Van Lathan–I’m A Cowboy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Toure Show – Episode Featuring Van Lathan: "I’m A Cowboy"

Podcast Information

• Title: Toure Show
• Host: DCP Entertainment
• Episode: Van Lathan – "I’m A Cowboy"
• Release Date: February 12, 2025
• Description: Touré engages with successful individuals to uncover the secrets behind their achievements, offering insights to inspire listeners on their own journeys.

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1. Introduction to Van Lathan

The episode kicks off with host Torre introducing Van Lathan, a renowned broadcaster and podcaster known for his show "Higher Learning." Torre expresses his excitement about hosting Van, highlighting their long-standing communication despite never having met in person.

Notable Quote:

• Van Lathan [02:00]: "Van Lathan has been an amazing broadcaster and podcaster for a long time. We're thrilled to have him here."

2. Van Lathan’s Role and Philosophy

Van delves into his unique position as a communicator who bridges various demographics. He emphasizes his ability to resonate with the "common man" while simultaneously engaging with intellectuals, stating that his relatability stems from real-life experiences.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [03:54]: "I speak for the common man, but not necessarily the guys that you think I would be speaking for."
• Van Lathan [05:04]: "I never want to say anything that makes you go read a book to understand me."

3. Political Views and the Black Community’s Alignment

A significant portion of the conversation centers around political dynamics within the Black community, particularly their relationship with President Trump and the Democratic Party. Van discusses the complexities and motivations behind Black men’s political affiliations, highlighting a shift driven by perceived stagnation and the search for tangible benefits from their votes.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [10:28]: "Black Americans have been a very central part to the economic, cultural, and social power of America... but they haven't been able to take part in the rewards."
• Van Lathan [11:15]: "Democrats can't specifically campaign for Black people without turning off white voters, which hampers their messaging."

4. Cultural Icons: Beyonce, Prince, and Stevie Wonder

Van and Torre engage in an in-depth discussion about influential artists, particularly focusing on Beyonce's four-album run. Van praises Beyonce's versatility and genre-blending abilities, comparing her to legends like Prince and Stevie Wonder, whom he regards as unparalleled musicians.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [22:13]: "Stevie Wonder is the greatest musician that has ever lived, in my opinion."
• Van Lathan [30:41]: "Beyonce took on different parts of her life every single time... she continued to push genres and genre blend and bend."

5. Music Industry Insights: Drake’s Career

The conversation shifts to contemporary artists, with a critical examination of Drake’s career trajectory. Van discusses the challenges Drake faces in maintaining his cultural relevance and the necessity for him to produce compelling work to remain a contemporary artist.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [50:16]: "Drake's musical formula has a high floor; it’s always listenable, but the expectation is over."
• Van Lathan [54:35]: "He has to come back with music that is pretty close to undeniable, or people are gonna move on even more."

6. Personal Stories: Family and Grandfather Figures

Van shares heartfelt stories about his family, particularly focusing on the absence of grandfathers and the impact of male role models in his life. He reflects on the importance of these figures in shaping his identity and values.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [35:35]: "My family has a grandfather problem... I never had a real granddad."
• Van Lathan [41:07]: "Black men are very concerned with family lineage and legacy, which is often misunderstood and undervalued."

7. Cultural Criticism: The Pause Game and Toxicity

The discussion touches on cultural phenomena such as "the pause game," critiquing its immaturity and underlying homophobia. Van explores the balance between humor and insensitivity, advocating for a more respectful and understanding approach in communication.

Notable Quotes:

• Van Lathan [59:56]: "The pause game in and of itself is immature and homophobic just the way it is."
• Van Lathan [63:34]: "We're socialized in an incredibly toxic misogynist environment... the only thing you can do is commit to learning and being open."

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Van emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and self-improvement. He underscores that no one is exempt from having toxic parts of themselves and highlights the necessity of addressing and overcoming these aspects to foster personal growth and healthier relationships.

Notable Quote:

• Van Lathan [64:38]: "The only thing you can do is commit to learning and being open."

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Key Takeaways

• Relatability Across Demographics: Van Lathan excels in connecting with diverse audiences by speaking from genuine experiences, making complex ideas accessible.

• Political Dynamics: The Black community's shifting political affiliations are influenced by a desire for tangible benefits and dissatisfaction with historical stagnation.

• Cultural Legacy: Van highlights the unparalleled impact of artists like Stevie Wonder and Beyonce, emphasizing the importance of versatility and authenticity in maintaining cultural relevance.

• Personal Growth: Addressing personal and societal toxicity is crucial for individual and community development, advocating for continuous learning and open-mindedness.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a profound exploration of Van Lathan's perspectives on media, politics, culture, and personal development. His candid reflections and insightful critiques provide listeners with valuable lessons on navigating societal complexities while maintaining authenticity and fostering meaningful connections.

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Note: This summary captures the essence of the conversation between Van Lathan and Torre, highlighting pivotal moments and key insights. For a comprehensive understanding and to experience the full depth of the discussion, listening to the actual podcast episode is highly recommended.

Transcript

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[Van Lathan]

The tour ratio okay, though?

[Torre]

That might be the best question I've ever been asked.

[Van Lathan]

You's a phenomenal person. I mean, you legendary. I am a fan of you.

[Intuit Advertiser]

My brother.

[Van Lathan]

The only thing that he has going for him and some of the other guys have going for him is that there's nobody behind him to take it. Pause. There's. There's. You're an idiot.

[Torre]

You're an idiot. I can't believe. Pause. That is a smooth pause. Wait, so did you. Did you think pause as the sentence is forming your brain or. You said it, you heard yourself, and then you're like, I need to make.

[Van Lathan]

Sure nobody behind the tape is crazy. But I think the pause game Shout out to everyone. Shout out to Dame and all of those guys and Harlem guys and everybody. I think the pause game allows me to be toxic in a way that I like being toxic this month.

[Torre]

Van Lathan has been an amazing broadcaster and podcaster for a long time. We've talked a lot, but we've never met. I was so excited to get him to come into the studio and hang out with me. He is an incredible broadcaster. He's doing a show called Higher Learning. Let's get into it. It's my man Van Lathan on Torre.

[Van Lathan]

Van, what's up?

[Torre]

How are You?

[Van Lathan]

I'm good. My man.

[Torre]

Welcome.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what's interesting? It's interesting when a parasocial relationship becomes social. We've talked, we've texted, we've interacted, but we've never met.

[Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you're right. It's parasocial in that I feel I know you.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Torre]

Cause I see you talking at me all the time.

[Van Lathan]

Right, of course.

