Justin Simien - I Love Black Cinema

Summary

Podcast Summary: Toure Show | Episode: Justin Simien - I Love Black Cinema

Podcast Information:

• Title: Toure Show
• Host/Author: DCP Entertainment
• Episode: Justin Simien - I Love Black Cinema
• Release Date: March 9, 2025
• Description: Touré engages with successful individuals to uncover their paths to success and glean insights to aid listeners on their own journeys. New episodes drop every Wednesday, with throwbacks available on Sundays.

Guest:

• Justin Simien: Acclaimed filmmaker known for "Dear White People," discussing his docu-series "Hollywood Black" and the evolution of black cinema.

---

Introduction

The episode opens with Touré introducing Justin Simien, highlighting his pivotal role in modern black cinema and his latest work, a docu-series titled "Hollywood Black." Simien is praised as one of the great contemporary filmmakers, and the conversation sets out to explore the history, challenges, and triumphs within black cinema.

Notable Quote:

• Justin Simien [03:05]: "I'm good, man."

Jordan Peele and Ryan Coogler: Pillars of Modern Black Cinema

Simien and Touré delve into the significance of Jordan Peele and Ryan Coogler in redefining black cinema. They discuss Peele's groundbreaking work in horror with "Get Out," emphasizing its dual appeal to horror enthusiasts and black audiences by subverting traditional tropes.

Notable Quotes:

• Simien [03:24]: "I would say him and Ryan Coogler. Ryan Coogler really is like the reason Marvel is even really in the... the success of Black Panther is pretty hard to go backwards to."
• Touré [03:51]: "Peele, hey, he's like. He is a thing. He's a genre unto himself."

Exploring "Get Out": A Miracle in Storytelling

The discussion focuses on "Get Out," highlighting its complexity and ability to navigate both horror conventions and the unique experiences of black viewers. Simien applauds Peele's craftsmanship in creating a film that surprises and engages diverse audiences.

Notable Quotes:

• Simien [03:59]: "It's deceptively simple. But what he's doing, you know, I've had some experience in the horror space myself, especially with black characters... It is navigating both of those sets of expectations and happens to make a brilliant... It's like, a miracle movie."
• Touré [04:54]: "Brilliant conversation about race through horror."

Alternative Endings and Audience Reception

Touré and Simien critically examine the film's ending, debating the impact of a more realistic conclusion versus the one that ensures audience satisfaction. Simien argues that the chosen ending offers a more profound narrative experience, even if it diverges from traditional horror expectations.

Notable Quotes:

• Touré [05:02]: "And we all know the original ending was... he walks off into prison."
• Simien [05:18]: "Yes. But that would not have been a successful... it would have just been like, yeah, racism. We know."

Spotlight on Spike Lee and Ava DuVernay

The conversation shifts to legendary filmmakers Spike Lee and Ava DuVernay. Simien praises DuVernay for her emotionally charged documentaries like "13th" and "Selma," which humanize historical movements and reshape public perception.

Notable Quotes:

• Simien [18:58]: "Yes."
• Touré [18:58]: "Ava DuVernay is one of the stars of Hollywood Black. She is an incredible filmmaker... She makes it important for you to see it that way, too."

Blaxploitation and Its Legacy

Simien and Touré explore the blaxploitation era, acknowledging its role in providing black filmmakers and actors with opportunities post the collapse of the studio system. They discuss iconic films like "Sweetback's Badass Movie" and "Ganja and Hess," appreciating their artistic contributions despite the genre's commercial constraints.

Notable Quotes:

• Simien [30:12]: "Yes, we're both right."
• Touré [31:35]: "What is the best of the blaxploitation films for you?"
• Simien [31:39]: "I have a sweet spot for Trouble, man. Actually."

Tyler Perry: Commercial Success vs. Artistic Integrity

The dialogue turns to Tyler Perry, examining his dual role as a commercially successful producer and a controversial figure in black cinema. Simien acknowledges Perry's achievements in creating space for black narratives within a capitalist framework but voices concerns over the depth and quality of his storytelling.

Notable Quotes:

• Touré [39:47]: "Cause you touch on Tyler Perry, but the whole Tyler Perry thing is much more aesthetically and emotionally complex."
• Simien [40:38]: "He's completely alive in those movies in a way that is... How does Diana Ross convince you that she's Billie Holiday?"

Intersectionality: Black and Queer Identities in Film

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the intersectionality of black and queer identities, both personally and within cinema. Simien shares his experiences of feeling marginalized within the black community due to his sexuality and underscores the importance of authentic representation in film.

Notable Quotes:

• Simien [51:02]: "I felt like, yeah, I felt like I was in this limbo some kind of way."
• Touré [53:07]: "Which in some degree, some days, in some situations, you are black first and other times you are queer first or equally black and queer."

Influences on "Dear White People"

Simien elaborates on his influences for "Dear White People," citing filmmakers like Robert Altman and Fritz Lang for their narrative structures and social commentary. He emphasizes the importance of creating complex characters that reflect the multifaceted experiences of black individuals.

Notable Quotes:

• Simien [54:31]: "Robert Altman, so is Fritz Lang. A lot of those sort of composed shots where you see people in groups comes from my love of Fritz Lang."
• Touré [57:22]: "It is unbelievable to me that one of the great films of this era that I loved somehow came out of that long before we had met or anything."

Conclusion: Embracing Complexity in Black Cinema

Touré and Simien wrap up the discussion by reaffirming the necessity of embracing both the achievements and shortcomings within black cinema. Simien advocates for a nuanced appreciation that celebrates successes while constructively critiquing areas needing improvement, fostering a richer cinematic landscape.

Notable Quotes:

• Simien [37:16]: "And I know I'm in the minority, by the way."
• Touré [53:46]: "Which in some degree, some days, in some situations, you are black first and other times you are queer first or equally black and queer."

Closing Remarks

Touré thanks Justin Simien for the insightful conversation, emphasizing the episode's role in fueling listeners' dreams and encouraging engagement with black cinema history.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Justin Simien's Contributions: As a filmmaker, Simien is pivotal in advancing black narratives, particularly through works like "Dear White People" and his docu-series "Hollywood Black."
• Modern Influencers: Jordan Peele and Ryan Coogler are highlighted as transformative figures reshaping black cinema's landscape.
• Historical Context: The legacy of blaxploitation films and their impact on black independent filmmaking is examined.
• Intersectionality: The importance of representing multifaceted identities, such as being both black and queer, is a central theme.
• Critical Appreciation: The episode encourages a balanced view of black cinema, celebrating achievements while addressing ongoing challenges.

Resources:

• Visit the Show: Toure Show Website
• Follow Toure: Instagram, Twitter, TikTok (@toureshow)

---

This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, providing valuable insights into black cinema's past, present, and future through Justin Simien's experiences and perspectives.

Transcript

[Toure]

Today at T Mobile, I'm joined by.

[Justin Simeon]

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[Toure]

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[Justin Simeon]

That's quite a deal, Snoop.

[Toure]

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[Justin Simeon]

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[Toure]

Respect.

[Justin Simeon]

When we up out of here, see how you can save on wireless and streaming versus the other big guys@t mobile.com.

