The Fall of Diddy

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Fall of Diddy The Touré Show hosted by DCP Entertainment

Episode Title: The Fall of Diddy
Release Date: March 12, 2025
Hosts: Touré and Yoruba Richen

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Introduction to the Documentary

In this compelling episode of The Touré Show, host Touré engages in an in-depth conversation with Yoruba Richen, co-director of the HBO documentary The Fall of Diddy. The documentary meticulously explores the rise and dramatic decline of Sean Combs, popularly known as Diddy, shedding light on his immense cultural influence and the shadow of allegations that have marred his legacy.

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Overview of "The Fall of Diddy" Documentary

Yoruba Richen describes the documentary as a "powerful journalistic" piece that delves into Diddy's career from its inception to its shocking downturn. The film not only chronicles his achievements but also brings to the forefront the serious allegations of trauma, assault, and violence associated with him.

Quote:
Yoruba Richen (02:37): "It's a deeply researched, journalistic, serious, fair piece."

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Diddy's Influence and Cultural Impact

Touré emphasizes Diddy's role as a pioneering cultural influencer, often regarded as the "first influencer" before the advent of social media. His contributions to music, fashion, and business are highlighted, showcasing how he became a millionaire and then a billionaire at a remarkably young age—a rarity among Black entrepreneurs.

Quote:
Touré (03:00): "Puffy is an incredible cultural influencer. He was doing that before there was social media."

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Allegations and Controversies Surrounding Diddy

Sexual and Physical Assaults

The documentary brings to light numerous allegations against Diddy, including sexual and physical assaults spanning decades. Survivors and those close to him recount harrowing experiences that contrast sharply with his public image.

Quote:
Touré (04:37): "These allegations are horrific."

The "Freak Offs" and Party Culture

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the infamous "freak offs," intimate parties that were more exclusive and reportedly involved questionable activities. The terminology varies, with media referring to them as "freak offs" while insiders like Phil Pines termed them "wild king nights."

Quote:
Yoruba Richen (00:27): "Puff called them wild kings."

Touré elaborates on the organized nature of these events, including the extensive cleanup required post-parties, hinting at the possible misconduct that occurred.

Quote:
Touré (33:56): "We show in the piece text messages asking for materials, Astroglide, baby oil... sometimes there was blood."

The Cassie Tape and Its Impact

The release of a tape allegedly depicting Diddy in compromising situations with Cassie has intensified public scrutiny. Touré and Yoruba discuss the emotional and cultural ramifications of this revelation, noting how it has galvanized more individuals to come forward with their accounts.

Quote:
Yoruba Richen (16:51): "When the Cassie tape comes out, now everybody has to pay attention and get involved emotionally."

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Filmmaking Process and Challenges

Yoruba Richen shares insights into the documentary's development, including the timing of its production relative to the unfolding allegations. The emergence of the Cassie tape during their work significantly influenced the direction and depth of the project, necessitating adjustments to incorporate new revelations.

Quote:
Yoruba Richen (17:00): "We started on this about a year... almost a year and a half ago, so before Cassie's lawsuit came out."

Touré discusses the challenges of verifying allegations and determining which stories to include, especially in a rapidly evolving situation marked by legal proceedings and public outcry.

Quote:
Touré (20:29): "We have to figure out what's important to put in and what's going to make it."

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Ethical Considerations in Documenting Controversial Figures

The episode delves into the ethical dilemmas faced by filmmakers when portraying influential figures accused of heinous acts. Yoruba reflects on the difficulty of balancing Diddy's cultural contributions with the negative allegations, particularly within the Black community where Diddy was seen as a symbol of Black excellence.

Quote:
Touré (51:54): "Part of the work that I want to do is to hold people accountable, is to give voice to people who are marginalized."

Yoruba emphasizes the importance of not shying away from critiquing powerful individuals, regardless of their status within the community.

Quote:
Yoruba Richen (52:03): "We shouldn't be like, 'I don't want to say something bad about a Black person because you have told the truth.'"

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Future Projects and Conclusion

Touré shares his upcoming projects, including another documentary focusing on Jack Whitten, an influential Black abstract artist. This shift from investigating figures like Diddy to celebrating artists underscores Touré's commitment to diversifying his storytelling and honoring different aspects of Black culture.

Quote:
Touré (60:55): "I am doing a documentary about a very influential Black abstract artist, Jack Whitten."

The episode concludes with reflections on the impact of The Fall of Diddy and the ongoing pursuit of truth and accountability within the entertainment industry.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Yoruba Richen (02:37): "It's a deeply researched, journalistic, serious, fair piece."
• Touré (03:00): "Puffy is an incredible cultural influencer. He was doing that before there was social media."
• Yoruba Richen (00:27): "Puff called them wild kings."
• Touré (16:51): "When the Cassie tape comes out, now everybody has to pay attention and get involved emotionally."
• Yoruba Richen (52:03): "We shouldn't be like, 'I don't want to say something bad about a Black person because you have told the truth.'"
• Touré (60:55): "I am doing a documentary about a very influential Black abstract artist, Jack Whitten."

---

Conclusion

The Fall of Diddy serves as a poignant exploration of how immense success and cultural influence can coexist with deeply troubling personal conduct. Through intense interviews, verified accounts, and meticulous research, Touré and Yoruba Richen present a narrative that challenges listeners to reconcile Diddy's contributions with the gravity of the allegations against him. This episode not only sheds light on Diddy's complex legacy but also underscores the broader implications of power, accountability, and representation within the Black community and the entertainment industry at large.

Transcript

[Toure]

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[Yoruba Richen]

Max one offer per account. Leo, let's talk about that for a second because you break down their freak off is a media term. Puff called them wild kings.

[Toure]

That's. Yes, that's what it seems to be. Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

Wow.

[Toure]

Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yes.

[Toure]

And Cassie in her lawsuit called him freak off. So, you know, okay. But yes, they were referred to as wild king knights when Phil was working for him and Phil was his assistant. Um, and so, yeah, distinguish between the big celebrity, celebrity, you know, events, parties, and these smaller, intimate affairs. He talks about the cleanup that he had to do, you know, the copious amount of baby oil that was he had to clean. He said sometimes there was blood and, you know, it was his job to clean them.

[Yoruba Richen]

It suggests, does it not, a guilty conscience that Puff is asking his assistant to clean up before the hotel staff comes?

[Toure]

Maybe. I never thought of it as a guilty conscience. I just thought of it as like, I don't want to deal with this deter ratio. Okay, though. Detour ratio. Okay, though.

[Yoruba Richen]

That might be the best question I've ever been asked.

