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Trading Secrets
286. Kathryn Hurley: Building Wags & Walks Nashville, Saving Thousands of Dogs & Turning Passion Into Purpose
00:53:06
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- [00:00]
A
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [01:14]
B
Welcome back to another episode of Trading Secrets. I am not reading the intro. I am just speaking from the heart in the gut. Today we have one of the most special guest of all Trading Secrets history. We have the one, the only Katherine Hurley. Born and raised in Plymouth, Michigan. Earned and found her grit get the grit. She's a Lions fan from working at Dairy King, the unbelievable best ice cream shop in Plymouth, Michigan owned by her father and since day one has just spent so many passionate about animal welfare. Whether it was rescuing worms on her driveway or dogs from Craigslist, she was doing it all. She graduated from Eastern Michigan. She then went to work in dog rescue. She then went to work in sports, commentating almost an Erin Andrews. We'll tell you about that. And now is the founder of Wags and Walks Nashville, living and residing in Nashville, Tennessee. She's so beautiful on the outside. Even a thousand more times more beautiful on the inside. Kathryn Hurley, it is an honor to have you on Trading Secrets.
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C
A pleasure to be here.
- [02:28]
B
Let's go now. We have a lot to get into today. For anyone listening. We got some big news that we're going to share today. That's going to be towards the end of the podcast. We're living in Nashville, a lot of action, so many moving parts. We'll talk a little bit about how we met. There's a ton of questions you guys submitted. But before we do that, we're going to one of the big focuses of today is going to be on animal welfare and of course your rescue out of Nashville. Before we get into that, take me back though. So you graduate from Eastern Michigan. And you're thinking about your career. Eyes are closed. What did it look like? What'd you think you were going to do?
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C
I knew in high school I was going to work in dog rescue. I met a pit bull and thought it was the coolest dog ever. And one thing led to the other, hearing the misconceptions about the breed. And the more that I educated myself, especially living in Detroit, there's a lot of animal abuse, a lot of animal neglect. I hyper fixated on it. And once I graduated, I got my first job in dog rescue in Pontiac, Michigan.
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B
Pontiac, Michigan. Okay, before we go into that, you touched on something I don't want to overlook and I don't want to forget about it. You mentioned Pitbull and you mentioned misconception. We have a pit bull.
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C
Yeah.
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B
Moose. Moose is. Was your pup. And now you brought Moose into our life. Teddy and Moose are brothers now. And I'm going to be honest, I didn't really know much when it comes to education and animal welfare before being with you. And I had a rescue growing up. I've had rescues in the past, always supported rescues, but I didn't know some of the ins and outs. Let's first talk about the misconception of pit bulls. Specifically, I think it's called the national temperament rating. Right.
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C
The American Temperament Society has equivalent to like a quarterback, a passer rating.
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B
Okay.
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C
So pit bulls have always scored incredibly high, often higher than a golden retriever, which is deemed America's sweetheart. And everyone trusts them with their kids. So once I learned that. And when you look at all the numbers too. So the average golden retriever, German shepherd, there's 6 to 800,000 of them get at any given point in the United States.
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B
Okay.
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C
There's two and a half to three and a half million pit bull type dogs.
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B
Wow.
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C
And that's also because Pitbull's not a breed. Yeah, it's a grouping of a lot of dogs that look similarly. So it's also next to impossible to just have a visual identification of a breed. Many people who work in animal welfare don't even get it right. There's lots of fun tests out there. We know about wisdom panels, DNA tests, where just from looking at a dog, you cannot ID it. So that alone leads to statistics being extremely off. But even when you do really have a pity and you're looking them at face value, a dog is a dog. Environment is so much more important than DNA. They can't have a lockjaw. That's one that I've heard over the years, but they're some of the most sweetest, well tempered, amazing family dogs. And back to being a Lions fan whenever there's an underdog, I think it just really did not sit well with me. The injustice of how people stereotype them and then that leads to euthanasia. So they're the most euthanized dog in America.
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B
And why is there a misconception? Why do always. Why do people think pit bulls scary? Especially if you're saying their temperament levels actually less than a golden retriever. They're one of the kindest DNA dogs in the world. I probably said that wrong, but why is there that that misconception?
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C
I think it's a lot of things, but one, when you go to the way that they're treated, when you go to some cities and you look at a golden retriever again or a doodle, they're not being put in scenarios where they're abused the way that pit bulls are abused. They're often chained up, they're often trained for dog fighting. People think that's because that's in their DNA. But because they're some of the most loyal, obedient dogs, it's unfortunately really easy to manipulate them and make them do things that they would never do on their own. So, yeah, they're also strong. Right. Like any big dog, there is more responsibility. But yeah, they're just inherently good dogs. And it's also really easy to make a sad story or look at the media. We know how biased they can be and how much influence they unfortunately have in scenarios. And pit bulls have always gotten the brunt end of that. Once the Michael Vick case bur broke, I think it was really hard for them to overcome those stories.
