We Love Stevie

Summary

Toure Show Episode Summary: "We Love Stevie"

---

Introduction

In the "We Love Stevie" episode of the Toure Show, host Torre engages in an insightful conversation with Wesley Morris from the New York Times and Josh Gwynn, a major producer. The discussion centers around their newly launched podcast, "The Wonder of Stevie," which delves deep into the music and legacy of Stevie Wonder, particularly focusing on his prolific period during the 1970s.

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Overview of "The Wonder of Stevie" Podcast

Wesley Morris introduces "The Wonder of Stevie" as a comprehensive exploration of Stevie Wonder's five remarkable albums released in quick succession during the 1970s. Josh Gwynn adds that the podcast doesn't shy away from controversial topics, such as Stevie's "Secret Life of Plants," providing listeners with a balanced view of his work.

Quote:
Torre: "The Wonder of Stevie is my favorite new podcast of the year so far. It is a deep dive into the music of Stevie Wonder during the 70s."
[02:18]

---

Deep Dive into Stevie Wonder’s Albums

1. Music of My Mind
   Wesley emphasizes that this album marked Stevie's artistic freedom, allowing him to experiment with new sounds and technologies. He reflects on how the album serves as a foundation for his subsequent works.

   Quote:
   Wesley Morris: "This is the album where he's figuring out how to make the other four, even if he doesn't know it."
   [24:16]

2. Inner Visions
   The conversation touches upon the complexity and emotional depth of this album. Josh notes the challenge in selecting which songs to highlight due to the album's richness.

   Quote:
   Josh Gwynn: "Our entire team had an entire conversation where we're like, okay, is this one going to make it?"
   [04:38]

3. Talking Book
   Wesley discusses the balance between upbeat tracks and more introspective songs, highlighting Stevie's versatility.

4. Songs in the Key of Life
   Recognized as a cornerstone of Stevie's career, this album receives particular attention. Wesley and Josh explore its intricate arrangements and profound messages, with Wesley admitting his initial reservations about certain tracks but ultimately appreciating their depth.

   Quote:
   Wesley Morris: "But I will say that now that we're done, like. And have I said this in front of you before? I don't know."
   [23:46]

5. Secret Life of Plants
   Although controversial, this album is defended by Wesley and Josh as a genuine artistic endeavor that, despite mixed reviews, adds to Stevie's diverse portfolio.

---

Personal Experiences and Emotional Impact

Both Wesley and Josh share personal anecdotes about how Stevie's music has influenced their lives. Wesley recalls moments of emotional connection, such as listening to "Living for the City" during intense personal experiences, which brought him to tears.

Quote:
Wesley Morris: "I was crying."
[10:25]

Josh reflects on how creating the podcast transformed his relationship with Stevie's music, allowing him to appreciate its complexity and emotional layers beyond initial impressions.

Quote:
Josh Gwynn: "I got to listen to the album in a different way."
[50:43]

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Interaction with Influential Figures

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around interviews conducted with notable personalities like Barack Obama and Michelle Obama. Wesley shares his experience interviewing Stevie Wonder alongside the Obamas, highlighting the profound impact Stevie's music has had on influential leaders and everyday individuals alike.

Quote:
Wesley Morris: "This person, this very important American human is sitting there being transported."
[01:53]

They recount a memorable moment where both Wesley and Barack Obama were overwhelmed by Stevie's performance, emphasizing the universal language of music.

Quote:
Wesley Morris: "We're both like, this is happening. This is happening in front of us. This is crazy."
[00:41]

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Reflections and Conclusions

As the episode concludes, Wesley and Josh reflect on the enduring legacy of Stevie Wonder. They discuss how his music transcends generational boundaries, remaining relevant and influential decades after its creation. The hosts express their admiration for Stevie's ability to innovate and stay true to his artistic vision, regardless of external pressures.

Quote:
Wesley Morris: "He doesn't think that anything ended in 1976. Nothing. Like it continues to this day."
[45:04]

Josh adds that their podcast aims to introduce Stevie Wonder to new audiences while deepening the appreciation of existing fans by uncovering the stories and emotions behind his music.

Quote:
Josh Gwynn: "Listening to the album, I got to Listen to the album in a different way is my answer."
[50:43]

---

Notable Moments and Quotes

• Emotional Connection:
  Wesley shares a poignant moment of listening to "Living for the City" on the squat rack, where the music moved him to tears.
  "[10:23] Wesley Morris: I was crying."

• Artistic Innovation:
  Discussion on Stevie's use of new technologies and instruments in his albums, highlighting his role as a musical innovator.
  "[25:21] Wesley Morris: He is a practical optimist."

• Cultural Impact:
  The hosts explore how Stevie's music has shaped cultural conversations around race, politics, and personal identity.
  "[20:35] Wesley Morris: Yes, but I mean, do you wanna call Kamala Harris and tell her that she is missing out on an opportunity to use one of the greatest songs ever recorded?"

---

Conclusion

The "We Love Stevie" episode of the Toure Show serves as a heartfelt tribute to Stevie Wonder, celebrating his unparalleled contribution to music and culture. Through engaging dialogue, personal reflections, and expert analysis, Wesley Morris and Josh Gwynn offer listeners a comprehensive understanding of Stevie's artistry and its lasting significance. Whether you're a long-time fan or new to Stevie Wonder's music, this episode provides valuable insights that enrich the listening experience.

Transcript

[Torre]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Torre]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Torre]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Torre]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Torre]

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[Wesley Morris]

And there was a moment where he starts playing. And I looked at the president and the president was like, looking at me. We're both like, this is happening. This is happening in front of us. This is crazy. This is crazy.

[Josh Gwynn]

Oh, my God.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. No, I mean, because if you think about Barack. I mean, for me, it's a special moment. But if you're Barack Obama or like Thelma Golden, Michelle Obama, like anybody, especially any black person who had the, like, lay on the floor and look at the liner notes while the album plays moment. And that was how you experience these albums. To be sitting in a room. I don't care. I mean, I mean, it is. I mean, it's Barack Obama. But at the end of the day, what I'm saying to you about being human is this person, this very important American human is sitting there being transported. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna impute feelings to a person. I know what he was feeling in that moment. He was. He was 11 again. Yeah, he was 13 again. And he's on the floor of some house with this music.

