ReLiving Single—We Are Iconic

Summary

Podcast Summary: Toure Show – "ReLiving Single—We Are Iconic"

Release Date: May 7, 2025
Host: DCP Entertainment
Guests: Erica Alexander and Kim Coles

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Introduction

In the episode titled "ReLiving Single—We Are Iconic," host Torre delves deep into the legacy of the groundbreaking 1990s sitcom Living Single. Joining him are Erica Alexander and Kim Coles, two pivotal members of the original cast. The conversation explores the show's cultural significance, the chemistry among the cast, behind-the-scenes anecdotes, and its enduring impact on representation in media.

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The Cultural Impact of Living Single

Erica Alexander and Kim Coles discuss how Living Single served as a cultural phenomenon, particularly resonating with African American audiences. The show was not just entertainment; it inspired many viewers to pursue careers in law, politics, and executive roles.

Erica Alexander [01:17]: “I became an attorney because of Maxine Shaw, attorney... You made something possible for them. That you were so fierce and so strong.”

This influence led to what Kim refers to as the "Maxine Shaw effect," where the character inspired real-life achievements among viewers.

Kim Coles [02:56]: “There's actually something called the Maxine Shaw effect and there's real data behind it... it was down to Yvette Lee Bowser writing something like that, which I think was unapologetic about her womanness, her blackness...”

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Creation and Development of Living Single

The hosts delve into the genesis of the show, highlighting the collaboration between Erica, Kim, and Yvette Lee Bowser. They recount how Warner Brothers sought to create a show centered on black women navigating careers, relationships, and personal growth.

Erica Alexander [07:09]: “We wanted to do a show about women and about how women feel about careers and men and dating...”

Yvette Lee Bowser's visionary writing was instrumental in shaping the show's authentic representation.

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On-Set Dynamics and Chemistry

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the natural chemistry between the cast members. Erica and Kim share personal stories illustrating their strong bond and collaborative spirit, which translated into the show's success.

Kim Coles [12:26]: “We're meant to be. And it was that road trip that I think was the beginning of a lot.”

They describe road trips, themed outings, and daily interactions that fostered a sense of family among the cast, enhancing their on-screen performances.

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Interactions with Guests and Notable Moments

The conversation touches on memorable guest stars and interactions on set. From legends like Eartha Kitt to Isaiah Washington, the guests brought unique energy and experiences to the show.

Erica Alexander [43:30]: “Eartha Kitt came to work wearing a turban, wrist weights, and ankle weights...”

These interactions not only enriched the show's narrative but also provided the cast with invaluable experiences in handling diverse personalities.

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Legacy and Influence on Future Shows

Erica and Kim reflect on Living Single's legacy, drawing parallels with contemporary shows like Friends, Insecure, and Run the World. They highlight how Living Single laid the groundwork for depicting authentic black lives on television.

Erica Alexander [54:22]: “It's lightning in a bottle. And it showed that all these people came together to create something impactful.”

The show is recognized for its role in challenging stereotypes and offering a multifaceted portrayal of African American professionals.

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The "Maxine Shaw Effect" and Inspiring Figures

A standout segment explores the "Maxine Shaw effect," where the character Maxine Shaw inspired many viewers to aspire to roles in law and politics. This phenomenon underscores the profound impact fictional characters can have on real-life aspirations.

Kim Coles [16:46]: “...there was a huge amount of people in that time that pursued politics and executive leadership and said, yes, we are absolutely inspired by the character.”

The discussion emphasizes the importance of strong, unapologetic female characters in media and their role in empowering audiences.

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Personal Reflections on Being Black in Showbiz

Erica and Kim share their personal experiences navigating the entertainment industry as black women. They discuss the challenges of code-switching, cultural representation, and the responsibility of being role models.

Kim Coles [48:45]: “...if we're living to please them, we will never be our true authentic self...”

They advocate for authentic storytelling and the need for black creators to own their narratives, ensuring diverse and genuine representations on screen.

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Conclusions and Last Thoughts

In wrapping up, Erica and Kim express pride in Living Single's enduring legacy and its role in shaping future generations of black professionals and creatives. They stress the importance of archiving and sharing these conversations to preserve the show's impact and lessons.

Kim Coles [61:40]: “We teach them about showbiz and we teach them about sitcom and comedy... we need to archive ourselves because if we are culture makers, we're letting our greatest culture makers die without having their say.”

The episode concludes with Torre thanking the guests and highlighting the show's mission to inspire and empower listeners through such insightful conversations.

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Notable Quotes

• Erica Alexander [01:17]: “You made something possible for them. That you were so fierce and so strong.”

• Kim Coles [02:56]: “There's actually something called the Maxine Shaw effect and there's real data behind it...”

• Kim Coles [12:26]: “We're meant to be. And it was that road trip that I think was the beginning of a lot.”

• Erica Alexander [43:30]: “Eartha Kitt came to work wearing a turban, wrist weights, and ankle weights...”

• Kim Coles [54:22]: “It's lightning in a bottle. And it showed that all these people came together to create something impactful.”

• Kim Coles [48:45]: “...if we're living to please them, we will never be our true authentic self...”

• Kim Coles [61:40]: “We teach them about showbiz and we teach them about sitcom and comedy...”

---

Key Takeaways

• Living Single was more than a sitcom; it was a cultural milestone that inspired a generation of African Americans to pursue diverse professional careers.

• The authentic chemistry and collaborative spirit of the cast were pivotal in creating relatable and enduring characters.

• The "Maxine Shaw effect" exemplifies the profound influence media representations can have on real-life aspirations and achievements.

• Erica Alexander and Kim Coles emphasize the importance of authentic storytelling and representation in media to empower marginalized communities.

• Preserving and archiving these conversations is crucial for understanding and appreciating the show's lasting impact.

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For more episodes and insights, visit DCP Entertainment's Toure Show.

Transcript

[Torre]

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[Kim Coles]

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[Erica Alexander]

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[Kim Coles]

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[Torre]

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[Kim Coles]

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[Kim Coles]

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[Erica Alexander]

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[Torre]

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[Erica Alexander]

People saying to you, I became an attorney because of Maxine Shaw, attorney. I get that. Like I tell Erica, I became, yeah, they went to school, they finished their schooling. You made things possible. You made something possible for them. That you were so fierce and so strong.

[Kim Coles]

And there's actually something called the Maxine Shaw effect and there's real data behind it. We did a data project because people kept coming up and saying that they had been inspired by the character to go to law school, to go into politics, to go into executive positions. Stacey Abrams, Ayanna Pressley, Meredith Blasio, his wife, not kidding. They were like, no, no, we're very serious. So we thought, let's look into this. Not just judges and executives and educators and got this data back that overwhelmingly said that there was a huge amount of people in that time that pursued politics and executive leadership and said, yes, we are absolutely inspired by the character. And that's down to Yvette Lee Bowser again writing something like that, which I think was unapologetic about her womanness, her blackness, and more important because of the way she looked, but also that she did apologize for being a tough woman and that you had to take her and or leave her and she did not care. She was unsentimental about it. But also it's down to also the look. And I came in with that style because I had known a woman named Deborah Hare Bay at Red Salon at the time and she was doing these new locks, locks and yarn. And she did that because I was growing out my hair. So I think they saw that, the dark skin, all of these things, saying that's how you can be in this new age. And you can also have sex. You can also be free of religiosity and that type of stuff. Feeling bad or apologizing for people, for blowing, you know, for winning. She didn't apologize. She was like, of course I won, you know, and I'm going to win again. She was a really great avatar of the future. So in that way, this show becomes part of. Of Afrofuturist vision.