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B
Yeah, I'm the Michael Vic case. Disgusting. And I'm glad that they did overcome those because when you think about the two things we talk numbers on this podcast, you know that, but you're talking about how many quote unquote pits there are in the United States. So you have a larger volume. Therefore there's going to be potentially more stories, especially if they're in worse situations. And the second thing is think about little small dogs that have nibbed down a little bit or pushed you a little bit. Right. But some one other dog just has pure strength of 100x when they do that, it's going to create some kind of inflection point that you'll talk about as opposed to a little baby bite. So it makes perfect sense. Let's go into how you got involved with Wags and Walk. So you start volunteering in Pontiac, Michigan, and from there you decide, I'm going to make the move to la, Which I know living in a small town like Buffalo, Williams will shout out, leaving a small town is tough, but you make the leap of faith and you end up going to la. And why and how did you find Wags and Walks?
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C
Yeah, I actually found out about Wags and Walks when I was at a conference in Miami. It was very random. I actually thought I wanted to work for a rescue called Angel City Pit Bulls.
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B
Okay.
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C
And so I started volunteering for both. But then Leslie Brog, who's the founder of Wags and walks, she's the OG of all OGs. She had really convinced me by sharing. If you work for Angel City Pit Bulls, I love that you're passionate about this, but it's only going to attract. You're never going to be able to change somebody's mind. You're never gonna have a conversation where you are put in a position to educate somebody and change, change their minds about pities. We don't discriminate against size, age, breed. So she was like, come on board and you'll be able to change so many more lives when you adopt out more pities.
- [08:32]
B
It's beautiful. Shout out to Leslie Ann Wags and Walks. One thing I want to talk about, and this will be a theme of this episode, is going to be monetization and just the overall earnings of working in a place that you're so passionate about. And how do you continue to live a life that you can afford while also pursuing passion? So when you first started at Wags and Walks, how much were you making?
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C
Gosh, I think I was making $26,000, which in LA, even, you know, seven, eight years ago, was certainly not a lot to survive off of. But one thing Leslie also did was say, if you stick in this and you want this to be your career, I promise you'll be rewarded at some point. But we've got to make sure that the organization is stable and financially can grow in terms of bringing on more staff. And 11 years later, I'm the founder of a new branch. So she kept her word.
- [09:25]
B
Let's go. You're the founder of a new branch. It's in Nashville. You started that literally out of your basement and then do a storage unit. We'll get into how you started it and all the curiosities of foundation work and not for profit. And more about Wags and Walks Nashville before we do. I don't want to Miss that. You ended up leaving Wags and Walks. And one of the things that you always dreamed of being was a sports correspondent on the sidelines. You didn't care where you worked, so you ended up taking a shot at that career. But you're jumping into a career, especially at that. That time that's very male dominated. So talk to me and walk me through the idea of leaving Wags and Walks to pursue sports commentary. What it looked like and what you learned from it.
- [10:04]
C
Leaving Wags really was just financial. I knew that I wanted to stay involved with them and I was super young and thought, let's stem out and see if I can take a little shot at the sports side of things, in particular with football. I mean, you obviously know I have a great relationship with my dad. I grew up with a ton of guys in my family, had a great relationship. So I wasn't nervous working in environments that was predominantly men. It ended up being every stereotype that I really wish that it wasn't really from day one, there were some really lovely men in the workplace as well that advocated for me, but it was disheartening. I think you also know me well enough to know that I'm not scared to use my voice or stand up for myself. I ultimately left.
- [10:49]
B
How long were you there for?
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C
Eight months.
- [10:51]
B
Did you end up leaving? Did you get fired? How did you bring this to light? I think this is something that it's so important to speak to because like you said, it takes courage, it takes a voice, it takes power. Especially when you make a big move out to la, you decide to pursue your passion, and then you decide to also pursue career and financial endeavors, to try something new in a space that's really hard to do. There's a lot of uphill battles. What type of advice do you have for people that are trying to find that voice? And how long did it take you to bring that voice to light in the workspace?
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C
Honestly, I think I had my voice from day one. I think the way that I was raised was just to do what's right and listen to your gut and stand up for yourself. And honestly, that mixed with probably my youth of feeling very invigorated by living in LA and taking chances. And I've just always been pretty confident in who I was. So once I was confident in going back to Wags and that that would be a stable career path in terms of being able to make some more money. I packed my things up, I put my notice, and I was really proud of that.
- [11:54]
B
You should be Proud of that. All right. Intrigue, secrets. Of course, we talk some of the numbers. So when you make that move, you're going from 26,000 a year at Wags and Walks. And how much could you make in the space? Working in sports, commentating?
- [12:06]
C
I came in at 44,000.
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B
Okay.
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C
And I was 23 or 24.
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B
Okay, 23 or 24. You make the leap of faith, that leap doesn't work out. I also want to say at some point, I'm going to have to do like a live stream of you and I watching a football game, because you know more about football than I do and more. More than all my friends do. You beat me in fantasy this year. You know the statistics, you know the numbers, you know the people, you know the trades. It's unbelievable. Is there a chance maybe at some point you might take a shot at going back into that space?
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C
I think from you I've learned to never say never. But I also love it so much that it's separate from work for me in that way that it's an outlet of a hobby that I deeply enjoy. So never say never, but rescues where my heart will always be at.
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B
Okay, so then you go back to Wags and Walks. What position do you go back in at and tell me about what that looked like? And what, after eight months, how big of a change was there?