[Torre]

Watch.

[Wesley Morris]

Listening to this man answer questions in the form of a song. Yeah, right. The tour ratio okay, though?

[Torre]

The tour ratio okay, Doe, that might be the best question I've ever been asked.

[Wesley Morris]

You's a phenomenal person. I mean, you legendary. I am a fan of you, my brother.

[Torre]

The Wonder of Stevie is my favorite new podcast of the year so far. It is a deep dive into the music of Stevie wonder during the 70s. So there's one whole episode about Music of My Mind, one episode about Inner Visions, talking book songs in the Key of Life. That core streak where Stevie had five incredible albums in five years for some reason. They also go into the Secret Life of Plants, a whole episode about it. I don't know why, because it's there. Maybe. But it's actually a really interesting conversation. Wesley Morris from the New York Times is the host of this thing. Josh Gwynn is a major producer behind this. This is a fantastic show. They get interviews from Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, and of course, one from Stevie Wonder. We did a whole deep dive into our love for Stevie, the music of Stevie, and how they came up with this awesome podcast. Let's get into it. It's Wesley Morris and Josh Gwynn from the Wonder of Stevie on Torre show. My God, you guys have made an extraordinary podcast. I just ate it up right away. It sounded great. The arguments were great. The structure was great. Even when I was arguing with you, Wesley, about how wrong you are about one thing, I was like, this is great.

[Wesley Morris]

I can't wait to hear what the words.

[Torre]

No, but congratulations.

[Wesley Morris]

It's truly.

[Torre]

Thank you. Thank you, Josh, lead producer. Thank you, Wesley. On the vocals.

[Wesley Morris]

On the vocals. Oh, yeah. You know what? I just. When he said that. Am I Dawn, or am I Cindy? I think I'm Dawn. I'm Dawn.

[Josh Gwynn]

Never gonna get it.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, my God.

[Torre]

So wait, so was there a big argument about as being the center song of Stevie's catalog? Is that a discussion you had?

[Wesley Morris]

It was deeper than that. Or maybe more frivolous than that. I can't.

[Josh Gwynn]

I think it was more frivolous. Cause each episode focuses on one album. So when one of the hardest things about making the show was narrowing down which songs to talk about.

[Torre]

Right?

[Josh Gwynn]

And so with songs in the key of life, like, one of the biggest things is how voluminous it is. Like, how. And so we, like, our entire team had an entire conversation where we're like, okay, is this one going to make it? Is this one not going to make it? And I remember just assuming AZ would be one of the ones that makes. Right. And Wes was like, eh, wait a minute.

[Wesley Morris]

I was gonna be. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, we should be clear. It wasn't. I was truly like. But I knew I did. I did preface it by saying, y'all aren't gonna like this.

[Josh Gwynn]

Yeah, he did.

[Torre]

But how could you even make that point? It is the penultimate song on the album. It is the longest song on the album.

[Wesley Morris]

It's like a few after that.

[Torre]

No, there's one after that.

[Wesley Morris]

Well, there's like, the extra disc.

[Torre]

The.

[Wesley Morris]

You know, with the four songs on it.

[Josh Gwynn]

A little something extraordinary.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, if you listen for a month. Okay, Were you there in 1976? Were you there in 19? There's no way.

[Torre]

I mean, I was five. I know.

[Wesley Morris]

I was gonna say.

[Torre]

I know my parents had it I.

[Wesley Morris]

Know it was played to experience it. Now, unfortunately, or even at the time, there was still like another four songs, like five songs.

[Torre]

I do feel like, as Is the Sun around which the album revolves. Is that not your position?

[Wesley Morris]

I understand it now. I mean, going into this, it was not until making this show that I got it right. And it's funny because everybody else who got it, really, I mean, this was a thing. They didn't even have to get it. It was got right. And I had to experientially catch up to where these guys, like Josh, Janelle, Janelle Anderson, our other producer, Anna Holmes, whose idea this was, and an executive producer on the show, like, they were already there. Janay, even Janaye Marable, who worked A Higher Ground.

[Torre]

The song builds as you go through it. Right. And it rises. There's not a lot of other songs on there that they're more emotionally like. It starts in this emotional place and it ends in that emotional place. And maybe it communicates something to you as you go through Village Ghetto Land. I am learning the point he's making, but the emotional attack is flat. Right. That's what it's supposed to be as it starts small and it grows and grows into this fever pitch.

[Wesley Morris]

I would just say one thing that we have all marveled at in the making of this show is that there are. I counted it's 15. There are. We've got 59 songs to deal with.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

None of them sounds. Not one of these songs sounds like the. Any of the other ones. They're all distinct and yet they're all classifiable. They all sound like they go on the album they're on. Right. But it's not like Stevie doesn't have any tricks or like, any formulas. We just. They're just so sophisticated that you would not ever think to call them tricks or formulas. But he is fond of starting on the first floor and winding up in the sky. Like that is a thing that he's very good at. So formally. I just find Florida sky arrangements in other songs more compelling. Right. Like you take Heaven is a Zillion Light Years. Yeah. I mean, like, where that starts and where that ends, like, that really works for me. The thing that it's not even that as doesn't work for me, it's that at some point it feel like I. It always struck me as being repetitive and I was never dialed into what it was repeating. Right. This mantra I felt was always like the mantra. Ness of it was locking me out. But it wasn't until, I mean, it was. It was deeper to me than you guys trying to convince me to come around to where you were. I felt in the room that day. I felt disappointment. And you. Oh, yes.

[Torre]

Really?

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yes. I felt like it was as close to shame as I think I ever came. And I was really, really hoping. I knew We. I mean, I'm not crazy. I mean, I know what it means to black people, especially this song.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I've been. We've all been to the, like to the as wedding. Right. I've been to many of those where people have come down to the aisle, they have like gone up the aisle. They have like, it's their first dance and oh my God, you better be you. You practice your ass dance is what I would say. It's. It's seven minutes. But I was nervous that I was not going to have. I really was hoping I'd have a conversion experience and wouldn't have to like, brain my way through.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Thinking about the importance. I mean, I could do. It would have been fine. But like for the show, it would have been great for me to feel in some way. Oh my God, I'm still crying. For me to feel what is actually happening in that song.

[Torre]

You don't feel it?

