Nikki Giovanni–How To Make It In Poetry

Summary

Podcast Summary: Toure Show - Episode Featuring Nikki Giovanni: "How To Make It In Poetry"

Introduction

In the December 11, 2024 episode of the Toure Show, host Torre engages in a profound conversation with renowned poet Nikki Giovanni. The discussion delves into Nikki's illustrious career, her approach to poetry, personal hardships, and her philosophies on success and life. This episode offers listeners invaluable insights from one of America's greatest poets, making it a must-listen for aspiring writers and poetry enthusiasts.

Nikki Giovanni's Legacy and Career

Nikki Giovanni, at 74 years young, is celebrated as a living legend in American poetry. A prominent figure from the Black Arts Movement of the 1960s, she has authored over 20 books, including seminal works like Ego Trippin and Nikki Rosa. Torre highlights her ability to weave beauty and sensitivity into her work, making the English language sing.

• "With a pen in her hand, Nikki Giovanni is as great as the goddess of Ego Trippin. [02:25]

Her influence extends beyond her writings; as a professor at Virginia Tech since 1987, she has inspired countless students with her joy, wit, and belief that life transcends monetary gains.

Writing Process and Evaluation of Poems

Giovanni shares her organic approach to writing poetry, emphasizing spontaneity over rigid structure. She believes poems should emanate from genuine emotion and experiences rather than stringent outlines.

• "You write a poem based on what you're thinking. ... I have enough sense to know which is which." [43:40]

When evaluating her work, Nikki relies on honesty and her expertise in English, ensuring that each poem serves its intended purpose, whether to evoke emotion or convey a message.

• "I'm an English. I teach English. I know a good poem." [81:18]

Personal Struggles and Learning to Cry

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around Nikki's personal battles, including the loss of close family members and her struggle with lung cancer. These experiences catalyzed her quest to learn how to cry, a deeply personal endeavor she discusses candidly.

• "I finally learned to cry because it's something I've been holding inside." [62:48]

Nikki emphasizes the importance of emotional expression, particularly within the Black community, where stoicism often prevails.

• "I think there is a black stoicism, right, where we expect bad things to happen and we kind of have a stiff upper lip..." [68:10]

Teaching at Virginia Tech

Nikki's tenure at Virginia Tech is marked by her dedication to blending the arts with other disciplines. She expresses a desire to integrate English studies with the university's football program, likening the sport to a ballet and seeking to instill a sense of artistry and maturity in athletes.

• "Football, if you've seen it, is a ballet. And the question is, what's the music." [55:52]

Her approach to teaching is firm yet compassionate, exemplified when she confronted a student she sensed malintent, prioritizing the safety and integrity of her classroom environment.

• "Mr. Cho, you don't know me at all. And I went to see my department head and said that to her..." [60:26]

Views on Success, Failure, and Money

Nikki articulates a philosophy that prioritizes personal fulfillment and meaningful connections over financial success. She criticizes the obsession with money, highlighting its disconnect from true life values.

• "If life is only about money, then what we ought to do is set up a press someplace and run it off. That's not what life is about." [30:22]

Her definition of success revolves around doing a "good job" and contributing positively to the lives of others, rather than chasing fame or wealth.

• "I just want to do a good job and I want to feel like I'm doing my best." [79:59]

Spiritual Sensitivity and Confrontation with a Student

Nikki discusses her heightened spiritual sensitivity, which she believes enables her to perceive underlying emotions and intentions. This sensitivity was pivotal when she sensed the malevolence in a student who later became involved in a tragic event at Virginia Tech.

• "You perceived the evil." [61:57]

She recounts confronting the student with unwavering resolve, choosing to protect her academic environment over maintaining a connection, showcasing her commitment to integrity and safety.

• "I know that I will not have him in my class. I'm not going to be around him." [61:59]

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Nikki reflecting on her continuous journey as a poet and educator. Despite personal losses and health challenges, she remains steadfast in her commitment to poetry and teaching. Her resilience, coupled with her dedication to emotional authenticity, serves as an inspiration to listeners.

• "I'm doing art, but I'm never going to be hungry. And I don't understand the greed." [30:22]

Nikki Giovanni's insights offer a layered understanding of what it means to "make it" in poetry, emphasizing that true success lies in personal growth, emotional honesty, and the impactful sharing of one's voice.

Notable Quotes

• "Ego Trippin, one of the great poems of the century." — Torre [02:25]
• "Black love is black wealth." — Torre [Various timestamps]
• "I just want to do a good job and I want to feel like I'm doing my best." — Torre [79:59]
• "If life is only about money, then what we ought to do is set up a press someplace and run it off." — Torre [30:22]
• "I have to learn to cry so that you can let it out, so that you're not holding it in." — Torre [67:14]
• "I'm doing art, but I'm never going to be hungry. And I don't understand the greed." — Torre [30:22]

Final Thoughts

This episode of the Toure Show encapsulates Nikki Giovanni's multifaceted life as a poet, educator, and resilient individual. Her candid conversations provide a roadmap for aspiring poets and offer a deep dive into the soul of a literary giant. Listeners walk away with not only an appreciation for Nikki's work but also with personal philosophies that transcend the realm of poetry.

Transcript

[Torre]

The holidays are back at Starbucks and there's so much to share with classics like caramel brulee latte, peppermint mocha and chestnut praline latte. We're celebrating everyone's flavor of festivity. Order yours in the app.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Steakmas season is back at Outback Steakhouse, so be good for goodness steak savour a flavourful bloomin French onion sirloin if you're nice. Or sink your teeth into a sizzling 18 ounce bone in ribeye with signature spices.

[Torre]

As long as you don't owe millions.

[Nikki Giovanni]

In taxes, causing you to flee the country and start a new life as a struggling Swedish dj. Yeah, it's me, Laws. Enjoy Steakma season at Outback Steakhouse for a limited time.

[Torre]

Outback Steakhouse.

[Nikki Giovanni]

No rules. Just right.

[Torre]

The tour ratio okay, Doe? The tour ratio okay, Doe?

[Nikki Giovanni]

That might be the best question I've ever been on.

[Torre]

You's a phenomenal person. I mean, you. Legendary.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I am a fan of you, my brother. The passing of my old friend Nikki Giovanni has been a sad mood. But she had an extraordinary life and the world is better for her having been here. We had an epic conversation years ago about her life, about poetry, about wanting to go into outer space. And it's my honor to present this once again. It's Nikki Giovanni on torre show. Nikki Giovanni is dying to go into outer space.

[Torre]

We need to get creative writers in space. And we're laughing because I said, well, I'll go. You know, I can do that. And he said, nikki, he's very nice, by the way. I love him so much. She said, well, you know, Nikki, we can send you into space, but we can't bring you back. I said, okay, why not? And I had. Had lung cancer. And so I have. I'm missing a. An organ. He said, because your organs will. And your organs will move around and it will kill you. I said, let me try this another way. Slower or loud. I will die one day. So I just assumed, you know, wait five years, 10 years, send me up into space. I can tell you what I see and who I've met and what I'm running into. And when I die, just open it up. And then the kids can look up and there I'll be, going around and around and around. Everybody say, oh, there goes Mickey's. It works for me.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Nikki is a living legend. She's 74 years young, one of America's greatest poets, a daughter of the black arts movement of the 1960s and the author of over 20 books, including some unforgettable poems like Ego Trippin and Nikki Rosa.

[Torre]

And I really hope no white person ever has cause to write about me because they never understand black love is black wealth. And they'll probably talk about my hard childhood and never understand that. All the while, I was quite happy.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I'm proud to say my friend Nikki Giovanni is my guest today on Torre Show, a show about success. I want to know how you became successful and what your superpowers are and how you deal with failure. I'm going to talk to singers, rappers, business studs, poker stars, athletes, comedians, all sorts of people to see what they've learned that can help us rise. Nikki Giovanni is a life success. She's one of America's greatest poets ever. A writer of great feeling and sensitivity who knows how to use the English language to make beautiful music. I mean, listen to this. The end of her masterwork, Ego Trippin, one of the great poems of the century. A poem for those who don't already know it and love it. That is set in the perspective of a mythical black woman who is a goddess creating the world. I sew diamonds in my backyard. My bowels deliver uranium. The filings from my fingernails are semi precious jewels. On a trip north, I caught a cold and blew my nose, giving oil to the Arab world. I am so hip, even my errors are correct. I sailed west to reach east and had to round off the earth as I went. The hair from my head thinned and gold was laid across three continents. I am so perfect, so divine, so ethereal, so surreal. I cannot be comprehended except by my permission. I mean, I can fly like a bird in the sky. Wow. With a pen in her hand, Nikki Giovanni is as great as the goddess of Ego Trippin. And she's got a tattoo on her arm that says Thug Life in solidarity with Tupac and his late mother, Afini Shakur. What is not to love about this woman? Nikki's been a professor at Virginia Tech since 1987, and she's filled with joy and wit, and she believes life is about more than money.