[Erica Alexander]

Victoria Rachel. Okay, though.

[Kim Coles]

Victoria Ray show. Okay, though.

[Torre]

That might be the best question I've ever been asked.

[Erica Alexander]

He's a phenomenal person.

[Kim Coles]

I mean, legendary. I am a fan of you, my brother.

[Torre]

Erica Alexander and Kim Coles are two parts of one of the most iconic shows of the 90s, living single, a show that was a cultural phenomenon and meant so much to so many people. Do you know a lot of people became lawyers because of this show? They're doing a podcast now, a look back, a rewatch about the show. So I wanted to have them come in and talk about this amazing show. Let's get into it. It's Erica Alexander and Kim Cole on tour. A show. Hold on. You had alter egos on Living. What did you. What do you mean?

[Erica Alexander]

We were. Should I just.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah, you should tell them.

[Erica Alexander]

Somehow, one day, and I don't know how it came up, we decided, what would it be like if we were Africans today? African slaves today, but we still had the memory. Like we were African slaves. No, if we lived today, but we had the memory of what we were like as African slaves. So we're like, what is this microwave? I want to use the microwave even though it has not yet been invented.

[Kim Coles]

I don't know.

[Erica Alexander]

So don't ask me. So don't tell me what to do with the microwave. How do we cook this food so fast even though it has not yet been invented?

[Kim Coles]

So it's like, I do the school.

[Erica Alexander]

We were African. Yeah. And then we had names, and then we decided what our alter ego. So we decided Queen Latifah would have run away and gone to live with the native Americans. Okay, Right, Okay. What were you. You were Dabu and we had other names. It was Lati Bapto here from her song. Latifa's had it up to here.

[Kim Coles]

Latifa had it here.

[Erica Alexander]

You were Dabude.

[Kim Coles]

Dabude.

[Erica Alexander]

Because.

[Kim Coles]

Because you have.

[Erica Alexander]

You say you have no booty.

[Kim Coles]

I have no booty.

[Erica Alexander]

What was my name?

[Kim Coles]

Yours was Kluki.

[Erica Alexander]

Because I'm so kooky. Wait.

[Kim Coles]

Stupid.

[Erica Alexander]

Wait.

[Kim Coles]

And then Kim Fields.

[Erica Alexander]

Kim Fields was Princess Chidista, Princess Ch. That's the other thing, too. We were all kings and queens back in Africa because everybody decides that they were kings and queens. So was. So I was. I was, you know, Princess Kaluki. She was princess child star.

[Kim Coles]

Child star.

[Erica Alexander]

Because she was a child star. John was Prince Yakuana. I can't. Can I tell?

[Kim Coles]

Marijuana.

[Erica Alexander]

It was a mix of cognac and marijuana. It's legal now. And TC Was Prince because he was like, he. Because when he didn't like something, Prince.

[Kim Coles]

So that's the first time we ever said that.

[Erica Alexander]

That's the first time we ever told that story. You named me Kaluki.

[Kim Coles]

Yes.

[Erica Alexander]

Kim feels to this day it's the.

[Kim Coles]

Actual name that I got in Africa.

[Erica Alexander]

So she got the name and she gave it to me.

[Torre]

The show is a phenomenon as far as, like, one of the shows of the time, one of those shows that people are like, this represents me and who I am as part of their lives. Let's talk a little bit about why. Like, why did it hit people like, more than just numbers, but, like, it hit, like, the culture, like, in the.

[Kim Coles]

Heart, you know, some things just meet time and destiny. And we were. Had a really, I think, a really great, you know, flight path because we had Cosby show, and Cosby show came before and laid, you know, the path for everybody. And then we had Different World. And there was also Will Smith on Already and Family Matters. And so black cast in comedies were huge. And not just huge in America. They were huge the world over. People were really wanting to get to know our families and realize that, as you say, we were different, maybe culturally sometime, but very much alike. And then suddenly you had somebody just have a great idea about putting together women, black women. And actually, Kim is tied to that origin story. So you should say how that happened.

[Erica Alexander]

So I had a meeting at Warner Brothers. So I had been fired from In Living Color, released, Let Go, these Things Happen, and went into a holding deal at Warner Brothers and had a meeting at Warner Brothers with Les Moonves, who's not there anymore, and said, you had this beautiful meeting. We want to do a show about women and about how women feel about careers and men and dating and, you know, kind of like Jungle Fever, the War Council scene. Remember, there's a scene with all these beautiful black women, Phyllis, Yvonne Stickney and Veronica Webb, and, you know, all these great talking about men and what they were doing, what they weren't doing, all that. And I felt that the scene was, you know, just whatever it was. There was a part of the scene where they were mad at men. And I said, this sounds really fun, but if it's a show about bashing men, I don't want to do it. And of course, we know that that scene was about more than just that, but it seemed like they were really hon what we think about men. And what I was like, well, I think men are wonderful. So I'm interested in doing that, seeing the friendships and seeing how, you know, how much we love the ways that we love. And they were like, okay. And I didn't know they were having the same meetings with Queen Latifah at the time. So they put the two of us together and we had the great joy and great privilege of looking at a list of writers meeting with a list and going, this one, Yvette Denise Lee, who's now Yvette Bowser, choosing her. We want a black woman. She's smart, she's funny. She had come off of what, hanging with Mr. Cooper.

[Torre]

A different World.

[Erica Alexander]

And so we got to be there when she was chosen as the one to create this show. But it started with two of us.

[Torre]

The shows that you named as the predecessors were all family shows except for A Different World, which is a spinoff in college. So you guys are young adults, like career.

[Erica Alexander]

Career.

[Torre]

So we're just starting. We're not family. Like, the Huxtables are further along.

[Erica Alexander]

Weird 20 somethings. Right.

[Torre]

So that was new for a lot of people.

[Erica Alexander]

Yeah, it was 20 somethings. And to see the dating and the.

[Kim Coles]

I don't think people had contemplated what black young people were doing outside of school and family or jail. Serious.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Kim Coles]

And that's. We were all career minded. Publisher, lawyer, stockbroker, aspirational. Yeah.

[Torre]

Plumber, nighttime soap. But like, I can look up to them or I can see them as my peers.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah.

[Torre]

Or like they're doing things like I.

[Erica Alexander]

Am, or they remind me of my aunties or like my play cousins. Like, we represented them, the audience. Right.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah.

[Erica Alexander]

And I love telling the story. You know, we know that there was an African American audience, but we know that we were number one in Latino households, too. And I always loved telling the story of the little Jewish man that I ran into in a bank who kept squeezing my arm. I love you girls. You girls are beautiful. I love you.

[Kim Coles]

And the queen and all of the girls.

[Erica Alexander]

I love you. I'm from Brooklyn too, and I think he was enjoying squeezing my arm.

[Kim Coles]

I love you.

[Erica Alexander]

And so we just. You Know, we were relatable.

[Torre]

We also had sort of a super group in that everybody had previous name recognition.

[Erica Alexander]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Torre]

We've seen you before. We've seen Latifah before. We've seen you before. Right. So it's like. Oh, like, they brought folks together.

[Kim Coles]

That's unusual, too.

[Torre]

Yeah, that.

[Kim Coles]

And by the way, it's kind of interesting now to look back and see how phenomenal that is that we had all had success, big success elsewhere.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Kim Coles]

Before. And then came together at a really great time where we were independent, but also could be really good collaborators. Still, we weren't so full of ourselves that we couldn't, you know, be able to play on a good team. And also, I think it's the independent voices that people felt that they dug it so much. So to that end, to your question, I think it was of its time. But I also believe that the chemistry between all six people, individuals, and on screen, what Yvette Lee Bowser created was kismet.