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C
The change coming back in was pretty significant. She had hired a few people. We had a really great fundraising year where we were able to grow the operational side. There are a lot of rules within nonprofit of how and when and why you can spend money. For example, if you have a grant, it's usually very specific in how you can spend that grant, I. E. Medical bills or building out your office space. And it's usually not salaries. But we had a big year.
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B
What is a big year back then?
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C
Probably 2 million.
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B
How much are you raising to have
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C
operational budget of 2 million in terms of salaries? The general rule of thumb is not spending more than 30% of your expenses on salaries.
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B
Okay.
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C
I was one of only a few, a handful of employees at that point. So of the 2 million, you can spend about 30% on salaries. And I came back in as a volunteer coordinator. I literally worked every job, though. I was a foster coordinator and adoptions counselor. But I really found my voice, my talents really worked out best in volunteer development, events and fundraising.
- [14:10]
B
Operational budget means how much for a non for profit to the dollar that you will spend on the impact. But that includes salaries, that includes all expenses, correct?
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C
Yeah. The good way. To think of it is if you have one person that donates a ton of money to you, but you're not doing anything with that money, then you shouldn't be hiring a massive staff. So the way that you can justify being able to spend more money on people is you're spending more money on the mission and your programs. So as the expenses go up, it's more accepted to be able to bring in more staff. And I think Leslie did a really good job of wanting to advocate for people that wanted to make this their career. I was always really supported in it, but I think anyone who works in animal welfare has probably been told, how are you going to pay your bills? Or is this really a career? Isn't this a volunteer job or a hobby like teachers? We talk about how teachers are so underpaid even though they're teaching our youth. So it's similar in nonprofit where if you care about this as a society and you want animal welfare to have a more stable outcome, especially for our dogs and our cats, then you should want people to want to do it. And the turnover is incredibly high in non profit but also animal welfare.
- [15:27]
B
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- [16:37]
C
I moved to Nashville in 2019.
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B
2019. That's okay. So I moved to Nashville in 2019 as well. Ironically enough, we now know, but we lived less than two miles away from each other. We lived in Nashville. Crazy. Never Ran into each other. Unbelievable. That is a wild world. So you go to Nashville and you got the idea that Wags and Walks exists in LA and they don't have any other foundation anywhere else. And you say, I'm going to create another chapter. When you create another chapter, why did you decide to do it with Wags and Walks as opposed to like just create your own chapter? And what are some of those things that any one of us might not know about what it's like to start your own not for profit chapter? Ground up.
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C
I hear all the time I want to start a dog rescue. How did you do it? And I, I half jokingly am like, do not do it. It is a ton of work. And I think my question to people is always think about where your time is going to be best served and if you're willing to make this your entire world and what your goals are. So are you better served being on a board, as a volunteer, as a foster? And I really had a lot of that road paved for me because of my experience in LA and the support of Leslie wanting me to start that second chapter. And it was still so boots on the ground in that you have to make all your own relationships with the shelters, the veterinarians, you have to build trust within the community. So that is already so overwhelming to have to do that. And then you think about the fundraising side of it and it's an uphill battle. So I would strongly encourage somebody to maybe look into starting a foundation or serving on a board or really getting to know what your goals would be in running a non profit. But yeah, it became really easy decision for me when I was going around to different shelters in the south and realizing how under supported they were by rescues. And that was very unfamiliar to me both from Detroit and la.
- [18:39]
B
Teddy was in one of these shelters and they are overcrowded and I went to these shelters and Teddy would have been euthanized if he wasn't taken within a week from that time period. What is one thing I also didn't know about how shelters are funded and then the fact that they have to like, okay, there's a misconception of kill shelters versus regular shelters or non kill shelters. Educate everyone on those differences and some of the big misconceptions that people might not know about government funding shelters and the role of a rescue with the shelter.
- [19:08]
C
So euthanasia rates are often dictated by area codes. So the south is incredibly overcrowded, underfunded and under resourced. So when you have your typical government shelter in Particular in the south, they are operating on pennies on the dollar for what they're able to provide for their dogs. It's also a math equation. So you know, if your average shelter has 125kennels and there's 200 plus dogs coming in every single week, those dogs are going to be euthanized. No one wants to euthanize a dog. No one gets into this line of work because they are excited to put a dog down that day. I think that they've been incredibly villainized. And WAGS has always tried to be an advocate for the perception and reputation of shelters and how we support them. So my job as a 501C3 rescue is to go to our government funded shelters, show up for them and create space for them to take in new dogs. So that sometimes literally comes down to just making room for a new dog to come in. But it's also their medical cases. They do not have the money to treat a dog who was hit by a car. Parvo seniors who need dentals, anything and everything above your basic vaccines in spayneuter is out of their reach. So we can go in. That's a huge part of our mission statement, is to take on major medical cases. Obviously stereotype breeds are going to be the first to be euthanized and then also mamas and puppies. There's so many unwanted litters and pregnant moms. So we go in, take as many dogs as we can on a weekly basis and bring them into our program.
- [20:41]
B
We just heard a story the other day, you told it to me about how there's this guy and warning for everyone. This is a tough story to hear, so you might want to fast forward if you have a soft, not soft heart and a sensitive eye right now. But this beautiful baby girl pit is almost paralyzed. I'll let you speak to where she is now. But I was like, how did this happen? How you could just beat an innocent puppy is. It's disgusting, it's grotesque, it's hard to put these things into words. But then these medical cases come up like this one, and I'm just curious, how do medical cases impact the financial health of a rescue organization? And how as a founder of WAGS and Walks, do you support these medical cases that aren't supported by shelters or the government?