[Toure]

You's a phenomenal person. I mean, you. Legendary. I am a fan of you, my brother.

[Yoruba Richen]

The Fall of Diddy is a powerful journalistic documentary on HBO that takes you through the beginning, the middle, and this shocking, wild end of the career of Diddy. Yorba Ritchin is one of the co directors of this piece, which is awesome. We get into how she made it, who they tried to get, and what really happened at those freak offs. Let's get into it. It's Yoruba Richen, co director of the Fall of Diddy on Toure show Yerba. Welcome.

[Toure]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Yoruba Richen]

It's an extraordinary documentary.

[Toure]

Oh, thank you.

[Yoruba Richen]

I've watched the whole thing on the edge of my seat. And as much research that I've done to Puffy and the whole story, I definitely learned more. It's a deeply researched, journalistic, serious, fair piece. After doing it, what do you. Who do you think Puffy is?

[Toure]

Well, I think that Puffy is a incredible. Was an incredible cultural influencer. He's called by many people the first influencer. You know, before there was social media, he was doing that. He was an incredible curator of culture, of music, he of fashion, and, you know, became a millionaire, then a billionaire very quickly and very young age. And we have few black billionaires. You know, at the same time, from the allegations and from the stories of people who are around him, who worked for him or who were. Who was. Who were in his orbit, there's a trail of trauma, of assault, of violence, both sexual and physical. So what the series does is look at these events from a very early time, while also tracing his rise as a mogul. Also, you know, charting and featuring people, survivors who have allegations of this kind of behavior from him. I mean, I want to say he's. You know, it's complicated, but it's. You know, these allegations are horrific.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yes.

[Toure]

And so he is somebody. And he's not the only one. You know, there are many people in this society. I can't even, like, single it to the US who are. Who have incredible talent, great fame and money, but who are also, you know, allegedly doing terrible things.

[Yoruba Richen]

I think we have a man who hasn't had a real boss since he was, like, 24 years old. So barely anybody tells him no. He's hedonistic. His whole thing is the party, right? Professionally, I mean, he was a party promoter, right? And then what he did with Bad Boy and Uptown, he's also stoking the party, and it's also a whole party lifestyle and image. This whole thing with Ciroc was we're like the new Rat Pack. We just write the ads. He'd be like, we just got out of the party. The tuxedo are loose. And so we're hedonistic. He's used to power. He wants the party. He wants the party to go further and further and further. And he gets to a point in his life where nobody around him is saying no, and he's able to make people do whatever he wants them to do.

[Toure]

Yeah, that's right. You know, the party. I think it's really important that he started as a part, you know, to remember that he did start as a party promoter. He curated those white parties. I mean, I remember looking at the television and seeing those white parties back in the day and, like, incredible. And also, too, we actually weren't able to get this part in the series, but I really wanted to just have a couple of words about having those parties in the Hamptons at that time. Was also, as a black man, was like, that was also breaking through in this really specific way. It was, you know, it really was. And so anyway, he was. Yes, he was the party person, the curator.

[Yoruba Richen]

It was. But like, is it not we want to be part of white society?

[Toure]

I think it was. We actually Maracampo, in the film, she's the one, I believe. She says, he made the world conform to him. You know, he did not do. He made the world. He made Martha Stewart come to his party. You know, so I don't know if it was being in white society. It was. I'm going to be in this society that has been not welcome and, you know, to. To black people. Historically.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah.

[Toure]

So, you know, and then the. I forgot with your. If you had a question. But. But the. The party was it. The party was it. And then you have the money, no one saying no, people kowtowing, you know, you know, and alleged intimidation, then, yeah, you're gonna do whatever you want.

[Yoruba Richen]

What is some of the most shocking revelations for you?

[Toure]

I think, besides the people, you know, Thalia Graves, one of the people that we feature, and her story is really, really horrid. You know, that kind of, you know, and the detail and the trauma of sexual assault that she still, you know, experiences many years later, that was one of the. It's still hard to watch. You know, that is, you know, still very, very hard to watch. But we also feature in the series a person who witnessed a beating, a public beating of, you know, of one of his girlfriends at Howard when he was like 19, 20, like young. So these kind of early alleged assaults was also pretty shocking to me. And then we also feature Cap Pazon, who was one of his later girlfriends after Cassie in the last few years, who also talks about. Alleges behavior that he said, you know, was, you know, when we saw that Cassie video, he said this was the lowest point, you know, and according to Kat, there was that behavior, that kind of horrific behavior continued when we talk.

[Yoruba Richen]

About beatings, him beating people up at Howard. And I know that there's at least one civil suit that is based in something that happened in 1991 when he's doing CCNY when he's still just an intern.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

So some of the theory has been this is about he acquired power and then used it in this way. And clearly that happened. But clearly we see evidence of the behavior before he had any power at all.

[Toure]

Absolutely. Yeah. No, you know, the CCNY is really interesting to me. I, you know, I remember that. I remember, remember, remember those events and going back and revisiting that story and first off, seeing that footage of that tragedy of people dying, I mean, that was. And not. I didn't realize or I'd forgotten that it was nine people. It was not. It was. That's a large number of people to die. And they're all like 18, 19, 21.

[Yoruba Richen]

I think the oldest was 25, 26.

[Toure]

So, I mean, very young. Very young people. And, you know, we feature the relatives of these. Of, you know, two of the people who. Who died so that. That he was able to continue to rise after those events. You know, also can show a person, I would imagine. Well, I can, you know, because he was legally responsible. They had him respond, legally responsible for. I think it was. I forget what the exact percentage was, but for a certain, you know, percentage. Yeah. In terms of the settlement. But it also can show, like, I can continue and do what I want to do and, you know, move on from that kind of pretty quickly.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah, there's a. We. We have referenced some of the incidents that happened with women, but there are also multiple incidents, sexual incidents that happened with men. There's a theory that he is a repressed gay man. And we want to note that rape is not the same as sex. Right. And so just because you're raping a man does not mean you're having gay sex with him. Right. Like. But a lot of people are trying to come to some point of he was unable to express or felt unable to express his homosexuality in a traditional or acceptable way. So then he expresses it this way in his relationships with men. And Little Rod and many others suggest, he raped me, he groped me, whatever. What do you think about that part of the story that is Puff a repressed gay man?

[Toure]

I think what, you know, what we have to do as journalists and as filmmakers is really separate fact from. From fiction. Right. And there's certain things that we can verify, and that's what we're able to present. So Rod. Little Rod's in the film telling what happened to him. You know, he has a lawsuit about this, and he does allege groping and. And other inappropriate behavior, I think rape.