[Torre]

The chemistry, for sure. Is there something that y'all did to spice the chemistry? Like, go together, go away together. Like, you know, make sure to, like, have dinners together or, like, what, a vacation together.

[Erica Alexander]

So there's a moment, and I was there that not. I say that was there because not everybody was there. The moment that Erica and TC found out that they had the same birthday, she happened to be sitting on his lap. We were in a Winnie Bay.

[Kim Coles]

Wait a minute. Explain that. I mean, you know, I'm just out there just sitting on black men's laps. Although I can.

[Erica Alexander]

It's a very nice lap to sit.

[Kim Coles]

On, no doubt, but it just makes me sound like I'm your private dancer. I'm like, what are you talking about?

[Erica Alexander]

It sounds like it was a good party. It was a good party for all. That's why I said I was there. So let me explain. So here's the first event. Kim Fields was doing a play. It was outside, just outside of la. She rented a Winnebago and said, everybody, just get on the bus and, you know, I'll, you know, have somebody drive you all out to go see the play. We're sitting on the bus. We're getting to know each other. Erica sits on TC's lap in a playful, joyful way. When's your birthday? When's your birthday? Same birthday. November 19th. What?

[Kim Coles]

What?

[Erica Alexander]

And I feel like that was the first moment of, like, oh, my goodness, this is gonna be fun. Number one. It was a great. Huh? What?

[Kim Coles]

We're meant to be.

[Erica Alexander]

Meant to be and it was that road trip that I think was the beginning of a lot. And so every and then John Hinton's birthday is two weeks later. So their season, it was like, where do you all want to go? What do you want to do? So we would take road trips, we would go to Vegas, we'd go to.

[Kim Coles]

Tc Always dressing up in dashikis and wanting to do things. You know, kings and queens.

[Erica Alexander]

We had a very black Las Vegas trip where we went to the Luxor and all dressed in African clothing or you would want to go salsa dancing. So we all had to find something.

[Kim Coles]

That is so not true. I never wanted to do much of anything. But TC like to do things and the other we did find ways to connect outside of it, but frankly inside of that, because you work so often, you end up spending a lot of time laughing and basically laughter to me is like super glue. It literally is one of the reasons why I think that this show has lasted so long and people really love it and resonates because they spent hours laughing with us.

[Erica Alexander]

Right?

[Kim Coles]

Not crying. It's tied to the emotion that I think humans seek the most often and that's through music, food and laughter.

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[Torre]

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[Erica Alexander]

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[Torre]

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[Kim Coles]

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[Torre]

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[Erica Alexander]

I'll say that I one of the first things I realized was consistent. I would get hugs before I got hellos like a hug like Sinclair. And I go, yes, hi, my name is Kim Coles. I know your name is Kim Coles, but you Sinclair to me. And I get woo, woo, woos, which was my catchphrase on the show. And I get love. People go, oh, we watch the show all the time. Oh, I let my granddaughter watch the show. Oh, my goodness. It was, you know, just warm, delicious memories from them from their time spent watching the show and still watching the show. So nothing but love always.

[Kim Coles]

I get a lot of, like, deer in the headlights stopping.

[Erica Alexander]

Yeah.

[Kim Coles]

A lot of, you know, looking and, you know, checking you out before and certainly screaming and crying and ride the maverick and, you know, and Max eats our attorney at law that you. You trying to get away. You know, I'm like, I'm not trying to get away. I'm here. Right? And I think this is all beautiful. I think what they want you to do is know again, viscerally, their body is reacting to something that we were talking about before, you know, that you couldn't stop yourself from laughing. Tori, you said that somebody said something and just slipped off your chair. But that's what's happening to their body right now. They've been instructed by years of laughter when they see your face that suddenly it's like, joy, possibly, and it takes you somewhere. And that's actually a beautiful thing because it could be like, where Danny Glover. And we could be in color purple. Mr. And people like, yo, that's. Mr. It could be the opposite. You know, nobody wants to do that.

[Erica Alexander]

You also get people saying to you, I became an attorney because of Maxine Shaw, attorney. I get that. Like, tell Erica I became. Yeah, they went to school. They finished their schooling. You made things possible. You made something possible for them that you were so fierce and so strong.

[Kim Coles]

There's actually something called the Maxine Shaw effect, and there's real data behind it. We did a data project because people kept coming up and saying that they had been inspired by the character to go to law school, to go into politics, to go into executive positions. Stacey Abrams, Ayanna Pressley, Meredith Blasio, his wife, not kidding. They were like, no, no, we're very serious. So we thought, let's look into this. Not just judges and executives and educators and got this data back that overwhelmingly said that there was a huge amount of people in that time that pursued politics and executive leadership and said, yes, we are absolutely inspired by the character. And that's down to Yvette Lee Bowser again, writing something like that, which I think was unapologet. Her womanness, her blackness, and more important, because of the way she looked, but also that she didn't apologize for being a tough woman and that you had to take her and or leave her. And she did not care. She was unsentimental about it. But also it's down to also the look. And I came in with that style because I had known a woman named Deborah Hare Bay at Red Salon at the time, and she was doing these nuloxies nari locks and yarn. And she did that because I was growing out my hair. So I think they saw that, the dark skin, all of these things, saying that's how you can be in this new age. And you can also have sex. You can also be freed of religiosity and that type of stuff. Feeling bad or apologizing for people for blowing, you know, for winning. She didn't apologize. She was like, of course I won, you know, and I'm gonna win again. She was a really great avatar of the future. So in that way, this show becomes part of Afrofuturist vision.

[Torre]

You inspired people to become attorneys.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah. There's a curriculum, too. I mean, it's [e-mail] y'all can go see. I'm not lying.

[Torre]

You must be so proud.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah, very proud. I'm proud of that tradition. It was with four black women and two black men that were very wonderful. Again, examples of what blackness is. None of them were stereotypical, and yet many of them were the dreams of our ancestors. If you look at Baldwin and these people, they'd say, yes, this is what we fought hard for you to be.

[Torre]

Yeah. There's other shows that played these notes bigger and you guys did not. You were more, I want to say, like, natural. So, like, to what you were saying, like, I feel like it was.

[Erica Alexander]

It was still a sitcom, but it wasn't slapstick and it wasn't over the top, you know, unless we were having an over top moment.

[Kim Coles]

He had some stuff that was pure broad comedy sometime. But I think that's also down to our personalities. We were very grounded. We weren't competing against each other. So I think you find some of that when people are competing for the joke in the room. You have got to know when somebody tosses you funny to lay in the cut and let them have that. You know what I mean? And the reaction is just as important sometimes.

[Erica Alexander]

The reaction moment. And I think I know that early on, and I've talked about this with you on the podcast. We talk about this how I knew that I could throw something to you and you would catch it and make it even more golden and send it back to me, like, thank you. You're giving it back. Like there was an energy that would happen.

[Kim Coles]

It's a conversation.

[Erica Alexander]

It is. It's a conversation. And no one. You can't. I don't know that you can teach that.

[Torre]

You mean, like, you could take the page and make it more special, right.

[Erica Alexander]

Just by a reaction to something. A great example of that is this meme that you've seen going where Regine walks in wearing, you know, sort of African ish garb. And the three of us are sitting in the living room and she walks in and we begin, you know, singing. And, well, that happened because she came to work wearing that outfit and we were all like.

[Kim Coles]

All started doing that Africa.

