Loading summary
Transcript421 lines
- [00:01]
Toure
Today at T Mobile, I'm joined by a special co anchor. What up everybody? It's your boy, big Snoop. D O double G. Snoop. Where can people go to find great deals? Head to T mobile.com and get four iPhone 16s with Apple Intelligence on us plus four lines for 25 bucks. That's quite a deal, Snoop. And when you switch to T mobile, you can save versus the other big guys. Comparable plans plus streaming. Respect. When we up out of here, see.
- [00:25]
Raquel Willis
How you can save on wireless and.
- [00:26]
Toure
Streaming versus the other big guys. @t mobile.com/apple intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [00:58]
Raquel Willis
I hate the burden of having to talk about my transness on the first or even the second date.
- [01:08]
Toure
Wow, you would let me take you out twice. Well, this is ideal, right? And not say, just so you know.
- [01:20]
Raquel Willis
If we met out and about. Yeah. I'm more likely to hold off longer now online. If I'm like on an app or something, I put it in my profiles. Like, I don't play that game.
- [01:34]
Toure
No, but I met you at. If I met you at bar, restaurant, whatever. Raquel's so beautiful. Can I take you out? Sure.
- [01:43]
Raquel Willis
It varies, but I'm not gonna be like, can you take me out? Sure. Oh, by the way, I'm trans. Like, I might do that, but I don't feel obligated to do that. The tour ratio okay, though? The tour ratio okay, though?
- [02:07]
Toure
That might be the best question I've ever been asked.
- [02:11]
Raquel Willis
You's a phenomenal person.
- [02:12]
Toure
I mean, you, legendary.
- [02:14]
Raquel Willis
I am a fan of you. My brother.
- [02:21]
Toure
Raquel Willis is a friend of mine and a noted trans activist and the author of a powerful memoir called the Risk it Takes to Bloom. This is a really honest conversation about what it is like to be trans in every aspect of life, from politics to her dating life. Raquel was incredibly open and I'm super grateful for her honesty. I learned a lot about what it means to be trans from her perspective. Let's get into it. It's Raquel Willis on Toure Show. How are you?
- [03:00]
Raquel Willis
I'm great.
- [03:01]
Toure
Like, how are you really?
- [03:03]
Raquel Willis
I feel. I feel like accomplished. Like I accomplished this big thing and I feel like I'm growing into a new person. It's Almost like you beat a boss in a video game and then you're on the other side and you're like, oh, wait, okay, so what's next? Like, where are we now? And that's kind of how it feels right now.
- [03:32]
Toure
You feel right now like you're growing into a new person.
- [03:35]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [03:36]
Toure
Where are you? Where do you feel that growing toward?
- [03:40]
Raquel Willis
Well, the funny thing is, I think during the process of writing the book, I turned 30 and big milestone, big milestone. And there was a lot of healing that came from processing my relationships throughout life, and particularly in romance or in family. And the desire for more intimacy is there. And I think now being like, oh, I've processed some things and I have some tools now, let's demand that shit. Like, that's here. So, like, even with, like, my mom and, like my immediate family, it's been. We don't really have enough intimacy, y'all. Like, we talk about our lives like we're in a business meeting. Like, have we accomplished this? Are you taking care of that? Not the messy stuff. And so I've been demanding more of, like, the messy stuff, like, where are we in life? And it's been a beautiful thing, and I think we're demanding that of each other now, too.
- [04:54]
Toure
From my vantage, it seems like it is a better time now to be trans publicly than it has been at any time going back 10, 20, 30 years. And yet there's still a lot of danger, a lot of vulnerability, a lot more room to grow. How do you feel just about that. You have seen tremendous change in the visibility and the ability to be visible in your lifetime. How do you feel about that?
- [05:34]
Raquel Willis
There are trade offs. I think there are trade offs of being trans now than even like 10 years ago for me.
- [05:43]
Toure
Like what?
- [05:46]
Raquel Willis
Well, when I started being open about my transness 10 to 12 years ago, there was a little bit more understanding that I was my own person. I wasn't carrying all the political baggage, all the rhetoric that exists now. So there was a weird sense of freedom then. Whereas now if I tell somebody I'm trans, you know, I think there's a lot of discussion around, oh, well, so do you really think that you should be able to play sports with, like, CIS women? Or maybe if this was like three or four years ago. Well, what do you think about Caitlyn Jenner or, oh, you're trans, like Caitlyn Jenner. And it's always like, no, not like Caitlyn.
- [06:43]
Toure
Well, you make a good point that Caitlyn is trans, but is not for trans liberation.
- [06:49]
Raquel Willis
Right.
- [06:50]
Toure
So she is not on your side of the political spectrum at all.
- [06:55]
Raquel Willis
No, I mean, the values are not aligned. Right, right. And so that's the thing about visibility that I think people forget is that, yes, it may seem like you hear more about trans people, but that doesn't mean that you hear more about the ins and outs of our experiences or what our true authentic desires are.
- [07:17]
Toure
Yeah.
- [07:19]
Raquel Willis
I actually think people hear more about trans people still as a threat. Right. Or that we are preying on the good, normal people who don't really exist and it's just not true. So, yes, there are benefits, I think, to being openly trans now and being able to be that. But then, you know, I'm not even talking about everyday life. So, like, if I'm walking down the street, I'm not always in a space where I wanna want people to know that I'm trans. Right. Like, I just wanna be in the bodega getting my chicken Caesar wrapped like anybody else. Right.
- [08:01]
Toure
When you encounter me working in a store, post office, whatever, you don't need me to know that. You're right. Like I'm. Like, I'm talking to a woman. I gave her what she needed.
- [08:15]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [08:15]
Toure
And Right. Like you don't need me to know that you're trans. You're a woman.
- [08:19]
Raquel Willis
Right. And I think that there's a. There's this idea, even with well meaning folks, that if they know that I'm trans, that I have to be a therapist for them and whatever their qualms are about my existence or their existence, or I have to be an educator, a professor, to give them the things that they don't, give them the answers and the solutions to these big kind of societal issues that in some ways have been dropped on trans people's doorstep. Like conservatives have made mountains out of things like the transports conversation, or this idea that there are millions of young trans people who are accessing surgeries.
- [09:24]
Toure
Mm.
- [09:25]
Raquel Willis
At very young age, which is not true.
- [09:26]
Toure
And drugs, very young ages, all of these things. Such a panic.
- [09:32]
Raquel Willis
They've dropped that on our doorstep because they know that it feeds confirmation bias. Right. Like it feeds the existing fear and ignorance around trans people's experiences. And while my job, like, as an activist, as a journalist in some way is to try and work through those things with people, every trans person doesn't desire to do that.
- [09:59]
Toure
No. No.
- [10:00]
Raquel Willis
And so the assumption that my identity tells you that I want to be an activist in that way, that's a problem.
- [10:10]
Toure
Is there a term that you think of or a notion that you Think of as far as I feel like you are assimilated more than some other people I see. Like, if I didn't know Raquel and I just. I would be like, oh, you know, this is a woman, and wouldn't think anything. Right. And there are other trans people who are, can I say, less assimilated. And I look at them and I am aware this is a trans person. Right. And I know there are other trans people who, like, I would never guess. Right. And is there a term or is there a discussion around that notion?
- [10:53]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, I mean, the idea of passing that we always kind of hear and that we can hear in a racial context exists.
- [11:02]
Toure
Yeah.
- [11:04]
Raquel Willis
There was a period where people were saying CIS assumed. Like people assume that you're cisgender.
- [11:11]
Toure
Is that what you want.
- [11:15]
Raquel Willis
To be assumed a cis?
- [11:17]
Toure
Yeah.
- [11:20]
Raquel Willis
Not always. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't relish sometimes in being able to partake in that.
- [11:28]
Toure
I mean, would you not say I have fully embraced or taken in my femininity in an authentic way? If I meet somebody and they assume, they don't think this is a trans person, they think this is a CIS woman.
- [11:52]
Raquel Willis
It's complicated. It's complicated because being assumed as CIS just does give you a bit more ease. So, like I was saying, you know, like, the only reason I have people, for instance, in my neighborhood who know my transness is because maybe they see me in interview.
- [12:14]
Toure
Right. In media.