[Yoruba Richen]

He alleges rape.

[Toure]

And he doesn't allege rape with.

[Yoruba Richen]

He. He. He does. In that he. He says, I took the horse tranquilizer without knowing it, woke up and my anus hurt for two days.

[Toure]

In the lawsuit, you're saying yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

He didn't say it in the film, but he says it in the lawsuit.

[Toure]

In the lawsuit.

[Yoruba Richen]

And he's like, I was not awake when it happened. But there's only one way for me to feel like that.

[Toure]

Yeah. Yeah. So in the lawsuit. So the things that we presented are the things that we could verify in the film. But I think the larger question, obviously, you know, being gay is not illegal, of course. And being. But they're stigmatized still. Of course. Stigmatized, yes. But we're seeing if these allegations are true. We are. What we see from him is an abuse of power on men and women. And that is sexual and physical as well. And verbal, so. And verbal as well. And it's everybody. I mean, that's what yelled at me.

[Yoruba Richen]

I didn't work for you. Twice. He yelled at me. It's over the same issue.

[Toure]

But, like, what was the issue?

[Yoruba Richen]

That's a much longer story. But I might have talked about this with Emma, your co director, but I wrote a review in Rolling Stone. He did not like. I mean, like, this is just a light thing. I just lightly chided him in the review for saying, I don't write rhymes. I write checks. Cause I'm like, this is. I'm a hip hop purist. That is against hip hop law.

[Toure]

Classic Buffy, though, right?

[Yoruba Richen]

And he called me and screamed at me on the phone, and I will ruin your career. And I'm going, you. You don't. Like, I don't work for you. Like, none of these threats are landing, but this is the way. So what. The things he said to Danielle Smith, I'm like, I heard the same shit. So I. I mean. And I know Danielle. I would believe you anyway. But, like, I believe you because I experienced the same thing.

[Toure]

Y. And we know other journalists who have, too. He had a special thing about screaming at journalists and intimidating them.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

But the Danielle Smith story is very powerful.

[Toure]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, she. She. The way that she's, you know, still processing that, she doesn't remember parts of it because she was so traumatized. Yeah, it's intense.

[Yoruba Richen]

But she's the editor in chief, and she's an alpha person, and she's in charge. Like, you were placed in charge. You've been in charge of Vibe for years. And in this moment, she's like, other people are walking me from office to office. Other people are putting me in a cab. Because you're so out of your mind, your body. I'm not able to be the boss in this moment because I'm freaked out that this monster is coming after me.

[Toure]

Absolutely.

[Yoruba Richen]

In a real way. And you have to ask, like, Jesus.

[Toure]

Yeah. For doing your job crazy for doing your job. I'm ready for my life to change.

[Yoruba Richen]

ABC Sundays. American Idol is all new. Give it your all. Good luck.

[Toure]

Come out with a golden ticket. Let's hear it. This is a man's word.

[Yoruba Richen]

I've never seen anything like it. And a new chapter begins. Carrie Underwood joins Lionel Richie, Luke Bryant and Ryan Seacrest on American Idol News Sundays, 8, 7 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu.

[Toure]

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[Yoruba Richen]

You were working on this before the Cassie tape blew up because the story goes to a different level when the Cassie tape comes out. Right. We all knew about it.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

But when the Cassie tape comes out, now everybody has to pay attention and get involved emotionally. But you'd been working on it. So talk about how your work as a director changed. Cause suddenly then people who weren't open to talking suddenly were.

[Toure]

Yeah, I mean, so the project started, the series started development really. When the production company Maxine Productions was finishing Quiet on Set, another series that they produced that my co director, Emma Schwartz directed with Mary Robinson, the head.

[Yoruba Richen]

Of the company, I said to myself, I'm gonna watch a couple minutes of this quiet on this head thing. They were talking about it. Four hours later, it's 4 in the morning. And I'm like, I can't stop watching. This is insane.

[Toure]

Totally. I keep talking totally insane. So they started working on. So they were finishing quite on set, and some folks in the sort of Diddy universe, they were contacted by them and started to understand that some people were gonna start speaking, that there may be a federal investigation. And so they started on this about a year, I guess it was almost a year and a half ago, so before Cassie's lawsuit came out. And so they started doing the development work on this and figuring out, you know, watching this and figuring out. I came on as a co director early in 2024, and at that point, you know, then soon after, things did start, you know, developing fairly rapidly. You know, the raid was the first thing. The. Then the Cassie video and then his rebuttal a couple days later, and then the arrest. So it certainly changed and affected our series. I mean, in myriad ways. So, for example, with each development you just mentioned, more people were willing to come forward because they wanted to be a part of accountability. There's safety in numbers.

[Yoruba Richen]

They felt safer when there's safety in numbers in trouble.

[Toure]

Right. And I think safer as more people started to talk.

[Yoruba Richen]

Right.

[Toure]

You know, so people. You started to see, people on the news, you started to see, you know, so people started to talk because, you know, they wanted accountability. This. This person who, you know, had allegedly gotten away with so much for so long, the dominoes were starting to fall. So that was one thing.

[Yoruba Richen]

So did you find, like, our calls are being returned?

[Toure]

Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

Or people are calling us saying, I'm open to talking now?

[Toure]

Yeah, yeah, both. Both. And then it also changed. Obviously, you know, we have a set amount of time. We've, you know, we have this set amount of episodes. We have a timeframe in which we have to produce. So it changed, you know, our focus. Like, how were we. And that was just an editing process, right. With our editors. How much could we stay on, you know, this one topic? How, you know, how long could we be in his reality TV phase when we knew we had to get to, you know, the, you know, so those kinds of issues, which are, you know, always, always challenging when you're making a film, but even more challenging when these developments are happening.

[Yoruba Richen]

Well, as a director, you're on the story and major front page things are happening in your story. Are you like, oh, my God, like, the ball is bouncing in our direction over and over?

[Toure]

Yeah, no, it's. I mean, it's. You're required to follow it and to, you Know, to assess how it affects your film, your series. Because there's a lot that comes out. Right. And there's, you know, there's a process that we have to go through and figuring out what's important to put in and what's going to make it. Because things, you know, we are in a time where we're bombarded by things constantly through social media, 24 hour news, all the, all the, all the things. And so we have to figure out as filmmakers and as production, you know, what is what. What advances the story. What advances the story that we are making.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like you guys made a decision to ignore the Tony Busby column of news. I felt like that didn't show up in your piece.

[Toure]

Yeah. I mean, again, we go through a process of verification and you can't verify those. And there are things that we can verify. So, yeah, they didn't. And, you know, the, the trial is starting in May. I think that there will be more that will be revealed and we will continue to follow it.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah. Oh, do you think more episodes?