[Toure]

Switch Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later.

[Justin Simeon]

I'm ready for my life to change.

[Toure]

ABC tonight, American Idol returns.

[Justin Simeon]

Give it your all. Good luck. Come out with a golden ticket. Let's hear it. This is immense world. I've never seen anything like it.

[Toure]

And a new chapter begins.

[Justin Simeon]

We're going to Hollywood.

[Toure]

Carrie Underwood joins Lionel Richie, Luke Bryant and Ryan Seacrest on American Idol season premiere tonight, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Justin Simeon]

Victoria Ray show okay though. Victoria Racha.

[Toure]

Okay, though. That might be the best question I've ever been asked.

[Justin Simeon]

You's a phenomenal person. I mean, you. Legendary. I am a fan of you. My brother.

[Toure]

When he is captured.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

The way he behaves, they're like, well, he must be different than them. Cause they. The other ones literally don't leave the cage even when the door's open.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

And they're like, well, he must be. Look at him.

[Justin Simeon]

But can I tell you why I hate that?

[Toure]

Come on, Taray.

[Justin Simeon]

I'm sorry. Come on. It affirms the white belief that the reason, the only reason why we can't succeed is our attitude.

[Toure]

I don't think that's fair.

[Justin Simeon]

And I didn't say that that's what the movie's saying. I'm just saying that's why I'm not as excited about that aspect of the film. Because I'm like, yeah, of course a white person would write that. That a black man just decides he's free and that's all it ever took. That's a very white.

[Toure]

He is liberated by a white man. Then he gets to. Right, of course. And then he gets to show you who he really is.

[Justin Simeon]

None of this works for me. His accent isn't even right. I don't. No, I don't. I can't.

[Toure]

Justin Simeon is one of the great filmmakers of our time. The man behind Dear White People is back with a docu series called Hollywood Black. It is an extraordinary look at the history of black Cinema. So of course, I had him over to come and argue about black history, black cinema, all the things Tyler Perry, Ryan Coogler. We talk about Tarantino, we talk about Denzel, we talk about all Spike, Jordan, all the stars of black cinema, blaxploitation. It is an extraordinary conversation about being black at the movies. Let's get into it. It's Justin Simeon on Torre Show. How are you?

[Justin Simeon]

I'm good, man.

[Toure]

So I love Hollywood black.

[Justin Simeon]

Thank you.

[Toure]

It's this fantastic conversation about black cinema. And of course, you land on Jordan Peele.

[Justin Simeon]

Right?

[Toure]

He is the sun around which modern black cinema revolves. Right. He's the number one guy right now.

[Justin Simeon]

I would say him and Ryan Coogler. Yeah. I mean, Ryan Coogler really is like, the reason Marvel is even really in the. In my opinion, like, the success of Black Panther is pretty hard to go backwards to.

[Toure]

I think Coogler, I think he is primarily. I mean, like, he's great. Fruitvale's great, but he is Black Panther.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah.

[Toure]

Jordan Peele.

[Justin Simeon]

And he's also Creed. So he's got two franchises, but Jordan.

[Toure]

Peele, hey, he's like. He is a thing. He's a genre of himself.

[Justin Simeon]

He is a genre unto himself. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[Toure]

What's his best film?

[Justin Simeon]

I mean, for me, it's still get out. Get out. I still watch that movie. And it's a miracle movie where I'm like, I recognize new craft in it each time I watch it. It's deceptively simple. But what he's doing, you know, I've had some experience in the horror space myself, especially with black characters. And it is so navigating the horror tropes. Because with a horror movie, you both have to get the horror kids who have seen everything, which means you have to prove a knowledge and understanding of how the tropes work and how they always work and then subvert them a little bit. So you got that. But then you also have black people who have a different experience altogether watching a horror movie. And what happens to the black character in that movie affects us in kind of different ways. And he, in that movie is sort of navigating both of those sets of expectations and happens to make a brilliant. With something to say that sneaks up on. It's like a miracle movie.

[Toure]

Brilliant conversation about race through horror. I think that he chose the wrong ending.

[Justin Simeon]

Oh.

[Toure]

And we all know the original ending was.

[Justin Simeon]

This was hard. Disagree.

[Toure]

A real cop comes, he gets arrested, and there's a scene where. With. Where he's talking to l'rell yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he walks off into prison.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

And I'm like, that is reality. That. And, like, we know, like, it's reality.

[Justin Simeon]

But that would not have been a success. It would not have been a successful. And I just. I know this in my bones because I literally did this myself. Bad Hair ends with that lead character dying in what I think is a deliciously horrific way. But boy, oh, boy, people were upset about it. And maybe that's okay that they can be upset, but, like, it really. The dynamic in a horror movie is just reversed with black people because we're used to seeing ourselves die and be denigrated on screen. Die first and die first, but just die at all. Meet a horrible, tragic, and untimely end. So when it happens to us in a narrative, it doesn't hit in the same. It just. It literally, from an entertainment point of view, it doesn't hit in the same way in get out when you just are positive he's about to go to jail, because that's how the trope always works. And it's Laurel, and he doesn't go to jail. The exuberance that I felt in myself and in the audience, that's what moviemaking is about. It's about unleashing that feeling in an audience. And it actually was like, the. More in my. And I know this is the thing. People talk. I have this conversation all the time. It's one of my favorites. But that's where I landed on it, is that it actually was more novel to end it the way he ends it. And I believe they even tested that original ending. I could be wrong.

[Toure]

Oh, for sure.

[Justin Simeon]

And people didn't like it, but it was like it. I get it.

[Toure]

I feel like it's a little jokey to have, like, his best buddy shows up and not the cops and they escape.

[Justin Simeon]

But you're saying, but I didn't see it coming. What I saw coming was him dying. And with a horror movie, there has to be an element of surprise in the way it ends. And for whatever reason, when black people die on screen, it doesn't have that same surprise.

[Toure]

But part of what you're saying is, as a filmmaker, especially black audiences, you kind of want to send them home happy.

[Justin Simeon]

I'm not going to say happy. That's not always. It's not always send them home happy. But you do have to surprise them. Yeah, you have to surprise any audience, I think. And I think the way you surprise an audience is you lead them down a path. You sort of anticipate what they're gonna expect next. And you find a way to give them what they didn't know they wanted. That's always how you're trying to end a movie. And it just so happens in that movie because it's a horror, and it has a horror structure that, like. And I can't even say that movie's happy. This man is messed up for life. I mean, the things he. The gas escapes. He escapes with his physical life, but his psychological life is in tatters. Okay. And I feel like, you know, Jordan in that movie, for me, he surprised me, and it was an inevitable ending. And I feel like that's just really good storytelling. That's like. That's holding an audience in your hand, you know? And you can do it in a tragic way. You can do it in a positive way. But if he had gone to jail at the end of that movie, nothing would have been surprising about that ending. It would have just been like, yeah, racism. We know.

[Toure]

Right, right, right.

[Justin Simeon]

But we already know.

