Talib Kweli - I Keep It Real

Summary

Podcast Summary: Talib Kweli - I Keep It Real

Podcast Information:

• Title: Toure Show
• Host/Author: DCP Entertainment
• Episode: Talib Kweli - I Keep It Real
• Release Date: December 22, 2024

Overview: In this enlightening episode of The Touré Show, host DCP Entertainment engages in a deep and insightful conversation with the legendary rapper Talib Kweli. The discussion traverses Talib’s extensive touring life, his evolution as an emcee, his collaboration dynamics within Blackstar, perspectives on the hip-hop industry, his experiences with social media, and his ongoing battle for ownership of his music. Additionally, Talib shares personal reflections on literature and his sense of identity.

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1. Touring Life and Revenue Streams

Talib Kweli opens up about his life on the road, emphasizing his dedication to touring as his primary revenue stream.

• High Volume of Performances: At the peak of his touring career, Talib performed up to 250 dates a year. Post-pandemic, this number has reduced to approximately 100 dates annually.

  • Quote [03:43]: “At the height I was doing 250 dates a year. The pandemic decimated that. I think I'm back to maybe 100 dates a year.”

• Comparisons to Contemporary Artists: He highlights that unlike artists like Drake, who have extended tours with breaks, Talib maintains a consistent touring schedule.

  • Quote [04:15]: “Drake just got off this, what, two-year tour. Some guys go on tour when they have success and go on tour, but then there's breaks. For me, it's just a constant touring.”

• Primary Revenue Streams: Touring stands as his number one revenue stream, followed by various record deals that allow him to release albums.

  • Quote [67:57]: “Yeah. Yes. Touring is number one. Number two would be the various record deals. I get to put out albums.”

2. Evolution as an Emcee and New Album 'Confidence of Knowing'

Talib delves into his latest project, Confidence of Knowing, discussing how his approach to emceeing has evolved over the years.

• Impact of Touring on Music Creation: The constant travel and performing have influenced his songwriting, making him more attuned to writing with beats and considering audience reception.

  • Quote [08:26]: “Write in a studio. I write whenever I can. It's very rare that I write in the studio late immediately. I like to write before I get to the studio.”

• Shift in Lyrical Style: Initially known for his verbose and intricate rhymes, Talib now focuses more on fitting his lyrics to the beats, making his music more accessible without losing depth.

  • Quote [08:34]: “Less words... I started focusing more on writing to the beats. I haven't written without a beat in years.”

• Production and Collaborations: The album is produced by J. Rolls, known for his academic approach to hip-hop, underscoring Talib’s commitment to quality and intellectualism in his music.

  • Quote [74:49]: “J. Rolls, he produced Brown Skin Lady and Shout out to High Tech... he's in the hip hop academic space.”

3. Collaboration and Dynamics in Blackstar

Talib discusses his longstanding collaboration with Yasin Bey (formerly Mos Def) in the duo Blackstar, highlighting the seamless partnership and shared vision.

• Trust and Leadership: Talib praises Yasin Bey’s leadership and visionary approach, emphasizing their harmonious working relationship devoid of major conflicts.

  • Quote [22:21]: “I defer to him a lot when it comes to Blackstar. It's whatever Yasin wants to do. That's how it works.”

• Creative Decisions: They mutually agree to maintain the integrity of Blackstar’s sound, opting to work primarily with producers like Madlib to preserve their artistic vision.

  • Quote [33:25]: “Yassin started to only listen to Madlib, and I would play him beats from all types... it has to be over Madlib beats.”

• Group Identity: Talib reflects on the importance of Blackstar as a distinct entity within hip-hop, separate from solo endeavors.

  • Quote [32:13]: “Blackstar is special because it's Yassin Bey and it's Talib Kweli.”

4. Perspectives on Hip Hop Industry and Peers

The conversation shifts to Talib’s views on contemporary artists and the state of the hip-hop industry.

• Influence of Jay Z: Talib credits Jay Z for influencing his writing style, particularly Jay Z’s approach of crafting verses as hooks.

  • Quote [11:14]: “Jay Z is like, 'I write my verses as if they're hooks.'... that opened my... That's a hook from a Carl Thomas song.”

• Views on Drake: While Talib appreciates Drake’s craftsmanship and ability to create mainstream hits, he contrasts it with his emphasis on lyrical depth and authenticity.

  • Quote [35:51]: “Drake is the guy you hear in the Target when you're shopping... he's crafting songs that even if you can't sing, you feel like you can sing them.”

• Critique of Kendrick Lamar: Talib discusses Kendrick’s comments on Drake, interpreting them as missteps and highlighting the cultural disconnect.

  • Quote [37:28]: “I think Kendrick's colonizer argument, cosplay argument is a very strong argument.”

5. Social Media and Public Perception

Talib addresses the challenges and misconceptions surrounding his interactions on social media platforms.

• Labelled as a Bully: Despite accusations, Talib maintains that he has never attacked or trolled anyone on social media. He emphasizes engaging in discourse rather than targeting individuals.

  • Quote [45:05]: “Why is he so mean? And what they're not telling you is that never in my history of time... I've never gone to someone's page that I don't like...”

• Defending against Accusations: He clarifies instances where misunderstandings led to bans on platforms like Twitter, attributing them to orchestrated smear campaigns rather than personal vendettas.

  • Quote [58:00]: “I was banned from Twitter three, four times before... because the young lady... had people calling my phone.”

• Philosophy on Engagement: Talib believes in standing up against bullies and combating dangerous ideas, viewing his online interactions as necessary engagements rather than provocations.

  • Quote [46:10]: “These nameless faces accounts are still promoting and pushing ideas that are dangerous...”

6. Ownership of Music and Legal Battles

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Talib’s struggle to reclaim ownership of his early works from major record labels.

• Battle with Universal: Talib outlines his ongoing fight to gain ownership of classic albums such as Black Dirt, Beautiful Struggle, and Reflection Eternal.

  • Quote [68:29]: “These record labels are gonna... get by on it. You can't tell me that's not recouped.”

• Challenges Faced: He describes the obstacles in accessing accurate sales data and finding legal representation capable of challenging industry giants.

  • Quote [67:58]: “Soundscan changed their name to Luminate... it's definitely stacked against the artist.”

• Hope for Resolution: Despite the uphill battle, Talib remains optimistic about eventually winning back his rights.

  • Quote [68:49]: “I think we're gonna come up roses on it, though. I think we're gonna win this one.”

7. Personal Growth and Influences

Talib shares his intellectual pursuits and how they shape his worldview and artistry.

• Literary Interests: He discusses his recent engagement with the Quran and classic literature, highlighting the profound impact of books like The Autobiography of Malcolm X and works by Octavia Butler.

  • Quote [65:11]: “Malcolm X, Autobiography of Malcolm X. The Alchemist... Breath, Eyes, Memory.”

• Identity and Race: Talib reflects on the concept of blackness, viewing it as a cultural and diasporic connection rather than a biological classification.

  • Quote [72:25]: “Blackness connects us, and it's inconvenient. It's not perfect, it's not optimal, but it's what we got.”

• Vision for Humanity: Emphasizing inclusivity, Talib extends his advocacy beyond racial lines to support all marginalized communities.

  • Quote [74:03]: “I'm pro black because it's the most human thing I can do. I'm pro women, pro gay people, pro disabled people, pro poor people, pro all marginalized people.”

8. Conclusion

The episode concludes with Talib expressing gratitude for the opportunity to share his experiences and insights. He hints at upcoming projects and collaborations, reinforcing his commitment to both his craft and his principles.

• Future Projects: Talib mentions working on albums with artists like Bun B and Large Professor, indicating a return to deeply rooted hip-hop collaborations.

  • Quote [75:39]: “Large professor is man... integral to the hip hop culture... making beats for working with Tropical Quest.”

• Closing Thoughts: Reiterating his dedication to authenticity and resilience, Talib underscores the importance of staying true to oneself amidst industry pressures.

  • Quote [72:07]: “Being a recording artist is like, your boss gets your paycheck and you don't get to see it, and they give you the amount of money out of your paycheck that they think they can get away with giving you.”

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Notable Quotes:

• On Touring: “I'm a working-class touring artist that has to go out and show up in the flesh in order for me to earn my coins.” [04:38]

• Jay Z’s Influence: “I write my verses as if they're hooks.” [11:14]

• On Blackstar Dynamics: “I have faith in him. And when it comes to art, his track record is he's almost 100% correct.” [22:21]

• Social Media Engagement: “I enjoy the discourse. I enjoy the endorphins you get from... coming back as someone who thought that you weren't gonna say nothing.” [46:28]

• Ownership Battle: “These record labels are gonna... get by on it. You can't tell me that's not recouped.” [68:29]

• On Blackness: “Blackness connects us, and it's inconvenient. It's not perfect, it's not optimal, but it's what we got.” [72:25]

• Inclusivity: “I'm pro black because it's the most human thing I can do. I'm pro women, pro gay people, pro disabled people, pro poor people, pro all marginalized people.” [74:03]

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This episode offers a comprehensive look into Talib Kweli’s multifaceted life as an artist, activist, and intellectual. His candid revelations provide listeners with a deeper understanding of the challenges and triumphs that shape his enduring legacy in the hip-hop community.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

70,000 people are here and Bob Dylan.