- [12:14]
Raquel Willis
Right. Or in media. Right. Because I've made that choice to be open. Um, but I do think that my trans experience makes me able to see different dimensions of the world in ways that CIS people don't.
- [12:39]
Toure
For sure.
- [12:40]
Raquel Willis
It helps me understand how bullshit systems of oppression can be in a different way, especially the patriarchy. And I actually think that there's a lot that CIS people can learn from trans folks about our individual power to chart our own destinies, to shatter expectations that don't serve us because we're all saddled with them. So, like, I grew up being raised as a little boy, little black boy in Augusta, Georgia. I know the experiences I had. Being told I couldn't express certain emotions is an experience that my sis. Brethren experienced. Right, Sure, I know even now we'll stay on the emotional tub. My hesitance to express certain emotions is tied to that, but also tied to not wanting to be painted as a particular type of black woman at this point in my life.
- [13:45]
Toure
Interesting.
- [13:46]
Raquel Willis
So I can't express anger in mixed.
- [13:53]
Toure
Company because you wanna be abw.
- [13:55]
Raquel Willis
I don't wanna Be an abw angry black woman.
- [13:58]
Toure
But is some of that. Are you. Am I hearing. Cause I would be. I would probably. It would take a lot for me to express anger.
- [14:08]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, right, Because I think that's true.
- [14:11]
Toure
Because I'm taught, like as a black man, you are entering a very dangerous space if you express anger in a public space. Right. So is that lesson from the little. Can I say the little boy, Is that still in you? Or are you saying, I think every.
- [14:28]
Raquel Willis
Version of me is in me?
- [14:30]
Toure
Yeah.
- [14:31]
Raquel Willis
But I guess what I hope to offer to folks, CIS or trans or whatever, is that a lot of our lessons are intertwined, you know, so a lot of these things that we think make our experiences so dissimilar because of gender are fallacies, you know, so the boxes, the restrictions that are put on CIS men are connected to some of the boxes put on CIS women, and particularly in a black context. And then similarly for trans folks, I.
- [15:10]
Toure
Learned a lot, or I was reminded of a lot when I saw a video of a trans man on TikTok who was crying about the loneliness of being male and how men don't create friendships and intimacy or relationship intimacy the same way. And he was saying when he was a woman, you create bonds in the bathroom just in a moment, right. And that's my sister and you have that sort of stuff. And as a man it feels very lonely. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's correct. That is the way it feels to be a man. I just forgot. Cause I've been in this forever. And so I really learn something looking at this person who could say, okay, I've seen the other side and it is different. It doesn't have to be this way. Do you think that there is a lesson that you have for women or men now that you can say like, well, I've seen the other side. Seen both sides.
- [16:16]
Raquel Willis
Uh huh. You mean about what in particular?
- [16:24]
Toure
Anything.
- [16:25]
Raquel Willis
Anything, anything. Well, I mean, I think that we all need to be liberated from these gender expectations. And so I think that maybe that's the lesson that bounds all of us maybe is. And I know in a feminist context, right, there's. I know the shorthand is like, masculinity, evil, men, evil. I think we often lose a lot of nuance there. I think in terms of black feminism, there has always been an acknowledgement that black men and black boys and black masculine folks bear the brunt of their own particular issues within a white supremacist patriarchy. Right. Even though the incels and the male studies dudes don't want you to know that black feminists have been thinking of those things. They have. That's actually been a huge gripe with the larger kind of white feminist paradigm. Um, but I think the lesson is that these gendered expectations stifle all of us in so many ways. So that emotional component I was talking about with men and boys and them not being able to receive affection or softness without betraying their essence, I think that that's connected to women and girls who are told they can't be strong, brilliant, independent, capable leaders. Right. Or chart their own destinies without being hitched to the next random dude on the street. Right. And then, of course, for queer, trans and non binary folks, it's like we're often dealing with some mixture of all of that in some way, but it's all connected. It's all about giving us all the freedom to uniquely be the unique drivers of our destinies.
- [18:46]
Toure
You transitioned in college. Let's talk about, or can you talk about some of the thoughts and feelings that made you say no? No. Right. Cause you're on the phone with somebody, with your friend, when you're like, I think I'm a woman. I am a woman.
- [19:03]
Raquel Willis
My boyfriend at the time.
- [19:04]
Toure
Yeah. I mean, what, you know, I know other folks I've talked to have said, you know, they feel and they know I am that that's who I am. What was that?
- [19:20]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, well, I struggle with the word transition as we use it. Right. I think we use transition as like. Well, that was the turning point. Like the. And I think it's not just one light switch that flips on. I think there are different ones that flip on along the way. So, like, for instance, understanding that I was queer or gender non conforming as a kid, that I was different, at least was a light switch. Right. Understanding in that moment that you're speaking to that, oh, I'm a woman is its own light switch. Understanding. Maybe a year or so later, oh, this is the type of body that I want to strive for, is its own kind of light switch. And there are different light switches that happen along the way. I think we often collapse it all into one thing.
- [20:17]
Toure
Yeah.
- [20:18]
Raquel Willis
In that particular woman, in that particular woman, in that particular moment, um, as I was writing, I wanted to just be candid about the fact that I didn't always know that I was a woman in the sense that I'm a woman now.
- [20:39]
Toure
Okay.
- [20:40]
Raquel Willis
Because to be quite frank, I didn't know those possibilities existed when I was a kid. I know I would lay Awake at night praying to God that I would wake up as a girl, really. But there was no equipment for me to understand. Oh, that's transness. Right. I didn't have the tools, the language to understand that or the access to understand that.
- [21:07]
Toure
And the level of visibility in the 90s, right. Was not very.
- [21:11]
Raquel Willis
It wasn't really there.
- [21:13]
Toure
So who would you even be connecting your dreams to?
- [21:16]
Raquel Willis
Right, exactly. So that revelation for me in that moment to my partner at the time was, I now have known trans people. I've now been in gender studies, I've been in college, I've been performing in drag. At that point in the story, I have a little bit more to go on to understand. Oh, I'm a woman and I want to embark on a transition because I think that that's going to fulfill me.
- [21:57]
Toure
That's my real self.
- [21:59]
Raquel Willis
That's my real self.
- [22:00]
Toure
Is it coming from.
- [22:02]
Raquel Willis
And sometimes it's trial and error. It can be like anything else. I think a lot of folks who are not trans up until maybe this point in the discourse, like where we are currently, there hasn't been space for that kind of nuance. So I couldn't have written this book years ago. Years ago.
- [22:28]
Toure
Maybe you'll reject this binary, but for you, was it coming more from the heart or the head? Was it your thoughts about you yourself or your feelings about yourself?
- [22:43]
Raquel Willis
I think the feelings came first and then the mind had to catch up because there was always something about being logical. And I talk about this with my therapist all the time. Right. Like growing up in my Southern Catholic black family, traditional black family, even to come out as queer, there had to be. I had to have my evidence in place. I had to be logical about it. I had to be able to anticipate, okay, well, what is going to be thrown at me to kind of chip away at what I'm saying about my queerness? The Bible, what's logical scientifically? Because at that time people were still saying, well, animals aren't gay, which we know is bullshit. They're very gay.
- [23:34]
Toure
Right, right. For sure.
- [23:35]
Raquel Willis
Actually, I had to be able to anticipate, oh well, Africa, there's no gays in Africa also, right? There's no queer people in Africa.
- [23:47]
Toure
It's a Euro thing, it's a white thing. It's cause you went to college, Right.
- [23:52]
Raquel Willis
But then being Catholic, you know, I'm contending with the Catholic Church. So I was stealing my parents religious texts and my dad had a master's in psychology. I stole his dsm. I was like, well, this Shit ain't gonna help me. Not as a trans person, no. So I had to have my evidence so that I could make as logical as an argument as possible, at least for my dad, to try and even understand what I was saying or going through.
- [24:28]
Toure
Are you there with your dad?
- [24:32]
Raquel Willis
I don't know. So my dad passed away when I was 19. This was actually one of the catalysts for me to really take my gender seriously in a different way. And with my dad, I think I knew, or at least I hoped, that because he was an expert in psychology and a professor in it, that that would override his own personal issues with queerness. And it didn't?
- [25:13]
Toure
No.