[Toure]

I think the Peeler canon is rife for argument as far as what's the best. Right. And, like, reasonable people could. I mean, I think us reaches very high heights in complexity and nuance and the depth of the metaphor and, I mean. Nope. Is so deep.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah. Nope. Is so deep.

[Toure]

And a conversation about making movies and dealing with the past and who you really are, who you want to be, and whatever's going on above us.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah. And the way we sort of, like, project certain ideas onto things that we don't understand, I thought was really interestingly applied. I mean, that's the thing about. What I love about what Jordan is doing, is that, like, he is, like you said, he's creating his own lane, he's creating his own genre. And it does remind me of Kubrick, where, like, when you watch a. I mean, for me, I'm a big fan of Stanley Kubrick, but the first few times I encountered his movies, I was like, that's not how a movie is supposed to work, sir. You know, I'm like, 12. What am I thinking? But, like, I'm like, that's not a space movie. What are you talking. Where are the lasers? You know? But he's sort of like. He's doing a thing that is very. Actually difficult as a black filmmaker, to do. Spike has gotten away with it a few times where you get the audience to bend past their own expectations into your set of expectations for what a narrative should be. And that, to me, is just really exciting to see that happening.

[Toure]

Nope. Gives us Perhaps the most original and beautiful vision of an alien ever. It's gorgeous.

[Justin Simeon]

It is gorgeous.

[Toure]

The alien that he created. Right? I mean, like, I'm like, how did you come. Cause all aliens, they don't look like that.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Toure]

It's amazing.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah. The sky shark. The sky shark. Such a cool idea.

[Toure]

Dragon jellyfish sort of thing.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Toure]

I wanna know, like, what were his notes for? Like, here's how we're gonna.

[Justin Simeon]

I also want to know, like, what hit, like, what he was. It feels like he was drawing from, like, some conspiracy theory thread that I've never heard of, but, like, seems really interesting. Like, I feel like somewhere on TikTok there was someone talking about sky sharks or something and how they're really. It just like, it's. It's such a, like, fleshed out, like, narrative world that you're discovering in. Nope. I just.

[Toure]

I mean, Kaluuya's character is beautiful to me because if you respect the animals, the beasts, and treat them with respect and kindness, then they will respond. You know, we first see it with the horses. He doesn't really like talking to people. Yeah, but with horses, he's good, right? And he treats them with love and respect. Yes. When the one gets out of the. Out of the enclosure, he just sidles up to him like, hey, what are you looking at? Not like, get back where you're supposed to be, but like, what are we looking at? Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's go home now. And the way that he interrelates with the alien, like, I can talk to him or Ian. I can make it, like, you know, do kind of what I needed to do.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Toure]

Spike Lee gets a lot, obviously, of love in Hollywood Black, of course. One of the biggest names in black cinema history. Maybe the biggest. I think there's a. Maybe three eras of Spike. At least two. Right. Early Spike. He's on fire. Those first five, maybe six, seven pictures.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Toure]

And then things start to go a little awry.

[Justin Simeon]

Do they? With Spike Chiraq.

[Toure]

Oh, Clockers.

[Justin Simeon]

First of all, Clockers is good. Clockers is a. I love Clockers. Don't make that face with Clockers. Oh, my God.

[Toure]

The audience that I saw it with was laughing at the end when they should not have been wake Clockers. And what was the one about?

[Justin Simeon]

But see, this is a conversation we were just having about Jordan, because I respect a filmmaker that takes the punch, like, I really do, that really tries for something and really tries to stretch, and it doesn't always work for everybody. And it doesn't work every film. You know, I mean, the ending of Jungle Fever is a little wild, you know what I'm saying? But I think someone yells no at the sky, it really kind of comes out of nowhere.

[Toure]

It's like a young filmmaker.

[Justin Simeon]

And likewise, when everything goes from black and white to color and she's gotta have it. But you know what? When I saw those things for the first time, I was like, oh, bitch, I can do anything right. And I feel like that's what you're supposed to feel. It's not. This expectation that every movie fit you like a designer shoe is crazy. You're supposed to argue about the movie. You're supposed to have both a subjective experience with the movie and also, at some point, recognize the person who made this thing is another human being with something to say. And now I'm in a conversation with this person. To me, like, that is what makes for a great filmmaker. So I.

[Toure]

So it's okay and perhaps natural for us to go to a film and say, okay, I loved that. I take issue with that. And that's just. We're in conversation with the film, I think.

[Justin Simeon]

So when I. Okay, so I had the benefit of going to performing arts high school, and in theater class, the first thing we did was we watched Raising the Sun. Actually, this is like how I fell in love with Sidney Poitier. And the first thing she asked us, and this wasn't even for movies, we're watching the movie Raising the Sun, and my theater teacher, Susie Phillips, she pauses the screen on the first frame, and it's Sidney Poitier's black face against a white pillow waking up. And she asks us, like, why do you think that's the first shot of the movie? And that was when I knew I was gonna be a filmmaker for the rest of my life. Because I was like, those are the choices that a filmmaker makes. And, you know, subconsciously, even if you were intellectually thinking, oh, he's a black man in a white world, there's something about that image that just hits your psyche. And in that class, you know, she taught us a way of thinking about story. And it wasn't like we had to write. We had to do these things called play reports. And I've never forgotten. This is how I always process things. She didn't care if you liked it or not. Whether you liked it or not, that's secondary. It was a section.

[Toure]

What is it?

[Justin Simeon]

What is it trying to do? Did it do that? And was doing that worth doing?

[Toure]

Those were the questions Your opinion of is it good or bad? Is getting in the way of you understanding what is this? And that reminds me, especially because there.

[Justin Simeon]

Are artists like Bertolt Brecht who want you to hate it, who. This is a playwright. He wants you to rub up against the aspects of his plays that feel artificial because he's making a statement about reality and da da da d and it's like, yeah, that's how art should function. It should be like a meal.

[Toure]

Questlove talks about this, that he does not think about music as good or bad. Right. He got divorced from that years ago. He's like, what is it trying to do? And does it succeed at that? And how does it work and why does it work or not?

[Justin Simeon]

I wish I want more black people specifically because we run the culture, obviously. But I want us to get accustomed to that way of digesting art, especially because when we make art, it's still. There's a filmmaker named Beverly, clearly who said this, and I agree. Black film is still in its experimental stage. We are still nascent.

[Toure]

Really.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes, Compared to the other kinds of tropes and characters. And we're still, you know, we're still like, white Hollywood is still, like, on the hero's journey kind of a thing. We have other ways of telling our stories that have not had, you know, multiple generations of trying out that story with casts and audiences. So, yeah, we're still in a nascent stage. I think it's really important for us to figure out a way to talk about things even if we don't like them, given the environment of making black art is so fragile that, like, it's. I think, yeah, that's how movies like Sidewalk Stories by Charles Lane get lost. Because they don't hit some kind of. Oh, this. We do this one in episode four a little bit. This is a movie from the 90s, actually. It's from the 80s. It came out the same year as do the Right Thing, but it didn't hit that sort of, like, sweet spot of what, you know, where black culture was at. It's not hip hop. It's not colorful. It's a silent movie. It's actually, like, kind of sweet and tender and quiet. And it didn't hit that sort of, like, black thing that executives knew how to market for. And so it just gets lost. But if we had our own culture and ability to sort of embrace things we don't quite fully get or like and da, da, da. I don't know. I just think that's a richer way to consume work. And it's a way to hold things that you maybe don't like without sort of shutting down that artist's path. You know, like with black stuff like you. Some folks really only get one shot. And if that. And it's always an experiment, and if that experiment doesn't come out exactly right artistically and for the culture and for the marketplace, all three, you may never hear from that person again.