[Toure]

Well, we'll continue to follow the story and see, we're on the case, so.

[Yoruba Richen]

Still possibly you might do more.

[Toure]

We're continuing to follow because she got her legs. This is what I'm saying.

[Yoruba Richen]

Who were some of the folks who you kind of really put effort into getting who you couldn't?

[Toure]

Well, we tried. We really tried to get the people who were in his inner circle. We did.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah.

[Toure]

We reached out to. We reached out to many people. We got some people in his inner circle. You know, we have, in the film we feature, you know, his first publicist. We feature, you know, early bad boy songwriters. We feature, you know, the former chef who tells her story. So we got some people in those circles, in those inner circles.

[Yoruba Richen]

We're all, all of us as journalists, we're getting like the third layer. Right. Well, where's the artists? Where's Fonzworth Bentley?

[Toure]

Well, where have you seen them?

[Yoruba Richen]

Right. No, they're right. Right. I mean, like, I don't know if, you know, Natalie, who was his assistant for a long time. I'm like, she knows where bodies are buried.

[Toure]

Like, again, I think we're gonna see things in the, in the trial that we haven't seen yet. Oh, and I just also wanna say we also feature his childhood friend.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah.

[Toure]

Tim Patterson.

[Yoruba Richen]

That was a really valuable interview to really unpack a lot of.

[Toure]

He wasn't early. Yes, yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

That was really powerful one that put in a lot. So fonzworth. Specific people are like, where is Fonzworth, Ben?

[Toure]

Where is he?

[Yoruba Richen]

Must know what's really good.

[Toure]

What I think, again, I think things will be revealed in the trial. There are, you know, things. Mara, our, you know, our commentator in the film, she says that. That. Which was a surprise to me just because I didn't know. But it makes sense that. That, you know, jurisdiction that that is. That has the case against him. No, it's the 9th or whatever. Whatever. That they are like, they have something like 98%, like, conviction rate. Like.

[Yoruba Richen]

Well, all computers do.

[Toure]

Right, right, right, right. So they are, you know, I think there's a lot of evidence, a lot of stuff that's going to come out that we haven't seen. And a lot of people who, you know, we may hear from.

[Yoruba Richen]

Are you saying we. That you and other media couldn't get certain people because they are about to testify?

[Toure]

We did not hear back from many people. And that maybe.

[Yoruba Richen]

And you think that may be why?

[Toure]

Sure, it could be. It could be that they don't want to testify, they don't want to talk. You know, I think that. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, in May, when the trail trial happens, you know, there's a definite possibility that more people will be.

[Yoruba Richen]

There's this core. There's. There's the folks who are suing him. Right. They have.

[Toure]

Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

They have said what they. And some of many of them are artists or producers. Right. So inner circle and then there's like the wider circle. But there's all these people who are like second circle. I'm like, I know you worked for him. I know you were A and R. I know you were assistant. I know you were an artist and you're silent. And there's a lot of people who are maintaining the silence.

[Toure]

Yeah. And over so many decades. Right. So there's so many of those people. Yes, right.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yes.

[Toure]

Yeah, yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

And it's like, what's going on? Why are you protecting. They're protecting him, are they not?

[Toure]

Well, you know what I've also been thinking a lot about is how money, power, influence and intimidation can shield people from accountability. Again, Puffy's not the only one. You know, we've seen this still when.

[Yoruba Richen]

You'Re locked up, even.

[Toure]

Even. I'm just saying, in general, over the years.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Toure]

You know, Puffy's not the only one. You know.

[Yoruba Richen]

You know, the quiet on the set moment of Puff is really creepy.

[Toure]

Which one?

[Yoruba Richen]

Well, he. There is one scene where the boy won't wake up. And for some reason, the other two boys ask him, how do we wake him up? And he says, put a helicopter in his pants. Why would he say that? And they do that. And they're like, it still didn't wake him up. And he's like, use the remote control to turn it on. And I'm like, what are we doing? Why would you consent to telling the little kids, put an out wet. Put something down in front of his pants. Like, what? It's weird.

[Toure]

It's weird. And it's all weird. Yes. And it's weird what we accept, too, right? I mean, that's the other thing that quiet on set does so well. It's like, wow, we're watching this. We're watching. We're watching this. And it's on tv. And, you know, and it's happening, and we're watching it. And to me, that was the, you know, the making the band, you know, with D. Woods and talking about. And seeing that footage and that, you know, this was. And she talks about how they were blamed for, you know, and shamed. And we would never accept. I don't think we would accept what we saw on television on how they were treated, how they were fat, shamed, how they were, you know, bullied, basically. I don't think we'd accept that now.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah. You know, I think we are close to the same age. And I remember feeling like as a kid, as a teenager, like, adults yell at you sometimes, right? Your parents, your uncles, your aunts, your coaches, your teachers.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

This life, they yell at you, right? In the Millennial era is like, no, no, no. You was in the Zoomers. You will speak to me with respect because we're not doing that.

[Toure]

Absolutely.

[Yoruba Richen]

But we. So when I saw Puff, like, kind of beating them up on making the bet, like, we watched that in real time, right? As just. I was like, okay. I mean, now I'm like, I guess you shouldn't talk to people. But I was like, but also, too.

[Toure]

Something different when you're working for them. Like, when a boss treats you that way, like that is.

[Yoruba Richen]

You know, bosses kind of treat me like that. Early. Early.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

Not. Not as like. Not like in the 2000s, but like 90s. Like, the boss might yell at you.

[Toure]

And then there's the fat shaming and the. You know, I mean, it's pretty. In a. It's pretty. And the humiliation. It's pretty inappropriate.

[Yoruba Richen]

It. Yes. It felt in line with what was typical in the entertainment business.

[Toure]

Right. And that's what I'm saying, that we accepted it. Then. And you know, these millennials, like, yes, they are like, no, you don't do that. And they, you know, have a good point. You're not. You're not supposed to treat people that way.

[Yoruba Richen]

100%. No. To their credit, they were like, we can fix.

[Toure]

We don't have to take this. Exactly.

[Yoruba Richen]

I know. You know what, What?

[Toure]

And then, of course, sorry, just on the. On the. You know, the. The inappropriate, sexually inappropriate comments to. That were made to Aubrey that Dee woods talks about, you know, so, yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

You know what blew me away? Freddie P. Said he's puff. Addicted to breaking people. And that comment took me. That broke something through for me of understanding him, of understanding him, of, like, I want to control and break people. And, like, he's addicted. So he likes doing it over and over and over. Like, did you see. Do you think you saw any of that in your conversations? Like, that sense?