[Torre]

I don't understand, you know, fools like Trump and all of those people on his cabinet, those greedy racists on his cabinet who don't do anything but try to figure out how to make more money. If life is only about money, then what we ought to do is set up a press someplace and run it off. That's not what life is about. Life is about. We were talking earlier. It's about finding somebody that you can love and trust.

[Nikki Giovanni]

And Nikki is fun to be around. She's hilarious. She also recently published a poem called Torre's Feet. Kid you not. It's in her new book, A Good Cry. It's arrived after we spent several days together at the Anguilla Literary Festival, where I was naturally walking around in flip flops like everyone does, and not trying to show them off. I'm not especially proud of my feet, but here we are.

[Torre]

Torre's feet are beautiful, perfect. He knows this and shows them off in sandals. His mother, I'm sure, took him, as I did my son, for predicures, where he learned to say thank you. My friend has issues. She needs to keep her back.

[Nikki Giovanni]

And it goes on from there. And I'm totally blown away and a little embarrassed. And it's such an honor to be written about by Nikki Giovanni. She's such a sweetheart. For the following conversation, Nikki and I met in the afternoon in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, at the home of mutual friends who are making a documentary about her. Nikki and I spend time talking about how she rose up, how you write a poem, what makes a great poem, how you make it as a writer, why it is her current big project is learning how to cry and how she was shaped by watching domestic violence in her childhood home. But we start, as many of us do nowadays, with thoughts on Trump.

[Torre]

We can't get around it. Torre One of the things, you know, we have that fool Trump who stole an election, but one of the ways that he stole the election was white supremacy because he could go in and teach people hate. You have an obligation to hate. And they use the hatred to fill the voids in their life. The fact that they're drug addicts, the fact that they're screwing their five year old daughters, the fact that they're beating their wives every night. But we're white people, we're white supremacists. So it must not be our fault that our lives are messed up. And that fool comes in and says, oh yeah, I'm going to make it all right. And he's not. But they'll find that out and I just hope I live long enough to see them suffer. I sincerely do.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I want to go a little bit deeper on that because you come from Appalachia, right, and have lived in Virginia Tech for 30 some years, right? So I mean, you understand that area far better than I do, far better than most people do. So was it a surprise that, you know, these sort of working class white people were so excited about this man and wanted to vote for him?

[Torre]

It was very sad and I'm not sure Sincerely, that they voted for him. I sincerely believe that the election was stolen. But as an Appalachian, I'm a Tennessean by birth, and I'm living in Appalachia. And that's a great history. And what I am sorry about is that we have seen those people allow this great history to be sucked out of them, that they no longer stand up for something. They fly Confederate flags, and they want to holler out the window something, you know, awful to you or something of that nature. And these were great people. When we go back to the history of this country, we go back to watching Appalachia running from Alabama all the way up to Maine, and we're watching slaves run away. If you could get a little bit further, if you could get on that Appalachian Trail, they were going to save you. And what should be, if I could ever run for governor of West Virginia, what I would have put on the license plate is what they said, we will not send our sons to die so that the Shenandoah can have slaves. Because that's exactly what they said, which is why they separated from Virginia. These were great people. And to see them now reduce themselves to these ugly, mean, sniveling people is so sad. It really is so sad.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I want to go back to what I think is one of the core turning point moments of your life. You go to Fisk, right Family college. Right family that went there. You got expelled fairly quickly. Yeah, I did, but I'm not interested in the fall. I'm interested in the getting back up. And fairly quickly, you realize I need Fisk. And you went to the dean of women and convinced her to let you back in. So how did you find the humility to realize I need to do this? And how did you present a case to her that we all know what happened in the past, but please let me back in?

[Torre]

Well, first Grandpapa, 19, class of 1905 at Fisk University, I did get kicked out. I have enough sense to recognize, oh, that was probably my fault, but the deans had changed, and that's what I was able to wait on. When Fisk recognized that they had the wrong dean, then I could recognize I had done the wrong thing also. It wasn't a surprise to me, but Ann Cheatham was our dean, and she still alive. I saw Ann, I guess, maybe two or three years ago. I didn't recognize her. And she said, because I don't recognize people, she said, I'm Ann Cheatham. I said, oh, my goodness, you probably did me the biggest favor in my life. And she Laughed. She said, why do you say that? I said, because you kicked me out. And when you kicked me out of Fisk, I had to make up my mind again. How am I going to go forward? Am I going to say, oh, this is terrible, and, you know, snivel? Or am I going to say, okay, let's think this through? So I took a year to think it through. When I went back, Dean Cowan was the dean, and I just absolutely fell in love. Dean Cowan was. I mean, I used to run errands for her shiner shoes. I mean, no, really, just everything. And she was a social worker, which is how I ended up going to social work school. She just was a whole. I don't even know how to say. It just was a light to me, and it was just really, really wonderful. So the best thing that happened to me was that Ann Cheatham, who would never have been a light once I shed her, I don't know. She wasn't going to work. But Blanche Cowan, Jackie, we called her Jackie. Jackie was going to be. This is where you need to go. So when I look at the women in my life, and I'm very fortunate with the women in my life, my grandmother, you know, something that makes me cry, and I hope I won't, but, you know, I'm in the African American Museum, and I went to see that. I was there at the legacy opening because I didn't want to go for the regular. We were there for the legacy opening. I didn't realize. I knew I had done things, you know, said, yes, you can have it, but I hadn't realized. And I turned a corner and there I was. It's a picture of me. And I literally. And I literally looked back, looking for my grandmother to say, see it still, it really touches me because I just wanted to say to her, I did my job. I did my job, and I wanted my grandmother to. To be there. So when I look at grandmother, I looked at Sister Althea, who was a nun. I wear this ring. She gave me this in the eighth grade. I wear this. So I graduated from eighth grade when I was 12, 13 years old. I've had this. This long. You know how long that's. I have had this. That long. Sister out there. And of course, Jackie was a really good friend. And, well, I love Jackie so much. And my dean at University of Pennsylvania was a woman, Louise Shoemaker. And I was never going to graduate from Penn, you know, just not going to be good. But I went on, came to Columbia and some good things. But I was In London. And her daughter called me and said, my mother's dying. Mother, actually, she was going to die before I could. And she said, you know, you should get here. And again, I loved Louise so much. And it's like, oh, I have to get there. And the only way to get there, it was going to be the old Concorde, the old sst. And I was lucky because I was broke. And so I convinced the bank to give me a credit card. It's one of those guys you're sitting there talking, well, my job is going to pay. And the guy is looking at you like, what the hell is this Negro talking about? But I got my credit card so that I could go buy a ticket, and I'd got the sst. And I've always liked space. I liked stars and things. But you take the SST, you're 70,000ft, 70. So you see the curve of the earth, and up above you, you see. Well, I'm looking at it that way. But up above you, you see darkness. And you know that that's illogical. It's illogical. So, you know there's something there. And I'm just. I'm a big fan. Well, I'm a fan of women, but I'm a big fan of black women. Because if anybody can find what there is in this darkness is black women. Because we found the evil here in this United States. We were brought from. We were sold by Africans. We were brought over middle passage, and we were brought here to the United States, and we were sold again. And no matter how we look at it, we were pretty well abused. And yet we found a way to sing. Speaking of fried chicken, we were talking about fried chicken. I hate to see Kentucky Fried Chicken. Every time I see it, I want to just tear the sign. Because you know good and damn well that son of a bitch never cooked anything in his life, let alone fried chicken. But we did that. We fried that. We're the ones that made the hamburger, right? We came together. But I'm going to give black men their credit because I'm tired of people picking on black men if black men didn't do anything. But at the end of the week, they'd been out in the field, their hands were cracking from picking cotton, from. They would come in at the end of the week, say, put on your red dress, baby. Cause we're going out tonight. You have to love a man. That all that he went through, knowing that if he took her out, what were his chances of not coming back? What were his chances of being Lynched and people pick on a black man. He's got things to be picked on about. But if he never did anything else but say, put on your red dress, baby, because we're going out tonight. You have to love a man that can do that. All they went through, that's what he came up with. That's not lazy. That's not stupid. That's to say, there's going to be joy no matter what these people do. I may not make it to the end of this night, but no matter what happens tonight, right now, we're going out tonight.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Yeah, I want to go back.