[Toure]

My God, you remind me of Boots Riley, who's in your film.

[Justin Simeon]

I will take that.

[Toure]

I will take that. Well, just what you're saying, and this is a person who is making subversive films. These are the most anti capitalist films that we've ever seen that are actually working in a capitalist system.

[Justin Simeon]

Right. It's hard to do. So when something comes out and you didn't live for it, I think the more interesting thing to ask is what was that trying to do? Did it achieve that? And was that a worthwhile thing to do right now? Of all the things we could be doing, is that a worthwhile thing to do? Your data is like gold to hackers. They're selling your passwords, bank details and private messages. McAfee helps stop them. Secure VPN keeps your online activity private.

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[Justin Simeon]

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[Toure]

Ava DuVernay is one of the stars of Hollywood Black.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

She is incredible filmmaker, Right. I mean, already an extraordinary career. And what she did with the Central Park Five story, when they see us is so deeply emotional.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

And for many people, they come to the story with Ken Burns right when he does his documentary. And she brings so much more emotion and love. And it's like, you know, okay, mama's here to make you guys look right?

[Justin Simeon]

Yes. And she does this over and over again. When I saw Origin, I was like, how do you. I was furious because it's like, how do you even do that? How do you take what is like a textbook. And make this into an emotionally involving narrative story that doesn't work the way other movies work. And you leave me with a completely new concept of how racism works that changes the way I think about it, changes the way I move through the world. She did that with the 13th. She did that with Selma. For me, she made me see the human beings behind this movement. I love, love, love her as a filmmaker because just what catches her attention is so different than what's in the mainstream. And she makes it important to you to see it that way, too. And I just think it's a profound talent. That's not something you learn, really.

[Toure]

We were talking about the epic filmmakers of the time, and Coogler is one of them. But I think Black Panther stands above as, like, one of the central films of this era, because artistically and commercially.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And politically.

[Toure]

Well, that's where I'm going. Right, okay. Because, of course, I saw Black Panther at a screening at the MoMA. If, God forbid, a bomb had dropped, half of black culture would have been. I mean, you couldn't, like, throw a straw without, like, oh, there's Questlove. There's this one, there's that one. Oh, my God. This year is filled with amazing black people. So then we already knew. Right. And you felt it. Like, people were like, oh, my God, this is gonna be life changing. Before we even went in there.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes, absolutely.

[Toure]

First weekend with the kids. Like, all the kids in the neighborhood. We're all going together as families. Love it. Okay. As I take a breath in the subsequent years, I'm like, you know, it's really a film about black people in conflict with other black people, and they are not in conflict with the white oppressors who are actually holding them down. And In Black Panther 2, we get black people in conflict with Hispanic people.

[Justin Simeon]

Right, sure.

[Toure]

Or Latino people.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, sure, sure.

[Toure]

Right under the sea. And we're still not confronting the white people, who surely, if T'Challa was a real person.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah. He would be confronting.

[Toure]

And Killmonger, too, would be like, they are. And he is saying. Killmonger is saying we need to, like, get all our diasporic armies and attack them. Right. And T'Challa's like, I'm at war with you. Like, should we not be at war? So why is Black Panther not the enemy is wrong.

[Justin Simeon]

Well, okay.

[Toure]

And I understand the Malcolm Martin thing.

[Justin Simeon]

That they're doing, but where I'm going with this, though, is I'm going. We said this in a different setting. So I'll bring it up again. This idea of signifying, right, what is political about Black Panther may not necessarily be in the content of Black Panther, because Black Panther has to be a certain something in order for it to get made, Period. What is political about Black Panther is going to Disneyland and seeing Nakia, a black bald warrior with a spear in her hand, kneeling down to hug a little white child from Florida and taking a picture. That is political. That is an image you would have never, ever have seen in a million years.

[Toure]

Elevation of black people as leaders, as brilliant as fighters. That is happening.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah. So the content of what's happening in the movie. Nobody is gonna study this movie to, like, work out world politics. Like, that's not. We're not looking at it that way. Just like when we look at Cabin in the sky or Gone with the Wind, Right? The lesson in that movie is not Black women should all be mates. The lesson in that movie is, oh, my God, Hattie McDaniel is a genius. You know what I'm saying? So there's some things you gotta roll with what you can do for now, but that doesn't make it less political. I think anything black is automatically political. But the way he sort of maneuvered those archetypes and those characters, we didn't have them in the narrative at all. In the pop culture conversation. We did not have these figures with which to, like, think about and dream about. So the specifics of the movie. Yeah, maybe. Maybe you're right about that. But again, I don't think the version you just pitched to me, I don't see that coming out anytime soon. I could be wrong.

[Toure]

Well, that's the thing, right? The only. The only. We get one figure who represents the United States government. In one, right? In two, we get two.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, Right.

[Toure]

And he is benevolent. He's trying to help. We should trust him. That they save him is. They are benevolent. Right, but like the movie Six, we can trust him. He's on our side.

[Justin Simeon]

Right.

[Toure]

Like, really?

[Justin Simeon]

Yes, really.

[Toure]

The US Government is helping us.

[Justin Simeon]

Who paid for Black Panther?

[Toure]

Not the US Government.

[Justin Simeon]

Okay.

[Toure]

Hollywood paid.

[Justin Simeon]

Oh, who in Hollywood?

[Toure]

What are you saying?

[Justin Simeon]

I'm saying, like, who made that movie? Who really made that movie from a narrative perspective?

[Toure]

White capitalists in Hollywood.

[Justin Simeon]

Thank you. So, of course.

[Toure]

But that's not the U.S. government. Oh, you're saying. Well, of course, of course. Of course. They're not gonna go for Black Panther will Attack America or critique. They don't even critique America.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, no, of course not. Of course not. But even then, because it's just like boots. We have to participate inside of this capitalist system. So there are plenty of things that, if we had it our way, that's not necessarily the story we would tell. That's not necessarily the genre. We would be on and on and on in a million different ways. But given things the way they are, I don't know. I find it incredibly political for him to put those images of black people in power. Cause nobody is taking away those other things. Although I do hear what you're saying. I do hear what you're saying.

[Toure]

The deep Africaness and African American. I mean, like, I love that immensely. The moment when he's first returning to Wakanda in the first film, and he's in this futuristic spaceship, and they see the horseback goat herders and they wave to each other, and it's like Sankofa and the past. I'm like, oh, my God, I love this. And I'm getting chills in the theater and thinking about it. And 100% political, for sure.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Toure]

And like, just Black Beauty is political. Like, love it.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes. Your critique is with the genre known as the Marvel movies, where things that you come to the movie for happen and then they stop happening so that we can set up other movies and set up other things. And we've all just kind of accepted that that's how those. It's kind of like a musical, you know, people used to. Not anymore. Lord have mercy. They're so controversial now. But back in the day, you went to a musical. Cause you wanted to see so and so sing and dance. The story was like, okay, you were there, you know, to see Gwen Verdon and them legs in Damn Yankees you could care less about. And I think a little bit of that. Is this okay? Okay. I could be wrong. I don't know. Maybe that's my hot take.