- [25:14]
Raquel Willis
No, it didn't.
- [25:15]
Toure
He's not a psychologist at home.
- [25:17]
Raquel Willis
Right. And this is how deep these gendered restrictions are, especially in the black community. You know, there is a particular relationship that we all have with gender. But when I'm thinking about my father and what it meant for him to be a black man who was born in the 50s, you know, had this middle class upbringing that he crafted with my mom, there was no imagination from him of me living openly as queer and being respected, much less trans.
- [26:01]
Toure
Mm, mm. Tweet. You come out to yourself, talk about the learning process in terms of the expression of femininity, because you're identifying. I feel it in my heart. I know intellectually that's who I really am to fulfill, right? Not transition, to change, but fulfill who I really am. But we see, especially in New York, we see lots of people at different. Different points in their journey. Some people don't have it all together, and some people do have it all right? I mean, like, you come in, you look fantastic. The makeup is great, you know, the hair, everything looks great.
- [26:46]
Raquel Willis
What makeup you.
- [26:48]
Toure
But I mean, like, in 20 years, you're not gonna look back on this photograph, go, oh, my God, what was it? But I'm sure there's a point you look back on. You're like, she was not fully educated in how to put it all together, right? So talk about your. Like, is there a point where you're studying other women to understand how to best, you know, put out your femininity?
- [27:16]
Raquel Willis
Interesting. That's a good question. Thank you. I think how I want to approach this is I don't tie my femininity up fully in how I look, Right? So there is an essence piece for me, and there's like an expression piece for me, and then there's an aesthetic piece. And I think the expression and the aesthetic piece sometimes commingle, but not always. So when I think about the essence, I think my feminine essence has always been there, which is why I was bullied as a kid, called gay, called sissy, told I was just like a.
- [28:05]
Toure
Girl and thought that you were gay.
- [28:08]
Raquel Willis
And thought that I was gay, because that was the only language I had access to. Well, if they're calling me this, and I know I'm different, it must be this. Oh, and I know I like boys, so that must be a thing. So that must be it. The expression piece, I guess, can be tied to the essence piece, too, because I think femininity can come through in mannerisms.
- [28:33]
Toure
Absolutely.
- [28:34]
Raquel Willis
Behavior and all that stuff which was there for me, you know, what people would have called flamboyant in another version of myself. Um, and I think the aesthetic piece is something that. I mean, to go back to your frame. When I look back at images of me at a different point in my transition and before. Yeah. I mean, I think I can be. I can feel like, oh, it's a little cringe. It's giving cringe. But, you know, I think to level the playing field, I think there are plenty of CIS people who look back at images and they're like, what are we doing?
- [29:22]
Toure
And part of what I'm. Part of what? I mean, I think there's a lot to learn to become a woman.
- [29:29]
Raquel Willis
Right.
- [29:29]
Toure
In modern society. I mean, maybe I'm just ignorant of it, but, like, I'm like, I don't think there's a lot to learn. If you want to come over or if you fulfill who you are in becoming male, it's not a ton of stuff. You have to learn the same way that if you are. No, I am a woman. There's a lot to learn.
- [29:52]
Raquel Willis
There can be a lot. But I think femininity is not monolithic. Right.
- [29:57]
Toure
Of course.
- [29:58]
Raquel Willis
So for me, coming out of a drag experience. Cause there was kind of that gray period.
- [30:06]
Toure
So that's me studying and pretending and wearing it.
- [30:11]
Raquel Willis
But I didn't know I was doing that. Right. Because at that point, it was like, well, this is fun. This is performance. And I had to figure out, oh, well, what is performance and what is just me? And why do I enjoy this? And why do I not want to de drag after I get off the stage?
- [30:31]
Toure
I want to live in this.
- [30:32]
Raquel Willis
I want to live in this. I want to be this. Right. And not necessarily be a spectacle, because that's a different thing.
- [30:41]
Toure
Yeah.
- [30:43]
Raquel Willis
I just want to be honored in my femininity. Have it seen, recognized, acknowledged, acknowledged. And it was a journey. But you Know, it's. My relationship to femininity has shifted a lot. I mean, to be a black trans woman who mostly wears her natural hair, you know, I might wear a unit or two every now and then, but, like, as a black woman and a trans woman who mostly wears her natural hair, that's a statement to me. That's kind of like, I'm woman enough. Right. You can see my woman without me having to do everything else. Right. I might wear lash for an event or something like that, but I'm not going out, you know, doing that every day. Right. And so that's what fulfills me. And I say that because there are plenty of women, trans and cis, right. Who will not leave the house without what we call a gilda on a full wig on. It's the old school word, gilda, for like, you know, the wigilda who? Gilda who?
- [32:00]
Toure
Gilda Radner.
- [32:02]
Raquel Willis
Oh, is that what that is?
- [32:03]
Toure
I have no idea. I don't know. You say gilda, I'm like, gilda must be a person. I have no idea. I don't know. The only Gilda I know of. I don't know.
- [32:13]
Raquel Willis
Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I.
- [32:15]
Toure
There must be somebody listening who's like, he's stupid. He does not know what he's talking about.
- [32:19]
Raquel Willis
Well, now I'm like, is there, like, a problematic origin that I didn't know maybe?
- [32:23]
Toure
No, no.
- [32:24]
Raquel Willis
So we'll stick with wig. But.
- [32:28]
Toure
You'Re funny.
- [32:29]
Raquel Willis
But, you know, without the wig whipped and the lashes on, I mean, I walk around New York and see high school girls, like, wearing, you know, a wig and a full beat and eyelashes. Right. And so. And that's a whole nother conversation. But I think with femininity, there's. It's kind of flawed for us to be like, femininity is like the gender expression that's of adornment, and it's always adding something. It's always augmentation versus masculinity, which we say is raw, is more raw and organic. And that's not necessarily true. Like, men put on all the time for each other, right. Whether it's deepening their voices, whether it's staying in the gym 15 hours a day.
- [33:27]
Toure
You know, muscles are makeup for men, right. When we go work out. But.
- [33:32]
Raquel Willis
And beards, you know, and, you know.
- [33:35]
Toure
She puts on makeup, and that's a different thing.
- [33:37]
Raquel Willis
So, like, femininity isn't the only gender experience or expression that can be fueled by affectation, for sure. That's. I guess that's what I'm sharing For sure.
- [33:51]
Toure
Who. So when you're in your 20s and you're growing into this, who are some of the people you looked up to? RuPaul, you said, was somebody you were able to look up to. Was Laverne Cox. Somebody that you were able. Who were some of the folks who you were, like, she or he are doing it. Right. And I like what they're doing. I'm inspired by them.
- [34:22]
Raquel Willis
Right. Well, I'll circle back. Cause I think when I was a kid in the 90s and, like, early 2000s, I knew of RuPaul because I remember seeing RuPaul on TV and, like, all these things, and he was one.
- [34:41]
Toure
Of the first fan. He was right. The first, like, nationally famous, openly, like, queer, black drag queen.
- [34:48]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. And one of the only examples that the black community had that wasn't, like, a CIS straight man making a mockery of queerness. Right. Cause, like, my earliest memories beyond RuPaul are like, what, In Living Color and men on film.
- [35:16]
Toure
Mm.
- [35:17]
Raquel Willis
Like that. Or Martin Ashenane.
- [35:23]
Toure
You know, like, anytime a black man is on TV in a dress, it's comedy, it's laughter, it's comedy. He's lesser, he's making fun of.
- [35:34]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. I mean, even, you know, let Katt Williams tell it. Right. Like, that's the worst thing that a black comedian could be asked is to.
- [35:44]
Toure
You're emasculated.
- [35:45]
Raquel Willis
When you put on a dress, you're emasculated. And while I think that there's some merit in that because of how basic our society can be, I also think that we just have to be a bit more careful about how we talk about that, because that is actually some people's real experiences.
- [36:07]
Toure
That message redounds to young you.
- [36:10]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [36:11]
Toure
Still figuring the world out that you're.
- [36:13]
Raquel Willis
Nothing but a joke. And that coupled with the bullying I experienced, that it's also like that I'm not real. So I think. And this is my first time really thinking about this in a long time, but I think as a young kid, being told I was queer or feminine, there was always a sense of, well, maybe you'll grow out of it, wherever you pick that up from. And it's like, I didn't pick this up from anything.
