296. Tom Patterson: Tommy John, 9-Figure Brand & Turning a $5K Idea Into an Apparel Empire

Summary

Trading Secrets Episode #296 Summary Host: Jason Tartick
Guest: Tom Patterson (Co-Founder, Tommy John)
Release Date: May 4, 2026
Length: ~70 minutes

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the entrepreneurial journey of Tom Patterson, founder of Tommy John, the comfort-focused apparel brand that broke into the crowded world of men’s underwear and basics. Host Jason Tartick uncovers the unfiltered trading secrets behind turning a $5,000 side-hustle into a thriving nine-figure business, focusing on money decisions, risk, sales, resilience, and strategic growth. Tom shares candid stories, revealing the mindsets, practical steps, setbacks, and unlikely opportunities that shaped Tommy John’s rise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tommy John Today: Scale, Scope, and Brand Identity

• Turned 18 years old in April 2026.
• Nine-figure revenue, ~100 employees, HQ in New York City, with warehouses in Texas and California.
• Multi-channel: Sold in Nordstrom, Dillard’s, Dick’s Sporting Goods, online DTC (primary revenue source), high-end specialty stores.
• Brand name origin: “My middle name’s John. People have been calling me Tommy since I was a little kid. That’s how we got Tommy John.” (02:39 — Tom)
• Philosophy: “There’s no one that’s self made … The right people came into the business at the right time and God certainly had a hand in our growth.” (02:57 — Tom)

2. From Medical Sales to Apparel Innovator

• Zero experience or network in apparel; parents were funeral directors.
• Sparked by watching The Big Idea and his wife Erin’s own startup; motivation from identifying his own need (baggy, non-functional undershirts while selling medical devices in San Diego).
• “Why doesn’t anyone make an undershirt that’s longer, tapered, stretchier, doesn’t yellow as quickly, stays tucked in?” (06:42 — Tom)
• First prototype sewn by a local tailor, featuring found materials (even Donald Duck print ribbing from Joanne’s!).

3. The Hustle: Early Investments, Sales Mindset & Iteration

• First batch: 200 undershirts for $2,000. Total early investment around $5,000.
• DIY: Modest website, modeled products himself, direct sales to friends and family.
• Sales focus: “Nothing in this world starts without a sale … I’d rather hire will over skill all day long at our company.” (10:46 — Tom)
• Persistence after retail rejection: pivoted to consignment at bespoke suit stores; constant market feedback and customer demos.
• Importance of packaging: Surveyed women (who buy most men’s basics) and made visually distinctive, tactile packaging, inspiring Neiman Marcus to pick them up. (24:31)

4. Financial Realities & Going “All In”

• Saved ~$15,000 (401k) plus ~$5-10k personal savings; supplemented by Erin’s business and unemployment after a layoff.
• Cash constraints: “Clothing takes a lot of inventory and has a lot of cash constraints along with it … I’m just going to go all in, burn the boats. There’s no plan B.” (16:08 — Tom)
• Did everything manually for the first years: manufacturing, tagging, shipping, in-store training, and demos.
• Delayed gratification: “We didn’t pay ourselves for four or five years. First five or six people, we paid more than Erin and I made.” (19:53 — Tom)

5. Breaking Through: Marketing, Radio, and Influencer Serendipity

• First big sales from department stores (Neiman Marcus in 2009; consignment and sell-through focus).

• Discovered the power of radio and podcast marketing via an organic plug by Howard Stern (2014).

• Game changer:

  • “I think we did $40,000 in online sales [after Stern’s mention]; up until then, $7,000 was our best day.” (33:05 — Tom)
  • After advertising: paid back a $60,000 radio buy in 36 hours, sold 6 months’ inventory in 45 days.

• Howard Stern’s organic endorsement: “He designated in his will that he wants to be buried in Tommy John.” (35:01 — Tom)

• Strategic risk: “It was a moment where we just needed to do it… it was more just an intuition.” (33:48 — Tom)

6. Growth Levers & Repeat Business

• Sales ramped: $50k (Year 1), $250k (Year 2), $3M (Year 3), then $4.7M, $11M, $30M, $52M over subsequent years.
• DTC online sales and radio/podcast ads became key scalable drivers.
• “Underwear is a really loyal category ... as long as you don’t change the fit or quality, you’ve got a customer for life.” (37:16 — Tom)
• Repeat business drives profitability and growth.

7. Celebrity Endorsements & Strategic Partnerships

• Kevin Hart became an investor after organically posting about Tommy John:

  • “He called me, said, I love the product so much … There’s an opportunity for me to invest.” (44:21 — Tom)
  • Authenticity: “He’s just like a standup guy. Not perfect, but genuine, down to earth, and such a big advocate.” (48:58 — Tom)

• Other strategic partnerships: Colin Cowherd, social influencer seeding, fun packaging and creative campaigns.

8. Product Differentiation & Protection

• Patented utility: “We have a utility patent on our undershirt because of the utility of staying tucked in. It took like seven years to get this patent.” (54:37 — Tom)
• Constant innovation: New fabrics (Air underwear), anti-odor, fit/function improvements.
• Distinct marketing: “We want to be the first Tommy John, not the next Calvin Klein.” (26:23 — Tom)
• Authentic, approachable voice, not just sexy/aspirational—models smile and pose in relatable scenarios.

9. Private Equity, Financial Milestones & Mindset

• Did a private equity round in late 2021 for “meaningful” liquidity (enough to not work again if desired).
• Chose to optimize profitability, not raise (or give up) outside capital until mature and ready.
• “If you want to raise money, you can, but you don’t have to because you’re not going to need to.” (58:31 — Tom)
• Margins and cash flow always prioritized.

10. Tough Lessons: Burnout & Self-Care

• Panic attack in 2018 was a wake up call:
  • “Longest five minutes of my life … I started Googling, and it was a panic attack.” (61:18 — Tom)
  • Changed routines: sleep, fitness, faith, team delegation, ice baths.
  • “Stress is a blessing…If you’re not growing, you’re dying.” (63:29 — Tom)
• Trusted team forced necessary time-off for recovery: “It was like an intervention … a tough deal to swallow.” (65:03 — Tom)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Failure and Persistence

  “There’s so many people that could have been millionaires that were one ‘yes’ away ... The people that make one more call, one more visit, that’s their breakthrough moment.” (67:00 — Tom)

• Sales as Key Skill

  "Nothing in this world starts without a sale ... I'd rather hire will over skill all day long at our company." (10:46 — Tom)

• On Authentic Branding

  “We want it to be like real life. Not Zoolander … don’t be scared to be yourself and be authentic.” (51:58 — Tom)

• Howard Stern Influence

  “Howard’s content—what they talk about on the show—it’s for a group of people that absolutely love it … but he was meticulous about checking everything in the studio. It’s no accident he became what he has become.” (42:06 — Tom/Jason)

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Notable Timestamps

• 02:39: Tommy John 18-year company snapshot, employee count, naming story
• 06:06–07:35: Origin story—recognizing the problem, initial idea spark
• 09:00–10:45: $5,000 prototype, sales focus, first website and outreach
• 16:08–18:36: “All in” mindset, burning the boats, manual hustle in early years
• 24:31: Packaging innovation, female consumer insights, standing out in stores
• 33:05–33:39: Impact of Howard Stern’s endorsement and first ad buy
• 41:22: Howard Stern: “I can't live without Tommy John. Here’s why I love it.”
• 44:21–48:58: Kevin Hart investment and brand partnership
• 54:37–56:14: Patents, innovation, competing through constant evolution
• 56:35–59:11: First “payday,” financial windfall, fundraising approach
• 61:18–63:29: Entrepreneurial burnout, mental health, building resilience
• 67:00: Tom’s trading secret—power of persistence and getting used to failure

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Key Takeaways for Entrepreneurs & Listeners

• Solving your own problem is a powerful launchpad—even if you have no experience.
• Sales skills are indispensable—invest in them.
• Iterate relentlessly and don’t let imperfect first attempts stop you from starting.
• Authenticity resonates—brand voice and vision matter as much as the product itself.
• Packaging and presentation are crucial, especially in stagnant or overlooked categories.
• Be bold with marketing when conviction meets traction, and leverage new channels.
• Resilience and support networks sustain you through years of risk and uncertainty.
• Success is never strictly linear; even in year six, the biggest breakthroughs may await.
• Don’t wait for all the lights to turn green—just go.