[Torre]

I'm sorry.

[Nikki Giovanni]

At the beginning of that, you said, Ann Cheatham did you a favor by expelling you. And you really focused on that more than the woman who embraced you and let you come back in. And it goes to something that I keep noticing and seeing that quite often success comes out of failure. And sometimes we may not realize at the moment this failure will become a great success for me or will lead to that. But you experienced that very, very early on.

[Torre]

Well, you learn something from everything, so you have to make decisions. I mean, that's what I'm. You know, you asked. But I think the best thing happened was I got kicked out because, one, my IQ was really high. I'm not talented. I mean, my sister could sing, and she could dance and she could play the piano. So I couldn't do anything like that. But I was smart, and so I was used to doing things a certain way. And what had happened was that it was Thanksgiving, and I got a ride. A friend who was from Knoxville, her dad came to pick her up, and I'm from Knoxville, so they gave me a ride home. Well, what I hadn't done that upset Cheatham was I had to ask her permission. And so I went to see my grandparents, right? And I spent Thanksgiving. As it turned out, Grandpapa died. So again, if I hadn't gone, I wouldn't have seen him. When I got back to school, Ann said, you didn't ask my permission, which is the worst thing. I just cursed a doctor out about that. The worst thing you can say to me is, I didn't. I didn't ask you to do something with my life. I didn't say things like, bitch, do you know who you're talking to? But I did say, I don't need anybody's permission to lead my life. And she said, well, I'm going to recommend that you be, you know, dismissed. And I didn't say, bitch, I don't care what you recommend. But I knew one thing. I'm going to always go where I want to go and I'm always going to come where I want to come. I try to keep my word, I try to be a nice person, but I'm not going to have any on God's earth telling me what I can and cannot do. That is. That's a huge no. No.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Where did that sense of strength and purpose and self reliance come from?

[Torre]

Watching my father beat my mother every Saturday. I just. That will not happen to me. And I don't care what or why. It's just the worst thing to say to somebody like me. And there are other people that do not. She's not going to do it. And the fact. And I would have. I would not have seen grandpapa to what, make Ann Cheatham happy, if that makes sense to you. You know, we need to talk to another kind of doctor. Because if I were the dean and I had me and I had gone to see my grandparents, I would have said, you know, I'm really Ms. Jermyn, I was worried about you and I'm glad you're back home. How were your people? How are your people? That's the question.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I mean. Streaming December 12th on Peacock. Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie are back.

[Torre]

That's hot.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Loves it.

[Torre]

For a show stopping reunion that will.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Prove putting on an opera is anything but simple. We're really good at this. One thing's for sure, they won't be upstaged.

[Torre]

Good to have you back. Come on, we've got a show to do.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Paris and The Encore.

[Torre]

A three part reunion special.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Streaming December 12th only on Peacock. This episode is brought to you by. Skinny Pop Popcorn. Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious. Oh so light and crunchy. Skinny Pop original Popcorn is the snack you've been searching for. Made with just three simple ingredients. Popcorn kernels, sunflower and salt. Snacking never felt or tasted so good. Perfectly popped, endlessly delicious. Give yourself permission to snack and pick up Skinny Pop original Popcorn today. The intent has to be considered at some level. So your writing career begins when you publish yourself. And at that time that was unheard of. Now it's much easier. But I think for a lot of writers, the notion that they should publish or can publish themselves is a bit foreign. They want the imprimatur of somebody, Simon and Schuster, Random House to say, yes, you are a published writer, but you don't need it, right?

[Torre]

I began to realize, oh, because I am writing, I could write in school as something I enjoyed. And so finally, at A certain point I realized, oh, black feeling, Black dog. I have a book. And so now the question is. And I'm living in New York because that's the question is, what are you going to do with it? No, I never lived in Harlem.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Where in New York?

[Torre]

I lived in midtown, on Amsterdam Avenue. And then I moved up to 92nd and Central Park West. And so the question was, how do you get it done? Well, this is New York, and so there have to be 8,000 printers. Right. So the question is finding a printer, which I did. And then I'm asking the printer, what do I need to do to get a couple of hundred books? And he said his name was Bill. I can't think of his length. I can give you 100 books for $100 if we do. Yeah. And I said, that's great, because then I can sell the book for a dollar and I can break even. That's all I was trying to do. And we did. Plus, I grew up in the church. Grandmother was a Baptist, Grandmother Mount Zion ame. And when we moved to Cincinnati, I was born in Knoxville. But when, if I'm making sense here, when we moved, when I was born, I was the first person born in a hospital in my family. But when Mommy delivered me, we moved. After that, we moved to Cincinnati because my father had a job in Cincinnati, and Mommy started going to the ame, African Methodist Episcopal. So I'm having the Baptist church. You know, I have these two. I think church is very important. I think church has become a job now. I mean, it's a business. But when I was growing up, it was a place that you learn how to talk, you learn how to be a part of, you know. And so it was like, hey, okay, we've got all of these churches, Adam Clayton Powers Church. You know, we have all of these churches. And I thought, well, if the Bible isn't poetry, what is? So, you know, let me see if I can. If the ministers will let me come up and do some readings in the evening, because all they can tell you is no. And I don't think of myself as friendly. I don't. I get along with. I mean, but I. I'm not really friendly. And so I got to meet some of the ministers and said, you know, this is what I. You know, is it possible for us to do this? Well, I'm bringing them a free program. I'm treating them with respect, you know, and I have a bad mouth. I mean, as you know. But I'm not going to go into the church and Call somebody a bitch or something. I'm going to read the poems that can be read in church because you have to realize, no matter what it is, you have to realize where you are. And so I was beginning to be able to deal with an audience and Now I'm doing 100 books at $100. But now the second hundred books is only going to be about 70 because it's going to keep going down because we don't have to make plates. I'm never going to make money, but I'm going to make enough to be able to sell the book. And then I can also take my book with me. And as I'm reading, I can offer it. I'm given a free show. If it works for you, if it's okay, if I didn't embarrass you or make you angry, would you like to have a copy of the book?

[Nikki Giovanni]

What was driving you at this early stage of your writing career? There was not the acclaim yet. Right?

[Torre]

So I don't think there's acclaim that.

[Nikki Giovanni]

No, stop it.

[Torre]

Come on. No, it's true. I did an interview the other day and it's. I was reading one of my older books. It's the truth, Toray. I'm just not arrogant like that, but it's the truth. And I realized I was reading one of the poems and I realized, oh my God, that's a really good poem. And I said this to the person I was in and I said, I wish it's a woman. I said to her, I was on the phone and I said, and I realized, wow, that's a really good poem. And she said, you can't really think like that. And I said, if I don't think like that, I would be like all these other people who are unhappy with themselves. I have few but very good friends. I think that my life is. I think I've done my job. Anything else gonna make you crazy? And we've seen the crazies.

[Nikki Giovanni]

So you're going through the self publishing process, pushing your name out for the purpose of trying to become famous, for the purpose of trying to get the truth as you see it out. Like, what were you.

[Torre]

We're doing. It's the ideas. But of course, when I lived, when I first moved here to New York, my next door neighbor, and he turned out to be so important, was Morgan Freeman.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Was Morgan Freeman.

[Torre]