[Torre]

And you're saying the same from me. Yeah. You walk in the room and I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see him. What's up? Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

What's going on? It's just. It's a weird thing. Like, you've never met someone, but it's like, hey, you've exchanged ideas, and that's how you get to know someone is this exchange of ideas.

[Torre]

I think you're the first person in the history of this show to ask me a question before I ask them.

[Van Lathan]

It's the way it goes. Yeah. You'll see. The ADHD will just jump out. Like, you'll be talking. You'll be talking. All of a sudden, I'll be like, Obi Wan Kenobi. And like.

[Torre]

I wonder why you are here at this point in your career. Like, what have you done? Brought to the table? Like, what are you giving us that? It's like, this is why. Cause you're a consistent voice in our sort of intellectual media landscape. So why are you there?

[Van Lathan]

It's a good question. I think that. What. I don't fit in pretty much any room that I'm in. If you put me in a room with rich people, I'm the poorest one. If you put me in a room with my homies from Baton Rouge, I'm the most successful one. If you put me in a room with intellectuals, I'm the dumbest guy. I'm the guy who's speaking for the common man. And if you put me in a room for the common man, I can seem like an intellectual. And so for me, there's a politic and a way that I communicate that I think people gravitate to because they just know that I'm talking for myself based upon real experiences. And it doesn't matter what room I've been in, if I've been in the room at tmz, if it's at the ringer, or if it's whatever. I'm just kind of a guy speaking for guys, but not necessarily the guys that you think I would be speaking.

[Torre]

So you seem to be able to symbolize the common man or the everyman, in a way, but then articulate it at a higher level.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. I think, in my opinion, I never want to be with. I always want to be relatable. I want to be understood. So I don't want to say anything and then make you go read a book to understand me.

[Torre]

Okay.

[Van Lathan]

I want to translate culture. I want to be able to have gotten something and then deliver it to people to make them more powerful and to make them more. Either entertained or more at peace, whatever. But I never want you to feel like there's something that I understand or know that you can't, because there's absolutely nothing that I know or I have known that you can't know. It's all there for you. And I think that when I'm in a room with people that comport themselves in that way to where they feel like they're privy to different aspects of society or information or whatever, that they're just elevated past people, the fact that I can go back and forth with them, I think that's. I think people get inspiration from that.

[Torre]

Are you a broadcaster in terms of.

[Van Lathan]

What do you mean, am I a broadcaster?

[Torre]

Like, I'm like. Cause you're. Like. I'm not really an intellectual. I don't have a PhD or a master's.

[Van Lathan]

Precisely.

[Torre]

I'm not a comedian. I'm not a. You're. So you're writing a book. But I don't think you. You wrote a book, right?

[Van Lathan]

Wrote a book.

[Torre]

But you wouldn't consider yourself an author, right? Like.

[Van Lathan]

Well, I am an author. Cause I write a book. So. So. So.

[Torre]

But you know what I'm saying.

[Van Lathan]

I get it. I get it. So this is the thing. I think a lot of those labels are artificial.

[Torre]

Okay?

[Van Lathan]

I think people in their lives, they live their lives and they try to get as much information as they can, but they almost have to be multifaceted in what it is that they do. There are not a lot of people out there that have. My man Penil Joseph, right, brilliant, has dedicated his life to the study of the civil rights movement. If one person that. I would tell people that if you want to understand black power, civil rights, it would be Peniel Joseph, who is down there at the LBJ school in Austin. Right? Most people don't have the ability to dedicate their entire lives to the study of civil rights and black power. So they have to defer to an intellectual like him to contextualize it. Most people are more like me. They have an opportunity to be casually educated in A lot of different things. Maybe they don't have the opportunity to have read as much as I've read because their jobs don't call for it. But you relate to them more if you talk to them like they're people and not like they're either subjects or students. And I couldn't talk to them like subjects or students because I don't have an intellectual mandate. And that's not to say that Peniel does that. That's just to say that a lot of times when people are talking to people they consider to be intellectuals, they get disillusioned because they don't really understand, like, what's going on. And if you say, fuck me, I'll just say fuck you back, like, I'll talk to you like we talk in the barbershop or like we communicate on the basketball court or like we communicate in any of these other forums when people aren't watching. So if you say fuck me, it's fuck you. If you ask me a question, I'll answer it. And the answer doesn't in any way have to make you feel good or. Or make you feel bad. It's just, like, legitimately, what I think.

[Torre]

Do you think that black men in general are more open to Trump than we were in 2016? I know that was a media narrative. Do you think that that's accurate? I feel like we're perhaps not fully as angry as we were in 2016.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. So obviously it's true. But the deeper question to me isn't that it's true, it's why it's true. It's not necessarily that black men, in my opinion, are more open to Trump, Trump himself. There are parts of Trump that I think certain brothers gravitate towards. Right. I think that when you're selling an idea of American success to people, you sell it in this very brash way. The overwhelming majority of black men that I know supported Kamala Harris, and they support more liberal policy in general. But if you. You know, there is a conservative streak that exists in the black community. We have to contend with that. But I think it wasn't about what they did accept as much. As much as it was about what they don't accept anymore. And I think what they don't accept anymore, a lot of the brothers that I talk to, is the idea that they're actually getting something for their vote now.

[Torre]

Right. Something tangible will come to them.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Torre]

A check, a something. Right.

[Van Lathan]

Right. What they're looking at is generations of political and economic stagnation, and they're saying, okay, let's try something different.

[Torre]

But it's also like on the right, it's like politics flows through me, right? And what I want and how I function in the world. And so I want something direct that I can hold in my hand and say, I got this for my vote. And Democrats in the left are more like, we need to take care of everybody. Here's like a big thing, a big idea that takes care of lots of people. Does it help you specifically? Maybe, maybe Obamacare changed your life. Maybe it didn't, but it changed a lot of people's lives. And that's a general. But you may not say, well, I benefited from that.

[Van Lathan]

Well, what they do is they the problem that exists with the Democrats and the left and the. When I say the left, the left is very broad. The Democrats are very targeted. It's a political party with all different types of motivations. They can't really campaign on what they'll do for black people because they'll turn off white people. Yes, there is something reflexive that happens with white people to where and I'm sorry, they just don't want a nigga having shit. So if you tell me right now that you're gonna do something and it's specifically to help black people, they'll say, well, why should black people get anything specifically? And there's an answer to that question. But it's a non starter because they've been trained in America that this is their country and everything else that anybody gets is what they give to them.