[Erica Alexander]

And they were like, that's great. We're putting that in the show. But that's what I mean by being allowed to and desirous of playing with each other and trusting each other.

[Kim Coles]

If you watch Kim Fields, who is a prodigy, please. And the best at comedy, she walks through. And of course, her character has to first recognize what's going on. And then she has to take it.

[Erica Alexander]

And get a little mad at her. And then she laughs at first, like, how dare they insult.

[Kim Coles]

And that's the end of the cold opening. It's done. And it's not done. But she's like. And her things are overreacting and all that. It's done very light. Cause she knows what comedy lives. And then we also know not to push it just enough to get. And that right there is like a jazz band. You're with great jazz players and you know they're going to play their part. And you come in under sometime. Or now, you know, now's the time when I pick up and that flute has to. Or that whatever. But that's because you. You trust not only the process, but you also are looking forward to what can happen when everyone's in connected. And that right there has to do with chemistry.

[Erica Alexander]

I want to say this, too. We would tape on Tuesday night after the first season or so we taped on Tuesday nights. And we would do two shows. There'd be a 4 o'clock show that was just straight to tape. And then at 7pm the audience came in. And so now we had another opportunity. Now the audience becomes the seventh member of the cast. And so another level of performance would happen because now we get to do it for the people. And it was magical, the jazz of.

[Torre]

It and the working Together. Latifah was already this experienced, beautiful, amazing person. Musician. Talk about working with her.

[Erica Alexander]

Yeah, she's a. She was. You know, she'd done some work, like, you know, I think Jungle Fever. And she'd done a couple of episodes maybe of, like, Fresh Princess or something else.

[Torre]

So it was newer for her.

[Erica Alexander]

Newer for her, but a natural. First of all, she's hysterically funny, and I don't think. I think some people know that now. She's really funny. Really get playful.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah, she's the baby of the bunch.

[Erica Alexander]

She's the baby of the bunch.

[Kim Coles]

Three months younger than me and. And she's. Her name, Latifah, means delicate.

[Erica Alexander]

Yeah.

[Kim Coles]

And so she knew that for all of her, you know, the. The body that is so, you know, beautiful, that. That Amazonian or woman king, that she could lay in a cut and be baby. But she was boss baby. And so I think that she did extremely well. But she also needed time. She did, and she got time because she was supported by five players who had a little bit more experience on stage, and that includes John Hinton, who, although he was a comedian, had experience on stage with dialogue and saying his lines and you as a comedian and, you know, and the performance level. So I think that she felt very supported. I'd like to think she did.

[Erica Alexander]

I hope it'd be interesting to ask her. And also understand that in her world, she's the one on stage. And even though she's maybe collaborating with another musician to now collaborate with five other actors, it'd be interesting to see how she thought she fared in that experience, because it seemed to. Now she's collaborating, not the lead. Do you know what I'm saying? The lead in that way. And there were times when we each got to lead. And so I felt that she figured it out quickly and was just really funny, really fun, like, understood the fun.

[Torre]

You said she needed time, so what was that development that you saw as an actor?

[Kim Coles]

She needed time to get. The pace of showbiz and a sitcom is brutal. It's about the most brutal schedule you can get. Excuse me. Every day, you basically learning to play a week, and you perform it in front of a live audience. Every three days. Every fourth day, you are performing a show from, you know, wrote. So I think that when you're doing your own stuff that you wrote for many months and years, you can go out on stage and do it. You know, I'm not saying you're not being an improvisational as a rapper, but these are things that came from You. These are things that came from someone else. And you're playing someone else, someone like you, but you're not yourself. And you're also responding to people in a way that I think is. I think, again, in your own world, you're queen. Here, you're Dana. So I think that that needed time for her to set up and sort of see and settle in and go, this is how this is gonna be. And she took to it very well. But I did think that she needed.

[Erica Alexander]

That time also for her. She had moved from Newark, moved from New Jersey, came out to la. I think LA was newer. I don't think she had spent this much time she didn't like in la. I think they kept telling her, don't worry, one day we'll move the show to New York.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah.

[Erica Alexander]

Because we need to do this in New York, where it's really real, where it's really. Where it's really authentic. They're like, yeah, we'll move the show to New York. It never happened. I knew that that wasn't gonna happen. Also, there is a. I love to talk about. There's a rhythm to. Not only you rehearsing, but you have to go to wardrobe every week. You have to strip down to your underwear every week, and somebody to try on some clothes. Of course, there's privacy. But I think to get used to that rhythm was new for her. And then once she got it, I.

[Kim Coles]

Learned those lines every week.

[Erica Alexander]

Every week.

[Kim Coles]

And by the way. Yeah, because they're changing the scripts every day. Oh, yeah. Sometime. Well, many times while we're doing the show, they're rewriting, and you just have to look at it and learn it and do it right away. And so you're.

[Erica Alexander]

It's a new muscle.

[Kim Coles]

You know, she's got an excellent memory. I mean, there's nothing wrong with Dana's. You know, intelligence is superior and amazing. But this, again, is a different type of pace. It's a different type of pace for all of us. I had come from the Cosby Social. I had two years of it. I had been in theater and on off Broadway here at the Public and things like that. In fact, we did a play afterwards, me and Phylicia Rashad at the Public. And you want to see two great memories. I mean, I think people thought, wrongly, because we'd come from TV and they didn't know our stage background at all, that we were going to be, you know, the people floundering, and we were like, what? They give us those pages and we'd be got It. And meanwhile, people would study theater, couldn't keep the pace. But we knew how to take that in right away. And that is something that's a little bit more, you know, it's not for sissies. You don't have time to be nervous. You have to get it done.

[Torre]

You don't have time to be nervous.

[Erica Alexander]

No, no. We have rehearsal. Get it done in rehearsal. And then. And then it's time to. Those four cameras are gonna be on and you gotta get it done.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah.

[Torre]

What would you be nervous about?

[Kim Coles]

Be nervous about not performing well. Be nervous about, oh, how am I looking? Be nervous. You've got timing, you've got rhythm, you've got other people there. You've gotta show.

[Erica Alexander]

You have to hit your mark.

[Kim Coles]

Show's gotta hit your mark. You've got all these other things. So anxiety, I should say, instead of nerves, because I don't believe so much. But that anxiety and that adrenaline is channeled somewhere else. And you've got to focus it in a way so that you can perform and that you can actually be available in the moment. Because there's opportunities all the time. You've got to be listening not only for the person next to you who's giving you the line, but for the audience. Laughter, which you can only rehearse. It doesn't rehearse. You can only do a performance. They laugh and you're holding for the laughter, or you're building it up by your reaction. And everybody's holding for that laughter, you know, or doing something to egg it on, but not greedily, because that's when it starts to be, you know, breezy and cheap. But that right there is all you staying present in your body. And that's why I said you have to. There's no time for being nervous. And that anxiety needs to be. You got to work together, essentially.

[Torre]

You're really interacting with the audience. Even though we're not going. We are not going to hear them, they're going to pipe in laughter.

[Erica Alexander]

No, in our case, we had a live audience. I don't like shows where there's piped in laughter because the rhythm is off. Because you have to sort of wait for something that may or may not be there or may not be, where sometimes there's a laugh and there's another laugh that nobody knew was coming. Right. So, no, we had a live audience, so we had our 4 o'clock show. And the writers would always come to the. To help us out by laughing where the laugh should be. And then the audience comes in a Whole other level would happen.

[Kim Coles]

Right.

[Erica Alexander]

We did it the old fashioned way. Rehearse every day, you know, camera block. And we camera blocked ourselves. So we knew where to stand and what to do. There's so much happening all at once.