[Wesley Morris]

I never felt it. Well, wait, it was not until the moment that we're talking about in the show.

[Torre]

Well, there's a moment in the show that I remember where I was when I heard it. Cause I was in the gym and you're saying you're on the squat rack and as is hitting you viscerally and you're crying and I'm like, I know this nigga ain't crying on the squat rack. But you really were.

[Wesley Morris]

I was crying.

[Torre]

Tell the class about what happened. Well, it's so funny because like, now he's gonna cry.

[Wesley Morris]

No, I'm. I mean, I think the thing that is really powerful about Stevie Wonder in general is that he. I don't even know if. I mean, it's funny because we. We only had him for like half an hour. We got him to talk on the show. But I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't like, I only have a half an hour. It just like. It's just too logistical. But one of the things that I would have liked to have to have asked him and we did ask him about like writing love songs and he didn't quite. Something is coming through this man that he has a great deal of control over on the one hand, but no control over on the other. Like, he is. He is a He is a. He is a vein, like an emotional vein. And yet I think that writing love songs for him is a choice. When he could have been writing, he could have been Curtis Mayfield, right? Where, like, love is. Doing love is part of the equation. But there's like all of this city to deal with and the city, you know what I mean? Like other external sort of political, socio. Political class forces are overwhelming the love part. But Stevie, the love part is always. Is almost always in the foreground. And there was just something about standing there with this weight on my shoulders, like. Like squatting down and getting up. And it was something about that moment right before Preacher Stevie comes in. And it just like, I didn't even need that. I could just hear him metaphorizing what it means and what it takes to love someone and to feel love, to experience and receive it. And it is a galactic, supernatural, cosmic, cosmic. Like, it is a deep, deep thing to like, have someone transfer this positive energy into you and to receive it and then want to transfer it to someone else, right? Or transmit it to someone else because you keep yours, but then you give out more. It just hit me. It just hit me. And it would not. It would. I mean, maybe it would have happened, but it would never have happened if I hadn't. If we hadn't been working together. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Torre]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Torre]

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[Wesley Morris]

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[Torre]

There's a lot of political songs throughout this whole canon, right? We're talking about Nixon, we're talking about living for the city, right? This epic story. I look at it, living for the city as the great migration writ small. Right. The boy goes from the south, he goes up north, you know, gets trapped up with mass incarceration. Look what they've done to my life. I was getting fucked down south. I got fucked up north. Like, it's a really extraordinary, extraordinary song. And he's constantly commenting on political life in America.

[Josh Gwynn]

Yeah. I think, like, the experience that Wes was talking about having with AZ is one of. I think we all had that experience with different songs throughout the process. Like, I think when. Like, when someone is so fundamental to your, like, experience, you stop looking at it. Like, the Stevie that I got was the one that was the first time I knew who he was. Was. I was watching, like, a rerun, and I saw him with Denise and Theo on tv, and he's playing.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Torre]

That was your introduction to Stevie.

[Josh Gwynn]

I mean, that was the first time that I remember being like, oh, that's Stevie Wonder. And then, like, listening to songs that my parents would play or that, like, would play on the radio when my parents would drive me to Steve.

[Torre]

That's why they did that. The Cosby Show.

[Josh Gwynn]

Exactly.

[Torre]

Right. Because there's so many of us who already revere him, but there' people who don't yet know him.

[Josh Gwynn]

Right.

[Torre]

And let's put down a marker of, like, we're gonna introduce you, Stevie Wonder. And it's why they had Dizzy Gillespie on the show and why they had all these other people and the paintings. They had the whole thing to do that, to introduce that to you, which you would have discovered Stevie anyway.

[Josh Gwynn]

Right, Right.

[Torre]

But let's make sure he gets it here.

[Josh Gwynn]

And I think so, like, with Living for the City, I just don't think I ever. I knew it was like, a great migration story, but, like, I don't think that, like, I ever, like, sat down and, like, examined why it was resonated with me. I think that, like, my experience with music. I'm not a musician. But you are an aw.

[Wesley Morris]

You know what I mean?

[Josh Gwynn]

Like, you say, I have a great respect for musicians, and so I. But I'm a very instinctual.

[Wesley Morris]

You're a musical person.

[Josh Gwynn]

I have a musical ear, but, like, I have a really instinctual relationship with music. So, like, getting to sit down and kind of uncover the. Why my instincts have led me to, like, resonate with something was a really good, like, a really great experience.

[Torre]

That's like a little movie, right? Like, it's a lot of.

[Josh Gwynn]

It's a podcast. It's an audio movie.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

What? Living for the City.

[Josh Gwynn]

Living for the city. And we got to talk with Bob Marguleth about how they sat there with, like, their recorder, like, in the streets getting ambient sound, which is something that I've done, like, in my career, like. And they casted different people from their lives to play the different parts during the skit in the middle. And yeah, it was just really, really revolutionary in the way that they were able to bring. Sonically express what was happening in these brains.

[Torre]

It's so sad. I always wonder, why do I listen to it again? It's this great song and the resolution is so powerful when it goes into deep voice about how hard the world is. But I'm like, my God, when he gets arrested not knowing what he's doing. It's so sad. Why did I put this song on again?

[Wesley Morris]

Because it's a great gospel song.

[Josh Gwynn]

It's resonant and experience.

[Torre]

It's a simple exploitation song.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but I mean, musically, the thing that keeps you coming back. I mean, how many times have you watched the Mac? I mean, or like the Color Purple?

[Torre]

A million.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. I mean, was that you supposed to say?

[Torre]

Not that many.

[Wesley Morris]

That's my number one. All right, I'll take it back. Sorry. All right, I retract that. But the point is, it's not the blaxploitation ness of it that keeps you coming back. It is that moment once he. Like when you. When you suddenly get a. When the gift of a third verse. I love a song that seems like it could have ended two minutes ago, but when he. There's a third verse, and it's the third verse where, like, Stevie has switched his tone. Right. He's now angry.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. And so there's a kind of defiant. He's in defiance of the kind of storyteller he was at the beginning of the song. And now the storyteller is connected to the circumstances and the only appropriate responses.