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Where to Connect

• Tom Patterson (Instagram): @imTomPatterson (not very active)
• Brand: @TommyJohnWear
• Website: tommyjohn.com

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This episode is an unvarnished, deeply insightful look at the true arc of entrepreneurship—risk, relentless hustle, creativity, teamwork, innovation, and grit—with practical secrets anyone can apply, no matter how humble their beginnings.

Transcript

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[Chase]

Welcome back another episode of Trading Secrets. Today we're joined by a founder who walked away from medical device sales to reinvent one of the most overlooked categories and apparel. What is it? Men's underwear. Tom Patterson is the co founder of Tommy John, the brand that turned comfortable basics into a premium high growth business. Tom and his wife Erin built Tommy John from scratch, navigating early cash constraints, retail skepticism, product development, risk and the challenge of convincing men to care about something maybe they just couldn't see or they were feeling. Though today we are diving into the real numbers, the real risk in the mindset in it takes to leave a traditional career path and bet on yourself. Tom Patterson, thank you so much for being on Trade Secrets.

[Tom Patterson]

Thanks for having me Excited to be here.

[Chase]

I'll tell you what, the group's going to hear this. We call them the money mafia that listens and they're the first thing they're going to be thinking about is that shoot we did for Tommy John. So this is in connection to that shoot. We had the best time doing it. And I'll tell you what, I'm wearing Tommy John right now. This stuff is like butter. So if you guys don't own any Tommy John, you got to get on it. But we got to get the story behind Tommy John. Before we do that, I want to start in 20. For anyone that hasn't heard of the company, talk to people a little bit about the size scale today. How many employees do you have? What does revenue look like what is the company today? Where is it selling? Give us the overall profile.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, so you know, we turned 18 years old in April, which is kind of crazy to think about. I think I read somewhere only 4% of companies make it 10 years or more.

[Chase]

Wow.

[Tom Patterson]

So we're less than the 4% right now. So you know, but it's taken a long time and I think anything that's worthwhile takes a while to build and build the right way with the right infrastructure. So you know, 18 years seems like a long time but it goes by really quickly. So you know, now we've been a nine figure business for some time now. Like a lot of brands were, you know, been challenged with tariffs and just you know, a lot of uncertainty the last year and a half. Like any anybody in the clothing industry. We're around 100 people, we're based in New York City, we've got warehouses in Texas and California and just a great team, great, great, great brand. For many of you who may not know the brand, my middle name's John. People have been calling me Tommy since I was a little kid. That's how we got the name Tommy John. I've not had elbow surgery, have no relation to the baseball pitcher. It's a nice reference. But yeah it's, you know, it's been a lot of fun. We've had so many great people that have came into the company and impacted it. There's no one that's self made and Aaron and I are certainly not self made people. I don't believe in that. There's people around you that help, help you become self made. And I think a lot of it's just the right people came into the business at the right time and God certainly had a hand in our growth for sure. There's nothing else that explains what it's become.

[Chase]

I mean nine figure business, 100 plus people, it's unbelievable where it is today. We'll talk about how it got there because what's interesting is you have no education, no experience or network in the apparel business. So of course you know, you have, I saw a little bit about your parents business or being directors in the funeral home area. And like you, this is I think unheard of to think about someone from scratch that has built it to this level. And that's what I want. People, when you're listening today is when you have an idea, when you have a need, when you have something that isn't fitting into your day to day, you too can build this nine figure business. The other thing I Want to give people some ideas for is like where, when you're selling today, are you selling direct to consumer? Can you tell people something about the retail stores you're in currently in 2026?

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, for sure. You know, you can find us in Nordstrom, Dillard's, Dick's, sporting goods, direct to consumer, online business. Probably the biggest percentage of our business, high end men's specialty stores. So you see your product in thousands of stores now, but it didn't happen overnight. It's been slowly building. And that's the exciting thing. I think you need to be where the customer is. You hear, you hear ad on the radio or you see your commercial, your Catherine's commercial, which is running on TV right now.

[Chase]

Let's go.

[Tom Patterson]

You see the brand like, then you walk into a Nordstrom or a Dillard's or a Dick's. You want to be where the customer is after they hear it, they see it, they learn about it. And we've never been about a mono channel business. We've always wanted to be diversified with the channels that sell our product.

[Chase]

I love it. And I wanted to establish that again one more time for everyone listening. You can do this. There are so many people that come on this podcast that might even be billionaires, and it feels untouchable, it feels unrelatable because they have such a specific niche that you're like, I could never do that. Your story is very relatable, it's very touchable. It's not untouchable. So I wanted to start with where you are today. Let's go back to 18 years. So you're, you're trying to figure out your career track. You're selling medical devices. How does a need for anything in apparel even come across your desk?

[Tom Patterson]

There was a show called the Big Idea on MSNBC back in 2007 and it was really Shark Tank. Before Shark Tank, sure. And my wife Erin, co founder of Tommy John, had started a business called Organic Heads. She was into organic product, household cleaners, fragrance, fragrance free. And I saw her build this website, negotiate reseller pricing, start buying product wholesale and reselling it online. And I thought, like, what's my idea? Yeah, I want to do something. And as a kid, I, I had lawn mowing businesses. I shoveled sidewalks and snow, blowed snow before school, after school, knock on doors. So sales was in my background in a lot of ways. And the idea with the Big Idea on TV was most of the entrepreneurs had solved a problem that was personal to them. A lot of people say, hey, there's A product out there, I want to make it better. But my problem was I wore men's undershirts. I wore a suit and tie every day, selling medical devices into hospitals in San Diego, where I lived at the time, I was sweating through. So I wore an undershirt to kind of protect that barrier. And as my dress shirts were more tailored, all the undershirts were baggy, they were boxy, they'd ride up, they'd come untucked, they'd stretch out, they'd shrink to like a midriff if you wash them incorrectly or dry them wrong. Oh, yeah. And I thought, why doesn't anyone make an undershirt that's longer, it's tapered, it's stretchier, it doesn't yellow as quickly, it stays tucked in. So I set out to create what I thought was the ultimate undershirt. And what I realized, I went to the garment district in downtown Los Angeles.

[Chase]

So is that how you start, like, so obviously you have this need, and then you say, I gotta, I gotta solve it for me. When you first went to the garment district, were you thinking, I'm gonna start a business, or you're like, I just need a shirt that helps my day

[Tom Patterson]

to day needs, I thought would be the spark for a business. I got out of my car at a hospital in San Diego. Everything was tucked in, but my undershirt was bunched up. It creates like this billowy muffin top look, right? You kind of pull it down, readjust yourself, and it's a pain in the. You know what? So after that meeting, I went to Nordstrom and Neiman Marcus in San Diego, and I. I started asking the salespeople, do you have undershirts that stay tucked in? And I learned that most of the brands pin the shirts behind the models for the photo shoot. So the product on the packaging you see the model wearing does not fit like it's perceived to fit. So that was a question mark. So when I went to the garment district, I thought, what do I fabric that I want to have. Soft, stretchy, breathable. Took that fabric to a tailor at a dry cleaners in San Diego. I drew a sketch with my second grade art skills, and I said, can you make undershirts? I want a T shirt that's built like this. And she said, why would you want a shirt that's almost like a dress? It's long. And I said, I don't know, I'm just kind of weird with this product. And funny story, we talked about this last night. Our first shirts had this Donald Duck repeat character print ribbing around it because I didn't have ribbing and the only place I could find it was a Joanne's down the street.

[Chase]

So was the Donald Duck ribbing in

[Tom Patterson]

the inside or on the outside? So I'm not into Disney.

[Chase]

Do you have that shirt?

[Tom Patterson]

No.

[Chase]

Like you got to, you got to remake that first shirt that had Donald Duck ribbing on.