[Toure]

Yeah. When. Yeah, definitely. I mean, there's a. And I think it's. It's power. I think it's intimidation. Yeah, absolutely. If, you know, the experiences that people had, I think they did feel broken, you know, for sure.

[Yoruba Richen]

I see a question that will sort of also touch on your sense of ethics as a director, because Russell Simmons knows him very well. Right. Andre Harrell knows him very well, but he's not with us anymore. Right. I mean, do you think about interviewing Russell in spite of the crap, the horrific crap that he's part of that he's done, or do you say, no, we don't even want to see Russell, even though he probably has stories and insight. Will he. Will he say something that. Probably not, but he probably has stories and insight that nobody else has because he kind of mentored Puff in a way, along with Andre.

[Toure]

Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, Russell Simmons is. Has his own horse to bear or whatever. You know what I mean? And I don't know if we could, you know, if it. I don't think it really makes sense to have him commenting on somebody who's. Yeah, I don't. I don't think so. So it was not somebody that came up as a. As somebody that we wanted to talk to. The gift. You know, we want to get people who have, like, real insight who are who, you know, like, who are. Who were in his, as we said, in his circle, who have experience with him. And you're right, he does. But I think that, you know, who we featured, who we ended up featuring, were the right people who could tell the story.

[Yoruba Richen]

No, obviously you did. It's an issue That I think a lot of documentarians and historians may start to come up, especially in this era when we've been putting a huge spotlight on horrific people and canceling them or excommunicating them. But they might have some part of the history of a given moment that they could share. And we're like, so are they banished also with all their information too? And maybe they should be.

[Toure]

Yeah. And I think, how would the audience take it, you know, well, I would.

[Yoruba Richen]

Be so triggered to see him and, you know, for 100%. And I'm like, I'm trying to tell the story of Puff. I can't tell the story without mentioning Russell.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

But if he showed up in your thing, I'd be like, I don't want to see you. I'm turning it off. I'm so mad at you.

[Toure]

Yeah. You know, Andre Harrell would have been obviously amazing to, to have talked to.

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[Toure]

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[Yoruba Richen]

I know that people want to know what happened at the Freak Offs. Talk about the work you did to try to get detail on what happened in those situations.

[Toure]

Yeah, well, one thing that, you know, we were talking about earlier, that I think it's important to distinguish between those huge white parties with the celebrities and all that. The freak offs or Wild King nights, as our interviewee Phil pines. That they were called that.

[Yoruba Richen]

Let's talk about that for a second. Because you break down their freak off is a media term. Puff called them wild kings.

[Toure]

That's. Yes, that's what it seems to be. Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

Wow.

[Toure]

Yes. Yes. And Cassie in her lawsuit called him freak off. So, you know, okay. But yes, he, He. They were referred to as wild king knights when Phil was. Was working for him and Phil was his. His assistant. And so, yeah, distinguish between the big celebrity, celebrity, you know, events, parties, and the smaller intimate affairs. And from what Phil Pines tells us in our fifth episode, he tells us that how organized these were, we show in the piece text messages asking for materials, Astroglide, baby oil. And they would happen fairly consistently often, I think. What does he say in the. In the piece? I believe, you know, it could be a couple times a week. I believe a couple times a week or a month. I have to go back. I don't remember exactly what he says.

[Yoruba Richen]

We had sort of, as a media community established these things lasted two to three days.

[Toure]

Yes. I think they could last an evening and go for. Yes, for a couple days.

[Yoruba Richen]

Hard to do. Hard to do it a couple times a week.

[Toure]

I don't know if they always lasted two or three days. I have to go back to see exactly what he says. But he says it in the piece about how frequent these would happen. They were sometimes with people who would come back and sometimes new people. He talks about the cleanup that he had to do, the copious amount of baby oil that was. He had to clean. He said sometimes there was blood and, you know, it was his job to. To clean them.

[Yoruba Richen]

It suggests, does it not, a guilty conscience that Puff is asking his assistant to clean up before the hotel staff comes and cleans up?

[Toure]

Maybe I never thought of it as a guilty conscience. I just thought of this like, I don't want to deal with this. And.

[Yoruba Richen]

Well, Puff doesn't have to deal with it either. Yeah, but typically we walk out of a hotel room and leave a tip.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

And he's like, no, I need my assistant to clean.

[Toure]

Right, right, right.

[Yoruba Richen]

I don't want them to see what he did.

[Toure]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, that makes sense. And there were, I think Phil talks about too, that there were. Yeah, he didn't, you know, there were times at the hotel he was, you know, not welcome back.

[Yoruba Richen]

Did Phil or others talk about the acquiring of the prostitutes? Because a critical part of the freak off was that General White was a male prostitute would have sex with Cassie while Puff is watching.

[Toure]

Right. That was definitely in the Cassie lawsuit. Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

Which is a thing in a certain community. This has not been outed. Like most people don't know. Some people do that.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

So it's, it's. But I mean, it sounds crazy.

[Toure]

Yeah. I mean, Phil has things, you know, in his lawsuit that he contends. And then again, Things that we, you know, that we were able to verify. And he says that some people, as you said, some people were new people. So those could have been sexual sex workers. And then some were, you know, consistently coming to these wild king nights.

[Yoruba Richen]

Oh, he's putting it at a small, like a, like four, five, six people.

[Toure]

Or even less.

[Yoruba Richen]

Or even less, yeah. Oh, so it might be just Puff, Cassie and.

[Toure]

Well, he wasn't there with. He's after Cassie.

[Yoruba Richen]

He's.

[Toure]

He's after Cassie. Yeah. He's after Cassie. Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

Jesus, I didn't realize that. So, so. But it might be just Puff.

[Toure]

A woman and a sex worker or. Yeah, I think he said to maybe one or two or two, like two other people.

[Yoruba Richen]

Two people beside Puff.

[Toure]

Yes, I believe that's what he said because.

[Yoruba Richen]

Because the public vision is Eyes Wide shut hundreds.

[Toure]

Right? No, that wasn't. He said it was a much more intimate affair.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah. No, I'm like, you had to be super. I went to white parties. Yeah, you had to be super trusted to get to the after party where the crazy shit is like, we have to know you're not going to anything. Is would never invite a journalist. Would that invite a celebrity? I kind of know. Like, I gotta know.

[Toure]

Yeah. And I don't know, you know, still it's not clear to me that these happened right after the white parties.

[Yoruba Richen]

Right.

[Toure]

Like they may have been, you know, separate affairs.