And Morgan, of course, he was starting his acting career and he had a daughter and the daughter's name is Dina. And Jeannie was his wife then. And Jeannie worked Because that's what was feeding them. And Morgan had to go for her. And so Morgan would knock on my door, and I live in the apartment there. And I said, yeah. He said, hey, are you busy? I said, well, I'm writing, Morgan. Well, since you're not busy. Exactly the way he looked at it. And around the corner was Gene McDaniels, who invited us all over to here when he first did it Feel Like Making Love. Cornell Dupree was directly below us. And, you know, kind of. It was an incredible. Gregory Hines was down. I'm going like this because my building. Gregory Hines was down the street. Milton Graves and Don Pullen were across the street. So it was a very creative. I don't. I'm not against fame. I don't have a famous problem like that. But I thought that what you do with an idea is get it out. And if, you know, almost everything that I do pretty much is free. I do. When I'm doing. When I'm producing it, it's pretty much free. And the second book that I did was Black Judgment. J U D G E M E N T. And in Doing Judgment, I thought, well, my mother, of course, is a big jazz fan. And I thought, wouldn't it be fun to have it at Birdland? Because Birdland's right down the street. And I know. I still know enough crooks to know and enough people in jail. I thought, well, Harold Logan owned Birdland, and he owns it with. Oh, it wasn't Pickett. Right now, I can't think of it. Harold was the one you had to talk to. And so I went down one evening, you know, early, because he was there all day. And it's a Mr. Logan. I'm, you know, naked behind Yakity Yak. I wonder what I have to do, because it was just a question to get Birdland to be able to have a reading in Birdland. I know that you're closed on Sunday because. And I said, I wonder what. What I have to do. And I guess he thought is this. I'm a writer, and I want to have a book party at Birdland. And we talked for a while, and he finally said, okay, I'll tell you what I'll never forget. He said, bring me 100 people, and you can have the club. 99 people, and you owe me $500. That's a deal, you know, because I figured I can get 100 people to do anything. I got on the radio, you know, we did it. We didn't. But Morgan was my. I had Morgan Barbara Ann Tear Novella Nelson it was great. And so I could see all of these people were coming. And so people started to come, and people started to come, and people started to come. Well, Mommy was thrilled because Birdland. But you know where Birdland used to be? And it comes like this and then it goes. And the New York Times at that point was over there. And what they saw was all of these people lined up and they sent a reporter down to say, what's going on? And the reporter started asking people, you know, what's going on? And of course, the answer was, black judgment is coming. So you can see the problem. And finally the reporter got to me and he said, I'm looking for Nick Giovanni. Do you know where he is? And I'm Nikki Giovanni. No, no, I'm looking for Nick Giovanni. I said, well, when you find her, let me know. And I just went on and finally came back. Well, what happened was that I made the second news front for the New York Times. It was just because they had never seen anything like that. It was just wonderful. And you opened the New York Times, and there I was, Black Jack.

[Nikki Giovanni]

So the career starting to go, but then you go bankrupt.

[Torre]

Well, not having money is not significant. What I wanted to do was what I was doing, which is I had an idea that we got out. You and I were just laughing, and you can cut this out. But I was just saying I've been given a lot of thinking about, you know, the penis is on its way to being extinct. So it really is. I know, but it is, because it's been abuse. And anything that gets misused like that is going to be extinct. I think it'll probably be another couple of hundred years before it happens, but it's going. And everybody ought to get used to that. But I sit around and think, what's next? So I enjoy it because I'm an American, I'm a college graduate. I'm never going to be hungry. I'm never going to be cold. I'm never going to. I'm not going to be on the street. I'm not saying that other people aren't. I'm not saying that. I'm not upset about the fact that. But I'm not. So my job, I think, is to say, what's next?

[Nikki Giovanni]

So you, as an artist, have been able to divorce yourself from the desire or need for finance and just said, let's just deal with the work and the truth as I see it.

[Torre]

Well, I think that it's probably a good idea. I was laughing last night at the Schomburg, as a young man asked about it, it's probably a good idea to have enough money to live. I mean, I'm not crazy, of course, but when you start to look at these people, these billionaires, you know something's wrong. First of all, nobody should have those resources, should not be used in that way, and nobody's that important.

[Nikki Giovanni]

But some artists are thinking, you know, what is the project that will make me more money? And you are consistently saying, I don't care about that, or how do I run my business to make more money? You're like, I don't care about that. I just want to get the ideas out.

[Torre]

You want my business, I guess you could call it, is I do art, but I'm never going to be hungry. And I don't understand the greed. I don't understand the people that can't let anything go because they're saying, well, what I don't understand, you know, fools like Trump and all of those people on his cabinet, those greedy racists on his cabinet who don't do anything but try to figure out how to make more money. If life is only about money, then what we ought to do is set up a press someplace and run it off. That's not what life is about. Life is about. We were talking earlier. It's about finding somebody that you can love and trust. It's about what you share, what you can give. One of our neighbors, I'm in the mountains here. One of our neighbors found a little deer on the side of the road. It just breaks my heart. And it had been hit, but it wasn't dead. Now, a lot of people, of course, would have killed it to do something they would have called put out of its misery. But he did something I thought was beautiful. He picked it up because just a little baby, you know, took it home, put it on his couch, and started calling around. A lot of places don't take wild animals because there's nothing you can do with it. But we have some places that do. And so he was able to help it. Not just help it, but the leg was broken, so he was able to do something with that. And finally it found a home. It found a home. Ultimately, it's going to be all right, and it'll go back, back into the woods. But that's what life is about. If he never does anything else, he can on his deathbed say, but I saved a deer.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Wow. Wow.

[Torre]

That's all you can ask for.

[Nikki Giovanni]

The NBA cup is about to be captured. Puts it up half Foot of the buzzer bang. And the last team standing are in Vegas for the final showdown. The action eating up here in Vegas. It's time to go all in on the hardwood because only one team can pull off the heist for this in season title winner take all. Themmeritz NBA cup semifinals Saturday on ABC and TNT.

[Torre]

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ads. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com campaign to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com campaign. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be. To be. You are an extraordinary performer of your own work.

[Torre]

Thank you.

[Nikki Giovanni]

And I think that's really important to how we understand the work and how you express the ideas. And for a lot of writers, they are introverts and they leave their game at the typewriter or the computer, and that's where their personality shines. But put them in front of an audience and they shrink. And from your earliest years, your earliest opportunities to perform your work, you're performing it in this fantastic way that makes it shine and brings people into it. And that's a critical part of a writer, getting people interested in their work.

[Torre]

I like. And I said, I'm not friendly, but I like people. And I really do. I just have such a faith that if we can just keep putting those ideas out, I think that probably anybody that's reading me, whatever else they know, they say, but she likes me. She didn't. I'm not using them. I'm trying to say, and don't you want to think about it this way? And I enjoy it. I was recently. I had a brain. I had a bit of a seizure. No, not a bit. I had a seizure and I was in the hospital for quite a while. And there's still things, once you have seizures, you forget. And so people have to. I mean, I recognize you tore. And it's amazing because there are a lot of people that I don't recognize. And I have to say, and who are you? Because it has to go back, click, click, click. But the one thing that I knew, I was lying in the hospital and I said, if I don't die, which I sincerely hope that I wouldn't, because I'm glad to be alive, I need to get on stage because I knew if I could get back on stage, a lot was going to come back. And what kept coming back is my poetry. And so I kept being on stage because that's where I live. And so it is. It's exactly where I live. And it's where I'm comfortable and where I have. It's just me. I enjoy it. And I think, you know, when I'm 73, I've been doing this for what, 50 something years. And so I think that just knowing that's where I am, that stage is important. So it's one reason I haven't retired. I keep teasing tech, they're going to fire me one day. But a classroom is not exactly a stage, but it's pretty much. And being there has helped me with the routine. So I get up and I go and I teach my class and all of this is helping me to come back. I'm only going to come back so much. I mean, a seizure is a seizure and I'm not in any danger or anything like that. But you have to recognize, well, there's a limit to what you can do. I used to dust a lot, but I don't dust anymore. So that's what I gave up. My house is dusting. Now.

[Nikki Giovanni]

You do the first two books and they sell like crazy. And the fame grows to a very high level to where you are associated with the black arts movement. You are the poet of the black arts movement. When you become a person who is, you know, so much is on your words. Does it, does it, does it become a challenge when you're sitting to write that? It's no longer just me and these words in this paper, but all these people are waiting for my words. And there's this meaning behind them and right there's this weight to my name. Does that become an extra voice in the head when you're trying to write?

[Torre]

I'm not a politician and I'm not a leader. And I think if we looked at my new book actually, and I finally have learned to do it, you see me. The new book, which will be out next fall, is called A Good Cry because I finally learned to cry. Because it's something I've been holding inside. But if you look at my work, you'll see that there are contradictions. There are also. You call it contradictions, you call it madness, I call it love, you call it contradictions, I call it growth. And so I've never looked at my words like, oh, somebody's waiting on me because nobody's waiting on me. I'm just a poet. Nobody's sitting around saying, I wonder what the poet.

[Nikki Giovanni]

But you were not just. I mean, in the 60s, you know, Martin and Malcolm are doing their things. You know, Bobby Seale and Huey Newton, et cetera. And you know, Coltrane and, you know, Baraka and. Right. I mean, people are attacking the notion of, you know, oppression and going toward freedom and all. You know, Nina Simone's doing her thing. And you are one of those people, right, who people are looking for and waiting. She's expressing the will of the people. She's expressing, you know, the sentiment of the movement. And I just wonder, you know, when you're a lonely writer that nobody knows your name, you have one sort of thing, I think when you're sitting with the paper, it's just you and your thoughts. When you are a known writer, it's.