[Tom Patterson]

You know, we should remake it just for the, you know, the history of it. But I think what it goes to show is it doesn't have to be perfect. Just getting done is good enough. Because I wanted to prove the utility or the functionality. The undershirts staying in place worked. It worked. Did everything I hoped it would do. Then next step is I went and found a manufacturer in downtown Los Angeles, walked in, paid him cash and an envelope and made 200 undershirts.

[Chase]

How much did that cost you? How much cash did you pay?

[Tom Patterson]

Oh, man, it was probably $2,000.

[Chase]

2,000 bucks. Okay, so let's pause for one second. So you're at a manufacturer, you got thousand bucks to make 200 shirts with the prototype you created with your brain, your idea. And you have, at this point, you have no experience, you've never made anything apparel like in, or even go back to, I think about some people, how they got into their careers, like in high school where you voted like best dressed or anything like that. Was there anything in your blood and background in the apparel business?

[Tom Patterson]

No, nothing. I mean, I'd like to think I was always into comfort.

[Chase]

Okay.

[Tom Patterson]

You know, I would prefer to wear sweatpants and a hoodie to school. I wasn't allowed to wear at our high school. Yeah. So maybe there was some, you know, pent up frustration there. But what I learned is this category really was ripe for disruption. It hadn't been innovated or and had not evolved in a really long time. And so all in, I would guess around $5,000 between buying the product, having it made, building a two page PayPal checkout website, me doing the modeling on a rooftop in Pacific Beach, California with a friend of mine.

[Chase]

That was it.

[Tom Patterson]

And I started selling, sending emails to friends and family. And slowly we started selling product. But I would say for any of the listeners out there, Jason, I would say the number one skill I invested in was sales. Nothing in this world starts without a sale. Knocking on doors, trying to get lawns to mow in my hometown, sidewalks to shovel. I sold cell phones at a kiosk in Scottsdale's Fashion Square mall during college. And I Learned a lot of EQ personal skills. And I think that skill set applied perfectly to medical device sales. And then my medical device sales background. Conceptual selling. Now I'm selling underwear and undershirts into department stores to department store buyers. So I would say you don't have to have the perfect connections. I didn't go to the right college. I never had the right internship. I didn't have the connections. But, you know, where there's a will, there's a way. And I. I'd rather hire will over skill all day long at our company. And I think if. If you're curious, you just. You find a way at the end of the day. And I was just very persistent. I saw the opportunity. I knew what it could become. The underwear category was really serious. It was unrelatable. The models were unrelatable. You know, I wanted models to smile. I like to have dogs in the photo shoots. We can talk about that if you want. I want it to be like real life. Yeah. Not Zoolander. I love Zoolander, the movie. But it just. It felt like there had to be a better way. And I know that's a lot to unpack, but that I just kept on seeing the signs that gave me more confidence to continue to keep going.

[Chase]

Yeah. Two very successful businessmen we've had on. One that started a chicken finger company raising canes, and another insect repellent company. Both of those two said the same thing. They're like, you have to know how to sell, and then you have to know how to sell your vision. Because both of those people were told, there's no chance you're going to sell chicken tenders and fries and then be worth $20 billion there. Todd Graves is. And the same with the insect repellent. So I think that's something to take away. One thing, though, that is different than selling is the idea of cash and financing. So this cost you 5,000 bucks. I think one thing that our listeners always are curious about is when you were. It's the leap. Okay. So once you build the momentum, you spend the money, you got your prototypes, you could start selling into stores. You could slowly build momentum. People and entrepreneurs have the biggest struggle with that first chapter. So before that first chapter, I want to ask you, you're working in medical device sales. How much are you making in medical device sales, and how much did you save before you could take the risk at something like this?

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, I mean, Ed Mylett talks about this. Middle class is the hardest class to get out of because it's comfortable. I grew up Middle class, sometimes lower middle class, sometimes upper middle class. But I always felt money was uncertain. It seemed volatile in my household. And you know, when I got into this medical device sales, great job, very stable people are always sick. They're always going to need vital medical devices to stay alive. It was, it was a nice six figure job. I won sales awards, I liked it. I wouldn't say I loved it. I just felt like there was more and I wanted to control my own destiny. I wanted to create my own opportunities. And when I looked at that, it was like being an entrepreneur, that's really the only way. So I think a lot of people like, well, does it start as a side hustle? Yeah, on nights and weekends, instead of going out, instead of watching, you know, Netflix series on TV at 7 o' clock to 9 o', clock, I was starting this and we started in early 2008. And then fast forward October 2008, I was laid off my medical sales job. The very next day I read an article that there's no better time to start a company than during a recession. And I just kind of followed the clues and I thought to myself, I'm not married yet. I was with my wife, girlfriend at the time. I didn't have kids, I didn't own a house. If I'm going to go and take a big swing, now's the time. I don't want to be this coulda, woulda, shoulda guy 20 years from now thinking like, I had this idea that dude became what I could have become. I want it to be the guy that became what they could become.

[Chase]

I love that.

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[Tom Patterson]

So I just went all in, you know, and everything you had to kind of unlearn everything I learned in school about taking risks, cashing out your 401k, you know, your, your safety net, using my friends at American Express, Visa, MasterCard to, to Finance inventory. Clothing takes a lot of inventory and it has a lot of cash constraints along with it. But my mindset was, you know what, I'm just going to go all in, burn the boats. There's no plan B, there's no plan C. I have to be all about this and just immerse myself in it. And my girlfriend, wife now Erin, had a business, so she was able to help pay some of the bills. You know, my unemployment only lasted so long at the time. And, and I think a lot of entrepreneurs, you almost have to operate like there's a gun to your head. Yep. Running your business every day, every minute is so critical. So I just went to work, calling Neiman Marcus buyers. I got a meeting with buyer Neiman Marcus in Dallas, said, I have a product that will change your customer's life. Can I come meet with you and present it to you again? My sales background worked really well with that and had a great meeting. They put us in 15 stores in the fall of 2009. So we moved to Los Angeles. Our T shirts, undershirts were made in Chinatown. Our underwear was made in Compton. And I was the fit model for the product. I tried it on the factory, think, all right, this fits pretty good. Fortunately, I was a size medium, so it worked really well. I was a fit model dimensions. But Monday through Thursday, we'd be in the factories folding undershirts, folding underwear, applying the hang tags, putting the UPC sticker on, putting in the box, driving it to our warehouse. And then Thursday through Sunday, I'd fly out to Chicago, Atlanta, Dallas and spend three days in the store training the salespeople in these stores, talking to customers and really getting my feet and ear to the ground, hearing about what do they like, what aren't they getting? And it, it Created new idea opportunities for us for new products. And that 18 month period we learned so much because we were doing everything. We were wearing all the hats, answering customer service emails and there's no job that we really haven't done at the company. We didn't raise money and hire a bunch of people to do the things we didn't do. In the early days, it was our own money, so every dollar was critical. So we were very resourceful with everything that we did starting out. And it was 2008, so the only way we could go was up in a recession, especially because we had products that really had never been in the market before.

[Chase]

That's a good transition. 2008, I'm seeing and I'm hearing. I'm sure you guys are back at home. So many common denominators from other business leaders we've had on one being your friend Ryan Sirhan. Ryan Sirhan got into the real estate business in 2008. One of his trading secrets was when people tell you to do something at the least expected time, that's actually sometimes the most opportune time to do it right. He's like, who would ever get into real estate when the entire industry blew up, Blew up? He's like, I found it to be an opportunity. The other one you said is Burn the Boats. Matt Higgins is the author of Burn the Boats and he's been on the show too. So it's so fun to hear the things that you're saying and draw these common parallels to people that have done it in all different spaces, all different industries. When you talked about cash constraints, you talked about Amex, you talked about 401k. I think when people are reading their entrepreneur book and they're midway through chapter one, the next thing they say is the money. You'd already talked about 2 to $5,000 in cash to actually get your inventory when you decision. Because I think this is one of the hardest thing that entrepreneurs have to do. I'm leaving my full time job. You actually got laid off from it, but at that point, how much money did you have to put into this business to start it? When you liquidated your 401k, how much are we talking? Did you find outside investment or did you use all of your money?