[Toure]

But is Denzel the greatest black actor ever?

[Justin Simeon]

Wow. I think Denzel's. I don't go for greatest anything, but Denzel is one of the greatest actors, period. Hands down.

[Toure]

For sure. I mean, you could make an argument the greatest actor, period. But I want to just talk about blackness.

[Justin Simeon]

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Because. And it's not just like. And we make this point in Hollywood. Black, too. It's not just because he's a fantastic actor, which he is. It's because of the decisions that he made, the roles that he played, the roles he didn't play, the ways in which he sort of subverted our expectations of him as a star. I include in that sort of ranking of him as one of the greatest ever.

[Toure]

Who else do you put up on the tip top of your acting pantheon?

[Justin Simeon]

Viola is up there.

[Toure]

Viola d'Ors, for sure.

[Justin Simeon]

Hmm. I don't know. Oh, you know. Who's gonna be up there?

[Toure]

That.

[Justin Simeon]

I am partly saying it because no one thinks this, but Diana Ross, really? Have you seen Lady Sings the Blues?

[Toure]

For sure.

[Justin Simeon]

This woman with no training as an actor. I'm sorry, performance after performance, she's killing it. You can say what you want to say about the scripts she had. You can say, which. Like, one of the. One of the things that I look back and think about a lot is after the Wiz, Diana Ross never was in a movie again. And we just didn't have, like, a black female lead like that for a while. But, like, that was a kind of black female lead that literally she invented. Like, it didn't exist before, and it kind of didn't exist for a long time after. She is completely alive in those movies in a way that is un. How does Diana Ross convince you that she's Billie Holiday?

[Toure]

I mean, when she's slumped down beside the toilet, I'm like, yo, she is actually having a heroin overdose. And it's not acting. She's real.

[Justin Simeon]

It is like. And there's only three movies to talk about this, and two of them were not necessarily artistically acclaimed, but for me, I think about this often. She really is one of the underrated actresses that we've got. Honestly. Yeah. I don't know. I'll keep thinking, though.

[Toure]

You mentioned the Wiz. It has a special place in your heart.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes, it does.

[Toure]

It is the first film you talk about in Hollywood.

[Justin Simeon]

Black.

[Toure]

This is what propelled you.

[Justin Simeon]

I know this is where you first.

[Toure]

Was like, oh, I can do that. Like, I want to be part of that.

[Justin Simeon]

Absolutely. Yeah. The Wiz was like. I mean, it was before I knew filmmaking was a career, before I knew there was something I could do. It was just a world I wanted to escape in, too, as much as possible as a kid. And that world was filled to the brim with black people and fashion and pop music and disco and in its own way, a version of ball culture. I mean, it just has everything. And, you know, it excited parts of me that I didn't even have words for, you know, when I was a kid.

[Toure]

When you can't talk about black cinema history without blaxploitation. Yeah, right. This is a central part of our history. These are a lot of extraordinary films. And it's interesting. Sidney Poitier comes before Extraordinarily dignified, right? Very NAACP.

[Justin Simeon]

He slaps that man into the heat of the night and it's all over. We love this.

[Toure]

But he is, in a way, saying, if we. It's respectability, politics, right? If we act this way and speak this way, then they will respect us on the screen, the other characters, and at the box office. And Blaxploitation's like, fuck that.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes, we're both right.

[Toure]

We're gonna say both, right? Yeah. But we're gonna speak the way we want to, directly to our people. I'm going to get laid. What are you gonna go do?

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah. You know what makes that possible, though, is the collapse of the studio system. That's what makes black exploitation possible. The studio system. Cause here's what happened. Black people were making films after Birth of a Nation, thanks to Oscar Michaud. We were making our own films right up until World War II. After World War II, Hollywood said, Y'all can't be making all this money for yourselves. So they basically dismantled the black independent market and absorbed some of those actors and created black stars like Sidney Poitier, Lena Horne. But they didn't bring over the black writers or the black directors or the black producers. Producers. So what happens at the end of the 60s is, yes, we have Sidney Poitier, but we don't really have the ability to tell stories anymore. We don't have the ability to put our own ideas out there into the narrative. So when the studio system collapses, you have Melvin Peoples going like, okay, bet y'all ain't got no money. Great. Let me take these coins. Let me do this. Non Union. I don't care if you rate it. I don't care what you do. I'm gonna make Sweetback's Badass Song for a nickel. And when that became a Million dollar grocer, that's when all of a sudden black people were in again. And black independent filmmakers and producers were in vogue again. But it took, like, that old system to go to way for us to even, like, break through.

[Toure]

What is the best of the blaxploitation films for you?

[Justin Simeon]

I have a sweet spot for Trouble, man. Actually.

[Toure]

Interesting.

[Justin Simeon]

That's one of my favorites. And Ganja and Hess, I watch over. I love Ganja and Hess. I love Bill Gunn in that movie. I love everything about that movie. It's. It does not have a straightforward narrative story. It is black horror, and it's under the label of Blaxploitation. But what it is, it's like, it's just a. I don't know what it is, actually. It's like this indie art film horror thing. I love the way black sexuality is portrayed in it. I think those are the two that I literally go to, like, when I just want to watch something from that era.

[Toure]

The Mac is the one for me, really. Oh, my God, I love the Mac.

[Justin Simeon]

I like the Mac. I like the Mac, too.

[Toure]

Not a traditional story. Yeah, no, it's not a hero's journey, you know, just. And so much sort of like, philosophy dispensed, you know, like, just.

[Justin Simeon]

It's the outfits in that one that make me not lean in quite as much to its serious commentary. But what am I talking about? I mean, you know, Trouble Man's got some outfits, too, and Gadget Hess is just bonkers. So I don't know. I love that, though. I love the mag.

[Toure]

So when we go from Blaxploitation, you think about. I think about Tarantino, who wants to.

[Justin Simeon]

Be a child, a son, really gonna keep bringing up Quentin Tarantino.

[Toure]

Lord, how Well, I like this fight. I like this fight with you because I love Tarantino. I love Django. I love Jackie Brown.

[Justin Simeon]

Okay.

[Toure]

I love Kill Bill. I love you.

[Justin Simeon]

And that's all that matters, you know? That's all that matters. You know, I was telling you this earlier. I'm mad because I can never throw the baby out with a bathwater. It's just not how I am. So I'm mad because Quentin Tarantino is one of the greatest filmmakers we've had, and I can't deny it. And when I see a Quentin Tarantula film, like, yeah, he's. He's great. He's great. He's great. I do not. I bristle at the way he handles black culture and black narratives. I bristle at it in almost every direction. But I can hear and accept that he is a great filmmaker. And some of those movies happen to have black people in them.