[Torre]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

See what I'm saying? So if everything that everybody else got was something that we were to share or if they even thought, if white America and mass thought that helping black people helped America, their reactions to policies specifically for black people would be different. But they don't look at black people in my opinion as being people who can help America writ large. So anything that they get is either charity or unfair. Which the way I look at it is black Americans have been a very central part to the economic, cultural and social power of America for sure. But what they haven't been able to do is take part in the rewards for America being as rich and culturally powerful and politically powerful as it is. So the Democrats have that problem, right? So they can't say this is for black people because white people go, oh, that makes me uncomfortable. Why should we be doing that? So they have to then message sweeping programs that help black people and they're terrible talkers. So they can't tell you why this big thing that they're doing is actually for you because they're hamstrung by races that are in their coalition and they're racist in the Democratic coalition as well. And they're also hamstrung by the fact that we respond best when somebody's talking directly to us. We don't, we haven't been a culture that's good at innuendo. Like, whatever type of conversation we're having. If you're beating around the bush, say it. What you trying to say? Like, even like what you're trying to. Like what you're trying to say. Don't, don't double talk me. Like, say what you're saying to me. Talk directly to me. And for everything that Donald Trump isn't. What he is, is a straight talker. So, you know, that's.

[Torre]

That, that's. You're not a straight talker if you're constantly saying untruthful things. That's not a straight talker.

[Van Lathan]

Well, yeah, you are. You're just a straight liar.

[Torre]

But that's not. But in straight talker, we mean, you are telling it to me straight. You are giving me the truth.

[Van Lathan]

No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I mean.

[Torre]

But if you are a straight liar, that's a con man.

[Van Lathan]

No.

[Torre]

And that's what we think he is.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Torre]

But he's not a straight. I understand the sense that he seems authentic, right? He seems to be who he really is.

[Van Lathan]

He's not unambiguous. Which means, which means that, like, I'm not talking about the truth because everybody's lying. Everybody up there is lying. The question is which lies or which statements are easy to decipher. When Donald Trump is blaming everything on undocumented immigrants, it's a lie. However, the delivery mechanism is very, very simple. This is what we're gonna do. We're gonna take ICE and the American military, we're gonna put them down at the border. We're going to deport all of these people and then all of the resources that they are sucking away from us and all of the crime that they're committing is going to go away. Problem, solution, utopia. It's not true, right? Not that it's true, but it's easier to understand.

[Torre]

Yes, it is easier to understand the gut check, fact, free shit that Republicans say and Democrats need a paragraph to explain. This is the notion that we wanna do. And Republicans are very like, this is what we're gonna do.

[Van Lathan]

Right?

[Torre]

And it's effective, it's dishonest because you're not telling the truth, certainly, but sure, you communicated directly and emotionally. An idea.

[Van Lathan]

I watched a video a couple of days ago. Well, Barack Obama was talking about immigration policy and he was communicating to people very honestly. He was telling them that, look, this is the way we view immigration, this is the way we view legal immigration and this is the way we view undocumented people coming to, coming to America. And his overall point was that, look, there is a humane way that we are going to address the issue of people that we think contribute to our society. We're going to be humane about it, we're going to be compassionate about it. However, we're going to consider the fact that what they did in crossing the border a lot of times is illegal. And he even says in the video, you're going to do this and you're going to learn English. You're going to. He says that in the video. Now see, the face that you just made, the face that you just made is the reason why Democrats lose elections. And I'll tell you something, I'm not saying that you shouldn't have done that. That sounds grating and terrible now, but then it was something that the average American could understand.

[Torre]

No, I could see a lot of Americans saying, you want to live here, you should learn English.

[Van Lathan]

Right.

[Torre]

And it's sort of like a fringe progressive notion of like, you don't have to learn English.

[Van Lathan]

So what I'm saying is what the Democrats now are contending with is a vision of the world that most people just don't have. Now we would want them to have it. And at one point I think that they would have to have it. My vision of the world is a 60% marginal tax rate on every dollar you make over $3 million. My vision of the world is single payer health care. My vision of the world is the right to healthcare, to housing, environmental justice. My vision of the world is specific economic, social and political reparations for black people. That's my vision of the world.

[Torre]

You want to end the death penalty?

[Van Lathan]

I don't, I don't believe that the state should have the right to murder someone.

[Torre]

I don't. Do you want to end prison entirely?

[Van Lathan]

No. Now if Mark shout out Marco Mongill.

[Torre]

Or shrink prison immensely.

[Van Lathan]

Absolutely. Because I think that there are very, very, very few cases, very few cases where incarcerating someone is societally, societally advantageous thing.

[Torre]

Right, right.

[Van Lathan]

I just think the most of the, most of the time you harden people, they come out. Recidivism is high because we don't give them, destroy families, destroy families, the whole thing. I don't think that there's. If you're just looking to punish people, then that's one thing. But if you're looking at the betterment of society, the current carceral system that we have isn't interested in that. So you're very liberal, certainly. However, what I realize is that a lot of people aren't.

[Torre]

I know.

[Van Lathan]

And so what I realized is that in order to get a better version of the society we have right now, that I have to be willing to compromise on some of these things, to take the best version of what's available. And what the left has done is, in my opinion, is the left has said it's either all or nothing. And not just that. I can understand that. But if it's the nothing, then you are a terrible person. And it just doesn't work. It doesn't work because most people live in the real world where their concerns are not the utopia that we should be living in, it's the hell that we are living in. And so they have to find a better communicator and they have to find a better way to communicate. And they used to communicate that way.

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[Torre]

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[Van Lathan]

It's up there. It's up there.

[Torre]

It's up there.

[Van Lathan]

It's up there.

[Torre]

Oh, so that. So you're. So. You're.

[Van Lathan]

I'm with it.

[Torre]

Backing down a little bit.

[Van Lathan]

No, I'll take it. Greatest four album run. I'm with it.

[Torre]

I mean, there's. It's an extraordinary run.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Torre]

And I love Beyonce.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Torre]

Renaissance is amazing. Cowboy Cart Lemonade.

[Van Lathan]

Renaissance. Cowboy Carter. Renaissance. Beyonce. That four album run.

[Torre]

Yes, yes.

[Van Lathan]

Taking out the Jay Z. Oh, you.

[Torre]

Don'T like the Carters.

[Van Lathan]

I love it. But that's different.

[Torre]

It's not a solo album.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. This is the watch the throne for married people. So take that out.

[Torre]

It is. It is.

[Van Lathan]

Think about that four album run. You got Beyonce, lemonade, Cowboy Carter, Renaissance. That four album run.

[Torre]

To me, you say it in the order that she recorded it. You're so beehive.

[Van Lathan]

I'm beehive and people. And the real thing is I get critical of Jay Z sometimes.

[Torre]

Oh, good lord.

[Van Lathan]

I get critical of Jay Z sometimes.

[Torre]

You're so beehive that you're critical of.

[Van Lathan]

Jay Z. I'm not critical of Jay Z because I'm so beehive. I'm critical of Jay Z because of other things. But I'm a Beyonce. Love her. Love her.