[Torre]

Just you and your thoughts. And if you lose track of that, you're going to lose track of a lot of things. And speaking of people, you know, I was close to Nina, actually. I've got. And I had. Well, I won't release them. I have about 10 hours of tapes that I made while talking with Nina because she wanted to do her autobiography. And she just asked me, Nick, she lived upstate. And I'm the only person I know who liked Andy, who likes her husband. Andy would take Lisa, their daughter, and my son Thomas, he'd take them swimming every Saturday. I always liked Andy. And of course, you have to love Nina. And I was never able, and you have no idea how sorry, to get her to take that step that says, all you can do is your best. That's all you can do. And in terms of Nina, you know, I love Mississippi. Goddamn, who wouldn't? Yes, but there's others. She could sing and she could play. And again, when she's on stage, she's comfortable. That's where she is. So she has to. I couldn't make her see that. She has to let her world become that. Otherwise she's going to do what she did, which is break down, and she's going to lose control, which she did of her life. And it's not going to be as wonderful as. As it could have been. That, gosh, wouldn't you just have loved to see Nina just get up and go into a church and say good morning and, you know, sing with, you know, Ame. Because I'm a big fan of that Our Holiness, you know, none of that high falutin stuff. None of those really important talk about Martin but, you know, all of those kind of Baptist people, you know, that's a business. But wouldn't it have been lovely if she could have found a way that she just woke up on Sunday morning, 11 o'clock and walked in and saying, jesus loves me. This. I know it would have, I think, helped her. And nothing broke my heart as much as watching her, because we were. We were close, you know, fairly close. And in terms of her going, I didn't. She didn't need me to do that anyway. I was like a little sister or something. But she's going to, like, Europe and stuff. And it's like, what you need to do, in my opinion, is find a home. And you say, well, if Nina Simone is coming to your church, everybody's going to be excited. But if you know anything at all about little old black churches, maybe the first time that she came in, they said, oh, that's Nina Simone. But after that, she's either going to be a part of the choir or she's not. And you love black people for that because it would have given her.

[Nikki Giovanni]

So let's go deeper into this notion I'm trying to get at. How do you write a poem?

[Torre]

It seems like I wrote a poem about that, that. This is not a poem. You write a poem based on what you're thinking. And as you probably noticed, you know, by the time I get to my. Oh, about my fifth book, the poems are long because I'm daydreaming, you know, and finally we got to quilting the Black Eyed Pea. We're going to Mars. And I've been so. I'm so excited about trying to find a way. And I'm just doing what I can to get black youngsters to recognize that in our blood is space travel. Because we've come from a known through an unknown to an unknown. And that's all the space travel is. And we got these kids out here and they're shooting each other and stuff. And what they need to be doing is looking at the stars and saying, how did our ancestors 200 years ago make this journey and find and make a home? And can I make this journey from here to Mars or to Titan? Can I do that? Can I create something? And my answer is, yes, you can. The minute you quit fooling around with people you don't like, who don't like you, find the people you love, no matter what their color, what their race, where they came from, put that group together and then figure out how we go ahead.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Okay, but. Okay, but take me to you where do you do it? Can it be anywhere, or do you have a ritualized place where you do it?

[Torre]

I don't know. I do it wherever. You enjoy writing?

[Nikki Giovanni]

Yeah.

[Torre]

Oh, yeah. I like to write at my desk, of course. I mean, I have a den.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I mean. So what are you doing? Is it. Does it come out in one moment or is it tinkering involved? Does it take like, okay, I gotta work on it, put it away.

[Torre]

I do that sometimes, too.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Is there an outline, Is there an intention that we start with, or.

[Torre]

No, those novelists do that, you know. You, I've always seen, but I know some really excellent novelists, so I probably should get in that habit. But there are things that you. I have written, and I shouldn't say it like that. I know I've written some bad poems and some of them just aren't good poems, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to publish them, because there's something there that ought to be. That ought to be out there. And I don't have the ego that says everything I write has to be perfect, because it doesn't. And I have enough sense to know which is which, you know? But some of the others that have caught me off guard. A poem that I wrote called Allowables, because I killed a spider. And I felt so, so guilty about it. I mean, as I said, I'm learning to cry, but I shouldn't have killed her. And I ended up writing this poem. It wasn't, in my opinion, wasn't an important poem. And it ended up in the book. And I got. I have not. I shouldn't say I've got. I have. It's been translated. Finish your sentence, Nikki, into Korean. I have people. It has come into so many languages because people realize, no, you can't kill something because it's inconvenient. And that's what that poem said. And I am so pleased. But I didn't write it thinking, oh, goody, the Koreans will translate it. I wrote it because I was embarrassed about myself. I should not have killed that spider. But I can't bring her back, and I don't know why it's her. That does not work.

[Nikki Giovanni]

So, I mean, if I looked at a page of your writing while you're conceiving, would it be clean? Would there be lots of crossouts? Are you searching for the right word or are you just finding it? Is it sort of just unspool or is it work?

[Torre]

Sometimes you're looking for a better word, you know, But I'm Relatively articulate. So I'm usually, by the time I'm writing it, I'm usually having an idea of what the word. What I am is a poor speller. And thank God I have a great. Rachel Kahn is my editor now. And Rachel catches my spelling. I can't spell. And of course your computer does some spelling, but then the computer wants to think on its own, so it's better to send it in. And my friend Jenny, who is here. And I'd be incredibly lost without Jenny. But I don't ask Jenny to read my poetry because the chances are good that she'd have an opinion and if she did, it would cost us our friendship. I love her so much and I would rather love her than have her opinion on my poetry.

[Nikki Giovanni]

So are you conceiving it in the mind before you start writing it? Is that what you're saying?

[Torre]

I do.

[Nikki Giovanni]

And so by the time you're putting it down, it's already.

[Torre]

I'm pretty well in knowing where I'm trying to go. And again, I mentioned allowables just because it certainly caught me off guard. And then there was a little poem which again, I knew that it was a nice poem when I wrote it. And a nice poem can mean any number of things, but it's called winter poem and it's been translated into, what do you call it, lyrics. People have written about it and they've made songs out of it. A couple of people have done that and it's been translated. And so you're glad. Who would have thought if you had said, oh, which one of your poems is going to be a song? I wouldn't have said winter poem, you know.

[Nikki Giovanni]

So do you have half finished poems in your mind right now that you're waiting to.

[Torre]

No, not right now. That's the truth. Right now I'm working on my new book is going to be out in the fall and I'm working with what has to be worked with, with that. And you know, it's like, you know, I'm a good cook, so it's like keeping the lamb rack in my mind, you know, you shouldn't do that. And so I know that if I get a chance to. And I like to grill. If I get a chance to grill, I will. If I had time to sit down and write, you know, I spent time in Aruba. I used to spend a lot of time in Mexico. And it's always nice to just be away because then you get to relax. I didn't write anything, but I got to catch up on my Reading, which there's something in your heart that lets that happen.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Which is part of the writing process.

[Torre]

Yeah. It is just sitting in the sun. And you get to know the people. They get to know you. Beverly does the towels. And so I go in the morning. Morning, Beverly. Morning, Nikki. And I take my towels and sit there, you know, and it's just, you know, what you're trying to do. And that's what I was saying. I was answering a question at the Schomburg. You can't. I don't think. I think it's unwise to look forward to. I want to be rich and famous. That's just crazy. I think that what you want to do is a good job that do.

[Nikki Giovanni]

To that point, I would like you to read a poem.

[Torre]

Uh. Oh.

[Nikki Giovanni]

If you could obviously yours. And talk about it a little bit. And I would never ask you to explain it, but whatever you want to talk about with it. And the poem that I would love to hear you read is Nikki Rosa, if that's okay. And I'm gonna.

[Torre]

That was a very conscious. I don't have my glasses either. Nikki Rosa, could you read it?

[Nikki Giovanni]

Oh, you want to talk about it?

[Torre]

I probably can do a little bit.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Lunches, everything.

[Torre]

Nikki Rosa was. We talked earlier about the process of what you are going to do and what you're not. Whatever it was, I had to make up my mind that this is who I want to be. So when I did, Nikki Rosa. Because everybody's always talking about black people are poor and black people and hey, what's not so childhood remembrance is always a drag if you're black. And then you always remember things like living and whatnot and no inside toilet, which was true. I don't know what the next. But I'm dealing with, uh, oh, I need my. And if you become famous or something. They never talk about how happy you were to have your mother all to yourself and how good the water felt when you got your bath from one of those big tubs that folk in Chicago barbecue in. I don't know if you ever bathed in a tin and they put the hot.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Well, I've seen with the babies. I've seen.