[Kim Coles]

And even pre tape, they would show the pre tape to the audience and get that laughter then.

[Erica Alexander]

Right.

[Kim Coles]

So ours is not canned laughter. Both two shows on that day. One in the afternoon, one in the evening, and then you wrap that up. The next day you come in and start a new show.

[Erica Alexander]

Yeah, I'm tired thinking about it.

[Kim Coles]

Me too, child.

[Erica Alexander]

The only thing that's more intense than that is I finally had a chance to do soap opera. No audience, of course, but you learn those lines and you learn, like, maybe 30 pages of dialogue or more a day. I was like, what? Oh, thank God. My sitcom training got me ready for this. All right, we go. I shoot it and move on. Shoot it, move on, shoot it. You know, ready. I think that's why a lot of. There's so many older actors in soap operas who are still sharp. Sharp because their brains are. Hit the microphone. Their brains are constantly being exercised.

[Kim Coles]

Use it or lose it.

[Erica Alexander]

By the words. Right?

[Torre]

Use or lose it. Kim Fields is on this show a long time ago. I love her. It was so like, oh, my God. Just for her to walk in. Because, you know, we've been watching her since we were kids. Since she was a kid. What was it like working with her?

[Erica Alexander]

Oh, delicious.

[Kim Coles]

The same thing you just said.

[Erica Alexander]

Delicious. All the above. She's very. My favorite story about her. She's very generous. And so, you know, I had come off of In Living Color, where I don't think there was a whole lot of. Remember that camera one is your camera, camera two is your camera. They were just shooting whatever, whenever. I don't remember being told, like, make sure you look this way. So one time she came over and leaned over to me, said, just so you know, camera one is your camera. You better get your camera, girl. Cause I'm gonna get mine. And so I was like, thank you for like. And who knew that she was gonna be directing two minutes later? You know, she's now a director. So she was making sure that I felt understood that. Don't forget to make sure you look right there. Get your looks.

[Kim Coles]

She's also intimidating, though.

[Erica Alexander]

Not to me. You think so?

[Kim Coles]

Yeah. Cause she's a prodigy. She knows what she's doing. She has a photographic memory. She used to look at her stuff and then be off book.

[Erica Alexander]

And we'd be like, well, that's true.

[Kim Coles]

Wow. We just got this, and she was barely holding it in her hand. She would put it underneath her arm and be doing stuff. And you just looked at that and say, wow, that's high. That's how high up is. And it made you go, you know, that's what it is. And she would do it again as much as anyone else needed it. But you weren't waiting for her, so that was intimidating to know that, you know, there's a whole nother level. And she wasn't bragging. It's just what she does. You can run with a marathon runner who wins races. Yeah. You say, okay, I'm gonna have to kick in. I'm gonna have blisters.

[Torre]

You know, in the 90s, when you're doing the show, the country is slowly developing on LGBTQ stuff. Right? And, like, Ellen is having a moment. Right. Will and Grace is in the 90s, right.

[Erica Alexander]

So we're like, later 90s, right?

[Kim Coles]

Later.

[Erica Alexander]

Later than us.

[Torre]

Yeah, later than. So the country is starting. So if we did living single, like, now or, like, 20 years later, like. Like, some of you guys would be dating women, Right? Whatever. Like, Harlem has, you know, like, so I think about, you know, like, how the show would be. I mean, like, if you did it now, like, could you even imagine a world where, like, Latifah's character ends up with a woman?

[Kim Coles]

Like, sure.

[Erica Alexander]

Anything could happen.

[Torre]

And, in fact, you couldn't have done that in the 90s.

[Kim Coles]

No.

[Erica Alexander]

No. Was it time yet? Or maybe somebody would have.

[Kim Coles]

We certainly weren't ready yet.

[Erica Alexander]

No.

[Kim Coles]

We were still caught up in a lot of religious, you know, stuff and all sorts of things, and what rules.

[Erica Alexander]

Are supposed to be and what will my family think?

[Kim Coles]

Right.

[Erica Alexander]

A lot of still closeted stuff. It's interesting. One of my friends I've known for a thousand years, married a couple of times, you know, raised her kids, all that. She said, I want to be with someone, and I'm open to it being whatever gender. I don't care what it is. I'm just looking for love. And she is now dating a woman, and wasn't. It was not on her dance card, you know, before. So just sort of open to it. So it's safe to say that maybe one of us would have.

[Kim Coles]

And they're bringing back lavender marriages, you.

[Torre]

Know, what does that mean?

[Kim Coles]

Gay men who date straight women because they realize that there's all these amazing straight women out there who want relationships, but they don't want the BS that comes with being a man. And the women but they're saying that's what it is.

[Erica Alexander]

And the women will say, I'll be with this, this gay man.

[Kim Coles]

And the gay men who are saying they don't want the BS with being a man. But they, like, they said, I know how to treat this woman. I know what she wants. I know how to compliment her and make sure she doesn't go to parties with her and dance with her and give her what she needs. And we can have this, you know, if every now and then we slept together. I know they've been talking about it.

[Erica Alexander]

And it was a thing like, especially in the 50s, right, when you could not be out, like 40s and 50s, a lot of holly. So the Hollywood stars, the ones you think of that you find out like Rock Hudson and who might have had a lavender mask. Might have had a lavender mask.

[Torre]

This actually touches on something I've been thinking about a lot this week because Terrence Howard said he would not play Marvin Gaye because that might mean he might have to kiss a man. And I was like, and what he related to, I'm not homosexual. So I couldn't. And I'm like, that is the dumbest shit I ever heard. And the most anti artistic right for.

[Erica Alexander]

Someone who we know is artistic right.

[Torre]

An actor should be prepared and willing to do whatever. And kissing a man or whatever on stage does not make you gay. Doesn't have anything to do with being gay in the real world. It is a performance.

[Kim Coles]

I'm with that. I'm with you on that. That's why I like Daniel Day Lewis. Daniel Day Lewis played all sorts of parts. And I like, you know, I love Terrence Howard. I know him very well. But then you have these. Yeah, he did. He played my young boyfriend that, you know, Max goes to NYU and is sort of, I guess, cruising with students, playing with, working with him. Terrence knows who he is. Terrence knows it was.

[Erica Alexander]

He's a personality.

[Kim Coles]

He's a personality. He's quite the personality. We bumped up against each other, but we got it straight. What happened? He apologized. He called me out my name and I didn't like it.

[Torre]

What did he use.

[Kim Coles]

Your story to tell?

[Erica Alexander]

Just know that TC said, I'll talk to him.

[Kim Coles]

TC sat down, talk to him. The reason is we could have Terrence come and actually tell the story himself because the thing is, the brother is a friend and I wouldn't want to do something that, you know. And he's actually probably really open about it because he's always said, you know, I learned a lot on that show, you guys taught me a lot. And I'm glad that that happened there, because, you know, I learned a lot from what happened. Well, what happened is, you know, he didn't get fired from the episode, but TC Came and stepped in and took him aside and told him, look here, this is what's not going to happen on this set.

[Erica Alexander]

This is how you're going to talk about that.

[Kim Coles]

You're going to hear talk. And he had to come and apologize to me. And suddenly he was, I don't know, give me Jehovah Witness pamphlets and whatnot.

[Erica Alexander]

Feeling his Wheaties or something.

[Kim Coles]

He might have been, because he can. He can. He can do that. Terrence is like that. But. But we were all young. We were all young. And so, you know, I did another series with him later on, too. It's just that I didn't expect it either. And frankly, the type of, I don't know, internships or, you know, support or mentoring, we got a lot more back in the day, but there's nothing now. And so his mentoring happened that day when T.C. carson stepped up to him and said, let me tell you what's gonna go down. And TC And John protected us like that.