- [36:46]
Toure
There's this notion that goes around now about social contagion. Right. That, like, lots of young people are trans or queer because lots of other young people are, and they get attention for it and they making. I don't think that's what's happening.
- [37:06]
Raquel Willis
That's not what happened. That's not what's happening. But I think to your point, by the time I got to college and I was in my 20s, well, starting to be in my 20s, well, RuPaul had circled back around and had a resurgence because drag race became a thing. But I was hesitant to openly like drag race and pay attention to it because I went through a period where I didn't want to be that kind of gay. So that's a whole nother thing.
- [37:37]
Toure
Okay.
- [37:39]
Raquel Willis
But when I graduated from college, and by that point, of course, I understood my transness, I had started hormone replacement therapy, changed my name and gender legally, so that by the time I graduated, my diploma reflected everything. Cause I was like, if I'm gonna have a job, I gotta change everything over as quickly as possible.
- [38:02]
Toure
Wow.
- [38:04]
Raquel Willis
I graduated from the University of Georgia two months before Orange is the New Black premiered.
- [38:10]
Toure
Okay.
- [38:11]
Raquel Willis
And this was, like, about nine months before Janet Mock released Redefining Realness. And I think people Forget, because I'm 32, they think, oh, well, you've always seen the visibility era. But no, my first few years, I was in, like, for lack of a better term, a no man's land. Right. Of trans representation in that way. And I really did not see a future where I could be open as trans and have a career in journalism. So I wasn't out in my first job. I was a newspaper reporter in Monroe, Georgia, even smaller than Augusta, Georgia, where I'm from. And I was not out in that year. And some change that I was there. As queer or trans, do you have.
- [39:07]
Toure
To be out to the people you work with?
- [39:13]
Raquel Willis
I don't think you do, no. I don't think you have to be out. I think. But I don't know how you.
- [39:32]
Toure
Live.
- [39:33]
Raquel Willis
Without the fear of being outed.
- [39:35]
Toure
For sure. For sure.
- [39:37]
Raquel Willis
Because that's different. Like, at least if you're out, you know the stakes. Nobody can say anything, and nobody can say anything, hopefully. And if they do say something, well, hopefully you'll figure out how to dodge whatever BS is coming your way. But if you aren't out and it gets found out, there could be consequences.
- [40:04]
Toure
For sure. For sure.
- [40:07]
Raquel Willis
So. And then, not to mention the microaggressions. Right. I mean, I remember I was probably a few weeks into working at this first job I was talking about where I wasn't out, and one of my co workers, this older white man, made some joke about trannies. And I was like, I don't think we can use that language anymore.
- [40:40]
Toure
That's what you said.
- [40:41]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, but it was, like, so awkward.
- [40:47]
Toure
It would Be so rare at that time for somebody to say, hey, I don't think you should make fun of that group of people.
- [40:55]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [40:56]
Toure
Now, I think some cis people would say, that's not funny.
- [41:00]
Raquel Willis
Right.
- [41:01]
Toure
But 20 years ago, who would say.
- [41:04]
Raquel Willis
20, 10 years ago.
- [41:06]
Toure
That's not funny.
- [41:06]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [41:07]
Toure
Who would say that?
- [41:08]
Raquel Willis
There was another instance where. So our publisher for the newspaper, the big boss, we had a woman come in who was trying to find information on something at our front desk. I was the only woman and the only person of color on our editorial staff. But our other teams were mostly women. Like our marketing and sales team, circulation, even. But this woman came in. She had a super deep voice. Like, super deep. And I was like, you know, no, she might be one of the girls. I don't know.
- [41:45]
Toure
Bring your trans radar, right? It'd be trans dar. Gaydar. What is it?
- [41:50]
Raquel Willis
Transdar.
- [41:50]
Toure
Your transdar goes off of, like, she might be. But you're saying what? She might be one of the girls.
- [41:56]
Raquel Willis
That's what she might be. Who knows?
- [41:58]
Toure
Okay.
- [41:59]
Raquel Willis
I wasn't super convinced. She just had a deep voice. So it was just one thing. But the woman is, like, waiting for a group of the women to come back up to, like, bring whatever material she was asking for. My publisher and, like, two other women, they were like, did you hear her voice? Oh, my God. And they were, like, giggling about how deep this woman's voice was.
- [42:29]
Toure
Ooh.
- [42:30]
Raquel Willis
And I'm like. I feel like I'm like, I guess in, like, the Jordan pill universe version of, like, you know, a stealth trans workplace horror film, I guess, you know?
- [42:48]
Toure
But it's the big boss.
- [42:49]
Raquel Willis
But it's the big boss.
- [42:50]
Toure
I don't want to insult him, can't say anything, embarrass him.
- [42:53]
Raquel Willis
And this was a woman.
- [42:55]
Toure
Her.
- [42:55]
Raquel Willis
This was a white blonde woman.
- [42:57]
Toure
It was a man. Oh, my God.
- [42:59]
Raquel Willis
White blonde woman, you know?
- [43:02]
Toure
Mm. She's joining in, making fun of this.
- [43:06]
Raquel Willis
Random woman's voice who came to get information from us in the workplace.
- [43:14]
Toure
But you had to let it go.
- [43:15]
Raquel Willis
Had to let it go. There's a point I talk about in the book where my boss is like, you cover this drag show that's happening. And I'm, like, scared shitless. Cause I'm like, what is he playing in my face? You know, like, does he know he's.
- [43:35]
Toure
Not out, but he's playing with this. So you're. You're like, oh.
- [43:39]
Raquel Willis
But part of it is, like, he gave me the lifestyle beat because I'm a woman. And he's like, well, you're you love this human interest stuff. You don't want to do this politics, whatever coverage. So I was like, okay, well, maybe it's just more of the misogyny. Maybe he's not clocking anything. After I report on the story, I went and took photos, everything. And I'm like, cycling through the photos. Another woman from our team comes into the room. She's like, oh, my God, these photos. She calls a bunch of the other women over. They're like, looking over my shoulder at the photos of these drag performers. She's like, that one doesn't even look like a man. And it's just like all of this, like, problematic language. And I'm like, well, maybe they really don't know that I'm trans, because the way that they talk about this stuff, I'm getting this window in. I imagine it's like if a person of color passes as white and they hear what white people say when people, you know, are of color aren't in the room, like, that is what it feels like.
- [45:09]
Toure
Who do you date now? She's drinking.
- [45:18]
Raquel Willis
Oh, my God.
- [45:20]
Toure
I'm not asking for specific names of individuals. That would be ridiculous.
- [45:29]
Raquel Willis
I mostly date men and masculine folks. CIS men, CIS men, trans men. My longest relationships have been with trans masculine folks.
- [45:41]
Toure
Trans masculine. What is. What is. What do you mean by. You mean? That's what I. That's what I said. That's what I meant when I said trans. Mention transmasculine.
- [45:51]
Raquel Willis
So trans masculine as an umbrella that can include trans men and folks who are non binary. You know, so maybe not male identified, but maybe still more masculine of sexual.
- [46:07]
Toure
Non binary, but masculine presenting usually. Okay. Okay.
- [46:13]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. So there I think I've most dated CIS men. CIS straight men.
- [46:22]
Toure
Most of the men you've dated. Most of the people you've dated have been CIS men.
- [46:26]
Raquel Willis
Mm. And it's difficult. I mean, on so many levels.
- [46:33]
Toure
CIS straight men.
- [46:34]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [46:35]
Toure
Or CIS gay men.
- [46:36]
Raquel Willis
Straight men. Um, I think this is always interesting to people, but typically I don't encounter queer men who like queer men. Don't approach me. And I'm using queer as an umbrella. Probably more to speak to bisexual or pansexual men.
- [47:02]
Toure
Are you worried about CIS straight men fetishizing you sometimes or exoticizing you sometimes?
- [47:15]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, I think I worried more about that before, to be frank. Bottom surgery? Cause I think that you did that. I talk about it in the book. Yes. Yeah. Which is why I'm comfortable talking about surgery now.
- [47:35]
Toure
You said you worry about it more now.
- [47:39]
Raquel Willis
No, I worried about it more Then, like, before surgery.
