257. Chris Voss Returns! Former FBI lead crisis negotiator on reading people, building instant trust, & and turning pressure into power - the negotiation tactics YOU need to know

Summary

Trading Secrets Episode 257: Chris Voss Returns!

Guest: Chris Voss (Former FBI Lead Crisis Negotiator, Author, Entrepreneur)
Host: Jason Tartick
Release Date: October 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features the celebrated negotiation expert Chris Voss, renowned as the FBI’s former lead international hostage negotiator and the founder of the Black Swan Group. Host Jason Tartick dives deep into actionable negotiation tactics and real-world advice for navigating both high-stakes situations and everyday life decisions. The conversation covers everything from political negotiations and business dealings to relationships and self-worth, providing “trading secrets” listeners can immediately use.

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Main Themes

• The Art and Science of Negotiation: Real-world strategies for reading people, building trust, handling pressure, and securing better outcomes in negotiations.
• Negotiation in Business, Politics, and Personal Life: How principles from high-stakes environments (hostage situations, international politics) apply in relationships, workplaces, and financial decisions.
• Self-Protection & Power in Negotiation: When to walk away, how to detect bad deals, and why your intuition is your most powerful tool.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Modern Political Negotiations & Trump’s Tactics

[02:21-08:08]

• Chris Voss analyzes current political negotiations, highlighting how Donald Trump negotiates differently compared to traditional politicians.
  • Quote: “He doesn’t want to waste time. And if you’re going to waste his time, he’s not willing to stay in and get a lousy deal... no deal is better than a bad deal. He knows that.” (Chris Voss, 04:44)
• Politicians often 'grandstand' rather than negotiate for outcomes; Trump cuts through this by seeking direct, outcome-driven talks.
• Practical Insight: Avoid “negotiating to stay employed.” Go after real results and outcomes, not just appearances.

2. Negotiation Tactics: Extreme Anchoring vs. Accusation Audit

[09:27-15:22]

• Extreme Anchoring: Opening with an assertively high offer is context-dependent and best for environments where a deal is likely (e.g., mediation, trade deals).
  • Quote: “Extreme anchoring tends to be effective if you’re locked into a relationship and going to make a deal. But if not, you risk driving away the other party.” (Chris Voss, 10:23)
• Accusation Audit: Proactively naming concerns or objections before the other side brings them up.
  • “You’re going to hate me for this, but…” disarms emotional pushback.
• Never burn bridges—even when you walk away, do so with respect (“In a limo, out in a limo”—the Oprah rule).

3. Dealing with ‘Ghosting’ in Personal and Professional Relationships

[15:22-19:46]

• Being ghosted often means your previous communication didn’t make the other party feel progress.
• Actionable Tool: Use the “Have you given up on...” question. If you get silence, that’s your answer.
  • Quote: “If you get silence, the answer is yes—they have given up.” (Chris Voss, 19:37)

4. High-Stakes Negotiations: Prenups, Mediation & Laying Bad News

[20:39-26:44]

• Raise dealbreakers (like prenups) as early as possible.
• Accusation Audit Applied: Voice the negative assumptions (“You’re going to think I’m a despicable person for bringing this up”) before presenting your point. People handle bad news much better when “sufficiently warned.”
  • Quote: “Don’t pull your punches. Say it as negatively as you can... if you do it really well, your bad news is going to be a relief.” (Chris Voss, 24:20)

5. Hostage Negotiation Translated: Relief Through Understanding

[28:05-30:42]

• Walking into a family’s home during a kidnapping, Chris immediately acknowledges their emotions (“I know you’re scared, angry, abandoned...and you blame me.”) to build instant trust and clear negativity.
• Quote: “I’ve cleaned out all the negativity... if you understand me that well, the chances of you understanding this situation are very high.” (Chris Voss, 30:21)

6. Handling Tight-Lipped or Narcissistic Negotiation Opponents

[31:01-40:55]

• If someone is reserved, it’s likely due to past betrayals or not feeling heard. Deep curiosity will break down their barriers—people open up when they feel genuinely listened to.
• With narcissists or “control freaks,” the answer is clear: walk away. Bad deals block good deals and cost far more in the long run.
  • Quote: “No deal is better than a bad deal, and a bad deal usually costs five times as much as a good deal.” (Chris Voss, 39:10)
• Recognizing Red and Yellow Flags: Trust your gut—when you sense something’s off, heed the warning early.

7. The Power and Science of Intuition

[43:45-44:28]

• Your subconscious processes 20 million bits of information per second versus 40 for your conscious mind—use your gut instincts for decision-making.
  • Quote: “The subconscious mind, which feeds your gut, per second is 20 million to 40. 500,000 to 1 ratio.” (Chris Voss, 43:59)

8. Emotional Intelligence in Negotiation

[45:04-48:10]

• Emotions like anger are often a mask for fear or injury. Authentic anger differs fundamentally from strategic displays of anger, which are short-term manipulations that have long-term destructive consequences.
• Recognize the difference between genuine and manufactured emotional displays.

9. Negotiating Compensation and Value at Work

[50:24-53:23]

• Demonstrate you were and continue to be a bargain to your employer; show how you drive ROI.
• Frame the conversation around the future and your continuing impact to justify raises or promotions.
  • Quote: “An employee that understands how they’re moving the needle is ten times more valuable than somebody who’s completely oblivious to their actions’ impact on a company.” (Chris Voss, 52:06)

10. Biggest Negotiation Mistakes and the Chris Voss Trading Secret

[53:54-55:05]

• Be willing to articulate what your gut tells you the other person is worried about. Anticipating negative impacts and expressing emotional intelligence makes you the kind of professional or partner people want to keep around.
  • Quote: “Just be willing to articulate what your gut’s telling you the other person is thinking and think about the future.” (Chris Voss, 53:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “No deal is better than a bad deal.” (Chris Voss, multiple times — 04:44, 39:10, 40:55)
• “Say out loud what you know they’re going to think. Call out the elephant in the room, don’t deny it.” (Chris Voss, 22:15)
• “Curiosity is an irresistible force... no matter how tight lipped you are, if I’m deeply curious, you’re going to open up.” (Chris Voss, 33:16)
• “The warning label: this should be used to put you and your partners and your business and your life in a better spot, not as forms of manipulation.” (Jason Tartick, 71:03)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Trump’s negotiation style vs. traditional politics: [02:21]
• Anchoring vs. Accusation Audit: [10:14]
• Ghosting explained & the power of 'Have you given up on...?': [15:48]
• Accusation audits in relationships and prenups: [21:13]
• Real hostage negotiation story – providing relief through understanding: [28:25]
• Unlocking tight-lipped people and using curiosity: [32:02], [33:14]
• Dealing with narcissists/control freaks & trusting your gut: [39:10], [43:45]
• Why and how to negotiate raises and salaries effectively: [50:24]
• Biggest negotiation mistake – honest articulation: [53:54]

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Actionable “Trading Secrets” from Chris Voss

• Always address the other side’s concerns before they voice them—it's disarming and builds trust.
• Walk away early when you sense a deal is wrong; sticking with bad deals blocks good opportunities.
• Your intuition is a supercomputer; learn to distinguish between gut feeling and wishful or fearful thinking.
• Show you’re a bargain and focused on making an impact when negotiating pay—think like your boss!
• Emotional intelligence and honesty, even when bearing bad news, go farther than strategic deception.

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Resources and Where to Learn More

• Visit BlackSwanLTD.com for Chris Voss’s negotiation community and training resources.
• Chris’s bestselling books: Never Split the Difference, Empathy and Uncertainty in Business, The Full Fee Agent.

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Stay tuned at the end of the episode for Jason and David’s reflective recap, which translates Voss’s negotiation wisdom into relatable, everyday takeaways about business, relationships, intuition, and personal growth.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

Foreign. Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. Today I am joined again by author, entrepreneur, professor, and most notably former member of the FBI known as the master negotiator, Chris Voss. Chris earned that title throughout his time serving as the lead crisis negotiat for the New York City division of the FBI and then as FBI's chief international hostage and kidnapping negotiator. In 2008, after spending 24 years and working 15 plus international hostage cases. 15, 15 plus 150. 150. We lost the zero there. International hostage cases for the FBI. Chris founded the Black Swan Group, which serves as a consulting and training agency for both businesses and individuals on negotiating skills. He has published New York Times best selling books. We're going to get into each of those. He is talking all over the country and educating the art of negotiation from all things in the workplace, financially, personally, and of course, professionally. Chris, we are so excited to have you back on Trading Secrets. Thank you for being here.