[Erica Alexander]

I want to say this. I don't know, you know, this story you're telling now about this. I don't understand why he felt the need to say. You could just say, oh, I turned down the role, period. But that he was making a stand, that I won't take this role because people will think I'm gay. Is that what they're.

[Torre]

Because I couldn't feel that deeply, and I have to be fully invested.

[Erica Alexander]

Oh, okay, so I'm a method actor or something.

[Torre]

But also, if I kissed another man, I would cut off my own lips. And that's where it turned to me. Okay, that's really homophobic. Like, you could have said, I don't want to do that. That makes me uncomfortable. But then when you're talking about self violence, and I'm like, okay, now that. That's too much.

[Kim Coles]

Well, that's personal, too. And then, by the way, they're all actors come in with their religion, their limits, you know, I try to have none. I have kissed women. I have been gay on tv. Yes.

[Erica Alexander]

What show?

[Kim Coles]

I've been. Forrest Kojo got me from the back, humped me from the back.

[Erica Alexander]

That's not. No, no.

[Kim Coles]

I say no, meaning I've done dt, I've done this. I've kissed women.

[Torre]

Wait, but her question was, what woman did you kiss?

[Kim Coles]

Oh, I'm kissing women all the time. I mean, because of my deep voice and I get those parts you haven't been keeping up on my dossier. Look at my portfolio. I did a whole science fiction show.

[Torre]

Where I was there. One that you got married better than another. Which was your favorite woman kiss of yours?

[Kim Coles]

Oh, I just did Swimming with Sharks and I played an author and I was kissed by. What's the girl's name? Karen and Shimka. Karen and Shimka. Like 20 years my junior. Kevin Spacey let her tongue me down. I tongue her down.

[Erica Alexander]

Is this the Kevin Spacey movie?

[Kim Coles]

No, no, no, this is Swimming with Sharks. It was something on Quibi that didn't come out on Quibi then came out later on. But no, it was a series. I played a gay author, but I play gay characters all the time. It's my deep voice. And I have a very kind of, you know, I say use the word, you know, aggressive or, you know, you know, confident manner.

[Torre]

Just an artist who's willing to do whatever story.

[Kim Coles]

Absolutely.

[Torre]

I mean, and you know, what if it was just another job and you just didn't want to do it like whatever. But you said no to Marvin Gaye. And I want to believe with this.

[Erica Alexander]

Point, but like I shouldn't have brought.

[Torre]

It back to be a career defining.

[Erica Alexander]

And he would do a great job.

[Torre]

One of the great stories of our time because of that.

[Erica Alexander]

But for him it wasn't worth it. That's what he's telling us.

[Kim Coles]

But then he wouldn't have done a good job on it. So it's good that he backed down for whatever reason.

[Torre]

What about when Isaiah Washington came through?

[Kim Coles]

He's such wonderful. He's a fantastic actor. So you talk about Isaiah Washington was playing Latifah's boyfriend for a while. I forgot this. Oh, we had everybody on.

[Erica Alexander]

She did.

[Kim Coles]

I forgot that I didn't. He was delicious looking and yeah. You know, and he seems to me.

[Torre]

The right great looking. There's been a couple of sets where people were like, what the fuck did Isaiah say?

[Kim Coles]

No, that's true. That is true that he's had that issue. But not on our show.

[Erica Alexander]

Not on our set.

[Kim Coles]

No, not on our show.

[Erica Alexander]

I remember. Wasn't his wife a fashion designer? She had this great leather skirt. I was like, where do I get what she said? I make them. Yeah, okay.

[Kim Coles]

She's a really smart woman and I know Isaiah. So I stick up for the Isaiah I know friend.

[Torre]

Heavy D on the show.

[Erica Alexander]

Heavy D, who was so sweet, so cuddly, so easy. To be around and wanted to be an actor and wanted to be there.

[Kim Coles]

Wanted to be there. Did Black Box theater. I went to go see him and sitting next to Quincy Jones, who was next. Are you kidding? Yeah. And he. And he said, erica, thank you so much for coming. And thank you so much. You're the only person that ever gave me flowers. I sent him flowers, backstage performance. I said, why wouldn't I? But, you know, that was the type of thing. Cause it's like, I'm an actor. And he worked hard, and there he was working out, trying to slim down. And I think when he had his. The fatal attack. But no, Flip Wilson was on that show. Isabel Sanford was on that show.

[Torre]

Worked with Giancarlo Esposito.

[Erica Alexander]

Listen.

[Kim Coles]

Oh, my God. Fabulous. He's a runner, so he's all sinewy and delicious again. I just. I mean, we had the best, but.

[Torre]

He'S an extraordinary artist.

[Erica Alexander]

I just. I've been watching him and he buzzes, too.

[Kim Coles]

He buzzes. Because the whole time he was there, he was saying, but Max, I mean, he was like, at the top of this and this and that. In a way, it's like, let me bring my energy down, because you're here. And he was fabulous. Yeah.

[Erica Alexander]

What's the show he's on now? Is it the Residence?

[Kim Coles]

He's on the Residence.

[Erica Alexander]

Oh, I love him.

[Kim Coles]

Yes.

[Erica Alexander]

I love every. Every age and every stage of him is Delicious. Came through.

[Kim Coles]

She did Nia Long. That's right.

[Erica Alexander]

She worked in Flav. Wasn't she Khadijah's friend?

[Kim Coles]

I think she was dating Kyle and taking him for granted or something.

[Erica Alexander]

Something like that.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah. For the money. I don't know. Yeah.

[Erica Alexander]

I remember one day she was pouting about Regina King and sexy, but just sort of pouting like, I don't like that. It's like, we'll fix that for you. Okay.

[Kim Coles]

Remember Regina King, though? Did she say smooches?

[Erica Alexander]

Did she say smooches?

[Kim Coles]

She was, like, coming and she was smoking cigarettes and she was the new, you know, roommate.

[Erica Alexander]

I think she was. Who's. No, Monica came on and said, I'm the new friend. Eartha Kitt. That was a great. It was a great episode. And it was a great story behind the episode because tc. So, first of all, Eartha Kitt came to work. I do this in my routine, so forgive me. She came to work wearing a turban, wrist weights and ankle weights and two sets of lashes. And I asked her, Ms. Kitt, why are you wearing wrist weights and ankle weights? That way I'm always exercising. Even if I'm just walking, I'm exercising. And she didn't. It was great. Two sets of lashes and she didn't. I don't remember her really connecting to the women that much. She was pleasant with us, but she was really very. Hello. Good morning, John. Good morning. Just so about the man. TC decided to throw a party for her at his house that night. And this is her during the day. Just checking to make sure everybody was coming. Are you coming to the party at KWS? You mean TC's? Are you coming to the party at TC's? And he threw this grand party for her and the hilarity was. Save it for the podcast.

[Kim Coles]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Erica Alexander]

She's good.

[Kim Coles]

Let me just tell. The woman knows how to throw down. And to see one of the icons of the world come in with the turban and show us how it's done.

[Erica Alexander]

Little tracksuit.

[Kim Coles]

And always be working out and always be conscious about the fact that she knew her instrument was her body and that she came in to perform and that she had that much enthusiasm about it and. And awareness is just one of those things that you hope that you can do. Yeah.

[Unknown]

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[Torre]

Plan on flying. In order to board domestic flights, your driver's license or state issued ID must be a real ID. Learn how to get your real ID [e-mail] realID or visit your local DMV. Who's your favorite guest?