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, it was all my money. So I would guess probably $15,000 in 401k netted after, you know, taxes and then savings another 5 or 10. But it was also to cover living expenses, travel expenses to all these cities. And, you know, it adds up. So you, you have to be good at money management, right? And yeah, it never went down to zero. But were there nights with me staring at the ceiling thinking, like, how are we ever going to make money in this, dude? I'll be honest, that that feeling didn't leave for four or five years. We didn't pay ourselves for four or five years. In the early days, I would say the first five or six people that came into the company, we paid more than Aaron and I made. So. But we always believed at some point it would hit right. There was never a feeling of like, we're not going to make it. I think playing sports is a big part of my life. And I think as an athlete, you get used to failure, right? So you're comfortable with failure because you know you're going to improve and move on and get past that. And I think a lot of my childhood prepared me for the challenges and gave us the ability to continue to endure. But we had a wholesale business selling into department stores. And a lot of times you don't get paid for 45 to 60 days. So that cash is just sitting. You're like, when am I going to get paid? When am I going to get paid? And then you have to buy inventory. But our business really changed in around late 2012, 2013, when we started selling direct to consumer selling online. We didn't have to have terms. We got paid immediately before it shipped and we just. That's really when the business started to scale and we were starting to generate more profitability, which we could invest back into the business.

[Chase]

Makes sense.

[Tom Patterson]

Get a real office out of our 500 square foot office apartment in Chelsea.

[Chase]

We're getting into the 2012 time period before we do. I almost don't want to miss a step that 5,000 bucks you put out there because I think the early steps are the one people really benefit from. It's awesome to hear where you are today, but it's like, what are the practical steps that someone back at home could also do? You buy 200 shirts. Let's call it 200 shirts. You spend 5,000 bucks in that moment. How quickly did it take you to turn those 200 shirts? Were those 200 shirts used for marketing to send to people like, what did you do with that first product?

[Tom Patterson]

So I started going into men's specialty stores in San Diego and they all said, I said, we have a product that you don't carry. I see you're selling traditional boxy, baggy T shirts that shrink. Would you have any interest in carrying this? You're like, no one's going to wear a shirt that's longer, that's tapered like this. And something just wasn't resonating with them. And after being turned down like four or five times, I was like, I'm going to go into a men's custom made suit store because guys are willing to spend for fit and quality and I'll put it on consignment. And I went into this specialty store in La Jolla and I said, I've got this product, here's what it does. I'm going to give you a sample. If you like it, you can sign these and just pay me for what sells. And I learned that consignment was a risk free way for them. And I just needed sales and like proof of concept.

[Chase]

Sure.

[Tom Patterson]

And so I doing that. And then we went to this trade show in Las Vegas where all the big fashion brands go. I think it was like $3,000 to enter buy all this inventory, mannequins. I did some undershirt video and we sold. I think it. No, I think it was like four or $5,000 all in. And we only sold like $1,800 worth of product. And I remember driving back from Las Vegas to San Diego. I'm like, how is this going to work?

[Chase]

What year was this?

[Tom Patterson]

This is 2008. Wow. Or sorry, this is 2000? Yeah, this is 2008. About a month before I was laid off my medical sales job, I did this on a long weekend and I was like, something's wrong. There's not. It's not resonating the way it needs to resonate. I needed to be in a store where there was like a personalized experience. And Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom, they have personal shoppers that walk customers through and they really explain the brands and the products and the utilities of it. So I felt I needed to be more of a mass retailer with multiple locations. And that's really when I started preparing to get into a department store. And I think this is the one thing that really important for your listeners is to get into a department store. For our category, you had to have packaging, a box package. And we started working with a packaging designer and we started surveying women. 65% of men's underwear and undershirts was bought by Women in 2008, 2009. So we surveyed women and we learned that they do all the shopping for men's. Men's underwear for the household. They typically buy a brand that their husband's been wearing for a long time or they look for a good looking guy in the packaging.

[Chase]

Interesting.

[Tom Patterson]

So we created a packaging. We found through surveys that a lot of women love Tiffany's jewelry and chocolate. At the time, all the packaging was black and white in the department store, so it all looked the same except the different words for the different brands. So we chose a good looking guy, looks similar to you. Chocolate and Tiffany's blue esque color on the packaging. So we, we popped on, on the shelves, like firing like, like it just stood out. And then you open the box, it slid open instead of like, you know, mangling the boxes like you see in a Macy's. Yeah. And you could touch and like pet the fabric and, and it was a very sensory experience. And that was one of the main reasons Neiman Marcus picked it up, is they love the packaging so much and there was a great product inside.

[Chase]

Is bitcoin complicated or do people just think it is? I mean, we know David thinks that bitcoin is very complicated.

[Podcast Advertiser]

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[Chase]

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[Tom Patterson]

So we found these little ways to have an edge and stand out in a highly competitive market and environment. And I think these little things became big things along the way because we did things the other brands weren't doing. And I think you always have to figure out, I don't want to be like everybody else. I don't want to be the next Calvin Klein or the next. We want to be the first Tommy John. In order to do that, we had to do things different. So we. There's these bold things that we did. But it's not rocket science. Anybody can do this. And that was like a key thing that was really big for us in the long run and gave us the opportunity to kind of, you know, get a tryout.

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Tom Patterson]

In these major department stores. And I would say it's one thing to sell into the stores and you can hope and pray and ask friends to go in, but there's a sell in. But there's also a sell through. And the sell through for us was me going to the stores, investing in the time of the salespeople, talking to customers. And I would say our second store I went to was Neiman Marcus in Dallas, North Park. A guy tried on.

[Chase]

I know exactly where that mall is. Okay. Yeah, been there.

[Tom Patterson]

Great, great mall.

[Chase]

It's a great mall. It's beautiful.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah. And at the time, the only way I could really afford to go to Neiman Marcus if I was selling products. So I remember a guy tried our undershirt on. I said, hey, I noticed you're trying these dress shirts on. Tommy John's a new brand. I started, would you be willing to try this on and just let me know what you think? And he tried one undershirt on. He's like, I'll take 18 black and 18 white.

[Chase]

Wow.

[Tom Patterson]

And I was like, okay, this, this can be a lot bigger than I thought. If it's trying is buying. So we. And I would never would have learned that had I not been in the store. So whenever you see people promoting their brands in a Whole Foods or a department store, there is a reason why they're trying to get traction with it and build those relationships.

[Chase]

There's a lot of takeaways there. Right. I think one, your startup self funded and you're spending on packaging when money is constrained. Right. You did something different. So if money wasn't the focus, money was the sole focus, you wouldn't have spent that type of those resources on making the packaging different. That's one, Two, you obviously did a lot of market research on the buying process. And I think three, which is kind of cool, an outline to the market research you did was you actually had buy in from a guy that was there who tried it on and said they liked it. So now you're supporting your market research. You actually have evidence of a male going in there and saying, I want 36 of them. And your packaging is different. At what point did you really start to see momentum shift? So you're in 15 stores in 22,009. At what point did you start to say, okay, I'm on the ground, the packaging's different, the product's there, something's happening. And what did that look like, as far as numbers go?

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, I mean, so we lived in Los Angeles for the first year and a half, and I remember coming back from the factory's home, getting caught in rush hour traffic during the weekdays between my visits. When we were starting getting into these major department stores, I didn't have serious radio subscription podcasts like yours weren't out. Unfortunately, any entrepreneur that's listening, take advantage of podcasts and your show because there's so much to learn. And I wish it would have been available when I was, you know, younger, because I think we'd be farther ahead sooner.

[Chase]

Sure.

[Tom Patterson]

But I'd use that time. And I call the Neiman Marcus stores we weren't in yet and say, hey, I just bought this product in Chicago last weekend. When are you going to have it here in Minneapolis? And I call, I had a list of all the stores, and then I'd have a weekly call at the buyer, and they would be like, hey, Tom, we're getting a lot of calls from these markets that your brand is not in because they're buying it in markets that it is. Do you guys have the inventory. Inventory to go into these locations? And I just real quick, not to

[Chase]

interrupt, just so I understand this, because I love this, by the way. You're calling as a customer.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, Right.