[Toure]

I mean, Django, for me, it is what a slavery picture should be.

[Justin Simeon]

What's a movie that you hate? Cause I wanna talk passionately about how great it is.

[Toure]

I'm just gonna name a movie. Well, I hate that. I hated the Hateful Eight.

[Justin Simeon]

Well, let me tell you what's great about it.

[Toure]

No, in the first moment of Django, he is freed and he moves through the film. Being the free black.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

And there's the constant sight gag of white people going, what? He's free. And the freedom is not just on paper. You see it in the way he carries himself. The things he wears the things that he does. So much so that when he is captured, the way he behaves, they're like, well, he must be different than them. Cause they. The other ones literally don't leave the cage. Even when the door's open.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

And they're like, well, he must be. Cause look at him.

[Justin Simeon]

But can I tell you why I hate that?

[Toure]

Come on, Ture.

[Justin Simeon]

I'm sorry.

[Toure]

Come on.

[Justin Simeon]

It affirms the white belief that the reason, the only reason why we can't succeed is our attitude.

[Toure]

I don't think that's fair.

[Justin Simeon]

And I didn't say that that's what the movie's saying. I'm just saying that's why I'm not as excited about that aspect of the film. Because I'm like, yeah, of course a white person would write that. That a black man just decides he's free and that's all it ever took. That's a very white.

[Toure]

Well, he is liberated by a white man. And then he gets to. Right, of course. And then he gets to show you who he really is.

[Justin Simeon]

None of this works for me. His accent isn't even right. I don't. No, I don't. I can't. I don't. I'm sorry. I love Jamie. I love you so much. I love Kerry Washington so much. You know what, Quinn? I even love you as a person. Probably I don't know you, but like, I can't. That movie. I can't. I can't do it. I'm sorry. Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries? Right as they're being scooped into the carton and time just stands still. I'm William Goudge, a Vuri collaborator and professional ultra runner from the uk. I love to tackle endurance runs around the world, including a 55 day, 3,064 mile run across the US. So I know a thing or two about performance wear. When it comes to relaxing, I look for something ultra versatile and comfy. The Ponto Performance Jogger from Vuri is perfect for all of those things. It's the comfiest jogger I've ever worn. And the Dream Knit fabric is why I'll always reach for them over other joggers. Check them out in the Dream Knit collection by going to Vuori.com William that's V-U-O-R-I.com William. Where new customers can receive 20% off their first order, plus enjoy free shipping in the US on orders over $75 and free returns. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full Terms and conditions.

[Toure]

I mean, the love cinema.

[Justin Simeon]

Please don't.

[Toure]

The destruction. No one's gonna fire. The destruction of the illest Uncle Tom we've ever had on screen. And the whole plantation to save his woman.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah.

[Toure]

Yes.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah.

[Toure]

No, I poke the bear. Because this is an ongoing conversation.

[Justin Simeon]

And by the way.

[Toure]

And I know I'm in the minority, by the way.

[Justin Simeon]

I love it. Because this is what talking about movies should be.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Justin Simeon]

Like, you should be able to talk about movies exactly like this and have it not be a personal attack. Cause you'll notice I never say Django is a bad movie, and I never say it shouldn't have been made. It's not for me. I had a subjectively negative experience watching this film with a mostly all white audience. I only saw in it the things that, like, aggravate me. And that's a personal thing that maybe I need to get over. But so far in my therapy sessions, other things have been the priority. So this is where I'm at. You know, I'm happy for everybody black involved.

[Toure]

See the.

[Justin Simeon]

See Quinn will survive me not liking that movie.

[Toure]

See that thing. I try not to care about what the white people in the theater are thinking.

[Justin Simeon]

Right.

[Toure]

Because I'm having my own experience. Fuck that. And I don't care that they laughed or they didn't laugh. And I know some of us don't look at it that way, but I'm like, I saw what he was doing.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah.

[Toure]

Yeah, I liked it. I got it. I got the attack on white supremacy, the attack on the Klan, the attack of. That. Jamie Foxx's character, Django, is on the whole. My God. He gave us a scene where a free, formerly enslaved person whips a slave master. I'm like, yes, please.

[Justin Simeon]

I'm really happy for you. I am. I'm happy you had that moment of joy and triumph, because that's what it's about. It's about the audience.

[Toure]

Cause Steve McQueen, who I revere.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

One of the great black filmmakers, one of the great filmmakers of our time, gave us a beautiful slavery movie that doesn't have rebellion in it.

[Justin Simeon]

Also the only slavery movie written by an actual enslaved black person. You know, so it's a true account. I don't need to see. Tell you the slave again. Right. But there is something to the fact that Steve McQueen was the one who made the definitive black movie, that now we don't need any more slave movies after this movie it took him to make one. You know, for us to be like, oh, maybe this isn't the Fun romantic genre, you know, fantasy of liberation that we wanted it to be. This is a stone cold sober view on something that was a horribly. It's an effective slavery movie, let's put it that way.

[Toure]

What do we do about Tyler Perry?

[Justin Simeon]

What do you mean?

[Toure]

Cause you touch on Tyler Perry, but the whole Tyler Perry thing is much more aesthetically and emotionally complex.

[Justin Simeon]

It is complex. Yeah.

[Toure]

Right. I mean, I think there's an intergenerational argument, Right. How many Thanksgivings and Christmases where the aunties are like, let's watch the new Tyler Perry and the Gen Xers or millennials are like, no, can we watch Spike Lee? Tyler Perry. So we've had that discussion, and I think there's a North, south, maybe south versus west thing also happening there.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Toure]

You know, love him commercially. Love him as a business person, as a producer.

[Justin Simeon]

As a producer, I would say, which is a cinema art for sure. And he has been able to do as a black producer something that no one else has done since Oscar Michaud.

[Toure]

Look, he may be the greatest black producer of cinema ever.

[Justin Simeon]

And that is something in a world where.

[Toure]

Give him that crown.

[Justin Simeon]

It's an important crown.

[Toure]

But he's also a writer, director and actor.

[Justin Simeon]

Yes.

[Toure]

Now what are we doing?

[Justin Simeon]

I love some of his performances. Okay.

[Toure]

Why did you put that tone on performances? Because I'm like, you're trying to get.

[Justin Simeon]

You're trying to get. Look, let me tell you something.

[Toure]

No, I'm not trying to get anything. I'm trying to get a real conversation.

[Justin Simeon]

I want Tyler Perry to like me because my mom is devastated at the fact that we are not best friends and do not work together. So that's one thing I think. Like, I know where you're going with this, but I think that there's a fallacy inherent in some of the criticism against him. Because the fallacy is that the reason why we have certain narratives about black people in popular culture and not others is because this man makes these narratives, and we would like these narratives over here. That's like the basic argument that I can think of or that I hear often. And my thing is this. If black people were not showing up for his narratives, he would not be making them. Black people love Tyler Perry, a certain.

[Toure]

Segment of the community, but don't they get to live 100%?

[Justin Simeon]

Okay, so whose fault is it that the other black people are being underserved?

[Toure]

To me, he.