[Torre]

It's so wonderful. And somehow when you talk about home, it never gets across how much you understood their feelings. As the whole family attended meetings about Hollydale, which was a segregated community that we were trying to build. Ultimately, it's not going to happen. It didn't happen. And even though you remember, your biographers never understand your father's pain as he sells his Stock. And another dream goes, and though you're poor, it isn't poverty that concerns you. And though they fought a lot, it isn't your father's drinking that makes any difference, but only that everybody is together. And you and your sister have happy birthdays and very good Christmases. And I really hope no white person ever has cause to write about me because they never understand black love is black wealth. And they'll probably talk about my hard childhood and never understand that all the while I was quite happy. And I ended up with that line which I hadn't thought about until it came back to me. Black love is black wealth. It is. But I also had to make up my mind that watching my parents, something else had to happen. And living in woodland was not something you would go back to. It's so funny. Speaking of the penis becoming extinct, there is an ad that. I don't know what it is. You take it. I really don't know what it is, but it's got the two tubs and she's in one tub and he's in Cialis. Cialis.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Yes.

[Torre]

And I was thinking. I was laughing because we grew up with that tub. And, you know, you put the cold water, then you add the hot water. But ultimately we moved from Woodline into Lincoln Heights. It's one of those kind of. And I thought, well, I can't let people tell me that something's wrong with the way this was. I have to make up my mind how I'm going to look at my life. And so that's all I was trying to do. And I was surprised and very pleased again that the New York Times has been a good friend of mine. I don't think they meant to be, but we ended up with that one. And when it came out, when a book called Creation came out, there was a poem in there called Ego Tripping. And they. I actually framed it. I look at it every day. They published that. That was on editorial page. So, I mean. And I was, of course, thrilled. I bought a bunch of them and sent them off with.

[Nikki Giovanni]

You say you're not a leader. I would challenge that notion because I think you are an emotional leader and that maybe you're not telling people what to think in a political sense. But that poem in particular, and others. But that one, I know I have seen read so many times by so many, especially by young women and taking from it this sense of empowerment, right. And value to themselves. And, like, I can read this poem and really, you know, subsume these words inside me and I Have value. Right? Like Jesse Jackson. Right. You are somebody. And you. You have done that for people so many times in your career.

[Torre]

I'm so glad. Again, I'm not looking to meddle in somebody's life. I just. I'm back to my favorite word right now. I guess I just want to do a good job, that's all. And I don't want to even fool myself. You know, when that fool stole the election, people called a lot of people, and I happened to be one of the people. They called and said, you know, Dr. Giovanni, you know, would you like to write a piece on what you tell Donald Trump? And I said, no. And a couple of people said no. Well, may we ask why? I said, yeah, because one, he's not going to listen to me. And two, I'm not that arrogant. I know that he's not. And I know that whatever I have to say, I need to say it to the people who do. If I'm saying something, I need to say it to the people that do. So I would be happy now if Hillary runs for mayor. I'm gonna come up here and see. Everybody says, people, listen to you. I'm gonna come up here and see. Cause I would love to see Hillary Clinton mayor of New York City. It'd be the best thing that happened. Cause we need a change. And New York is the most important. I don't care what Chicago, Boston, I don't care what any of these other Louisiana. None of that. New York. New York is the most important city, America. And actually, we could make a case that New York right now is the most important city in the world because everybody comes here. And if we put Hillary in, of course somebody else wanted to. The first thing we do is we would have a parade that goes. We change the parade and make it go past Trump Tower. And that would be fun. That would be really good.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I want to talk about Virginia Tech for a moment, because you've been there 30 years. Celebrity professors tend to move around a bunch. Right. Generally, the Ivy League tries to suck them up. Right. And I wonder, you know, have they not called you? How did you. It seems that you have sidestepped the academic rat race and said, I'm just going to be here at this school. I don't really care. I'm sure that you could be at Harvard or Stanford or wherever you wanted to be.

[Torre]

Nobody would care about me there. And at Tech, it's home. And I said that a long time ago. It was never a job. And when I. When I first went to Tech, Actually, Jen, Jenny recruited me and I was there for a year. I talked to my mother about it because my father was dead then. And I talked to Mommy and I said, well, let's. Let's see how it is. And I went for the year and it was at home. I mean, we, we're Appalachian. And so mommy moved in, but Mommy. Mommy was born on June, July, excuse me, January 5, 1919. And her sister, they're called Irish twin. Her sister Ann was born on the 6th of January, 1920. You know, they were just like that. And so Mommy moved and then Ann. Ann, we call her Anto. Anto came. Ultimately, Agnes came. So I was. Had ended up moving the whole family. And again, there's no downside to Virginia Tech. We are family and what we do together. I've gotten work done. Everybody doesn't like me at Tech, but I don't like everybody. And I think that's what people always miss. You know, some of the kids. And I say that to the kids when I'm lecturing to colleges. They'll say, oh, you know, the white kids don't like us. One of them does. Go put a T shirt on. I am looking for the white kid. One does. And there are people that don't like you, but you don't like them. So find the people who do. And so it's not that I'm an anti Ivy League or, you know, anti. But I'm happy. And again, I deserve to be happy and I'm contributing and I deserve to contribute. And I think that my presence at Virginia Tech has helped. I would like to see more. I would like to see more of our athletes, certainly being English majors. I really, really would. Because I think that. Well, first of all, what I want is I want the football I want to work with, and I'm working on that with the drama department. Because football, if you've seen it, is a ballet. And the question is, what's the music? And so I'm saying to the drama department, why don't we work together? Well, I don't want these kids over taking sos. I'm not against sociology, but you know damn well they're not doing anything with it. I want to bring them into English, which is going to be a part of the music, and so they can begin to see what we're doing on the field is a ballet. And this is how I conduct myself. And we've had so many problems, as you know right now, especially with our football players who they're not conducting themselves as well. And I think if they saw that this is a drama, this is something. This is a play. You're acting. So if you win or you lose, this is how you handle it. We could help these kids mature because they're talented. They have. They can do things. But right now, we're not asking enough of their intercept. We're asking a lot of their outer selves. And if we can get that done in tech, I would.

[Nikki Giovanni]

That would be.

[Torre]

I'd be ready to. I'd be ready to retire.

[Nikki Giovanni]

One of the things that stands out from the last time we spoke like this was you talking about the young man who, you know, shot up Virginia Tech. And what stood out to me in your telling of that was that you had had him in your class years before the thing happened, and you had seen it. You had seen the evil. And what that said to me, thinking about that story for years, was that your spiritual sensitivity is much higher than the average person. I think you said that to me. I was like, how would you know that? And you were like, I'm a poet. I am connected to the universe in a different way. And people will throw that around. But I think, clearly, you have shown us that you have that.

[Torre]

Well, thank you.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Can you talk a little bit about that spiritual sensitivity, that connection, that being able to see other people and how that comes into the work?

[Torre]

I just know that I'm not afraid of what I see. And so. Well, you know, Mr. Cho, that was easy because I offered. I was very nice about it, to help him get into another writing class. And he said he didn't want to. And that's one of the. It's an expression I use all the time. Louder or slower? Because obviously you're not paying attention. And I'm saying, no, you don't have to leave my class. I can help you or it doesn't matter, but you'll have to leave my class. Said, I don't want to. Louder or slower, Mr. Cho, this was a Tuesday. Next Thursday. I teach Tuesday. Thursday. Either you are out of my class, or my resignation for Virginia Tech is on my department head's desk. I'm not going to be in a classroom with you. That's easy. He said, you won't do that. And, Mr. Cho, you don't know me at all. And I went to see my department head and said that to her, that one of us will not be here. She said, well, do you mind if I take him over? I said, I don't care what. And that's the truth. I'm not trying to hurt this kid. I don't care what happened to him. I know that I will not have him in my class. Now I can also say, and I know it a fact, he wasn't looking for me because he did it on a Monday and I'm never on tech on Monday. So whatever he was doing, but it was just not. And I'm not, I wasn't afraid. And I would have because I would have resigned because I'm not going to teach him, I'm not going to be in the room with him, I'm not going to be around him.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Because you perceived the evil.

[Torre]

It was an evil. It was something that I'm not going to be bothered with. I could have been wrong. You see what I'm saying? I would have gone in, sent my resignation. This young man would have graduated and gone on and got his PhD. And everybody said, nikki, you were a fool. But I would rather be a fool believing in myself than a fool not. I believe in what I see and what I hear. I believe in who I love and who I dislike. I don't have problems with that.

[Nikki Giovanni]

And so moving forward a little bit, in one year you lose mommy, your.