[Chase]

So genius. You got it in sales. You got to do what you got to do, especially when it's you. You're going against these massive corporations with these huge budgets. So as your customer, like, hey, I saw these over here, but they're not here.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, brilliant.

[Chase]

Okay. I just want to clarification.

[Tom Patterson]

And I would say, like, hey, when you get the second skin underwear in, can you please call me? Call me back.

[Chase]

Brilliant.

[Tom Patterson]

You know, my name's Jason. I live in. No, I'm kidding. But yeah, but that's. I had to create the demand, of course. And I knew the product. I just, I was so convicted about what our product could do and what we could, could become because the product walked the talk. But you had to create more opportunities and almost act as if. And. And that's what we did. And that formula really worked. And then I learned that our underwear sold better hanging instead of inside the box, because you could walk by the rack, you could touch and feel it, be like, oh, wow, I want to try that on. And you couldn't always get that experience unless a salesperson was there. And I asked the department store, hey, can we ship our underwear? Not in boxes. And they said, no, it's not allowed. And I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna start doing it. I didn't ask for permission. And then our sales for underwear started doubling each week. And they never really said anything after that. So I think there's a lot of you have to pick and choose when you ask for permission versus ask for forgiveness. Because, you know, even stores are used to doing certain things a certain way. But yeah, I think entrepreneurs, you find a way to create success or you die, you know, so that you got to do what you have to do. In those early days, I love it.

[Chase]

And so what was the first time though, that like you started, you're looking at the P. L. You're seeing the movement happen. You know, your first five years, you and your wife don't take a penny. What year was it that you started to say, wow, like revenue is moving and we're profitable?

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah. I mean first year we did 50,000. Second year we did 250,000.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Wow.

[Tom Patterson]

You know, year, big jump, big jump. A 20, 2011. We're like a 3 million dollar business in New York City. Still couldn't afford office. Our office was our 500 square foot apartment in Chelsea. We had two big mannequins, we had a pull out couch that we watched TV on. 110 pound Bernice Mountain dog, marketing materials, dog hairs on all the samples, lint rollers everywhere. And then we finally got an office about a block away. But our big break was in 2014. We worked with an agency that sent a bunch of our samples out, underwear samples, to athletes, influencers, TV hosts, radio hosts.

[Chase]

2014 too. I mean, let's everyone take a note of that too. As you're thinking about your marketing strategy, you're about 10 years ahead of the curve there. Like the idea of influencers and sending material out to hopefully getting a promo that that wasn't an everyday occurrence from a marketing strategy standpoint.

[Tom Patterson]

So quite brilliant. And I've always been, I've always subscribed to. Any great marketer can sell a product once, but only a great product can sell itself again. And I felt our product was so good it was just a matter of getting it on people's bodies. And one of them was Howard Stern.

[Chase]

Okay.

[Tom Patterson]

I didn't know Howard received it. I was at the Javits center in New York and all of a sudden all these orders start coming in on my phone like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And I called Matt Kreitzer, our head of E Commerce. I'm like, matt, I think we've been hacked. He's like, me. He's like, me, too. We have all this traffic on this site. I'm not sure if it's bots or what. And then at that same time, I got another call in from someone at the Howard Stern show. And she said, howard just talked about your product. He had a question about cool cotton versus second skin. So I explained what the, you know, what makes them different. And it was our best sales day ever. I think we did $40,000 in online sales up until then. Like, $7,000 was our best day. A month later, he talks about it again. We do even more sales. And then in March 2014, someone from Sirius Radio calls. They said, hey, we keep hearing Howard's been talking about your product. He's never talked about a brand this much that's not a paid advertiser. Would you have any interest in advertising? And I'm like, I don't. Why would I advertise? I'm thinking to myself, we're getting free ads. And then said, send me pricing. We'll think about it, and I'll get back to you. And we looked at the pricing and at the time, for one month of advertising on the Howard Stern show, it was the equivalent of almost six months of our entire marketing budget. And I kind of looked at the numbers, and it just felt like this is a moment where we just need to do it. The data may not prove or get everybody comfortable that this is the right decision. It was more just an intuition. And we paid for the. We did it. Started advertising, and we paid for the entire month of advertising in the first 36 hours. We went through six months of inventory in the next 45 days. And it was just like our lightning in the bottle moment. And Howard just became such an evangelist. A couple years ago, he talked about. He sat down as family. He wants to. He designated in his will that he wants to be buried in Tommy John's second skin, Oxer Reefs.

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Tom Patterson]

So, you know, that's craz. Just you don't. You never know who that person's going to be or when it's going to hit. And there's really no way you could have prepared for it. But what you learned is if that moment would have happened a couple years earlier, it might have put us out

[Chase]

of business because you weren't prepared for the scale.

[Tom Patterson]

We didn't have the factory relationships. We didn't have the product, financial planning, inventory planning expertise. Even then, it was really tough to Forecast the demand for it. Because people would sign up for out of stock alert. And every time we would get back in stock, they wouldn't buy just one, they would buy 2.9 units. So we were going through the inventory we thought we needed three times faster. So it was just. We could never catch up. But what we learned was radio, Sirius Radio, which led to podcasts, which was. It was a channel that underwear had never been marketed through, which is your ears, not your eyes looking at packaging, looking at a model in a department store. And it was a channel where we could talk about the problems our product solved. And we focused on three things. Fabric, fit and function. Innovative fabrics that are more breathable, stretchy, a fit that solves problems, and a functionality of undershirts that stay tucked in underwear that doesn't ride up. When we had clever marketing, we found that when your underwear doesn't ride up, you don't get a wedgie. Why don't we just say we have a no wedgie guarantee and we make these bold claims in our advertisements on the radio, give them an incentive to buy and then the product would back up and kind of walk the talk and it would build this loyalty through a channel that had never been marketed. So we found this awesome channel, radio and podcast, really on a whim from Howard. And it led to just a lot of growth, a lot of brand awareness in a really cost efficient way, which led to a lot of retail expansion. And from there, the business went from 4.7 to 11 million to 30 million to 52 million year over year. And along with that, underwear is a really loyal category. Really hard to get guys to change. But man, if they change and they find a product they love, as long as you don't change the fitter quality, you've got a customer for life.

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[Tom Patterson]

So the repeat business in the underwear and undershirt category is great, right? It's very predictable in a lot of ways. So there's a lot that goes in your underwear before you do.

[Chase]

I have a ton of follow up questions to that because it's an unbelievable stories, but you're six years in your biggest and best day ever. 7,000 in sales. Howard Stern does a bit on his show. You don't know he's doing a bit. You then do 40,000 in sales that day. They ask you to do one ad. You tell them, let me think about it. And that cost of that ad on a Howard Stern show is six months of your marketing budget. How much was that ad?

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, it 60,000 for the month.

[Chase]

Okay.

[Tom Patterson]

So. So I believe it was close to $10,000 per one minute read. So we had six one minute reads within a show over those 30 days and before you.

[Chase]

Because I think this is one that that marketers and entrepreneurs really struggle with. You have to analyze that cost to see if you're going to get the return. Are you using the $40k in sales from the one mentioned as your justification to deploy that kind of money?

[Tom Patterson]

Great question. Yeah, I think yes, we looked at the sales, but we could look at the their data, their name, their email address, what they bought. And we found the customers that came in that day came back within weeks to buy more. So the repeat rate, the cohort analysis really proved that they become a loyal high value customer quickly, especially from this channel. And we had Howard's endorsement. Right. And he's spoken not good about brands, but the brands, he is a fanatic and obsessive about it. And I think when the customers buy the products he talks about on the show, they really live up to the claims.

[Chase]

So he.

[Tom Patterson]

He was a very trusted source of brand knowledge. And I think that that was really what gave us the confidence to kind of make a bet. So I wouldn't say it was a carefree, risky bet. It was calculated in a lot of ways based on what we did, but you never really know.

[Chase]

In the 36 hours after that first ad read, for 10,000 per minute, what did your revenue look like?

[Tom Patterson]

Oh, gosh. I mean, I think the first day, the first ad, we did well over a hundred thousand.