- [47:43]
Toure
Okay.
- [47:44]
Raquel Willis
Cause, like, I think a lot of CIS men who have a thing for trans women.
- [47:55]
Toure
Yeah.
- [47:55]
Raquel Willis
They tend to have a thing for trans women that have a particular type of body. They tend to want to date a woman who has a penis, for instance. Right. So if you don't, which is my experience now, it's. I mean, I've dated a guy who was like, well, why would you have surgery? That's like, you know? Cause, like, to some of them, they're like, that's what makes you you. Is that you're a woman with something extra.
- [48:30]
Toure
Mm.
- [48:31]
Raquel Willis
Which is really uncomfortable.
- [48:33]
Toure
Yeah.
- [48:34]
Raquel Willis
For me. Um, and I think now dating Cishet men, that's not as much of a problem on this side of things. But, you know, there are Cishet men who will be like, oh, well, you can't have kids, so this can't be a real thing.
- [48:57]
Toure
Or does that hurt?
- [49:00]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. Oh, it absolutely hurts. Because that is an experience I desire to have that I will never have, you know?
- [49:14]
Toure
You think about adopting.
- [49:16]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, I do. I think the other thing with CIS men is that I'm often dealing with their insecurities. So, like, CIS men who are like, well, how could I introduce you to my family or the people in my life? Right. Because even though I'm a woman, right. Because of my journey, you know, they're so afraid of being labeled as gay or being labeled as not, you know, a real man.
- [49:48]
Toure
Mostly black men.
- [49:50]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, mostly.
- [49:51]
Toure
Are you, like, that's your type? I want black men or white men, too. Or.
- [49:58]
Raquel Willis
I've dated folks across races and ethnicities. I think, to be frank, there's something about never fully receiving the love that I know I deserve from black men that will always be a part of what I desire.
- [50:20]
Toure
Okay. That continues to be part of your quest as a person who's dating, that you haven't received the love you deserve from black people.
- [50:29]
Raquel Willis
I think that can be a part of it. Yeah. So I would say I prefer a black.
- [50:34]
Toure
Oh, you want that partner. Fulfilled partner. I want a black person, a black male. That hasn't happened. I'm still holding out for that.
- [50:42]
Raquel Willis
No, I don't wanna say it like that, but I think the desire for this kind of idea of, like, black love. There is something that I have that I. And I think a lot of us, right, have to disentangle about maybe what we're trying to prove. You know, we're being real vulnerable. But I think that that's real. Right. I think that can be tied up a lot of times in this idea of a fantasy relationship.
- [51:17]
Toure
I know being trans is to be vulnerable. Right. You are constantly vigilant about, you know, the wrong person could get the wrong impression or just anything. Right. You're constantly vulnerable. So are there specific places where you are open to meeting men? Where. Okay, I'm safe here at this bar, at this sort of spot, you know, these sort of parties where I can.
- [51:48]
Raquel Willis
Not really, no. I think I feel like I don't have a defined dating pool, for instance. So, like, if I'm in a straight space, I'm dealing with the threat of. Yeah. Men talk to me all the time, approach me all the time, ask for my number all the time. But there's like a ticking clock of when we have to have the discussion.
- [52:16]
Toure
Yeah. How long is that?
- [52:18]
Raquel Willis
How long is that? Um, I still appreciate deeper into the dating process, so I would say I hate the burden of having to talk about my transness on the first or even the second date.
- [52:45]
Toure
Wow. You would let me take you out twice.
- [52:50]
Raquel Willis
Well, this is ideal.
- [52:51]
Toure
Right. And not, say. Just so you know, if we met out and about.
- [53:00]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. I'm more likely to hold off longer now online, if I'm, like, on an app or something, I put it in my profiles. Like, I don't play that game.
- [53:11]
Toure
No, but I met you at. If I met you at a bar, restaurant, whatever. Raquel's so beautiful. Can I take you out? Sure.
- [53:20]
Raquel Willis
It varies, but I'm not gonna be like, can you take me out? Sure. Oh, by the way, I'm trans. Like, I might do that, but I don't feel obligated to do that all the time.
- [53:38]
Toure
It's interesting that you say you don't feel obligated to do it. That's interesting.
- [53:46]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. I mean, but it's also different now, I think, being so visible.
- [53:52]
Toure
Yes, for sure.
- [53:53]
Raquel Willis
Right.
- [53:54]
Toure
But, you know, everybody you meet does not know who you are. Right?
- [54:00]
Raquel Willis
That's true.
- [54:01]
Toure
Some people know. I saw her on television, whatever, her book, whatever. But you surely meet a lot of people who, you know, think you're very attractive and don't know anything but the person they see in front of them.
- [54:14]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. I think the stakes feel different if we're gonna hook up for sure.
- [54:24]
Toure
If we're gonna kiss.
- [54:26]
Raquel Willis
No.
- [54:30]
Toure
What do you mean, no?
- [54:33]
Raquel Willis
Uh, no, I don't think. I don't. I don't feel obligated necessarily. If we're gonna kiss.
- [54:41]
Toure
You would make out with a man who does not know that you're trans.
- [54:47]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [54:52]
Toure
Part of the thought for me is the ramping danger for you, which obviously you are aware of, but I just want to unmask, like, that's part of what I'm wondering about that, you know, I asked you for your number and, you know, you let me know, like, just so you know, like, oh, me, male. I have invested this much time and energy. That's not. I do or don't want to go down that road. Fine. I took her out on two dates and I made out with her. And then she said, oh, by the way, check out my memoir. I'm actually. And you know better than me. At that moment, you are in danger. He might say, I understand. It's wonderful. It's not for me. Or he might say, God damn it. Are you fucking kidding me? I am angered now because I have been tricked or emasculated or something. Right.
- [55:46]
Raquel Willis
But that could happen at any point in the process.
- [55:48]
Toure
100%.
- [55:50]
Raquel Willis
So I guess.
- [55:51]
Toure
Are you not more vulnerable when he did what he thought he was doing with a CIS woman, and then he finds out he's not, and then you're dealing with him. Embarrassed, ashamed, whatever.
- [56:09]
Raquel Willis
I guess what I think about with this question is when guys hit on me on the street, which happens regularly.
- [56:19]
Toure
Sure.
- [56:23]
Raquel Willis
I'm never going to be like, oh, I'm trans.
- [56:27]
Toure
Not on the street.
- [56:29]
Raquel Willis
Not on the street.
- [56:30]
Toure
No, no, of course not.
- [56:33]
Raquel Willis
Okay.
- [56:33]
Toure
But you wouldn't take my number if I met you on the street. Like, we gotta be in a space. Right. I mean, that is very.
- [56:40]
Raquel Willis
That's not true.
- [56:42]
Toure
Okay.
- [56:43]
Raquel Willis
No. And I mean, whether I'm interested or not, the stakes are we might have to just exchange numbers so I can get you out of my face.
- [56:54]
Toure
For sure. For sure.
- [56:56]
Raquel Willis
Like, that is a real thing. As a woman.
- [56:58]
Toure
For sure.
- [57:01]
Raquel Willis
I guess the kissing thing, it's just. I don't know if it's because I'm queer, bi plus. And the gender thing doesn't resonate as much for me or because I've known. I would say the vast majority of the cishet men I've dated did not know that they were open to dating a woman like me until we met.
- [57:41]
Toure
Mm, interesting.
- [57:43]
Raquel Willis
Um, but.
- [57:48]
Toure
So you're not. Let's. I wanna dive deeper. They. They. You're the first trans woman they're talking to.
- [57:55]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [57:56]
Toure
So you're like, I don't need to tell.
- [57:58]
Raquel Willis
And even some of the trans men that I've dated, I'm the first trans woman they've talked to.
- [58:05]
Toure
And you're. Because you've experienced men getting to know you and then realizing, oh, this is cool. Like, I am comfortable on this road where I wouldn't have thought before, so I don't have to tell you because you might like it.
- [58:26]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. But I mean. And I have a chapter in the book where I kind of talk about the kind of lopsided way we look at disclosure of trans identity. There are people who are more invested in me talking about being trans than they are about us talking about sexual health status.
- [58:53]
Toure
Sure.