[Torre]

Aunt, my sister, my Mommy died on June 24th. Gary, my sister died August 10th. My aunt Ann died the 29th of October and Wendy the dog died the 10th of December.

[Nikki Giovanni]

So, God, I mean an incredible six months. And then you wrote about it. How did you pick yourself up to be able to. I mean, you know, I think many people, myself included, would be just, I'm just gonna lay on the floor cause I can't go on. But you wrote about it and moved on. How did you pick yourself up from that difficult period to be able to write about it and keep going?

[Torre]

I don't know that I have. And I know that the book that I. I know two things that I've tried to share because I don't mind sharing them like that. But when I ended up with this seizure and I think my doctor's good looking, let me start with that. Thank God Gregory's good looking. And Gregory says it's because I have high blood pressure, you know. And I said to Gregory, I think it's because I've never learned to cry. This is where this started. And I think if I had learned to cry when I was burying people and doing these things, I would never. I would have been able to get it out. And by keeping it in, finally my brain or my heart or my soul, whatever it is, said, no, Nikki, you're going to deal with it. And so that's why I'm dealing with it now. I'm learning to cry now and little things. I'm sure people are sick of being around me now because little things, I mean, I was telling you about my grandmother and that's just very hard. Every time I think of looking over my shoulder and grandmother seeing that music, things bring tears to my eyes now that never would. And so that's a part of what you say down. But I had things to do. But I'm not the only person, and I'm certainly not the only woman who with a lot of grief, had things to do, who was going to do it. I went from being one of the babies in the family and my Aunt agnes, who was 93, but my aunt Agnes is not doing well and essentially I am the elder of the family. So somebody had to take over, if I can say that, somebody had to make sure that these things were being done. So people had to be buried. People had, you know, pom, pom, pom, pom, pom pom. And you don't have any time for yourself. And in talking to a lot of my friends and in talking to strangers, standing on stage and people will come up to you and they'll say, you know, it's true. I lost my mother, my grandmother. I buried my. Can you imagine? I buried my child. And you're going to be sad. There's no question of the sadness of some fool cop shot your 14 year old in the back or whatever. You know, there's no question of the sadness of that. And yet you have to find a way to go on. So at this point, we look, I would imagine we look, we look to Afenny Shakur, who must surely have looked at the mother of Emmett Till. She must have looked at Ms. Braddy, Tupac's mother. How did you. Oh, she. Yeah, I went and got. I went and got her and I got teased by. I went and got a tattoo. And they said, why did you do that? So it was only. I don't know, effendi, she's gone now. But I didn't want her to think she was alone. But she must surely have looked at Emmett's mother and said, how does she do this? Well, she did that by bringing something together to say, we're not going to let these. I want the world to see, if I may quote, Ms. Bradley, Emmett's mother.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Yes.

[Torre]

I want the world to see what they did to my son.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Open the casket. Do not close the casket. I will let them see what they.

[Torre]

Did to his body, but she had to look also. Can you imagine knowing what your child went through? Can you imagine?

[Nikki Giovanni]

I mean, he had the eye hanging down and this and that, and do we touch it up a little bit? They kept saying, do we touch it up a little bit? No, don't change it at all.

[Torre]

So she needed to learn to cry. I don't know. I don't know that she did or didn't, but I know at the point that the world needed her, she didn't.

[Nikki Giovanni]

You keep coming back to this. This has been, it seems to be a significant late life project of learning to cry. And that was occasioned by you didn't do it in your year of magical thinking. Right. So then, so after that you said, and now you're. I mean, how did you get to understanding I need to acquire this skill.

[Torre]

I'm 73 years old. If I don't learn now, when do I plan to learn? Yeah, but it was just something, as I say, and having awakened in the hospital and finally, you know, and I realized, no, that's what Gregory and I. And I'm always Dr. Beato. That's what Gregory and I argue about that. He says, well, you know, you had. Your blood pressure was up and you were under pressure because, you know, you're always under pressure about something. And I'm saying, Gregory, it's because I've never learned to cry. And so we keep going back, Gregory and I keep going back and forth. I'm right, by the way.

[Nikki Giovanni]

So how do you learn that?

[Torre]

I don't know. I do know that one day there'll be a disease called the Nicky. And the response to it will be, oh, yeah, you've got the Nicci. What we're gonna do with you now is teach you how to cry. You need to learn to cry so that you can let it out, so that you're not holding it in.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Is there something, does it come perhaps from. I think there is a black stoicism, right, where we expect bad things to happen and we kind of have a stiff upper lip about a lot of these things. And was it that part that said, like, no, we don't cry. We're used to bad things happening, keep plowing forward when we do need to take that moment to grieve.

[Torre]

Well, I just know that I think you talk to any number of women, tell you truth, I think that you have to get. There are things that have to be done, and if you don't do them, who's going to do them? If you don't I can tell you this joke about my mother. My father died. Gosh, you know, I forget. I'd have to look up the date. But when we called him Gus. But when Gus died, Gus hadn't. He wasn't. He didn't take care of things. It's just not what he did. So Gus died, and of course, she didn't have any place to be buried. You know, he hadn't taken care of any of that. And so I went, I'm going to be home on that one, you know, And I was like, okay, I'm there. We're going to take care of it. And then I thought, this should not happen again because the people who are left have to take care of everything. So that Christmas, which I thought was incredibly kind of me, I bought six plots, because six. There are only 11 of us in the family, and six plots, you put two people in the plot, as you may or may not know. And so I bought six plots, and I bought the headstone. And on the headstone I had everybody's name and date of birth. And so when they. When we. Because I'm there, too. When we die, all you get to have to fill in is when she died, when we died, you know, And I was pleased. And I'm not really big on gifts because it's hard to give people stuff. But Christmas, I put it in a box and wrapped it up. So Mommy opened up the box and she saw that. What is this? What the hell? I said Mommy, and I meant it for what this costs me. If you don't want it, I'll take it back. But of course, that's what. And that's where the family is now. Gus is that we're all. We're all going to be. I mean, unless they don't want to. But Mommy and Gail, we're all there. Because now, if I drop dead right now, nobody has to worry, where should Nikki go? How's she going to do it? What's she going. No, but, you know, when you're born, you don't, but others do. When you're born, you're gonna die. So this is something that's easily prepared for. We need to prepare for it.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Well, you surely must have confronted that even more, right when you're going through lung cancer.

[Torre]

No, because I was gonna die. I had taken care of everything. So if I didn't wake up and my doctor and I. Dr. Wright. Wright is. Creighton is his name, and Creighton is a tennis fan. So I see him every year. We Go to the tennis tournament in Cincinnati, and I see Creighton. And I said, still here, thanks to you. But when they, you know, they give you anesthesia and, you know, you don't know, everybody says, well, you know, you'll be okay. And I said, all I know is, if not, it's been good.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Well, yeah, but when you're wrestling with your mortality, that you're that close, how do you rebound spiritually after being that close?

[Torre]

See, I wasn't worried about dying from lung cancer. I really wasn't. I worry when I get on airplanes and Jenny will tell you because it makes her crazy. I just can't make myself go to movies. There's something about movie houses. I just. I keep trying because, you know, your friends will say, let's go see a movie. And I said, well, let's buy it. Because I bought everything. You know, I buy, you know, going to Mars. I buy everything. And we can watch it at the house. There's just something about going to a movie. I went to see Loving because I finally got. It finally just wasn't right. For 30 years I've known Jenny, and she said. I said, okay, we'll go see Loving. And I wanted to, of course, sit in the back with my back against the. I'm too nervous to go to movie theater.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Why?

[Torre]

And because, hell, I don't know. It scares me. I don't know. I listen because I listen to myself. I wasn't worried about lung cancer, because that's up to the Lord. If the Lord said, nick, hey, girl, we ready. I understand. Thank you. Because I know whatever it is, I'm going to hell. But I'm going to get a day pass to heaven, talk to my mom.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I mean, what. What has been difficult for you to rebound from? Cause I asked you a bunch of things, and you're like, no. And it seems you have your philosophies that help you.

[Torre]

No, the one thing that I'm most afraid of is. And I couldn't begin to tell you why is a movie theater and Jenny's around. You ask her. Because I have been. I prefer to buy the movie.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I mean. I mean, something that has happened that was hard to rebound from. But you did it.