[Chris Voss]

Pleasure's mine.

[Podcast Host]

All right, I think this is where I want to start. I was thinking, you know, you do a lot of interviews. In a lot of your interviews, there's a lot of similar questions and we're going to get to those because I got to make sure my listeners get all those tactics. But I want to start with something that seems very relevant right now.

[Co-host Jason]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

And I don't want to get into politics unless that's the way you want to go. But I do want to get into the idea that it feels as though that there's a lot of negotiations happening domestically and international, internationally with President Trump. You know, he's written books on negotiating. There's a lot happening in tariffs in Ukraine and Russia, now Venezuela. There's the hostage negotiation still trying to happen with Hamas. That just seems like every headline in America has to do with some form of negotiation that is also impacting the economy and business. From someone like yourself, the master negotiator, what's your take on kind of his tactics and what he's doing? Because it seems like everyone's got a different opinion on it.

[Chris Voss]

I love what he's doing. And I did an interview just the other day talking about, you know, the question was, you know, he's unpredictable. He's not unpredictable. He's eminently predictable.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Chris Voss]

And it's very different because the other thing that I love about what he's doing is politics as they used to be. Pre Trump, the political negotiators are sort of like divorce attorneys. They don't negotiate for outcomes. They negotiate to Stay employed. And so the negotiations drag on and on and on. They're not negotiations. A lot of grandstanding people stand up, talk at each other, whether it be US State Department employees, you know, they say things that make themselves feel good and they never get to outcomes. And if they do get to outcomes, they're horrible. And the interesting thing I found out about President Trump these days, like his first term, he relied upon people to do those negotiations on his behalf. And then you get some stuff that if you were to ask him candidly about the deal that he did in Afghanistan just towards the end of his last term, he had government negotiators working for him. It was a lousy deal. You know, they put 5,000 Taliban back on a battlefield. And now with version 2.0, where he's at now, he's not relying on any of those people. He had enough time to prepare. He's got business oriented people that are interested in outcomes, good outcomes. And so he wants to negotiate. He doesn't want to play games. He's trying to bring Russia and Ukraine together. And he finds Putin of Russia effectively playing games. So he just stops talking to him. He doesn't continue to seem desperate to stay at the table. You know, they get them together in Alaska, they have a meeting. Whatever Putin says in person, he clearly acts differently. And so what is President Trump, instead of begging like past political leaders would have done, he's like, yeah, I'm going to look at something else. I'm not going to waste my time on this when you're not serious. And he doesn't engage a lot of government negotiators that want to come up with some half assed deal with Russia. So he means what he says. He doesn't want to waste time. And if you're going to waste his time, he's not willing to stay in and get a lousy deal. You know, no deal is better than a bad deal. He knows that a deal full of political compromise is a ship that's going to sink. It's lousy. So he's just not interested in it. He says what he means, he tries to engage personally. I'm watching a news clip. A lot of uproar today about what they're gonna do with ice in Chicago. So he's standing up in front of the press and he says, look, I think he called for either the mayor of Chicago or the governor of Illinois to give him a call.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[Chris Voss]

And they won't. Like, if you give him a call and you talk to him personally, it's amazing how things work out and nobody really notices that example. He's in a rock fight for years with Trudeau, the Prime Minister of Canada. And you don't want to get in a rock fight with him publicly because he doesn't like it and he retaliates very strongly. One thing you'll notice with him is he doesn't start him. But if you start with him, you know, there's kind of an old country boy phrase, don't start none, won't be none. As soon as you start with him, he's going to hit back really hard. He's trying to teach people he doesn't want to get into a public rock fight.

[Podcast Host]

Is that a good negotiation tactic from your lens?

[Chris Voss]

It's. Yeah, it's an effective tactic as long as coupled with that, if you sit down in person, you work things out. So getting back to Trudeau, yeah, rock fight back and forth, going on for years. Trudeau's finally on the ropes and he sees that people go down to Mar? A Lago and seem to settle things with Trump. He flies down to Mar A Lago, has an in person meeting, and suddenly everything's okay. Now, the problem with the politicians engaging in these rock fights for years, which is stupid. Now suddenly Canada's mad at him for supposedly doing a deal with the bad guy, when in point of fact, he goes down. They go face to face, they come to an agreement, which happens over and over and over, which is why he said, the mayor of Chicago, Governor of Illinois, give me a call, we'll talk. It's as simple as that. You know, sit down and talk. Talk to him in person. Don't throw rocks, don't make public statements that embarrass people or preach to the choir. Sit down, talk to him in person, and you see it happen over and over and over. Bill Maher, critical of him for years. Mar goes and sits down with him in the White House. And, you know, God bless Bill Maher for being honest. He says, you know, the man I engaged with was charming, personable, felt, well hosted. You know, he was a gentleman. And no deal is a deal until President Trump signs off on it. He doesn't want to deal through intermediaries. He's got a couple of people working for him right now that he knows will do a good job on his behalf. They won't compromise. And then he wants the final approval of the deal. It's eminently predictable. Interesting, but nobody wants to engage with it. Politicians, they want to make noise in the media, they want to Preach to the choir and they're satisfied with lousy deals. And he's not interested in lousy deals.

[Podcast Host]

I find that fascinating, especially coming from someone with your experience and realm. And negotiating scaling your business requires requires.

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[Podcast Host]

In a lot of your books and a lot of your lectures and speaking, you, you have a lot of phrases that I'll be referring to for my listeners. So if I get any of them incorrect, please correct me. But one. And this could be incorrect, but one is the accusation audit and right. It's the idea of kind of starting the conversation, you're going to hate me for this and then repositioning it to kind of set the standard. When I was seeing a lot of the negotiations on the tariffs. Am I using this correctly by saying there was a form of accusation audit being used from the negotiation standpoint when we would say we're going to come in with like an aggressive 50% tariff and then utilizing that to actually get where you. Where he wanted to get with the tariff? Or is that not.

[Chris Voss]

That's a little bit more of classic bargaining where you're starting high. Okay. You know, you're gonna, you're gonna extreme anchor.

[Podcast Host]

Extreme anchoring.

[Chris Voss]

And the thing about extreme anchoring is it's context dependent that tends to be effective if you're in a negotiation where you're gonna make a deal which is why frequently extreme anchoring and mediation is effective. Because if you're in a mediation, both sides have kind of sat down and we're going to make a deal, and in a trade negotiation, basically, we're going to make a deal. If you're a trading partner, that should be respected. If you've got assets and resources that are worth negotiating over, and you know, we're going to make deals, trade, trade with the United States. The economy is too big. There's too much investment capital here. The United States remains the entrepreneur center of the world. You know, there's some interesting theories as to why that is. And there. There are probably several contributing factors. One that I was listening to recently, and I wish I could tell you which famous businessman you know, because I'm following a lot of these guys, but he said there's more investment, there's more risk capital here. More and more people are willing to spend money, venture capital than anywhere in the US So if this is where the money is, the entrepreneurs are going to come here. That's prob. One of the reasons. So extreme anchoring tends to be effective to getting to where you want to be. If you're locked into a relationship where you're going to make a deal. Now, extreme anchoring is a problem. If I don't got to make a deal with you and you're going to drive the other side from the table. An extreme anchor with somebody who wants to deal with you collaboratively. You extreme anchor with me, I'm probably going to walk away. I'm going to be insulted. And, you know, we had. This happens to me all the time, unfortunately. People get asked, people negotiate with you. Do they use your techniques on you? And what happens? Well, if they use the techniques on me and they're trying to collaborate with me, I love it. Everybody on my team uses Black Swan on me because we're collaborative.

[Podcast Host]

We used it on you once.

[Chris Voss]

And we're collaborative, are we not?

[Podcast Host]

We're collaborative. It worked. It was. We were trying to get you to come on the podcast, and we were working with your team, and we just wrote to them, have you given. Given up on this? And they responded and we got it booked.