- [58:54]
Raquel Willis
Right. Or me asking somebody if they have a record. Right. You ever killed somebody, you know? Or you got a gun on you? Right. Now, you gotta know. Or how many children you got?
- [59:13]
Toure
You ever hit your wife?
- [59:15]
Raquel Willis
You know? Right. Have you ever been abusive? So this obsession with me sharing my transness.
- [59:25]
Toure
Oh, that. The world wants you to tell that, but there are all sorts of things.
- [59:31]
Raquel Willis
That we could have a conversation about.
- [59:33]
Toure
Should probably be telling you. I'm on probation.
- [59:36]
Raquel Willis
Right.
- [59:37]
Toure
Not gonna. He's not gonna tell you that on date one, I have a kid. Right. He's probably not gonna. Right.
- [59:43]
Raquel Willis
He may or may not. I have guys who give me their number, and then they like, oh, I got a newborn in the background. Newborn.
- [59:52]
Toure
I'm sure there's guys who.
- [59:53]
Raquel Willis
And then told me that me telling him that I'm trans is the same as him telling me he has a newborn in the background.
- [60:01]
Toure
Or guys hitting on you who are married.
- [60:04]
Raquel Willis
Who are married and didn't tell you.
- [60:07]
Toure
So. Okay. Okay. All right. So there's all sorts of things that anybody might be hiding from a person who's interested in them. So we are saying.
- [60:18]
Raquel Willis
I don't think that it's hiding because. Yeah, I don't think that it's hiding. I'm not hiding my transness. I just am demanding an experience where I get to be more than just that one thing. Because society has made you so ignorant.
- [60:42]
Toure
Hiding has a negative connotation, right?
- [60:45]
Raquel Willis
I think so.
- [60:46]
Toure
And you are not hiding, obviously, and you are extraordinarily public about it, but if I meet you as a stranger at a bar, you are not being public about it. And to loop back, you are very. What did we say? CIS adjacent. What did we say?
- [61:04]
Raquel Willis
Assumed.
- [61:05]
Toure
Cis. Assumed. Right. I mean, like, if I met you as a stranger, it would never occur to me. Right.
- [61:14]
Raquel Willis
But I also think that there is a society that we need to be working towards where men, for instance, create an environment and experience safe enough for someone to tell them their truth.
- [61:51]
Toure
Mm.
- [61:53]
Raquel Willis
Because the problem here isn't that I don't know when or what the stakes are of me telling you that I'm trans. It's that it's so normalized for you to react any kind of way violently and in insecurity towards me because of that truth? And when on my book tour, someone was asking me this, like, well, what is it like for you to, you know, date and, like, tell men that you're trans? And it made me think of so many of the black trans women who. Black trans women who get murdered, right. Or experience violence. It's often happening in a domestic violence situation or intimate partner violence situation. It's not always from strangers. Sometimes it's from men who have known their truth and then their insecurity caught up with them. But what am I, as a black trans woman, supposed to do with a society that was not made for me that tells me I shouldn't be loved or experience pleasure or any of these things? What am I supposed to do in that? Am I supposed to just not have experiences? Isolate myself? No, you know, of course you deserve. Or am I just gonna have to take risks and figure out this journey along the way of, like, what it's gonna look like to find the love and the joy and the pleasure that I deserve?
- [63:45]
Toure
I mean, it's interesting. Cause you're taught the dating potential pool that you're talking about or the people you've been with historically, some of them are queer, so they have a similar, let's say, openness around gender, Right, that you have sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. Not always as opposed to. I would imagine, as opposed to CIS men. CIS straight men who see it extremely binary. And, like, the notion of gender being fluid is sort of like, what? Like, what are you talking about? And so some of the men you're meeting are like, hey, gender's a construct. Like, let's go.
- [64:31]
Raquel Willis
Right?
- [64:31]
Toure
And some of them are like, what are you talking about?
- [64:34]
Raquel Willis
Mm.
- [64:35]
Toure
Right.
- [64:36]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, Cishet man, as much as I love to rag on CIS straight men, they aren't a monolith. And I've met, you know, great cishet men, right? And so if we get to a point, then it just becomes about the regular relationship bullshit. Like, what. What do you want? Do you want a family? Right? Like, are you working on a PhD and you don't really have time to, like, fully be invested in this.
- [65:16]
Toure
Do you drive a bus or do you own the bus company?
- [65:19]
Raquel Willis
Well, but, I mean, that can be a thing. I also think that this is a time where, you know, black trans women. Like, I know plenty of black trans women who lead executive roles in organizations, right. Or who have a Bustling professional life. And so, you know, maybe we're in our, like, black trans, waiting to exhale moment, where it's like, where is our dating pool that can match where we are? And I think that that can be real, too.
- [66:00]
Toure
There's a lot of talk on the right, the political right, about trans women. I even think they're fully defined, making CIS people feel unsafe in the bathroom. Do you ever feel unsafe in the bathroom?
- [66:19]
Raquel Willis
No. But that's an element of privilege, right? The CIS assumed privilege.
- [66:25]
Toure
Mm.
- [66:29]
Raquel Willis
The first time I used the women's restroom was in college. I remember it was like, what was that?
- [66:35]
Toure
Like.
- [66:37]
Raquel Willis
Um, I was scared. I had used them before, but only if they were empty. But this was, like, my senior year of college. I had started dressing the way I wanted to. You know, was working on getting my name changed and everything. And I went in. It was like, in between classes, in, like, the student union or something. So it was like, a bunch of people, and it was like nothing. Nobody was paying attention to me. And it was, like, such a revelation of like, oh, I can do this, I can do this. But that's not every trans person's experience.
- [67:24]
Toure
No, of course not.
- [67:25]
Raquel Willis
Right. And so I do like to make the point that all of the boxes I've been able to check off, whether it's how I look or being CIS assumed or educational privilege or socioeconomic privilege even. I mean, we were talking about femininity earlier in this discussion and, like, how it manifests. But I think about what femininity has meant from this, like, middle class upbringing. Right. Of seeing my mom in the 90s and, like, her power suits and big rollers and, you know, like, all of that and, like, being in the south and her wearing her, like, fascinators. She just calls them hats, but they're fascinators. And, you know, like, all of that stuff, that's a particular experience, and the access to that because of class is a thing too. So that has been another one of those boxes that I've checked off, too. And what's acceptable in the amount of adornment to wear in a certain environment, too. Right. But I don't want trans women to have to check off all those boxes to be respected. Right. Like, ideally, we would live in a world where you wouldn't have to be CIS assumed to have the career that I have or to have the access to write a memoir like I have. Right. And that's what I hope I can fight for in my work.
- [69:07]
Toure
Do you hate Dave Chappelle?
- [69:11]
Raquel Willis
I don't hate Dave Chappelle.
- [69:13]
Toure
Are you mad at him?
- [69:16]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, I'm mad at him and disappointed. I think it's been said a lot, right, that he has been one of the great provocateurs on race, like, historically. And it's sad that he hung up all of those strong insights to tap into the lowest common denominator right now, which I think is looking at trans people being on the chopping block and being like, oh, okay, yeah, let's go for that. It's not actually funny anymore. I don't even actually think CIS people find it funny. Like, they're not guffawing like we were when we were watching the Chappelle Show.
- [70:13]
Toure
So bounce this idea off of you.
- [70:17]
Raquel Willis
And it's not a smart take. The smart.
- [70:21]
Toure
You thought the Andy Kaufman, Jim Carrey take was dumb.
- [70:26]
Raquel Willis
I don't remember those.
- [70:27]
Toure
The last joke, the opening joke for his last special.
- [70:32]
Raquel Willis
That he was the dreamer one.
- [70:34]
Toure
Yes. That he's sad that somebody had passed away, Somebody in his family had passed away. Somebody said, you're a big fan of Jim Carrey. I'll take you to go meet Jim Carrey. And they go to the set of the movie where he's doing Andy Kaufman. I think it was man on the Moon. I think it was called Andy. Jim is method, so you can't call him Jim, and you can't expect to interact with him as Jim. He's doing Andy all day long, and he hung out with him all day and he's like, this is like, I really wish that I could meet Jim, but I'm here with Andy and I forget the punchline. But he's like, you know, that's how I feel with trans people. And he's just making that analogy, right.