[Chase]

Wow.

[Tom Patterson]

In online sales. And he's. I'm so happy this brand's advertising. You know how much I love this product. I can't live without Tommy John. Here's why I love it. And then he talked about how once he wore Tommy John, all these other competitors started sending him products. Of course, here's why we're better than Tommy John here. It's cheaper, better fabrics, blah, blah, blah. He's like, I tried them all, and nothing, nothing compared to Tommy John. And here's why. And that gave us so much conviction and confidence. We can go head to head against anybody because the best product wins.

[Chase]

I'm gonna get back to best product wins. But before I do, I gotta ask you the question. I mean, the guy's gonna be buried in Tommy John. It's in his will. He brings your revenue and changes your businesses completely. Like, did you ever talk to him and sit down about an equity deal?

[Tom Patterson]

You know, I reached out to him. Him and his manager Don, said Howard's not interested in doing any partnerships. I mean, he's making so much money in Sirius Radio. But of course we did. Yeah. I mean, why? Why not? And he said, no. But it didn't really change anything with the relationship. I had the opportunity to go back on the. I went on the show back in, I don't know, 2016 or 17, and we did something where we gave away product and one of the segments. And I had the opportunity to meet him.

[Chase]

You don't catch me as a Howard Stern guy. Yeah, like, Howard Stern list. I can't see, like, every day you're listen to Howard Stern.

[Tom Patterson]

I mean, of course, I grew up watching it on TVs or whatever. I watched his movie. You know, movies are. But, you know, learning about Howard and the way he prepares and gets ready for guests and the level of questioning, it's not luck. And the. What I really appreciated when Howard is he doesn't have people running the sound in the video. He's meticulous about checking everything in the studio before they go on. He's so involved in all the little details. And it's no accident he became what he has become is because he was just so obsessive about it. And I just. Seeing you prepare today, I have so much respect for people because it's not. There's a correlation to preparation and what they do to get to the level they're at, so. And of course, when he started talking about our product, everybody's texting and emailing and we're getting these great reads, and I just became more of a fan, but I didn't live in New York. And arguably he has the most loyal followers. I'm sure all your friends probably listen to him on the regular.

[Chase]

But yeah, I think a good trading secret from there is, let's say, Howard's content, what they talk about on their show. It's for a group of people that absolutely love it. And some people are like, I'm not listening to that content. But I think what's interesting is maybe one thing we should all think about is whether you consume the person's content or you don't, it's really important to look at the person that's achieving outlying success because you can still learn so much from them. And I think, obviously, we know Howard Stern is an industry tycoon in his space and always has been, and I think that's fascinating to kind of learn the behind the scenes. You think Howard Stern, you think in some of his, like, some of the crazy shows that he's done, but you don't think about, wow, he's working the cameras, he's checking the angles, he's meticulous about everything. He's preparing at all time levels. And it's just another good trading secret. Anyone achieving outlying success, no matter what the content it is, there's probably a story or a lesson you can learn from their actions and behaviors, which I think is cool.

[Tom Patterson]

For sure. Just the ability to observe, arguably, greatness. Yes. And be there firsthand. I mean, it's, you know, it's a. Was an amazing experience, for sure.

[Chase]

Okay, we're gonna get to the product here. Shortly before I do, obviously, Howard Stern, change the trajectory of your revenue. Any other big public figures that you have considered working with or during that time you're in discussion with that.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah.

[Chase]

Also potentially had that trajectory.

[Tom Patterson]

Well, I think what we learned is sending our product was the best litmus test if we were going to work with somebody that had a radio show on Sirius or a Podcast. A friend of mine heard Colin Cowherd didn't wear underwear on espn, talked about why he didn't wear underwear. And I sent him some product and said, hey, Colin, we created underwear that doesn't make you feel like you're wearing underwear. And please send me. Sent me a message, I'd love to hear back from you. And gave my number and a note card and a bunch of underwear. And he called back the very next day. He's like, hey, Tom, I love your product. I've never worn anything like this. And having lunch with him, but he talked about the next day. He's like, I got this Tommy John underwear. I feel like a bulletproof politician when I wear this. They create underwear that makes me feel like I'm not wearing underwear. I'm now going to be one of the less than 1% that no longer were wearing. Not wearing underwear. I'm going to start wearing underwear and. But then about in 2015 or 16, someone came up to me in the office, said, hey, Tom, check this out on Instagram. Kevin Hart, the actor comedian's wearing Tommy John dancing around with the shirt off. And we saw our waistband. And I was like, that's awesome. When Kevin was just starting to become big and I was able to get connected to him and send him a bunch of underwear, sent him a note like, hey, man, congrats on your success. I know how hard it is. I've had a similar journey. If you're ever in New York, I'd love to hear from you. And he ended up calling me. He said, hey, man, this is Kevin Hart. Hart. And I'm like, God, it sounds just like Kevin Hart. Maybe this is real him. AI wasn't as big back then, and he said, I'd love to meet and learn more about the business. So he came into the office and he came in with a group of like three or four guys, and he was there for a couple hours. And finally I was like, I don't. We're not looking for a spokesperson.

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Tom Patterson]

Like, I feel like everybody wants to work with a celebrity or athlete, and we don't really have the budget to pay somebody. He's like, I don't want to pay. There's an opportunity for me to invest and become part of the brand. I love the product so much, and I. I'd rather get involved with brands I really believe in and wear and use on a daily basis, and maybe we can do a campaign together and start. So I left that, and I was like, whoa, let me come back with something. That makes sense. And I felt it was so authentic because we're a fun, witty brand. We try not to be too serious with how we market our product. And Kevin, arguably one of the top comedians in the world. It was really on brand for us to work with a comedian and arguably one of the top five most recognized people in Hollywood. And then we got stuck with entertainment lawyers going back and forth on agreements and contracts. And five months later, just reached this point of like, I just called the attorneys he had and I said, look, this is it. You can report to Kevin, we're not doing anything more. This has already been over, over almost six figures in legal fees. And there's no end in sight. The very next day, he was doing this run campaign in Battery Park City with Maria Menounos. Kevin Hart, Maria Menounos. So I called his, his, his manager, Wayne, who had his number. And I said, hey, Wayne, I'm walking down here with my daughter. My daughter was in the carrier, like one year old Violet. And I'm like, I'd love to come by and say hi to Kevin. He was in a trailer right down by the Hudson river there. I walk in, the first thing he says, tom, what's the deal, man? I heard you're costing me all this money with attorneys, you're being difficult to work with.

[Chase]

And I was like, unbelievable.

[Tom Patterson]

I was like, you're joking, right? He's like, man, yeah, I'm sorry it's taken so long. What do we need to do to get this done?

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Tom Patterson]

And I was like, you know what? All you need to do is tell your attorneys everything looks good. And within a week it was done.

[Chase]

Wow.

[Tom Patterson]

And we started working on the campaign and went to la, met with Kevin and started concepting. But you know what? Like, I don't really believe in coincidences. I think that was kind of like a planned opportunity. And it's funny how those things work sometimes. And then that was when Kevin was really active on social media. He's not as active now. Back in 2017, 18, 19, we did a big launch at Macy's. So Kevin, love him, he's a friend. And he was so impactful in our business in those early days for just brand awareness and his scale and platform, wearing our product and moving, doing campaigns and Macy's, he had billboards in Times Square and he was comfortable doing everything. We did YouTube videos, we did a TV commercial together. He spent so much of his own money traveling to these events. And Kevin is who he is. Like, he is him. He's just like a Standup guy. Not perfect, but just genuine. Down to earth and such a big advocate. Forever grateful for Kevin.

[Chase]

It's crazy that you bring in a product, right? And you know, we talk a lot about on this show how much people are getting paid for marketing placement and commercials and things like that. And you create a product that one of the most recognizable names, like you said in Hollywood, isn't coming to you asking for a budget is coming to you for the opportunity to invest in your company. I mean, what an unbelievable position to be in. Before I do want to ask about the product, the last question I got on marketing. When you think about marketing dollars spent, we already talked about 10,000 on a one ad, one minute ad read for Howard Stern. What do you think has been the biggest dollar amount you've ever spent on one campaign?