[Torre]

I like more than Jay.

[Van Lathan]

It's not even close.

[Torre]

Are you a Jay fan? Yeah, but Beyonce, Stan, there is no.

[Van Lathan]

Fucking way you can like, rap and not like Jay Z.

[Torre]

Right. But Beyonce.

[Van Lathan]

Let me tell you what. Let me tell you why I feel this way about Beyonce real quick. Beyonce did something that not a lot of artists can do. There was a time where I was asking myself, yo, are there any Beyonce songs that I really genuinely fuck with? Crazy. Like, I love Crazy in Love. I love Sweet Dreams. Oh, my God.

[Torre]

So earlier in the career, you were like, I don't know.

[Van Lathan]

I was like, I prefer to listen to Rihanna over Beyonce any fucking day. Right, okay. And then Beyonce in her maturation becomes an artist that I.

[Torre]

Love listening to more than. Or. Yeah, for sure.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, her and Rihanna about what and what? But, like, love listening to, like, love listening through the entire thing. She always had good music, but it was always like, I understand why other people like her, but it wasn't stuff that I could understand.

[Torre]

Usually see an artist grow in this way and Become deeper and more political and more thoughtful and more artistic overall. More liberated, more liberating. More liberated. Yeah, all of that.

[Van Lathan]

And she did Beyonce, like, she. It's like there's. Like there was a certain point where she stopped giving a fuck about what people thought about her to where she stopped trying to curate and manicure her image. Let me tell you what I mean, she still cares.

[Torre]

Renaissance is I don't care. I do whatever I want to do. And it's beautiful. Cowboy Carter is. I care immensely about what those fuckers did. And I'll show you. It's a revenge album. But it is an outward gesture of I'll show you, rather than a more inward gesture of, I love Uncle Johnny. I love the. You know, the LGBTQ folks in my world. Let's give them the love.

[Van Lathan]

I look at it different. When I first heard Daddy Lessons right off Lemonade, just a very competent, amazing country song. It's my favorite song off the album. I was like, God damn, Beyonce. She really got in her bag here. This is like. This might be the real Beyonce, is what I thought when I heard that. When Cowboy Carter comes along, to me, that's kind of like a fuck you. It's like, I can do this music authentically. Whether or not they rewarded her for it or not. I can do this music authentically because this is a part of me. It's a part of me to be able to do this. And it's not something I felt like Beyonce earlier in her career was doing. It would have done when she was still chasing the ghosts of Tina Turner and Aretha Franklin and all these other people who were R and B and soul greats, she got to a point to where she was amongst them. And rather than continue to do the same thing over and over and over again, she continued to push genres and genre blend and bend. And I think it's worked for her. And to me, that's the mark of a truly transcendent artist is when they can take us someplace that we're not sure we want to go, but we're very happy that we're there.

[Torre]

No, we have to prove ourselves to her that, can we get down with house and dance and disco Beyonce? Can we get down with cowboy country Beyonce? Like, you got to prove to me that you can rock with me as a. But now Kanye has a pretty devastating four album run. It's 808's okay. My beautiful, tart, twisted fantasy.

[Van Lathan]

Okay.

[Torre]

Yeezus and the Life of Pablo.

[Van Lathan]

That's not. That can't be The Kanye run that you're talking about, that can't be it. That just can't be it. First of all, all of those albums.

[Torre]

What do you want to make it? Graduation.

[Van Lathan]

It would have to be. It would have to be drop out, graduation, 808s, and then my Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. It would have to be that. First of all, that's not me saying that any of those albums that you're talking about are bad. If you're talking about. Oh, excuse me. No, it would have to be Dropout Registration, which to me is Kanye's best album. Drop Out. Well, it's my favorite. The best album is Dark Twisted Fantasy. Okay, so it would have to be Dropout Registration.

[Torre]

See, you have a problem with 808s and heartbreak.

[Van Lathan]

I don't have a problem with it.

[Torre]

But every time you say that, you stop talking.

[Van Lathan]

So I don't have a problem with.

[Torre]

This is one of the most influential albums of our time.

[Van Lathan]

Doesn't mean it's one of the best.

[Torre]

No, I understand that. But like, the artists freak out over this album created a good quarter of what we listen to now, right? It's. You know, this is incredibly important, right?

[Van Lathan]

It's maybe the most important hip hop album since 2000. That doesn't mean that it's better than.

[Torre]

So were you talking about that this four album run of Beyonce's just has lots of great songs and it makes you dance. Cause you also said, like, oh, it has all this other political stuff and growth going on.

[Van Lathan]

And like, it's not just that, it's.

[Torre]

Cause Kanye's doing that. I mean, like, if you go from the college albums to My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Torre]

This is clearly somebody growing into man. From being an old boy to being a man, Right?

[Van Lathan]

The only thing I would say, and this is just who Kanye is. Kanye more than anyone is he gets bored of you liking the version of him that you like. I remember listening to him talk about the Click Mercy era and he was like, too commercial. Y'all like it too much. Like, yeah, it's too commercial. That's not what I'm doing. That doesn't make. That's not bleeding edge. Some people make cutting edge music. He makes bleeding edge music. Whatever you would say about him, that's a fact. And 808s and heartbreaks is probably the best example of that. Jesus maybe as well, right? Like the best example of that. However, if we're talking about like just a four album run for me, just sonically and everything, I like 808s. And heartbreaks less than I like some of the other stuff around it. And Beyonce almost got to a point to where she took on different parts of her life every single time. She addressed her sexuality, her grown woman ness. On the self titled album, she comes back and addresses her relationship. On.

[Torre]

Lemonade.

[Van Lathan]

Lemonade. She comes back and gives something to a fan base that has really, really been riding with her. Right. She genre blends for the house music stuff on Renaissance. Then she comes back and goes back to her roots, our roots on Cowboy Carter. I just think it's super fucking impressive.

[Torre]

Prince.

[Van Lathan]

Okay, give it to me.

[Torre]

I mean, there's any number of orders we could do. I know, I know, but you could. I mean, Dirty Mind, controversy.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's tough.

[Torre]

1999, Purple Rain.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Torre]

Around the world in a day.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah.

[Torre]

I mean, and you, you could even.

[Van Lathan]

Start at Purple Rain.

[Torre]

Keep going straight to Parade and Sign of the Times.

[Van Lathan]

Sign of the Times. You could even. You could even start. Yeah, I get it. I get it.

[Torre]

That's tough.

[Van Lathan]

It is tough. It is tough.

[Torre]

And it's just one guy. It's not like it's a group competing with one individual. It's one guy.

[Van Lathan]

Well, Beyonce's just one person.