[Torre]

And he's the preacher and he's the judge and he's sentencing society.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes. And. But it isn't so. I mean, you can still get that from Bob Dylan. Right. And Bob Dylan will give you seven verses. But what Bob can't give you is the celestial, the you know, you know, all of that sort of building choral arrangement that is like in major key. I mean, it's church, but a tragedy. Right. Like, this is music. It's not even music for a funeral. Right. Because it doesn't. I mean, I don't know. We've never talked about this, but, like, I feel like the holiness of this I don't even know what the ceremony would be, but it definitely is condemnation of a nation.

[Torre]

Imagine a political campaign that was. Their main plank was against mass incarceration. Right. This could be like. This is our theme song, Living for the City. Right. Because he comes down in the end. Like, if we don't change, the world will soon be over. Like, mass incarceration is along with poverty and inability to get jobs. That is a central problem for us.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but I mean. I mean, do you wanna call Kamala Harris and tell her that she is missing out on an opportunity to use one of the greatest songs ever recorded?

[Torre]

And freedom. And that's good for her.

[Wesley Morris]

There's always room for another song.

[Torre]

I mean, is there a favorite? Cause this is Stevie's main five albums that we are focusing on.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. Well, the five albums in this streak now, I mean. Cause listen. I mean, hotter than July in Square Circle. Jungle Fever. I mean, please. Are you wincing?

[Torre]

I am wincing because. Yes, I am wincing, Wesley, because those albums have great moments. These are great albums.

[Wesley Morris]

I just want to be clear about what we're. I don't. Something about the way you phrase that was just like, I'm. It gave me pause. And I think it's only that, like, I. One thing. Stevie Wonder, the only time I'm willing to, like, let him have the floor in this. In this arena is when we talk about these albums as though it ended in 1970. Right. I'm not saying that you're actually saying.

[Torre]

This streak of extraordinary of him at his highest level.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Torre]

Does end with this group of songs. With this. With songs on the key of life. Songs in the key of life.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, it does, but I don't think it's. I mean, I think it's just longer than that. Because what happens in these streaks to me, when someone is at their imperial, when they're out there having their imperial moment, and many pop stars, many artists have them. Music is the most interesting zone for me because you can do a lot in a short period of time. There's usually some serious fruitful afterburn where the person does not want to repeat what they already did. They really don't want to go near anything as remotely exhausting or successful as the previous thing. And they want to take some risks. Right. Which is why you go from songs in the key of life. There's a couple years off. I know, I know.

[Torre]

And I want to talk about the secret life of plants. And you make this really ridiculous. I mean, you make this interesting argument.

[Wesley Morris]

Let it be Ridiculous.

[Torre]

But before we get to that, okay, what is out of the Streak albums? Out of the albums that you focus on in this show, what is your favorite album? Can you even say one favorite?

[Josh Gwynn]

I feel like if you would have asked me before making the show, I would have said Songs in the Queue of Life. But I have such a different relationship to fulfilling this now. I know.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes.

[Josh Gwynn]

Like, and it's what I think the aim of the show was like. Like, understanding the story behind how he was making the music, understanding where he was and his. His biography at the time, understanding the conversation with Yolanda Adams, like, that contextualizes it as a gospel album, changed how I received the music. It changed how I listened to the music. And so probably that one, if only for this experience.

[Torre]

Is that your favorite out of this group?

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. Yes. And it was going in.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But I will say that now that we're done, like. And have I said this in front of you before? I don't know. I only. I don't have any regrets about what we did. But one thing. And we talked about this while we were making the show. I wish that. No pun intended. I wish that we could have spent more time on Music of My Mind. Right. Because that's the album to me, that every time. I mean, since we've finished recording and now the show is out, like, every time I go back to that, I'm like, it's the album where he's figuring out how to make the other four, even if he doesn't know it, Right? Sure.

[Torre]

For sure.

[Wesley Morris]

He's got this new toy. He's playing with it. He's a little kid. On the album, when you say the.

[Torre]

New toy, you mean the technology. But this is where he starts to have the freedom that you talk about. Right. In the 60s, Berry Gordy's very much in control of what they do. And then he says no. And he stands up to Barry. He demands artistic freedom. He gets it. It is a change.

[Wesley Morris]

Money, just clearly.

[Torre]

Yes, it's a massive change for Motown. It's a massive change for the music industry.

[Josh Gwynn]

Right?

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Torre]

And that's where he's starting to say, okay, I can make whatever I want. What do I wanna make? And that's extraordinary to watch.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes. But the thing about music in my mind is you can hear somebody playing too. Right. He's playing with what he can, like, literally say, like, the N word. And, like, I can chase women.

[Josh Gwynn]

He's like lion stepping.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. I mean, there's just so much. I can be an asshole. I can be an asshole in a song. I can be an asshole. I can be nice on one half of the song and then an asshole in the other half of the song.

[Torre]

But the asshole within the context of the song, he is making fun of that person. So he is clearly saying he's aware. Don't be like this.

[Wesley Morris]

He's aware. He's aware. But, I mean, there's also, like, some just genuine feeling in that moment. It's not. There are, like, comedy songs on that album. There's nine songs. Two of them are funny. Yeah, where were you when I needed you? Superwoman, slash, where, where were you when I needed you? Like, that is. That's not comedy, but it's commentary on the person who. Like the. You know, the person who starts the song off one way winds up another way or comes around, like, doesn't. He doesn't come around at the end. But you, as a listener are aware that this. That the person who wrote this song understands what it means to blame a woman for wanting all that she wants for herself and then being upset when it doesn't work out. And you should have been here to serve me. Right. Like, there's no moment in the song where it's not like, blame it on the son, which is on Talking Book, where, like, you know, like, the woman comes on at the end and is like, you.

[Josh Gwynn]

You blame it on what?

[Wesley Morris]

It's basically like, blame it on you now. Right. Conveniently, like, you want to say all this now, but you weren't.

[Josh Gwynn]

I've never seen inside of you before. Basically.

[Wesley Morris]

That's not what he's doing on Superwoman. Where were you when I needed you? Like, he's like. I mean, you don't know how to do your job as a. As a. As a partner.

[Torre]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

Period.

[Torre]

Right.

[Wesley Morris]

But, you know, as a listener, that Stevie, he's gonna figure it out and, like, by the time you get to the next album at the end of the year, Talking Book, I mean, there's no song on there remotely like, he's deeply emotional.

