scared to ask that. But he's less scary.

[Unknown]

No, but this. The. But you're kind of on the fear of some sort of retaliation. The retaliation is different. The retaliation is more like, we're not going to run what, that bite.

[Chad Sanders]

Right.

[Unknown]

So if that conversation with R. Kelly, if I am more pronounced and make it clear to him in the audience he is a horrible person, then it doesn't run at all. So it has to come in at a certain frequency to where it can get through the gatekeepers. You know what I mean?

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Because that interview only aired once. Because after it aired, they were like, oh, you have to stop airing that R. Kelly. You have to stop airing that.

[Chad Sanders]

That only aired once. The R. Kelly. Yeah. When you get an answer like. Like the R. Kelly answer, like, do you. Do you then judge the person that you're sitting across from?

[Unknown]

I'm working. It's not for me to judge you. I have to get you to answer the question fully to where the audience understands what you're talking about, what you mean, what you think, how you feel.

[Chad Sanders]

Okay?

[Unknown]

So, I mean, it's not for me in this moment to go, that's a terrible thing that you're basically indicating you like teenage girls. The question is for me to get you to say the whole thing. So do I need to ask another question to get you to keep talking, or do I need to be quiet to get you to keep talking? You know, and that calculation changes, right? Like, after two seconds, after three seconds, after four, you know, you keep it like, should I ask another question? Should I be quiet? Right? You know? What should you ask? Whatever. Like, so there's a lot more going on in my head as you're talking in a big interview than my emotional reaction of, like, you're a bad person, you're gross. Like kids or whatever. The. Like, I don't like it. Later, I will get into that. But in the moment, I'm like, have you explained your point?

[Chad Sanders]

Well, because you asked me. You asked me. You were like, you're not saying you feel bad about what you did because you were anticipating. I guess you were anticipating. And I'm like, I'm still trying to figure out what's the part I should feel bad about.

[Unknown]

It hasn't hit me profiting on black pain.

[Chad Sanders]

I mean, it's my own shit. I'm a black. I mean, like.

[Unknown]

But you're not in pain. You're ma. You said you were making up the anger to have something to sell.

[Chad Sanders]

I was. I was. I was wrenching the anger. I was stirring up the anger, but it's still mine nonetheless. Like, who. Which one of us is not mad? Like, yeah, I know, but you.

[Unknown]

You.

[Chad Sanders]

I was doing it. I was putting it on extra.

[Unknown]

You're playing it up.

[Chad Sanders]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And I thought you were going to say you feel away about that.

[Chad Sanders]

No, because it's real. It's real. Like, that's. I can't even wrap my head around feeling bad around it. I'm like, no. I mean, isn't that the way. Like, I didn't ask. None of us asked for this shit. Like, what? I don't know. I don't know. I got to wrap my. I guess this is the Jay Z selling crack thing is like, do you feel bad that that's what you did? And he's like, well, no, I was trying to get from point A to point B and this. And I had crack.

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, you know, if your analogy is Jay Z selling crack, then.

[Chad Sanders]

I should feel bad.

[Unknown]

Here's your answer? I mean, that's the fucking analogy you came up with.

[Chad Sanders]

I don't know, yo. I don't know, yo. Now I gotta, now I gotta go home and sit with it and be like, nah, man. Cause I, I, you know, if times get tough, I'll do it again. I think I would. Yeah. I don't know.

[Unknown]

Thank you, Chad.

[Chad Sanders]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

That was great. Thanks so much to Chad for a great interview and thanks to you for watching. Toray show gives you fuel to power your dreams. Because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a real reality. And maybe somehow this show can help. I'm on TikTok Torre show and on Instagram torayshow. Torre show is written by me Torre and produced by Ashley Hobbs. Our editor is Ryan Woodhall. Our booker is Ray Holiday and we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back next Wednesday with more amazing guests because the man can't shut us down.

[Chad Sanders]

Sa.