[Kim Coles]

I love CCH Pounder. She played my mother and Karamalina White came in and played a woman who was in love with me. My best friend was in love with Max. Excuse me. And she was wonderful too. Yeah, Yeah. I love them.

[Torre]

I mean, somebody who's in love with you. You would like that.

[Kim Coles]

I do. Who wouldn't.

[Erica Alexander]

Who wouldn't be in love with you?

[Kim Coles]

Who'd be in love?

[Erica Alexander]

Who's my favorite? I loved having Isabel Sanford Wheezy on the show and I don't think the audience, it was a younger audience that day. They didn't know and So I asked her to come and stand in front of the audience, you know, because the set that we were on was off to the side. And I said, do you all know who this is? This is, you know, the great Isabel Sanford, and she was Louise Jefferson on the Jeffersons. I said, please give her love. And she raised her hand. I did what I could.

[Kim Coles]

I did.

[Erica Alexander]

I did my best. So that was fun. Who else? You know, who you and I took. We took him to lunch. So there's a cafeteria on the set, or not a cafeteria, I should say that they serve you lunch on tape nights. So we took. His name was not Tom Willis, who played Helen Willis, husband. I don't remember his name. And Erica and I took him to lunch, and he was. Asked him a thousand stories. And when he told us what his salary was, then we were like, how.

[Kim Coles]

Much y'all get paid?

[Erica Alexander]

How much? Like, oh, I wouldn't get out of bed for that much. And he said, oh. And when our. When our fee went up to $10,000 a week, we were like, oh, all the time.

[Kim Coles]

2000.

[Erica Alexander]

2000. In one day, we got as much as 10. We heard the kids on. I think he said, the kids at Different Strokes. Different strokes, making $10,000 a week. We like, oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Willis, but, you know, inflation, Inflation. He was lovely.

[Kim Coles]

He was lovely. And, you know, Egg McMahon was on there. Flip Wilson was on there. We had everybody. Gladys Knight.

[Erica Alexander]

Gladys. So the moms of you had CCH Pounder. I had Denise Nicholas, and Ron O'Neal is my dad. Chef John Hinton had Antonio Fargus, Huggy Bear and Gladys Knight.

[Kim Coles]

Gladys Knight.

[Erica Alexander]

Yeah.

[Kim Coles]

Come on, come on, come on. Doesn't get any better.

[Erica Alexander]

No.

[Kim Coles]

I think TC Was the only person to have parents.

[Erica Alexander]

No, we never met his parents. We met a nephew of his or a cousin. We met J. Anthony Brown, played a cousin of somebody.

[Torre]

It's lovely to have a all black or mostly black workplace. You don't always get it. You've had it a couple times. You had it a couple times, but you don't. You don't always get that. You don't usually get that.

[Kim Coles]

No. So it's shorthand. I've gone on other sets and I've done my comedy. And then they'll come and say, she's not angry.

[Erica Alexander]

Like, I'm not angry either.

[Kim Coles]

And I realize that white people, bless them, some of them see us as being not only just angry or whatever. And I go. So I just do the. Take this the same, but smile. And they never say a Word. And I was miserable the whole time. I said, they have no idea what I do. They don't even trust that I know what I'm doing and I'm wasting my time here. And so if you smell that or whatever, I start to just tell people now. I say, hey, you got to let me do my thing. You gotta. Because your sarcasm is different from mine. And I think we're having different conversations. But I. It's just like, you have to say, I'll bet on mine. If I'm gonna go down with the ship, I'm going down on my ship, not on yours.

[Torre]

One thing I noticed. I think I noticed this watching Chris Rock, that if your eyebrows are normal or up, your face looks open. And if your eyebrows are normal or down, it looks closed. So this is unwelcoming to white people. And this is. Oh, so the same thing you said. Like, you just open your face up and they're like, this. They can accept. And then this is like, no, that's too much. That's too scary. This is black and scary.

[Kim Coles]

That's right.

[Erica Alexander]

Very observant.

[Kim Coles]

That's interesting. But they would take that off of a white face face. You can be closed down. And they go, oh, that's fine with us. They're saying, something's wrong, and what is making them feel uncomfortable? And that's the white gaze that Toni Morrison was talking about. And if we're living to please them, we will never be our true authentic self. That's wrong. It's for them to try to understand where we are and feel good in that space. Saying, I don't know what that is, but I'm hiring her because she's funny. I've already proved I'm funny. Why don't you prove you can write funny and you can let me be in that space with you?

[Torre]

Well, there's a whole modulation that we are constantly doing. Right. Of code switching and how much we need to. And it's changed. Every different room is a little bit different. Right? I mean, we don't approach. We don't go into every room and act the same. Right. In some places, you have to push it up, and sometimes you have to chill it back. And you hope that you. When you pull it back, you're doing it because you're being intelligent and not, like, kowtowing. Right. But, like, you can't always be sure.

[Kim Coles]

No. And you can. And it's. And it's. It's. It's the burden. It's, you know, it's our race to run I always say, you know, Harriet Tubman had hers, we have ours. And frankly, I'll take this every day over the swamps, but it's real work. Culture work is the work. Because I think we're in this mess partly because we started telling bad stories. We told stories about heroes who were anti heroes who did not ever meet any consequences and repercussions. And so everybody started to cheer for that.

[Torre]

I mean, you know, the freedom work that, you know, Harriet Tubman did, Frederick Douglass, my God to, you know, Huey Newton, all the. I don't think that opportunity exists for us in this. In this generation. But telling black stories and making us look good on television is valuable, right? Not what they did, but it is valuable. I mean, you created lawyers, you made people feel good about themselves. That is valuable and important and, like, gave us a vision of. Of us in a professional setting. You know, being appropriate, you know, being successful, like, that's really valuable.

[Erica Alexander]

So maybe it's the new rebel work. You know, showing up and being excellent and showing. You know, a lot of people talk about Sinclair being awkward and being maybe one of the first awkward black girls, right? And being, you know, weird and wacky and being all right with that. And that's. Cause I'm weird and wacky. So there it is. That's all I. You know, that's what you see is what you get. And so showing ranges of colors that we have and so that people see themselves like, ooh, I'm that. Or that reminds me of someone I know. And so maybe that we get to.

[Torre]

Stretch the stereotypes reminds me of somebody I know. I wonder what you see that reminds you of living single. Right? And not that anybody's copying being, but like, Harlem is one of your daughters, right? And awkward black girl. And the show. Issa's show on, Right?

[Erica Alexander]

Insecure.

[Torre]

Insecure. Thank you. I don't know why you say one of the daughters. I like the way you guys insecure.

[Erica Alexander]

Even girlfriends would have been one of the daughters, right?

[Torre]

For sure, for sure. Like, where else. Who else do you see is like, run the world.

[Kim Coles]

I was on it.

[Erica Alexander]

Run the world.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah.

[Erica Alexander]

Isn't that Yvette? Yeah.

[Torre]

I mean, like, girls trip, not like one of your daughters.

[Kim Coles]

Well, I think so. In the setup, you know, you see four girls, but it's, it's, it's. I think they all have their different nuances. I think you can't help but sort of see, you know, how it maps on or the template. But definitely.

[Erica Alexander]

Yeah.

[Torre]

What else?

[Kim Coles]

Sexton City.

[Erica Alexander]

Oh, well, friends.

[Kim Coles]

Friends.

[Erica Alexander]

Friends. The most Obvious. Yeah, because it was running concurrently. Like, you know, we started, and then, boom, next year, there they were. So that was the most obvious one.

[Torre]

Well, yeah, you guys are.