[Torre]

He's not a tortured person. Right. Like, I think some stars who have artists who have talked a lot and given us a wide array of emotions, and you could say at some level, they're tortured. I don't think he's a tortured person, do you?

[Josh Gwynn]

I think he's, like, a practical optimist.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Josh Gwynn]

I think he. When in that last episode, it was Wes, President Obama, and Stevie, and I think he's someone who just wants to see the best in people and is disappointed when they don't show up that way or when things aren't working out to the best potential that they can. Which is something that I feel like is really needed in our politics.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I think that. I mean, no, he is not a. He is not. Torture does not adhere to him. Right. Like, he's not. That is not his default setting as a human being. But the disappointment is real. Right to this day.

[Torre]

He.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, it is. He's making music. His new music is entirely about being disappointed by the way the world is.

[Josh Gwynn]

And even back then, they won't go when I go.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Josh Gwynn]

When he like, damns people to never see the sun.

[Torre]

Like Jesus Christ, brimstone preacher. Oh, my God. Fulfilling this first finale has a really special place in my heart because especially when I was in my 20s, when I felt depressed, I put that on seven, eight, nine, 10 times in a row. And it would carry me and lift me out.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Torre]

Right? And it's not like. It's not a happy album. It met me where I was depressed, but for the most part then I'm like, okay, I've. I've. I've seen you. I have respected you. Depression. Now I am leaving you. Right. I think a lot of people would.

[Wesley Morris]

Think put that's the arc of the album too.

[Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it. It seems smaller, right, Than some of the other ones, but it's so powerful, isn't it?

[Wesley Morris]

Alex, who calls it like a singer songwriter album. Yeah, I mean, he. Alex Papodimas, who's on the first half of the fulfilling this episode. He kind of likens its. Its importance and its uniqueness in this streak to like. This is like somebody sitting down with a guitar, except it's Stevie Wonder who'll sit down with all the instruments as though they were guitars and like strums out, you know, makes a Joni Mitchell record.

[Torre]

So beside as. Where did this immersion in Stevie Ness lead to? You changing. Oh, I thought that song was about this and it was actually about that. I thought this song meant this to me and it was actually about that. Cause surely there were places where you were like, I am changed in how I feel about this stuff.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, boogie on. I mean, so many. You know, it's funny because Fulfillingness does have the most songs where what I thought was going on is so much richer and more complicated, both as music and as experience, personal experience, than I would ever have known before we started making this show. Right. And so just to take. You haven't done nothing. Right. I mean, I guess on Its surface. I knew that it's a song about Nick. It's a song about his being angry and disappointed in the Nixon administration. But think about what it means. Cause Stevie at this point would have been 23. Think about what it means for, like, the former youngest person at Motown to then recruit the official youngest people at Motown to come sit. The Jackson 5 is who I'm talking about to come sing back up on this song about how Richard Nixon officially, I mean, essentially doesn't care about black people. And to, like, basically give the doo wop, the doo doo wops to the Jackson 5. And I'm looking at the liner notes. I looked at the liner notes for pretty much every. Every pass I took at these songs, and it just. We didn't use any of this. But I wrote it. I was just thinking about, like, what it would mean to, like, give them these exclamation points, which, you know, are like bats to just club Nixon over the head.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, it just. There were things. There's so many things like that. Like, just even sitting with. They won't listen to. Listening to Yolanda talk about what the gospel, the biblical gospel and the musical gospel of they won't go when I go is doing.

[Josh Gwynn]

You'll never see the sun S O n versus S U N. Like, I was like, mind blown.

[Wesley Morris]

The lady.

[Torre]

The word says they will never see the sun. And Yolanda, like me, originally thought, you'll never see the sun in the sky. But what he really means is the S O n Jesus. They'll never see oh, oh, oh Church.

[Wesley Morris]

That was me, though. Yolanda seemed to have always known that I was hearing suf.

[Torre]

She's like. She realized it in her Getting deeper into the Bible.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Well, I didn't think about it till Yolanda told me.

[Torre]

Right, right, right.

[Wesley Morris]

And it was. My mind was blown on the spot. But that album is the one that has so many rewards in that respect. Because I think it's just the one where, like, there is a world in which he doesn't make it. Right. I mean, he literally doesn't make it, like, to life. Right. He's dead because this is the album he makes in the wake of his car accident. But also it's an album he doesn't make because he doesn't have the car accident. And it's just in a different emotional. He's still happy and, you know, thinking and singing about. I don't know what the next album would have been. Right. You know, I mean, he, like. I mean, I think we joke that he could have stopped after Intervisions and it would have been. We'd have been fine.

[Torre]

Well, sure. No, for sure.

[Wesley Morris]

This is the sound of your ride home with dad after he caught you vaping. Awkward, isn't it?

[Torre]

Most vapes contain seriously addictive levels of nicotine and disappointment. Know the real cost of vapes?

[Wesley Morris]

Brought to you by the fda.

[Torre]

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[Wesley Morris]

Who would that even be now?

[Torre]

Beyonce.

[Josh Gwynn]

Beyonce.

[Torre]

Like, and this American Life, right, Did a whole episode on that about how black women go on dates and ask men, do you like Beyonce as a stand in for, do you like black women?

[Josh Gwynn]

Women, yes.

[Torre]

And if they don't say yes, then you don't get a second date.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Torre]

Which I'm like, yeah, if you're like, I don't fuck with Beyonce. Like, what do we have to talk about?

[Josh Gwynn]

Beyonce put out after. What was it after? During the Lemonade era, she put out merch that said boycott Beyonce. And I bought it at one of her tours. And I got so many interactions on the street that I didn't want to have. I was like, I would get people to be like, yes.

[Torre]

No, no, no.

[Josh Gwynn]

You failed the test. You failed the test. You didn't even know you failed the test. Thank you. Putting that shirt out. They tweeted a lot of people out.

[Wesley Morris]

Did you, like, what was the demographic of MeToo?

[Josh Gwynn]

It was interesting. I would. I would see. I would see black men and they'd be like, oh, yeah. But I would get a couple women too. That would be like, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. And I'm like, no, I stopped wearing it at one point because I was.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, it's like angry reverse maga, right? You want to. You want to know who we are as a people. Put on a boycott Beyonce shirt. It's. I mean, but let me think about this. I mean, because I think is a litmus for those purposes. True. But if you're going like, what would a man want to hear a woman say? Like, you know how Stevie is mutual for the two of them? Is there. Is there. Is there an artist that is universal enough for. And as much of a, like, humanity oriented food group?

[Torre]

It would depend on the.

[Wesley Morris]

It would just be Stevie Wonder.

[Torre]

It would. I mean, I. It would depend on your age.

[Wesley Morris]

Right?

[Torre]

Right. Like, if you're of a certain age, you gotta at least say you like Funkadelic. Right? Like, if you're like, fuck P. Funk. I'm like, who said? Right? I mean, like, if you're of a certain. Like, if you write like, a certain time. You said that. Like, beyond that, I'm like, for younger folks, I don't know. Do you have to like Jay Z?

[Wesley Morris]

No, no.

[Torre]

Do you have to like Andre 3000? I mean, like, I don't know what you wouldn't like about Andre 3000, but he's not.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, this is an interesting thing because we'll find out in 25, 30 years.

[Josh Gwynn]

Right.

[Torre]

It may be the inverse of, like, do you still like Kanye? Oh, you still like Kanye. And then we're not.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, that's an interesting one. That's an. Like, it'd be. It'd be. Yes. It would have to be the inverse.

[Torre]

But wait, so Obama's. Yeah, that was a zoom. Yes. With both of them at the same time?

[Josh Gwynn]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

Separately. No, they were separate.

[Torre]

Separately. Yeah.

[Josh Gwynn]

I think that's why it was, like, really awesome to hear, like, both sides of the same story.

[Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Gwynn]

And when you go back after you do an interview, you do, like, a transcript and, like, read like. And to hear both sides of the same coin was just, like, really, really, really awesome to hear. Like, and just, like, the way that they both, like, used him as like a, like a. Kind of like a shorthand for like, a certain Cultural understanding of, like, what was happening. I just thought that was really interesting.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing, you know, we. I honestly believe there's a version of this show that maybe I'm the host of, but there's a co host, right? And like, we could have made this show 15 different times, 15 different ways with Rick McLaughlin, Janelle Monae Questlove, Yolanda Adams, Barack and Michelle Obama separately, right? Barack Obama, Michelle Obama. We could have made it with Lorna Simpson, Thelma golden.

[Torre]

With different guests.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yes, for sure. I mean, all six episodes, for sure. Just me in conversation with somebody else, for sure. Like, top to bottom. And everybody is bringing their full, like, knowledge, feeling, curiosity, emotional state, their collection of emotional states. There were times when, you know, when we finished talking to Barack Obama, I'm like, he should just. Why isn't he just. This is his. He could just be doing this show.

[Torre]

And just host the show. For sure.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, the same for Michelle. I mean. But the great thing about having all these people is that you just. You are experiencing the. I don't know if we talked about this a little bit. I don't remember if this is in the sixth episode when we talk about the kids and stuff. But, like, if you think about all of the great American people who can trace their earliest or maybe most important developmental childhood moments to this man.

[Josh Gwynn]

Yeah, like when we. There's a moment in the show where we hear Michelle Obama and Thelma Goldin.

[Wesley Morris]

That'S just my favorite.

[Josh Gwynn]

And they're talking both about the experience of having, like, this cool elder, like an uncle or a cousin, who's, like, the gatekeeper of, like, the cool new music and their experience of. And ritual of, like, taking the record, making sure that the needle was. And they work in totally different fields. They're from different parts of the country. And they had this, like, universal experience around this music. And I think that that says something.

[Wesley Morris]

Culturally, I mean, physically. They sat.

[Torre]

They talk about being in a room with Obama and Stevie at the same time. Like, what the fuck?

[Wesley Morris]

I know, I know.

[Torre]

Who are you more excited to see that day?

[Wesley Morris]

I don't work that. I wish. I will be honest with you. I mean, mostly you just wanna get it right for Josh. Right? That was my most important concern. Like, I cannot fuck this up for Josh and Janelle. Like, I cannot, I cannot, I cannot, I cannot. I cannot. Like, I've never had more. I've never been more. I wasn't stressed out, but I was very aware of the assignment and I could not. I did not have time to like, I mean, I guess go off script is a great way to sort of think about what I was not doing that day. But at the same time, you like the, the person, the person with black people in his life in me, like, knows that you better be taking pictures in your brain. You better remember every single thing that.

[Josh Gwynn]

Happens because bucket list moment.

[Wesley Morris]

This is never going to be. This is never going to happen to you again in this way. So, I mean, I think between having this black person, Josh, like needing me to do something and like 45 black people in Philadelphia being like, you did what now and you didn't do what now? I really knew that I had a very specific job to do. But I also have to say, like, at the end of the day, they're both people. Right. And the thing that I. Yes, they are. They truly are. I mean, like, actually human beings that do the things that people do.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And for instance, when I'm. When I'm off asking a 400 word question that doesn't have a question mark at the end, and Barack Obama, who is sitting there listening to me like, try to land this plane for a man who is like, he doesn't know what's happening. And Barack Obama's like, I think what Wesley's trying to say here, you know what I mean? There's a lot of like, human moments like that where I'm like looking at, at the president and he's like, you just gotta let Stevie talk. You know what I mean? There's a lot of like, just like, don't interrupt or, you know, he and I were like a team. Right. And at some point you just realize that you're in. That you have a job to do and your job is to, is to, is to ask Stevie Wonder impossible questions that are impossible for any genius to answer. Like basically, where does your genius come from? Sure, sure. What do you think about the impact that you've. I mean, things you have to. Yeah, but, but things that, you know, you probably aren't gonna get.

[Torre]

Did he say about the music that illuminated anything to you about his music?

[Wesley Morris]

Well, the thing I think that he is again, like, I really was truly moved by and convinced by his belief that there is no difference between Stevie Wonder now in Stevie Wonder in 1972. It doesn't matter what we think.

[Torre]

That's what Stevie said.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yes. I mean, he obviously rephrasing, but I mean that he's still. It's still in him. The great music. It's still in him and it's still coming out of him, like. And he. He doesn't think that anything ended in 1976. Nothing. Like it continues to this day.