[Torre]

No, I'm saying Beyonce is one. Prince is one. Yeah, right. Stevie Wonder is one. Like Stevie Wonder in the 70s. How can you not count Stevie?

[Van Lathan]

You don't compare gods to men.

[Torre]

As I understand that. Stevie is a.

[Van Lathan]

Don't compare gods to. You can't compare gods to me.

[Torre]

But you can't cut him then. You can't just cut him. Cut him out of this.

[Van Lathan]

Don't cut him out.

[Torre]

I would cut out Miles Davis, John Coltrane. That's a whole different plane. Right? They're different sort of people. It's a different thing. Stevie Wonder is absolutely part of this. Just because he's way better than everybody else doesn't mean you cut him out. That's the whole point, is he's way ahead of everybody.

[Van Lathan]

What I'm doing right now. You're disrespecting Stevie. What I'm doing right now.

[Torre]

No, I am not.

[Van Lathan]

Is I'm putting Stevie on a level that's unattainable. The historical context for how good Stevie Wonder was at his peak. Ask Jonta Austin about this. She have Jonta on here? Okay. Ask Jonta Austin about this. It's just. It's out of this world. Like, it's better than Beyonce. It's better than Prince. It's better than Michael Jackson. It's better than James Brown. It's better than Elvis Presley. It's better than the Beatles. It's better than all of those guys. He is the greatest musician that has ever lived, in my opinion, that I would know about. I can't compare him to Bach or, you know, any of those people back in the day or whatever.

[Torre]

That's different.

[Van Lathan]

But he is the best musician ever. The songs that he wrote are songs that, like, I can give you, like, I believe, and just listen to the record. And you're like, if you listen to that record, you'd ask yourself, do I understand love or does he understand love? And I don't really get it. Like, I believe when I fall in love with you, it'll be forever. I'm not in love with you yet, but I have this feeling that when I do fall in love with you, it's never going to end. So I'm not. So I'm loving you in the future, in eternity. And when I hear the record, I'm like, jesus Christ. And then just musically, sonically, it changes at the end. It's just a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, amazing fucking song. Whatever emotion Stevie wants you to be in, you're in that emotion. Beyonce doesn't compare.

[Torre]

I mean, he makes a record that is like the Great Migration put to music.

[Van Lathan]

Absolutely. What a great way to say that.

[Torre]

I mean, right? I mean, like, from the south to the north, right into mass incarceration, like, and there's kind of, like. It's not. There's no real. There's kind of like a skit in the middle that hip hop would later make, like, a thing. Right? But, like, soul music in the 70s didn't have, like, skits in the middle of the record. Now we're just talking and having voices and a little scene happens. And, like, what?

[Van Lathan]

And it's funny because, like, you know, growing up with vinyl, still being around Mama Mo. Shout out to the beautiful and amazing Geraldine Ellis from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. My mama, Moe. My grandmother just had all these records.

[Torre]

Momo.

[Van Lathan]

Momo. Yeah, yeah. Momo. Momo, Momo.

[Torre]

What did you call your grandfather?

[Van Lathan]

A papa. Not big on the grandfathers.

[Torre]

You're not.

[Van Lathan]

Didn't have a lot of them.

[Torre]

How many did you have, really?

[Van Lathan]

Zero, so.

[Torre]

Really?

[Van Lathan]

So my family has a grandfather problem. My family has a grandfather problem.

[Torre]

What does that mean?

[Van Lathan]

So my mother's father, her actual father's a guy I don't know. I met him one time in, like, 99. So I grew up my entire life thinking my mother's stepfather was her actual dad. He just passed away. He's 90 years old.

[Torre]

And so was he grandfatherly to you?

[Van Lathan]

Kinda, kind of. Kinda. There were some things in there, some family secrets and things I will learn later on that made me maybe not so interested in. But yeah, basically for the most part, not really, but I don't know what that would be. Right. And so then my father, his father had a different family.

[Torre]

So his father had two families. Two families, like secret.

[Van Lathan]

I don't know if it was a secret. I think I had three kids by my grandmama. So. So there's a grandfather problem in our family. So like. And it continues because I don't have any kids and my dad died in 2021. So there, there's a, there's a curse over our family with a lack of grandfathers, not. Not a lack of male father figures because I got my pops, my uncle Petey, my uncle Ray, my uncle Charles, my uncle David.

[Torre]

But your mom left.

[Van Lathan]

My mom. What'd you mean my mom left?

[Torre]

She left your house at a certain point.

[Van Lathan]

I was like 22 though. Oh yeah. But what I'm saying, but what I'm saying is that like her dad, her actual dad is a guy that I never knew.

[Torre]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

And so the country dysfunctional south Louisiana bullshit means that I never had like a granddad.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

Not really.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Van Lathan]

So it's a grandfather problem in my family. And I wanted to fix the grandfather problem in my family. But I will only fix it now if I am a grandfather.

[Torre]

Right.

[Van Lathan]

Because my dad's passed away.

[Torre]

Right. Okay.

[Van Lathan]

It's a thing.

[Torre]

I see. It's a thing.

[Van Lathan]

I see.

[Torre]

It's a thing.

[Van Lathan]

So anyhow, but how did we get on that.

[Torre]

I was asking about what you called your grandmother.

[Van Lathan]

Oh, I called my grandmother Momo. But granddaddy was. He was like he was papaw. But like it's not.

[Torre]

But you never say that word.

[Van Lathan]

Cause I mean he was papaw. Like he was papaw. His dad was papaw. But it's like he's my granddad. He's the only granddad I've ever known.

[Torre]

So you feel disconnected from a history of manness because you don't have grand.

[Van Lathan]