[Yoruba Richen]

Right, right. Well, I spoke to a friend of Cassie's who talked about knowing that she was being pulled into a freak off and that's not connected to a white party.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

So sometimes they happened independent. It wasn't always white party winnows into or in a separate room. It's like that.

[Toure]

A lot of them happen at hotels apparently.

[Yoruba Richen]

Right, right, right. But the white parties would happen at like mansions. Right, right, exactly. But the public mind, it's like they're, you know, I had a lot of people, especially millennials and zoomers who were like, you went to white parties? And I'm like, yeah, I did. Like they. Everybody went to the.

[Toure]

We have. We show the pictures in the footage.

[Yoruba Richen]

It was G rated. I'm there during the day. I might have brought my sister or my wife. It was not a big deal. Right. And then we left.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

I don't know what happened after we left. I mean, I'm told there were situations where, you know, Andre or others might be like, okay, it's probably time for you to leave, you know, Or Puff being like, it's probably time for you to leave and people catching A message. But I don't know. I don't know. I don't, I don't. Nobody was telling me about this stuff.

[Toure]

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. There was that the circle and then the inner circle and then maybe the inner, inner circle.

[Yoruba Richen]

It sounds like the inner, inner circle for sure. And the inner circle that's willing to do that. I'm sure everybody wasn't willing to get down with that. When you saw the Cassie video though, did that change things in your mind, the way it. I mean, I think in the public mind that was like a huge, huge drop off.

[Toure]

It was a huge. I mean, it's so painful to watch that. I mean, I know people who still can't watch it. Yeah, you know, it's really. Yeah. I mean, and we show, you know, people's reaction in the series. It's so painful. Just as a woman, as someone who, you know, and after reading the lawsuit and then seeing, seeing this. Yeah, I think it was a huge. I think that, you know, made people see this is real, this is not. It made a lot of people, you know, see that this is, this is.

[Yoruba Richen]

The reality that she wasn't fighting back.

[Toure]

Yeah, no, that's absolutely.

[Yoruba Richen]

Go into a freeze.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

And that's like, oh, my God.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

Which suggests I've. We've been through this before.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

And that's like, oh, my God.

[Toure]

Absolutely. And we have, you know, two other instances that we, that people tell us in the, in the series of other attacks, assaults on Cassie, besides that one.

[Yoruba Richen]

It's hard, it's hard to watch when you're doing this interview, an interview with somebody who's telling you about something like this, you know, that's. It's hard.

[Toure]

Yeah, I cried many times, I have to say. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I definitely. It was. Did you interview Talia? Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

And you cried during that?

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

Now when you're crying during that, are you concerned? Are you thinking about, am I emotionally shifting her story because I'm crying?

[Toure]

Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

You know what I mean?

[Toure]

You know, I found, and there's been other interviews that I've done. When I did my Breonna Taylor film, for example, I know it hasn't felt to me that there's an emotional shift. It's felt to me that they, that if the interviewee is, you know, seeing that I'm connecting and that I'm, I'm empathizing, which is what I want to do, obviously, as a filmmaker and an interviewer.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah, no, when you start, I mean, if you're saying emotionally, I'm here for You. I believe you.

[Toure]

Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

I'm with you. I'm. I. That. That's gonna.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

Help her.

[Toure]

Yeah. And I'm a human being, you know, like, having someone walk through, you know, when you're seeing their pain and their trauma, you know. Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

It's also. When I'm interviewing you, you start crying. I don't want to stop. I want to see it. And I worry if I start crying, you'll stop, because you'll see reflected in, like, oh, I must look like that.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

So stop.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

I was interviewing somebody once. They were talking about a moment when they were suicidal and they had mascara, and I really walked them to, like, the point where I knew they would start crying. And they start crying, and the mascara is going. And the executive producer is like, stop. And I'm like, stop. The person's crying because now she wipes up. And now I'm like, oh, we're in the moment.

[Toure]

We're in the moment, of course.

[Yoruba Richen]

But it's.

[Toure]

And it's so brave for these folks to come forward, for these people to come forward and speak on camera. You know, that this was, you know, the first time she talked about this on camera. You know, Kat, we're so grateful for our participants to share their stories.

[Yoruba Richen]

Have any of them come back and said, you know, I got in trouble because I talked to you and not blaming you. We did the right thing. But then somebody called me, somebody harassed me, somebody bugged, bothered me.

[Toure]

We haven't. We haven't experienced that. People have been very positive about the series, which, you know, again, so grateful that they feel that we told their.

[Yoruba Richen]

Story because there's still a price to pay for speaking out against Puff. Right. Like, even though he's locked up and his powers diminished. Right. There's still loyalists who will say or do things. Right. Lil Rod is like, I can't really work that much.

[Toure]

Right. He said that on other. Yeah. And other media. You. Yeah. I mean, again, you know, no one that we have. Have interviewed has experienced that. And we're just very proud that we. That they feel good about how we. How we portrayed their. Them and their story.

[Yoruba Richen]

What's the name of your Breonna Taylor movie?

[Toure]

The Killing of Breonna Taylor.

[Yoruba Richen]

Oh, that was the New York Times.

[Toure]

Yes. So that's. That's still available on.

[Yoruba Richen]

We can see that.

[Toure]

Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

What did you uncover about her that wasn't. That situation that wasn't already known?

[Toure]

Yeah. You know, a bunch of things. First of all, one of the things that struck me in making that piece was that, you know, she was someone who. Her killing reverberated, not just, you know, with her mother, but all of the people that she touched. And she touched so many people. So it was really understanding. You know, her cousin, she was a mentor to people that she worked with, you know, a group of this community of friends, you know, going into Louisville. And that was during the height of COVID We drove into Louisville. Louisville was just. It was on fire with the protests, and it was boarded up because of the pandemic. And there were confrontations every night between, you know, the protesters and the police. And I'd never experienced, you know, a feeling like that of a city that was under siege. And so, yes, just. That was really one of the things that really, you know, stuck out to me and that she was. She was. And we knew this. Well, you know, the reason that the police said that they went into her apartment to begin with was that, you know, an ex boyfriend might have been there at Hiding. Hiding drugs. They never found drugs. You know, and even if they did. And I kept saying this, even if they did find drugs, like, everybody deserves a fair trial.

[Yoruba Richen]

Right?

[Toure]

Right. Like El Chapo had his trial. Right. You know, you came in firing. Yes, exactly. I mean, so, you know, it was very hard to.

[Yoruba Richen]

Who fired the first shot film that night? Was it the police or the boyfriend?

[Toure]

Well, it was the they. Now I'm trying. You're making me remember the details.