[Erica Alexander]

I thought you were talking about black shows.

[Torre]

Well, all of it. All of it. You guys are like men and women generationally the same as Friends. Sex and City is a little different. Right. They're a little bit older. Right. It's just women. It's not. It's not really men and women the same way that you and Friends are. Right. So that's really interesting. Wait, are you saying that somebody was like, oh, if they did it with. That, we could do it with white people?

[Erica Alexander]

I think. Here's the story. I know. I know that Warren Littlefield, who was the president of NBC at the time, was asked, if there was any show you wish you had bought this season, what would it have been? And it would have been Living Single. That's the legend, at least what I've heard that he said, I wish I had bought Living Single. And the next year, he did Friends. Friends was on NBC, and we had the same production company, so it was Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers. One was on Fox, one was on NBC.

[Torre]

So we kind of think he saw.

[Erica Alexander]

Living Single and was like, there was a formula.

[Kim Coles]

Oh, we don't. We know. I think so. I mean, you know, and it wouldn't be the first time people see something and then say, if I just do this here, I'll be just as successful and even more so.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Kim Coles]

Because, oh, look at how they're going to support that and market it and promote it.

[Erica Alexander]

Totally different from what the most purest form. You find a. I cut you off. I'm sorry. You find a template or you find a formula. And the formula worked.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Erica Alexander]

And I don't think the formula had been, you know, maybe you could say Golden Girls, because it was four women, but four women, two men. In their case, they had three and three. And the formula worked, and so, boom.

[Kim Coles]

Yeah.

[Torre]

So the last thing I usually ask people when they come on the show, what being black means to them. And usually you want to talk about it throughout the flow of the career, but we've been talking about Living Single. So just within the context of this iconic show, what does being black mean to you? Being part of one of those things?

[Erica Alexander]

Like.

[Torre]

Like, you know, when you go to, like, the Smithsonian, they do, like, the montage of, like, the great show. You're gonna be in there.

[Erica Alexander]

Oh, you want to go. What does it mean?

[Kim Coles]

Well, I'll tell you what it means to me. I Think that you said something about culture work before. And I think that African Americans are the most important culture workers in the world because we created the biggest. We're the biggest culture makers in world history. That's a fact. We are in a first world situation and experience a third world reality. And we're always challenging that all the time. And it's Reverend Barber when I say this, because I love Reverend Barber, but he calls this the third reconstruction. And if this is a third reconstruction and we understand the power that we have, we see a show like Sinners, a movie like Sinners, and know that what's underneath and all the undertones and everything that Ryan Cooper Coogler is presenting resonates way beyond any horror movie or any other thing that Christopher Nolan could create, because everything has power in it. Same with Kendrick Lamar. We might not have won the election, but he won the Super Bowl. And then everyone is showing around the world doing this dance that the previous day, they didn't know. And they're also breaking it down and wondering, what does this mean? And what does that mean? Who does that? If you show, you know, no offense to a country star, but they're not gonna do that with that music. They're not gonna do that. But we get up there and each show and each opportunity becomes a way for the human beings to move forward. Dave Chappelle does something and we break it down to the nth degree. You know, a journalist, 1619 Project Induced. Nicole Hannah Jones. It becomes something that people are willing to shut down universities over and, you know, attack. Why is that? I said, because we are power. We're like wizards. And we need to know that. And that's what I'd say. That Living Single was lightning in a bottle. And if anything, it showed that all these people came together, including Yvette Lee Bowser and, you know, and the great Kim Coles and Latifah. To even have the idea to put forward that. That we needed a show like that and then put themselves in it to be used as vessels is important because we are the vessels and we have good and bad days, and that is a manufactured character. But those manufactured realities become the real. And so we need to know that if we. What may be created now in a space of just a scenario or, you know, a wonderland, is very real because it catches the imagination like a seed. It has growth. So that's what I think that people need to know, that if people knew, meaning African Americans knew how powerful they were, how would they move differently in the world? Would they Start to learn their history, understand more about their music, about the people, Marvin Gaye, Prince and all these things, and infuse themselves with those sounds and those poems and those lyrics and those stories so that you then could use your powers for good.

[Erica Alexander]

I should have gone first. Should have gone first because I. My. My answer. I should have. When you.

[Kim Coles]

When you.

[Erica Alexander]

When you edit this show, could you please put my answer first to Ray? I was mesmerized. That was beautiful. I was thinking the same thing.

[Kim Coles]

Thank you. I had wine for lunch.

[Erica Alexander]

You did have wine for lunch. It's beautiful. All of that. And one of the reasons why. So let me just answer a question. I'd like to answer one of the reasons why I wanted to come and play with Erica, because Erica called me and said, I've got this relationship at Heartbeat and my company, Color Farm, we want to produce a podcast about, you know, these rewatch shows are big, and they haven't done with what black folks yet. I don't think, like, come on and play with me. I was like, yes, where do I sign up? So this is one of the reasons why I want to play with someone this beautiful, this intelligent, this kooky. You call me kalooky because you so kooky. What was the question, too, Ray?

[Torre]

What does it mean to be black?

[Erica Alexander]

I'll tell you what it means to be black. To be loved, to be adored by our people. One of the things I hear the most is they don't do shows like that anymore. You represented us so well. I love that show. They even. They will always. People will always tell you who their favorite character was. And I wasn't always their favorite character. Like, I love so and so. I love this. I hear Max a lot. I hear Max a lot. I hear that they love Sinclair and Overton. We hadn't seen a couple like that. Innocent and sweet and, you know, how he pursued her and romantic and sort of a pure, innocent way of being that. That's rare and new and fresh for them. And so for me, it's being. What it means to be black is to be embraced by our audience and to be loved by them. You know, the show was going to be canceled early, and Tom Joyner created. There was no social media. He created a campaign to keep that show on for a little bitty of a fifth season. So to be embraced by our people and to be seen as excellent.

[Kim Coles]

And, you know, the important is they're gonna cancel a show that was number one in black Latino households for the entire run makes no sense. Right. So you need someone who, again, has a huge platform to create a campaign to keep it on. That's the type of headwinds that people need to know are still out there. And we are seeing it every day, whether it's Joy Reid and these people that we love and understand that if you are in this work, then you know as much as people are saying their success, there are more unsuccessful things that don't happen. But you have to stay in and you have to study and learn the game. Learn the game, learn your skills.

[Erica Alexander]

I think our podcast is not only, you know, nostalgic and watching the show, but we get a chance to have these conversations and take people behind the scenes, not only of things that happen in the stories of Eartha Kitt, but also moments like this that are educational and revelational and all the things, yeah.

[Kim Coles]

We teach them about showbiz and we teach them about sitcom and comedy. And we hope that when they. When we are finished, we'll have an archive that people can say these are their words. It's not just these fictional characters and isn't that a good show that these are black people talking about show business? They're talking about success, they're talking about failure, they're talking about their fears, talking about all of that. And we need to archive ourselves because if we are culture makers, we're letting our greatest culture makers die without having their say. And that should not be allowed. Beautiful.

[Torre]

Thank you, guys.

[Erica Alexander]

Thank you. Thank you for having our say. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. Philip Michael Thomas.

[Kim Coles]

I know that's right.

[Torre]

Thanks so much to Erica and Kim for a great interview and thanks to you for watching. Toray show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. And maybe this show can help. You can find me on Twitter Ore and on Instagram orayshow. Torre show is written by me Torre and produced by Jennifer Brown. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our booker is Claudia Jean, and we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back next Wednesday with more amazing guests because the man can't shut us down.

[Unknown]

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