[A]

Is the reason for it.

[B]

Inspired by the true if anyone is going to hold your attention on stage.

[A]

You have to kind of be a freak.

[B]

Are you a freak?

[A]

Hope so.

[B]

And starring Timothee Chalamet as Bob Dylan. He defied everyone.

[A]

Turn it down.

[B]

He lied to change everything.

[A]

Make some noise.

[B]

BD Timothee Chalamet Edward Norton Elle Fanny.

[A]

Monica Barbaro A complete unknown Only theater's Christmas day Rudy Dar under 1790 minute without parent Vituray show okay though the tour ratio.

[B]

Okay though that might be the best question I ever, ever been honest.

[A]

You's a phenomenal person. I mean, you legendary. I am a fan of you, my brother. The legacy exists whether Yasine Bey makes it to a show or not. And I say the same thing about Ms. Hill, the same thing about the next Dr. Dre album. We're in their debt. They owe us nothing more.

[B]

No, for sure.

[A]

Yasin owes me nothing. He owes the world nothing.

[B]

But you, you. You could have more.

[A]

That's a.

[B]

And he's the one who's being like.

[A]

I can't, I don't, I don't, I don't. I don't count like that. I don't, I don't like. I have enough to eat, which is a food. A phrase that I got from Yassin Bey. That's something he says all the time. We have enough. I have enough to eat.

[B]

What does that mean? It's okay to not be rich?

[A]

It means stop being greedy, like DMX said. You know what I'm saying? It means like, okay, appreciate what you have. The chase to always have more is why it's. We're seeing a lot of what we see out there in the movies. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like the idea that I want to have or possess and experience everything where to quote Yassin, we're chasing fun at the expense of joy.

[B]

Talib Kweli has been a friend of mine for a long time. He's got a new album out. The confidence of knowing. So he had to come through and Chop it up. We talk all about working with Most Def Yasin Bay, what that's been like, the inner dynamic of Blackstar, very interesting. His revenue streams, how he makes money as a veteran recording artist who's mostly a touring artist. And we go deep into his whole Internet thing, why he got kicked off of Twitter, why he's been seemingly fighting with lots of people. What does he really think about all that? This is the first time he goes in depth on all of that stuff we've been hearing about. It's my man, Talib Kweli on tour. Show Talib.

[A]

Hey, how you doing? How you doing?

[B]

How are you?

[A]

Good. It's good to see you.

[B]

Yeah, it's good to see you.

[A]

I don't know when the last time I actually saw you in person.

[B]

I know.

[A]

You know, social media makes you feel like you see people all the time, but you don't actually see them all the time.

[B]

Wait, you live in la?

[A]

No, I live in the breeze with the Blunts, as Capodanna once said.

[B]

What does that mean?

[A]

I just, you know what? I tour so much, you know, I have roots down in certain cities, but I really am on the road. I'm on the road more than I am actually in a place.

[B]

How many dates do you do a year?

[A]

At the height I was doing 250 dates a year. The pandemic decimated that. I think I'm back to maybe I'm guesstimating here, but I'm back to maybe 100 dates a year.

[B]

Wow. Wow.

[A]

Which is a huge difference from 250.

[B]

Yeah, but it's a lot.

[A]

It is a lot.

[B]

You do more than most rappers.

[A]

That's correct. I do feel like I'm the most.

[B]

Touring rapper, if not one of the most.

[A]

The most, yeah.

[B]

Do you think you do more dates than almost everybody?

[A]

Yeah, some guys, you know, Drake just got off this, what, two year tour. Some guys go on tour when they have success and go on tour, but then there's breaks. For me, it's just a constant touring. It's like the jet lag is my perpetual state of being. Like, if I'm not jet lagged, it's a problem.

[B]

What's the. So you're a touring artist?

[A]

I am. I'm a working class touring artist that has to go out and show up in the flesh in order for me to earn my coins.

[B]

It's funny because some people who don't understand might say, oh, he hasn't released a single in however long.

[A]

I mean, what's a single anyway? These Days. But, yeah, I get your point.

[B]

And they're unaware. He did 99 dates in cities that you don't live in.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair for a casual listener of hip hop to view me through the lens of what we call one hit wonder. I think that's fair. Most people who listen to music where my name is recognized, they're like, that's the guy from get by, or that's the guy who did a song with Kanye. They know about one hit, maybe two. And so that's what a one hit wonder is. It's not necessarily a fair thing. When you look at the scope of my whole career and my fans would argue to death on that, they'd be like, how dare you say that? But I'm talking about just like, I'm very honest and aware of my place in the culture.

[B]

But a music industry guy would go, oh, he's a touring artist.

[A]

I feel like a music label guy would not know that. But a guy who works in the touring space would know that. Someone who's doing festivals, someone who's doing clubs and theaters. But yeah, the average A and R or radio promo person or radio exec probably thinks I'm a one hit one day.

[B]

But you're mainly in clubs.

[A]

Mainly clubs, yeah. Yes, clubs. And I do, you know, some theaters, depending on the project. Or I could do like a specialty show or I do jazz clubs, I do nightclubs, I do small theaters. And. Yeah.

[B]

So the new album is Confidence of Knowing. Knowing. The confidence of knowing what is different.

[A]

This time in terms of what just happened.

[B]

Terms of you. Yeah. Like how have you. How are you different than you were in the past as an emcee?

[A]

Oh, that's a great question. External factors, I think, affect you as an emcee. I noticed that the roots music changed. I feel like the intentionality behind it changed when they went from being like, you know, the beloved hip hop group to where only hip hop knows about them, and they're doing giant steps and tramps and stuff like this to now where they're doing, you know, pre Fallon show, but where they're touring with Dave Matthews and doing these big, huge festivals. And so the decisions that they're making are based on we have to play a song to this crowd. And I think that starts to affect the decisions in the studio. And I only bring them up because that same thing happened to me when I started becoming a touring artist. Being on the road that amount of time really affected my decisions in the studio. My fans will say that I've read this online about myself that my voice changed. The sound of your voice, the sound of my voice. And I don't necessarily think that's true. I think I was projecting a lot more and being more aggressive in terms of the type of records I was making. Cause I was able to pull it back when necessary. And I could see the response on certain records. Oh, he sounds like old Kweli. And it's like, okay, you don't really know what you're saying, but I know what you think you're saying. You know what I'm saying, and I get why you're responding this way. And so I'm seeing that in the responses. And spoiler alert, I read comments, so I'm seeing that.

[B]

I think we know.

[A]

Yes, I'm seeing that in the comments about this album with J. Rawls. J. Rawls, as a producer, he produced Brown Skin Lady. His sound is a more laid back, smooth, jazzy sound. That's a sound that I was more associated with at the beginning of my career. That sound makes me rap closer to how I rapped the beginning of my career. And I think people see that.

[B]

Wait. In becoming a touring artist, it changes you in the studio and as a songwriter. In what ways? You become more hooky. More chorus.

[A]

Yeah. More about writing a song. More about paying attention to the audience, more about external factors. Before. It's just, you have no fans. You're all inside your own head. Right now.

[B]

I see the world rhyming slower.

[A]

Less words. You know, when I first started, I was a very loquacious mc. I would try to fit words into. People noticed, and people spoke about this and wrote about it. But it's because I had notebooks full of rhymes that were looking for beats for me to fit to. And if the rhyme didn't fit, I just jammed it in there and I figured out a way to fit it in there. And jazz cats really like that. You know, the jazz cats who like Miles and Trane, they're like, oh, I like what Kweli does. But the average listener was like, too many words. And so I. I started focusing more on writing to the beats. I haven't written without a beat in years. That's how I started. So all those early records is just those rhymes that were written with no beat.

[B]

And now when you're writing with a beat, like, you go into the studio and start writing when you hear music.

[A]

I write all the time. I write when I hear it. Even if, like, I can have a beat in my head and not necessarily hear the Beat, but just have the beat in my head and write to that. I can do that if I know a beat well enough. But, yeah, I write in a studio. I write whenever I can. It's very rare that I write in the studio late immediately. I like to write before I get to studio.

[B]

So you're still writing to silence.

[A]

To a click in my head and.

[B]

Then fitting it into a beat.

[A]

Yeah, but it's a click in my head. So if I'm writing, it's. Cause I heard the beat, I'm hearing it in my head, and I'm writing to the beat in my head.

[B]

Cause I know some people have. I talked a lot to Jay Z about he hears the music and puts the lyrics into the music. And he always felt like that made a more seamless relationship between the two of them than exactly what you're talking about. I wrote it and then put it into the beat, and so sometimes it's like squeezing.