[Tom Patterson]

Oh, man, one campaign. I mean, I think our marketing budget's so big now, it's close to an eight figure marketing budget right now. It's diversified now. I look at it more as channels. So we have online and with online we have new customer acquisition. It could be meta, Facebook, Instagram, it could be TikTok, it could be billboards, it could be TV ads which you're in right now, you and Katherine, which is going to be awesome. I'm excited for you guys. It could be podcast and direct, direct mail postcards. We've had magazines. It's everything. It's not just one thing. So now we kind of look at it per channel. But it's not atypical for us to spend millions of dollars on one campaign. And if it works, we keep running it, we keep renewing it. We've got a great team that looks at the data and the bi and the intelligence to figure out what the ROI is per channel where, where we pay may pay more for a customer because they fit a profile that's more likely to reorder.

[Chase]

Interesting, because reorder, that's a big piece of this business.

[Tom Patterson]

Repeat business is a big part, but we're not the cheapest. I've never been interested in playing the price game. I think we've always believed dollar for dollar, we provide more value in our product and our quality and our longevity and our functionality than our competitors do do to kind of outrun the saturation from competitors.

[Chase]

Love it.

[Tom Patterson]

And you just, I think anybody that's got a brand or a business, you've got to be authentic. You've got to speak to the problems or, or, or, you know, in a relatable way. We talk about at Tommy John having An approachable swagger. And I think Howard, to go back to Howard, what makes most sense, Howard says it how it is.

[Chase]

Oh yeah.

[Tom Patterson]

He's vulgar, sexual, talks about, about. But he talks about. He, he verbalizes people's thoughts. Correct, Right.

[Chase]

Without a filter.

[Tom Patterson]

Without a filter. So he can say what people think and it resonates. Kevin can do that too. We can do that. We have a unique voice, tone of voice, photography. We don't want to shoot models with no facial expressions. We don't want to be smiling in their home environment, drinking coffee, having dogs. Having dogs. Like real life, life, real situations. Not mowing the lawn in your underwear. Like, like that's kind of weird. No one does that. Or maybe you do and I don't know about it. I don't.

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Tom Patterson]

But all that I think if anybody's listening is just don't be scared to be yourself and be authentic. In the early days, like a lot of the marketing copy was me. It was how I thought translated into what I felt would resonate with more guys that thought like me. And then Howard validated that and Kevin, Val. And you start to attract the people that make sense for the brand and the culture and the emotion you want to have. Connecting with the customer.

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[Chase]

We always go to 12 south in

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[Chase]

It feels like the Product, of course, has evolved and will continue to evolve. And the product is the epicenter of the success. The question I have for you then is as your product is growing 11 and 30 and 50 million, you guys are just blowing up. There has to be some kind of threat that competition is going to come in, study the hell out of your product, like inside and out. Every single meticulous detail. They're going to know it all and try and replicate it. Is there anything that you had to do to reduce that threat, to make something proprietary to Tommy John, whether it's a trademark or something like that, to protect that threat?

[Tom Patterson]

Great question. Imitation's probably the greatest form of flattery in a lot of ways.

[Chase]

Perfectly said.

[Tom Patterson]

I think it validates. You're doing a lot of things right, but I think it's you, you evolve or you dissolve. And we have a utility patent on our undershirt because of the utility of staying tucked in. So anybody that wears an undershirt that's listening, our undershirt stays in place. It's not a girdle. It's designed to not ride up and create this excess fabric. Gut.

[Chase]

And there's a patent on that design?

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, that, that. The design more so the utility of staying tucked in. So we make the claim that it stays in place through a multi directional stretch fabric and a certain chest to waist ratio. It took like seven years to get this patent. So that's very difficult to get in the clothing category. But also, like, we've came out with the lightest underwear ever created. Air underwear. It weighs 2 ounces. You can wash and dry it in the sink, and it dries in two hours or less. That had never been created. So we took fabrics and incorporated them into underwear in ways that have never been done before. So we're continuing to evolve and innovate and give the customer something new and different that's more breathable, it wicks more, it has anti odor. We have a hammock pouch, you know, so, you know, the only thing that should be swinging is your nine irons or tagline with our supportive hammock pouch concept. So if guys want that we have something, we have something for everybody that kind of solves problems. And underwear is the thing that a lot of men suffer in silence. There's these uncomfortable truths, like they adjust themselves. And once you see somebody adjust themselves, you can't unsee it. So we had this TV campaign called no Adjustment Needed that ran in 2016, and it showed guys adjusting from, like, childhood and walking through the halls of middle School to elderly people in an airport, showing that it's a universal epidemic that all men have. And, and so you. You have to be creative with how you market especially and kind of create like a brand and an emotional loyalty to kind of offset a lot of the competition.

[Chase]

Smart. It's genius. I love it. One of the things I want to ask you is, you're growing, you're growing, you're growing. When was the first payday you got? Whether it was, I don't know if you guys worked with private equity or there was some kind of a big investment or some liquidation event, but what happened and what did it look like, your first payday? There was like, oh, my God, it worked.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, we, you know, we did a private equity round in late 2021.

[Chase]

Okay.

[Tom Patterson]

You know, we. We'd been running the business for 13, 13 years at that point and never really had a big financial windfall. So we brought in some great partners that had a lot of industry expertise to grow the business. And this is just right after Covid. But at that point, we really hadn't taken a lot of money off the table. I mean, we made a nice salary, we had a nicer life. We were living in a 1200 square foot apartment in Battery Park. But, you know, New York is an expensive city to live in. You know, what's wealthy in some cities is almost poverty in Manhattan. It just, you know, it doesn't go as far as you think it does. But, yeah, that. That certainly gave us some breathing room and an opportunity to take some meaningful money off the table. But I think, you know, you don't have to raise money if you're patient and you're really building something for the long run. I think we were very conscious about not wanting to give up control of the company to investors or venture capital and having a bunch of suits in the room talking about what we should do. There's so many ways you can, I think, create financing that allows you not to raise money. So, for example, I would fly to factories in China and Egypt and Israel and negotiate better, better pricing versus spending those 20 hours building a PowerPoint to go raise more money and give up more of my company and give up more control. Sure. And by doing that, I would ask for better terms where our money could last longer, stretch longer. We did lines of credit. We did factoring. We factored our POS in the early days where they take a percentage of the purchase order, but allowed us to finance our inventory without giving up part of the company. So I just, just, I had A mentor in the early days said, make sure you have the right margin and build profitability into your business. So if you want to raise money, you can, but you don't have to because you're not going to need to.

[Chase]

Brilliant. In 2021, when you took that, we're talking millions, tens of millions. What did it look. Give me an idea of what that looked like.

[Tom Patterson]

I. I would say it's. It was enough where we don't have to work for a while. Yeah. Or, you know, and if we don't want to. But. But honestly, it wasn't really about the money. Yeah. You know, I think for us, I just wanted to prove we could do something different, something big in the entrepreneurial space. And it's been so cool to build the company alongside my wife with the business in a lot of ways. But don't do something for the money. If you find something that you stand out and you're doing differently and you're passionate about. It's funny how passion leads to money, right?

[Chase]

Perfectly so.

[Tom Patterson]

I'm more impressed with the people that are wealthy doing something they have hate. I don't know how they do it. To live a life where you just going to go. Go to work today. It's so hard to give up this life. But they dislike their work. There's so many ways to make money doing what you love. And I just. Don't cut yourself short. Don't get too comfortable in that. Or just accept it and make it. Make the best out of it. But that was our thing. I never thought in a million years I'd be selling underwear, men's and women's underwear, living in New York. But you just have to find those opportunities and be willing to go all in. And a lot of times you'll find out if you're made for it.