Fathers who were not in the least. I've had. I've had more men take an interest in my life. I've had so many, like my entire the way to particularly on my dad's side. Everybody takes an interest in raising you. Everybody. Like there are things that you have to know how to do. You have to know how to shoot, you have to know how to hunt. You have to understand who you are. You have to understand your history. And it's a lift from all of them. It's a lift from the Vietnam vet that my Uncle Charles was. It's the lift from the Horsemen that my Uncle Craig is. It's the lift from the business owner that my Uncle Pete is. It's the lift from my dad, who's a version of all of those men. And everybody has wisdom to give you. Quick story. I remember this uncle has passed away, so I don't want to mention specifically his name, but there's an uncle that always used to ask me to read stuff. He would always ask me to read stuff. He'd sit down and he'd be like, what is. I was maybe like 6, 7, 8 years old. And he'd give me a piece of paper and he'd be like, van, read that. And I would read it and he would just be laughing, like, overflowing with laughter. He would be so happy. I would be reading and going through the whole page and going through all of that stuff. And he would be just so into it and always would just give me stuff to read. Like there was a magazine, a book, whatever it was, one time it was a Playboy, like a magazine book, whatever it was. I'm like reading, reading, reading, reading, reading, reading, reading, reading. At one point, I get to a point to where for whatever reason, I didn't want to look at it or read it. And my dad pulls me to the side and he goes, do you know why that happens? And I'm like, why? He goes, well, your uncle can't read. Like, he can't read. Like he doesn't read. He can't read. So he doesn't read very well. And he's like, he is so proud of you. He is so proud that his nephew at this age is so good at reading. He was like, these men care about you. These men are proud of you. These men look at you and think, all the shit that we went through is worth it. Because look at him. He's a little freer than what we were. And he was like, so when he asked you to read something, just read it for him. That makes him happy. Because what? Nobody trying to do that. Somebody picked him off, picked him out of school when he was X amount of age. And they put him on a sugarcane farm where they made him go out and work and they made him do. And so he can't do that. So when he see you doing that, he's like, God damn, we got something. And so to me, when I look at all of that, like, that's a part of who I am. But even still, there was. Now there was Big Papa, who was my father's grandfather. But he passed away in 1986, so I didn't get to be around him that much.

[Torre]

Hmm. Why have all these men, family, then, family, friends, like, put so much energy and thought and care into you?

[Van Lathan]

They put it into all of us. All of the younger guys, but all of the younger members of our family. But I think for us, it was just because, you know, there's a misconception. There's a misconception that black men are not concerned with family lineage or legacy. And that misconception is put out there in order to devalue us and make it seem like we would sooner cut each other's throats than say hello.

[Torre]

It's just we lack history.

[Van Lathan]

We lack history, right? It's bullshit. Like, I was given an oral history of my entire family, right? Like, you go to Ventures Cemetery. You start at the front. That's where my dad is buried. And then by the time you get to the back, they're slaves back there. So for me and for a lot of brothers from the South. I can't speak for all of them, but for a lot of brothers from the south, there is an immense value to family and an immense value. I'm not saying it's just in the South. I'm just talking about myself in particular, and guys that I knew from around where my family came up from. Baton Rouge, Rosedale, Maryguin, Irwinville, Port Allen, South Baton Rouge, Donsonville, Opalousis. All of that family is all these people got. And so they care about who went and did what. They care about the fact that you can shoot your gun straight and ride your horse and do all of that stuff. They care about that. So I think they just wanted me to be a Latham man. And they understood that it was something that was earned and not just something that you were born into.

[Torre]

That's beautiful.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah, it's very true, but it's, like, very true. And it's not like something that you even. Even some of my homies, if you ask any of my homies from the neighborhood, my dad would come back from hunting deer over his back, right? Cause sometimes he would hunt, and I would be in school. Like, my father was a cement finisher. So if it rained, I still had to go to school. But he couldn't work, right? If it rains, the job's there. So if the job is off, he's gonna go hunting. So Sometimes I would be at school after school and my dad would just be coming back from a hunt. You hit a big diesel dually coming down the street. And he'd get out and there be a deer, a buck. And the buck is over his back, he's like, van, get ready, we about to dress him. This is when we were still living off guardia in Hermitage. Van, we about to dress him. I'm excited. Blood, guts, deer meat. I'm a kid, let's do it. So I'm getting ready to put him up there, slicing, hanging, bleeding, and do the whole thing. And you would see other guys, dads looking like, and it would be like, yo, are you guys about to like dress the deer right now? And be like, yeah, yeah, like, can I like watch? Yeah, sure, come back there. And then all of a sudden you fuck with your friends, you throw blood on them and you do all of that stuff. But. And I don't hunt now, but I did. Then you do fuck with your friends. Like you got blood on your hand, your friends are there, you plucking in their face and all of that stuff. So to me, like, but all of that to teach me how to do that. Like, I don't know the version of America where as a black boy, I wasn't invested into. So because of that, I find it to be a profound tragedy when I meet black boys that haven't been invested into. And I understand how their lives would change and do change when someone does invest into them. Which is why I mention them in every interview and I hope you get a chance to interview them. Jason Wilson from the cave of Adullaham, Detroit, Michigan. Like that guy and what he does. What he does. He's got a new book coming out, the old book. Fucking, I love the book. What's the name of the book? Cry Like a Man. All of that stuff. Seeing him invest into the young men in his community and there are men doing this in black communities all over the place, means a lot to me. Welcome to the White Lotus in Thailand. It's a wellness center. You should get a facial.

[Intuit Advertiser]

The lady in the airport thought you were my dad.

[Van Lathan]

My God.

[Intuit Advertiser]

The Emmy award winning HBO original series returns.

[Van Lathan]

There has been more crime on the island. Well, I'm a little freaked out.

[Intuit Advertiser]

What happens in Thailand stays in Thailand.

[Torre]

What does that mean? It means we're not dead yet.

[Van Lathan]

Amen.

[Intuit Advertiser]

Amen. A new season of the HBO original series the White Lotus premieres February 16th at 9pm on MAX.

[Torre]

You think Drake can come back?

[Van Lathan]

Hmm. Love that. I don't think Drake's actually going anywhere.

[Torre]

You think he has not gone anywhere. Yeah, I mean, I think the culture has sort of pushed him at least to the side. Like he's at least on the edge of the playground. Like we don't want to hear from you right now. Like you gotta chill. Like you're not on timeout, but you're like, eh, you're not our favorite right now.

[Van Lathan]

I get it, but I don't. If America can come back from January 6th, Drake can come back from not like us.

[Torre]

Fucking idiot.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just saying it's like I don't think anything happen.

[Torre]

I don't know that America has come back from January 6th. I think they fucking came back. Are we nuts? I think that, I mean the side that did it came back and they have sort of like subsumed it and repackaged it and actually wasn't that bad. And we need to get these guys out. They're the fucking hostages.