[Chris Voss]

Boom.

[Podcast Host]

It worked.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Collaborative.

[Chris Voss]

Collaborative number. Yeah, Collaborative and context appropriate. I could get more into that in a second. But if you use your skills on me and I could tell you're trying to cheat me, then I'll walk away, too. Got it. And that happens a lot. And I'll smell it. Because one of the most important things in negotiations is to know who to walk away from. And we counsel that with everybody that we teach. No deal is better than a bad deal. You can sniff out a bad deal in the first 15 to 20 minutes if you're listening. And I teach everybody in my company, we walk away from those deals. I teach people to walk away from those deals politely. Just because you're going to walk away doesn't mean you need to walk away in a huff or, you know, cheap shots, angry words. They'll always be respectful, with respect and regard. Sort of what we refer to as the Oprah rule. I learned a long time. I heard a long time ago, because we were talking about the last impression is the lasting impression, which means you should always end positively regardless. So I'm talking to one of Oprah's people, and she says, oh, yeah, Oprah's always lived by that rule. And in the entertainment industry, it's usually in. In a limo, out, in a taxi. As soon as we got what you want, go out on the street, catch a ride. On your own. You're on your own. Oprah preach to her people in an alemo, out in a limo, no matter how it went, people are gonna be loved, felt loved, regarded, respected. At the end, even if we disagreed, even if you refused to be on my show, then Oprah, her last words to everybody would be, no matter what, I'm always gonna love you. So that's one. Even if I teach somebody to walk away, somebody's insulted you, somebody's tried to pick your pocket. Walk away with respect and deference, leave a good taste in their mouth, even if they left a bad taste in yours. So high anchoring you, Extreme anchor on me. I may well never speak to you again. If I do, I will probably tell you what offended me and why, and then you got a shot at fixing it. And if you choose not to fix it, best indicator of future behaviors, past behavior. What if somebody made an honest mistake, they didn't know any better? If I let you know and you go, okay, okay. Oh, I'm sorry. All right, all right. We'll do it again. Cool. We're cool. We're gonna move forward. If I let you know and you do it again, then you have your answer. You've been ghosted.

[Podcast Host]

You're ghosted. That's probably a good transition. There's a million transitions there. Because you talked about mediation, we talked about black swan. I'm going to get into those. But you ended with ghosted. I'm gonna use a little mir. Go right into ghosted. Talk to me about ghosting, because we use that in the email. But right now in relationships, a lot of people are being ghosted. They're dating. I'm in a dating scene. Like it's, it's a thing. People are ghosted. What do you do when someone ghosts you? What tactics do you provide those people?

[Chris Voss]

All right, you gotta, you gotta remember two things. First is a little complicated, but it's a great guideline if you can wrap your mind around it. The system you're employing is perfectly designed to give you the outcome you've obtained.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Voss]

So if you're being ghosted, your communication with that person probably is causing them to ghost you. Now, nobody ghosts you if they feel they're making progress. So whatever I was doing before, it made them not feel like they were making progress. You stay in communications if they're doing you good, if you're getting to where you want to go. Nobody ghosts you if you get, if you're taking them where they want to go.

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Chris Voss]

So then, now you got to put a little analysis into this. Am I just, am I the wrong person?

[Podcast Host]

How do you find that out?

[Chris Voss]

Well, you go back over the conversations. There could be a mismatch in values. If you're the wrong person, doesn't mean you're a bad person, just means you're a bad match for them. Good point. And they're a bad match for you. Yeah. So they could be eminently desirable. But something's wrong here. Now, you know, significant other, a candidate for being a significant other is not going to ghost you if they sense of what the two of you want out of this interaction, out of life, are the same. You know, maybe you're looking for long term relationship. They're looking to do nothing but party. Or vice versa.

[Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Chris Voss]

Or maybe what's beneath the surface doesn't match and they know that and this is coming to an end. You know, you may. You know, there are a lot of people that they have a glittery life and consequently are deeply in debt.

[Co-host Jason]

Sure.

[Chris Voss]

Or they've got a passion for things you don't have a passion for. They're gonna ghost you because they're not getting the dopamine hit off of you that they want. They're driven by or vice versa. Maybe you're into, and maybe what you want is a thrilling dopamine existence. And they're not into that. So there's a mismatch. So just think about why there's a mismatch. I had a very close friend of mine a long time ago. And this is like four or five relationships back.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Voss]

I'm lamenting the loss of a relationship. And he says, you know, it's been my experience and he was a wise dude, that relationships break up for a reason. And so even if you get back to it successfully, it's going to have a bad end. And I really thought about that because at the time I really missed this girl.

[Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Chris Voss]

And I blame myself for the damage. But then as I was thinking about it, I thought, well, the damage was created because there was a mismatch between us. So, you know, just, just a hard, a hard look at how you got to being ghosted. Now, if you want to reengage, then the oriented question.

[Podcast Host]

Here we go.

[Chris Voss]

Have you given up on. And then whatever it is, our relationship, our future dating, it could be, have you given up on anything? It could be a business deal, which is a relationship is, you know, it's, it's business deals are relationships. A little bit of dating. Sure. You want to have a relationship for a while of trust. Now they're going to answer and what if they don't? Then if they, if they don't answer, the answer is yes.

[Podcast Host]

So if they don't answer, then you've been ghosted.

[Chris Voss]

If you get silence and the answer is yes, they have given up.

[Podcast Host]

You got your answer.

[Chris Voss]

You got your answer without getting an answer effectively.

[Co-host Jason]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Podcast Host]

Okay, that's ghosting and dating you already. We talked a little bit about mediation. I wrote a book on love and money divorce. Of course, the hot topic prenups are a real thing. Lawsuits now are becoming much more prevalent. There are studies just saying lawsuits are increasing. So I'm curious when it comes. Lawyers are getting good at Getting paid. When. If my. Any of my listeners here are maybe negotiating a prenup because they're getting married or they're going through a divorce or they're in mediation, what type of negotiation strategies, tactics, advice would you give them?

[Chris Voss]

Well, that gets us back to the, the accusations audit that you mentioned before.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, yes.

[Chris Voss]

Now, if, if you're entering in a serious relationship, the earlier you bring up the idea that you want to prenuptial, the better.

[Podcast Host]

Okay?

[Chris Voss]

Because the person on the other side being sufficiently warned, that's what all anybody wants. I mean, if you want a prenup, you know, all along you want a prenup, the kind thing to do is to mention it earlier. And people appreciate that. Like I'm in a committed relationship now. Not. Not. Wasn't thinking of prenup. But the, the one thing that could be. Could be a deal breaker. You know, you bring up your deal breakers early. I remember saying to her right up front, not interested in kids, just not. And she. Wonderful girl. And there have been relationships in the past where I, you know, I gave the, you know, the guy's nonsensical answer. Well, with the right. Under the right circumstances.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

No, those circumstances don't exist. That's deception by omission. And I tried that a couple times, and then it became an issue. And I'm like, you know what? I know this is the case. I'm going to tell her right up front and she's always appreciated and respected that. It's come up occasionally since. But I'm in a position of honesty saying, like, look, I told you up front, you know, this was kind of understood. I never said under the right circumstances. I changed my mind. None of that nonsense. Same with a prenup. You're scared of saying it because up front, because you think it's going to be a deal breaker. You do on the other side, other person a favor, they're going to appreciate it. Maybe they have hope, but they won't go. They will not have proceeded so far into the relationship then to get caught off guard. Like the day before the wedding, people are so scared to bring up bad news. All right, let's say you didn't do this. Now you're in a. Now you're in a serious relationship. You're contemplating marriage. Got to have a prenup. Accusations audit is saying out loud right up front what you know, they're going to think, call out the elephant in the room, don't deny it. Call it out. What's the other person going to think? If all of a sudden you want to bring a paprine up, they're going to think that you're planning on getting divorced. The only reason why you want to do this is because you don't think this is going to work out, or you don't think the relationship. I mean, go ahead and say out loud the eminently predictable things that the other person is going to say. They're going to feel respected for that.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting. So you think about the things that they're going to say, and you sufficiently warn them by saying those things before they say it.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host]

Telling them in advance.

[Chris Voss]

Don't pull your punches. Like, if you think they're gonna. If you're afraid they're gonna hate you.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

Say you're gonna hate me. If you're afraid in your gut, if your fear centers, your gut instinct tells you it's going to be heartbreaking, say it. This is probably going to break your heart. Human beings are amazingly resilient. If sufficiently warned, and if your gut is telling you that it's going to be heartbreaking and you say you're not going to be comfortable with this, you pulled your punch, and that's not good. You got to go all in and say, look. And if it's not heartbreaking to them, it's not going to make it worse. That's the crazy thing about the prediction of negative emotions. It's actually an inoculation if you go overboard. So we always coach people. Don't pull your punches. Say it as concisely and as negatively as you possibly can. You're going to think I'm a despicable person for bringing this up. And if you do it really well, your bad news is going to be a relief, which is the crazy thing about that.

[Podcast Host]

Like, that's kind of backwards right there.

[Chris Voss]

It is like if you, if, if you get ready to lay this on, you know. All right, so confining it to a heterosexual relationship, a man talking to a female, realizing that that leaves a significant number of people out. But we're all human beings.

[Podcast Host]

Sure, sure.

[Chris Voss]

So we all react pretty much the same. If you say to her, you're gonna. You're gonna think I'm a despicable human being for waiting to. Not to bring this up. What's she gonna think?

[Podcast Host]

You cheated you. You. You got an issue.

[Co-host Jason]

You got a kid married.

[Podcast Host]

You're married.

[Chris Voss]

You got one wife.

[Podcast Host]

I'm thinking terrible.

[Co-host Jason]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

Terrible things.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

She gonna go there now. You can't let her linger there for long. About the period of time of three seconds, people brace themselves. Ten seconds turns bracing into torture. So about three seconds and you say I gotta have a prenup. And they're gonna be like, oh God.

[Podcast Host]

That's the relief.

[Chris Voss]

I thought you were gonna tell me you were married.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Chris Voss]

It's. I know it sounds manipulative, but it's a way to tell the truth. And if you help somebody feel less pain by telling them the truth, you're.

[Podcast Host]

Doing them a service, I think.

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[Podcast Host]

I always find it interesting to hear the things you tell us that we can do in our professional personal lives. But understand the derivative of it in your 150 plus hostage negotiation settings. Can you give me an example of when you use something like sufficiently warned or accusation audit in those examples specifically? Because it's always interesting to hear.

[Chris Voss]

Well, I was using it more with. In kidnapping negotiations, you're always. It always goes through the family. And so the real negotiation was collaboration with the family and a kidnapping negotiation. By the time I show up at the family's door, kidnapping has been in play for at least 12 hours, if not two or three days.

[Podcast Host]

Sorry, I'm a little confused. A family is kidnapping someone.

[Chris Voss]

I'm sorry, you get kidnapped.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Voss]

I'm gonna go plug into your family.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Voss]

So I gotta show up at your family's door.

[Podcast Host]

Got it.

[Chris Voss]

Cause the bad guy's gonna call your family. The bad guy's gonna take your phone, gonna ask you what the passcode is you're gonna open up the phone and they're gonna type in three letters into your address book.

[Podcast Host]

M O, M, D, A M. Yep.

[Chris Voss]

And so they're gonna be calling your family in short order. So I gotta show up at mom's house first, Dad's house first, get their collaboration. And if the bad guys haven't already called, the chances of them calling right after I show up are very high. So I gotta get mom and Dad's cooperation as quick as possible.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Chris Voss]

So the way I do that is I've done it enough times. I know how they feel. They feel scared, angry, outraged, frightened, alone. And having never met me as a representative of the US government, they blame me.

[Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Chris Voss]

So when I step in the door, I say, I know you're scared. I know you feel angry. I know you feel alone. I know you feel abandoned by the United States government. And I know that as the first rep of the United States government, you see, you blame me. And pretty much they're ready to rock on the spot.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Chris Voss]

Because I have cleaned out all the negativity or at least diminished it to the point where they're starting to get level. And suddenly this dude knows what the hell's going on. If you understand me that well, the chances of you understanding this situation are very high. And then we're off to the races.

[Podcast Host]

And that's a perfect example of like you're providing relief with doing yourself a service, them a service and their child of service. Because it's going to help the process. It makes perfect sense. Black Swan. Right. So this is consulting group. This is kind of, this is the foundation of your brand. Black Swan.

[Chris Voss]

So it's a motorcycle gang, doesn't it we. Motorcycle gang or ballerina?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I just think of a black swan. So then I started looking into it and I say, I was like, what's the, what's the derivative of this? And my understanding, it's named after the idea that people once believed that all swans were white until they discovered a black swan in Australia. Showing people that one, that an unknown fact can change people's assumptions. Right. That's the idea behind it. I did a little homework right? Now my question about this is not bad for being at a bills game till 11 in a flight at 6am The Black Swan effect, I think. And the ideas that you bring to the table are really interesting. But how do these things come to fruition if you're dealing with someone who's just extremely tight lipped they won't talk. They give you one word answers. How do you negotiate? How do you work with someone like that? How do you bring an unknown fact to turn, overturn an assumption if someone isn't willing to disclose anything or they're just being so reserved with their words.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, there's. There's only two reasons why they're reserved. They've been betrayed, they don't trust you, and they haven't been listened to.

[Podcast Host]

You don't talk to me. And that could be in the past though, right? Yeah. So it might even be an issue I've had with someone else, but I'm bringing it to our table. Right. Got it.

[Co-host Jason]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

And which is always going to be the case.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Voss]

There's Jim Camp called it baggage. Everybody comes to the table with baggage. First time we've crossed paths. If they're more than five years old, they got baggage that they know about. If they're under five, they got baggage. They just don't know what it is.

[Podcast Host]

They just don't know yet.

[Chris Voss]

So everybody's got baggage. There's no way around that. So I'm going to show my understanding of that from the very beginning. If they're tight lipped because you talk, if it does you any good. So you've been betrayed in a plastic or you're used to people not listening. That's why those are the only reasons why you're being tight lipped. You'll talk to me if I listen, and you can trust me.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Chris Voss]

So if you're tight lipped, I know that's what you're walking into the table with. And so we were talking a little bit about earlier about curiosity. Yeah. Curiosity is an irresistible force. So no matter how tight lipped you.

[Podcast Host]

Are.

[Chris Voss]

If I'm deeply curious, you're gonna open up. And I love proving that to people. A year, year and a half ago, interviewing a candidate for head of marketing for my company inside of five minutes, I know we're not hiring this guy. And it's something really wacky here.

[Podcast Host]

How'd you know real quick that you weren't gonna hire him in five minutes?

[Chris Voss]

Because what I sensed was really wacky. Okay, so what was really wacky was one of the pivotal moments in his life occurred over a Ouija board in a seance in his ex girlfriend's mom's haunted house that mom still lives in. And he threw this out as if he was talking about the haunted house. Just like, yeah, she lived on the, on the western shore of the Chesapeake Bay. Really Matter of factly, like, it was a little bit unusual, but not a lot unusual, you know, like some somebody lives western shore of the Chesapeake Bay. Is this really cool place or, you know, you know, somewhere on Long Island. Yeah. You know, she was on a house on the water, Long Island Sound. I'm like, if that rolls that casually off your lips where it's okay to be sands in a haunted house. And it would be like, it's a greenhouse with purple shutters. Different, but not really wacky. Yeah, you ain't working for me.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Quick five minutes. You figured it out.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, but I got that, Adam, because.

[Podcast Host]

I was curious, interesting. Okay?

[Chris Voss]

Like, and no matter who you are, I'm gonna find out about you and your curiosity. So I met another conversation and a very smart, very capable woman who's pretty tight lipped. She's like, I just. How'd you get that out of him? I just, you know, I just, I'm not buying that you can get that out of stuff that easily. So I think to myself, all right, I'm just going to be really curious about you. And immigrant family, entrepreneurial, people that have overcome adversity. Her lineage, really, really cool lineage. So right away, I know there's something special about her. Just be just from talking to her and her track record. And so I, I threw out like, you know, so, you know, your dad, you know, what he do before he came to the United States. She's like, yeah, I really don't know what he did. I don't remember. Not long after that, I uncover her, her father's total history, which was fascinating. This 10 minutes earlier, she said she didn't remember because she doesn't want to talk to somebody who's not going to listen or who's not actually interested. And I know that if I'm actually. And I'm really curious, and so I'm responding. Everything you tell me about your background, I'm delighted to hear. I'm like, wow, wow, you're going to open up. I don't care who you are. So the person you were talking about before, who's tight lipped, they're just tired of being ignored. You know, I start telling you about my background only for you to interrupt with a story of your own. And while I'm halfway through my story, I tell you something that I did as a kid, and you go, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you mean. Same thing happened to me. You're tired of that nonsense, which is the hijacking of conversations. You sit around a table and you hear people talking I don't tell a story about my past because I want to tell you my story. I tell it because I know that you're going to interrupt me with your.

[Podcast Host]

Own story so many steps ahead.

[Chris Voss]

And I actually want to hear that story.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Chris Voss]

So the minute you interrupt, I know this interruption, or this hijacking, some people call it story stealing. It's such a problem. It's a problem because it's irresistible. So I want you to bond with me because when I trigger that moment in you, I'm going to listen. I'm going to talk with you about how it was, about what it meant to you. I'm going to be deeply curious. And this is what people completely misunderstand about common ground. When you are sharing common ground, you feel like you're bonding with the other side. Most of the time, the other side feels interrupted. Hell, I just started talking about what happened to me when I was a kid when you jumped in and said, oh, yeah, same thing happened to me.

[Podcast Host]

And you're irritated.

[Chris Voss]

I was annoying, Interrupted, annoying. So since I know it's gonna happen, I'll eventually probably get the. When you've got your story out, that's when you're curious about me. And you won't be curious about me till you fully told me your story. It's a sequencing issue. So if we get into personal background, I'll know you're gonna jump in and completely interrupt whatever I have to say because you're dying to tell me, so I might as well let you tell me. And you ain't gonna listen to me until you got it out of here. So it's just a sequencing issue.

[Podcast Host]

Hmm. So when you were negotiating. I always love the derivative. When you're negotiating against the bad guys and you're trying to build a bond with them so that you can get what you want out of the deal, you'll use this tactic to actually connect with them.

[Chris Voss]

Well, I won't share anything about myself. I'll know that if I'm just deeply curious about them, it's just they're gonna open up. They're gonna open up.

[Podcast Host]

How do you deal? I started this question with talking that are tight lipped. Let's go to the opposite. And we're kind of on that pathway of people that are telling you their story. Let's go into those who are control freaks and or even touch the form of narcissism. They're narcissists.

[Co-host Jason]

Okay.

[Podcast Host]

I've dealt with narcissists. They're extremely challenging individuals to deal with. How do you negotiate with a narcissist who never wants to come to the table and negotiate? It's just not in their blood. It's not in what they know. What do you do?

[Chris Voss]

Back to what we talked about at the very beginning, walk it away. No deal is better than a bad deal. And a bad deal usually costs five times as much as a good deal would. So you got to start running the numbers and then you got to have faith in the universe and upon a fact, the universe going to come through for you. That's why people don't walk away from bad relationships, bad deals, because they see nothing but an empty void on the other side. And that empty void is horrifying. So they'll stay in a bad deal. They're the type of person, they call them monkeys. They go from one vine to the next, one relationship to the next, because they're horrified at being outside of a relationship. Our business people, especially real estate agents, are famous for this. But they'll keep trying to woo a buyer that's never going to buy, or they'll keep trying to woo a seller that's never going to sign a contract with them because they see nothing but darkness, emptiness on the other side. In point of fact, and this is really hard when you're first starting out, the people with the bad deals are blocking the people with the good deals. The bad relationships are blocking you from the people that are great relationships. And there's not much other than the experience of time that'll really drill that into your bones.

[Podcast Host]

You guys know that I just got my place in New York City.

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[Podcast Host]

You gave us a good tip about ghosting and of something you can say to get your answer. Without even getting an answer. Do you have a tactic that you can use in a situation like this to know when it's time to walk away? Because no deal can be better than deal.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, if they're totally self centered, I'm walking away early. I mean we really, really, really teach.

[Podcast Host]

People but what do we do? Like us, you know, to do that. Like how do I, how does someone listening to this, like when they're negotiating, how do they know to identify self centered? How do they know when it's. I think the hardest issue common individuals have, myself included, is when do you walk away? Like what is the straw? What's the information? How do I see it? You could see it in two seconds. It might take me two years.

[Chris Voss]

First of all, as soon as you start to recognize that it's there. A friend of mine, Joe Polish, Joe's great guy, I love him. Genius network, he says it's not the red flags, it's the yellow flags that you ignored. So look at the interaction with this person, look at past interactions and say stuff to yourself like what are the yellow flags that I ignored that I.

[Podcast Host]

That I hoped.

[Chris Voss]

Would be okay, but in my gut I knew it just felt wrong. So that the gut is an incredible supercomputer and in your head the more hope based decisions you make, they fail and the fear based decisions you make, they fail. So if you take hope and fear out, then rely on your gut. Here's how powerful your gut is. What's called the biology belief. The author said your conscious mind can process 40 bits of information per second. If you're a computer guy, if you write code, you know what a bit is?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

Think of it as a single syllable. A yes or A no, a one or a zero. A bit simple, 40 per second. Subconscious mind which feeds your gut Per second is 20 million.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Chris Voss]

500,000 to 1 ratio.

[Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Chris Voss]

Which is why simply training yourself to be able to know the difference between your gut or the hope Fear based centers up here. The more you work on listening to your gut and sometimes I'll say to myself, I'll actually say, what's my gut telling me? Once you start listening to your gut, a supercomputer that works that fast is going to be pretty accurate.

[Podcast Host]

500,000 to 1. You can't deny those numbers. We love to talk numbers. On this podcast, you Talked a little bit about different emotions between a man and women. But also the fact that all humans have emotions. We're all humans. Do you ever. When you're reading situations, negotiating, are you telling yourself what emotion means? What? I've heard things like, I don't know if there's truth to it, but I've heard like rage, like when someone's raging, it's actual fear. Like is there translation of emotion to what it actually means? And do you read into that?

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. I'm always asking myself for what are the contributing factors? Rage, fear would be part of that. Highly threatened anger is a result of something. Rage is an intense form of anger, an injury of some sort.

[Podcast Host]

For anger, is your truth, Is that just a saying or is that reality in your experience?

[Chris Voss]

Like if somebody's angry, are they gonna tell me the truth? Is that it?

[Podcast Host]

Or like if someone gets. Suppose I got angry at you and you could see that I'm angry and I'm speaking whatever I'm speaking with anger, it's my truth, might not be the reality, but my emotion of anger is my truth.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. If it, if it's genuine, if it's genuine anger. There's a lot of people that understand anger is a great way to manipulate others. And so there'll be a lot of fake anger because short term it tends to be very powerful way to get your what you want. It's massively destructive long term.

[Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Voss]

And that's why typically people that are the great negotiators don't use anger. And Donald Trump doesn't use anger. You sit you there, you sit down with them one on one. You don't have any evidence of people storming out of the room room when they sat down on a one on one. Now you could say, ah. What about that argument with Zeleski?

[Podcast Host]

I was just gonna say that first.

[Chris Voss]

Of all, there's a fair amount of rock fighting going on in front of that. And secondly, they had people in a room that are trying to pour gasoline on whatever embers were there.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. Do you think that was intentional? Like when he had the team kind of making fun of what he was wearing or kind of throwing jabs him. Do you think that was an intentional negotiation plan play on his part?

[Chris Voss]

No.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. No. Interesting.

[Chris Voss]

I think people on his team already knew that he was ticked. So they're expressing stuff they knew that bothered him.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Chris Voss]

Now the media people that were there.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

Are they doing their best to pour gasoline on fire? Absolutely.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, of course.

[Chris Voss]

So that was intentional on immediate people's Parts they, you know, they, they're like a couple people got upset with each other in the schoolyard. It's a knucklehead to stand around going. You could take. You believe what he just said to you?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Voss]

I mean, the media's job is to be instigators.

[Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Chris Voss]

So they sense anything at all. They're going to pour gasoline on the flame and if something doesn't light, they'll probably throw a match on top of it just to make it light. But getting back to Trump, Zelensky, they cut the deal at the Pope's funeral. And there are pictures of the two of them talking one on one, which surprised the vast majority of the media, who's not really paying attention to who Trump really is. Holy cow. They had this dust up in the Oval Office and here Donald Trump is talking to a one on one. They look like they're having a great conversation. How could that be? And then a couple of days later, the rare minerals deal is signed between the US And Ukraine. So publicly, if you start something with him, he's going to fire back. Of all the real dust ups that I've seen the other side started.

[Podcast Host]

If you, I got two segments I want to hit before you go because their time's limited. One is negotiating pay towards end year and going through your performance reviews. That's for my listeners. But one added on to this one is if you were negotiating with Donald Trump or a higher politician of his, let's just say like negotiation.

[Chris Voss]

I don't like calling him a politician.

[Co-host Jason]

Okay.

[Chris Voss]

Politicians is not a term of admiration from my part.

[Podcast Host]

Okay, okay, okay. Let's say you're negotiating with President Trump. So I don't want to bring in like other people. I just want to bring in only him. What are based on things that you have seen from him, what are strategies that you would use to negotiate with him? Like two of arguably the best negotiators you know in the United States, you're going with Donald Trump, like what are things that you're thinking about in doing if you're trying to negotiate with him?

[Chris Voss]

I would check and see what he's actually said, not what has been reported to me that he said.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Chris Voss]

I'd make sure I knew what he actually said. And this is the case across the world in any negotiation. One of the cases I worked on, the Philippines, what the bad guy actually said and what was reported he said were two vastly different things.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting. So that happens a lot even in these hostage situations.

[Chris Voss]

So you got to find out what the other side actually said, and then I'm gonna make some predictions on how they see things. I would make some predictions on how he sees things and then I would want to have a direct in person conversation. He doesn't like dealing with through intermediaries and nobody should because rarely do your intermediaries relate to you accurately what was actually said.

[Podcast Host]

That's why like in the movies when there's hostage situations, the negotiator gets on. It's always like, like put me. We need to be direct. You need to be talking to the direct person. Okay, let's get into. I could talk to you for literally the whole entire day and I know you got limited time, but right now year end is coming up, right? A lot of our listeners here going into their bosses and they're trying to get their year end reviews, their, their strong performances, the big raises, they get nervous, they don't know what to do. What are some ways that you would advise them to go to the table when it comes to negotiating an annual review, a potential increase in salary, et cetera?

[Chris Voss]

Two things. First of all, make sure that you can show that you were a bargain. So at a bare minimum, he's not going to resent the negotiation going in because he got a good deal on you. Now secondly, then you want to project that out as to how you're going to be even more of a bargain in the future. You know, I recently did a salary negotiation course on live online. Hadn't done it in several years. And two, three years ago I focused on, yeah, how do you get more money? And this time I got a lot more people working for me. And I remember when I sat down to construct this, I thought what would I want my people to do? So I'd be happy to pay them more. And a lot of that is even if you were bargaining for the past year, what's coming at me as a boss, I need a collaborative person that's aware that I got to get a return on investment. And if you're even aware of that, that makes you smarter than every one of your colleagues.

[Podcast Host]

That's so true.

[Chris Voss]

Because an employee walks in like I was a great bargain and I outworked everybody. It's very self centered and you're saying the same thing everybody else is saying. But the minute you begin to understand that you need to be continuing return on investment and how now you're solving a whole bunch of problems for your boss. Some, some really enlightened short term conversations that I've been working on my people with on any given day, I want you to be aware of how you're moving the needle. Most people are oblivious of that. Now that's not easy.

[Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Chris Voss]

But an employee that understands how they're moving the needle is ten times more valuable than somebody who's completely oblivious to their actions impact on a company. If you're aware of how you're moving the needle, I'm already looking at you as to promote.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

You're immediately more valuable to me. And so year in.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Chris Voss]

Okay. I absolutely want to be able to show, first of all, why should I pay you more money for the same amount of work?

[Podcast Host]

Right.

[Chris Voss]

Well, the only reason is if you were bargained to start with.

[Podcast Host]

Ah, full circle.

[Chris Voss]

So if you were bargaining to start with, and I probably got a deal on you last year. Yeah. And I could probably still afford to pay you more because that's not going to push me into the red. You're still me and you, you're still in a black.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting.

[Chris Voss]

So if you're a bargain to start with. All right, now I'm open to the conversation.

[Podcast Host]

Okay. I got it.

[Chris Voss]

Now if you. And then, but then if you, if we're talking about the future and you're aware of your impact, then the chances of me teaching you to how to have a greater impact make you worth the investment.

[Podcast Host]

Interesting. All right, there you go. If you're back home getting ready for your year end review, that was a textbook masterclass of what to do. Let's do this with your trading secrets. We got to wrap with your trading secret. So it's special to your experience. Can't learn it from a professor, can only learn from you. Well, you are a professor, so it's the Chris Voss trading secret. I would love if the trading secret was around some of the biggest mistakes that you see people make in negotiations. Biggest. No nos. But whatever trading secret you want to leave us with will work.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah. Just be willing to articulate what your gut's telling you the other person is thinking and think about the future. And just before I walked in the door, a gentleman was telling me this great negotiation he had, leaving one job, going to the next. And he wanted to preserve the relationship with the previous employer. And he said, I got some stuff I'm afraid to talk to you about. And I'm afraid that when I tell you this, in the future we won't be friends. And now they have a continuing and ongoing relationship where he's leaving his old job. His old employer was so impressed with the emotional intelligence of that approach when they Found out he was leaving, instantly realized this is a relationship's gonna be valuable for the future. Anybody this smart to anticipate the negative impact and focus on a long term relationship, you know, the guts, you know, whether the boss realized it or not consciously, but the guts, saying this person with this much emotional intelligence is somebody I want to have in my business and professional life for as long as possible because they're always bringing me good stuff.

[Podcast Host]

I love it. I love it. And that's part of the conversations we talked earlier with accusation, audit and even relationships coming to the forefront from the onset. So, Chris, I could talk to you all day. Unfortunately, we got a wrap. That was an unbelievable episode for everyone. Stay tuned to the recap. We're going to go over some more tricks in trade from Chris Voss, all from his book. He's got some magic wand phrases. I'll give you those too. So stay tuned to the recap. But Chris, where can everyone find everything you have going on?

[Chris Voss]

All right, so black swanltd.com b l a c k s w-a n ltd.com is a website. Now, if it's your first time there, you're going to get an invitation to join the Black Swan negotiation community, which is free. It's the best place to practice your skills. You join a community that's free, you can start preparing to come to our summit in Dallas in the spring, which is a big ticket item now, right now, the return on investment might be good enough for you so that you'll drop the 4000 and change to be with us for two days. If that's too much to swallow right now, and for some people it is, join the community. Start improving your skills. Get yourself to the point where $4,000 is nothing compared to the amount of money you're making by making better deals.

[Podcast Host]

I love it.

[Chris Voss]

So we're gonna bring you along one way or the other.

[Podcast Host]

I love it. I love it. That's the best guy to learn from, too. Over 150 international hostage cases negotiated by the former FBI hostage negotiator himself, Chris Voss. Chris, thank you so much for being on this episode. Sharing secrets.

[Chris Voss]

Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me back.

[Podcast Host]

It is so good to have you back. Ding, ding, ding.

[Co-host Jason]

We are closing in in the episode with Chris Voss. Of course, the curious Canadian and curiosity did come up in this episode with a whole lot of very important subjects to every single person listening and of course, to both you and I. David, you're back on the ones and twos. What'd you think about this episode.

[Co-host David]

I mean, Chris Voss, he, he's a top 10 episode all time for a reason. I wouldn't be surprised if this falls right into that category. I got a couple things that are just running through my mind when it comes to Chris Foss. One, if you ever wanted to kick me to the curb and you just did a Chris Voss and Jason Tardick series, I would be the number one listener. I would not be a hater to that. I would be a number one listener because I just think it's the ultimate takeaways, it's the ultimate advice. And I do see you in those interviews half in like a masterclass, half like on his level. Like you totally apply a lot of these things in your life. And then half is like a therapy session when you're, he's like talking about these things and you're reflecting on situations, you're like h. I could see how that could be true. But overall he's just the best. I usually listen to episodes when I'm taking notes on like 1.3, 1.5x. I listened to this so I could obtain everything in normal speed. He's probably one of the slower talkers that we have for a reason. And this episode went by the quickest. I couldn't believe that 53 minutes was up the fastest. Fastest that it was despite him talking slow and me watching a normal speed that goes to the captivity that he has that you guys have in your. In your interview process and your engagement and relationship to each other. So overall, as you could tell, huge, huge fan. I love everything about Chris Foss and what he brings to the table.

[Co-host Jason]

Yeah, my, it's so funny you said that because in the, in an interview like this, there are times that I'm asking questions for the listening audience and there's certainly times I'm asking questions for myself because I have an expert like Noah brother right in front of me. Something about his voice is just so calming. David, I little behind the scenes, which is why I love recaps. We filmed this the Monday after the Buffalo Bills beat the Baltimore Ravens with like you know, two seconds left. I was there so I was making like I made sure that I didn't over consume that night. But we didn't get home till like I don't know, one o' clock and probably didn't fall asleep till like 2:30 and I had a 6:00am flight and then my flight was delayed so I was late coming to the podcast studio and you don't want to be late for Chris Cross. And I Walked in, and I'm like, I am so sorry.

[Podcast Host]

He's like, hey.

[Co-host Jason]

And he had his, like, voice. He's like, congratulations on the bills. No worries. I have a time block here.

[Podcast Host]

I'm just happy to be here.

[Co-host Jason]

And, like, he did that. And, like, dude, I wish I had, like, you know how the golfers wear.

[Podcast Host]

The whoop where you can see their.

[Co-host Jason]

Beats per minute when they're standing over a punch putt in front of a crowd? I wish I had my whoop on, because I probably came into the studio at, like, 143 beats per minute. And the second he talked to me in that voice, and he knew what he was doing, right? He saw someone who, like, felt bad, who was running late, who was frantic, and he's like, I'm gonna calm this situation down. And instantly when he said that, everything in my body dropped. I was like, thank you. I'm really excited about this.

[Podcast Host]

And, like, it's amazing.

[Co-host Jason]

The guy's just amazing.

[Co-host David]

The ultimate. Like, it's not how you.

[Podcast Host]

You.

[Co-host David]

What you say, it's how you say it. Like, that's him in a nutshell. And it's.

[Co-host Jason]

Yeah, it's not the message. It's the messaging. Like, that's.

[Podcast Host]

That is.

[Co-host Jason]

And that's like, dude, that's life.

[Chris Voss]

Yeah, it is.

[Co-host Jason]

Like, it's not the message 95 of the time.

[Momentous Sponsor Voice]

It's true.

[Co-host Jason]

It's truly the delivery and the message.

[Co-host David]

And it's also like realizing that no matter what you're talking about, there is a correlation to something that is super relatable and usually very simple and usually, like, pretty black and white. Like, he takes his tactics that he's talked about, that he's done with FBI, with hostage negotiations, that he's talked about the world leaders doing. And then he's also relating it to, like, being ghosted on a date. He's also relating it to, like, relationships. He's also relating it to work advice and negotiations. And I just think, like, some of the things that we could get into, some of the quotes or stories or relatabilities that he has, like, everything from. From story hijacking to talking about getting ghosted to, you know, not identifying the yellow flags and. And always looking at the red flags and just a lot of those things. I mean, to me, it's incredible how he can speak and everyone listening, and that's why these episodes do so well. Is everyone listening? Is like, holy. I feel that. Or have I experienced that?

[Co-host Jason]

I think, to your point, he gives us the sophisticated reasoning and proof that like using your logic as opposed to just. Or your emotions will serve you well. If you think about like intuitive behavior or logical behavior, it makes sense that when you're mad at someone or you're frustrated at someone and you want to scream and yell, it makes sense that you're not going to get the best result when you do that.

[Podcast Host]

It's just not easy to do.

[Co-host Jason]

Makes a lot of sense. When someone's story hijacks that, if you give that a person the ability to story hijack, you're actually giving them information that you're listening and then they'll get your point across. But emotions tell us when someone's story hijacks, it's disrespectful, it's ego. I need to take back over. I need to fight power with power. And everything he says makes such a logical sense. And there's proof to it. It's just that as humans, we don't know how to oftentimes regulate the logic and emotions. And then the emotions take over. And as a result of that, what we're trying to achieve in human interaction doesn't happen.

[Co-host David]

100%. And did you at all feel while he was giving some of these examples, like, oh, shit, I do that. Or I'm sure you've. We've all. We all listen to this. You're like, oh, I've experienced that.

[Chris Voss]

That.

[Co-host David]

Right? I've experienced reading ghost be like, oh, I. I've done that because I did. And I can give you a couple examples in my world where I'm like, all right, this makes sense.

[Podcast Host]

I.

[Co-host Jason]

When he was talking about a lot of these stories, I've seen both sides of it, right? Like, I've seen where it's been done to me and where I've done to where I've done it as well. Tell me about your experience.

[Co-host David]

I just think, like, ghosting is such a good one too. And in my work world of work, like, I think about recruiting all the time. Like, I'm recruiting players to come play for my program. I have like, texts in my inbox right now. So the notifications. I was driving me crazy. And it's just this family that really wants to come play for me. And I, I know that we can't take them. And I'm just like, it's in my inbox. Because I, I don't. I'm trying to avoid the confrontation. Obviously, if I wanted the kid, I'd be doing everything, you know, to get him. I'd be, I'd be all over him. It's like, they're all like, he's just not that into you movie. It's like you will know right away if he's into it. But like, here I am ghosting this poor kid because I know that I'm gonna be able to deliver bad news, and here I am doing it. And then also, like, story hijacking. I'm, as we all know, sometimes a little animated, a little like, I don't want to say intense, but like, I'm energetic. And sometimes I feel like I definitely try and make sure that my experience gets across when a topic is being done. And maybe I need to have a little more patience and listen because I will listen after the fact. But this is one for me. And one thing that I've noticed that I've been doing lately that I'm not proud of because I think I get caught up in the business of life is I'm starting to notice a lot more when I'm talking to someone about a conversation in business and life and they take the time to be like, by the way, how's the family? How's everything? How's kids? How's mom and dad? And I'm like, good, great. And then like, conversation ends and I'm like, I didn't even ask the return that question or I didn't even think of it first. And I know how great that feels. And every time I'm like, oh my God, what a great person for asking me that. And I feel like I'm not doing that as much lately. And it's something that I want to get better at. So that was a really run on for me. But those are my experiences and how this really hit me.

[Co-host Jason]

Those are. I mean, those are great. And I think this is where like you touch into this therapy session, right? Because in therapy a lot of the stuff you learn is that to one of the first steps to like improving yourself and growing is recognizing, right? So to like be self aware, to recognize like, oh, I need to start returning those questions is like such a sign of growth, which is incredible for me. The one of the biggest ones, the two biggest ones that like, just stick with me. There's three actually. One is the curiosities I have noticed when someone, let's say someone hits me with something hard or someone attacks me or someone chirps me, but it's like below the belt. Like, it's not like a fun and games thing when I stop and pause and just get curious. When you said that, like, what did you mean by that? That like, what do you mean by that I had this actually happen this past summer. Someone I didn't expect said to me at a bar when they were drunk, your content lately has been cringe. And I was. Instead of like, just like, chirping back because, oh, I could have. I was just like, tell me. Like, I'm open to feedback.

[Podcast Host]

Tell me more.

[Co-host Jason]

Like, like, what is it? You know? And they're like, come on, Jason. I was like, no, I'm asking you. Like, you have a forum now. Like, tell me. And. And they're like, all your shirtless pictures. Like, we get it.

[Podcast Host]

We understand.

[Co-host Jason]

You look good. Like, like, just like, if you're in a relationship, it would be fine, but, like, you're single. It's like you're just thirsty with your shirt pictures off. And I'm like, okay, thank you. And weirdly enough, just in that response, I got a lot of information, right, that. That I don't need to get. But, like, I got a lot of information in that from a curiosity. And so I think asking questions allows.

[Podcast Host]

You to get clarity as to what.

[Co-host Jason]

Someone'S true, like, foundation is for saying things. Is it internal resentment? Is it external longing and what it actually means to you?

[Momentous Sponsor Voice]

So that's.

[Co-host Jason]

That's one. The second one is the intuition versus, like, your brain power, like, just trusting your intuition. I always feel like my intuition's bang on, and then I sometimes let that critical thinking override it, and almost always it's wrong. And then the last one was the. The. The position of dealing with a narcissist. You know, I couldn't agree more with him. I've been in that position. There is no reciprocated empathy. There is no negotiation. There is no being heard. You will constantly be caught in the web until you cut the web off and move in another direction. There is no other solution if you're actually dealing with an narcissist.

[Co-host David]

Yeah. And a lot of the things building off a couple of those, like the narcissist talk, he said the bad deals are blocking the people with the good deals. Same with relationships, right? The bad relationships are actually blocking the way the good relationships. It's just, you know, being able to recognize those things. And he was right. Like, a lot of people stay in relationships or business partners for so long because they're scared of the darkness, the loneliness. They're scared of, you know, the empty void that is looming, which is terrifying. So. So that's one. But like you said, trusting your gut, that's the. If there's a clip, if there's a takeaway. If there's a stat that blew my mind is that the conscious mind processes 40 bits of info per second, and your subconscious mind, which feeds your gut, processes 20 million. That's crazy info. Perspective. And it's just the old adage. It's like, trust your gut. It's like, I wish now. It's like, now hearing that, it's like, I will because I always want to. But it's like, oh, trust your gut. Like that. Like you have this brain that's just like a supercomputer. It's like, no, trust your brain. Put it to thought. Run the sequence. Like, it's like, no, it's like, trust your gut because that is your intuition and that is usually telling you. Like you said, it's.

[Co-host Jason]

It's.

[Co-host David]

The gut's the thing that recognizes the yellow flags, and your brain's the thing that talks you out of the yellow flags that makes you pretend they could believe it's okay because your brain's scared of computing all these other things. Your gut's like, no, come on now, let's figure this out. But that beat of info is insane.

[Podcast Host]

And I think you might have referenced.

[Co-host Jason]

It right there if you didn't. You reference it when you and I were preparing for this.

[Momentous Sponsor Voice]

This.

[Co-host Jason]

But it was his quote about, no deal is better than a bad deal. And that one just lands with me. And I want this. I want everyone to really think long and hard about this one. Because in sales and business development and in life, people will use time expirations to create urgency so that you make a decision. And so I would highly suggest, everyone, that if you feel like you're under the gun because someone's putting you under the gun to make any. Any form of decision, don't forget that quote that no deal is better than a bad deal. And usually those decisions you're making with the time against your back are positions that might put you in a spot to, like, make a decision that's a bad deal.

[Co-host David]

100 and the last kind of. My last like, takeaway from a topic you guys talked about was how he talked about how resilient human beings are if efficiently warned. And this goes back to, like, it's not what you say about how you say it. You.

[Chris Voss]

You're.

[Co-host David]

You're gonna hate me for this. This might break you heart. Like, you might think I'm a total asshole. And then three seconds, he's like, three seconds is the key. Seven seconds is like full panic sets in. But he's like, take a pause and then say what the bad news is. And then usually the bad news is like a relief because it's usually not that bad. Right. He used the example of, like, you might think I'm an asshole. You might hate me for this. And the person's like, oh, my God, you cheated on me. And maybe it's like, I forgot to take the garbage out. You know what I mean? It's like something that if you just said you forgot to take the jar, Joe, it's like, yeah, I forgot to take the jar. It's like, no, it's like, that's just a perfect example of that. So just those little tactics. I mean, it's so true. And he's. Ah, man, he's just so calming in the most, like, scary way for what he's capable of in terms of, like, who he negotiates with and all those things. But he makes it make perfect sense. And that was when I was like, wow, he's so right on that.

[Co-host Jason]

Yeah. There's so much. There's so much to what he said. That one was a really good one. I. I'll be honest with you.

[Podcast Host]

You.

[Co-host Jason]

That's what we do in the recap. I've. I've used that one before, knowing it was, like, actually a thing. And where I up was. I held too long. I was like, no, you're really gonna be upset. And it was like. And the person after was like, that was nothing. But you know what I'm upset about now? The torture you just put me through. I'm like, oh, yeah, and you.

[Co-host David]

And you probably did it over texting, and then you actually ghosted them by mistake for, like, three hours. And now it's like you triple down all the things, things we just learned and backfired. You're actually doing it right. You're actually just doing it really wrong.

[Co-host Jason]

Yeah, exactly. And then I do think, like, there's. And what he said is, there should be a warning label with all this, right?

[Co-host David]

Yeah.

[Co-host Jason]

The warning label is like, this should be used to put you and your position and your partners and your business and your life in a better spot. Not as forms of manipulation. I do think it's very careful or it's very important that, like, you treat this stuff carefully, especially the people that you're like, you know, working with this.

[Co-host David]

Stuff on 100%, you know, and then he gives the. The tactical advice of negotiations and.

[Podcast Host]

And.

[Co-host David]

And, you know, be aware of how you move the needle and ask how you can make an even bigger impact that leads to negotiations at this time. Of year for more money. All these things are great. You know, another episode building off Kaitlan Collins episode. You know, he touched a little bit on. On, you know, I wouldn't say politics, but I'd say behavior behind the scenes in. In. In negotiation tactics with world leaders. I just think the last two episodes, we've really elevated, I would say maybe some of our conversations, some of our content, some of our perspectives to. To maybe a wider range of listeners. It's really exciting. I think we'll always be at our core with, you know, some pop culture stuff. But, man, I. I gotta say, some of these episodes, they're way more stimulating. And that's no knock on the other guests, because I think some of the other guests are maybe more entertaining. But again, we're doing something. We're doing something here. Jason.

[Co-host Jason]

Yeah, we are doing something here. If you haven't, what I would tell you is go check out his books, Never Split the Difference, Empathy and Uncertainty.

[Podcast Host]

In Business, the Full Fee Agent and his podcast. Many more.

[Co-host Jason]

Go check out Chris Voss's stuff. And David, you hit the nail on the head. We are doing something here.

[Podcast Host]

We got some trending topics, some very.

[Co-host Jason]

Relevant topics, and some very stimulating guests on. I agree with you, you, Entertainment. Pop culture is still prevalent to this podcast, but I also think growing in the spaces that we're starting to touch on from all angles is important, and we're seeing that our listeners are very much enjoying it. So, you know, Kaitlan Collins to Chris Voss. We are next week taking a dip back into some light laughter, but also some really interesting business with Harry Jowsey. But I could tell you, as we continue to book our guests, we'll listen to your feedback in the comments. Give us 5 stars and let us know. But we will definitely keep in mind the success of both of these episodes. Kaitlan Collins and Chris Voss. So, David, anything before we wrap?

[Co-host David]

No, just picturing Chris Voss and Harry Jowsey in a room having, like, a negotiation where, like, there would be the funniest thing. Like, I almost need that as an episode. You would have him absolutely sweating.

[Chris Voss]

Oh, my God.

[Co-host Jason]

I would like. Oh, my God. Imagine if we could pick. We should do this. Like, we picked 10 of our guests to be in one room. Even if it was, like, Harry Jowsy.

[Podcast Host]

Caitlyn Collins, and Chris Voss.

[Co-host Jason]

Harry would start, like, hitting on Caitlyn. Chris would start, like, twisting them. But, like, Caitlyn would, like, bury Harry.

[Podcast Host]

Like, it would be great.

[Co-host David]

We should just do our own version of Like Traders, but trading secret style. Honestly, traders.

[Co-host Jason]

I think we're on to something here. There could be the wide range of guests we have had on From a Todd Graves 20 billion plus from chicken tenders to Chris Voss, Caitlyn Collins and now we got Harry Jowsing next week. So this has been a great episode. David, thank you for joining me in the recap. And thank you for tuning into another episode of Trading Secrets, one you couldn't afford to.

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[Chris Voss]

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