[Chase]

Yeah. A lot of this conversation has been about the success, the trajectory. There's always pushback and downfalls. And I think I listened to an interview this morning about a downfall or just a learning lesson you had in 2018. When I listened to it, I was like, oh, my God. It connected with me well, because the first book that I wrote, the Restart Roadmap, literally the first five pages are me depicting a scenario in which I'm at this big boardroom. CEO, cfo. I'm the youngest one in the room. Biggest pitch in my career. I gotta nail it. I've never missed a pitch in my life. I'm hitting home runs every time I go into a boardroom. And raid is we're about to start the pitch, I was like, is there a bathroom? The CEO was like, excuse me. I was like, I need a bathroom. And he's like, yeah, okay. And I ran down the hallway, went to the bathroom, closed the door, didn't know what was going on, hit the desk, passed right out, no idea what happened. Full panic attack. And so I went home, did some soul searching. And a lot of my book is connected to the soul searching I did as to the why. Why did that moment happen? What else was going on in my life? What was I disassociating with? And it helped me a lot connect with myself and change things in my life. So when I heard the interview you Talking about in 2018, you had some form of a panic attack. You didn't know what it was, but it was a wake up call for you. I wanted to ask you about what that experience was and what you learned from it and how you changed your business mindset moving forward from that.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, it's funny, you find a lot of entrepreneurs that's more common than you think, or athletes or celebrities. And for me at the time, I had two kids under 4 years old. We had just launched our women's business working with Kevin and you could never catch up with all the work. Right. Probably wasn't sleeping or working out like I needed to. And I was in a meeting doing like our weekly business review. And I remember I was like, man, I'm having trouble breathing. Am I having like an allergic reaction? Probably like you did. Yeah. I felt get myself getting really hot and I was like, God, man, my like sweating in front of people. So I just got up and went out and usually our front office receptionist is there. No one was there. I'm like looking around like, man, is this how I'm going to go out? Am I having a heart attack? I couldn't figure out what was going on. I like couldn't get a breath. I almost stuck my finger down my throat and I sat down on a couch and it was like the longest five minutes of my life of this scary. You don't really know what's happening, why it's happening. And I started Googling online later that it was a panic attack. So I changed a lot of things with, you know, sleep, health. Always been into fitness, but putting, I would say, different people in different positions where I wasn't taking it all on and doing all the things and started delegating differently, went deeper in my faith. I started doing ice baths, got really into, you know, cold plunges at the time. And it was. It was just a multitude of those modalities that kind of helped me, I think, deal with just the growth and the stress. And look, I think stress is a blessing in a lot of ways. If you're not growing, you're dying. So I think it's a privilege to have that stress. That means you're doing a lot of things right, but as a leader of the company, you gotta be there. You can't get sick. It's expensive to be sick. It's expensive to be out of the office. And it really kind of changed the perspective on a lot of things with how I. How I led, how I managed, how as a husband and everything. So I look at. I look at it as a good thing now.

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Tom Patterson]

But, yeah, like, insecure. I thought it was like, man, what's wrong?

[Chase]

Sure.

[Tom Patterson]

You know, I'm sure you had similar. Similar thoughts. Did you do anything differently after yours?

[Chase]

Yeah, for me, it was like I had to identify, like, what was the why? Like, what was the why? And what I realized the why was is I felt I was putting so much pressure. I was getting my MBA at the time, so, like you, I had limited sleep. I'm working full time, getting my MBA at night, and I'm exceeding expectations at work. So I'm putting in so much effort. And I started to realize that the way I was doing it was by essentially customizing myself to what everyone else wanted me to be. So at the bank, I was. I looked the way I was supposed to look. I dressed the way I was supposed to dress. I talked the way I was supposed to talk. I acted the way I was supposed to act. I said the vision. I was supposed. Supposed to say it. And I realize I'm way. I'm putting all this weight in my backpack on my shoulders of trying to be what they want me to be, except being myself. And that pressure when it mounts and you're at the core tight, you're good. Like today, I have a lot of weights on my back into my backpack. Things I got to get done before I fall asleep. But I got me this foundation is tight. I can carry that weight. I didn't have that foundation. I started to lose touch with who I was. I didn't really know my identity. I didn't have a core. So the weight just like it crashed in. And I think your body kind of gives you signals, whether it's physically or it's mentally. And I think in business and life and personal situations, financial situations, you gotta listen to those indicators. They tell you A story that's so much greater than what you're seeing.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah. I mean, it's funny, like, I think like a week later, like the day after our 10 year anniversary, such a high, you know, our head of people, my wife and our president sat me down. They're like, you need to leave for a couple weeks. You're not yourself. You're not good to be in the company. And I was like, whoa. It was like one of those interventions, you know, like, wait, I'm actually that guy. I'm the guy right now. It's like, it's like this out of body experience looking at yourself. You're like, dang, that's a tough deal to swallow. And I left for a couple weeks and just said Tom was off and I went surfing and went to California for a week and just relax and rest and did a lot of like self reflection. And I'm so glad that I had people that cared enough about me to have that conversation and they saw it and they were willing to give me the feedback and I probably didn't want to hear.

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Tom Patterson]

But you know, you swallow that pill and you're like, all right, like if, if it's more than one person and they've talked about this before, had a plan before they sat down, like, this is probably necessary. Yeah. But yeah, burnout's a real thing thing. Yeah. It happens to everybody at some point. I don't know if it's avoidable, but I think it's, it can be preventable now because so many people are talking about it.

[Chase]

Yeah. And it seems like in both scenarios here, one common denominator is connection with yourself. Like you obviously took some time, connected with your faith, connected with yourself. And when you get more connected with yourself, all things work out well. Now, Tom, I could talk to you for another four hours. Tom and I had dinner last night for three and a half. But unfortunately, I will not be responsible for you not making your flight. And I got take you to the airport, we're running late. So I could keep this conversation going, but it's been such a pleasure talking to you, learning more about the business and really trying to dissect a little bit of some learning lessons people back at home and entrepreneurs can take in. But we got to wrap with your trading secret. So one trading secret specific to you, we can learn from you and, and likely no one else. What can you leave us with?

[Tom Patterson]

There's so many people that could have been millionaires that were one, yes or way. Right. They were so close. And I think A lot of times when it seems like all the odds are against you, it's those people that make one more call, they make one more visit to a store, they do one overseas trip and they're, and that's their breakthrough moment. And there's been so many highs and lows along the way. And I got used to failure at a long, at an early age. So I knew you could always come back from failure, failure. And I would honestly like play sports. Put yourself out there in environments where you're going to fall flat on your face and have to overcome obstacles and challenges and build it builds resilience, builds character. And I think that's part about being an entrepreneur is if you want certainty and predictability, being an entrepreneur is probably not for you. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with that. The crazy ones are entrepreneurs in a lot of ways. And it's, it's volatile, it's uncertain, it's going to be twice as hard, it's going to take 10 times longer than you thought. But it's worth it. I love it. It's totally worth it. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't change a thing. It's been such a fun journey and such a fun business and the people we've been able to work with and you know, meet, be a part of, it's one of the coolest things and it's, it's what makes America great. Love it or hate it, capitalism create, it's built this country being entrepreneurs. They create jobs, they create livelihoods. It's a big responsibility, especially when your company gets bigger. But man, just like go for it. You're never going to be ready, you're never going to be prepared. All the stoplights aren't going to be green. You know, you just got to go.

[Chase]

I love it. You just got to go. So many trading secrets here today, guys. Stay tuned to the recap. I'll tell you what my biggest trading secret was from this episode and David and I will talk about all the curiosities he has. But Tom, thank you so much for being on Trading Secrets. Guys. If you haven't seen it, go check out this commercial. Go see Tommy John on of course their website and their social media. Katherine and I are there. And a massive thank you to Tommy John for also contributing to Wags and Walks which is a Non for profit 501c3 that is rescuing thousands and thousands of dogs every year. So Tom, thank you for being on Trade Secrets. Where can everyone find everything you have going on or anything related to Tommy John.

[Tom Patterson]

Yeah, I'm not very active on Instagram. I am Tom Patterson and it's my personal Tommy John. Tommy John wears our instagram handle and tommyjohn.com Very cool.

[Chase]

Tom. Let's get you to the airport. Thank you for being on Trading Secrets.

[Tom Patterson]

All right, thanks, Chase. Great beer.

[Chase]

Making that money money rain on me

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[Tom Patterson]

Making that money money rain on me Making that money Living that dream.

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