[Van Lathan]

To be honest with you. There's no doubt about it that America came back. America said fuck that shit and they went and voted for the guy who tried to overthrow the government and delegitimize an election. And so I say that to say that in the era that we're living at now, I just don't think that people's. That their memories are as long as what we think they are. Really. I think that Drake is mismanaging the post beef Drake career to such a degree. To where literally. Okay, my friend Tommy said this. I drop a lot of names because I want to give people credit for the things that they say. The Hawktua girl, remember her? You guys know Hawk Tua for sure. Hawktua girl came out, said Hawk Tua and she had a meteoric rise. She talked about sucking dick and within three months she was the biggest star in the world. Her podcast, I do a podcast every week. Been doing it for a long time. I am not a hater at all. But God damn it, if it wasn't a kicking the balls watching. Talk to her at number three on spot. You like, God, they fucking with this shit. You know what I'm saying? It's like they fucking with it, but nothing but good energy. Talk to her comes out there. She's everywhere. She's touring it up, spitting on it. Hawk tour everywhere, right? She tries to run that fake crypto scam pumps the coin up. Snipers snipe everything out of the crypto scam, right? She makes a million, $2 million off fees. Watch the Coffeezilla video. One of the worst. You know what Tatua did? She said, I'm going to bed. And we haven't fucking heard from her since. She did a live spaces the next day or a couple days after where she took all of these questions where she overindulged into what the narrative about her was. And then at the end of the space, she went, you know what? I'm not feeling this anymore. I'm going to bed, going to sleep. Done. We haven't heard from her since. And it got to the point to where now people are actually wondering, where's the Hawk tour girl? She went away. And now people are wondering when she gonna talk. Drake just refused to do that. If Drake would have done what the Hawk tour girl did, Go away. Chill, bruh.

[Torre]

He definitely should go away. Not certain if he can. He may have certain obligations where he has to be in public. He has certain professional partners, sponsors. So he may have to be in public, but if he can't, it would be great. And I don't say it as a hater. I'm like, if I was managing him, Let them miss you. Let it die out. The lawsuit pumps it up, breathes new energy into it, makes us talk about it again and again. Like, let it go. The other thing I think about, too, is that dancing is involuntary, right? The music that Kendrick makes, you got to plug in with your brain to be like, this is the shit. Drake can make a dance banger that's like, summery. That has, like, nothing to do with this vibe. And it's like, oh, I wanted to hate on Drake, but goddamn, the music is good. The beat is going. I'm dancing.

[Van Lathan]

He could have either gone away or he could have done what he did after Pusha, which is just. He released Scorpion. Scorpion had God's plan in my feelings, all of these joints. And we was like, hey, you know, we like this motherfucker. We like his music. We like the music. He's good. He makes music. We like the music, and we like the fucking music.

[Torre]

He's partly propped up because he has a lot of white fans. I think he has more white fans than most rappers.

[Van Lathan]

So you think he has more white fans than Eminem? Definitely not.

[Torre]

That's an interesting question. Well, I said most. I mean, Eminem is also that sort of super pop star. To get to that super pop star level, you gotta have a lot of white fans. So if we were or when we are like, mm, we don't like Drake. But there's still a whole huge, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of fans who are rocking with him, who don't even know or hear us going. We don't like that he did our shit about the AI Tupac or our anger about you rapping like you're trying to get the slaves freed. They don't even hear that.

[Van Lathan]

Right? Because they don't. But even if they don't hear it, but they also don't have a frame of reference to why it even bothers us. Of course they have. No. Oh, he did AI Tupac, whatever. Who cares? AI Tupac, whatever. Rapping like, trying to get. That is how Kendrick raps. Kendrick raps like he's trying to get to slave Street.

[Torre]

Isn't that a good thing?

[Van Lathan]

There was a fucking slave free. There was whole frats, whole white frats going. He does kind of rap like that, bro. I don't know why people so fucking pissed he raps like that, right? Drake said it. Drake fucking said it. But like Drake is, if Drake has gotten to a point of cultural ubiquity to where he is going to drop at certain point, when he can drop after this lawsuit gets dismissed or it's adjudicated, it's going to go number one, and it will solely be about the music. I will say this, though. It's the only thing I'll say. The music that's been coming from Drake, at least for two years, has been increasingly lukewarm.

[Torre]

More than two.

[Van Lathan]

More than two, fine.

[Torre]

Like four.

[Van Lathan]

Increasingly lukewarm.

[Torre]

Five.

[Van Lathan]

That is done.

[Torre]

The acceptance of lukewarm Drake.

[Van Lathan]

Right? Because Drake's. Drake's. His musical formula is such that a Drake song can actually only be so bad. Right? I'm seriously. Drake's music has a very high floor. It's just listenable. It has a very high floor. It can only be so bad. It's not particularly inventive or daring. So the floor is very high. So even when you get Drake music that's like. Not that it doesn't make you go, oh, my God, that's a record I gotta hear a bunch of times. You. Whatever that is done. The high floor expectation of his music, in my opinion, is over. When he does drop music again, it has got to be some of his best stuff or people are gonna look to stick a fork in him even more. So he's got to come back with music that, to me, is pretty close to undeniable.

[Torre]

I mean, it's a difficult fork in the road at 38, 39, 38 years old, I think.

[Van Lathan]

So, yeah.

[Torre]

Most artists don't continue to be superstars after so you gotta either throw the hammer down and release some dope shit, and I'm still a contemporary artist, or you could do one or two more duds and fade into being a legacy artist. And you could go on tour doing the old songs for 10 more years like the Rolling Stones. But if you want to be a contemporary artist, the window is closing, but.

[Van Lathan]

It closes for everyone.

[Torre]

Of course it does. And you're 38, 39 years old. Like, you got to get on some shit. Like. Like you're saying, like, no more lukewarm. You got to come with some shit now, or we gonna move on to the next.

[Van Lathan]

The only thing that he has going for him and some of these other guys have going for him is that there's nobody behind him to take it. Pause. There's. There, there's. You're an idiot.

[Torre]

I can't believe it. Pause. That was a smooth pause. Wait, so did you think pause as the sentence is forming your brain, or. You said it, you heard yourself, and then you're like, I need to make.

[Van Lathan]

Sure nobody behind them to take it is crazy. But I think the pause game. Shout out to everyone. Shout out to Dame and all of those guys and Harlem guys and everybody. I think the pause game allows me to be toxic in a way that I like being toxic. I just think it's funny.

[Torre]

It could be funny if you are picking up on some shit that like other people. There was one that Cam and Mace had the other day that was really funny.

[Van Lathan]

Cam and Mace are two of the funniest guys in the world.

[Torre]

But Treasure said it. Cam said something, and he didn't even notice it. And she said, pause, and Mace died, right? And Killa's like, I don't know what's going on.

[Van Lathan]

I'm proud of Treasure. Be right there with them.

[Torre]

But if it's funny and smart, my man Dame, sometimes it can be really reductive and simplistic. And I'm like.

[Van Lathan]

But my thing is, though, that's like.

[Torre]

Like what?

[Van Lathan]

Like criticizing Dame's.

[Torre]

You need to make sure Dame is.

[Van Lathan]

Like criticizing fucking Joe Lewis. Left hook.

[Torre]

What?

[Van Lathan]

He like. He like the OG of the pause game. So Dame will say stuff. Dame would be like, yeah, I was going to the store, Paz and I. To me, I want to know. I don't go, that's the reach. I go, what did Dame see in the paws that I didn't see?