[Torre]

I fly. That's hard. I'm the worst flight. Nobody in the family. When Mommy was alive, nobody in the family likes to fly with me. Because I get on the plane, I have my. I put my earplugs in, and part of my music is spiritual. You know, it depends on. I listened to that, or I listened to jazz. And I said, I went literally from here, from JFK to a. Cry Ghana without moving. Everybody kept saying, well, you know, if you don't eat or drink, you're fine, because the only thing you have to move around in a plane is you have to pee or something. I just. I knew that I would be over an ocean. I knew that it would make me incredibly nervous, and I knew that I couldn't handle it. And so I just thought, okay, this is it. And it's one of the reasons I haven't gone to China. I don't have any way to get there. I can't take a train. I couldn't fly that far. I just. Oh, no, that would make me crazy. But I remember. And of course, I've been to. Not, of course. I don't mean it like that. I've been to South Africa. But I wasn't so nervous because I took my son. I wanted him to see that in Botswana. I wanted him to see the whole thing. But I remember when I had to, Thomas was grown and going. And I'm a really nervous flyer, and I just am. But what scares me is movie theaters. And I'm trying to get over it, but I doubt it.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Not yet.

[Torre]

I doubt it. I really do.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Okay, what is a. We kind of started with this, but what is a loss that has helped you leap forward in your life? And I don't mean, like, losing a person, but, like, you know, quite often we have. Like we said before, we have a failure, and we don't realize at the time this failure is really beneficial. At the time, it's like, I lost.

[Torre]

You know, not really. You have to say, and I've done that again. This is one of those just things that you understand. I was always a reader, so I'm coming into a lot of things because I always read, and I could see how these things happen. But most of the things that people consider mistakes are something that you've learned. And so the thing to do is step back enough to figure out how you learned it and not to blame somebody else and not to blame yourself. So I would never. And I've loved people and we've broken up, but it would never occur to me that when I broke up with someone that I thought I loved, that I would kill them. I've always been amazed at that. That somebody, you leave me, I'm going to kill you. Well, you're not going to screw me if I'm dead, so grow up. But, I mean, I, you know, you have to give yourself time to find out. And how does this benefit? How does this help? What have I. What have I learned? And I think that a lot of people pick on themselves because they think I should have handled this differently. But nothing lasts forever.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Do you think that you're a person of grit?

[Torre]

No, I wouldn't call it grit. I wouldn't say I don't have any more grit than I am friendly.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I'm still curious as to what drove you. You are one of the great poets of all time.

[Torre]

Oh, isn't that lovely? That is so nice of you to say.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Oh, it's true. And I don't think. I mean, I would struggle to find somebody who would disagree. All right. Thank you. I mean, you've been going to the desk and writing poems all the time for 50 years when nobody knew you, when everybody knew you. I mean, what has driven you to be a poet?

[Torre]

That's what I am. And that's so nice. I was speaking to Jenny, I was talking to. Because she's teaching a class next semester with older people, and it's really nice, and I know how busy she is. And so I said, well, Jenny, if you need somebody to take over the class because I'm Toni Morrison, something. I know. I said, if you need somebody to take over the class, you know, I'll. I'd be happy to do it. Just let me know, because I know I can do that. And she said, oh, no. And I said, but why? She said, because once you come in, they won't want me. And I said, that's not true. First of all, she's incredibly smart, so it's not true. But she said, you don't realize how people deal with you. And I guess I don't. And I'm thankful because I know enough people who got involved in their Persona or whatever it is, and they lost their lives. I go to Kroger's, and I'm doing an ad now for Virginia Tech. So you and the football team. Right. So I go into Kroger's. Everybody knows me. You know, people stop me. And it just doesn't take that much to calmly keep pushing your basket and say, thank you. It made them happy. I'm glad that I'm doing something right. But I'm here to get my groceries. I don't have to be rude about that or anything. Say thank you. And so all of this is a part of your life, too, and it's a good part. And I'm happy. I mean, you know, the people that I know, I'm happy and you just go on. But if you get involved with it, it's going to ruin your life. And I've seen, and I'm not naming any names, but there are a couple of people I really have learned to dislike because of the way the fame that they sought came to them. And now all of a sudden, it's like, oh, those people were stopping me in the street. Well, what the hell you think they were going to do? And so I'm delighted. I'm walking down the street, somebody, hey, Nikki, I saw your ad. Say, thank you, baby. Did I do my job? Go on about your business. It's the person at the end of the line. And I always will remember the person at the end of the line and the person that stops and says, I saw you. You did a good job. That's what life is all about.

[Nikki Giovanni]

You keep coming back to this notion of, I want to do a good job. What does that mean for Nikki Giovanni, a good job? What is. How do you know you've cleared that standard you set?

[Torre]

I probably never know. That's what I was saying that late I was doing that talk during the interview in Atlanta when I realized, oh, that's a really good point. And she was laughing. She said, you can't mean that. Yeah, I do. I mean, no, I don't think that's something that I'm going to judge. I don't know, 10 years from now to the old lady sitting someplace about to drop dead. I might say, well, if ture were here, I'd say, this is what I've learned. But you don't. You know, you just want, for lack of. I'm sorry to say it, you just want to do a good job and you want to feel like I'm doing my best. I was talking to my cousin because my aunt is not doing well. And we were talking and I said, you know, the only thing I know. And that's true, and I hope that she stays with us a long time. I really do. But what I know is that I've done the best niece. I've been the best niece that I could be. I know I can't ask any more of myself. It would be illogical for me to do that. I was a good daughter, and I have been a good niece. I wanted to do a good job, and I did. I was a good granddaughter. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna make a fool of myself.

[Nikki Giovanni]

What about the poetry? Do you think that you have been the best poet you could be?

[Torre]

I think I am be being the best poet. Because I keep writing really well. I do. I keep seeing the. A Good Cry is an interesting book. And there are some really good poems in this book. There's some that aren't.

[Nikki Giovanni]

How do you know it's good?

[Torre]

I'm an English. I teach English. I know a good poem.

[Nikki Giovanni]

But it's hard, I mean, for a writer to evaluate their own works sometimes.

[Torre]

Not if you're honest, you know. And it was really creating this book as it developed has been really interesting to me because of that. But I also know that there's some poems that are not so good in this book. Now, my luck being me, the poems that I think are not making it. I'll get. You know, the Chinese will write and say, oh, God, we teach it to 50 million people. And, you know, why don't you come to China? Or something crazy like that. But you just want to do what you can do and not be afraid of your own thoughts. You have to keep following your own. Am I? No, that's not. If you don't let yourself grow, if you don't follow your own thoughts, you'll end up singing the same song you sang 20 years ago, which is what happens to a lot of singers.

[Nikki Giovanni]

You said. I said, how do you know it's good? And you said, well, I teach English. So are you saying that you are judging your. And I want to interrogate that in particular. But are you judging your work versus other people, or are you judging it against your own work?

[Torre]

I'm just judging against what we know to be a good point. I sat here and said. We were laughing. I'm a really decent cook. I know. I cook an incredible rack of lamb, and I think that my fried chicken is among the best. I don't have to judge that against anybody.

[Nikki Giovanni]

Sure.

[Torre]

I just know when I fry my chicken and I bite into it so.

[Nikki Giovanni]

I could articulate what makes great fried chicken. What is there in a good poem? What will we see?

[Torre]

Well, you don't get the butter and the garlic, unfortunately. I think it tells the story. You're going to hate this story. I think it does its job.

[Nikki Giovanni]

What is its job?

[Torre]

I don't know. I don't know. I saw Richard sad. A coyote got hit the other day, but it was dead, and that was sad. I couldn't help the coyote. I could write about it, I guess, but I couldn't help it. And so I'm sad about that. But I write the best poem that I can write, and when I let it go, it's the best poem that I can write, and I may come back to the same subject and write a different poem or a better poem. I don't know. Barack Obama is stepping down as our 44th president, and I was invited by EBONY magazine, and I haven't worked with EBONY for a while, so I was really thrilled. You know, I remember EBONY when the Johnsons were there, and I was really, really thrilled. And they said, would you like to write a poem? And I thought, yeah, I would. And the beginning of the poem talks about his courage, and I'm glad. Things like that. I had a lot of political differences with Barack, but where I wanted the poem to go, this is why I share. This is that. Oh, gosh, that man hanging from that tree in Alabama, Mississippi, his blood dripping, he says, I know you think. And that's why. I know you think you're killing me, but I'm growing roots. Roots will come. And what made me upset about the president is that I don't think he ever realized that he owes that blood. He owes somebody. He just didn't become president. That man that hung from that tree, his blood grew something. And that's what you answer to. That's what I answer to. That's what we all answer to that person. He didn't just die. We can't let him die. His blood had to fertilize the soil. And this is who we answer to. He's also the one that said, put on your red dress, baby.