[A]

I actually learned a lot from Jay Z, and a lot of Jay Z is like a. You know, he's like, hovering around this whole thing. Because what you just said is correct. When Jay Z came out with the Pharrell record, I just wanna. What's the record? Wish the dog met her at all that record. He did an interview, and he said something in the interview that stuck with me. He said, I write my verses as if they're hooks. He said, I write my verse for you to sing along with the verse. And as an emcee who's very lyrical, who looked up to Jay Z, that opened my. Oh, I wish I never met her at. That's the part I remember. That's a hook from a Carl Thomas song.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? Like, he's taking other people hooks and putting them in the verse.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Right. So it's like, okay. He's very deliberate with it. And then Jay Z is also where I get to quote confidence of knowing from. Jay Z said in an interview, you have to have the confidence of knowing when you have no fans, when everyone is telling you that being an artist for a living is crazy. Just get a regular job. Just give up your dreams. You have to know that even though they're calling you crazy, they're the crazy ones. You have to have the confidence to know that you're correct.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

I mean, to be an artist, you do have to be that sort of like dogged about this is what I'm doing. I'm not following the traditional rules.

[A]

A lot of artists struggle with that though. They struggle with, you know, a lot of artists, a lot of really great artists give up because society tells them, like this is not sustainable. Like your chances of making it as an artist are slim to none. Which is true. Yeah, but you shouldn't give up just cause that's true.

[B]

What was the line that Jay Z said about you?

[A]

He said if skill sold, truth be told, I'd probably be lyrically Tyler Kweli.

[B]

What did you think about that?

[A]

I thought that it's a compliment. It's definitely a compliment.

[B]

But he's also saying, I don't want to be like that.

[A]

Well, he's a compliment, but it's also, I wouldn't say self deprecating, but he's critiquing himself. He's almost like running himself to the ring. Or he's saying, I don't know if it's so much as I don't wanna be like that or I'm not ready.

[B]

To be like that or I would be more, I would be better if y'all would buy it.

[A]

I would be. I'm more helpful. He's really saying, I like what they're doing and I get it. While that's dope. But I feel like I can be more helpful as a capitalist.

[B]

Not helpful. I would rather sell more than show you the highest level of my emceeing. And you represent the higher like.

[A]

But I think the goal of that is so that I could put myself in a position to be more helpful. I really think that's what his intentions behind that is. Because when you look at where he went lyrically and where he, you know, the causes he gives his money to and where he's at now. He sounds like me in high school. I even had dressed like that in high school. That's the kind of dress I had.

[B]

In high school, so. But that was a big compliment.

[A]

I took it as a big compliment to me and the Common and to Jay Z in that era. He was actively reaching out to us, reaching out to Dead Prez. And he's the rare quote, unquote capitalist that's also able to have his level of artistry match his money.

[B]

Are you just as excited about emceeing as you used to be?

[A]

Yeah, maybe even more excited.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, I'm more seasoned. I am an expert at my craft. It is who I am. It's my identity. I love everything about it. I feel like with the exception of maybe stand up comedy and not like in an arena, but like stand up comedy, like in like a small comedy club, emceeing is the shit. That's the hardest thing to do. It's the hardest art. That's how I feel. I know I'm biased, but.

[B]

But it is hard. Yeah, for sure.

[A]

And I feel like we're better than Shakespeare, you know what I'm saying? I feel like, yeah, Shakespeare's good, but Jay Electronica's better. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

I love Jay Electronica.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are the parts of the game that you are best at and what are the parts of the game that you're like? I could still get better at that.

[A]

Aspect of it, the game, in terms.

[B]

Of being an artist, being an emcee.

[A]

Being an emcee, specifically to emcee. I always want to be a better storyteller. Narrative is something that I struggle with. It's very easy for me to write a song about the people in the struggle. It's very easy for me to write a song about how dope of a MC I am. It's very easy for me to write a song about love. That's my wheelhouse. To tell a story like a Slick Rick or Biggie, you know, I've done it. There's examples in my career of me.

[B]

But that's hard for you.

[A]

But I've had to, like. I've had to sit down and be like, okay, I'm gonna do it, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm gonna tell the story, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

I didn't realize that would be hard. I mean, I want more stories from all of you.

[A]

Yeah, stories are important.

[B]

And it's kind of rare to get, I think, the 80s. Like, if you divide up the number of songs per story songs, the percentage was much higher in the 80s than it is nowadays. And why is it so hard? Not just for you, but it seems like most people are like, that's really hard.

[A]

Well, I think it's. I mean, you're a journalist. Have you attempted to write the great American novel yet?

[B]

Well, for sure. I've read my version of it.

[A]

You've written this already?

[B]

I've written my version of.

[A]

I might have missed this. Has this come out? You've put a novel.

[B]

Yeah, no, I put out a novel a long time ago. You were aware of my novels. I must have forgot about it long time ago.

[A]

Okay, what was it called?

[B]

Soul City.

[A]

Okay. Was it harder than traditional journalism?

[B]

I'm a storyteller.

[A]

You found comfort in that. It was easy for you.

[B]

Beginning, middle, end. You know, throw a flag to where I'm going. Characterization like, this is natural for me.

[A]

I feel like the concept of the great American novel is something that's a part of our culture as writers. Whereas, correct me if I'm wrong, but the mythology behind it is, at some point you gotta just quit being on the grind and just take your time and write the great American novel.

[B]

I think that's a thing that writers talked about in a previous era. I don't think that.

[A]

I agree. It's way less relevant now. I agree with that.

[B]

How do people read a Gary?

[A]

But to that point, if we're talking about, like, if I'm comparing it, I'm making a comparison to the emceeing thing, to the storytelling. I think that's what it is. The idea that in order to write that great novel, you have to kind of like, stop everything else and lock in and just do that. And I think that, to me, answers why it's hard to do.

[B]

I don't know. I mean, you know, a lot. Most rap songs are non sequiturs.

[A]

That's right. I'm very good at non sequitur.

[B]

Right. You're changing the whole locus of what you're saying every two lines.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Right. So maybe it just takes more thought to have it go the one story for the whole time, the one line.

[A]

Are you familiar with Coast Contra?

[B]

No.

[A]

Coast Contra is a rap group from. Los. Well, you know, two members from Los Angeles who are the sons, twin sons of Raz Kaz and singer Tedra Moses. And they have this guy Rio Los in the group with Them and this guy, Eric Jamal from Philly. These guys are interesting because they put out a bunch of freestyles in one album. But their whole energy is posse cut, 90s energy. The beat selection, the bars, the hooks. They're in and out of each other's ad libs. Like Leaders of the New School. It's like Leaders of the New School. Scenario Remix meets Wu Tang meets Onyx, but done in 2024. And the guy, Eric Jamal. There's a freestyle called Never Freestyle, which really went viral for them. But they're all kind of rhyming and it's all non sequitur rap about how dope they are. And Eric Jamal's whole verse is a story, which I think was part of the appeal of it. Cause we haven't heard story rhymes. So here's a posse cut. But the last verse is a story.

[B]

That's dope.

[A]

Super dope. And he's animated, so. And he's like. He's not just sitting. He's telling you to. He's changing his voice for different characters. He's like, acting in the verse. It's fascinating. These guys are on my new album that we're talking about confidence and knowing.

[B]

I mean, you could write anything. I don't know why you.

[A]

I can do it. I'm just admitting that that's not as easy for me. I definitely can't do it. I have done it. I have. You know, four women on the Reflection Eternal album was me taking the Nina Simone song and making that into. I was like, okay, let me flesh out these characters. I have a song called Tater Tot on one of my albums, which I'm very proud of. No one knows about this song, but it's great. It's a great story song about this gangster who meets this girl at this hotel and gets in a shootout with these Mexicans. That was a challenge for me. Cause I don't live that lifestyle.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

But I was like, I'm gonna get my Scorsese on. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Who are your. Like, if we wanted to say these are the fathers of your style. The people who are the pillars of inspiration for the MCU become. Who are you?

[A]

That's an easy one for me. It's like it's three pillars. And it's all their early career. It's early solo. Ice Cube, KRS One, Boogie Down Productions, era, KRS one and Q Tip. And by extension, Native Tongues.

[B]

But group, A Tribe Called Quest. Q Tip. Not solo. Q Tip, right?

[A]

Yes. I mean, I got solo Q Tip in me too.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

But yeah, like Q tip. The reason I say that is because the Native Tongues as a collective is really my foundation. It's so foundational to me. But I saw myself in Q Tip more than the others MCs.

[B]

You do, you do.

[A]

I can't produce like he could produce, but.

[B]

No, for sure. But you do seem like the son or the nephew or the cousin of the Native Tongues.

[A]

Well, that's why my first single off this new album is called Native Sons.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Because that's exactly. It's direct lineage, right? Absolutely.

[B]

Is it frustrating to have Mos as a partner?

[A]

No, it's amazing. But you, it's one of the best things ever.

[B]

All the great things are obvious, right? He's amazing. He's one of the greatest MCs. But also I bet you want to work more than he does. And like you would be, we could have done more Blackstar albums. You could have toured as Blackstar. That would probably be big, right? That would be bigger for you than Talib Solo.

[A]

I don't look at it that way. I understand the logic behind that, but for me it's whatever shall be is how it is. And so it's like Blackstar is special because it's Yassin Bey and it's Talib Kweli. But that means that that comes with everything that Yassin Bey is, which means he's somebody who sees the industry as something we don't have to be running to be a part of. And I think he's correct about that. And the vast. Me and that man, we've never had an argument. There's slight disagreements, but never no all out argument. There's things that he said that I don't get and thinks he's done that I don't get. And I don't understand in that moment. But I trust him and have faith in him. And when it comes to art, his track record is he's almost 100% correct. He's always ahead of the curve. So even if I don't understand what's happening right now, why we didn't take this deal to do this show or why we didn't, the reason will come to pass at some point. I'll understand in a few years. I'll get it.

[B]

I feel like you're like Big boy and he's 3,000.

[A]

I said to me, me and Big Boy, we had a joke that we gonna start a group called Black Cast.

[B]

Right? Right. Right or right? The niggas who actually show up, look how great you and him wanna work.

[A]

Look how great Big Boy is as an artist. He's fantastic. Imagine, like, the blessing of being in a group with Andre 3000. That's a blessing, bro.

[B]

It is if he shows up.

[A]

It is whether he shows up or not.

[B]

But right now, you have nothing. You right now is nothing.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

You have a legacy lottery ticket that you can't cash.

[A]

You have a legacy. I cash it in.

[B]

Oh, legacy for sure.

[A]

But the legacy exists whether Yasine Bey makes it to a show or not. And I say the same thing about Ms. Hill and the same thing about the next Dr. Dre album. We're in their debt. They owe us nothing more.

[B]

No, for sure.

[A]

You know, Yassin owes me nothing. He owes the world nothing.

[B]

But you could have more. And he's the one who's being like, I can't.

[A]

I don't count like that. I don't. Like. I have enough to eat, which is a phrase that I got from Yassin Bey. That's something he says all the time. We have enough food. I have enough to eat.

[B]

What does that mean, it's okay to not be rich?

[A]

It means stop being greedy, like DMX said. You know what I'm saying? It means, like, okay, appreciate what you have. The chase to always have more is why we're seeing a lot of what we see out there in the news. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, the idea that I want to have or possess and experience everything. To quote Yassin, we're chasing fun at the expense of joy.

[B]

Mm. Mm.

[A]

And what's joy? Joy is family, simplicity.

[B]

It's deeper.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Fun is more fleeting. Joy is more spiritual.

[A]

Yeah. And everything about that man is inspirational. Every. Like, even our new Blackstar album that we put out, we got a vinyl coming out in November when I just listened to it again recently. Like, how he makes me rap. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

He makes you better.

[A]

Yeah, man. Forget rap for a second. He makes me a better human being by being my brother and my friend. He is inspirational to me on a level that's so far beyond hip hop that. That's why I respond that way to that question. It's like, fuck hip hop. It's not even about hip hop with this guy. It's like, that's, like, my real family. You know what I'm saying? And he inspires me so much deeper than rap. It's like, as a man, spiritually, just how he views art, how he. What he. What he deems as important. It helps me navigate.

[B]

How does he make you better as an emcee?

[A]

He very specifically challenges the idea that we have to always rap for the sake of rapping, that we have to always be participating in a discourse that we have to talk about how dope we are. Like, they're on the new Blackstar album. I say new. Like we didn't do it three years ago, but it's new to a lot of people. Sure, there are songs where I changed my verse because he challenged me, because he said, should we be talking about ourselves on this song with everything that's going on in the world? Or is there a deeper way we can approach this?

[B]

He told you that he heard your verse and told you that?

[A]

Yeah, and my verse is fire too. But it's like, as fire as a verse is. You really want to tell him how dope you are as an emcee? Or is there something deeper we can do on this song?

[B]

Is that how he would say it to you?

[A]

Even nicer than that.

[B]

What would he say?

[A]

Sort of like that, but with his, like, most deft tone, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

So it's light.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't feel like a criticism.

[A]

Yeah, it's not. It's not. It's a challenge. It's a righteous challenge. And it's always been like that. When I listened to the first Blackstar album, I'm rapping about myself as an emcee more than he is. And I think people like that. People like that dichotomy between us.

[B]

So you're saying even then he's seeing a deeper purpose for the.

[A]

Yeah. If you think about all those early, most deaf verses, they were like, you know, inspired by the Quran. And you know what I'm saying? It was like, this is the type of level he's on. He's no fear of man and this type of thing. If you think about his, he wouldn't even perform Fat Booty for years. I think he's kind of like, acquiesced a little bit. He'll perform it cause he knows people like it, but he don't like performing that song. Cause he's not in that space. The song is about meeting the girl at a strip club. And it's like, we've all done that, but he hasn't been in that space for years. He hasn't been in that space since shortly after he made that record. So it's difficult for him to perform that record in the same way. It's like he associates that Record in wanting to be a part of the industry. Wanting to be a part of the surface stuff with Mos Def. That's why he changed it to Yassin Bey. Because he's like, yassin Bey is who I really am. Most Def was just some guy I was trying to be that I don't even really have ownership over.

[B]

But Yassin Bey is the real music.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Are there ways that you hear him in making Blackstar and you're like, you could be. Or is it just him to you?

[A]

Really? Yeah. I think with the way I, you know, my role in Blackstar and like, in Blackstar, I'll keep it to Blackstar as far as I'm concerned. In Blackstar, Yassin's my elder as well. He's older than me by a couple years. Okay. He's been in the business longer than I have. Cause he was in since a kid. So I defer to him a lot when it comes to Blackstar. It's whatever Yassin wants to do. That's how it works. Hey, man, whatever you wanna do, you wanna do this or you don't wanna do it, that's fine. Whatever you wanna do. And that's how it works. So there's songs that. Yeah, there's songs that didn't make the album. But I didn't say that I had to let him.

[B]

Would it only work that way?

[A]

I don't know. I've never really tried it any other way. It works for me. And to your point, I have so much other stuff going on.

[B]

I mean, I think that I'm perfectly.

[A]

Comfortable with letting him steer that shit.

[B]

A Tribe Called Quest. Those men would say, everything has to be Q Tip's way. Now the few times when they were like, let's do it differently. And maybe things did not go the way everybody wanted it to go. And, you know, if they could have or would have been like, whatever he wants. But they're like. Some of the time they're like, you can't have everything.

[A]

Well, I think their dynamic is different. I think they developed as men differently. And Fife and Q Tip grew up. Grew up together. So this is like, you know, this is best friend stuff. When I met Yassin Bey, I was already a fan, you know, So I think our dynamic is a little different. And he was local, famous. He was.

[B]

That's still in you.

[A]

Yeah, it was. I saw him in that way commercial and I saw him in utds and Cosby Mysteries, and he was like a local celeb that he Would come out and hang out with us and it was like, man, look at this guy. He's so cool. He's a celebrity. He's hanging out with us. And I would like. He would come to the bookstore and Kiru Books, just like you said.

[B]

Kiru Books for sure.

[A]

And I would sheepishly like give him my demo tapes. Here, check this out. And then we sort of develop a friendship. Like we had children the same age at the same time. So we started doing like family dinners together. And I would like, I was be at his house having dinner and I would like leave my demo tapes so he could hear it. And that's how he called me up one day. He was like, yo, I'm listening to this reflection eternal demo that you left at my house. And it's amazing. And that's sort of how our artistic conversation started. So it was definitely like of me trying to get his attention artistically. But Blackstar was his idea. Like we became friends.

[B]

Well, everything's his idea.

[A]

It's all his idea.

[B]

It was really his idea.

[A]

Absolutely. It was like he was like. Cause we were doing, we did Fortify live together with Mr. Man. And so whenever I had a show, he would show up. Whenever he had a show. And by show we meant like go to an open mic.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

At like you know, with the Last Poets or you know, stuff like that spoken word era. I would show up at all the most def stuff. He would show up anytime. And whenever I did in Kiru, he would be there. There was those open mics I was doing. And so it became like this. We were performing together often and he said we should do a group. I said okay. He said we should call a black star.

[B]

Okay, that's what it was. Is there not anything that you want that he's like, I don't know. And you're like, I really think this would be a good idea.

[A]

There's been maybe Beats. One time I said we should do the Blackstar show with a band. And he said no, Blackstar is two MCs and a DJ. That's what Blackstar is. I was like okay, I agree with him now. You know what I'm saying? There's just things, you know, I play him beats. For years I was playing him beats and he was only listening to J Dilla and I playin beats from all these different type of producers. This could be a great song. And he's just like listening to them. But like eh, whatever. And Dilla passed away. The rest in peace of Dilla. And that was hard on him and hard on all of us. But it's like the spirit of Dilla was being upheld by Madlib. So Yassine started to only listen to Madlib, and I would play him beats from all types of producers, great producers, and he'd be like, play that Mad Lib tape again. And he would only respond to the Mad Lib beats. And so I was like, if we're gonna do the Blackstar album, it has to be over Madlib beats. And so that's why Madlib did the whole second album, because that's the only beats that, yes, he was listening to. It's the only things I could get him to rap on.

[B]

It's interesting. You have this dynamic where you're like, whatever you want.

[A]

Whatever you want. Yeah, man.

[B]

I mean, that is a way that. I mean, it is a marriage, right? And, you know, and that is a way for a marriage to. I mean, like, if you had a real marriage, that would hopefully not be the dynamic. But as a professional marriage, well, it.

[A]

Just works because I appreciate his leadership qualities. He's not gonna steer me wrong. He's just not gonna steer me.

[B]

Has he not made a mistake?

[A]

I don't think so. You know, it's hard to qualify. Who knows what the. I can't see any mistakes being made. Black star, think about it like this. You said you could have had more. You could have been bigger. It could have been bigger. Yassin was. He could have been Drake, you know what I'm saying? Think about how Yassin was. He was singing, he was acting, he was rapping. He had the charisma. They were setting him up to be the Drake for sure, you know what I'm saying? Drake started talking. When he started, he was talking about little brother in slum village and transitioned. But Yassin could never do what Drake did. He could never go fully in that direction. He had to, like, remove himself from the business. But here you are talking about what coulda, woulda shoulda been, but yet we've been talking about Blackstar for What, the last 10, 15 minutes of this interview.

[B]

Extraordinarily important group.

[A]

And so no matter what we put out or haven't put out, we still talking about it. It's still important.

[B]

Do you think Drake is hip hop?

[A]

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's what y'all seen. What Yassin said was correct.

[B]

I wasn't mad at him.

[A]

What he said about Drake was correct. Drake is. But Drake is more than one thing, you know what I'm saying? Yes. Drake is the guy you hear in the Target when you're shopping and the type of choices he's made musically with a lot of songs fit. And that's on purpose. They have writing camps and they work very hard at crafting hits that everybody will like. Bob Dylan once said, I don't go to concerts for a sing along. I go to a concert so I can see somebody do something that I don't know how to do or something I can't do. And that resonated with me as a lyricist who's very wordy, like, you can't do that. What I do. But I go to a Drake concert. I went to the Drake concert and look around and see a people. Everyone can sing those songs. He's crafting songs that even if you can't sing, you feel like you can sing when you singing them Drake songs. And that's a skill and that's a talent. It's something that they've worked very hard in that camp to develop.

[B]

Do you think Kendrick's thesis is accurate in terms of you're not African American. You are cosplaying as African American. You don't really deeply get what this culture's about. So you would do something like a Tupac AI or the line about you think you're freeing the slaves. There were several mistakes he made that I think we both would be. Like, an African American would probably never make that choice. Would know, like, Tupac AI doesn't make sense, right? Rapping about the slaves, That's a self worth.

[A]

I'm not familiar with that slave lyric so much.

[B]

Did you pay attention to the battle?

[A]

I did, but I didn't catch every lyric.

[B]

There was some Drake line about, you think you're rapping. You think you're rapping like you're trying to free the slaves, which is like, how is that a diss?

[A]

There's a Drake lyric from years ago where he correct me if I'm wrong. Where he says something like, he doesn't address anybody by name. But people were speculating. He was talking about Kendrick. He said something like, if I stayed on my conscious shit, I would have had all your fans.

[B]

Something like that.

[A]

Yeah, something like that. That's a real lyric, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That to me is a very. That to me, that lyric is a mistake because it's like dental. You're kind of telling yourself a little bit the Tupac thing. Absolutely. That was a fail. Yeah, that was a mistake. I think Kendrick's colonizer argument, cosplay argument is a very strong argument.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm a fan of Drake's music. Absolutely. I am. I'm a fan of his pop stuff. I'm a fan of his more underground stuff. It's trap stuff. I was frustrated when Not Like Us got so big. I love that record. I love Kendrick. I'm biased because I love to see the conscious MCs winning a conscious rapper doing a Super Bowl. I love this shit.

[B]

What?

[A]

I'm on cloud nine with this, so I'm biased a little bit. But I'm also a fan of Drake and a supporter of his craft. And I do think he's made. And Drake has been very kind to me, you know what I'm saying, when I've met him. But I think he made some critical. I think he underestimated Kendrick. I think he didn't quite understand his place in this culture. And what I will say is that as a fan of Drake, Kendrick tapped into something that we didn't know. I'll speak for myself. Kendrick tapped into something I didn't know was in me as a fan of Drake. In the back of my head, way in the back of my head, I don't think I liked hearing Drake say the N word.

[B]

Mm, mm, mm.

[A]

But I let it ride because of how dope Drake is. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

Drake will take your song and do it better than you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's a talent.

[B]

He's given a lot of people their first number one.

[A]

That's right. And a lot of people who went at him, he helped them out in their career. That's also true. I understand why he feels way about that. Like, wait, hold on. Your number one is with me. How are you coming at me, boy? That's fair. That's a fair statement.

[B]

Right?

[A]

But I didn't know that I had a problem with Drake saying that, or maybe potentially until I heard Kendrick say it. When he said it, I was like, yeah, something there. You're saying something. You went into my brain and accessed something that was in the far recesses of my brain and pulled it to the forefront, and now I gotta deal with it. And that's what is good about what Kendrick did. Like, that's what good is, not the. That's what's very strategic about what Kendrick.

[B]

Well, somebody. I saw this man on the street, this brother from London said, drake is talking to the audience and Kendrick is talking to Drake.

[A]

Yeah. When Kendrick said. When he said, you're the only one who wants to be famous, I felt that.

[B]

But all Kendrick was like, you're whack in all these ways. And Drake was talking to the audience like, oh, get a load of this guy coming at me. He's doing push ups in the park.

[A]

Ha ha ha.

[B]

Not even at all realizing he's actually trying to rip your head off right now.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you can't come at the Short Kings like that. Just can't do it, bro. They stay ready.

[B]

You have given us more than an album's worth of material of entertainment from Midnight Miracle, which is one of the greatest pieces of culture I've die for. Every new episode. Listen to it right away. The show is incredible.

[A]

I feel the same way. I feel the same way. Shout out to Dave Chappelle and Yasine Bey and working with them and that summer, I have survivor's remorse from that summer because the world was in a pandemic and locked down and we were having the time of our lives.

[B]

Wait, you did it all in one chunk or two chunks? Right?

[A]

Dave was having his people come into town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So every time you hear the Midnight Miracle, like, the audience is like Questlove and Jon Hamm and you know what I'm saying? And Common and Tiffany Haddish and these type of people. And we would all go and hang out at Dave's little shack situation and we turned everything on and Yassine would be on. It'd be a screen. Yassine's on the screen and everybody else is in the room. Yassine is in Barcelona on the screen. And that's how we. And we essentially, we did that maybe 20 times that summer. There's hours and hours and hours and hours of conversation that have never been heard. We put them out like 23 minute intervals. But I would say you have heard out of everything we recorded, you maybe heard 2% of it.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. And it's interesting because I was doing a podcast, so I thought I was the expert on it, but I didn't really understand Chappelle's vision. So I was also trying to be protective of my friends. And so we first recorded it, I went and got with the engineers and I started cleaning it up, taking things out. We can't tell that story. I started and I realized it's not my job to micromanage it like that, because it was when we first started it. We didn't know what it was, whose job it was. And I realized I just have to step back. Like, this is Dave Chappelle. This is the guy who did the Chappelle show. He knows how to edit some shit. I Don't need to do any of this. And what. The way that he edited the notes that he gave and the way they were doing it, I'm like, oh, let me just let them cook.

[B]

There's a lot of. Dave tells a long story, Yasin tells a long story, and you're in the moment, but there's not a lot. I think there's interviews that you kind of took over, but there's not, like, moments where, like, Talib goes off on a long story. So you're kind of like the glue, but letting them run.

[A]

Yeah, everybody was playing a role. My role in that situation was I played more of a moderator role. You gotta think. I had a podcast on. That was every week. So in my head, I'm like, they hear from me for an hour and a half every week. They don't get to hear from Dave. They don't get to hear from most. Let me. I have stories, too, that I could share, but these guys are big, huge icons in the culture that no one gets to hear from. I get to hear from them all the time. Most people don't let me step back. Let me let them rock. And so if you listen to the podcast, you hear a lot of me steering the conversation. What about this? Bring this up. Hey, why don't we talk about this? And then I let it go.

[B]

So will there be more?

[A]

There will be. I don't know how and when it'll come out, but there's. I mean, we talk about it all.

[B]

The time, but it will continue to be from the recordings that you made so far.

[A]

We haven't recorded anything new since last year. Napa. We did something two years ago in Napa was the last new thing we did. We had Cat Williams sit with us. That was, like, the last time. This is the sound of your ride home with dad after he caught you vaping. Awkward, isn't it? Most vapes contain seriously addictive levels of nicotine and disappointment.

[B]

Know the real cost of vapes?

[A]

Brought to you by the fda? Okay, I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay, where I go for all kinds of things I love. And there it was.

[B]

That hologram trading card.

[A]

One of the rarest.

[B]

The last one I needed for my set.

[A]

Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams.

[B]

One of a kind.

[A]

Ebay had it.

[B]

And now everyone's asking, ooh, where'd you.

[A]

Get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car. No more annoying, just beautiful. Whatever you love, find it on eBay. EBay. Things people love.

[B]

So I don't want to talk about any specific incidents that have happened online or whatever the fuck.

[A]

We could talk about all of them.

[B]

No, no, but I'm an open book. No, I know you are, but I don't.

[A]

You don't wanna talk about that?

[B]

I don't wanna talk about that. Right. I don't wanna get in the weeds of like, well, this one said this and that one did that. But when we look at a larger picture, should we say Talib is always fighting with somebody or somebody's always coming at him and he's always defending himself. Cause you're getting in a lot of fights.

[A]

I mean, look, the fact is, is that there's a misconception about me that when I was on social media. Cause I'm largely not anymore, but when I was on social media, that I. The people who. My detractors, my opps, as the kids say, will tell you that Kweli's a bully. And he's so mean. Why is he so mean? I'm not even being facetious or hyperbolic.

[B]

No, I know.

[A]

I'm quoting people directly. I've seen on podcasts.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Why is he so mean?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And what they're not telling you is that never in my history of time, on Twitter, on Instagram, have I ever gone to someone's page that I don't like or I don't agree with and left a comment on their page. I've never done that. And so this narrative that I'm. Why would I even do that?

[B]

Wait, so what have you done?

[A]

I state my opinion on my page, and then all these free speech warriors, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

Free thinkers. So you feel like you're always defending yourself. They come to my page, people attack you, and you're defending yourself.

[A]

Right. They come to my page, they say mean things, they attack me, they're rude. Here's what the difference. Most people in my position would ignore.

[B]

That, would say nothing, would ignore that.

[A]

And most people in my position, and most people who are not in my position would tell me, give me the advice to ignore that. I don't take that advice.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

The main reason one, I have fun doing it. That's the main reason. I'm very blessed, privileged guy. I don't do much that I don't enjoy doing.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

You know what I'm saying? I enjoy the discourse. I enjoy the endorphins you get from, like, coming back as someone who thought that you weren't gonna say nothing. And yeah, I enjoy that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Beyond enjoying it, I do think that it's very necessary for us to stand up to bullies. I do think it's necessary for us to speak up for ourselves.

[B]

Do you think that sometimes you look like a bully in these exchanges?

[A]

I'm not concerned with the perception. I think that in people who are not enlightened, people who are far away from the conversation, people will say, they quote the Jay Z lyric to me all the time. From a distance, you can't tell who's who. Well, then, motherfucker, come closer. Why are you commenting from a distance on some shit you can't hear? You know what I'm saying? Of course, both people look like fools. Come closer, listen to the argument and figure out what side you want.

[B]

You remind me of. I saw somebody said, if you're arguing on the phone in public, you need to put it on speaker. So I can understand both sides.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I enjoy the game.

[B]

But you seem pugnacious. And a lot of people are like, he's constantly punching down on people who are much smaller.

[A]

Punching down, okay, nameless, who are these people? Who are. Can we name them?

[B]

You can. I just don't want it to devolve into like, so this one said this, and I had to go, okay, but.

[A]

Okay, so let's talk about them in general without speaking names. Most of the people, with the exception of a couple examples that people will say that I'm punching down on are nameless, faceless accounts, because that's who I'm arguing with most. So you're defending nameless. You don't even.

[B]

Why don't you argue with them?

[A]

Because I'm not arguing with them. I'm combating an ideal. It's important for us to understand that these nameless faces accounts are still promoting and pushing ideas that are dangerous. And if we don't push back, if we who know better don't push back on them, they have an effect on our society. Donald Trump's presidency being one of them, Jaguar Wright's ascension being another one. The reason why Jaguar Wright. The reason why Jaguar Wright is where she's at is because she started out talking about the roots and me in common and Badu and Eric and Jill Scott and all of us, with the exception of me, were like, I'm not gonna say nothing. You ignore her. She go away. It's the wrong move. Fellas and ladies. That wasn't it. That wasn't it. These people are cancerous. If you ignore disease, it festers and grows. This idea that you have to Ignore bigotry and these ideas I'm fighting. I'm not fighting over someone, over someone thinks I'm a whack rapper or someone thinks it's not. These are. I'm talking about discrimination, immigration reparations, bigotry. I'm talking about Palestine. These are the things that you have argued about.

[B]

A lot of those things. Okay, hold. All right. I wanna pull back a little bit. You may have seen this article. Article, I believe it was on Huffington Post. A brother talked about how much he loved your music.

[A]

Oh, that was a very shitty article.

[B]

What?

[A]

Let's pull it up.

[B]

I don't understand, but let's pull it up. He talked about, you know, I loved Kweli here. I named my. He nicknamed himself after one of your songs. He loved your music very deeply.

[A]

Where's my phone at? No, I wanna pull an article up because one of the problems I have.

[B]

But his point was, and I think there are other people who.

[A]

Where's my phone at?

[B]

I think there are other people who share his point that there was a moment where you were this amazing emcee who, because of the music, seemed above it all, he's wise, he's deeply read, he's an intellectual. And as we got to know you more as a social media person, some people said, I don't like the person I'm getting to see on social media.

[A]

Yeah. Can we pull up the article? Because this is one thing I don't like, and this is part of the problem I have with these type of discussions surrounding me is that what this guy did in the Huffington Post, what he's saying about me, okay, is not based on facts. It's based on something he heard, okay? And so this is the issue I'm having with the way that my name is being tossed about. People will hear something online, okay, or be reported.

[B]

Is this it? Khalid continues to dim his own star here.

[A]

Here we go. All right, all right. I have an issue with the title, okay? Because.

[B]

Well, that's his point.

[A]

That's his opinion. This is an opinion piece. But what metric is this? You're writing an article about me and am I less famous now? Am I less like this? That it says, okay, look, it says right here, attacking and trolling people on social media. I've never attacked anybody on social media. I don't troll anybody on social media. These are lies. So this statement, he's stating this as it's a fact. It's not a fact. I need to see proof. Where's your proof? Where in this article is proof? That I attacked anybody. There is none. Where in this article is proof that I trolled anybody? I know that's what they say. But why are we accepting this without proof? Isn't this a journalist? Isn't this the Huffington Post?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I see us as opinion piece. So it's opinion. But opinions have to be based on facts.

[B]

Facts.

[A]

What examples does he give? Right. He went after journalist Brittany Daniel for tweeting about Dave Chappelle's recent onstage comment that he asked Elon Musk to overturn his butter's Twitter ban during his mind boggling at the thing. I corrected her lie. So me correcting a lie is going. I'm going after someone. This woman wrote an article saying that I. I don't want to be on Twitter. I don't wanna be no place I'm not welcome at. She wrote an article saying that I asked Elon Musk to put me on Twitter. Back on Twitter. And now Elon Musk has put me back on Twitter. None of that's true. I'm not allowed to say what you wrote is true without that being an attack. So I see two lies here. You know what I'm saying? Like he says, for those who are familiar with Kweli's behavior online. Behavior online. What does that mean? I'm sure his attacks are expected. What attacks? You still haven't said. I have a huge problem with this. This is supposed to be journalism. What attacks you talking about? You have taken it as fact that Kweli just attacks and trolls people on Twitter. Prove it. Where's the proof? Show me a tweet where I attack someone. Show me a tweet where I trolled someone. Show it to me. Put it in the article. It's not even in the article if we keep scrolling. He says I've interacted with Kweli twice for two.

[B]

He did two different posts.

[A]

My first was a phoner with the Michigan Kid Daily at that concert I met my first love. Kweli was running late for a as a flex. I pulled out my Motorola flip phone to call him. Was that really Kweli? Okay. You're a fan, bro.

[B]

Yeah. He's at the University of Michigan. He called you to show off to a girl? He was. Yes. Yes. He says that I have once been.

[A]

A young person in college. That's a corny dude. I'm sorry. Come on.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

That's some goofy shit, bro. Who does this and then you write about it. You're showing me that you have a bias.

[B]

You're showing me like he's showing you There. That he really liked you. And he's saying that over time, seeing you get into lots of social media.

[A]

In my late 20s, I'd watch Kweli tango with perfect strangers online. Why is he entertaining these fools? Why are you policing what I do with my free time? Let's have that clear.

[B]

I don't think they're policing you.

[A]

You just. How could it not be? You're saying that because I like this artist. He should spend his free time not fighting racism, not combating bigotry. He should do what I want him to do. He should just be quiet. How am I? Where am I? Where's the lie? He should just be quiet. His voice. He should just shut the fuck up. Why don't he make another rap song.

[B]

So you don't have. Do you have any regrets about the way that. Like you said to me, like I got kicked off the Internet, right? I mean, you could be on TikTok and Instagram.

[A]

Look, look. Ever so steadily, he started making more headlines for Twitter beefs, feuds with inconsequential white rappers, and the occasional white supremacist. What? So you're mad that I'm combating racism? This is upsetting to you?

[B]

These white rappers, he stand up to white supremacists.

[A]

These white rappers he talking about are racist people in our community who have come after me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Never once did I go on someone's page and say, you're a racist. I don't do that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're framing me as. And there's a part of this. He's talking about this young lady. I'm not gonna say her name unless you wanna say it. Cause you said you didn't wanna say names. But he's talking about there's court shit going on that people don't know about. Like there's like. You know what I'm saying? Like this nothing. He said. Where does he. There's zero.

[B]

There's zero citations.

[A]

Citations of me harassing or attacking anyone. I'm supposed to accept that as fact? You write this for the Hufferton Post? You're supposed to do me better than that, bro. Show one example. And you know why there's zero citation? Cuz it's a lie to me.

[B]

Did you fire back at him on Instagram? You did.

[A]

I posted this and I said something on Instagram. That was it. Yeah. I question his journalistic integrity. Yeah. You know.

[B]

So you have no regret.

[A]

The last thing I'm gonna say about punching down this young lady, that we're not gonna mention her name. There were Articles about this in Jezebel, Slate, the Root. Them bozos at the Root said a bunch of fuckboy shit. For real. Fuck those guys at the Root, for real. Rolling Stone. Michael Harriot, that's his name. Rolling Stone. Spin. Ok Player Hip Hop dx. All these publications sites wrote articles saying that I harassed and attacked this woman. Not one of them had one tweet that proved or one thing that I said that I harassed or attacked anybody. Who's punching, who am I punching down on? Who is this person? Has anyone even talked to this person in person? Is she even really the person she says she is? Who am I punching down on? And if I'm punching down, why are all those media outlets coming against me? Who's the one with the power here? They talk about power dynamics. If I had power dynamics in that situation, yes, black men, men in general have a power dynamic over women. Yes, I have a power dynamic because I'm a famous person. All these things are true. But in the pitchfork wielding culture of social media, those power dynamics shift with the mob mentality of piling on, you know what I'm saying? Like, I still stand with.

[B]

And you do. When you enter the social media world, you do have something to lose because you have an image, right, that you need to be of a certain level if people wanna buy the records and go to the concert. You know, Jim from Chicago, who throws a digital stone at you has nothing to lose.

[A]

That's true, right?

[B]

And he could say, you fuck you, Talib, doesn't matter. And if you're like, well, fuck you, Jim, like, oh, shit, yeah.

[A]

I think I have no regrets because I'm proud of my morals and values. The problem is, is that I'm an intelligent person and there's a privilege that comes with that. I know how to insult you without punching down. I know how to insult you without using a racist stereotype or a sexist statement. You don't see me calling people misogynistic slurs. You don't see me calling. You don't see me doing that. Yeah, you see me being engaging and you see me arguing and debating and cursing people out. You see me do that, but I'm not. There's no statement. And all the years arguing with people on Twitter and Instagram, there's no statement that I'm going to have to apologize for, because what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I gave people exactly the energy that they showed up with. And what I have learned is that that type of realness and that type of willing to engage on that level is not welcome in those spaces. And I'm fine with that. You know what I'm saying? Because if I was just posting about my music, if I wasn't, and keep in mind, again, people have to remember these are not just me arguing about a sports team or lyrics. I was dealing with high minded concepts. And, you know, these things threaten the status quo when you have a moral stance. That's not good for people who are there to make money. I mean, it's an obstacle to making money.

[B]

It's completely meaningless to be banned from Twitter at this point.

[A]

I agree. Because and speaking of Twitter, we're holding up. You got banned from Twitter as a value judgment, as a judgment of your character. People do that to me all the time. Well, what they say about Talib is true because it must be true because he got banned from Twitter. Twitter. These same people who sold the company to Elon Musk who is now using Twitter to say he's Dark Maga. And all you people who claim to be progressive and anti Trump people are still on Twitter every day. But I'm the bad guy because I was banned from Twitter. I was banned from Twitter three, four times before. The last time there are articles written about it. I was banned from Twitter because I was a threat to white supremacist groups. Proud Boys came after me. All these people came after David Duke came after me. All of them came after me. And they would start smear campaigns. Zionists came after me. When I supported bds, they would start smear campaigns and they would do mass reporting of me. I know this because Twitter called me. Twitter would call me and they would be like, yo, you're getting mass reported. We're not gonna ban you because we can't find anything to ban you for. When I did get banned from Twitter, it's because the young lady who was lying on me had people, the mom mentality got so sick that I had people calling, emailing my mother, threats, threats to her work email. At Medgar Evers College, I had people making videos threatening me. It's 2020. I'm in yellow Springs working on a podcast. At one point, my phone, I'm getting calls every five minutes, death threats. I'm gonna rape your daughter. I'm gonna find your son and I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna find your mother because you be trolling black women online. This is what I'm getting. One of the guys making the threats, he actually made a video years later, like say a Trump Supporter, years later, Black Trump supporter. Yeah, that was me calling your phone, making all those threats. You know what I'm saying? So one of the times, this is where I slipped up. I was getting into threats on the phone. I researched it to find out where the phone number was coming. I found out it was like, a dummy phone number because it was a dummy phone number. I posted the threat on Twitter, and I didn't block the phone number out, thinking it's not a real number, so they're not gonna have an issue with it. They contacted me immediately, and they said to me, look, we get complaints about you all the time, but you've never broken the terms of service, so we can't kick you off. However, you just posted this phone number, and because you posted this phone number, at the end of the day, you're not gonna have a Twitter account anymore. And they told me before I got kicked off of Twitter, it wasn't a phone call. Excuse me. It was an email. The phone call was the year before, but they sent me an email, and they let me know. They were like, look, you posted this phone number. We have to kick you off. So this idea that I got kicked off for harassing a black woman. No, I got kicked off because the black woman. Black woman who said I was harassing her had people calling my phone. Right. In my family, I don't know if she had people do that, but people was doing that on her behalf. And I responded in a way that was emotional, and I let my emotion get the best of me. And I posted it because I was so upset at people falsely accusing me of doing this, that I was in a space of like, look, this is happening to me. Y'all say I'm doxing people. I'm the one getting doxed. I'm the one getting death threats. You know what I'm saying? I still get death threats to this day. It's not as often as it was in 2020, but I get people calling my phone, sending me emails, saying all types of wild shit all the time, you know? And I would like to believe it's mostly white supremacists doing it. But as evidenced by what I just told you, sometimes it's our own. You know what I'm saying? Cause the guy who made the video, he was black.

[B]

Mm. I don't understand them. I don't understand the black jumpers at all. That shit is nuts. Tell me something you've read recently. Last six, nine months. That 12 months. That really impacted you.

[A]

I haven't read anything Really? I listened to audiobooks, my podcast, whenever I was.

[B]

If you listen to an audiobook, I'll count that as reading.

[A]

But it's like I'm listening to audiobooks for people I'm interviewing. I've done that. Like, I go listen to someone's audiobook while I'm prepping for an interview. I've gone that I've been reading through the Quran lately.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's been interesting.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like what?

[A]

Just because I've never read the whole thing.

[B]

Like, what's blowing your mind?

[A]

How it's very much based in this Arabic society from back then, but how these lessons, how it's very much about more than the other holy texts about, like day to day, you know, taxes and how you deal with this person. It's about just sort of. It's a lot of business transactions, interactions in that book.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like how you. How. Like how Muslims say Islam is a way of life. The Quran supports that argument. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Okay. What else?

[A]

I mean, that's really it. I mean, it's a lot of flowery, flowery language. It's very poetic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The interactions between men and women are interesting.

[B]

I know you. I mean, I think we get older and it's harder to sit down and pull through a book. Go through a book. But let's go back further. Like books that you hold in your own heart of, like, these are like really central text to me.

[A]

Malcolm X, Autobiography of Malcolm X. The Alchemist. Apollo Coelho, who I used to follow on Twitter. I like Pimp by Iceberg Slim.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

I like that one. Breath, Eyes, Memory.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I named a song after that, Breath Ice Memory. There's a new song on my album named after Breath Ice Memory. Octavia Butler stuff.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like Wild Seed and all that type of stuff. A Lesson before Dying. That's a good one. Ernest. Ernest Gaines.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's a good one. I don't know.

[B]

Okay. I mean, the autobiography of Malcolm X was revolutionary for me in college. And then when I read Manning Marable's biography, I read that too. That was extremely powerful.

[A]

Yeah. Some of the family didn't like that.

[B]

No, I understand. And I understand, you know, and it was like, we see where the autobiography was meant to set him up to look like a certain. And the biography is like, holy shit. He is an incredible person. All the stuff in the autobiography is not true. And there's other things that they would have never talked about that are. But he's still an incredible person.

[A]

I appreciate the humanization of Our icons. I like to see Wartin all. It allows us to understand that we can always be better.

[B]

There's a moment in the Manning Marable book where there's an NYPD cop who's listening to him. They're wiretapping him, and the cop is listening for two or three months, and he's like, well, first of all, he doesn't do anything wrong. And also, he actually is making a really good point, you guys. We should be supporting him and this would be better for all of us. So he convinced somebody who was paid to find out dirt on him. He convinced them even though he didn't know they were there.

[A]

That's real power. That's that black power, right?

[B]

Yeah, that's fucking true.

[A]

Yeah. Malcolm is definitely a hero and a standard bearer.

[B]

So I do want to hear about. If you'll talk about your revenue streams. You don't have to say specifically what the numbers are, but as a recording artist who does multiple things. Can you say my number one stream is X? Right? Your number one stream is touring.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Touring is number one. Number two would be the various record deals. I get to put out albums.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

And then that's really it. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's really all I could depend on.

[B]

Songs from the past.

[A]

Synx I'm fighting for all that right now. I'm fighting for a lot of the stuff from my past that makes a lot of money. I'm being told that I don't own. I disagree with that assessment.

[B]

Does Yassine own those records?

[A]

Some of them. You know, Yasin and I overlap when it comes to the Blackstar thing, and we're still trying to liberate the Blackstar.

[B]

Album and prove you two don't own the Blackstar.

[A]

We do, but other people disagree with that.

[B]

The label disagrees with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. That's a difficult issue.

[A]

Yeah. I think we're gonna come up roses on it, though. I think we're gonna win this one. I think that what I do with Blackstar and even some of those early stuff is super obvious. When I look at the contracts and I look at what was said and what was promised, it's super obvious that I own these things. It's just nobody wants to go up against a behemoth like Universal.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I've had difficulty finding the right lawyers and the right legal team and having the money to pay these legal teams. I've had difficulty finding someone who's gonna take on that case for me. And that's Been a year of fight. For me, that's been years. So now we're starting to make some headway on that.

[B]

How much do you think they owe you?

[A]

To me, it's not even about whether or not they owe me. You know, these record labels are gonna. The Blacks Dirt album, they're not gonna get away with saying that's not right. Recouped. But these other albums, they might be able. They're gonna try to get away with saying these albums are not recouped. Beautiful Struggle, Eardrum Reflection, Eternal quality. You know, because of the marketing and the videos and stuff. And then, you know, those. Those sales slow down a little bit, and then streaming takes over. And, you know, but, you know, like, quality has. Get by on it. You can't tell me that's not recouped. You know what I'm saying? Like, so I'm like, these are the fights I'm having.

[B]

I mean, you are completely disadvantaged in these fights because they know the actual numbers, and, you know, that's exactly right.

[A]

And the onus, like, I have to, like, go jump through hoops and find someone who looks like them and speaks their language for them to even have a conversation with me, for me to even try to get the numbers. I try to do it on my own. And it used to be soundscan. Soundscan changed their name to Luminate and I. And in order to get you to go to illuminate website and to type in and figure out, you know, what's my sound, how many records have I sold? You have to fill out a questionnaire, and then they'll have to get back to you. You have to become a member. And then in the questionnaire is like, why do you want to know this? One of the questions on the questionnaire was, how many people are employed in your company? You need to know how many people are employed in my company. I need to have a company for me to know how many records I sold. Like, it's crazy. So it's like, it's definitely stacked against the artist.

[B]

Somebody told me once that being a recording artist is like, your boss gets your paycheck and you don't get to see it, and they give you the amount of money out of your paycheck that they think they can get away with giving you.

[A]

That's accurate. Just now, before I came in here, I signed a document. I had to send my official ID and like, my ID number so I could see so that I could give universal permission to show me my royalty statement. It was like a whole, like, I'VE been on the email with this all day, so it's moving. It's moving. But this is like. This is the first time it's been moving in my whole career. But, yeah, to your point about revenue stream, part of my focus nowadays is to not to stop the grind, get off the rise and grind. My whole thing is go get another show, go get another deal, perform, show up in the flesh. Slow down. Y'all still haven't caught up with all this dope shit I put out already and all that. Like, let me go figure out. Let me go collect all these checks that I have coming to me. Like, let me get all that revenue stream from all that old music coming in the same. Same place. My later music last five to ten years, I own most of that. Most of that's through givote media. I know where most of that money is. But that early stuff, which is actually the more popular stuff, it's a fight.

[B]

Mm. There's not a recording artist who's not in some fight with their label.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Andy DeFranco. You know, maybe she's doing all right.

[B]

I ask everybody who comes on the show, what does being black mean to you, and how does it show up in the work?

[A]

That's a great question. I've been questioning what black is more recently. I'm in Black Star. I was raised in a culturally nationalist household. I've always identified as black. I feel like I'm always gonna identify as black for the rest of my life. But as you get older, you learn more about race being a social construct, and you learn what we really are. Like, there's no. We're not biologically black. So as you start to question these things, and for me, blackness means being part of a culture, a member of a tribe of people who are displaced and lost. And what connects us is, like, the Africans all over the diasporas, that we don't know our history, we don't know where our people are from. We don't have those connections. So this word black connects us, and it's inconvenient. It's not perfect, it's not optimal, but it's what we got. The social construct of whiteness said that blackness is evil. So we flip that and we use it as a point of pride. And so when I see someone who's in Africa, who's in South America, who's in Asia, who's in Europe, and they have to check that box on the census that says black, I know that there's a Piece of their struggle that I identify with. And that's what blackness is to me. So I, you know, but personally, I'm starting to identify more as a member of the human family, more as an African. You know what I'm saying? But like, blackness connects me with the diaspora.

[B]

Why are you saying you're growing in that direction?

[A]

I just feel like it's more accurate, Hume.

[B]

Cause I know you're very proud to be black.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I'm proud to be black because it's a human thing to do. You know, it's like you say being pro black is being pro human. It's the same thing. I'm pro black because it's the most human thing I can do. I'm pro women, pro gay people, pro disabled people, pro poor people, pro all marginalized people. Cause that's the most human thing I can do.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

[A]

Yes, sir.

[B]

Anything else you want to talk about?

[A]

Let's talk more about Jaguar, right? No, I'm just playing. I'm just playing. I'm just playing. I'm just playing.

[B]

Let's platform her some more.

[A]

I'm just playing. I'm just playing. We're not gonna be in that news cycle this week.

[B]

Thank you. That was awesome.

[A]

No, thank you. I do wanna mention because we talked a little bit about the confidence. Annoying. But we didn't talk about the fact that it was produced by J. Rolls, which you did say off camera. You like that. I'm doing these one producer albums.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And J. Rolls, he produced Brown Skin lady and Shout out to High Tech. Because I think J. Rolls is super inspired by high tech. J Rolls beach is so dope. Cause he been trying to catch high tech this whole time. But he produced Brown Skin lady, which is foundational to my career. Lone Catalyst is a group that he had with Jay Sands and did very well. He does house music. He has a group with John Robinson called J.R. but what's most important about him is that he's in the hip hop academic space. He's a professor at the Ohio State University.

[B]

The Ohio State.

[A]

The.

[B]

I have to say that yes, for sure.

[A]

The Ohio.

[B]

Yes, for sure.

[A]

And instead of a desk, he has turntables.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

And it's just really dope to see like a PhD level hip hop professor.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

At the Ohio State University. That could still make them slaps.

[B]

Who are you working with on your next album?

[A]

I have a bunch of next albums. I have an album almost completed with Bun B. Shout out to the trilogy. Very excited about this album. We don't have a home for this album yet, but we're working on that. And then I have an album that I do have a home for. Shout out to my whole Fat Beats crew with Large Professor. So that's my next record. Large professor, who I'm actually gonna go meet right now.

[B]

That really takes the vibe back. Yeah, right.

[A]

Large professor is man. Large professor, this was a guy who was like, integral to the hip hop culture. You know, making beats for working with Tropical Quest. The main source, early stuff he did with Rakim. Eric being Rakim and stuff. But here's a guy who was just rocking the afro and the glasses.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Wasn't a flashy guy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In the era where hip hop was getting more flashy. And I appreciate that about him.

[B]

I talked to Nas about him and I've talked to Large professor about Nas. Cause he was very serious guy.

[A]

He's a very serious guy.

[B]

He's a no small talk sort of guy. So when he first met Nas, it was like, nas is still coming up. And Nas is like, hey, how you doing? And he's like. And he didn't talk to him until Nas went in the booth. It's bad of rhyme. And then he was like, oh, now, thank you.

[A]

It's funny with that. Cause like, even with when we had. We got this deal, we would work on these records and I would send him, like, I would demo stuff up and send it to him or text him, and I'm not getting no response, you know? And I'm like. And I'm starting to feel like, did he not like the song? Like, did I say something wrong in the lyrics? This and that. And then like one day I texted him, like months later. Cause you don't want to be a bugaboo. And I was like, wait a couple months. I texted him and he called me. He said, yo, I'm not a text type, dude. He was like, if you want to reach me, you got to call me. And I'm like, oh, that's what it was. All right, now we're off to the races. Now. I know to pick up you old school like that. Like, don't text, call. Most people in today's era, don't call or text.

[B]

Right, right, right. It's the opposite, Right? Thanks so much to Talib for a great interview and thanks to you for listening. Toray show gives you fuel to power your dreams. Because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. Maybe this show can help I'm on TikTok orayshow, I'm on Instagram orayshow, and I'm on Twitter, Oregon Torrey shows written by me, Torre and produced by Ashley Hobbs. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our booker is Ray Holiday, and we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back next Wednesday with more amazing guests because the man can't shut us down.