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C
I think WAG supports it because we're very transparent with our community and our donors that when we are going out there and taking the dogs who truly need it the most, whether that is a dog like this who potentially needs a CT scan, which is well over $5,000, or a surgery for a broken leg. We tell the stories and we're very honest about that. On social media, we can do tons of before and afters, the write ups, posting vet bills, but in terms of the way it impacts the financial health of the organization, it goes back to, to raise money, you have to spend the money. And spending money on medical will always be so important to WAGs, knowing that it's a major pillar of our mission statement, saving medical dogs. So it's a burden in the way that it's a lot of money. This past January, we spent over $77,000 just on medical bills.
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B
Wow.
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C
Yeah, that was the most we've ever spent. But it's also showing that the impact is growing and we're doing what we're supposed to be doing.
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B
How many dogs have you saved to date?
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C
The national chapter?
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B
Yeah.
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C
Over 7,000.
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B
And how about WAGS as a whole?
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C
Shit's got to be over 16,000 by this point.
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B
That's unbelievable. Yeah, I always say, I don't always say it's a little morbid, but we joke around. We're talking about, like, what life looks like down the road and what our next life looks like. I'm like, the day Catherine passes, she is going to be met in heaven with 30,000, probably 300,000 puppies welcoming her at that point, which is, that's special. And it's everything you are. The medical cases too. What I find so fascinating, especially from a business business perspective, is private equity now has gobbled up a lot of the vet space. And they have these vets moving full speed, full time, charging as much as they possibly can. And the vets are doing their best job to say, no, we're going to charge what's right. And there's this interesting thing happening in the industry that's from a macro perspective. That's not for every single vet that's out there. That's me reading business cases about what's happening private equity with vets. One thing I have learned from you is that you will partner with the right vets. And when there are cases in which someone's only option is to euthanize their dog because of affordability and they're a good owner, they will actually pick up the phone and call you. And you guys can use part of the money that you've raised for this medical segment to actually help these people out. Walk me through one case of what that's looked like.
- [23:52]
C
Yeah, so WAGS for good started in order to Better support the community. At some point, we tap out how many dogs we can rescue, and we wanted to keep growing how many humans that needed help right here in the community. So we launch WAGS for Good, which also is a subsidy of our medical wing. So because what you just said, of all of the vets that are often charging a lot more money, we couldn't afford that, even with our rescue discount. So we now have an entire medical wing where we can do pretty much everything outside of emergency care. So on our website, we now have an application where people can apply for emergency grant funding if they cannot afford it. And also with low cost and free spay neuter. Spay neuter is the crux of animal welfare and how we get to the root of the problem. We often say we can't adopt our way out of this issue in the United States. So spay neuter is how you get to that. But, yeah. So now we have both grants, foundations that we apply for, and they say, hey, here's $1,000. I want you to spend this on free spay and neuter, or we want this on the grant relief program. We can use that directly towards that. And my favorite story is Blondie. That's how WAGS for Good really started. She was a German Shepherd. She was hit by a car right before Christmas, and her family took her to the vet. They were charged $8,000 for a leg amputation. They couldn't afford it. He offered $3,000 in cash, begged for a payment plan, asked family and friends for help, and was turned down and ultimately decided to surrender his dog to the hospital. And they called us. So I obviously also can't afford $8,000. So we picked Blondie up, did her amputation at the adoption center. It cost me roughly $800 to do that surgery. And the next day, the owner had actually seen her story on our social media. And he walked in and was like, sobbing. It was so sad. And was like, I can't imagine my baby girl losing her leg and her dad on the same day. And I know I, like, can finally now tell that story without crying, but we were like, we're in the business of getting dogs home. This dog has a home. And so we sent him to go pick her up from the foster home where she was recovering, and then told that story on social. And it had such a wonderful positive response from the community. We were like, why not make this a thing so people don't get put in the position where you're having a heartbreaking decision sitting in a waiting room and then you have to surrender your dog. The average person can't cough up eight grand and they shouldn't be judged because they can can't. So if we can alleviate that a little bit, we're trying our best.
- [26:31]
B
A quick plug with then education. The plug is that if you donate to wags, you can dictate where that money goes. And that money can go specifically to WAGS for good. So that you know that your money is being spent only on medical cases and situations like this, which I think is beautiful. The education component which I've learned is that you guys have created your own vet wing in the WAGS and walks in Nashville and then vets will volunteer their time. So a procedure that would be $8,000 even. I know your discount if you work with a vet. What type of discount do they give you guys?
- [27:04]
C
20, 25.
- [27:04]
B
25. Okay. So let's call it $6,000. They would have charged your non for Prof. Organization. You guys can do it at your hospital at cost. The vets will volunteer and that's why it's $800. But something like that, 800 versus 8, 000 at the vet. Give our listeners a couple vet best practices. You vets, you've seen a lot of poorly run vets. Give us some best practices. One or two.
- [27:29]
C
I'll give Dr. Josie a little shout out.