[Torre]

See, that's the thing. I'd be like, you know, you are working, and I know the man. I'm not talking about him. What he does or does not do. Right? None of that. But it makes me think, why are you so eager to make sure that I don't think such of you?

[Van Lathan]

But, you know, I was walking down.

[Torre]

The street, pause, and I'm like, God damn. And then I open the car door, pause, like, God damn.

[Van Lathan]

Can I tell you why I have a lot of respect for Dame and I think it's because of this as well. Do you know who Rorschach is? Sure. I'm glad. So this is gonna be long winded. And, you know, if you guys have been listening to the fucking podcast right now, you're gonna be like, oh, for real? Of course it's gonna be long winded. Everything you do is long winded. It' so if you watch Watchmen, right? Or if you have read Watchmen, Rorschach is a vigilante that, with all the other vigilantes out there, he is uncompromising. And he is uncompromising no matter what. Like, at the end of Watchmen, during Watchmen, if you guys have never read it before or seen it, you have to read it because it's just a really devastating take on heroism, on contemporary society and what you have to do to save yourself. But I'll set a scene for you. The world is about to be devastated by nuclear war. There are two guys, one named Adrian veidt, another named Dr. Manhattan, who. Who fake something to get the United States and the Russia not to go to war. But in order to get that to happen, 3 million people die. They have. They make a fake monster to attack the world, kill 3 million people. But they do that to save 7 billion people. The rest of the heroes go along with it. Rorschach says no. And he's.

[Torre]

Because he just.

[Van Lathan]

He will not compromise what he thinks.

[Torre]

Is right, that he thinks killing 3 million is wrong.

[Van Lathan]

He thinks that killing 3 million to save a billion is wrong. He's just not going to compromise. And Dr. Manhattan kills him on the spot. Because if he goes and he tells the world that this is what they did, it undoes the whole thing, and we're back to square one. So Rorschach turns around and he looks at Dr. Manhattan and he says, not even in the face of oblivion, not in the face of everything around me going to shit, will I compromise? And he looks at him, he says, do it. And Dr. Manhattan kills Rorschach. Now, that's a very, very lyrical way to describe Dame. But Dame refuses to compromise. And whether or not it hurts him, whether or not it sets him back. Whether or not it sometimes makes him look bad, he just won't do it.

[Torre]

But let's pull it away from Damon Specific because it's not meant to be about him in specific.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just saying that's why I feel.

[Torre]

But some people play that game so aggressively that I'm like, why are you so concerned that somebody somewhere might misread something you said as gay?

[Van Lathan]

I mean, what. The pause game in and of itself is immature and homophobic just the way it is.

[Torre]

Right, right.

[Van Lathan]

But the reality.

[Torre]

But you can play it in a smart, funny way, and you can play it in a way that I'm like, you seem to be telling on yourself.

[Van Lathan]

I don't think that's true with Dame at all. But I get what I'm saying.

[Torre]

I'm getting away from speaking of.

[Van Lathan]

No, I know, but what I'm saying is, I mean, it's the kind of thing that if you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound. If you're playing the game, it's immature, it's homophobic. But the question is whether or not you think it's harmless or not. Whether or not I can't be so liberal or so righteous. To where I don't see the humor in it and to where I don't see. Oh, man, that's what she said. Pause. Immunity. Whatever it is that you say.

[Torre]

Immunity.

[Van Lathan]

Yeah. Josh Pate, college football guy says immunity instead of pause. Instead of pause. Like, you'll be watching Josh Pate shout out Josh patient. Josh Pate will go. And he goes, and Michigan State just wasn't able to come from behind. Immunity. And then. So he says immunity instead of pause. So I realize it. But it's the kind of thing to where obviously, if we do a deep analysis of it, you'll be like, oh, you shouldn't do it. But at the same time, it's kind of like they're guys that are making jokes and it is what it is.

[Torre]

It is what it is. No, it could be fun at times. You're funny.

[Van Lathan]

I'm just saying I'm not. I wish I was, but I'm not that liberal to where I don't play the game. I wish I was that.

[Torre]

What else do you dabble in that's slightly toxic or, oh, shit, I'm toxic as fucked up.

[Van Lathan]

I mean, well. And I'm like, I hope and mean the best for everyone. And I have a politic where everyone is on the same. Everyone gets the same rights. But, man, like, I constantly deal with the need to push myself forward. And I'm not anybody's example for how you should go about in the world. I'm somebody that's continuously learning and real time. One of the most toxic moments I had was like, well, one of my homegirls back in the day, she was telling me, she was like, don't use the word female. She's like, don't describe us as female. We don't like to be described as female. And I remember I'm having this conversation with her. I'm like, what you mean? And she's like, well, a dog is female. I'm a woman. I'm a lady. I'm this and I'm that. I'm like, whatever. Female. I don't like the term female when you guys say females. And I centered myself to such a degree to where I was like, man, I call you a female, so I don't call you a bitch. The rest of the niggas out there calling you a straight, calling you hoes and bitches. I'm saying female. That is the respect. You don't tell me how to respect you. I tell you how to be respected. And then we having a conversation, and I'm going so hard. I'm going so hard. I'm like, damn, I'm toxic. Like, I'm mad that she's telling me how she wants to be. I'm like, I'm one of them. I'm like, God damn, I am you, dad.

[Torre]

I'm doing you a favor by calling you female.

[Van Lathan]

I'm doing you a favor by calling you this. How dare you tell me how you're about your dignity.

[Torre]

Be grateful.

[Van Lathan]

Be grateful that I'm not doing you the way everybody else is. And eventually I was like, yeah, man, you right.

[Torre]

You know what I mean?

[Van Lathan]

So there's. It's all in there, but you got to work on it. And sometimes you just go, hey, this is me. This is who I am.

[Torre]

I'm just toxic parts of yourself.

[Van Lathan]

You're not anybody that. Anybody that's trying to act like there are no toxic parts of them, that there are no backwards parts of them. Unwoke parts of them is the most toxic. Unwoke. Check their basement for bodies. It's just not possible. We're socialized in this incredibly toxic misogynist. It's just the way that it is, and it rubs off. The only thing you can do is commit to learning and being open. But anybody out there that's on every single cause and is, like, killing people every single time, that they can about everything that they do wrong and whatever, whatever, whatever. Check their basement. Somebody tied up in there.

[Torre]

It's gotta be.

[Van Lathan]

I believe that.

[Torre]

Thanks so much to Van for a great interview. And thanks to you for listening. Torre show gives you fuel to power your dreams. Because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. Maybe this show can help. Torre's show is written by me, Torre, and produced by Ashley Hobbs. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our booker is Ray Holiday. And we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back next Wednesday with more amazing guests because the man can't shut us down.

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