[Yoruba Richen]

Sorry.

[Toure]

But it was them knocking on the door.

[Yoruba Richen]

Right?

[Toure]

Right. And them saying. And he. The boyfriend saying that he'd not hear them knock.

[Yoruba Richen]

He did not.

[Toure]

Did not. And we interviewed many neighbors, most of whom said that they did not hear anything either. And this is a very small.

[Yoruba Richen]

Neighbor said they didn't hear it.

[Toure]

Yeah, this is a very small, you know, a. Close the building, the apartment. The units are close together. So, yeah, they said they didn't hear anything. And then it was the boyfriend because he thought someone was breaking in.

[Yoruba Richen]

And he's licensed, perceived the door opening.

[Toure]

He.

[Yoruba Richen]

Cause there's no knock, so the door just opens.

[Toure]

Yeah, you're making me remember Diddy.

[Yoruba Richen]

I'm sorry.

[Toure]

You want to get.

[Yoruba Richen]

I know.

[Toure]

I was talking about Diddy. I have to go and knock. And it was. I don't. I don't remember the. If I don't remember. Yeah, it was a no knock warrant. Right. So, yeah, we'd have to go and check. But it was the boyfriend who thought. Ken Kenny, who thought that he was being broke. Yeah, they're being robbed. And he's licensed to license to carry in his home. In his home.

[Yoruba Richen]

I feel like you are like me in that you want your work to have some meaning for black people. Right. And especially when you make a film about Breonna Taylor, like you are doing the work for black people. So how does that relate in the puff situation?

[Toure]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure. I think with, you know, with Brianna, not only did we want to investigate as much as possible how this horrific killing happened and who she was as a person, but we also wanted to. And I'm so happy we did. We wanted to be the record of what happened. You know what I mean?

[Yoruba Richen]

With that story.

[Toure]

With that story? Yes, with that story. With the record of what happened. And I'm so happy we did, because later, you know, when there was no indictment, there were things that the da I'm forgetting his name said. I remember that watching that press conference of black DA that were, like, false. And we knew it because we had done the. We had done the work, you know, like, so. And I was like, I'm. So. I'm. I'm pleased that we were able to be the record, you know, the first on record about what happened with Diddy. You know, we thought it was so important to be nuanced in that in order to tell what happened, you know, how we got to the point where he's sitting in jail on these charges. We also have to understand who he was and what he meant to the culture, you know, and in terms of, you know, it's very, very difficult. It's hard for us to see people who we have admired, who we, you know, so many people in this series say, I wanted to be. I wanted, you know, wanted to be him. He was. He was. He was my symbol of black excellence, you know. You know, we have few black billionaires, you know, and so I think it's also very painful for the black community, especially to see, you know, what's happened to him and to hear these. These stories. Painful to the hip lovers of hip hop, you know, But. And I also knew that as a, you know, director, that it was going to be that it's tough to tell stories that implicate people in our own community. Yeah, you know, that's just a tough thing.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah.

[Toure]

But I. I do believe that, you know, part of the work that I want to do is to hold people accountable, is to give voice to, you know, people who are. Are marginalized. And a lot of times it's. It's victims.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah, no, I. That's exactly right. I think we can tell important stories about our community, which Might be this black person is a monster and hurt these other black people and also white and brown. Whatever.

[Toure]

Absolutely.

[Yoruba Richen]

But, like, we shouldn't be like. Well, I don't want to say something bad about a black person because you have told the truth.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

You have extolled yourself. Right. And the community who was hurt by him by telling the truth about what happened here.

[Toure]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And we have to, you know, do this in all fields, not just in entertainment, politicians, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

[Yoruba Richen]

You know, we have to be big enough to say we can critique ourselves.

[Toure]

That's right.

[Yoruba Richen]

And the individuals within it who are, I mean, part of our monstrous.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

If he, if, if you could interview him, what would you want to talk about? And let's not, let's not do questions, because that was too common. But, like, just question areas that you would want to get into. I want to talk to you about.

[Toure]

Yeah, I want to talk to him about his childhood and how he grew up.

[Yoruba Richen]

Single mom.

[Toure]

Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

Spoiled.

[Toure]

Yeah. How he was treated, how his mom treated him.

[Yoruba Richen]

It seems part of the story, too, is how he treated others because he had multiple paper routes, so he bought other kids. Paper routes. So he was an early business, had four or five kids. Delivering, kicking back. So you're running a capitalist scheme on other kids.

[Toure]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he was a very early entrepreneur. We don't get into that in the series, but yes. How he was, you know, very interested in the origin story and what his thinking was, you know, around. You know, around that. And he talks. We showed a little bit in the series of him saying you about his father. You know, we have his DNA in us. We all have, you know, that DNA in us. I'd love to, you know, talk to him or I'd want to talk to him about, you know, I would also want to know, like, what his thoughts are now. Right, of course. Like, what are his, you know, hearing all these allegations. What, you know, what are his thoughts are now.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah.

[Toure]

So it's like the origin and then now. I mean, I don't know how much, you know, there's been, as you see in the. In the response that we have had from his lawyers, there's been, you know, sort of just blanket denials about these events. So.

[Yoruba Richen]

Yeah. It's kind of strange that we're at a point where he's not being forthcoming about what happened. Right. None of this happened. They're all lies. All of it.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

You know, he's pleading not guilty. I imagine he probably won't take the stand. So he'll just forever say it's all lies. I didn't do any of that.

[Toure]

Again, we have people, not just Puffy, who do that. You know, that's not something that's unusual in our system.

[Yoruba Richen]

No, I know, but I mean, few. There are few people in America who were as big as him as far as influence, fame, and money. And he seems to have wielded that against a gigantic number of people.

[Toure]

Yeah. For decades. For decades. I mean, these allegations go back decades. You know, everybody deserves their day in court. That's their. Our justice system. Right. Innocent until proven guilty.

[Yoruba Richen]

So you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

[Toure]

Yes.

[Yoruba Richen]

That does not mean that you and I need to sit here and say.

[Toure]

Puff is innocent as a journalist. Innocent until proven guilty.

[Yoruba Richen]

But. Well, I think that's an interesting point, because as a journalist, I'm like, we have to bring real world context.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

I cannot talk about. I can't assume he's guilty, but I can't sit here and act like I haven't heard 40 people say detailed, horrific stories.

[Toure]

Absolutely.

[Yoruba Richen]

And we show, you're gonna get convicted. You're never getting out.

[Toure]

And we show that in the series. I mean, that's what we show. These allegations. We. And as I said, verify. You know, we do our work to verify. So, you know, I'm saying legally that he is, you know, a trial will happen and he will be.

[Yoruba Richen]

But, like, when you do your interviews or when you do your voiceover, the word allegedly does not appear over and over and over. We all know the trials to come, and we all know the documentary exists in a world where we all assume he's guilty. Right. You're explaining to the audience the case that they. The audience comes to it assuming he's guilty, and you're just assuming the case.

[Toure]

I would disagree with that. I don't think the audience comes necessarily presuming is guilty. All audiences do. I mean, we've seen a lot of people on social media on, you know, who still don't believe he's guilty.

[Yoruba Richen]

Watch your piece. And still.

[Toure]

I don't know if it was. No, I'm saying. Who came into it saying, you know, I know that. In fact, we do say, you know, when Mara, on the last interview with Phil Pines, you know, these are allegations. And she has to, you know, she says she. She couches them as such. These are allegations that he. That he makes that. That he's making.

[Yoruba Richen]

What do you think we got the Cassie tape from?

[Toure]

Oh, my gosh.

[Yoruba Richen]

I have a theory. You know, I want to hear yours. But I want to hear yours because.

[Toure]

I mean, it had to be. It's, it's. I would presume that it's from obviously some worker who was there. And you know what's interesting about the Cassie tape? I had heard initially 50,000 was paid. And I was like, that is seems so little. But then I heard a hundred thousand more recently.

[Yoruba Richen]

Well, that's how Puff gets it from the hotel for. How do we get it?

[Toure]

Right. But I do, I do, I do think the 50 to 100. No, because 50,000 seems very low.

[Yoruba Richen]

No, that's, that's right. But that's just one. That's one. How does it get it? Because the, the government didn't get it from the hotel.

[Toure]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Yoruba Richen]

No, the government got it from Puff after the raid.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

Then the tape comes out. They got it in the raid and released it.

[Toure]

That.

[Yoruba Richen]

I don't know, to make him look bad. Before they had. Because they hadn't. They had not indicted him yet.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

So after the indictment it would be inappropriate and perhaps illegal.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

But before the indictment it's fine.

[Toure]

So you think that tape was sitting in Puff's house?

[Yoruba Richen]

Yes. CNN does not do the news gathering. Right. Then they would be like, what are you talking about? It's not like the New York Times where they send people out into the field to find stuff. And like, tell me something I don't know. Well, that oil rig is fucked up. Like, oh great, I'll do. CNN does not do that. They don't have time for that. I work there.

[Toure]

I know you did.

[Yoruba Richen]

They don't have time for that. The government gave the tape to cnn.

[Toure]

But you think the government got it.

[Yoruba Richen]

From raiding his house?

[Toure]

Why would you keep that tape?

[Yoruba Richen]

I mean this. In the home of somebody who has a thousand bottles of lube and 700 dildos and tapes of himself. I mean, there's freak off tapes in his house also, which I assume that allegedly. Which I assume. Well, no, I mean, I don't even know. We need allegedly there. Right. I mean, he taped himself and the government confiscated them. And they may play them at trial and that'll destroy him completely. But like that's what I think because where does CNN get it? No, but CNN does not pay for news. They're not gonna pay somebody $50,000 or whatever. I don't know.

[Toure]

That's your theory? You're sticking with it?

[Yoruba Richen]

That's a theory and it makes sense. But just the government trying to screw. Trying to screw him, but not in a wrongful I don't mean screw in sort of a conspiracy way. This is the way the game is played.

[Toure]

Right.

[Yoruba Richen]

That we're gonna make sure the world's jury is against you.

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

And they should be, because this actually happened. They didn't. It's not. AI. He actually did.

[Toure]

Yeah. Well, there's a lot of. Yeah. I mean, it'd be interesting to. To. It's going to be interesting to see what happens.

[Yoruba Richen]

Would you go to the trial?

[Toure]

It's. I don't know if you can. It's definitely no cameras.

[Yoruba Richen]

Right. New York, right?

[Toure]

Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

Right.

[Toure]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

You. So you wouldn't know. You're just. You're just gonna.

[Toure]

Yeah. Following. Yeah.

[Yoruba Richen]

And maybe more episodes. Probably more.

[Toure]

We are on the case.

[Yoruba Richen]

You keep saying that. I want you to say more than on the case because the piece doesn't really finish as far. Right. When I watch. When I watched the fifth episode, I was like, oh, there's another one next week.

[Toure]

They are. They are on this. We are on the case. We are.

[Yoruba Richen]

You're a good politician because this is my.

[Toure]

I wanted to be a politician when I was a kid.

[Yoruba Richen]

You did. What do you want to do next for your next project?

[Toure]

Oh, I'm doing. I have a couple of things that are independent projects that are in development.

[Yoruba Richen]

Can you tell us about one?

[Toure]

Yes. So I am doing something very different than this, which is nice. It's a documentary about a. A very influential black abstract artist.

[Yoruba Richen]

Who.

[Toure]

His name is Jack Whitten.

[Yoruba Richen]

Okay.

[Toure]

I don't know if you've heard of him.

[Yoruba Richen]

No.

[Toure]

He's like, kind of like Afrofuturism. Godfather of Afrofuturism. He came up with the. In the. Came to New York in the 60s, was. Was heavily influenced by jazz, was in that sort of De Koonic and Pollock, like, world. But of course, he was black, so did not get his flowers until many years later. He's not with us. He's not with us. He passed. But MoMA is opening a solo show of his in March. Yes. And his work is amazing. And so. Yeah. So it feels really wonderful to do something like that.

[Yoruba Richen]

No. I bet you need a breath of fresh air after existing in this hell hole. It just. Does it become part of you? Like the way an actor is like, oh, I'm playing.

[Toure]

Oh, no, no.

[Yoruba Richen]

I'm like, admiring this world of rape and assault.

[Toure]

I can't. It can't. I mean, at the same time, I was also finishing my film that I was telling you about, American Coup, about the most successful political insurrection this country has. Known in 1898, which was also, you know, horrid and terrible and the worst of human nature and race and all that. So I'm very happy to be working on the Witten project. And I have other things that are, you know, things that are in development as well. Yeah. Thank you.

[Yoruba Richen]

It all comes up roses.

[Toure]

Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was fun having this conversation.

[Yoruba Richen]

Thanks so much to Yeruba for a great interview and thanks to you for watching. Torre show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into another life. You can make your dreams a reality, and maybe somehow this show can help. I'm on TikTok Torre show and on Instagram Torreyshow. Torre show is written by me and produced by Ashley Hobbs. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our booker is Ray Holiday, and we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back with more amazing guests next Wednesday because the man can't shut us down.