- [27:31]
B
Dr. Josie's been on the podcast. Let's go Dr. Josie.
- [27:35]
C
And we have so many wonderful vets that are on contract with wags, like you said, that donate their time or take a very low fee to do high volume spay neuter. I think my best advice is there isn't a blanket rule for you and your dog or your cat. There should be a vet that is going to get curious and ask questions and ultimately be able to treat them with a standard of care. But also tailoring that to you and your preferences and what they ultimately need versus I think that there's a lot of vets that they've seen a lot. So therefore they can go in with a little bit of their blinders on and just write a script and move on. And the same way we talk about in the human healthcare world, like you're gonna be your biggest advocate, you are your pet's advocate and ask questions and don't take no for an answer. And if you want that extra test, get that extra test list. Listen to your intuition.
- [28:29]
B
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- [30:17]
C
I think it's really gross. I think if you can spend that amount of money to clone your dog, knowing how many dogs are still dying every single day in shelters, it's really hard to think that if this is man's best friend and this is this creature that we domesticated to depend on us and we've now set up a system where they're discarded and dying every single day. And that is not more important to you? I have a hard time understanding that in any way, shape or form. Yeah, it's really disappointing.
- [30:51]
B
No. And this is day in and day out I'm educated on these topics cause I'll see them and I want to know your take on it. Not really having a take. And then you think about it. Right now as we are talking, there are shelters all over the country euthanizing beautiful, unbelievable, kind, sweet, loving pups because there's an overcrowding issue in the country which when we talk about buying a dog, sure people want to have the certain type of dog or Whatever it is that they are looking for, which is why they buy a dog. Dog, sure, whatever. But the biggest problem with doing that is you're supporting an organization, an industry that is adding to the issue, which is recreating, procreating, making more dogs in the United States available when every single second they're getting euthanized because we have an overcrowding issue.
- [31:43]
C
Yeah. I think if you think about a breeder and you think about that being their job is to procreate and sell dogs. When there's dogs dying every single day, that is not in the best interest of the dogs of the animal welfare in our country. So I tell people all the time, if you want a certain breed, that's fine. We're not here to judge that you want a French bulldog or a doodle or whatever it is. But you have to be willing to be patient and work with a rescue. Especially think about how many I've shown you on a day to day basis. I'm like, do you know anyone who wants a Frenchie? A doodle?
- [32:18]
B
They come in every day, every golden retrievers, everything. I can't. But every day when I hear a story, how the are these people leaving their dogs, you know what they'll do? They'll put them on leashes and then they'll just pin them up to her mailbox or employees mailbox. They'll put a bunch of babies in a cardboard box and put them at their front door. Thank God they at least have the empathy to do that as opposed to beat the dog like that piece of. Okay, I'm getting all fired up, but
- [32:43]
C
I think that people need to be able to walk through a shelter and see all the dogs that are getting euthanized that day before they go and buy a dog.
- [32:50]
B
Yeah.
- [32:51]
C
If you can't have patience and a little bit of empathy to realize that you will be saving a dog's life, I think we've gotten a little lost as a society.
- [33:00]
B
Yeah. And if I could deal with Teddy, trust me, you could have the patience for anything. That guy is crazy. We'll get into that story in a second. Before we do, you started Wags and Walks Nashville out of your basement. You then went to a storage unit. Where are you guys today? How many employees do you have today? What are 20, 26 goals look like
- [33:15]
C
we are going to celebrate our third year anniversary this summer in our adoption center and we have over 40 employees. We have animal care stuff. So all day long we've got people from 6am to 8pm taking care of the Dogs. The medical staff has grown exponentially, especially with all the services that we're offering to the community and everything from our, our wonderful social media team, the events team, Foster adoptions, volunteers. It's a whole wild business now at this point and it's something I'm really proud of. I didn't necessarily plan or expect a lot of it, which is why I think it grew as organically as it did.
- [33:52]
B
I think one of the biggest misconceptions I see is that when people ask you what you do, you're like, oh, I run a dog rescue. And the response is that's amazing, that's awesome. And I think that they, most people believe like you play with a few puppies and then you make sure that they find happy homes, which is what you do. But the scale at which you do it, the misconception is significant. You are managing 40 personalities every day. You're managing their performance plans, their performance improvement plans. You're managing culture, leadership, how to fundraise capital. Everything you're doing is out of a CEO, but it's under a non for profit. I remember a Harvard business case study that I read in business school and it was this whole argument of how, how people not for profit should be compensated. One of the arguments are you're there for supporting a mission, you shouldn't worry about compensation, you shouldn't be compensated well. And the other argument was, and I remember when I was in my twenties reading this, non for profits should be treated from a leadership perspective as a business. The CEOs should be compensated like CEOs of for profit. The reason that argument is in place is because they. The net difference between the impact you can create if you have good leadership in place versus poor leadership is so much more significant if you have the right people running it. And so I remember reading, I'm like, that makes so much sense. Why would you put a very low compensated individual in place to run an organization that can't get the organization run when it should be run like a business other than the profitability piece, as opposed to getting someone in place that knows how to run, that knows how to lead, that knows how to fundraise, and therefore more dogs are getting saved. That's my take on that. How do you approach compensation and what's your take?