[Torre]

That notion of the streak that you talk about, that does not exist today.

[Wesley Morris]

He does.

[Torre]

He.

[Wesley Morris]

That is. That is for us to, like, mess around with. He. He's not into that. I mean, he supports. He.

[Torre]

He.

[Wesley Morris]

He supports the. He supports the show, but, I mean, the. The container that we're putting the art in, that doesn't exist for him.

[Torre]

Sure.

[Wesley Morris]

He doesn't even. I mean, like, how do you even count tenants that if you're him.

[Torre]

Sure.

[Wesley Morris]

Like, he's making music right now. No, he's on tour right now.

[Torre]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

So he cannot be contained by five. By four years. Right. Or five years. I don't know. I mean, you're listening for a different thing. So I'm curious about.

[Josh Gwynn]

I just did everything I could to make sure that there was a keyboard there. And I say that.

[Torre]

Good job.

[Josh Gwynn]

I just was like, having done the amount of research that I've done, and I just know, like, musicians, when words fail, music is what they lean to. And so.

[Wesley Morris]

And he did.

[Josh Gwynn]

And he did. And it was like being in front of an Olympian, like, you know.

[Wesley Morris]

Oh, yeah, that's a great way to.

[Josh Gwynn]

An Olympian. That is a poet.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Josh Gwynn]

Like, you know, and there was a.

[Wesley Morris]

Moment where he starts playing, and I looked at the president, and the president was, like, looking at me. We're both like, this is happening. This is happening in front of us. This is crazy. This is crazy.

[Josh Gwynn]

Oh, my God.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. No, I mean, because if you think about Barack. I mean, for me, it's a special moment. But if you're Barack Obama or like Thelma Golden, Michelle Obama, like anybody, and especially any black person who had the. Like, lay on the floor and look at the liner notes while the album plays. Moment. And that was how you experienced these albums. To be sitting in a room. I don't care. I mean. I mean, it is. I mean, it's Barack Obama. But at the end of the day, what I'm saying to you about being human is this person, this very important American human, is sitting there being transported. I'm just going to. I'm going to impute feelings to a person. I know what he was feeling in that moment. He was 11 again. He was 13 again. And he's on the floor of some house with this music, listening to this man answer questions in the form of a song. Right. And that was really. That's a thing I won't forget.

[Torre]

It's just like, it's just an interesting.

[Wesley Morris]

Not famous people, but people responding to people.

[Torre]

That happens in this piece. Cause you're going through these toweringly great albums that everyone's like, oh, my gosh, love this album. And you're celebrating them along with us. And it's just this great. And then we get to the secret life of pantalones and pantalones. You make an interesting intellectual point that you're like, he did the genius, and we should not constrain it there. It's kind of like the brushstroke continues. And whatever else you think about the seventh part or the sixth part, it's the continuation of the brushstroke. We gotta, like, see it all the way through.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. That's a great way to put it, actually. That's your argument, even as you dismiss.

[Torre]

No, I don't think.

[Wesley Morris]

But I do believe that your metaphor is exactly the way I'm.

[Torre]

Well, that's what you talk about. And I don't mind the scope of this going. We looked at the conventionally considered streak and we expanded it to say, well, what happened next? We could have done. Let's also look at where I'm coming from.

[Wesley Morris]

Right.

[Torre]

Like, what happened?

[Josh Gwynn]

We had that conversation.

[Wesley Morris]

We had that conversation.

[Torre]

But, like, you know, Secret Life of Plants is more controversial. It's the. You know. And you try to make the point that it's actually good.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, I do.

[Torre]

Because Barack is. Yeah, but see, And Barack is like, no, brother. Which is a great moment. It's a great radio moment.

[Wesley Morris]

It is.

[Torre]

But I mean, I would say this is a very. This is.

[Wesley Morris]

But I would challenge anybody. Cause, Okay, I would. Josh, you listened to this album in the context of making. In this show, you had not really given it a meaningful thought in how many years?

[Torre]

Maybe ever.

[Josh Gwynn]

Ever. I think, like, I'd heard, like, bits and pieces of it.

[Torre]

There's one great song on there that travels beyond this album that people know of, that they don't even know that it came from this album.

[Wesley Morris]

Send One youe Love. Yeah.

[Josh Gwynn]

Send one you love.

[Torre]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure.

[Wesley Morris]

All right.

[Torre]

But do you like the album?

[Josh Gwynn]

I like.

[Torre]

There you go. No, wait. There you go, right there.

[Josh Gwynn]

Do that.

[Wesley Morris]

Don't do that.

[Torre]

It's fine.

[Josh Gwynn]

I like. I had the same experience with that album that I did with a lot of the music, which is like the song, like, Race Babbling. We talked to Questlove about it and it being a proto house song. I'd never listened to it in that context before. So listening to the album, I got to Listen to the album in a different way is my answer.

[Wesley Morris]

I also would say just the thing that makes it important in the context of these albums was I think that he. He was probably at a place where he felt like he had said everything. He couldn't have been more successful. And I am just so fascinated by and moved by the idea that the project that got him out of the, like, not wanting to make any music for a little while. Funk was an opportunity to practice his animism and empathy for the good of the planet and to express a botanical wonder in who we are. Right. Like, in our relationship to this other way of being.

[Torre]

Why does it have to be instrumental? Like, it's some more music. There's some more melodies.

[Wesley Morris]

Okay. But, Trey, if you just waited for six months, you got hotter than July. Like, no, I know.

[Torre]

You know, I like.

[Wesley Morris]

It came. He knew what he was doing.

[Torre]

He knew what he wanted to do.

[Wesley Morris]

Right. He did it. He did it. He made the album. He truly wanted to make. Give a fuck about what anybody was going to think.

[Torre]

That's right.

[Wesley Morris]

And then he made the one that would be like, oh, Stevie's back. Thank the Lord.

[Torre]

I mean, proves. I mean, like, he had not lost it. Right. He chose to go in a different direction. That's fine. I don't know if this was a successful direction at all.

[Wesley Morris]

No.

[Torre]

But if I said, we're gonna sit here and listen to Secret Life Plans start to begin, start to front, would you be like, yeah, let's do it. Or you'd be like, yes. Yeah.

[Josh Gwynn]

Especially if we could watch the movie, too.

