Podcast Summary: Toure Show – Episode Featuring ZZ Packer: "I Have a 1,000 Page Novel"

Introduction

In this compelling episode of The Toure Show, host Touré engages in an in-depth conversation with acclaimed fiction writer ZZ Packer. The discussion centers around Packer's ambitious second novel, a Civil War-era epic spanning over 1,000 pages, and delves into her intricate writing process, creative challenges, and the profound historical insights embedded within her work.

Overview of ZZ Packer’s Novel: "The Thousands"

Concept and Historical Context

ZZ Packer’s forthcoming novel, tentatively titled The Thousands, is a monumental project that explores the lives of the Buffalo Soldiers—African American cavalry units that played a pivotal role in American history. The novel intricately weaves the soldiers' experiences post-Emancipation as they navigate the complexities of moving westward, confronting native populations, and combating institutionalized racism.

Plot and Characters

The narrative is multi-faceted, encompassing three primary storylines:

1. Lazarus and His Sister ([03:02] Packer): Set just after Emancipation, Lazarus escapes Mississippi for Louisiana with his deaf sister, facing new societal challenges in a predominantly white and tumultuous environment.

2. Cathay Williams ([05:01] Packer): Inspired by the real-life story of Cathay Williams, a woman who masqueraded as a man to serve in the Buffalo Soldiers, the character grapples with identity and survival in a rigid military structure.

3. Colonel Edward Hatch ([10:12] Packer): A white colonel leading the 9th Cavalry, Hatch exemplifies a progressive figure who contrasts sharply with contemporaries like the notorious General Custer, illustrating the internal conflicts within the military and society.

Research and Historical Accuracy

Packer emphasizes the extensive research undertaken to authentically portray the Buffalo Soldiers' historical milieu. "It took part of my lifetime just to actually get the history right," she states ([10:20] Packer). This dedication ensures that the novel not only narrates personal stories but also sheds light on the broader societal and political dynamics of the era.

Writing Process and Challenges

Time and Life Challenges (Single Motherhood)

Balancing motherhood with the demands of writing a sprawling novel has been a significant challenge for Packer. She acknowledges, "Children will slow you down" ([04:10] Packer), highlighting the intricate dance between personal responsibilities and creative pursuits.

Creative Process: Plot Structure and Story Architecture

Packer delves into her obsessive focus on plot structure and story architecture, drawing from various theories and frameworks to support her complex narrative. "Creativity is inseparable from intellectual problem solving," she explains ([13:18] Packer), illustrating her methodical approach to crafting intricate plots and multi-dimensional characters.

Narratology and Consciousness in Writing

Her exploration of narratology— the study of narrative structure—plays a crucial role in her writing. Packer discusses the importance of understanding point of view and perspective, stating, "What does limited point of view mean? What does omniscience mean?" ([18:56] Packer). This deep dive ensures her storytelling remains both nuanced and psychologically compelling.

Advice to Aspiring Writers

Common Mistakes: Macro and Micro

Packer categorizes writing pitfalls into macro and micro mistakes:

• Macro Mistakes: Including excessive coyness or irony that detracts from clarity. "Just don't be coy. Just don't be ironic," she advises ([19:39] Packer).

• Micro Mistakes: Such as overusing words like "said" in dialogue, which can hinder narrative flow. "The word 'said' is fine; you don't have to change it to something elaborate," she notes ([25:23] Packer).

Emphasis on Clarity and Meaning

She underscores the foundational importance of clarity and meaning in writing. Drawing from her mentor Frank Conroy, Packer explains the fiction pyramid where communication—comprising meaning, sense, and clarity—is paramount before layering in elements like voice, tone, and metaphor ([28:46] Packer).

Importance of Reading and Developing Taste

A fervent advocate for voracious reading, Packer believes that immersing oneself in literature is essential for developing a writer's sense of taste and narrative intuition. "There are plenty of people who want to write a novel, but they can't tell you the last book they read," she emphasizes ([33:26] Packer).

Publishing Journey

Long-term Project and Publishing Industry Changes

Packer candidly discusses the prolonged journey of writing her novel, spanning 15 years, and the evolving nature of the publishing industry. She reflects on how major publishing houses have merged, intensifying the pressure to meet deadlines and market demands. "They are owned by a conglomerate," she observes ([48:43] Packer).

Book Deals and Editorial Process

While Packer currently lacks a publishing deal for her extensive manuscript, she remains optimistic about its eventual acquisition. She shares frustrations with the industry's accelerated timelines, contrasting them with the more patient, albeit slower, traditional publishing processes. "I have no fear about it being taken," she asserts ([48:43] Packer).

Personal Insights and Reflection

Superpower in Writing

When prompted about her "superpower," Packer reflects on her unwavering determination and heightened awareness. "Awareness and a sort of dogged determination to like, be aware," she shares ([99:18] Packer). This mental resilience allows her to navigate complex themes and persist in her creative endeavors despite external pressures.

Generational Observations

Packer offers keen insights into generational differences, particularly between Generation X, Millennials, and Zoomers. She discusses how digital immersion shapes Millennials and Zoomers, impacting their reading habits and cognitive engagement with information. "They're kind of captive to it," she notes ([85:10] Packer), highlighting challenges in fostering deep, contemplative reading practices in an age of perpetual digital stimulation.

Future Plans for the Novel

Packer expresses a sense of urgency in completing her novel, driven by a desire to see her extensive research and creative vision realized. She mentions setting personal deadlines and seeking fellowships to carve out dedicated writing time. "If I can't do it this year, it's like it's a sort of shit or get off the pot kind of thing," she admits ([97:34] Packer).

Conclusion

This episode of The Toure Show offers a profound glimpse into ZZ Packer’s literary journey, emphasizing the intersection of meticulous historical research, personal perseverance, and the relentless pursuit of narrative excellence. Packer's insights serve as invaluable guidance for aspiring writers navigating the complexities of storytelling and the evolving demands of the publishing landscape.

Notable Quotes

• “Creativity is inseparable from intellectual problem solving.” – ZZ Packer ([13:18] Packer)

• “Just don't be coy. Just don't be ironic.” – ZZ Packer ([19:39] Packer)

• “There are plenty of people who want to write a novel, but they can't tell you the last book they read.” – ZZ Packer ([33:26] Packer)

• “If I can't do it this year, it's like it's a sort of shit or get off the pot kind of thing.” – ZZ Packer ([97:34] Packer)

Final Thoughts

ZZ Packer's dedication to her craft and her ability to intertwine complex historical narratives with rich character development make her upcoming novel a highly anticipated work in contemporary fiction. Her candid discussion on The Toure Show not only sheds light on the challenges of large-scale writing projects but also inspires writers to embrace clarity, depth, and unwavering commitment in their creative pursuits.