- [35:34]
C
No one's getting rich in animal welfare, period. Right, period. That being said, WAGS has always advocated to pay people the market price. You know, there's a difference. But we're lessening what that, that looks like in order to retain Talent. There's a reason that most nonprofits fail. There's a reason that even more animal welfare nonprofits fail. Because one, it's certainly compensation. And then it's also compassion fatigue. Like, it is so hard to work in such an emotionally draining industry. So to your point, this issue is so big, and I don't think people really realize what an impact we have going on in shelters. So our job is to succeed in how many dogs that we're taking and that we want to grow. And I want want everyone to go home and be able to buy a pair of shoes and go out to dinner with their significant other and live a meaningful life that allows them to work in a space that they've all really dedicated themselves to and that they can feel confident in their growth and that this is a genuine career path for them. And it's also. It's worked. WAGS from day one has been financially stable. All we've done is grow year over year. So what WAGS was four years ago. That it was two years ago versus now is so different. We don't have this plateau of our impact. WAGS for good didn't exist a year and a half ago, and now it does. When I have these conversations sometimes with donors, too, it's invest in what's working. So if your goal is to impact more dogs and have more people dogs in forever homes, then why not support what we're already doing?
- [37:14]
B
What are your goals for fundraising this year? How much you want to fundraise?
- [37:17]
C
We need to fundraise well over $7 million this year.
- [37:20]
B
When you say need, tell me more.
- [37:22]
C
Need is in. We know what most of our operational budget is going to look like. We know that last year Nashville saved 1,500 dogs. We're not gonna save less than 1,500 dogs this year. I know what my salaries look like for the most part. I know what my rent is. So we know going into each calendar year, give or take, what we need to be able to not dip into our savings. The goal each year is to not dip into any of our reserves. So that 7 million is genuinely just to break even.
- [37:48]
B
So the 7 million is to break even, and that's what you guys will raise this year?
- [37:53]
C
Yeah.
- [37:53]
B
Wow. And then the last question I have for you is, I know as someone who donates myself to wags, and then I donate to other organizations, I'm very particular in making sure that what I donate is being used for the impact. So when people are in family offices and individuals of high net worth have so many options to where they donate and where they write their checks to. When they ask you questions like that, how much of this money is going towards the clients cause, what are some of the responses and how do you address that?
- [38:21]
C
Yeah, my favorite thing is to, like we did with you, bring people into our adoption center and be an open book. I think that we do an incredible job at making sure that the numbers make sense and that we are spending the majority of what we raise going back towards the programs. I think that when you are as transparent as we are in terms of you can look up our W9s, you can look at what we're spending on our programs, and I think all of that speaks for itself.
- [38:48]
B
I love it. All right. We only have so much time left. We could talk more and more about WAGS and spend two episodes on it, but we got a transition to WAGS bringing us together. So the first day we met was when I went to go rescue Teddy. That was the first time we ever met. You knew that I was coming to the center. Your social media team reached out because I was online just being like, I need to go volunteer and be with dogs. And that was the first time we met. Before I showed up up to WAGs and walks that day. Had you watched Bachelorette? Did you have any conceptions of me? What did you think before that day? And did you know anything about my life or what was going on?
- [39:28]
C
I did watch your season. I thought you were adorable. I was a big fan of you and Blake.
- [39:33]
B
Oh, okay.
- [39:34]
C
Very sad when both of you were cut.
- [39:36]
B
Wait, do you all know a funny story? When Blake met Giannina on her show on the MTV show, she had known me from our season and she's. Oh, you were on Jason season. You knew Blake. You knew Blake first.
- [39:52]
C
Yeah.
- [39:52]
B
And you're like, I'm on Blake season.
- [39:54]
C
You're on Blake.
- [39:55]
B
There you go. A little switcheroo.
- [39:56]
C
Yes.
- [39:57]
B
Here's a little trading secret for you. The margins in the apparel business are huge. And that's why a thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well. And last. And that's where Quince shines. Quince has the everyday essentials I love, like the cashmere sweaters, short sleeve Mongolian cashmere polos, linens bottoms and shorts, etc. And Quince works direct with top factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're not paying for big brand markups or fancy retail stores, just quality clothing. Their clothing is rated between 4.5 and 5 stars by thousands of people wearing it every day. And they only partner with factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. I'm actually going to Italy in June and I just got four new pieces that are unbelievable. The T shirts are incredible too. So stop over complicating your wardrobe and certainly stop overpaying. Right now. Go to quince.com/trading secrets for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to build your wardrobe and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Just go to Q U I n c e.com trading secrets for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com trading secrets yeah, I was really sad.
- [41:11]
C
I thought you guys did a tremendous job under pressure. When the Bachelor Bachelorette franchise, I think, was a little bit younger, a lot of people came out of that and acted a fool. And I was always really impressed with the two of you. I never followed you on social, so I didn't have much of a preconceived idea of you other than bubbling you in with all creators and influencers and like, what, unfortunately sometimes is the reputation that comes with that. And you've certainly shown me a lot about that world in which I have so much respect for people in this space. So I think my only concern was, yeah, maybe like that you were gonna be just a jerk or like not really care. And within 45 seconds of meeting you, I was shocked at how intentional and thoughtful and curious you were about what we were doing.