[Justin Simeon]

It's not Tyler's fault.

[Toure]

The whole thing of Children of a Lesser God, okay? That because we have not been served that much great art. Right. Cinema, as you talk about modern and historical, as you talk about we're still in the infancy of black cinema. There is an attraction to what he does because he's putting black characters on screen and portraying black stories and black tropes and black culture. Are these quality films?

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, I think, like, if you. Look, Justin, listen to me.

[Toure]

Are these quality films? We talked about Tarantino, we talked about Denzel, we talked about Jordan, and we.

[Justin Simeon]

Never brought up quality.

[Toure]

Right?

[Justin Simeon]

We never brought up quality.

[Toure]

But there was no question that Black Panther is a quality film. I'm arguing a political right. As much as you don't like some of what Tarantino's doing, this is some of the great films. Jordan is making some of the great films.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah.

[Toure]

This is not. Is this great filmmaking?

[Justin Simeon]

Let me tell you something. I'm going to answer your question in a different way because I know what you're getting at here.

[Toure]

Of course you do.

[Justin Simeon]

If you go back and we just talked about how much we revered blaxploitation, right? Go back and watch every blaxploitation film ever made by a black person and answer me that question about those films. Then go back to the first era of race films, okay? From the time Oscar Michaud started making movies in the late tens, all the way to World War II. And then you answer me that question about every film that every black person made during that time.

[Toure]

So my first Shaft, that's not the.

[Justin Simeon]

Only movie that was made.

[Toure]

No, of course. But I'm just the first film that pops into my head to like, well, how do I retort this discussion? I don't think that there's def. The blaxploitation includes great films and shitty films.

[Justin Simeon]

Well, yeah, but the thing that defines blaxploitation is they're made fast, they're made cheap, and they're made direct to an audience. So Tyler is doing that. We just don't right now in our conversation about film. We don't have a place of value for that kind of film, you and I. You don't. I didn't include myself in that.

[Toure]

You said we.

[Justin Simeon]

We as black people. But I really. I'm being honest. I can't in good faith put Tyler Perry in another category like that. I can't. It just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel right. From my lived experience in the industry, I feel like, you know, it's. The problem always is the people who decide who gets to make the movies, who gets to finance them. It's them. They're the people who we have the fight with. I'm sorry. Like, it's not like Tyler stole the money. These audience showed up and gave it to him. So why would he stop giving them what they want?

[Toure]

No, no, he should do whatever he wants to do. And he's having success and dig it.

[Justin Simeon]

I'm glad we agree on that.

[Toure]

I wish.

[Justin Simeon]

Next question.

[Toure]

As a highly experienced filmmaker with an audience that would show up for pretty much anything, just like for Jordan.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah.

[Toure]

I wish he would slow down. I wish he would try to raise the quality of the films that he's making and not do you know, I wrote this movie in three days.

[Justin Simeon]

Well, let me tell you, I'm very open to feedback. So if you have feedback for my work, I can address it, but I can't address your feedback for Tyler Perry's work. I'm not gonna do that. Not at 41 years old, no. My career began with a negative statement against Tyler Perry. Famously, like the Dear White People trailer begins with all these black kids at a movie theater being like, fuck Tyler Perry. So I get it. I've been on that side of things. Having now been in the seat, the hot seat of black film director in Hollywood. I can't do it. I can't jump on that bandwagon again.

[Toure]

I said something to you about that.

[Justin Simeon]

We had a very spirited conversation. We did. And I thought it went better than apparently it actually did. So I'm not saying this because Tyler wants. I don't think Tyler is a biggest fan of me, to be honest with you, but I still believe this. I still believe these things. I think my, my, my perspective on it is a little outside of myself and my present day tastes and all that kind of stuff. I think it is important to, as black people, especially to hold the good and the bad at the same time. I really do. I don't think it would have been possible for Tyler, as a black film producer, to one become a billionaire, have his own means of production and do all the other things you expect from a black artist at the same time. I just don't. It's not possible. It's not made for that.

[Toure]

I mean, to me, I'm like, no, go.

[Justin Simeon]

Tell me more about how you love Django Unchained. Jesus Christ.

[Toure]

I want to tell you about how much I love Killer of Sheep, which you also love. Yeah, this is one of the great films.

[Justin Simeon]

That's one of the great films of black history. Yes, absolutely. That's a good. We're segueing there yeah. Killer of Sheep, Charles Burnett.

[Toure]

I mean, he's sort of like early 70s, right? Or 60s.

[Justin Simeon]

Was it late 70s? I think it was late 70s, okay. Yeah, late 70s.

[Toure]

Made on the weekends.

[Justin Simeon]

Made on the weekends. And it's sort of like. It is a black artist going completely against the grain or the expectation. He's not taking black culture and trying to elevate it to pop culture, which I actually do a lot. He's taking the opposite route. He's saying, like, no, I want to strip this down. I want to show it exactly how I experience it. And I want to invite you to. Even though this maybe doesn't feel like a movie the way you expect a black movie to be, I'm going to invite you to just slow down and watch what I'm trying to show you over here. And that takes incredible courage and guts. And that is a movie that is made with artistic finesse.

[Toure]

I love Dear White People.

[Justin Simeon]

Thank you.

[Toure]

It still holds up. It's still fun. There's a rhythm to it. Are you coaching them or telling them? We wanna be snappy. We wanna be quick, like, sometimes.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, I mean, like, you know, I think we were talking about this in a different conversation, but every actor needs something different. Yeah, but it was funny with Tessa. Cause Tessa was like, I know when you wrote this line, you said it some way in your head. And I don't. I'm not gonna necessarily say it the way you're about to say it, but how would you say it?

[Toure]

She would ask you that.

[Justin Simeon]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And we would, like, work. Cause it is rhythmic. It's not just performance, Especially in comedy and especially in, like, you know, something where, like, people are hyper articulate in Dear White People and they're just always talking. So, yeah, it has, like, a musicality to it, almost like jazz or something. And. Yeah, we would work on that.

[Toure]

Did it take courage to internal courage to say, okay, here's my central character. She's pro black as hell.

[Justin Simeon]

Oh, man.

[Toure]

But she gonna have a white boyfriend.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah. Take courage. It'd take a lot of courage to.

[Toure]

Take internal voice that was like, don't.

[Justin Simeon]

Do that in every direction. I mean, I think, like. I think being a director is like, when do you. Like, when is it. Like, when is it like the ancestors warning you and they're right? Yeah. And when is it. You're just nervous and you're scared. You know, you're constantly trying. I'm constantly trying to find that line. And Dear White People was one of those ones I didn't know. And People were mad. People are mad to this day about all kind of aspects of that movie, and that is one of them. But I'm really proud I did it. I'm really, really glad I stuck to that one. Because I think the point of that movie is that, like, our internal lives as black people are just so much more complicated than a narrative that we might have to play in public and might be a really important narrative. It might be a political narrative. It may authentically be a real narrative to us. But even then, we are so much more complicated than that. We are people, and we're messy and we like, you know, convergent things. And I'm glad that people over the years, like, that is the takeaway from that film.