- [71:23]
Raquel Willis
That we aren't who we say we are.
- [71:24]
Toure
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what he's saying.
- [71:28]
Raquel Willis
No, I mean, he's saying that to be a trans person is, like, the ultimate form of method acting. I don't think that's where he was coming from. That's what I'm getting from it.
- [71:39]
Toure
I feel like. I mean, I think it's been four specials where there have been a significant number of jokes about trans folks. And I think, and I imagine you'll probably disagree, that he is looking at the world and seeing, like, a lot of people our age are going, what is happening in the world?
- [72:04]
Raquel Willis
How old are you?
- [72:05]
Toure
I'm 52. So me and Dave are about the same age, a lot older than you, and we're seeing the rise of visibility of trans folks. And we're saying what is going on, not necessarily pejoratively, but what is happening. Right. And I respond to it in my way. And he responds to it by making jokes where he's kind of trying to process what is going on here in the world.
- [72:37]
Raquel Willis
Yes.
- [72:40]
Toure
Talking about race at this point, he may find tame, as opposed to. This is the intellectually complicated issue that's going on now.
- [72:49]
Raquel Willis
Yes. But I don't think that the rigor is there. I don't think that he is processing. That is really not about trans people.
- [73:02]
Toure
He did a whole.
- [73:03]
Raquel Willis
It's about him and his own uncertainty or discomfort around his place in the world.
- [73:14]
Toure
Okay.
- [73:15]
Raquel Willis
And that doesn't translate for me, but I guess part of it is, like, the difference between when he was talking about race was that he wasn't really in the power position, and he doesn't seem to understand that he is in the power position when we're talking about gender.
- [73:36]
Toure
He did a whole long story joke in the closer about Daphne, who he embraced.
- [73:46]
Raquel Willis
This was the special before dreamer.
- [73:49]
Toure
Yeah. And he embraces her as a friend, and he. And even more than that, he embraces her as a comic. Right. Which. That is the highest level of compliment from him. You are a comic. I don't know. I felt like he was trying to say, I met a trans person. I embraced them, I brought them in, I tried to help them as best as I could. I don't hate.
- [74:26]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. I think he fucked up the frame.
- [74:29]
Toure
Okay.
- [74:30]
Raquel Willis
Because when he blamed the trans community as being a collection of, you know, aggrieved activists who drove Daphne to her suicide.
- [74:44]
Toure
Mm.
- [74:46]
Raquel Willis
He brought a lot of ire onto the community.
- [74:51]
Toure
That's where he really fucked it up for you.
- [74:53]
Raquel Willis
He really fucked it up because not only did he scapegoat the community for all of these varying systems of oppression, like, if you're actually in trans community, you know, suicidality is a thing. I mean, we're not even talking about specifically in the black trans community and. And for black trans men in particular, but suicidality is a thing because, yeah, it is fucking difficult to be a trans person in this world and demand to be respected and to try and get employment, you know, try to find housing, try to find healthcare, access things without having to be on the black market and on and on. And for him to reduce her suicide to this quip about trans folks online being in cahoots with council culture was fucked up, because then whenever we did want to critique his discussion of trans people, then we would get responses from CIS people online who would say, y'all are the ones that killed Daphne, not us. And, no, it's CIS people killing trans people. Overwhelmingly.
- [76:19]
Toure
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think the sports issue has been used as a tool. Right. A political tool. Because even a lot of people who are like, yeah, let them live, Let them use the bathroom they want to use, let them get hired, then they're like, oh, but sports, right? And I'm like, y'all didn't care about women's sports before, so why are you so concerned with. I don't think you're concerned with women's sports. It's completely in bad faith. But how do you feel. And what do you say when you hear those discussions about, well, what happens when we get a trans woman wanting to compete in swimming and running and basketball?
- [77:14]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. Well, I'll speak from personal experience. No one has ever, and for good reason, wanted me on any of their sports teams at any point in my transition and before. Cause I am not built that way. I'm not really athletic. Right. I do CrossFit now.
- [77:34]
Toure
Oh, good for you.
- [77:35]
Raquel Willis
But I'm not athletic. And so I share that. To say that this specter of trans women in particular as automatically good at.
- [77:47]
Toure
Sports and, well, stronger than CIS women generally.
- [77:53]
Raquel Willis
I could easily hear a petite white woman saying that about one of my black CIS sisters. Right, okay. Because there's just this mythos around trans people that we all have the same bodies. I know trans women who are short. Right. And small frame. Same.
- [78:19]
Toure
Yeah, same.
- [78:20]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, Right. I know CIS men who could never be wrestlers or any of this stuff. Right, of course, of course. So I think that we ignore the complexity of our bodies and that we don't all have that experience. The same experience. So that's the thing. I mean, the other thing I would say is that, you know, there was, I think it was like this national body on. Was it chess, that they were, like, they wanted to gender the categories or something. Because it's just getting out of hand for trans people.
- [79:04]
Toure
Chess.
- [79:06]
Raquel Willis
And so if you didn't think before that this was about reiterating these essentialist notions of gender to fucking everyone over? That should be your clue, because why are we talking about gender when it comes to a game that's largely about brain power?
- [79:27]
Toure
Right, for sure. For sure.
- [79:29]
Raquel Willis
You know, So, I mean, I also want folks to remember that the vast majority of these professional sports bodies had started to deal with the existence of trans folks, or intersex folks, before it became a political issue, and they all have their different rules and standards. Some of them, yes, need to change and have changed. But it is insulting for Bob on the street, who was never in line to qualify for anything in the Olympics, to be like, you just want to be in the Olympics. I'm like, how does this actually impact either of us? Like, for you to denounce my existence on an issue that really is not your issue is a problem. Like, I'm not even an athlete. Why am I being asked about. And this is not about you.
- [80:41]
Toure
Right.
- [80:41]
Raquel Willis
But it's like, that isn't even my experience. But as a trans person, I'm asked about it as if there aren't all these other things that I would rather us focus on.
- [80:57]
Toure
So one of the other things, and I'm sorry if folks are like, you can't keep bringing up these conservative issues, but I want to give you the chance.
- [81:04]
Raquel Willis
I know these are the big.
- [81:06]
Toure
These are the big things that people talk about, and I want to give you the chance to talk about it and to potentially arm those of us who may also encounter some of these conversations.
- [81:15]
Raquel Willis
Of course. Well, can I also just add, I think in the conversation about sports, we know it's not just trans folks put on the chopping block, but it's been folks of color put on the chopping block. I mean, I. And CIS women, you know, particularly CIS black women, like, I think about Castor Semenya from South Africa. Right. And the way that being assigned female at birth did not save her from being scrutinized and disqualified from playing a sport that gave so much to her life. Right. Added so much to her life. So it may seem like it's a trans sports thing, but it's really not. It's really talking about all of our bodies at the same time and which ones we're gonna deem acceptable or not.
- [82:10]
Toure
We touched a lot on how men react to you. Do CIS women generally tend to react to you? Black CIS women especially, do they tend to react to you as a sister, or do you find sometimes they're like, she's not really one of us?
- [82:31]
Raquel Willis
Good question. Yes. And I think overwhelmingly there is, like, a sister component. You know, rarely do I feel like I receive ire. I don't get the J.K. rowling TERF experience. You know, of course, a lot of that is because of the boxes I check off, but I don't get that. So I think it's a yes. And I think in terms of, like, social justice movement spaces, there can be a dynamic of. And this isn't Just on CIS women, Right? Cause especially when I think about black social justice movement spaces, it's like everyone at the table. But there can be a sense of, like, I don't think trans, Black, trans women, despite all of the contributions we've made to social justice, have had our leadership fully respected and acknowledged, and definitely not in the ways that, like, our CIS counterparts have. And so that hurts, you know, but if we're just talking about out and about, like, it's chill, it's cool, like, we're good.
- [84:05]
Toure
So one thing the right would say, the right loves to say now is, what is a woman? Like, that's some gotcha question. And I have an answer for that, but I want to hear. What would you say if one of these right wingers was like, so, Raquel, what is a woman?
- [84:24]
Raquel Willis
What is a woman? A woman to me, I mean, I think about my mom and my sister. I think about these powerful beings who gave me space to be myself, who are some of the most empathetic people I've ever known, the most evolved people I've ever known, the most loving people I've known, the folks that I've had the most intimate discussions and relationships with. I think about other black trans women, you know, my sisters, my friends, who I can be my most vulnerable self with.
- [85:28]
Toure
This is beautiful. But, you know, the question is, how do you define.
- [85:33]
Raquel Willis
But I think that that is different for everyone.
- [85:38]
Toure
Mm.
- [85:40]
Raquel Willis
I think we can talk about being female and assigned female at birth and having a certain type of body, but not even every CIS woman has the same amount of chromosomes or the ability to menstruate or the ability to give birth. Right. And so I don't actually think that that's a fruitful conversation. I think we can have a conversation about the boxes that we give people.
- [86:15]
Toure
It's not fruitful, it's not valuable, it's held in bad faith. But this is partly what we are getting from the right. Right? This is one of their big talking points.
- [86:24]
Raquel Willis
Well, I think with the right, it's funny because the joke is that trans people or queer people or non binary people don't know who we are. But I think the real discussion is that in this time, when to be cisgender and to be straight is not as much the default, the folks who've been able to rely on those identities don't know who they are.
- [86:59]
Toure
I mean, you clearly know who you are, right? And you accepted, did not accept the givens of the world, but were like, I could have. You could've. And that's the thing I explored and said, no, no, no. That's who I really am. I'm like, if you're trans, you are living out your dreams, you are living out who you really think you are. And there's all these people who are like, well, I wish I had been an architect, or I wish I had done this in my life, or that. Well, that trans man or woman is doing that.
- [87:34]
Raquel Willis
Yeah. I mean, the funny thing is, you know, I. There are times where I meet CIS men who. And I know it's not easy. I know the shorthand is that, you know, you're a man, you're closer in proximity to the patriarchy. It's easy for you. I know that that isn't true. I know that there's nuance there, and I know that a lot of brothers are going through it, have been going through it, have never fully been seen. And I know that it's hurtful to experience other people being seen. But I'm not the enemy. I want you to be free. And at a point, I could have been you. You know, like, I could have been you in the sense of quieting my desires, because I thought fitting all of these standards would save me or would fulfill me or would make me joyful. But that is just not true. And particularly when I think about black men, because that's a big part of your audience, right? I think about the messages that are received around masculinity in this society, but the society was not set up for you. And so, yeah, there may be moments where you get some affirmation around your masculinity or your manhood, but it's not lasting, especially if those affirmations are in those moments where you can most make other people feel smaller. So, like, trying to make me feel like I shouldn't exist or that I'm not real or valid, that's not actually your power. It might feel like it in the moment when you get your little kudos in the comments section of the shade room or like, whatever else, but at the end of the day and at the end of your life, you're probably gonna wish you related to folks in a different way, because there's a reason a lot of men are dying alone, lonely to.
- [90:21]
Toure
For me, on the question of defining woman.
- [90:26]
Raquel Willis
Defining woman.
- [90:27]
Toure
I saw a woman respond to that question. I don't know if she was CIS or trans. And she said, a person who tells you that they are a woman, that's a woman. And of course, Ben Shapiro, whoever the fuck was, like, you know, immediately redounds to biology. You know, if you die, then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The fire department comes, then, blah, blah, blah. And then I'm like, what we need to say at that point is I am talking about sociology, you are talking about biology. We are not talking about biology, I'm talking about sociology. You want to join me over here in a conversation about sociology, Then we can have that. If you can only see it in a biological lens, then we have nothing to talk about. And you're basically reducing me to what is in my body when we are all so much more than just our body.
- [91:30]
Raquel Willis
Yeah, I mean, we are. And words and definitions to an extent can be finite. And so I guess I'm just more interested in the question of what do you want? What do you want, Ben Shapiro, by asking me attention? Right. It's not a real attention and validation. And you want folks to be like, oh yeah, go, go, Ben. You're a trans person, you're normal and they're weird.
- [92:07]
Toure
Yeah.
- [92:08]
Raquel Willis
It's just. It's just an outgrowth of high school bullying bullshit, you know?
- [92:17]
Toure
Yeah.
- [92:18]
Raquel Willis
It doesn't move us anywhere. And I think that that's the point. Right. It's like the Ben Shapiro's of the world don't want us to progress. They want us to stay exactly where we are now. Maybe go make America great again and go a little bit, go back a few decades. Cause we reached our peak in the 50s, apparently.
- [92:39]
Toure
The book is called the Risk It Takes to Bloom. What is the risk that it takes to bloom?
- [92:50]
Raquel Willis
The risk comes from confronting a difficult moment in life or a difficult dynamic in life and making the choice to see if there's something better on the other side. So the risks for me throughout my life have been taking the risk to come out as gay at 14 to my parents, which was one of the best things I had ever done up until that point, because it freed me up to actually make real friends and breathe a little bit more and let go of some of their expectations. It was the risk to perform in drag. If I hadn't taken that risk, I wouldn't have deepened my understanding of my experience with gender. I wouldn't have found queer and trans community for the first time and realized how important that was to sustaining myself. Taking the risk to embrace my womanhood. I wouldn't have had a deeper relationship with my family than ever before. I mean, just for a second, like, I think about my mom, like every now and then we'll be. She'll ask me, she's like, well, did you Think your life would be this way, you know, or we'll talk about, like, I couldn't imagine having never owned my truth. We would not have the relationship that we have. If I hadn't, I would be a miserable person. I would not be in this room right now and not be talking to you, the icon that you are, without having taken those risks. Right. I wouldn't have written that book.
- [94:47]
Toure
Yeah.
- [94:48]
Raquel Willis
I might have written a book, but it wouldn't have been as real as that one is. So it's those things. And even beyond the identity pieces, taking the risk to move away from Georgia to see what else is out there. Taking the risk to do other things in my career, you know, to embrace social justice and storytelling, which also 10 years ago, was not a thing you could really do, you know?
- [95:23]
Toure
Yeah. So did you choose the name Raquel?
- [95:27]
Raquel Willis
I did.
- [95:28]
Toure
Why?
- [95:30]
Raquel Willis
Um, I wish there was, like, a super deep reason, but I like the way it sounded. I wanted a name that wasn't as common.
- [95:43]
Toure
Mm.
- [95:46]
Raquel Willis
I wanted a name that spoke to a nickname that I talk about in the book. Yeah. And it just kind of worked. But I remember the process. I was very methodical about it. And I was, like, looking at the baby names and like, oh, well, what were the baby names in 1991? And, you know, if I had had this different life and writing them all down on a notebook and like, well, which one do I like? Writing in print or in cursing?
- [96:16]
Toure
Was there a number two?
- [96:18]
Raquel Willis
Was there number two?
- [96:20]
Toure
Just? Just.
- [96:21]
Raquel Willis
I don't think at that time there was, but I think along the way, I've been like, oh, I think Jasmine would have been a cute name.
- [96:30]
Toure
For sure. For sure. You wonder what the name does. And I think my wife said that she was. I think she once said she was almost named Tiffany. And I just wonder, like, how would you be if you were going around the world? Like, would you be different if you were going around the world being called Jasmine, if not Raquel?
- [96:51]
Raquel Willis
Maybe. But my mom says, you know, when she thought that I might have been, you know, a signed female at birth, my name would have been Brittany Rose. So I would have been. I would have had two names. Brittany Rose.
- [97:07]
Toure
Okay.
- [97:08]
Raquel Willis
You know, I think the name does. I guess the name impacts how you're received, but I don't know.
- [97:19]
Toure
Well, congrats on the book.
- [97:22]
Raquel Willis
Yeah.
- [97:22]
Toure
On the journey.
- [97:23]
Raquel Willis
Thank you.
- [97:24]
Toure
And all the success that you've had. It's an honor to have you.
- [97:28]
Raquel Willis
I know we talked about all the spicy things. All the things. Dear Lord.
- [97:35]
Toure
Thanks so much to Raquel for a great interview and thanks to you for listening. Torre's show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. Maybe this show can help. You can find me on Instagram or show Torre show is written by me Torre and produced by Jennifer Brown. Her editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our engineer is Claire McHale and we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back on Wednesday with more amazing guests because the man can't shut us down. Sa.