- [41:57]
B
Okay, you say this a lot, actually. You said, or I get this a lot, actually. When I meet people in person, they're like, you're different than I expected you to be.
- [42:04]
C
Yes.
- [42:04]
B
Why do you think that is?
- [42:07]
C
I don't think it's anything about you. I think that shows way more about people's judgments or assumptions that they're making on other people, which aren't fair. But I think that's an uphill battle as especially you were a single guy, you're a good looking guy, obviously, that I think people just want to eye roll and think that you're. Yeah. Arrogant, conceited, an egomaniac. I think that all that just comes with people in this space and I meet tons of people the same way you do. No one asks more questions than you do, which I've always really appreciated. And yeah, you just, you so yourself, so comfortable and yeah. So curious about how to learn more.
- [42:47]
B
Love it. Wow. And you and I were friends for a while. I obviously adopted Teddy who has got to be one of the craziest dogs that's ever come to your establishment. Can you agree this guy is a maniac.
- [42:59]
C
I think Teddy would have been returned so many times had you not adopted him. I think we probably would have had to pay to put him through a board and train. And it took a very special individual to harness all that is Teddy Tardick.
- [43:13]
B
Teddy Tardick. So I harnessed it. We kept in touch just as, hey, what trainers do I work with? How do I help me with this dog. I need help. So we're friends. We reconnected over the summer. That reconnection turned into. Turned into something. And then I'd say, like, early fall, we started dating. And I remember when we were at that restaurant, you know which one I'm talking about, the Italian restaurant. We're eating pizza. You're Maldives. We're eating in Brooklyn. We're eating pizza. And I remember, we're like, all right, what are we doing? What are we doing here? And I was just like, now that I've got to spend as much time as I've got to spend with you every day. I can't imagine another day without you in my life. And then I, like, paused, and I was like, oh, my God. I can't believe. I can't believe it. I just. That just came so naturally. I didn't even think about it. It just came out. I started, like, crying a little bit, and the rest is history.
- [44:06]
C
The rest is history. Yeah. I think you nailed it. There was nothing that was ever performative in our relationship. I think you were incredibly safe, and home is probably the best way to word it. You just felt so like I'd known you for a million years. And once. It was. It just was.
- [44:26]
B
What was it about us that you thought could make it work?
- [44:30]
C
I think what made me feel like I knew we were going to work was just our level of chemistry that I just don't think can be forced. I think that there are a lot of things that you can work on in a relationship, but I think there has to be that foundational connection. I think some of it was the way we were raised. I think there was a lot of shared experiences you and I had, both in our past relationships and. And the way that we just showed up for people, I think we really connected over. And instead of being jaded by a lot of those experiences, I think it really rewarded us and just that all of the things that we wanted to show up for in our person were finally, like, with another person that wanted to show up the same way. And I think our communication styles are so in sync with each other and. Yeah, I just love you.
- [45:27]
B
I love you, too, baby. I think one thing I've always been attracted to is strong women and feminists. My grandmother was a feminist. She was out there marching the streets. My mother is a feminist. You are a feminist. And what I think is also so special is that. And you've brought this to my light. I can be a feminist. And I can also acknowledge that this whole movement of all men suck is because a lot of men are trash and they suck. There's also a lot of good guys out there. And I think the way that you show up for yourself and for your organization and for your friends and for your family and everything is so beautiful. But also the way you can show up for me and support me and help me when I'm down and out and. And put me on the right path when I'm on the wrong path as far as, like, let's say, sad about a situation or frustrated. And so, yeah, I think you exemplify, like, the absolute perfect balance of strong woman and so thoughtful and supportive. And I'm so appreciative of that.
- [46:34]
C
I think it is just the easiest thing I've ever done. And if you in your bones do not want your partner to win, even outside of me, whether that is personally, professionally, if it is not so innate to cheer on and want to support the person who you're spending your life with, I think you are definitely with the wrong person. And loving you has just been just a joy. And we were just having this conversation the other day with a couple of. The marriage is hard and that relationships are so challenging and how much you have to work at it and. Sure. I'm sure during certain seasons of life, when you have an infant and you've slept for two hours, like, of course that's hard. But we say it over and over. Life is hard. There's so much grief. There's so much stress. Life is so fast. But there is not one day that I've spent with you where you've made my life harder. Like, you make my life lighter and you make my life easier. And I think I do the same for you.
- [47:31]
B
I love it. I couldn't agree more with you. Perfectly said. And I think when it comes to arguing, you and I disagree a lot.
- [47:39]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:40]
B
Every day we disagree, and every day we talk through those disagreements. Sometimes we laugh at it, Sometimes we might have a little bicker session about it, But I think the Idea of having disagreements is so dramatically different than having toxic arguments. Yeah, we've never had a toxic argument.
- [47:57]
C
Imagine you raising your voice or me raising my voice. There's just such a level of respect, and there's also nothing hard about a hard conversation with you. And I think when you're with the wrong person or there is such, like, a communication or personality mismatch, it brings out, like, fight or flight in people where we all have people in our lives where the second they start talking, like, you feel that, like, in your chest, you want to be defensive. And that's just never existed between the two of us. And that's what, I guess earlier when I said there's just, like, a foundational understanding. And it's very complimentary, our personalities together in that way. But, yeah, like, you say things, or I say things all the time, where it's usually, like, very lighthearted. But was it a catch? Was it not a catch?