[Toure]

I bet you are proud of the complexity that you created with Lionel, with a gay character in that film, which we don't usually get.

[Justin Simeon]

And it created an archetype that I see all over the place now. And I don't think people saw Dear White people, like, oh, we need that. It's not like that. But it just was not. It just wasn't acceptable to have a gay character. Acceptable. It was hard for audiences to accept. It was hard to get anyone to make a movie where there was a black gay character, where them being gay wasn't, you know, a punchline or something. And Lionel is so. He's like me. He can kind of pass in straight situations. And that was also a character we hadn't seen before. And he was also a nerd. And his thing to overcome is he had to move, he had to lean towards a community, Black people that in his particular history, have always shunned him. But that's where he needed to be in this film, to rise to the level of hero. Right? And that, to me, because that was my experience, that was a healing experience of, like, wow, black people have always made fun of me and felt. And I've always felt put apart because of this part of me, because I'm gay, because I'm interested in things that are maybe off black culture, you know, and getting over that fear and leaning into the embrace of new kinds of black community. That was like an important part of my life. And so putting that narrative out there, I don't know, it felt like something that. Like, no matter what you say about that film or anything I make, you can't take that away from me. Like, that's a narrative I was able to put into the popular culture.

[Toure]

So, wait, you have felt for much of your life separated from the black community because of the queerness yeah, of course.

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah, of course. I feel that way now, but I'm not afraid of black people. I'm not afraid of being in black spaces. But there was a time when I just didn't feel welcome, and I had to kind of, like, get over it.

[Toure]

How did you get over that?

[Justin Simeon]

I just did it. I just leaned in, you know? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how to. Part of it, too, is you. You make a black movie that does okay. You know, you get accepted a little bit to black spaces. But certainly, like, growing up and stuff. Yeah. Like, there was, you know. Yeah. I got. I got mocked and I got bullied and I. And I sort of got made fun of in a way that I knew was different than the other boys. And it was before. I think a lot of gay men have this experience. It's like people can sense something about you that they don't like that you don't even have a word for yet. You don't know about. You don't know it yet about yourself. And of course, I have felt that.

[Toure]

Yeah, they are sensing the gayness, the queerness before you.

[Justin Simeon]

Gayness. Yeah. Because you're not like other boys. You're not interested in the same things. And sports don't seem to get you as excited as it. You know, it's just they know something is off about you, and you might even suspect that they have a word for it that they use in private, but no one ever tells you what it is, you know, so. And again, that's like a very common gay male experience. But you add black to it, and it has other implications. Cause if you don't have. If I don't have black people, what do I have?

[Toure]

Right.

[Justin Simeon]

You know, where can I feel at home?

[Toure]

I mean, black people do want you to say, okay, you have multiple identities, but you're black first. Right?

[Justin Simeon]

Yeah.

[Toure]

Which in some degree, some days, in some situations, you are black first and other times you are queer first or equally black and queer. Right. Why do I have to choose? Can I be down without choosing?

[Justin Simeon]

Right. Right. Yeah, I wish. You know, and I think. I think internally I am. There's a space where it's just me, you know, in here somewhere and that I can have access to. But in. Out there in society. Yeah, it can. Sometimes it actually very often feels like you're making a choice just by the fact that we're talking about the black experience primarily and not the queer experience is evidence of that.

[Toure]

Well, yes, but this show is about.

[Justin Simeon]

Well, right, but that's I'm able to make this show first. You know what I mean? Like, I think that that's. That's partly a societal thing too. But I also. I think I am black first. If I'm being honest. I knew I was black first. They're both, like, inextricable. Like, I couldn't. I don't know how to separate them. I also kind of feel like black and queer were in the same category at a certain point in time in America's history, too. And also, black is something I can't hide, you know, if you don't know already, sometimes I can, you know, shockingly, I can, you know, surprise you by telling you that I'm gay. But most people know I'm black right away. Yeah.

[Toure]

Just for the record, can you talk about some of the core influences of Dear White People?

[Justin Simeon]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. So obviously, like, Spike is an influence, but so is Robert Altman, so is Fritz Lang. A lot of those sort of composed shots where you see people in groups comes from my love of Fritz Lang, particularly Metropolis and a movie called M. He made these movies about groupthink and groups coming together and despite, like, their ideals and their intentions, like becoming something else once they become a group. And I felt like so much of Dear White people, it's like, what group are you part of? Are you part of this group of black people? Are you part of that group? Are you more of a white kid? You know, and so, like, I invoke him a lot in that movie. I think Ernst Lubitsch is also a huge inspiration. Just the way he put narratives together that feel kind of like rom coms and fun and comedies on the surface, but layers and layers below, he's actually doing some really subversive, you know, social commentary. That was a big influence, for sure.

[Toure]

Anything else?

[Justin Simeon]

God, I mean, tons. But those are the ones that come to mind. Just trying to get you to say the words. What do you want me to say? Who you want me to say? Tyler Perry. Ture.

[Toure]

Oh.

[Justin Simeon]

Oh, my God. Wow. Talk about Ture.

[Toure]

You brought it up. I didn't ask about it.

[Justin Simeon]

You told me.

[Toure]

I had no idea.

[Justin Simeon]

Okay. Yeah. No. Okay. Movie wise, those are the influences. But Tre, I don't know if you know this. I never told you this before. Who's afraid of Post Black America? That book changed my life because I thought these things that I was thinking about were insane. Like, I didn't know I was being gaslit. You know, like whenever I brought up racism and whenever I wanted to talk about the Fact that, yes, we have a black president, but in some ways, that's made things worse. Among my liberal friends, that seemed crazy to people. That seemed crazy to me. I didn't think that that was enough to even make a movie around until I read your book, because I was like, wow, he's validating what I'm feeling. But you were also able to articulate it. Like, I didn't have words for some of those feelings. You know, I couldn't make an argument, a case for what I was feeling. I felt like, yeah, I felt like I was in this limbo some kind of way. Like, I didn't feel fully comfortable with these thoughts and opinions around black people or white people. And you opened this window for me that was like, no, we're also out here thinking these things too. And so the courage to make Dear white People, yeah, there's a story there. And yes, there's politics on the mind of those characters, but it was also just about creating a space for a kind of conversation and a kind of way of thinking that I knew I needed as a black person, and I needed that to be validated. And your book was like a personal experience of feeling what I wanted my audience to feel when they saw my movie. So there's no way I could have made that movie without reading your book.

[Toure]

It is unbelievable to me that one of the great films of this era that I loved somehow came out of that long before we had met or anything.

[Justin Simeon]

Your willingness to put those words to paper and to put them on into society changed my life.

[Toure]

I'm gonna give you a hug. Thank you for saying that.

[Justin Simeon]

Never bring up Django again and we'll be even. Thank you.

[Toure]

Thanks so much to Justin for a great interview and thanks to you for watching. Torre's show gives you fuel to power your dreams. Because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. Maybe this show can help. You can find me on Instagram Torre show on Twitter or on TikTok orayshow. Torre Show's written by me, Torre, and produced by Ashley Hobbs. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our booker is Ray Holiday, and we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back with more great episodes and more great people next week because the man can't shut us down.