[Wesley Morris]

Yes.

[Torre]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's an album. No, I mean, you can watch the movie, too. All the other albums, obviously, we'd be like, yo, it's gonna be a great album.

[Wesley Morris]

When is the last time you listened to it? I tell you. I mean, you've got a great critical brain. I'm telling you also, you're. You've got an open humanity. You will listen to this album and you're gonna feel bad about how you're treating us.

[Torre]

No, I won't.

[Wesley Morris]

No.

[Torre]

I got. I remember being very young, maybe 8 years old, and my mother. I think the first time I was aware of this album was my mother poo pooing it. Cause she was a big Motown fan, a big Stevie fan. Marvin Gaye was her guy. And like this. And she must have been like, oh, my God. Talking book. Oh, my God. This album. Oh, my God. I'm sure, like, songs, the Key of Life, they Were, like, playing all the time when we were, like, five, six years old. And then this. She was like.

[Wesley Morris]

But that was. There was a real generational. I mean, that's a story Questlove. Questlove tells about his dad.

[Torre]

That's a great story, right. That Questlove's dad listened to this album, and he's like, clearly, I am not down with what the kids are doing today. No more contemporary music for me.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, imagine that. That's the thing. I mean, can you imagine what, like, Lil Durk would have done?

[Josh Gwynn]

I just love the fact that I love when an artist has, like, done the thing and they're like, I'm gonna do what I want now.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah.

[Josh Gwynn]

Like, I just love that action.

[Torre]

I support that action. I support, you know, inventiveness and trying new things. And obviously, not every exploration is gonna be successful. Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

But what I would also say is. I mean, this is not. I would not. This is not inadmissible in the court of this argument. But what I would. What I would put in the brief is that there are so many artists who hear this album and feel spoken to. Right. There are so many.

[Torre]

Solange talks about the show.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, Janelle Monae, Quest Love.

[Josh Gwynn]

I mean, Janelle Monae wrote, like, wrote.

[Wesley Morris]

That was her. One of her first school play, like, performance situations was like, interpolating Secret Life of Plants. Right. I think if you take just those three artists, Solange, Janelle, Monae, and Questlove, and you just extrapolate outward. I like, who else. Who else heard this and was not.

[Torre]

Like, you Take me back, though. I had a conversation with Quest a long time ago, and he had said. And this changed my thinking about music. He was like, I no longer think about music as far as good and bad. I'm just looking to see what it does and why it functions or doesn't. And I was like, well, that's very liberating to think about things. Cause we're like critics. We're always, like, up, thumbs down. And I'm like, no, no, no. Like, what to say. What is it is more. And it would be more interesting in this conversation to talk about what the Secret Life of Plants is. But it's more fun to tell you, no. Whether you're wrong, the album sucks. Why are you making.

[Wesley Morris]

Yeah, but I would never let you just leave it at that, because I just think that there's so much more on this and so much more is happening than good or bad.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

And by the way, like, talk about kids and stuff, like, the most beautiful parts of this album involve things being born, kids being put to sleep, lullabies. I mean, there's just so much listeners.

[Torre]

Being put to sleep.

[Wesley Morris]

I mean, fine, but like, I mean, it is being there are lullabies of love and care. It's not necessarily to bore you.

[Torre]

What was the thing that Stevie said to you while you guys were together that most stays with you?

[Wesley Morris]

It wouldn't be a quote, but, I mean, I definitely wanted to talk to him because we had this interview maybe a month after that Jan Wenner story broke where, you know, he. You know, all of the things that he is quoted as having said, including things about Stevie Wonder being, you know, one of the very few people to have any relationship with them, like black people, to have a meaningful relationship culturally with the magazine for. For a period. And I was. I was, you know, I was really eager to see, like, oh, I want to. I want to see Stevie give it to y'all. Let's see Stevie get in there and beat yon the fuck up, you know, but he was so. He just dismissed the question out of hand. Yeah, he didn't want to. He just didn't want to go there. And he. Not only. It's not that he didn't want to go there. He just was like, I'm not going to dwell on this.

[Torre]

No.

[Wesley Morris]

People want to be ignorant and say stupid stuff. Let them say stupid stuff. I know my worth. Yeah. I know the problems of this country and I know that this is an.

[Torre]

This is.

[Wesley Morris]

This is an example. This is a good example of it. But, I mean, I'm not going to sit here and talk shit about Jan Wenner. I am going to say that there is ignorance in the world and we need to move past it.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

Period.

[Torre]

Yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

I really was. I don't. I'm not a big questions asker of people in my life. It's another thing that changed my life about this show. Like, having to interview so many different people about a variety of different things. But I think that that was a moment where like, oh, I understand what happened. Like, you asking a provocative question may not get you the answer you want, but it gets you the answer. That's true. And that answer, that response to me was so true to the person I was asking the question to.

[Torre]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wesley Morris]

He is a practical optimist.

[Torre]

Yeah. No, for sure. It's an extraordinary podcast. I love the. Listen, I love the way you voice this show, Wesley.

[Josh Gwynn]

Thank you.

[Torre]

I mean, like, we already knew you were good at broadcasting, but I think the way you are talking your way through. This is extraordinary. Somebody who's sat in that chair. I'm like, that was. He was good. He was good there. He did a good one there.

[Wesley Morris]

Thank you.

[Torre]

It was good. And Josh, thank you so much, you guys. Thank you so much for coming through.

[Wesley Morris]

Doesn't happen.

[Torre]

Love the show.

[Wesley Morris]

This guy just like, really, truly one of the pleasures. Same friend of my. Microphone oriented life.

[Torre]

I want to cry.

[Wesley Morris]

He's working with these guys.

[Josh Gwynn]

Turn on ass.

[Wesley Morris]

There we go.

[Torre]

Let's cry together. Thank you, guys.

[Wesley Morris]

Thanks for having us. Yes, for sure.

[Torre]

Thank you for listening to Torre show. Torre show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast you into a life you never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. And maybe somehow this show can help. You can find me on Twitter or on TikTok or Torreshow and on Instagram or Torrey Shows written by me and produced by Ashley Hobbs. Our editor is Ryan Woodhull. Our booker is Ray Holiday, and we're distributed by DCP Entertainment. And we will be back with more guests next Wednesday because the man can't shut us down.