- [48:43]
B
Catch. It was a catch. She doesn't take the Buffalo Bills. Catch was a catch.
- [48:47]
C
It was not a cat.
- [48:48]
B
Unbelievable.
- [48:49]
C
But, yeah, those are very easy for us to laugh at or work through.
- [48:53]
B
And, yeah, life is hard. Business is hard. Family's hard. Friendships are hard. Health is hard. But life with you is so easy. I cannot wait for everything for us. There's so many exciting things ahead. I can't imagine another day without you being in my life. And I'm so happy you are in my life. And I think that's a good time to tell everyone that we. It's not. We haven't closed yet, but we came to an agreement on a house price. We picked a house, Moose. Teddy. And you and I are moving in together. We are gonna be in Nashville. We got our home base there. Still have the place here through September for work purposes. Might continue to have a place. We'll see. And we've been living together for a couple months, and it's been amazing.
- [49:32]
C
Yeah. My favorite story is one time we got back from a trip, and I was calling an Uber, and you're like, no, I got the Uber. We're good. And I was like, I. We don't live together. Like, I'm going home. And you're like, oh, I hate that.
- [49:45]
B
No, don't go home. Come with me. Yeah.
- [49:47]
C
And I think it was like, a week later. You're like, just go get your stuff. And, yeah, it's been that ever since. But I, as a homebody, as a sourdough baker, is a cooker. I am so excited to have our home base and make it our own and settle in two years from now.
- [50:03]
B
What does your life look like?
- [50:05]
C
Oh, my goodness.
- [50:06]
B
What was our life look like?
- [50:07]
C
Well, we'll be married within two years, baby. Somewhere in the mix of that. And we'll be crushing at wags. You'll be crushing at your stuff. Maybe we'll do some stuff together, some projects.
- [50:18]
B
Okay.
- [50:19]
C
I love it.
- [50:19]
B
And yeah, question for you on the projects together. Social media is like a new thing that you're experiencing now. I think when we started dating, you said you had a couple thousand followers. Now you got a whole community following you. What's your take on social media and has it impacted your life for the good or even bad?
- [50:38]
C
Yeah, I. It gave me a ton of anxiety in the beginning, us posting it and all that. That was going to invite. I think you did a really good job at standing with me and making sure that I felt supported and all of that. And also posting it when we felt like we were ready. I think we did that very well. So I felt ready. Even if we know what the comments have been, we know what the digs are. None of that really has impacted me though. I think that I felt so secure in our relationship and who I am as a person. That stuff was like, easy to roll off. I was bullied in high school. Like, I got it. And then I think I was able to sit with myself with you, with the people in my life that I'm closest to, and have real conversations about what social media was. Ms. Elisa, our CMO, shout out to Alisa.
- [51:27]
B
She's the best.
- [51:28]
C
Yes, our favorite girl. And she worded it really well. She said, I think you'd be really remiss to not use it as an opportunity to talk about the things that you talk about with everybody. You know me, I'm at the bar, I'm like, how do you feel about rescue dogs? Or have you ever met a pit bull? So using it as a platform in a way that feels organic. I don't have plans to get to a certain goal, you know, or get certain amount of followers, but I think that with our life together and just being who we are, showcasing what I do, if that means that I get to educate more people or. Or more people adopt dogs because they follow me, then that's a win.
- [52:06]
B
That's a win. I love it. And you learn. I was telling you, you learn a lot in social media, especially when you just start it. A lot comes up. You get a lot of people in your circle that are the first ones to text you about something happening. And want the tea. Or you get a lot of people that are the first one to watch your stories. But soon those people may be not supporting the lifestyle as much because a lot comes up. They see happiness, they see some success and that creates a lot of stirred emotions, which is interesting. But we'll talk about that in the recap. We're gonna have to have a part two because there's a lot going on here. Your home is now rented. You're moving in with me. It is our home for me, you at Moose and Teddy. But we gotta wrap with a trading secret, Catherine. So one trading secret you can leave us with. What's it gonna be?
- [52:51]
C
I should have thought about this more. If I had one trading secret, it would be to lean into acceptance. I think that's an underrated life skill. The more that you can accept what was that brings clarity and space to reflect. I think it moves you to what should be and what is meant for you.
- [53:11]
B
I love it. It's beautiful. That will not be your last trading secret on this podcast. You will be back. We might see you in the recap. So everyone stay tuned and make sure everyone goes checks out. Wags and walks. Where can people donate Wags and Walks down?
- [53:26]
C
You can find all the information there.
- [53:28]
B
And where can everyone find you?
- [53:29]
C
My Instagram.
- [53:29]
B
Yep.
- [53:30]
C
Katherine Hurley.
- [53:31]
B
Katherine Hurley. Wags and walks. Guys, go donate. Give us five stars. And Catherine, thank you so much for entering secrets.
- [53:39]
C
Thank you so much for having the
- [53:40]
B
first time, it will be the last time.
- [53:42]
C
You're welcome.
- [53:52]
B
Making that money money.
- [54:06]
D
Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [54:42]
A
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D
best price Price hi, this is Alex Canceritz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts.